[Watchtower study for the week of July 28, 2014 – w14 5/15 p. 26]
“The eyes of Jehovah area on the righteous.” 1 Pet. 3:12
The word “organization” appears over 17,000 times in all the publications included in the WT Library program. This is a remarkable number for publications which are considered as teaching aids to Bible understanding because the same word does not appear even once in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
Congregation does appear in that NWT some 254 times (1984 edition) and 208 (2013 edition). In the current issue we are studying this week, “congregation” appears 5 times. However, the non-scriptural term “organization” is used 55 times. Jesus said: “For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Mt 12:34) Why do we speak about organization far more then congregation? What is abundant in the heart of those leading us that causes them to vastly favor a non-scriptural term over a wholly scriptural one ?
I can say based on my decades as a Jehovah’s Witness that we view these two terms as synonymous. Only recently have I come to question that premise and done some investigation. With that in mind, let’s begin our review of this week’s study article.
Par. 1 - “Jehovah is rightly credited with the establishment of the Christian congregation in the first century…. As noted in the preceding article, the organization consisting of Christ’s early followers…” The boldfacing is used to highlight how, already in the opening two sentences of the article, the idea is introduced that “congregation” and “organization” are synonymous. If true—if these terms are interchangeable—then why do we favor the non-Biblical term over the one Jehovah gave us? We do this evidently because “organization” carries a meaning not found in “congregation”; a meaning that serves a purpose not provided for by the Biblical term. “Congregation” is ekklésia in Greek; often translated "church". It means “called forth” or “called out” and was used secularly to refer to a gathering of citizens called out of their homes into a public place for some official or administrative or political purpose. Loosely, it can mean any assembly of individuals. Its use in the Bible is more specific. Retaining the idea of being called out, it can refer to a local grouping of Christians meeting together. Paul used it this way. (Ro 16:5; 1 Co 16:19; Col 4:15; Phil 1:2) It is also used for the collective body of worshipers spread out over a larger geographical area. (Acts 9:31) It can also be used of the entire body of worshippers called out of the world for a purpose. (Acts 20:28; 1 Co 12:27, 28)
Nothing in the biblical term carries the idea of organization. An assembly of people who have been called out for some purpose may be organized or it may be disorganized. It may have a leader, or it may not. It may have an authority hierarchy or it may not. One thing it does have if we are going by the etymological meaning of the Greek is someone who called it out. In the case of the Christian congregation that someone is God. The first century congregation were those who were called out to belong to Christ. (Ro 1:6; 1 Co 1:1, 2; Eph 1:18; 1 Ti 1:9; 1 Pe 1:15; 1 Pe 2:9)
In contrast, “organization” is meaningless unless it is organized, has a leader, as well as an administrative hierarchy or authority structure. Thinking of those Christ has called to be his own in terms of an organization has far reaching consequences. To begin with, it can cause us to think in the collective rather than consider the individual. When the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society incorporates its branch offices in Spanish speaking nations, it is registered as una persona juridica. The organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses in those countries is viewed as a person in law. This highlights the mindset we increasingly see in the organization where the welfare of the whole—the person of the Organization— outweighs the needs of the individual. It is better to sacrifice the individual so as to preserve the integrity of the collective. This is simply not the Christian way and finds no support in the concept of congregation, where every individual “called out” is of equal value to our Lord and our Father. Perhaps this is why Jehovah never inspired any Bible writer to speak of the congregation as “the organization”.
Let us not get distracted by talk of the need to be organized. There is nothing wrong with being organized. But that isn’t the message of the last two articles in this issue. The title of last week’s study wasn’t, “Jehovah is an organized God”, but rather, “Jehovah is a god of organization”. We are not focusing all our attention on being organized, but instead, on belonging to, supporting, and obeying an organization. If doubts still linger in your mind, consider this statement, still from the opening paragraph: “God’s organization will survive the last days.” It is not his people who survive, but the organization itself.
Also telling is this sidebar found on page 25 of the Simplified Edition of this issue—though oddly missing from the standard one.
“The only way to have Jehovah’s favor is always to follow the direction of his organization.”
(The simplified version is intended for people with limited language skills. While that would include foreign language speakers learning English, they would have the magazines available in their own languages for comparison. The most vulnerable ones are our children. Using the simplified version and receiving this instruction from the people they trust most in the world, their own parents, they will come to believe whole-heartedly that their salvation requires absolute obedience to the commands[i] from the Governing Body.)
To further illustrate why Christ did not head up an organization, consider that the model he provided for loving care focused always on the individual. He could have done mass healings. That would have been most efficient from an organizational perspective. He could have had the ailing and sick lined up in a row and have run along the line, touching each one in passing as we’ve seen some supposed faith healers do on YouTube videos. Yet, he never engaged in such spectacles. He is always depicted as taking time for the individual, even stepping aside with some vulnerable ones to give them both personal and private attention.
Let us keep that picture in mind as we continue our review.
Par. 2 – Our loyalty to the organization is largely based on fear. If we are not part of it, we will die. That is the message. This short paragraph introduces the great tribulation and the destruction of Babylon the Great in preparation for the assertions in the next paragraph.
Par. 3 – Under this subheading we state in the Simplified Edition: “After false religion is destroyed, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the only religious organization left on earth.”
Satan’s Attack Leads to Armageddon
One of our readers pointed out that the jw.org web site answers a question commonly asked of Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?” The answer given is “No”. The site then goes on to provide an evasive explanation that people who have died in the past will be resurrected as unrighteous ones. But the question is not being asked in that context obviously, so we are contradicting ourselves. We do most definitely believe that only Jehovah’s Witnesses will be saved as this paragraph clearly states. Paragraph 5 closes with the statement, “Armageddon will bring an end to Satan’s world. But Jehovah’s organization will remain.”
That Jehovah’s people—his congregation, the ones he has called out of the world—will remain is beyond dispute as it is well attested to in the Bible. However, the Organization is another thing. Revelation describes Babylon the Great as being stripped naked, eaten up and burned. (Re 17:16; 18:8) We have often predicted that religions like the Catholic church will be stripped of all their wealth. Their buildings will be torn down and destroyed, their assets will be taken from them, their leadership attacked and killed. Many witnesses imagine that this storm of destruction will pass us by; that we will emerge with our buildings, finances, and religious hierarchy intact and ready to proceed with a final condemnatory message of judgment. If that turns out not to be the case—if, as the Bible and Christian history shows, it is individuals who are spared—what will be the result for so many who have put faith in an organization? Where will they go, having depended on men for so long for their salvation?
Why Jehovah’s Organization Continues to Grow
Par. 6 - Under this subheading in the Simplified Edition we state: “Today, the earthly part of God’s organization continues to grow because it is full of righteous people who have God’s approval.” The Governing Body does not have the benefit of miraculous gifts of the spirit, nor a cloud by day and column of fire by night to indicate Jehovah’s blessing. Neither can they point to an unbroken string of prophecies come true to prove divine endorsement. So they must resort to pointing to our growth as proof of God’s approval. The problem with that is some other religions are growing faster. A recent NY Times article reported that the evangelical movement in Brazil had grown from 15% to 22% of the population in one recent 10-year period. That is phenomenal growth! If growth is the measure of Jehovah’s blessing, then we must conclude that Brazil’s evangelical churches are “full of righteous people”.
Par. 7 – Here we are told the encouraging news that 2.7 million individuals have been baptized from 2003 to 2012, and that now there are almost 8 million of us. However, focusing only on those coming in the front door can blind us to a serious problem involving the huge number exiting through the back door. From 2000 to 2013, 3.8 million individuals were baptized, but 1.8 million vanished from our rosters. That’s almost half! The worldwide death rate doesn’t account for anything near that number of departing ones.
We will excuse that number by claiming they were “not of our sort”. (1 John 2:19) True, but that presumes we are ourselves of the right “sort”. Are we?
Par. 10 – We now get to the main point of the study: The need to follow direction and accept the teachings of the Organization (aka, the Governing Body) without question. We again misapply Proverbs 4:18[ii] to explain away our errors of the past. We are then encouraged to keep up with “refinements[iii] in our understanding of Scriptural truth”. We are encouraged to be an “avid reader” of the publications “especially now that the great tribulation is drawing so close!”
Par. 11 – “Jehovah’s organization is acting in our best interests when it urges us to heed the apostle Paul’s counsel: “Let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together…” People can love us and therefore act in our best interests. An impersonal organization cannot do this. An organization can have no heart. Paul was acting in our best interests when he penned these words and Jehovah even more so when he inspired this writing. Plugging the Organization in this way is done to reinforce the article’s theme of calling for loyalty to and appreciation of the Organization for all it has done for us.
We follow up with: “Today, we also have meetings, assemblies, and conventions. We should try to be present at all these occasions because they help us to stay close to Jehovah and to be happy in our service to him.” That is true, but is it because of the indoctrination we get there or because of divine teaching? Is the happiness many feel after attending an assembly or convention based on a genuine hope, or an illusion? What would we say if asked that question concerning any of the conventions held by other religions? Their tens of thousands of attendees make similar claims of joy and faith and hope and upbuilding association. Are they being indoctrinated or are these feelings the result of genuine divine instruction?
That fact is we like to believe. We love to believe. Believing makes us feel good. Yet, as Jehovah’s Witnesses we would discount any expressions of joy expressed by members of other religions following one of their revival meetings. We would recognize their sincerity and acknowledge God’s word has power, yet we would never want to attend one of those gatherings ourselves, because they teach falsehood. We might even acknowledge that 99% of what they teach is true, but that 1% poisons the whole mix for us, doesn’t it? Yet, if the only criteria that condemns those non-JW gatherings is the teaching of some falsehood, what can be said about ours? We teach 1914 as the start of Christ’s invisible presence. We teach that 99.9% of all Christians are sinners if they obey Jesus’ command to commemorate his death by partaking of the wine and bread. We teach that people who quietly leave our ranks must be treated as disfellowshipped. We teach that just believing in one’s heart that some of the Governing Body’s teachings are wrong merits disfellowshipping and spiritual—and eventually physical—death. We teach that those alive in 1914 were part of the generation who sees the end. We teach that the vast majority of Christians are not God’s children, but merely his friends. The list goes on, but is that not enough to lump us in with the rest whom we reject for teaching falsehoods?
Par. 12 – “As members of Jehovah’s organization, we must preach the good news.” (Simplified Edition) Again, the central theme, membership has its privileges. The article says nothing about being in Jehovah’s family, or part of a universal brotherhood, or of being part of the congregation of the holy ones. Yet, these are all Biblical concepts taught throughout the Christian Scriptures. No, the article pays no attention to these teachings, but instead focuses on membership in an organization ruled by men.
Par. 13 – Let us use our critical thinking as we consider this statement: “Jehovah wants what is best for us. That is why he wants us to stay close to him and his organization.” (Simplified Edition) The first sentence is true and scriptural, as is the first part of the second sentence. However, if Jehovah wants us to stay close to his organization, why doesn’t he say so? Where in the Bible does it say that? Staying close to our brothers, Yes! Close to the congregation of holy ones, Yes! But if an organization is so vital, why is the word expressing that important concept never used in the entirety of Holy Scripture?
“Choose life. Love Jehovah, and always be loyal to him and his organization.” (Simplified Edition)
Again, our eternal life is linked to loyalty and obedience to the organization. You could substitute Jesus for Jehovah in that sentence and it still holds true, because our Lord does nothing of his own initiative, but only what is pleasing to his Father. (John 8:28-30) The same can most emphatically not be said about the Organization which has often been shown to initiate teachings subsequently discredited as false, then excuse themselves saying they were only refinements. That would be fine if it were not for the fact that while doing this—and even acknowledging awareness of their own imperfection and sinful nature—they continue to demand the same type of loyalty due to God. One cannot help but think of the “two masters” analogy Jesus gave us. (Mt 6:24) That was predicated on the idea that each master would ask different things from us, forcing us to choose between them. By demanding the loyalty owed only to our heavenly Father, the Organization is placing us in the same quandary. For they have—and inevitably will again—ask us to do things that are contrary to Jehovah’s teachings.
Par. 14 – Brother Pryce Hughes…said that the most important lesson he learned was to stay close to Jehovah’s organization and not rely on human thinking.” The implication is that Jehovah’s organization does not engage in human thinking, but only reflects God’s thinking. A secondary implication is that we shouldn’t think for ourselves, but we should simply depend on what the organization tells us. The overall message of the article seems to be that we will be safe, happy, and blessed if we surrender our conscience and power of reason to the organization and do what they tell us to do.
Par. 15 – One tries to present the facts coldly and logically without emotionalism so as not to unduly influence the reader, but the opening statement of this paragraph is so outrageous, so disrespectful to God, that it is difficult to maintain a sense of detachment.
Keep Moving Ahead with God’s Organization
“Jehovah wants us to support his organization and accept adjustments in the way we understand Bible truth and in the way we preach.” (ws14 5/15 p. 25 par. 15 Simplified Edition)
We claim Jehovah chose his Organization and Jesus appointed his faithful and discreet slave back in 1919. Since then, the Organization has taught us that the end would come and the dead be resurrected in 1925; that the 1,000-year reign of Christ would likely begin in 1975; that the generation born in 1914 would live to see Armageddon. These are only a tiny fraction of the teachings which we have subsequently rejected as false. If we accept this paragraph’s opening statement, we must acknowledge that at the time of each false teaching Jehovah wanted us to believe them as true. He knew they were false, but he wanted us to accept them as true anyway. Therefore, Jehovah wanted to deceive us. The God who cannot lie wanted us to believe a lie. (He 6:18) The God who does not try anyone with evil was wanting us to be enticed by our desire for an early end to test our loyalty to his Organization when the prophesy failed to come true. (James 1:13-15)
Surely we are crossing a line with this statement.
Par. 16 – After wielding the stick of Armageddon, this paragraph offers the carrot of future blessings. “All who remain loyal to Jehovah and his organization will receive blessings.” Again, hitting the theme, “Listen, Obey, and Be Blessed”— which works fine if the one listened to and obeyed is God, but if it is a man-run organization…not so much. This paragraph is linked to a half-page illustration of the new world which we’ll get to if we stay in the organization. (p. 26, Simplified Edition) Nothing beats a pretty picture if you are trying to indoctrinate a child.
Par. 17 – “May each one of us stay close to Jehovah and move ahead with his organization.” Let us stay close to Jehovah. Yes! Most definitely! Let us also stay close to our brothers who are displaying the qualities of Christ. Let us be there to help them to see the light of God’s word. As for moving ahead with the Organization…well, there are only two roads Jesus spoke of. Before we jump onboard any vehicle, let’s make sure which one it’s on. The road leading to life is guarded by a narrow gate. I’m not sure something as big as the Organization would fit through. But individuals, Yes!
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[i] “Direction” is a euphemistic term we have long employed to mask the true nature of the directives from our leadership. Direction gives the idea of optional courses of action or suggestions—another euphemism also frequently used—when in fact tying our salvation to our compliance to this direction raises it above the level of counsel or advice to the status of orders from God.
[ii] For a fuller understanding of what this verse really refers to, see “What is the Role of Holy Spirit in Doctrinal Development?”
[iii] Another euphemism for changes, about-faces, and flip-flops. Our worst example of this is the 8-fold flip-flop on whether the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected or not.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Chris on 2014-07-29 16:45:49
I don't think it matters. Yes one is scriptural but only in English. Some call it a church, ecclesia, congregation, fellowship. Does it matter.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-07-30 10:01:28
IMO it absolutely matters. church, ecclesia, congregation, fellowship are all words that describe a spiritual group of God. Organization is not synonymous with any of those words. We do not work for a company or an organization …we are an assembled group of God’s people.
Comment by J.D. on 2014-07-29 17:21:31
"Under this subheading we state in the Simplified Edition: “After false religion is destroyed, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the only religious organization left on earth.”
it sounds like the infamous "New World Order".
It is "Hail Organization" now.
Why not "Hail Jesus Christ"? Acts 4:12!
:-(
Comment by Aurelius on 2014-07-29 19:44:22
Psalms 146 3-5 sums things up perfectly for me:
"3. Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.
5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,"
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Question: Is the so-called 'Jehovah's organisation 'administered / directed by "a son of man" aka humans?
If the answer is yes then it cannot bring salvation.
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Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation John 14:6:
"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Such a simple teaching!Reply by J.D. on 2014-07-30 05:12:31
Perhaps the teaching is too simple...
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-07-29 19:44:58
Meleti, I am intrigued and fascinated by your article. It is as if I am seeing it today through different eyes. I realize you are reviewing the material of the Watchtower study. I wonder, what is the purpose of your exposing of false teachings?
You keep referring to yourself as belonging to this organization by such terms as: "Why do we speak about"; "We do this evidently because”; "so we are contradicting ourselves"; "We again misapply Proverbs 4:18 to explain away our errors of the past."; "We would recognize"; "we would never want to attend one of those gatherings ourselves".
I hope you can see my point. Based on your message conveyed by this whole article, I would expect to see you using the word "they" instead of "we".
You expose things that are deceitful, misleading and misrepresentations, yet you include yourself to be one of them.. What purpose does this serve? I am frankly becoming confused because you seem to be contradicting your own self.
I believe your target audience is Jehovah's Witnesses. What is it you are expecting your audience to believe? Do they believe the words of the Watchtower, or do they believe your words? Your words are in contradiction of the Watchtower's words, yet you identify yourself as belonging to the Watchtower.
I don't mean to put you on the spot my brother. This article just makes it clear to me what a conundrum this puts your readers in.
Chris asked a thought provoking question, "Does it matter?"
It matters to me. I personally agree with your message of the subtle and sometimes outright untruths found in this Watchtower and without your article, I would not be as aware of the tactics and lengths the Watchtower goes to in order to keep Jehovah's Witnesses loyal to "The Organization".
How this must pain our Savior Jesus!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-29 21:14:07
I do not mean to cause confusion by my use of the first person plural. However, I feel it serves a purpose. I still attend meetings because I'm not willing to abandon my brothers at this stage. Perhaps that time will come, but for now, I reason as Paul taught us:
"And so to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, that I might gain those under law...that I might by all means save some." (1 Cor. 9:20,22)
I have no illusions about fixing the Organization. Nor do I believe that Jehovah will fix it anymore than he fixed the Jewish organization at the time of Christ. However, if by continued association with others, I can in some small way help others as I have been helped, then it is a small sacrifice for me to make.Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-07-30 02:26:31
I too include myself among the flawed beliefs I know presently, mainly because I once believed them and taught them. But now that I have been awakened to the true "truth", how can I expect those I've known and taught such things to immediately come to the same understanding I hold presently?
This is a period of transition for many. A lonely road in search of Christ and his true teachings apart from a group of men. While I accepted the teachings of a group of men before coming to Christ, it wasn't until my awakening to our main dogma, i.e., that none are entitled to unity with Christ but those in a tightly controlled body of Christ. This is, of course, so restrictive a covenant unique to our organization, it excludes all who say our unity with Christ is in conflict since it serves to separate us from Christ while strengthening unity to a hierarchy of men.
So I think that these circumstances make Paul's words quoted by Meleti even more meaningful: “And so to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, that I might gain those under law (even if it is laws of a hierarchy of men)…that I might by all means save some.” (1 Cor. 9:20,22)
And lest we forget, Paul began his argument that we should "be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" by saying Christ had become divided because of following men. (1 Corinthians 1:10-15) . .
swReply by menrov on 2014-07-30 04:31:16
Meleti, Smolderingwick1, I agree with your approach although it's most difficult at times, Paul must have suffered being among Jews and Greek, just to win a few. At times, I am struggling what to do and now reading the word from Paul you quoted, it gives me strength and hope to help a few others.
Reply by kev c on 2014-07-30 15:01:15
Meleti let me start by saying what a great job you are doing on this site i think your explanation of the scriptures seen to be for the most part in harmony with the real truth of the bible With regard to your comments about not abandoning the brothers and your use of 1 corinthians 9 v 20 22 i can understand that as welll i felt the same way for quite a few years . However the problem that i felt was that i couldnt really help my brothers if i had to keep quiet about some really important biblical truths i had learned . Such as the The importance of being baptised in the holy spirit .and that of partaking of the bread and wine .and a few other important home truths without which i just cannot see how a person can can claim even to be a christian let alone please god . I honestly feel as i read my bible with an open mind that the vast majority of jehovahs witnesses are in a very dangerous situation spiritually similar to many of the jews of pauls day they do have a zeal for god but not according to accurate knowledge ..I realised like paul that i was never going to save some unless i told them what i had learned .The majority of those who i thought were my brothers whom i worked so hard for have now disowned me and treat me like a leper .but not all . I am convinced that those who are lovers of the real truth will take note of what i said and start to get a hold on the the real message from the bible kev
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-08-01 00:45:47
You are more than welcome Meleti .I am truly grateful that you did remain in the organization because it's served a purpose for me. I have personally used your example to awaken others in a discreet manner.(including my immediate family )
If my dear sister and friend had been disfellowshipped or left the organization before helping me I would be lost. There's no way I would have listened to her if she was talking against the organization and she was inactive. I would have surely haughtily viewed myself as spiritually strong and her as spiritually weak. I say this because when I look back ...a few others have discreetly and casually tried to awaken me before and I have strongly opposed them. I wasn't ready for the truth. I have even been guilty of "spiritually stoning" such ones. So I identify with "Saul" in that way .
But I also identify with Paul and his "awakening".Jesus literally blinded him to get him to wake up spiritually ! There was no other way "Saul" could have been reached with the gospel. At some point , it became very clear to Paul that he had to cut ties with the Pharisees....and he eventually did.
Jehovah uses us. We are merely vessels. I brought people in the " truth"now I believe I have the responsibility to lead those who are receptive to the real and only "truth" Jesus Christ. (John 14:6) If Jehovah can use me to awaken others in the organization... I will gladly do so. As you said.. this truly a small sacrifice vs. The sacrifices I have made for men (GB). No one is better equipped for the task of awakening other than fellow witnesses. There's no way JW's would listen to "outsiders" or "apostates". I'm a preacher at my core. I credit Jehovah for that gift and ironically the GB for teaching me how to effectively preach to others :)People were awaken before me and they will be after me. When Jehovah tells me it's enough...then it's enough. I am fully confident that Jehovah will make it clear to me when and if I should leave. He's brought me this far....
If I could make a small suggestion.... You may want to consider updating your bio to include a brief reason as to why you are still currently an active witness. I believe the comment you made about your desire to help others within the organization might do the trick ;)
Reply by kev c on 2014-08-01 03:54:15
Gods word with regard to your comment next up about meleti staying in the org interesting stuff .thanks for that insight . Its so great to be able to see things through the eyes of others kev
Reply by miken on 2014-07-30 17:05:26
"However, if by continued association with others, I can in some small way help others as I have been helped, then it is a small sacrifice for me to make"
Meleti your articles on several aspects of false Watchtower doctrine, practices and their history have crystalized and verified much of my own research. Exposing false teachings can be beneficial but of itself does not lead to personal salvation. Only by "coming" to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39, 40; 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). We are then in a position to come to "know" both the Father and Jesus Christ personally and intimately (John 17:3). and also in a position to "eat the flesh and drink the blood" of Christ (John 6:53-58; 1Cor 11:23-26). Jesus becomes our mediator (1 Tim 2:5) and we become beneficiaries of the "new covenant". and become sons and children of the Father not just his friend (Rom 8:12-17).
The society have consistently applied John 6:68, 69 to themselves (“Know that there is no other organization that has Jehovah’s blessing and favour”.—John 6:68. Watchtower October 15, 2013, page 20) and in doing so usurped the role of Christ.
I believe Jehovah’s witnesses believe and practice a significant amount of true bible based teachings and for the most part live a moral life trying to practice the fruits of the spirit (Gal 5: 22,23). They have a zeal for God but as Paul said of the Jews “not according to accurate knowledge” ( Rom 10:2; 2 Tim 3:7). For the most part they are very sincere about what they believe but sincerity does not mean what is believed is all necessarily true as they claim.
Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6). However we cannot "come" to Christ unless drawn to him by the Father. The Father draws us to him (John 6:44, 6; 1 Cor 1:9) and gives us to him ((John 6:37).
I recently "came to Christ". Jesus Christ is my saviour, shepherd (John 10: 27, 28) Lord, Leader, Master, Mediator (1Tim 2: 4-5) and Friend (John 1:14, 15). Consequently I have disassociated myself from JW,s after 26 years of active association. I am now following the direction of the Lord Jesus regarding Christian fellowship and spiritual support and relying on the Holy Spirit in following him.
Meleti your articles as well as my own scriptural reading and research have helped me come to a position where Christ could free me (John 8:36) from an organization which clearly is not what it claims to be, the only true channel of communication between the Father, Jesus Christ and mankind. I hope and pray that your own journey brings you to the same point.
Reply by Sargon on 2014-07-30 22:03:05
The only reason i began reading this site during my awakening was because meleti was an elder at the time. He wasn't a mentally diseased apostate, nor was he bitter. I found it ironic that he had come to many of the same conclusions as me. Had he not been an active witness or an elder, I probably would have dismissed his site. So i think there is still good that can be done by remaining in the organization, as long as you don't do anything that violates your conscience.
Reply by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-07-30 23:28:02
Sargon, you said "The only reason i began reading this site during my awakening was because meleti was an elder at the time. He wasn’t a mentally diseased apostate, nor was he bitter. I found it ironic that he had come to many of the same conclusions as me. Had he not been an active witness or an elder, I probably would have dismissed his site. So i think there is still good that can be done by remaining in the organization, as long as you don’t do anything that violates your conscience."
I'd like to thank you for your comment and sharing how this site has helped you, as it has helped many of us. I'm glad that it helped you in your waking up to truth.
Do you believe that all apostates are mentally diseased? How can you tell that someone is a mentally diseased apostate? Or are you basing that comment on "JW thinking?" I don't mean to put you on the spot, I am just curious about your comment and what you base it on.
I was drawn to this site after I started reading. When I first glanced at it, I thought it was a JW apologist site where JW's were preparing for meetings together and I was curious as to current teachings. It wasn't until I started reading an article in depth, that I realized it was actually exposing hypocrisy in the organization. I'm certainly glad that I looked deeper, else I might have missed the treasure here.
I have learned so much, it has helped me grow spiritually and has helped to cement my faith. It seems the more I learn, the more I find out just how much i don't know. I really enjoy the diversity on here. For me, this site has become my (almost) daily Bible study and it has lead to much more Bible reading than ever before. I find that I love reading the Bible, as opposed to when it became like a chore that had to be done.
Without a doubt, for me, it is the Christian love and kindness to each other that keeps me here.
Reply by Sargon on 2014-07-31 10:00:54
I was using "mentally diseased apostate" in a sarcastic way. According to the watchtower I'm now a mentally diseased apostate. None of my friends or family know how diseased I am, because I continue you to treat them in the kind respectful way I always have. The only thing that's changed is how I view the organization and my understanding of the bible.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-07-31 10:32:19
I agree with you Sargon . I know that the sister that directed me to this site knew that the ONLY I way I would be intrigued enough to visit BP site was because Meleti was an active witness and an elder at the time. Even then…. It took me 6 months to build up the courage to finally look at it . I was not interested in “apostate” sites at all. I was so blind that I was fully prepared to reason with her about viewing apostate sites.
I know in my heart that this sister waited until I was not in full kool aid mode to approach me. It was only after I confided in her a few times that I had deep reservations about the teachings that she felt comfortable enough to tell me about this site. I was struggling . I honestly believed that Jehovah disapproved of me because I did not agree with his “ slave”. However after hearing a talk at an assembly where we were told that questioning the teachings from the slave was tantamount to questioning Jehovah in my heart… I was ready to search for answers.
Matthew 7:7-8 ESV
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Jeremiah 29:13 ESV
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Hosea 12:6 ESV
“So you, by the help of your God, return, hold fast to love and justice, and wait continually for your God.”
All these scriptures have one theme in common… action is required on the part of a person to want to seek truth. I was begging God for answers but was essentially telling Him that I am prepared to only get answers from if they came through the slave. When I was ready he moved me to dig deeper. I went through stages of complete denial, guilt and intense grief during my awakening.
I apologize in advance if I offend anyone for the following….
Why do people care so much about Meleti or Apollos leaving the JW organization? Why is it anyone’s business? I appreciate that Meleti has chosen to give an answer to these question but I personally wish he would stop answering these questions. I may be wrong but I believe that what some people really want to say ( without saying it ) is that they believe that it ‘s hypocritical for Meleti or Apollos to expose wrongdoing or false teachings of the GB and stay in the organization. Meleti or Apollos does not have to answer to any of us . They are not leading a revolt against the organization AFAIK. The decision to leave or stay is a personal choice.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-31 11:26:21
Thank you, GodsWordIsTruth, for your encouraging and thoughtful words. That convention part you mention was a turning point for me as well. I remember that I felt like weeping, and I'm not a man given to tears. I think it was also something of a tipping point for the organization. We seem now to be on a downward slope and accelerating.
I especially appreciate your final paragraph, as I've been thinking along similar lines. Having grown up in an autocratic and controlling organization which is now attempting to exercise control over our lives like never before, I rejoice in finally finding freedom. That others wish to impose their opinions as to what is right and wrong for me or anyone else to do is unacceptable. It would be like returning to the mire of the past.
Each one has to determine what is right for himself or herself based on his or her own understanding of scripture, own relationship with God and own situation. I'm confident that there will come a time when we will have to "get out of Jerusalem", but God will make it clear to each of us when that time comes.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-07-31 12:00:39
Crossroads. You arrive when you are being judged as disloyal from both sides. Everyone leaves you because they cannot take the road you've taken or suffer the consequential loneliness that will follow, while you search with supplications for the spirit to manifest the true ways of your heart. My contention has always been that it is Satan who demands we be sifted as wheat and that only when we know that he is the true enemy (and not those who judge us) will the spirit arrive to give what we need. Each day is a new day. Each day we pray for the spirit and one another to take our minds and hearts away from such feelings of insecurity.
Remember that Christ was given ALL authority UNTIL his due time to restore and return ALL things back to his Father intact. We humans are short-lived and tire easily, but Jehovah is looking for more in us than we even know exists within ourselves, which is why we need revelations that we beseech, appeal and plead for to give us the strength. Over such things I pray daily for all lost sheep.
sw
Reply by Chris on 2014-07-30 08:45:25
I don't mean "does it matter" as in does my salvation matter. I asked "does it matter" whether you call it a congregation, fellowship, ecclesia, house of worship. It doesn't matter. And I do disagree with that only the Jehovah's Witnesses religion will survive. When Jesus came the first time Judaism became obsolete. When he comes back the WT will be obsolete. And the true knowledge of Jehovah will flood the earth
Comment by SilverTop on 2014-07-29 22:23:23
This article makes me wonder why the brothers are so quick to ask, 'Do you believe that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the channel which Jehovah is using today to conduct the preaching work.' If and when the brothers ask me this question, my answer will probably be, "Is this the barometer you use to measure a person's spirituality, their loyalty to a man-made organization?" I know that will make them angry, but oh well...
Reply by Chris on 2014-07-30 08:50:32
Okay!!!!!!! When I was talking about me being a Christian I was asked "Do you believe the Governing Body is the FADS?" Um Where is Jesus in this.
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-07-30 03:38:47
My reasoning is that if we are exposing the false teachings of the Organisation to our brothers and sisters, we must also be careful that we do not take those false teachings to those we meet in the door-to-door ministry.
Reply by menrov on 2014-07-30 04:38:02
Fully agree Jannai40. My approach is that I just take my bible, look up a text I like to share, and ask every person if I can read the text to them. In I guess over 95% of the cases, I am allowed. My focus is on positive, encouraging texts, that will or can make people actually feel good, as that is why it is called Good News.
Very often a short conversation follows. I do not offer any magazines nor a bible study. In future, if the person is really interested to learn more, I will offer to help to explain and answer his questions. With every person I talk to, I do encourage them to read the bible. And yes, I either work alone or with my wife (who knows my position but not yet is on the same page :-)).
Reply by Chris on 2014-07-30 08:53:32
I don't go door to door. Your response in dishonest. I can't go to the door with mormons, say a few true things about God and then they come to their church. Whether what I said at the door was true or not I just drew then to a religion that is false. Like a trail to a trap
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 09:02:15
I am using menrov's technique. I don't identify myself as a Jehovah's Witness, but merely as a Christian. If pressed by the household, I explain that I don't believe God can be best served through any organized church because invariably one ends up obeying men over God.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-07-30 23:11:41
From my perspective, I don't deny being a Jehovah’s Witness. And I am honest in saying that much of what I learned that was untrue in Christendom was illuminated to me by Jehovah’s Witnesses. I give credit where credit is due but remind everyone to whom I preach that we must continue to be like children in the eyes of Christ. We must continue to accept the reproof of others as it comes and correct our mistakes, thus rejoining Christ on the path of corrective righteousness.
sw
Comment by menrov on 2014-07-30 04:49:04
Now regarding the actual article. I read it before Meleti published his analysis. I guess not really a surprise that Meleti addressed about the same points I stumbled upon when reading the article. At the same time, the article gave me some sort of a sad feeling. Sad in the sense that it "silenced" me, like when you see or hear something that you need to digest first before you realize what you have actually heard or seen. I am glad that Meleti still has the energy and time to do these analyses. Because I really hope it will reach many sincere people in the organisation like it reached me and others on here.
Comment by Thinking on 2014-07-30 05:40:41
I agree that this article is very problematic. I will have to conduct it over the weekend.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 08:22:10
I really don't envy you that task.
Reply by Thinking on 2014-07-30 16:29:11
Not sure what I will say, maybe gloss over the dodgy bits!
Reply by on 2014-08-13 15:03:59
I find raising a question in the minds of the friends while conducting gets them to think. For example, when we were discussing the celestial chariot, I commented, "I thought it was interesting that the scripture in Ezekiel doesn't actually say it's a chariot, does it?" Or, during Bible Highlights on John 10, I said, "It could be that Jesus is referring to the Gentiles as the "other sheep". After all, he is speaking to the Pharasees, isn't he?" I got wawy with that one.
Comment by Mailman on 2014-07-30 05:55:45
I have read and re-read, experienced goosebumps and found myself shaking my head on several direct assertions and open admissions by the WT. Following are the 2 paragraphs that really caught my attention:
3 After false religion is destroyed, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the only religious organization left on earth. Then Satan and his world will attack God’s servants.(WT Study Article, Simplified Edition).
Comment: This is very direct and bold statement though it did not appear on the same WT English Study version. It is self-explanatory: Only JWs are to survive Armaggedon. Interestingly, we can find from JW.ORG the following answer to this question:
Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?
No. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “"there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.
Any reader would find it confusing to see this official response from Jw.org and relate to what the WT has declared.
15 If we are to have Jehovah’s favor and blessing as individuals, we must support his organization and accept adjustments in our understanding of the Scriptures...Consider this: After Jesus’ death, there were thousands of Jewish Christians who were zealous for the Law and found it hard to break free from it. (Acts 21:17-20) With the help of Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, however, they accepted the fact that they had been sanctified, not by means of sacrifices “offered according to the Law,” but “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” (Heb. 10:5-10) Undoubtedly, most of those Christians of Jewish descent adjusted their thinking and moved ahead spiritually. . We too need to study diligently and be open-minded when there are adjustments in the understanding of God’s Word or in our preaching work.
In addition, WT Simplified Edition on page 25 prints in bold: The only way to have Jehovah's favor is ALWAYS to follow the direction of his organization.
Comments and Questions: Where is the scriptural support for this assertion? Or is this solely a GB statement? 15 If we are to have Jehovah’s favor and blessing as individuals, we must support his organization and accept adjustments in our understanding of the Scriptures.
Where is the role of Lord Jesus Christ now for a person to find favor from God?
On the other hand, following key scriptures would guide us on how to get to Jehovah, gain His approval and blessings:
“Jesus said to him: ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.’” – John 14:6-7
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7: 21-22
1My son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commands in your heart, 2for they will prolong your life many years and bring you peace and prosperity. - Prov. 3:1, 2
Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. - Prov. 3: 3-4
9Honor the Lord with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; 10then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine. - Prov. 3: 9, 10
For the Lord detests the perverse but takes the upright into his confidence. 33The Lord’s curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the home of the righteous. 34He mocks proud mockers but shows favor to the humble and oppressed. - Prov. 3: 32-34
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.- Prov. 19: 17
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. - Luke 6: 35
Let me point out as well that Paul's teachings about the superiority of Christ's ransom sacrifice over the Mosaic Law practices is much different from merely understanding of the scriptures as being done by the Governing Body. Paul was not certainly explaining a new understanding from the Scriptures but complementing, reinforcing and justifying Jesus Christ's teachings, specifically the impact of his ransom sacrifice on the Jews who were still solid believers of the Law at that time. That it is not necessary for them to offer burnt sacrifices was emphasized. Hence, Paul is not interpreting nor reinterpreting (as if a new light has come upon him) what has already been written.
What happens now also to Jesus Christ's promise at Matthew 24: 13:
" But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. " It would seem there is no need of endurance up to the end for as long as one is obeying the Organization or the Faithful Slave, and he is part of Jehovah's Organization, then he will find God's favor and blessings, entitling him a safe pass to survive Armageddon."Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 08:23:11
By the way, Mailman, thank you for pointing out the Simplified vs. Standard Edition differences. I'm going to read them both from now on whenever there is a controversial article to review.
Reply by Mailman on 2014-07-30 08:32:46
Much welcome dear brother. :)
Comment by menrov on 2014-07-30 05:59:04
One point I like to add. If you read about the golden calf and the purpose for the golden calf, (Exodus 32), you can see it was for the Lord (Jehovah/yahweh). Does the intention / purpose justify the act? We all can see how not pleased the Lord was.
We say we do not celebrate Christmas as it is from pagan origin. However, others who support Christmas say it draws people to Jesus. Does the intention / purpose justify the act?
My point is, setting up an organisation to worship Jehovah,is not asked by Him nor by is Son. Question, does the intention / purpose justify the act?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 08:25:17
An excellent comparison, menrov. The Organization if fond of quoting the Scriptural phrase "he did just so" when calling for our obedience to them, but are they 'doing just so' themselves, or are they justifying their actions in the way you suggest.
Comment by Narwhal on 2014-07-30 06:30:20
Regarding Pauls ministry, was he not personally called out by the Lord for this work? Its often heard being said that when God makes appointments, there is evidence to show this; then some go on to add this evidence is lacking in the 'appointment' of the org - so my question to Meleti is: who appoints you to a Paulian roll? Or is it self-placed?
Also, to place in context the above reference “The only way to have Jehovah’s favor is always to follow the direction of his organization.” this is attributed to a brother referred to in the article, Pryce Hughes, and not from the org itself. Although granted, still with the aim of making the connection of salvation and the org. I also think, whilst worded differently in each, that the same point is in each article, regular and simplified wt 15 May 2014 pp26-30 para 14Reply by menrov on 2014-07-30 07:29:33
As question is posed to Meleti, I will let him answer. However, with regards to Paul's appointment, it is clear he received evidence of his appointment: Acts 9:8 So Saul got up from the ground, but although his eyes were open, he could see nothing. Leading him by the hand, his companions brought him into Damascus. 9 For three days he could not see, and he neither ate nor drank anything.
10 Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias,” and he replied, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 Then the Lord told him, “Get up and go to the street called ‘Straight,’ and at Judas’ house look for a man from Tarsus named Saul. For he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and place his hands on him so that he may see again.”
So, it was not Paul who made it clear that he was now appointed but the Lord via Ananias did this for example.
I do not believe anyone on this site made ever a claim to be appointed by the Lord. The organisation on the other hand, continues to make that claim.Reply by Narwhal on 2014-07-30 10:49:35
Hello menrov,
Thanks for the reply,
I was not questioning Pauls appointment, as yes, that was part of my reasoning.
What prompted my question was Meleti's reply and scripture to imacountrygirl2:
“And so to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, that I might gain those under law…that I might by all means save some.” (1 Cor. 9:20,22)
..in particular, 'that I might by all means save some'. That could sound a little pedantic, and that is not my wish. I have enjoyed most of Meleti's articles and do agree with most, including the one attached to these comments.
When trust is involved, I believe it only right to be allowed to ask the necessary questions.
Meleti, avoiding bread rolls may help reduce the 'Paulian roll' :P
Thanks too for your replyReply by Narwhal on 2014-07-30 10:51:23
pedantic on my part, not the statement I was quoting from meleti's reply.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 11:07:46
If only broccoli tasted like hot buttered toast!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 08:43:29
>>who appoints you to a Paulian roll? Or is it self-placed?
I cannot answer the question because I don't accept the premise. I am not performing a Pauline role. I certainly don't claim any special appointment from Jesus. Whatever appointment I have is the same one we all have. We have been appointed by the Lord to proclaim him until he arrives. (1 Co 11:26; Mt 28:18-20) So when we learn of teaching which is contrary and untrue, we all have the obligation to us God's word to 'overturn strongly entrenched falsehoods and bring every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ'. (2 Co 10:4-6)
We all have different gifts from the Lord. "In proportion as each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God's undeserved kindness expressed in various ways." The crime would be to not use whatever gift we've received to serve our King. We do this not for our own glory, but "so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ." (1 Pe 4:10, 11)
On the other hand, if you're referring to my middle-aged "Paulian roll", well, that is self-placed, but I'm hoping to lose it if I can just stay on this wretched diet.
Reply by BeenMislead on 2014-07-30 09:02:44
To Narwhal:
I have not read anywhere that Meleti claims an appointment of any kind.
Jehovah’s Witnesses on the other hand, definitely claim an appointment.
“When did Jesus appoint the faithful slave over his domestics? To answer that, we need to go back to 1914—the beginning of the harvest season. As we learned earlier, at that time many groups claimed to be Christian. From which group would Jesus select and appoint the faithful slave? That question was answered after he and his Father came and inspected the temple, or spiritual arrangement for worship, from 1914 to the early part of 1919.* (Mal. 3:1) They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word. Of course, they needed some cleansing, but they humbly responded during a brief period of testing and refining. (Mal. 3:2-4) Those faithful Bible Students were true Christian wheat. In 1919, a time of spiritual revival, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers from among them to be the faithful and discreet slave and appointed them over his domestics.” - (Watchtower 2013, 7/15, Pg. 23, Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?)
Comment by Mailman on 2014-07-30 07:27:28
Hi Menrov, good morning! Or shall the end justify the means? You have raised a question that can be a subject of debate or another round of discussions. I have listed down several scriptures which are relevant to the WT study article and your post. These are deserving our personal reflection:
Jeremiah 17:10 (NIV) "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
Acts 1:24
Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen.
Romans 2:6
God "will repay each person according to what they have done."
Proverbs 21:2
A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.
Luke 16: 15
He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight.
Ultimately I guess God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ would know the intentions of a man's heart. Let God be our ultimate Judge.
For celebrating Christmas when we know its pagan origin, technically it's un-Christian. To celebrate it and turn to be more materialistic, it is un-Christian. But if the occasion helps a Christian to reflect about God and love for family, and enables him to share his blessings to others unselfishly - then I guess God would notice his heart and bless him in a positive way. Jehovah God himself is a happy God. He likes his followers to gain happiness from being a cheerful giver. He is giving not because he is imagining pagan god Saturnalia. He is doing it because he is moved by his heart to share and become happy from doing it.
“There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving,” - Acts 20: 35. Why would Jehovah judge us to be wicked just because we are sharing our gifts on a specific day or month (e.g. Christmas season)? Unless we are giving out of selfish motives, our Father will be more than delighted to see us expressing our love to others.Reply by menrov on 2014-07-30 07:33:28
Hi Mailman, thanks and good morning to you too. Indeed, l think it would be a best to raise a separate topic: "does the ends justify the means" from Gods point of view.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 08:45:23
That would make a good topic for www.discussthetruth.com
Reply by menrov on 2014-07-30 08:48:24
done
Reply by Chris on 2014-07-30 09:08:01
Well of celebrating Christmas helps is better to love God then why not Christianize Halloween? Why not JW-ize the rosary? Why not Christianize all of Paganism? It draws us closer to God right? Wrong.
Reply by J.D. on 2014-07-30 09:37:14
"It draws us closer to God right? Wrong."
Thank You :-)
The same one sister said, watching all spirit /-ism Films is ok if it bring me "closer to God". That´s wrong too - dangerous and absolutely wrong!
Reply by Narwhal on 2014-07-30 10:58:01
I can't help but think about the experience described in Exodus 32 and in particular verse 5, when considering 'christianising' a practice that may be displeasing to God. This surely, as mentioned already by Chris, would mean we can excuse any practice in the belief that as long as it shows some christian connection it is acceptable? Or, am I led to believe that God no longer has standards?
Reply by Narwhal on 2014-07-30 11:04:15
this reply to mailman, by the way.
Comment by Sargon on 2014-07-30 09:09:11
As a side note brother Pryce Hughes died in 1978. This quote is from his life story which appeared back then. Why they are using such an old quote I do not know. Imagine how disappointed he would be to learn that he's no longer part of the faithful and discreet slave, and that the 1914 generation is all dead.
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-07-30 13:47:21
Just like to make an observation if I may, thank you. When a brother is at someone's door taking part in the field service ministry, the very fact that you are there identifies you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, does it not?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-07-30 14:01:05
Since we are pretty much the only ones still going door-to-door, it does. One way to avoid that is to introduce yourself as a Christian. You could start off explaining you are not a JW, but I don't like to start a discussion with a stranger using a denial. If asked, you could explain you are not there as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, if you do that while working with a practicing JW, you are going to be in front of a judicial committee within the week.
Once the August tract campaign is over--I'm not participating--I plan to go out in service without a tie. That will distinguish me from JWs visually and open up the householder to a free discussion since he'll see me going to the door tieless and caseless.Reply by J.D. on 2014-07-30 14:33:41
Dear Meleti,
"I plan to go out in service without a tie. That will distinguish me from JWs visually and open up the householder to a free discussion since he’ll see me going to the door tieless and caseless."
Please tell me the responses then (sorry for language but i´m sure You know what i mean) :-)
Regards
Reply by menrov on 2014-07-30 16:14:28
For some months I have dumped my tie and case when in field service. Only my bible.
Reply by on 2014-08-13 14:42:28
I mentioned at thre meeting for service that we should have a space on our field service report slip that reads, "Scriptures Read to Householder". The friends said, "Why not?"
Comment by johnamos880 on 2014-07-30 16:10:27
Quote- That Jehovah’s people—his congregation, the ones he has called out of the world—will remain is beyond dispute as it is well attested to in the Bible. However, the Organization is another thing. Revelation describes Babylon the Great as being stripped naked, eaten up and burned. (Re 17:16; 18:8) We have often predicted that religions like the Catholic church will be stripped of all their wealth. Their buildings will be torn down and destroyed, their assets will be taken from them, their leadership attacked and killed. Many witnesses imagine that this storm of destruction will pass us by; that we will emerge with our buildings, finances, and religious hierarchy intact and ready to proceed with a final condemnatory message of judgment. If that turns out not to be the case—if, as the Bible and Christian history shows, it is individuals who are spared—what will be the result for so many who have put faith in an organization? Where will they go, having depended on men for so long for their salvation? – End quote
http://johnamos880.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/httpwol-jw-orgenwoldr1lp-e2014367/Reply by bystander on 2014-07-30 17:26:53
I read the article you linked. I agree with Ciro. I'm expecting to lose everything during the GT. Hopefully Jehovah will provide me with manna and water.
Reply by johnamos880 on 2014-07-30 18:28:18
Quote- I agree with Ciro. – End quote
More importantly, is that Ciro agrees with Joel. :)
It’s sad but in away amazing how blind people can be. The WTS/GB are and have been having their cake and eating too. (1 Corinthians 4:8) They have been able to warn about there being an attack but conceal that it is because Jehovah has issues with his people. (Ezekiel 13:8-10, Jeremiah 5:31, Ezekiel 39:23, 24, Isaiah 29:13, Joel 3:21, Isaiah 29:15)Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-07-31 03:01:40
I recall my own conversation with Ciro as far back as 1995 when he told me in frustration that the governing body had already begun sitting upon the throne of Christ.
Comment by Semper Fi on 2014-07-30 20:15:39
Hello everyone, I believe I've found a problem with this articles in paragraphs seven and eight. According to the article, 2,707,000 have been baptized from the years 2003 to 2012. This growth was deemed remarkable, and presented as evidence of God's backing and blessing on this organization.
However, my research with readily available statistics from the Yearbooks (1988-2012) revealed something different to me. In 1988, the peak amount of publishers were ~3.6 million. In 2012, the peak publishers were ~7.9 million. However, the average baptisms per year in that 25 year period ranged only from 239,268 (1988) to
375,923 (1997), with an average of 290,538. From this information, it was clear to me that the amount of baptisms per year is lagging behind the amount of peak publishers significantly, and that there is no correlation between the two.
Additionally, more hours of field service are being reported (785,521,697 in 1988, to 1,748,697,447 in 2012) and yet no increase in the publisher to baptism ratio is being produced. And to sum it all up, the percent growth has been in steady decline as well (from 6% in 1988 to 2% in 2012).
If this "growth" was as remarkable as we are told it is, I would expect to see a rise in the amount baptized every year. This rise should be fueled by the increase in both publishers and in hours reported. Yet I can see no such thing.
While I have some community college level training in statistics, I am not an expert, and I am certainly open to any comments or critique of this little analysis.
The quoted statistics can be obtained here: http://www.fileflyer.com/view/9xNJDBW
Sorry about all the numbers!
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-07-30 23:41:14
"From my perspective, I don’t deny being a Jehovah’s Witness. And I am honest in saying that much of what I learned that was untrue in Christendom was illuminated to me by Jehovah’s Witnesses. I give credit where credit is due but remind everyone to whom I preach that we must continue to be like children in the eyes of Christ. We must continue to accept the reproof of others as it comes and correct our mistakes, thus rejoining Christ on the path of corrective righteousness."
smolderingwick1, If you don't mind my asking, by identifying yourself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, how do you handle issues like the United Nations scandal or the Candace Conti sexual abuse law suit against the Watchtower? Or, is most of the public not even aware of those issues?Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-07-31 03:57:49
Hello imacountrygirl2, and yes your question is quite valid. Had I resigned association with a previous religion to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses; had JW simply been a branding label to me, yes, I would resign completely. However, Jehovah has always been real and dear to me....not just a label slapped onto me at baptism only to be ripped off by three men during some backroom judicial process. I took my baptism more seriously than any vow. I still do. So if some board of directors chooses to change the terms and conditions of their induction process at some later date then it is the one to whom they dedicated their organization they must answer.
“You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes up His name in a worthless way." (Exodus 20:7) That still applies today. If the governing body has chosen a less than honest approach and chooses to change their declared mandate, then it is they who must answer for such things as joining the U.N. and every other organizational disaster they have undertaken. The best I can do is repent for my own sins and not those who built the corporate fence around themselves.
Christian love and affection,
sw
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-07-30 23:55:46
Semper Fi, I've d/l the spreadsheets, but it will take time to absorb the numbers. I have to say all the work you put into coming up with your figures is nothing short of a labor of love.
Another factor to consider is that children are being baptized at a much earlier age, which no doubt inflates the numbers as far as Bible Studies versus children of JWs.
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-07-31 03:36:35
If a brother was out on field service with the purpose in mind of only teaching from God's Word - well and good. But what if that person he was preaching to ended up at the Kingdom Hall?
Reply by menrov on 2014-07-31 04:24:59
If someone ends up visiting a KH as a result of teaching that person from God's word (I wonder why that person would decide to visit a KH as the study is purely based on the bible and only the bible is used), it is up that person to evaluate what he hears and sees there. If I would be teaching that person, I guess I would not feel bad as it was that persons' own decision to visit. Similar if the study would motivate him to visit another denomination.
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-07-31 05:32:20
Menrov,
Yes, I agree it would seem a bit strange if someone arrived at the Kingdom Hall purely as a result of someone teaching them from God's Word! However, would the situation not be a bit different if a person was teaching someone from God's Word and at the same standing at their door on the field service ministry arrangement of Jehovah's Witnesses. If the person was interested to what you were telling from God's Word, would they not assume that a good place to find out more would be to attend the church from which you are from, that is, as far as they are concerned is the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses.Reply by menrov on 2014-07-31 05:49:02
Hi, may best to open a topic on the discussion site. Agree?
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-08-01 03:12:38
Menrov,
I realise, of course, that it's not up to me as to whether a topic should be opened on the discussion board. However, to be perfectly honest I have found that with regard to this question - no matter how many times you ask it, or in how many different ways - you never actually seem to get an answer. This is not meant as a criticism towards anyone, and I hope that no one will take it that way.
Comment by Christian on 2014-08-01 13:14:26
The answer may lie in understanding that Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as much a part of the dragnet than any other ‘christian’ organization.
Our focus must be on bringing people to a relationship with Christ, not an organization, and that individuals are ‘called’ by him not us.
On the face of it this seems to be an excuse not to join in the preaching work of JW or any other group we feel are preaching falsehoods. But many other groups are closer to Christ than many JW's will ever be, despite their misguided teachings on the Trinity etc, because they apply the fruits of the spirit genuinely without all the chest beating and posturing that the WTS indulges in.
When you stop and look at the claim that they are “appointed by God” in the hard light of reality it becomes clear that this is a truly pompous and self-righteous claim.
In Matthew 25:37 Jesus is asked “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
In this illustration the truly righteous did not know what they had done to earn approval because they were busy helping others, not running around saying “Look at us we are approved by God. Join us or die at Armageddon”. “Recognize the GB as Christ’s brothers and yield to their direction to be saved”
These men are truly arrogant, self-righteous and yes dare I say it…….anti-christ!
So I completely understand Meleti and others to staying discreetly within “the organization” to help others to find Christ, but it cannot last forever, at some point we will all have to openly declare Christ. Some have already reached that point and have been dis-fellowshipped by men and consider it all joy to declare our true Master.
This is not a unique predicament, many thousands of Christians within the dragnet have died rather than deny Christ. The recent case of the Sudanese Christian woman who was prepared to die in prison rather than deny Christ is a sobering reminder of the faith we will require at some point.
My two cents worth :)Reply by seeker4godskingdom on 2014-08-05 06:14:24
Yes Christian , God's commandment is clear and in action :
Zechariah 2:7. Ho Zion, escape, thou that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
(yes, the members of "Zion" should recognize the time for this action )
as also the general command in Rev 18:4 .
Greetings to you !
Comment by Jannai40 on 2014-08-01 14:39:06
Christian,
Thank you.
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-08-01 15:55:04
Christian, I enjoyed your post and I really appreciate your reminder about our faith. Thank you.
Comment by kev c on 2014-08-03 05:28:59
Hahaha ive just took the time to readtodays watchtower study . Think i counted 28 times the word organisation is mentioned in the article 6 times before we even get to the second paragraph . Wow thats some serious brain programming .
Comment by bobcat3 on 2014-08-03 11:34:25
Just a little more on regarding a search of the WTLibrary. I searched for "organiz*" so as to widen the possible returns. Here is what I got:
rNWT - Ex 38:8; 1 Chr 23:6; 2 Chr 8:16; 26:11
NWT - Ex 38:8; Pr 9:2; Ezek 21:10
WT - 14642 hits
Aw - 3508
Books - 1873
Yearbooks - 2862
OKM - 1767
Total from pubs - 24652
Total from Bible - rNWT=4 NWT=3
BobcatReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-08-03 13:42:39
Indicating that even the concept of being organized isn't a big issue in the bible. Thanks, Bobcat.
Reply by menrov on 2014-08-03 15:16:57
It is not used in other translations....
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-08-03 16:28:21
Interesting. Another indication of organization bias in our translation?
Comment by bobcat3 on 2014-08-03 11:38:07
Made a mistake on the link to 2 Chr 26:11.
Bobcat
Comment by Mailman on 2014-08-03 12:25:44
In this article, was our Lord Jesus Christ, being the 2nd one after the Father, mentioned as part of the organization? Nowhere do we see his name. But the earthly part of God's organization was mentioned several times. This is becoming a trend. The organization is even more popular than Christ. God save us from deception.
Reply by Sargon on 2014-08-03 17:58:20
The organization is more important than Jesus. We aren't told to follow Jesus. We're told to follow direction from the FDS.
Comment by Alex Rover on 2014-08-04 10:00:00
I think it was crossing a line when they compared adjusted understandings of the organization was just like the new testament understandings on how to view the law of the old testament. That is some audacity.
Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-08-04 13:58:33
They are going further and further. I went to pioneer school and they almost blamed God for giving us wrong teachings. They came up with this catchphrase to explain every change that happened in doctrine: "It wasn't time". Why didn't god correct teaching X? "It wasn't time".
In my head I was thinking if a teaching changes from A -> B -> C does God then progressively reveal a falsehood first, because it's not time to teach them the truth?
Instead of just saying we progressively come to understand God's will but are mere humans and make mistakes, they are in effect blaming GodReply by menrov on 2014-08-04 17:21:30
Funny......when is the time then to know it is correct????
Reply by Mailman on 2014-08-05 02:50:50
Hi InNeedOfGrace, good morning. What a persuasive line of reasoning: "In my head I was thinking if a teaching changes from A -> B -> C does God then progressively reveal a falsehood first, because it’s not time to teach them the truth?" Then the Organization would lay the blame on members who have questions and doubts on the new understanding. Who's to blame? Who's changing the teachings and interpretations? The GB wants us all to just ACCEPT everything that is fed by them - no questions asked or else be subjected to judicial ordeals and be negatively marked. Where are we now? Are we inside a military camp?
Comment by Thinking on 2014-08-04 16:04:11
I agree that it was really crossing a line to compare Jewish Christians needing to change to the law of Christ, to accepting something like the "overlapping generation." The change to fully accepting Christ was in fulfillment of scripture, these new "adjustments" have little or no scriptural backing. Interesting too that the verses used in Acts to stress that Jewish Christians were having a hard time adjusting to change are followed, if you read all of Acts chapter 21.not quoted in the wt art of course , by the "gov body" at the time urging Paul not to stumble anybody and carry on observing aspects of the Law code. What a mess to try to use that chapter to prove the point in paragraph 15 of the study!
Comment by menrov on 2014-08-04 17:38:44
we must support his organization and accept adjustments in our understanding of the Scriptures
This is typical for the WT. Using words like our, us, we etc, as if they speak in our behalf. Like their understanding is synonym for my understanding.
With regard to this sentence, it should read in fact: you must support his organization and accept adjudtments in GB understanding of the scriptures.
As said already by others this comparison in par 15 is completely inappropriate and in fact incorrect. The jewisch christians were not taught by a GB to believe some teaching. They were still following a law given by God. This was not wrong but it would not benefit them. The new law would. Paul explained this, which was not a correction of a wrong doctrine but a new teaching. In fact, the old law was to teach what it meant to sin and was to lead to Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law and brought a followup, the christian law. There was no correction of a wrong doctrine.Reply by Mailman on 2014-08-05 03:53:42
Hi Menrov, you nailed the paragraph 15. Paul was explaining a major development in the faith of Christians anchored on Christ who gave up his life as ransom for the world. Paul was not arguing against the Mosaic Law per se but he was raising a change in shift in the Christian faith. He was not interpreting nor sharing a new understanding of the law but introducing a new, fresh teaching following the Master.
Comment by seeker4godskingdom on 2014-08-05 06:05:28
Daniel 2:44
And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
-- And in the days ....= during the period called "the day of Judgement" that is now in action (Daniel 7:9-18, 26,27)
-- ... of those kings ... = those who reign in the Temple over God's people ( 2Tes 2:4 ; 1Cor. 4:8 ) ; the GB and all his men (of trust )
-- ... shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The Kingdom God is setting up is formed (on earth) by those Father called , elected and were found faithful ... Jesus called them " these least my brethren " Matt 25:40
Apostle Paul also described them : 1Cor. 4:9-13
Those ones will be "exalted" while those in high places now are being "lowed"
as it was prophesied Ezekiel 21
25 And thou, O deadly wounded wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day is come, in the time of the iniquity of the end,
26 thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Remove the mitre, and take off the crown; this shall be no more the same; exalt that which is low, and abase that which is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: this also shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
Blessed be you who loves Jehovah's Kingdom and Justice !
Hosea chapter 14 .Reply by seeker4godskingdom on 2014-08-05 06:08:52
sorry for my english : correction : in place of -- "those in high places now are being “lowed”
is -- "those in high places now are being “abased”
Comment by brendaevans32 on 2014-08-06 11:14:05
Hello Meleti – You encapsulate everything in the final paragraph – let us stay close to Jehovah. Yes please. And yes! Most definitely. Who is the Teacher? Is it Jehovah or Jesus, or something man has conjured up?
I get a mental picture of the narrow gate leading to the road which Jesus spoke about. And sometimes, I think the best way to ask to go through, would be when we are on our own two feet, following Jehovahs’ directions, taking our steps following Him.
Would I rather have Jehovahs’ teachings, and to have the comfort of all the things He said, and Jesus said. And my goodness, how clear those words are, but calming and reassuring.
Or would I rather have man’s interpretation? Difficult choice.
Would I rather have the real McCoy or an interpretation?
Comment by WT Study: Are You Moving Ahead With Jehovah’s Organization? | on 2014-08-26 14:06:43
[…] WT Study: Are You Moving Ahead With Jehovah’s Organization? […]
Comment by on 2014-08-26 15:23:48
And why do we need an organization when we already have a congregation? I try to use the scriptural "congregation" in my parts and comments, rather than "organization", and "Christ Jesus" instead of "FDS". I also avoid "theocratic" and use "Christ-like".