[This post is a follow-up to last week’s discussion: Are We Apostates?]
“The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore throw off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light.” (Romans 13:12 NWT)
“Authority is the greatest and most irreconcilable enemy to truth and argument that this world ever furnished. All the sophistry—all the color of plausibility—the artifice and cunning of the subtlest disputer in the world may be laid open and turned to the advantage of that very truth which they are designed to hide; but against authority there is no defence.” (18th Century Scholar Bishop Benjamin Hoadley)
Every form of government that has ever existed consists of three key elements: legislative, judicial, and executive. The legislative makes the laws; the judicial upholds and applies them, while the executive enforces them. In less wicked forms of human government, these three are kept separate. In a true monarchy, or a dictatorship (which is just a monarchy without a good PR firm) the legislative and the judicial are often combined into one. But no monarch or dictator is powerful enough to encompass the executive all by himself. He needs those who act for him to execute justice—or injustice, as the case may be—so as to preserve his power. This is not to say that a democracy or a republic is free of such abuses of power. Quite the contrary. Nevertheless, the smaller and tighter the powerbase, the less accountability there is. A dictator does not have to justify his actions to his people. Bishop Hoadley’s words are as true today as they were centuries ago: “Against authority there is no defence.”
At the fundamental level, there are really only two forms of government. Government by the creation and government by the Creator. For created things to govern, be they man or the invisible spirit forces using man as their front, there must be the power to punish dissenters. Such governments use fear, intimidation, coercion, and enticement to hold onto and grow their authority. By contrast, the Creator already has all the power and all the authority, and it cannot be taken from him. Yet, he uses none of the tactics of his rebellious creatures to rule. He bases his rulership on love. Which of the two do you prefer? Which do you vote for by your conduct and life course?
Since creatures are very insecure about their power and always fearful that it will be stripped from them, they use many tactics to hold on to it. One of the foremost, used both secularly and religiously, is the claim to divine appointment. If they can fool us into believing that they speak for God, the ultimate power and authority, it will be easier for them to maintain control; and so it has proven down through the ages. (See 2 Cor. 11:14, 15) They may even compare themselves to other men who truly ruled in the name of God. Men like Moses, for instance. But do not be fooled. Moses had real credentials. For instance, he exercised the power of God through ten plagues and the splitting of the Red Sea by which the world power of the day was defeated. Today, those who would compare themselves to Moses as God’s channel might point to similar awe-inspiring credentials such as being freed from prison after a grueling nine months of suffering. The equivalency of that comparison fairly leaps off the page, does it not?
However, let us not overlook another key element to Moses’ divine appointment: He was held accountable by God for his words and deeds. When Moses acted wrongly and sinned, he had to answer to God. (De 32:50-52) In short, his power and authority were never abused, and when he strayed he was immediately disciplined. He was held accountable. Similar accountability will be evident in any humans today who hold a similar divinely-appointed office. When they stray, mislead, or teach falsehood, they will acknowledge this and humbly apologize. There was an individual like this. He had the credentials of Moses in that he performed even more miraculous works. Though he was never punished by God for sin, that was merely because he never sinned. However, he was humble and approachable and never misled his people with false teachings and false expectations. This one is also still alive. With such a living leader carrying the endorsement of Jehovah God, we have no need of human rulers, do we? Yet they persist and continue to claim divine authority under God and with token acknowledgement to the one just described, Jesus Christ.
These ones have perverted the way of the Christ to gain power for themselves; and to keep it, they have used the time-honored means of all human government, the big stick. They appeared around the time the apostles died off. As years went by, they progressed to the point that some of the worst human rights abuses can be attributed to them. The extremes during the darkest days of Roman Catholicism are part of history now, but they are not alone in employing such methods for maintaining power.
It has been hundreds of years since the Catholic Church has had unfettered power to imprison and even execute any who dared to challenge its authority. Still, into recent times, it has kept one weapon in its arsenal. Consider this from Awake January 8, 1947, Pg. 27, “Are You Also Excommunicated?”[i]
“The authority for excommunication, they claim, is based on the teachings of Christ and the apostles, as found in the following scriptures: Matthew 18:15-18; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5; Galatians 1:8,9; 1 Timothy 1:20; Titus 3:10. But the Hierarchy’s excommunication, as a punishment and “medicinal” remedy (Catholic Encyclopedia), finds no support in these scriptures. In fact, it is altogether foreign to Bible teachings.—Hebrews 10:26-31. … Thereafter, as the pretensions of the Hierarchy increased, the weapon of excommunication became the instrument by which the clergy attained a combination of ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny that finds no parallel in history. Princes and potentates that opposed the dictates of the Vatican were speedily impaled on the tines of excommunication and hung over persecution fires.” –[Boldface added]
The church held secret trails in which the accused was denied access to counsel, public observers and witnesses. Judgment was summary and unilateral, and the members of the church were expected to support the decision of the clergy or suffer the same fate as the excommunicated one.
We rightly condemned this practice in 1947 and correctly labelled it a weapon which was used to quell rebellion and preserve the power of the clergy through fear and intimidation. We also correctly showed that it has no support in Scripture and that the scriptures used to justify it were actually being misapplied for evil ends.
All this we said and taught just after the war ended, but scarcely five years later, we instituted something very similar which we called disfellowshipping. (Like “excommunication”, this is not a Biblical term.) As this process developed and was refined, it took on virtually all the characteristics of the very practice of Catholic excommunication we had so roundly condemned. We now have our own secret trials wherein the accused is denied defense counsel, observers and witnesses of his own. We are required to abide by the decision our clergy has reached in these closed sessions even though we know no details, not even the accusation brought against our brother. If we do not honor the decision of the elders, we too can face the fate of disfellowshipping.
Truly, disfellowshipping is nothing more than Catholic excommunication by another name. If it was unscriptural then, how could it be scriptural now? If it was a weapon then, is it not a weapon now?
Is Disfellowshipping/Excommunication Scriptural?
The Scriptures upon which the Catholics base their policy of excommunication and we as Jehovah’s Witnesses base ours of disfellowshipping are: Matthew 18:15-18; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5; Galatians 1:8,9; 1 Timothy 1:20; Titus 3:10; 2 John 9-11. We have dealt with this topic in depth on this site under the category of Judicial Matters. One fact that will become evident if you read through those posts is that there is no basis in the Bible for the Catholic practice of excommunication nor the JW practice of disfellowshipping. The Bible leaves it up to the individual to properly treat the fornicator, idolater, or apostate by avoiding inappropriate contact with such a one. It is not an institutional practice in Scripture and the determination and subsequent labeling of the individual by secret committee is alien to Christianity. Simply put, it is a misuse of power to stifle any perceived threat to the authority of man.
A 1980 Turn for the Worse
Initially, the disfellowshipping process was principally intended to keep the congregation clean from practicing sinners so as to maintain the sanctity of Jehovah’s name which we now carried. This shows how one wrong decision can lead to another, and how doing the wrong thing with the best of intentions is always doomed to bring heartache and ultimately God’s disapproval.
Having gone against our own counsel and adopted this reprehensible Catholic weapon, we were poised to complete the imitation of our most condemned rival when, by the 1980s, the recently formed powerbase of the Governing Body felt threatened. This was the time when prominent members of the Bethel family began to question some of our core doctrines. Of particular concern must have been the fact that these questionings were based solidly on Scripture, and could not be answered or defeated using the Bible. There were two courses of action open to the Governing Body. One was to accept the newly discovered truths and alter our teaching to come more in line with divine authority. The other was to do what the Catholic Church had done for centuries and silence the voices of reason and truth using the power of authority against which there is no defense. (Well, not human defense, at least.) Our chief weapon was that of excommunication—or if you prefer, disfellowshipping.
Apostasy is defined in Scripture as a turning away from God and Christ, a teaching of falsehoods and of a different good news. The apostate exalts himself and makes of himself a God. (2 Jo 9, 10; Ga 1:7-9; 2 Th 2:3,4) Apostasy is neither good nor bad in and of itself. It literally means “a standing away from” and if the thing from which you are standing away is false religion, then technically, you are an apostate, but that’s the kind of apostate that finds God’s approval. Nevertheless, to the uncritical mind, apostasy is a bad thing, so labeling someone “an apostate” makes them into a bad person. The unthinking will simply accept the label and treat the person as they have been taught to do.
However, these ones were not actually apostates as defined in the Bible. So we had to play a little jiggery-pokery with the word and say, “Well, it’s wrong to disagree with what God teaches. That’s apostasy, plain and simple. I am God’s channel of communication. I teach what God teaches. So it’s wrong to disagree with me. If you disagree with me, you must therefore be an apostate.”
That still wasn’t enough however, because these individuals were being respectful of the feelings of others which is not a characteristic of apostates. One cannot envision the ultimate apostate, Satan the Devil, being respectful of others’ feelings. Using only the Bible, they were helping truth seekers to get a better understanding of Scripture. This was no in-your-face sectarianism, but a dignified and gentle attempt to use the Bible as a weapon of light. (Ro 13:12) The idea of a “quiet apostate” was a bit of a dilemma for the nascent Governing Body. They resolved it by redefining the meaning of the word still further to give them the appearance of just cause. To do this, they had to change God’s law. (Da 7:25) The result was a letter dated 1 September, 1980 directed to the traveling overseers which clarified statements just made in The Watchtower. This is the key excerpt from that letter:
“Keep in mind that to be disfellowshipped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1, 1980, Watchtower, “The word ‘apostasy’ comes from a Greek term that means ‘a standing away from,’ ‘a falling away, defection,’ ‘rebellion, abandonment. Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostatizing. Extended, kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the ‘slave class, the appropriate judicial action should be taken.
So just thinking the Governing Body was wrong about something now constituted apostasy. If you are thinking, “That was then; this is now”, you may not realize that this mentality has, if anything, become more entrenched than ever. In the 2012 district convention we were told that just thinking the Governing Body was wrong about some teaching was tantamount to testing Jehovah in your heart as the sinful Israelites did in the wilderness. In the 2013 circuit assembly program we were told that to have oneness of mind, we must think in agreement and not “harbor ideas contrary to…our publications”.
Imagine being disfellowshipped, totally cut off from all family and friends, just for holding an idea that differs from what the Governing Body is teaching. In George Orwell’s dystopian novel 1984 a privileged Inner Party elite persecuted all individualism and independent thinking, labeling them Thoughtcrimes. How tragic that a worldly novelist attacking the political establishment he saw developing following the Second World War should hit so close to home regarding our current judicial practices.
In summary
From the foregoing it is evident that the actions of the Governing Body in dealing with those who disagree—not with Scripture, but with their interpretation of it—parallel the Catholic hierarchy of the past. The present Catholic leadership is far more tolerant of dissenting views than its predecessors; so we now have the ignoble distinction of going the Church one better—or one worse. Our own publications condemn us, for we condemned the Catholic practice of excommunication and then set about implementing an exact copy of it for our own purposes. In doing this, we have implemented the pattern of all human rulership. We have a legislature—the Governing Body—which makes laws of our own. We have a Judicial branch of government in the traveling overseers and local elders who enforce those laws. And finally, we execute our version of justice by the power to cut people off from family, friends and the congregation itself.
It is easy to cast blame on the Governing Body for this, but if we support this policy by blind obedience to the rulership of men, or out of fear that we too might suffer, then we are complicit before the Christ, the appointed judge all mankind. Let us not fool ourselves. When Peter spoke to the crowd at Pentecost he told them that they, not just the Jewish leaders, had executed Jesus on a stake. (Acts 2:36) At hearing this, “they were stabbed to the heart…” (Acts 2:37) Like them, we can repent for past sins, but what of the future? With the knowledge we know have, can we get off scot-free if we continue to help men wield this weapon of darkness?
Let us not hide behind transparent excuses. We have become what we have long disdained and condemned: A human rulership. All human rulership stands in opposition to God. Invariably, this has been the final outcome of all organized religion.
How this present, lamentable state of affairs developed from a people that started out with such noble ideals will be the subject of another post.
[i] A tip of the hat to “BeenMislead” whose thoughtful comment brought this gem to our attention.
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Excommunication aka Disfellowshipping aka Cherem is in the Bible!! John 16:2 (ASV) says “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.” Notice Jesus Christ condemned this act as being done to his faithful followers by their mislead leaders!! And how vicious a thing it really is: “Put you out of Synagogue” is the modern Bible translator’s interpretation of the Greek word APOSUNAGOGOS. Strong’s Concordance: Aposunagógos: expelled from the congregation Original Word: ἀποσυνάγωγος, ον Transliteration: aposunagógos Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-oon-ag’-o-gos) Definition: expelled from the congregation Usage:… Read more »
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John Dalberg-Acton said : “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” This is of course quite true but another and more sobering facet of this thought comes from an other writer : those desiring power are corruptible and desiring absolute power are absolutely corruptible. Since religion has enormous power we should be very careful about any who reach for that power: Satan is the foremost example.
Only God and his appointed ruler Jesus can not be corrupted as power is there natural possession. Rev 4:11
Nicely explained, Maxwell. I found it interesting that Paul says, at 1 Cor. 3:9, “in my previous letter”. So, it appears that 1 Corinthians is actually his second letter written to this particular congregation. So, would you say it’s possible they wanted clarification of what was in the “previous” letter?
wonderful post sister imacourntrygirl.
Anonymous, I appreciate your sincere and heartfelt comments. I share your outrage at the way the “donation” policy was so easily set up, whether it made any sense from a logical human standpoint or not. I know only too well how you must be feeling. In time, you will come to appreciate what real freedom you can have when you no longer allow yourself to be controlled by a group of men who claim to speak for God himself and who seem to so easily disregard our true Saviour, Jesus. If I may, I would like to suggest a book… Read more »
I’d like to thank Meleiti and Maxwell for their insightful comments and sound reasoning. I am no longer serving as an Elder. The “donation” policy was the nail in the coffin for me. The Elders in my congregation sent the Branch quite a few thousands of dollars and the R&F had about 10 minutes to chew on the logic during a local needs part. It was first announced that our loan was “forgiven”, and everybody, (excluding myself) clapped. I then raised my hand and said that we would still be paying the same montly amount in perptuity, (forever). The brother… Read more »
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BeenMislead, Thank you for the information from Shepherd the Flock of God book – good to know this.
I hope I do not cause anyone to be unnecessarily agitated by the following comment….. “I need to say that when I became involved with the group, I assumed that all were on the same page “ This seems to be a recurring theme in the last few weeks. Are those who read Meleti’s and Apollos’ works on this site (Beroean Pickets~ Striving for unbiased Bible research) or participate in the DTT Board considered part of a group? The people that visit this site…. do they believe that it is some type of break off group for the JW’s ?… Read more »
This is really nice of the brothers in the responsible positions that they inserted this clauses in the internal policies that nearly nobody from the rank&file know’s about, just to protect themselves or the mather org from the potential lawsuit. How this could be right? Fatc is that these rules are nonsensical and harming. We are told that we are the only true religion on this planet, but in fact we bring reproach on God by imposing these pharisaical rules on people. Many people who are aware of the true nature of our teachings actually think that we are not… Read more »
Maxwell, are you implying that if yours and Apollos views are different, you are not open to further discussion? You do realize there are 84 members on the discussion board, don’t you?
Apollos is very learned. But there are also many others with knowledge and intelligence..
If your mind is that closed, how did you ever see the truth about the GB? I’m merely curious as those two views seem counter-intuitive.
Bro Apollos, thank you very much. Before saying yes to continuing this discussion at DTT, may I ask you two questions? Do you feel the Logos had equality with his father? Do you favor modalism, that God is a singular person that acted in different forms and at different times? I concur that one needs to remain open regarding scholarly works, I have referred to many other theological works in my studies. I quoted BeDuhn mostly because of his particular focus on accuracy in translation at Phil 2:5-7. I think we both agree his findings clearly fly in the face… Read more »
At moments like this, I always find it beneficial to go back to basics. What do we know? What can be explicitly understood from Scripture? These are things we can all agree upon. The things which are not so clear are the things in the metal mirror. (1 Cor. 13:12) When discussing things we cannot know for certain, it is best to be “quick to listen, slow to speak”. One of the things that makes me angry still is to see the effect of a lifetime of indoctrination in my own self. I see it in the knee-jerk reaction I… Read more »
It is all about headship, Jehovah is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of the congregation, he is also a king, Adam was Eve’s head, that is how I see all this, to my knowledge this has always been the case from the beginning, this creates unity, Satan did not respect God’s headship his right to rule, he being the creator of all and the giver of laws that govern the universe.
Your still in
I agree with you on many points imacountrygirl; somewhere above is a reference I made regarding your scriptures sited early on, and much your answer coincides with my thoughts. Guess I didn’t post the right way to answer Maxwell. I love and fear for all my brothers and sisters making individual choices according to one’s own conscience. Dealing with the organization has presented a choice of truth or lies. There is nothing in between – my opinion, of course. Col 2:20-22; 1 Cor 7:23. Isn’t it the path of salvation the important thing? Psalm 146:3 – Do not trust in… Read more »
Thank you, apollos for that reminder. I’ll just finish up here 🙂 Maxwell – Oh, brother, I know your struggle within and I realize the thought of stepping totally out of the organization can bring the pain of losing family and friends. I am not criticizing anyone for staying put; but I’m giving scriptural guidance that helped me personally see the need to give God exclusive devotion and not through the guiles of an organization supposedly blessed by Jehovah. Christ didn’t say following him would be easy but warned whatever happened to him would happen to those who put faith… Read more »
Didn’t He say we should worship in spirit and truth? JW’s tell others that a drop of poison in a glass of water is lethal ..but not for them/us ? What about Rev 8.10, 11, ‘many men died from the water’ ..I personally haven’t left physically do to my circumstances but mentally I probably left years ago. 2012 was my first year without attending at least the memorial. ( I stopped getting the publications in the end of last year.) But where to go? Surching the net didn’t give me anything until last year. And it has been quite a… Read more »
“This doesn’t address the principles you’ve all expressed. However, with regard to the specifics of blood transfusions, since it is a medical procedure, the medical staff is under strict rules to keep confidence. So whatever decision a brother makes is between him and his doctor. If the brothers tried to get involved, perhaps through the HLC, the brother simply has to say that it’s taken care of and refuse to discuss medical decisions. That is his prerogative.”–Meleti
I wish someone would have pulled my coat tail and told me this. In my case I would have been discreet.
Peely said: “As you say, it is not about strategy, but pleasing our God. It is not a matter of sitting on a fence and juggling wrong in one hand and right in another. (I always picture a barbed wire fence – such pain going through that chosen course!) It is instead a matter of grabbing hold of the “simplicity” that is Christ” Peely: I believe how one views much of this recent discussion depends upon whether one’s vantage point is from standing within, or outside the organization. I very much respect your comments, and I respect your personal decision… Read more »
imacountrygirl2, thank you for the scriptural references especially Matthew 10:32-39 and Luke 12:51-53 – these were my thoughts too.
Max,
“…the anointed have been reduced to just another publisher.”
“…long-time partakers now sit alongside Joe publisher.”
Is there something wrong with ‘just’ being a publisher?
“…immodest anointed…”
Perhaps the humility of the anointed is being tested. Perhaps they are being given the assignment to nurture their local congregation. Are they doing this? If not, why would Jehovah give them even more responsibility?
maxwellsmartjw said: “this is not an issue that involves conscience, It involves strategy.” Sorry Max, but this is where we disagree. My conscience would be involved if I had to basically LIE saying I am sorry to keep from getting disfellowshiped, when the real truth of the matter is I would not sorry because I had already determined ahead of time that I would take blood. I understand the “I am Sorry” policy that the GB has put in place in an effort to protect them against a class action wrongful death lawsuit. But I am not going to play… Read more »
BM said: “I think what I would do, is try to keep it on the down low as much as possible. Nobody else needs to know. Do as Meleti suggests and simply say that it has been taken care of and refuse to discuss my medical decisions”. BM, the strategy approach I shared is used ONLY as a last resort, if some well meaning friend or family member became aware, and divulged the confidence to the HLC or local elders. Meleti’s suggestion is by far the best option. So how do we handle it if the cat is out of… Read more »
I don’t think that being deceitful and or lying and playing their “sorry” game, in order to not get DF’ed, is something I could personally do.
I do not recognize their (the GB’s) authority over me. And by taking a stand and not playing their game, I would hope that would be a good example for others my family and friends included to not be followers of men.
BM, as far as I could see you didn’t directly answer my earlier question as to what you would do. But I guess your last comment makes it clear enough. It suggests that you would simply accept DF’ing under the circumstance. But if you are taking a stand by “not playing their game” in order to provide an example, then why not just tell friends and family now? Under your line of reasoning would it not be a measure of deceit to have them believe that you would follow the doctrinal rules, but knowing that when it came to the… Read more »
BM if it is your “strategy” to follow Meleti’s advise (which by the way I completely concur with), how is it that not being revealing your strategy to family and friends would not be considered deceitful? I too am attempting to work this out in my own mind. If I understand what you’re saying correctly, if your strategy (maintaining confidentiality) should fail, your acceptance of blood became public knowledge and elders came to meet with you, you would stand your ground and DA yourself? So, you feel family and friends would view you as a good example if: 1. You… Read more »
First off I would not DA myself. They would have to DF me if they saw fit to do that. Not telling someone how you feel about or view something now is not deceitful. Everyone has a right to their own thoughts and views. When and if the time comes that you have to reveal those things then so be it. A good example would be set by not following men and their man made rules when the time came. A good example is set by not compromising your conscience. A good example is set by NOT saying “I am… Read more »
This is in response to Peely’s comment: “If we bring anything but pure truth to individuals, in the Father’s eyes would that truth be considered as “not really harming anyone?” Thank you for your perspective, it appears sound, though I admit I need to do more research on this. You mentioned “pure” truth, may I share an analogy? I liken “pure” truth to pure 24k gold. I do believe that certain core teachings within the JW belief system are 24 carat. I also contend that there are teachings that are diluted by NWT translator bias, expedience, and leadership agenda. Some… Read more »
The reason comments are out of sequence is due to whether you REPLY to an individual, under their name, or whether you “LEAVE A REPLY”.in the big box at the bottom of the page by clicking on POST COMMENT.. If everyone were to LEAVE A REPLY in the big box, the comments would remain in sequence. Just start your reply by saying the name of who you are responding to and they can see your response is to them.. It took me a while to catch onto that. I almost wish we did not have a REPLY option at all… Read more »
I concur BeenMislead. Let’s hope none of us ever need a blood transfusion!
In all actuality Maxwell, returning & fading is exactly the strategy i had in mind. For i promised myself once back i will let no man (or group of men) play God with my life again. (Col 2:18 Psa 56:2, 4)
Imacountrygirl2, You say, some lose sight of the fact that it is possible to leave an organisation without leaving our Lord Jesus and our Heavenly Father. Since leaving the Organisation, after serving for many years as a JW, I have now come to know Jehovah God as my Heavenly Father and have discovered the teachings of Jesus Christ and I have learned so much more about the Good News of the Kingdom and what it really means. Admittedly being in the Organisation did give me a head start but I knew that for me it was time to leave. And… Read more »
Countrygirl2 & maxwellsmart both of you are spot on! Theres no way 2 return without biting my tongue. Theres just 1 problem- biting my tongue! (prov 15:4) therein lies the conflict. The more i make strides 2 return, the more hypocritical i feel knowing what i know & looking the other way so 2 speak. I do however appreciate both of your responses. As far as family is concearned, i have extensive active members. Most of whom deal with me when convenient because i am reliable. But as i have engaged in this unscriptual form of psychological warfare over the… Read more »
Wheresenoch.
So, using strategy, what if you were to give it a few more months, follow protocol, and get the DF monkey off your back?
If you still feel the same as you do today, change congregations and then simply fade….. wouldn’t that be win/win?
If you faded, zealous family will judge you but still include you in family gatherings. Less zealous family will hang out with you.
The only reason I suggest this is because of the investment you’ve made.
Maxwell
Besides many others, two interesting statements were made here. Katrina – I am so sorry for your pain. So many of us can understand completely as we have been through it. Courage and prayers to you, sister. You said: “I have come to believe that the org was set up by the devil to trap sheep to hold them hostage to the idol” I give you this scripture to consider: 2 Thess 2:9-12 – The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception… Read more »
I’m sorry about the two replies, my first got lost in the shuffle so I re-wrote, and then the first surfaces. Oh well. Say a person has researched for themselves and come to the conclusion our blood doctrine is scripturally flawed. They have prayerfully decided in advance that they would accept blood if in a life threatening situation. If one has close JW family and does not want to be forced to become estranged from them, knowing one has the option of asking for forgiveness after the fact…. instead of pressing the issue during the fact and dissing oneself….. just… Read more »
maxwellsmartjw said: “They have prayerfully decided in advance that they would accept blood if in a life threatening situation. If one has close JW family and does not want to be forced to become estranged from them, knowing one has the option of asking for forgiveness after the fact…. instead of pressing the issue during the fact and dissing oneself….. just might seem pretty appealing. All I’m saying is the option is there, and for some it might be a much better outcome.” Sorry Max but I have to strongly disagree with your above statement. It would be hypocritical and… Read more »
When I saw Bro Max’s comment I knew that it would elicit a response like this sooner or later. And I can completely understand why someone would respond this way. However I would like to give my support to what Bro Max wrote. I don’t have time to write a comprehensive response just now, but anyone familiar with this site and my articles will know my position on the blood doctrine. If not (and assuming you want to know) then you can find them under the category of “Blood” on the left hand column. We should open a discussion about… Read more »
What I will say, since it won’t be central to a general discussion, is that in order to judge this stance as deceitful you have to have taken a position on the doctrine in the first place. The organization deceives people and governments frequently when they deem it to be in “theocratic interests”. Rahab lied. But it apparently wasn’t wrong. Sometimes we have to be “cautious as serpents” and it doesn’t count as deceit. But in order to determine the validity in any particular situation you must already have decided if one of God’s laws is being broken either way.… Read more »
I concur Apollos. Often it is not the action but the motivation that determines right from wrong. The difference between fornication and lawful intercourse can be as simple as a spoken vow. Deceit carries a negative connotation in our culture, but it is merely an action which may be good and may be bad depending on the circumstances. For example: (1 Kings 22:20-23) . . .Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool A′hab, so that he will go up and fall at Ra′moth-gil′e·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah… Read more »
The reason why it is deceitful (or dishonest and misleading if you will) is the whole notion that you are saying I am sorry, when the real truth of the matter is you are not sorry because you had already determined ahead of time that you would take blood.
Sorry, but my conscience would not allow me to do that.
It is not for me to judge anybody else if they decided to do this though.
But I just had to put my two cents worth in.
Hi BeenMislead I understand, and you’ve made me think twice about this. I was previously thinking about the planning in advance what you might do without saying so, rather than what you would say in hindsight after doing so. I don’t know what your stance is on blood, but let’s say for arguments sake that you were absolutely convinced that it was morally wrong to sacrifice life over this doctrine, what would your plan be? Would you just tell people now? Would you wait until the situation arose? And if so would you prepare yourself in advance that you would… Read more »
I have to add after rereading my own last comment that it’s difficult to suppress a degree of ire that such a decision has to be encountered at all.
This doesn’t address the principles you’ve all expressed. However, with regard to the specifics of blood transfusions, since it is a medical procedure, the medical staff is under strict rules to keep confidence. So whatever decision a brother makes is between him and his doctor. If the brothers tried to get involved, perhaps through the HLC, the brother simply has to say that it’s taken care of and refuse to discuss medical decisions. That is his prerogative.
BM note my comment below to Jannai “What I’m trying to convey is that there are options available in these two sensitive areas for those of us with active witness family. Those with active family who view our blood policy as flawed do not relish the thought of being forced to sacrifice family ties, in exchange for what? That we can later say we stood our ground and publicly rejected an unscriptural policy? Is the satisfaction worth the cost? Is there another way to skin the cat, win/win? In my opinion, this is not an issue that involves conscience, It… Read more »
A further thought, in a short time we’ve traveled from the penalty for accepting blood being automatic DA, with no benefit of a judicial hearing to determine if one was repentant…. To the erring sinner needing only minor counsel, similar to if one got drunk or smoked a cigarette. What does this tell us? It tells me the GB know that our teaching is flawed. They can’t change our official stand for legal reasons, but they can, through the back door reduce the penalty for accepting it to basically a slap on the hand. Now, here’s the clincher for me:… Read more »
Yes I thought the first was lost, so I did a redraft.
Maxwellsmart, there seem to be two replies from you – I’ll reply to the first one. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood anything you have said, but I will do my best. Regarding accepting blood – you say the key is admitting the mistake. I say – how can a deliberate act be a mistake? You say, the key is in admitting the mistake and then you say this might be difficult for some and I would certainly agree with you there! With regard to disfellowshipped relatives – you go on to say, no JC, no elders involved, end… Read more »
Sorry Jannai, my earlier reply landed above your post. What I’m trying to convey is that there are options available in these two sensitive areas for those of us with active witness family. Those with active family who view our blood policy as flawed do not relish the thought of being forced to sacrifice family ties, in exchange for what? That we can later say we stood our ground and publicly rejected an unscriptural policy? Is the satisfaction worth the cost? Is there another way to skin the cat, win/win? In my opinion, this is not an issue that involves… Read more »
Maxwell, Thank you for conveying to me your opinion.
My apologies if this reply lands in the wrong place – comments seem to be out of sequence.
Thank you Jannai, yes things are a little out of sequence.
I wish to apologize to any who may have been offended by my rather passionate opinion on the blood policy. I go on record that I hold the same sentiments as Apollos shared in the “Blood Section of this forum”. I haven’t yet opportunity to consider Meleti’s thoughts.
I’ve shared my personal plan of action not to impose my conscience on anyone. I respect that others may yet hold our blood policy is scriptural.
In the end, we each carry our own load.
Maxwell
Or is it the other way around? about comments, I mean.
It would appear I am close….just vice versa. My first comment about replying, landed way up in the list. The second time, I clicked on REPLY, which opened a new box. After this comment “Or is it the other way around? about comments, I mean.”
Now I am posting my comment at the bottom of the page. I still get confused even now.
Now if I can only remember which way it is…………..
I believe this discussion is about much more than the Blood issue. It is about disfellowshipping, A Weapon of Darkness. Meleti himself said “Like them, we can repent for past sins, but what of the future? With the knowledge we know have, can we get off scot-free if we continue to help men wield this weapon of darkness? Let us not hide behind transparent excuses. We have become what we have long disdained and condemned: A human rulership. All human rulership stands in opposition to God. Invariably, this has been the final outcome of all organized religion.” Reading all these… Read more »
Hi imacountrygirl2, I appreciate this post; and you are right, it IS about being a Christian, and pleasing Christ. Pleasing Christ pleases the Father. I thought of these scriptures which you are no doubt already recalling since writing your post: 1 Tim 6:20,21 – “O Timothy; Guard this hope and turn away from all the worldly babbling as well as all that is falsely referred to as ‘knowledge;’ 21 for, it’s through [such things] that some who once showed promise in the faith have been turned aside”. Luke 16:3 – “No servant can serve two masters. He is bound to… Read more »
correction – Luke 16:3 was meant to read Luke 16:13. Hope there’s no other mistakes!
imacountrygirl2, just posted reply and again it landed in the wrong place! Here it is again: Thank you for the scriptural references especially Matthew 10:32-39 and Luke12:51-53 – these were my thoughts too.
NOTE: For all those who keep having problems with positioning comments in relation to an ongoing conversation – this is part of the reason why we have the discussion forum at http://www.discussthetruth.com. Here on WordPress the comments facility is not ideal for keeping track of multiple threads and responses. The discussion board lends itself much better to that. And you can of course refer back to any article here via a link so that things can be referenced. [EDIT] Just a suggestion only. Please don’t think I’m criticizing you posting here. That’s good too. I’m just thinking that some longer… Read more »
Perhaps others are feeling exhausted at this moment as I am. Whenever I feel like this I try to think of the kindness of Jesus. Matthew 11:28-30 “Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves. For my yoke is kindly, and my load is light.”
I hope it didn’t come across like I was saying you were doing it wrong. I was just making a suggestion to help. There’s no right or wrong place. I edited my comment just in case.
The reason I feel exhausted is because of the arguing that has been going on in some of the comments in this article and it’s been going on for too long. Galatians 5:22,23. I just hope no one suffers from high blood pressure!!
Oh, okay. I didn’t pay enough attention to the detail. “A tranquil spirit revives the body” (Prov 14:30, NET)
Peace to you all 🙂
“Do we have to jump ship, forfeit our family, businesses, and life friends to grab hold of the “simplicity” that is Christ?” Maxwell, You and others keep speaking of “jumping ship”, as though leaving the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses means that you have to “jump” into another religion. May I suggest another alternative? If one should “jump ship” as it were, I would think you could land on your own two feet and be individually accountable to Jesus….and still hold the baby in your arms, next to your heart. No organization is going to protect us or save us. Our… Read more »
This is in response to CG: “You my brother on the other hand, are encouraging individuals to stay in the organization. You have a much greater burden than myself. You are unintentionally and perhaps innocently, probably motivated by looking out for the interests of your brothers and sisters, you are helping them through devious, manipulating and misleading actions to remain unbeknownst to others around them in an organization that everyone so far has agreed does not have God’s backing”. Pretty strong comments my sister, I must say, I’m disappointed. This makes me wonder if there might be a bit of… Read more »
Bro Apollos, This is how I understand the deity of Jesus doctrine: Now the Christian meaning of the term “deity of Christ” is fairly clear. The Christian believes that there is a personal God, Creator and Ruler of the universe, a God who is infinite, eternal and unchangeable. So when the Christian says that Jesus Christ is God, or when he says that he believes in the “deity of Christ,” he means that that same person who is known to history as Jesus of Nazareth existed, before He became man, from all eternity as infinite, eternal and unchangeable God, the… Read more »
Hi Max First of all I’m not sure why your fellowship in the forum would depend upon my personal view on this. I am but one voice. I do not claim absolute truth. And I do not run this forum. Neither do I personally consider it to be a place where consensus is mandatory for fellowship. But if you do then that’s of course a matter that I would not wish to dictate. I hope though that you will be more open to free discussion whereby we both might consider one another as iron sharpening iron. Even though your comment… Read more »
Bro Apollos, I understand that consensus is not mandatory for fellowship on this site and I am fine with that. In that I highly respect your knowledge and understanding of scripture, I admit I was a bit taken back if in fact you held to what my understanding of the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus. I debated Phil 2:6,7 with a university scholar, and in that month long debate research that specifically convinced me that Jesus is not equal to Jehovah is in the definition of “harpagmos” as defined in the Dictionary of New Testament Theology, In short, harpagmos… Read more »
Maxwell, I do sincerely apologize if I have offended you. I merely offered my opinion, as you voiced yours. Yes, I admit I do get a bit over-emotional when I think of my dear brothers and sisters who are in the organization. It is love and concern for them that motivates me. I feel pity for all those blinded ones being led by blind guides. They are all Jesus precious sheep and I fear there are wolves within the flock seeking to devour them, as those same wolves attack me. I do not have sour grapes. I don’t for one… Read more »
Thank you CG apology accepted. I have no doubt that you are sincere when you say you have love and concern for your dear brothers and sisters who are in the organization, including your JW family. Please understand that for some of us, especially those of us with extended witness family and with businesses which employ witnesses and/or have mostly witness cliental, comments that imply we are hypocrites and juggling between right and wrong, that we are sitting on the fence, that seem to imply that we are unapproved by Jehovah and Jesus unless we jump ship, are just plain… Read more »
Bro Max,
First off let me say that I am not doubting what you are saying about:
1) The recently adopted “sorry” clause in our internal blood policy.
2) The recent “removal of imposed sanction” in our disfellowship policy.
I very much appreciate you sharing this information. But I know I always like to show or reference proof of what I say.
So can you show or reference proof of these recent changes in policy?
BeenMislead, I want to commend you for your very brave stand to abide by your conscience. Our Saviour is watching us all and no doubt sees the sheep-like nature you display as one of his flock. Your attitude seems to be balanced, carefully reasoned out and reveals the nature of your conscience in regards to Scripture.. My brother, I know what a struggle this is for you. I want to offer my Christian love and support for you no matter what the outcome. Our Lord gives us unconditional love and in gratitude for that, I give you the same. If… Read more »
To imacountrygirl2:
Thank you for those encouraging words!
They mean more to me than you know.
Dido on the Christian love, Support and Encouragement.
To Been Mislead, have you joined the Discussion Board available to Borean Pickets readers? http://www.discussthetruth.com/index.php
No I have not Joined the Discussion Board yet.
I will get around to it soon.
This is in response to BM, “I very much appreciate you sharing this information. But I know I always like to show or reference proof of what I say. So can you show or reference proof of these recent changes in policy?” BM, I’m glad that you appreciate what I shared regarding the “sorry” clause and the “removal of imposed sanction” for undue association with DF/DA relatives. I regret I am not comfortable providing the exact quotation or reference from the elders guide. I don’t believe Meleti would want that either. To be candid, I steer clear of anything that… Read more »
To Max:
First off thanks for the reply.
When you say “elders guide”, are you referring to the “Shepherd the Flock of God” book?
Or is there some new elders guide out there?
If it is the “Shepherd the Flock of God” book, then wasn’t it published in 2010?
So how could these be “recent changes” in policy?
Thanks.
BeenMislead
The “Shepherd the Flock of God” book was published in 2010. So I am not sure if this is what ” maxwellsmartjw” is referring to when he says “the recently adopted sorry clause in our internal blood policy” or not. ——————————————————————— But here is what it says in Chapter 9 of the “Shepherd the Flock of God” book: “Willingly and umrepentantly taking blood. If someone willingly takes blood, perhaps because of being under extreme pressure, the committee should obtain the facts and determine the individual’s attitude. If he is repentant, the committee would provide spiritual assistance in the spirit of… Read more »
Been Mislead, thank you for this information from Shepherd Flock of God book – it’s good to know.
BM that didn’t take you long. To ease your mind I’ll respond. My use of the term recent was generally speaking, in the last 4 years. Of note is that the prior paragraph in chapter 9 specifies the “committee” involved for one joining another religious organization is not judicial. Therefore it is investigative in nature (2 elders vs 3) In that there is no mention of “judicial” in the blood paragraph, a similar “investigative” committee would be involved (not judicial). Accepting blood is not listed as an official disfellowshipping offense in chapter 5, Smoking and drunkenness are DF offenses, however… Read more »
BM one last thought: Of note in the paragraph involving “undue” association with DF/DA relatives, of significant note (to me anyway) is that one who “violates the spirit of the disfellowshipping and does not respond to counsel” MAY no longer qualify to be an elder/pioneer. The term MAY is quite astounding. Wouldn’t one assume if an elder violated the spirit of DF he at minimum automatically forfeits special privileges? Not so. What is being said here is that, depending upon how discreet the association is kept (the congregation doesn’t get all unraveled) it may possible for an elder continue, especially… Read more »
Bro Apollos I will be traveling today away from my computer, I wanted to offer you a point for consideration regarding Phil 2:5-7. Perhaps you could move this over to DTT as a topic and respond? I have understood you to say that you do not fully embrace the commonly held view of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, therefore at this point I’m not sure exactly what you do embrace. For the sake of discussion, I submit the following for consideration. I mentioned in an earlier comment that I intended to provide information to refute the commonly held… Read more »
You’ve focused in on a very specific scripture here Max. I’m happy to address that one, although I think in reality the jury is still out as far as a perfect translation is concerned. I respect BeDuhn’s work, but I have personally moved on from treating “Truth in Translation” as a new gospel as some seem to have done at times. It is a valuable and scholarly piece of reference work, but there are still valid alternative views on some of the passages that he covers. I treat Greg Stafford’s work the same way, whereas I admit that I used… Read more »
Max – I hope my last reply gives you a better insight into my current position on this. If you wish to continue the conversation do you mind if I transfer it over to DTT under the topic of “Philippians 2:5-11”? I ask for your permission because I would need to copy your last comment which opened up the specific subject, and also my response.
Apollos
Bro Apollos, thank you very much. Before saying yes to continuing this discussion at DTT, may I ask you two questions? Do you feel the Logos had equality with his father? Do you favor modalism, that God is a singular person that acted in different forms and at different times? I concur that one needs to remain open regarding scholarly works, I have referred to many other theological works in my studies. I quoted BeDuhn mostly because of his particular focus on accuracy in translation at Phil 2:5-7. I think we both agree his findings clearly fly in the face… Read more »
This is a duplicate comment I posted at the wrong place. Ooops.
Maxwell, are you implying that if yours and Apollos views are different, you are not open to further discussion? You do realize there are 84 members on the discussion board, don’t you?
Apollos is very learned. But there are also many others with knowledge and intelligence..
If your mind is that closed, how did you ever see the truth about the GB? I’m merely curious as those two views seem counter-intuitive.
CG, As shown in some of my posts, my personal and prayerful research has revealed that some, not all, of JW teachings are scripturally flawed. I’m especially disturbed with the blood ban, extreme shunning, and the two-witness rule applied to child abuse. As I’ve said often, these effect human life and cause unnecessary suffering. I am most outspoken regarding these teachings. As I have spent hours posting in this room, there has been “internal” reform in the blood ban. And further, nearly every state will now court order blood on a JW child if necessary. Elders have been advised there… Read more »
Hi Bro Max Although the answers to your questions are no, I’ve decided it would be best to drop the conversation for now. I’m not a huge fan of it being so conditional. You’ve made clear to that it’s a very sensitive issue for you. Each person has their hot buttons I guess. There would be some out there who would not fellowship with either you or me because of our stance on blood. And that’s fair enough. Everybody should be allowed to choose what conditions they put on their friendships. You may have been surprised to find that my… Read more »
Bro Apollos, Thank you, Yes, I admit this is my one hot button. I would hope that I wouldn’t have been too rigid regarding the possibility of a slight variation, I just don’t know what that variation might be. I need to say that when I became involved with the group, I assumed that all were on the same page and held this one core truth to be true. If Greek word definition is compelling, and scriptural support is compelling, I have no option but to accept change. I consider the original language the gold standard for establishing the basis… Read more »
Peely said: “As you say, it is not about strategy, but pleasing our God. It is not a matter of sitting on a fence and juggling wrong in one hand and right in another. (I always picture a barbed wire fence – such pain going through that chosen course!) It is instead a matter of grabbing hold of the “simplicity” that is Christ” Peely: I believe how one views much of this recent discussion depends upon whether one’s vantage point is from standing within, or outside the organization. I very much respect your comments, and I respect your personal decision… Read more »
Country Girl said: “IMHO, this is not a game as in win/win, though some may view it as such. This is not about strategy, it is about being a Christian and pleasing Christ Jesus; unless you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and are required to believe all of their doctrines. I honestly don’t know…can we be both at the same time”? CG: The discussion involving strategy and win/win involves brothers/sisters who find themselves in the position you were some time ago. We remain inside….. we have much at stake, it is not an easy road for any of us to… Read more »
Hi Bro Maxwell
Just to pick up on one point …
Jesus is not his Father. That much is true. But once you come to accept the deity of Christ you will have a much broader search on your hands. (Assuming that you still wish to search for an organization with custody of “the truth”)
Apollos
Bro Apollos,
The doctrine of the deity of Jesus that I am referring and familiar with definitely infers that Jesus exists inside of Jehovah’s form. I’m very open to learning a different way of looking a this.
And yes my brother, I’m searching.
Perhaps you could start thread on this in the discussion board?
Maxwell
correction – that he existed in Jehovah’s form (inside of Jehovah’s spirit being) before emptying himself. Those I’ve had discussions with on this topic have been firmly fixed in the trinitarian camp.
“infers that Jesus exists inside of Jehovah’s form”
With a little tweak that would be “Jesus exists in God’s form”. Which of course as you almost certainly know is entirely scriptural (Phil 2:6). So you probably not as far away as you think you are.
Apollos
correction – that Jesus existed in God’s form (inside the actual spiritual being of Jehovah) before emptying himself. The discussions I’ve had on this topic have been with those in the trinitarian camp, so that may have skewed our discussions and left me with the wrong understanding of the doctrine.
Maxwell- I appreciate your post regarding the blood issue. You have given me so much to think about. Your advice is practical and it’s not unscriptural IMO. I would never want to bind another brother’s or sister’s conscience with mines. I was disciplined for this very issue years ago. My strategy was ill advised and had so many holes. I wish I had you years ago. The elder’s meeting was a horrible experience and I felt backed in a corner. I had to make concessions ( or compromise depending on the way you look at it ) so that I… Read more »
I feel the same as you Jannai40. Some of the reasons I do not go out in service anymore is, I am not going to bring somebody into a religion that does the following: 1) Continues to mislead people with absolute statements that the end is “very soon”. I personally have heard this for 45 years. History shows that they have been doing this for over 100 years. The harsh reality is that they don’t know this for absolutely sure, as history testifies. So it is misleading. – (There are many quotes I could reference. See this one 45 years… Read more »
I think I speak for all when I say that in addition to the many contributors on this site and DTT it’s a Truly a blessing to have you Max . I admire your grasp of the deep things of God (I am a lay person in every sense of the word 🙂 ) I also especially enjoy your well researched comments. I am similarly very found of Bobcat for the same reason. It saddens me that the GB would much rather greedily hold on to their illusion of truth and not tap into the knowledge of our brothers in… Read more »
GWIT, I’m humbled to be among others who have much more spiritual insight than myself. I’m learning something new and meaningful that increases spiritual insight everyday. I’ve view this site as an underground movement. Some of us are active (some elders / pioneers), some are inactive, some are df’d, some are dissed. Some are df’d and for personal reasons, feel something is missing in their life (especially family) and the need to return, and once there, then decide how they want their life to proceed. Some of us are able to take the good…. with the bad….. and even the… Read more »
In retrospect, this is one of the reasons we got this going, at least that is how I feel. I was also getting more and more irritated and had to vent my frustration to trusted friends. It turns out that some of them didn’t deserve that trust. In other cases, they kept my confidences, but became upset with me. I was forcing them to look at things they didn’t want to look at, so the friendship became strained. It is similar to the scenario where you see a good friend doing things to damage his marriage or his health. You… Read more »
Country Girl, I regret that you did not have this forum available to you before the congregation dealt with your situation. Had been available, perhaps things might have turned out differently for you? Having been able to openly vent, express your frustration, feeling safe to openly challenge long held beliefs using the scriptures, and especially, the comfort and peace of mind knowing you’re not alone. As Meleti said in one of his posts, this is a place to let our pop-off valve release, without fear of judgment, condemnation or punishment. Perhaps having this avenue open to you would have helped… Read more »
Maxwellamart – I stopped attending KH some months ago and some months prior to that I stopped taking part in field service because my conscience would no longer allow me to direct people to the Organisation without warning people about child abuse, false teachings etc. OK – so you could reason that – but I wouldn’t say this or that – however if you are taking part in the ministry the householder considers you as one of JW and therefore you are directing them to that Organisation. I’m not criticising anyone on this site for the way they do things,… Read more »
Jannai40 thank you for sharing. So you faded, and I think that makes quite a difference. Technically, you haven’t lost any active family, assuming you have any. Of course, they may treat you differently, but you do have them, they haven’t written you off yet. I think this plays into the decision process. I ask myself, does the baby (our core teachings) outweigh the dirty bath water? (erroneous teachings). I believe our core teachings are truth, and the majority of our peripheral teachings don’t really harm anyone. The teachings that I am most disturbed by are our blood policy, family… Read more »
maxwellsmartjw – It’s great to having you here and thanks for yours insightful and balanced comments.
Hi MaxwellSmartJW,
I very much enjoyed this comment. I have an idea I’d like to run by you. Can you email me at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com?
Country Girl I completely understand your perspective. Were I in your shoes, I can imagine myself feeling very similar to how you feel. If I understand Wheresenoch correctly, he’s already traveled most the distance necessary to qualify for reinstatement. The JC that df’d him can’t hold him out forever. He’s invested years attending meetings, moved to different a congregation, etc. He expresses a desire to come back, and he’s been able to reconcile any conscience issue, or I doubt he would be making the effort. It does appear he has some limited contact with his sister (assumed active), and so… Read more »
Hey maxwell totaly agree with everything you said there in that comment that as far as i can see is exactly what the bible says about this subject i have also independently come to the same conclusions thanks kev
“Were I in your shoes, I would definitely suck it up and come back.” Maxwell, that is the advice you gave to ¿Wheresenoch?. Welcome to the both of you!!! I look forward to future comments. There is another side to this coin. It is that for some, myself included, going back to the KH would make me a hypocrite and would violate my conscience. I cannot knowingly beg my way to re-join an organization that is making the outrageous claim that the GB is now the FDS who speaks for God himself, along with all the other deceptions they practice.… Read more »
I believe the collective voice of reason of those contributing on this site will touch any sincere and honest seeker of truth within our brotherhood, should they stumble onto this site. Perhaps Jehovah will bless our efforts and the truth will effect change?
MSJW
Thanks Vivlon 4 confirming my thoughts from an elders point of view. There have actually been times that ive sat front & center wt studied and smiling, & felt the most intense looks of disdain as if i should be sobbing & hiding in the back of the hall! I attend meetings not out of indoctrination but 2 be abreast of any changes in policy. Ive witnessed new people awakening on this site almost every post along with countless others like myself silently observing. Some in “good standing” others not so much. We all have in common the use of… Read more »
I can confirm and concur with Meleti’s comments above. In a court proceeding, an appeal is a process for requesting a formal change to an official decision. There are two types of appeals. There are “on the record” appeals, and there are “de novo” (lat. from the beginning) appeals. The JW system is an “on the record” appeal. The decision of the JC hearing the case is challenged by arguing that they came to an inaccurate determination regarding genuine repentance. The appeal committee reviews the “on record” notes and testimony of the JC. Only information which transpired during the original… Read more »
I felt like that as well maxwell i was also an elder its so frustrating when your not allowed to express your concerns to others without fear of reprisals especially when you know your in the right and can see clear unscriptural procedures and attitudes displayed in the religion .Just made me really angry ill be honest in the end . Kev
Apparently current COs are poisoning the well of the laid off COs. My parents had the CO over for lunch recently. He talked about the changes and said more are coming. He also mentioned that the changes allowed the branch to retire some eccentric old-fashioned dinosaurs. I’d quote him, but it wouldn’t put it past him to be reading this site. So I don’t expect anyone to listen to anything an ex do/co has to say. They will be dismissed as old timers who aren’t moving along with the chariot. This new changes are making me nervous. I’m concerned about… Read more »
I agree, Sargon. Something is coming. You can almost smell it on the wind.
Hello all ! Been following this site 4 a yr. 1st time posting hope it goes thru. I was announced ‘no longer a jw’ almost 5 yrs ago. Ten months later my 1st letter was met with a ‘just wait’ answer. No scriptural reason just wait. So i did about a yr & some change. Made most every meeting. 2nd letter, wait some more. Moved 2 another city so i attend another hall bout a yr.Just turned in 3rd letter 2 months ago.bros @ old hall insist on meeting with me but have yet 2 set 1 up. Current cong… Read more »
Welcome to the site, ¿Wheresenoch?. Having served as an elder for many decades, I know that many elders take a dim view of anyone asking for reinstatement who appealed the original decision. The idea is that if you appealed, you were not truly repentant. So if you now want to come back, they wonder if you are now truly repentant. This taints the alleged purpose of the appeal process since one knows that it will only add to one’s sentence, so best not to avail oneself of its very limited benefit and take your licks with the hope of shortening… Read more »
Seems to me the organization is reinventing itself with a ‘the loyal will follow, the recalcitrant will leave’ attitude. I would imagine the GB thinks the latter group is quite small. They may not be wrong, though I hope otherwise. As in the case of businesses that have done the same (like when Lafayette became Circuit City, or when Banana Republic went from quirky travel-ware store to a more fashionable boutique), the org probably feels that the changes are necessary to doing GoB’s will and whatever losses sustained are simply an investment in the future good health of the brotherhood.
keeponseeking thank you so much!
Meleti, Agree. Is it the case that some in the 70+ “old school” may have expressed some concerns regarding some of the recent adjustments? The GB may have felt they would have to drag some of these old brothers along “kicking and screaming”. Perhaps some were not fully on board? Would there not be far less fallout and potential upset in circuits if there was a disgruntled EX DO/CO….. rather than an active one? The new retirement age of 70 should prove sobering to many CO’s in their 50’s-60’s. If they continue on and Armageddon doesn’t materialize as they anticipate,… Read more »
Sending the 70+ out to pasture seems like a very short-sighted decision. Why they have made the decision is anyone’s guess. Cost cutting? Power consolidation? It’s hard to see a positive reason from a Scriptural point of view. The same can be said for the elimination of the district overseer arrangement. Someone once commented to me about the way the Organization deals with problematic situations: Complex problem, simple solutions. Perhaps “simplistic solution” would be more on the nose. I think that much that the GB does, it does with the sincere belief that it acts for God. I’m sure that… Read more »
I agree, it just doesn’t make sense to put these aging brothers out to pasture in their prime. If solicited (mandated) congregation donations cover their lease cars and auto insurance, the corporation’s out of pocket is basically the monthly stipend and an unknown liability for healthcare. All other expenses are covered by local circuits and congregations. In that for those without medicare they’ll be covering their healthcare either way, what are they saving by taking them off the road? I would think that age 75, even age 80 would be a better retirement age. Again, it makes no sense, unless… Read more »