Are We Engaged in a Life-Saving Preaching Work?

Comment by robcrompton on 2014-04-23 08:19:35

Meleti, could you clarify something for me, please? When I was a JW (I left in the mid 60s) we believed that all who heard but failed to respond to the message would either die at Armageddon or not be resurrected. I have recently heard it said by JWs that all who die before Armageddon will be resurrected and given their chance and I had assumed that this was a misunderstanding based upon wishful thinking or basic individual decency.
Has there been a change? And what do you believe is the position of those who hear, respond, and then, thinking there is too much wrong with the WTS, leave and continue life as unbelievers?
As an aside, Russell believed that none who were not members of the "Little Flock" had sufficient light of the holy spirit to make a proper choice and therefore Armageddon, for him, was to involve the destruction only of the institutions of church and state. He believed that even those who died during Armageddon would be resurrected and given their chance.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-23 20:28:45

  My understanding from back in the 60s was that those who died before Armageddon would be resurrected, but those who God killed himself at Armageddon would not. Can't say if that was ever explicitly expressed in the publications or not, but it was what I was taught.
  I don't believe that has changed officially, but more and more witnesses are having trouble with the idea of a God who would destroy everyone on earth simply because they never had the opportunity to accept the message.

• Reply by KeepOnSeeking on 2014-04-23 21:51:37

  Rob, you may be referring to this from the July 15, 2013 Watchtower (p. 6-7, par. 10-13):
  WHEN DOES JESUS JUDGE THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS?
  10 Consider now the timing of another part of Jesus’ prophecy—the parable of the judgment of the sheep and the goats. (Matt. 25:31-46) Previously, we thought that the judging of people as sheep or goats would take place during the entire period of the last days from 1914 onward. We concluded that those who rejected the Kingdom message and who died before the start of the great tribulation would die as goats—without the hope of a resurrection.
  11 In the mid-1990’s, The Watchtower reexamined Matthew 25:31, which states: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.” It was noted that Jesus became King of God’s Kingdom in 1914, but he did not “sit down on his glorious throne” as Judge of “all the nations.” (Matt. 25: 32; compare Daniel 7:13.) However, the parable of the sheep and the goats describes Jesus primarily as Judge. (Read Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46.) Since Jesus was not yet active as Judge of all nations in 1914, his judgment of people as sheep or goats could not have started in that year.[3] When, then, will Jesus’ judgment begin?
  12 Jesus’ prophecy about the last days reveals that he will for the very first time act as Judge of all nations after the destruction of false religion. As mentioned in paragraph 8, some of the events that will occur during that time are recorded at Matthew 24:30, 31. When you examine those verses, you will note that Jesus there foretells events that are similar to the ones he mentions in the parable of the sheep and the goats. For example, the Son of man comes with glory and with angels; all tribes and nations are gathered; those judged as sheep “lift [their] heads up” because “everlasting life” awaits them.[4] Those judged as goats “beat themselves in lamentation,” realizing that “everlasting cutting-off” awaits them.—Matt. 25:31-33, 46.
  13 So, then, what can we conclude? Jesus will judge people of all nations as sheep or goats when he comes during the great tribulation. Then, at Armageddon, the climax of the great tribulation, the goatlike ones will be ‘cut off’ forever. How does that understanding affect our view of our ministry? It helps us to see how important our preaching work is. Until the great tribulation begins, people still have time to change their thinking and start walking on the cramped road “leading off into life.” (Matt. 7:13, 14) To be sure, people may now display a sheeplike or a goatlike disposition. Nevertheless, we should remember that the final judgment of who are sheep and who are goats is during the great tribulation. Therefore, we have good reason for continuing to offer as many people as possible the opportunity to listen to and respond to the Kingdom message.

  • Reply by on 2014-04-24 11:19:50

    One problem I see with the WT quote above is in paragraph 12:
    "Jesus’ prophecy about the last days reveals that he will for the very first time act as Judge of all nations after the destruction of false religion."
    I wonder how they arrive at such a specific conclusion. Compare with this:
    (2 Thessalonians 2:8 NWT) . . .Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.
    Jesus is described as an 'acting judge' here. This would be before the 'battle of Armageddon.' It would include the entire great tribulation.
    Bobcat

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-24 11:32:15

      Hmm, a problem with a Watchtower quote. How odd! :)

Comment by menrov on 2014-04-23 08:27:12

Thanks Meleti, and I agree. Lately when I preach, I hardly ever use the magazines but simply my bible and use a verse that emphazise the role of Jesus. It gives me a good feeling to tell people about Jesus. If the person already believes in Jesus, I show that I am pleased to hear and supports that person to continue to learn more about Jesus. Not sure how long it will take before some will start to ask questions about my way of preaching but so be it.
Regarding question from Robcrompton, I disagree with the statement that when someone leaver the WBTS that person lives as an unbeliever. That is JW talk, not biblical. There are millions of believers in the world that are not JW.

• Reply by robcrompton on 2014-04-23 08:35:10

  Thanks, Menrov, but I meant specifically unbelievers in WT teachings - as many leaving the WT undoubtedly are.

  • Reply by menrov on 2014-04-23 08:36:24

    Thanks for the clarification. And yes, I agree with that completely.

Comment by on 2014-04-23 08:32:23

The preaching work the Governing Body leads is broken.
1. The message is wrong.
2. The literature left in the field is a waste of time and money.
3. No One, I repeat, No One is being led to Christ. They are being led to men.
4. The hours counted are like the fringes on the garments in the first century...a way of "looking" righteous and it becomes a stumbling to the friends.
5. I could go on but my stomach will not allow it.
When I go in the field I do so for only one reason: to support the friends who are like sheep tossed about and not to make more disciples for the Governing Body.
Daytona

• Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2014-04-23 11:35:33

  "The hours counted are like the fringes on the garments in the first century…a way of “looking” righteous and it becomes a stumbling to the friends. "
  Exactly!!!

• Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-04-25 02:02:28

  Daytona,
  You better keep doing that because I'm one of them that needs that encouragement brother.
  Thanks for percervering for the likes of me.
  Sis thinking

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-04-23 09:47:38

Hi Rob!
Excellent question "And what do you believe is the position of those who hear, respond, and then, thinking there is too much wrong with the WTS, leave and continue life as unbelievers?"
I cannot answer for Meleti, but I believe that if one leaves the WTS for thinking their teachings are not the same that the Bible teaches, they are only unbelievers in the WTS literature or teachings. They most certainly still can be believers in God's word the Bible.
They can acknowledge that Jehovah is our Heavenly Father and Creator and that Jesus, his only-begotten son, is our King, our Redeemer and our only Savior.
I read something on the discussion board recently that I have come to appreciate and that actually cleared up some confusion I had. The Governing Body would have us believe that we can bypass Jesus and get Salvation directly from Jehovah. But Jehovah has turned that work over to Jesus, meaning our only way to salvation is through Jesus, not Jehovah.
If we believe in Jesus, we are true Christians, or followers of Christ, no matter where we are in this world. Following Jesus two commandments, Love God with your whole heart, soul and mind, and the second is to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Some call that second commandment, The Golden Rule, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Matthew 22:36-40 "36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
New International Version (NIV) Also Matthew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
New International Version (NIV)
There have been a lot of changes since the 1960's. Between Meleti's fine articles and the discussion board, there are many Bible truths to learn, or relearn, and discuss.

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-23 16:49:18

  What I love most is the question asked of Jesus after, i.e., "Who is my neighbor?" and Jesus choice answer in Luke 10:29-35 . . . that little story of the most hated of all neighbors of the Jewish hierarchy? Recall Jesus final question: "Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man that fell among the robbers?” The man couldn't even utter "Samaritan" but said instead, “The one that acted mercifully toward him.”
  Now think of our teaching that all who live outside of our religious stronghold are deserving to die. Will history not repeat itself? I believe it will.

  • Reply by brendaevans32 on 2014-04-24 09:35:13

    It is quite interesting that in English Law (I love this application in caselaw when I studied the subject at college), Lord Atkin made use of this lovely commandment which Jesus shared and taught us. Lord Atkin asked, "Who then is my neighbour?" Paraphrasing his answer, he replied: Anyone who is closely or directly affected by my act (or omission to act (when I should have acted), who I should have thought could be affected. This entails not only thinking that my act is capable of affecting another person but it does actually affect them.
    Taking this further, particularly those who are more "in the know", then we should always carefully plan and develop our own understanding about a subject before giving it out to the people - particularly those who may be more goatlike. We have to tread careful. How do we do this?
    We pray.
    We ask for guidance from Jehovah. We look to His lovely Son for His brilliant example. We love Jehovah. We love Jesus. We love one another. This means taking in sound and accurate knowledge.
    Where do we get such knowledge? As many contributors and those who minister this great website, we get this from the Bible. Really reading, chewing over, think, and think again, chew over again, the words that have been faithfully recorded so that we may read and learn.
    I am not a JW, I didn't get that far. I came quite close to it. All I wanted to do was to get out on the Ministry to share what I was learning. But it probably wasn't of the same ilk, standard and knowledge of anyone who I could have gone out with - it was just my little bit of understanding. What I was equipped with, was this lovely warm and powerful feeling of just wanting to share the love Jesus shared with us, and that salvation is through Jesus, and that the way to Jehovah is through Jesus (thinking of some of the things Jesus said). I just wanted folk to know how they could approach Jehovah, how they could see who Jesus is, and how to help themselves through what hardships they may have had. My word, Jehovah has helped me something bigtime since 2008 since our youngest son fell asleep. I wanted to share this promise.
    I am glad now that I didn't make it out on the Ministry. I am just doing my own little bit on a weekly basis, trying to share different little portions of Scriptures with friends, and applying them in our everyday lives. Those wise words we read are just as contemporary and full of meaning now, as when they were first shared with us.
    Some of the message that Jesus shared, in the Good News of the drawing near of the Kingdom has been linked with Armageddon. Only Jehovah will know this significance. As I read the Scriptures, and read the words Good News, I think about the love, care and peaceful relief that Jesus brought. You can almost hear His voice and His tones as He speaks and teaches the Good News. I often melt into those words He says.
    So, following on Meleti, we do have great, Good News that we can share. We can share about the love Jehovah and Jesus have for us; that They can and do help us so very much, and how easy it is to love Them for who They are.

Comment by Samaritan Woman on 2014-04-23 11:34:30

I have never liked the field ministry much, despite the fact I served as a pioneer. My best return visits and conversations happened when only the bible was used. One of my return visits refused to use publications and insisted we only use the bible, thinking back I have her to thank for helping the scales to fall off my eyes so to speak. The purpose of Jesus coming to earth is beautifully summed up in Isaiah 61:1 “The spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom to the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners."
This is the only message we need to preach and it the anwser to all problems, personal or otherwise. This is what the ministry of Jesus does and our love for him should compel us to share it with others. For me at least, offering the latest publication has never done that.

Comment by Alex Rover on 2014-04-23 16:58:44

I blame spell check on grammatical laziness.

• Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2014-04-23 17:13:56

  Touché.

• Reply by menrov on 2014-04-24 08:03:41

  My problem: I think much faster than I type :-) :-)

Comment by erick on 2014-04-23 19:35:55

I think probably most JWs already recognize subconsciously that they are not engaged in a life saving preaching work. This fact however would be denied vigorously.
For instance when I was teenager a veteran pioneer introduced me to the "pioneer shuffle" a slow leisurely stroll meant to eat up time between doors. If this brother had truly believed in his heart of hearts that he was in a life saving work he would not have been wasting time. There are many other ways that time is wasted out in field service.
The GB doesn't even truly believe it. Otherwise they would be putting up billboards, paying for radio time, television time, flooding the internet. But no, everything is done very routinely as if they were selling vacuum cleaners. How else can it be explained that after preaching for many decades the people in the territory have no idea of what JWs basic message is about?

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-24 06:25:27

  " How else can it be explained that after preaching for many decades the people in the territory have no idea of what JWs basic message is about?"
  I believe every single publisher /pioneer can attest to this.....in all my years of preaching householders consistently believe one thing.... We do not believe in Jesus. That was my biggest pet peeve until recently. I understand now why people may believe that.What other Christian religion gets accused of not believe in Jesus?? We only use Jesus as "bait" to convert people into our religion.

Comment by search4truth on 2014-04-23 21:56:25

1 Cor 15:1-4 (NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you have received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
1 Tim 4:1-3,6-7 (Phi) God's Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of demons, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh... You will be a faithful minister of Christ Jesus if you remind your church members of these things. You will show yourself as a man nourished by the message of the true faith and the sound teaching he has followed. But steer clear of all these heathen old wives' tales. 2 Pet 2:1-3 (NIV) But there were false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies... Many will follow their shameful ways and bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.
Message preached by Jw - doomsday anytime soon , 1914, paradise for Jw only, overlaping generation, 1919/18 slave appointment, obedience to the mother organization, two class christians, shun your brother ,etc. The bible message is a beatifull message that makes me fell free and grateful to the our God and his son for his ransom sacrifice. Love is the motive to do right things in my live and not fear. Watchtower message makes me depressed.

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-24 06:16:07

  "Message preached by Jw – doomsday anytime soon , 1914, paradise for Jw only, overlaping generation, 1919/18 slave appointment, obedience to the mother organization, two class christians, shun your brother ,etc. The bible message is a beatifull message that makes me fell free and grateful to the our God and his son for his ransom sacrifice. Love is the motive to do right things in my live and not fear. Watchtower message makes me depressed."
  When you list out our false doctrines like that... How in the world do we have the audacity to point the finger at christendom??

Comment by Christian on 2014-04-24 03:56:50

"But no, everything is done very routinely as if they were selling vacuum cleaners"
I needed a laugh and that really made me laugh:)

Comment by Anjinsan on 2014-04-24 06:33:16

I love preaching. But I don't love counting time. Counting time especially for those in the full time ministry can tilt the balance to quantity rather than quality.

Comment by gogetter60 on 2014-04-24 07:53:07

Great comments! I agree and have I felt the same way about "our" ministry for many years and despise the counting of FS time.(if we are going to report time, report actual time spent talking to people-that would be more accurate)
If the GB really took the preaching work seriously as a life saving mission,modern communication technology would have been incorporated a long time ago to reach people.
We can see printing of books and magazines is about extinct everywhere, and the door to door work is so ineffective as no one is ever home.(just look at hours worldwide to growth ratio) This is not to say it does not have a place and frankly I always loved door to door talking to people about the Bible it did give me a sense of following Jesus footsteps.
There is some signs that the GB finally gets this with their new focus on the jw.org site and the reported "hits" and request for bible studies they have finally come to understand "if you can't beat em join em" realizing that is where people and publishers spend their time learning.
But as stated above why not use the mass media and social networking tools everyone young and old are practically forced to use in today's society to reach the truly interested and then have the local congregation followup with personal contact?
If the GB is so secure with the "Truth" why not use TV-radio-webinars to reach the masses with the urgent life saving message, it's not like they can't afford it and the 8 million JW's would certainly contribute to this.
These of course are rhetorical questions as we all know the answer.
here's a couple of mine,
1) FS is used as a control method to monitor R&F
"loyalty"
2) The end is nowhere in sight so what's the hurry in reaching the masses!
Now back to focusing on the building of the GB Warwick resort!
PS: someone should start a topic on why all of us stay in this organization

• Reply by menrov on 2014-04-24 08:03:05

  Using modern media is good but let's be realistic: "selling" jw.org is not the message Jesus had in mind.
  I agree that modern tools should be used to speak about the real message, not to draw people to the organisation or to JW.org.
  I very much disapprove the planned campaign in AUgust to distribute sheets to promote JW.org.

  • Reply by on 2014-04-24 09:28:36

    Yes. Not jw.org but Jesus:
    2. Cor. 4:5
    For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

  • Reply by on 2014-04-24 14:43:08

    I agree with you, menrov. The GB wants all the Elders to get "fired up" about this Corporate campaign and pioneer. I'll never do it!

  • Reply by search4truth on 2014-04-25 11:35:34

    There is an article in April KM about using recorded message on the Jw.org and playing it to the householder in the ministry. It reminds me of the gramophones records with the Rutherford speeches back in the early 19 century , only difference is that we use iPhone or any other mobile device but the method is same. As far as August campaign is concern it's nothing else but advertising Wt and not the Bible message and for this reason I am not going to participate in this.

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-24 09:10:27

  “If the GB is so secure with the “Truth” why not use TV-radio-webinars to reach the masses with the urgent life saving message, it’s not like they can’t afford it and the 8 million JW’s would certainly contribute to this. cents :)”
  What you have described would be effective and it is really just a modern version of the early methods that the Russelites/Bible students employed…..

• Reply by on 2014-04-24 14:39:01

  And wait until you hear how the Kingdom Hall loan arrrangement is going to change in the next couple of months!

Comment by menrov on 2014-04-24 11:45:53

Just wondering: Jesus said that this GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM will be preached. Let's just say for sake of argument that Jesus was referring to our time. the message He had in mind was GOOD NEWS. Nowhere do we read that the apostles had to tell people to escape to the mountains when the end comes.
From that perspective, the good news was to give hope to people, a future to look forward to. If it would be a life saving work, we all would be prophets as prophets were assigned by God to tell (specific) people what Jehovah was about to do and how they could avoid this. That was not the case with Noah as the ark was only for him and his family. But it was the case with Jona for example.
We are not prophets. If you want, we can be considered messengers but more as pass through as the message is already available. We are merely pointing people to the word of God and the good news in it.
By claiming it is a life saving work, you are actually address (abusing) the conscience of the millions in the organisation that will feel guilty when they believe they do not do enough, because they are old, ill, have other responsibilities or like to have spare time. It is a clever way to control its members.

Comment by robcrompton on 2014-04-24 16:35:27

Thanks, all, for your responses to my question.

Comment by on 2014-04-25 03:21:46

Meleti, I think it's shocking that they have applied Ezekiel 3 v18 to the millions of brothers and sisters today . Ezekiel was a man who was directly appointed by god to express gods judgements many of whom he saw by supernatural visions he would have had no doubts at all that he had God's spirit and his backing. To say that it applies today brings a weighty and shocking responsibility to every JW many of whom Are young and should not be under that type of pressure That can lead to terrible problems with stress and anxiety. It's extreme kev