The two witnesses represent the anointed brothers taking the lead who from 1914 to 1916 were Russell and his associates [not the faithful slave] and then from 1916 to 1919, Rutherford and his associates 1919 [the faithful slave].
The 42 months/3 ½ years represent the time from the autumn of 1914 to the incarceration of Governing Body.
The 42 months is the time during which the anointed brothers taking the lead (i.e., the Governing Body preached) in sackcloth.
The death of two witnesses represents the incarceration of Governing Body.
The 3½ days represent the period of their incarceration.
The period from 1914 to 1919 represents the temple cleansing. (The "two witnesses" prophesy says nothing about a temple cleansing.)
That about sums it up. It seems simple; perhaps even logical under a cursory examination. However, if the reader uses discernment, if the reader reads the whole account, another view emerges.
That there is a lot left out of this “new truth” is evident from the fact that the article comprises a mere 500 words. Revelation chapter 11 contains over 600 words. Let’s have a look at what’s left out and see if that affects anything relating to this interpretation.
Verse 2 says that the holy city, Jerusalem, is trampled on by the nations for 42 months. Since we teach that the appointed times of the nations are marked by the trampling of Jerusalem and that they end in 1914, one wonders why the trampling continues for another three and a half years.
What does it mean that they preach in sackcloth? That implies a time of grief of mourning, but there is no evidence the Governing Body’s message during and after the war displayed any grief or mourning.
The article refers to Numbers 16:1-7, 28-35 and 1 Kings 17:1; 18:41-45 when referencing the two olive trees and two lampstands of Rev. 11:4. These perform signs like Moses and Elijah. But why does the article stay with the Hebrew Scriptures and not use a more recent reference—only 60 years before John wrote these words—that directly involves Moses and Elijah. Jesus appeared with them in a vision linked to his return. Perhaps we ignore this reference for more obscure ones because it doesn’t tally with our need to support the 1914 doctrine since we now acknowledge that Jesus didn't return in that year and has yet to return. (Mt:16:27-17:9)
Next we have Rev. 11:5,6:
“. . .If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.” (Re 11:5, 6)
Amazing events! Such powerful words! What a picture they present. So we must ask ourselves, if this is what the Governing Body was capable of from 1914 to 1919, where’s the historical proof? Supposedly it was during these years that they were in captivity to Babylon the Great. Based on these verses, it doesn't appear the two witnesses were in captivity to anyone, nor were they in any type of disapproved state from which they needed cleansing.
Rev. 11:7 says they were killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss. Our publications teach that this wild beast is the United Nations, which came into existence after World War II, not World War I. Its predecessor was the League of Nations, but that didn’t come into existence until 1920; too late to have a part in this alleged fulfillment.
According to Rev. 11:9, 10, “the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations…rejoice…and celebrate and…send gifts to one another” because the Governing Body members are in jail. What evidence is there that anyone took note outside of those directly involved?
Verse 11 says they came back to life (following their release from prison supposedly) and “great fear fell upon those who saw them.” What evidence is there that the nations felt great fear at the release of Rutherford and his associates?
Verse 12 says they are called up to heaven. The anointed are called up to heaven just before Armageddon. Matthew 24:31 speaks of this. But there is no evidence that anyone was taken to heaven in 1919.
Verse 13 speaks of a great earthquake, a tenth of the city falling, and 7,000 being killed, while the rest are frightened and give glory to God. Again, what happened in 1919 to indicate such events transpired?
The Governing Body proclaims itself to be the faithful and discreet slave. But would a discreet slave not know when it doesn't know something? Discretion is akin to wisdom which is why many translations render it "faithful and wise slave". A wise man knows when something is beyond his grasp. Combining wisdom with humility, he will know enough to say, "I don't know". Additionally, a faithful slave is one who is faithful to his master. Therefore, he never misrepresents his master by pronouncing something as true and as coming from the master when in fact it is really self-serving human speculation.
Archived Comments
We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.
Comment by menrov on 2015-01-26 08:29:55
Meleti, I cannot find this QfR in the WT Study edition November nor December. Which one is it? Thanks
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-01-26 09:01:00
Sorry Menrov, I should have stated that there are two Questions from Readers in this issue. (First time I've ever seen that, actually.) The second one, on page 30, is about the "two witnesses".
Reply by menrov on 2015-01-26 09:22:05
Thanks, found it. I find it peculiar that the 42 month or 1260 days are taken literally but the 3,5 days (verses 9 and 11) become years suddenly.
The whole explanation in QfR is like you call it, a self fulfilling or self serving explanation.
Other than the WBTS, not one organisation, scholar or bible investigator ever made a link with Rev. 11 and the WBTS.
Most bible commentaries show a modest attitude when discussing this topic, indicating a number of views / possible explanation but conclude that it is not possible to come to a definite conclusion. Unless of course you are part of the only true communications channel ..... :-)Reply by life2come on 2015-01-26 09:34:04
aaaahhhh.....Matt 24:15...second half has been my favorite scripture since awakening and I like how the New Living Translation puts it.... (Reader, pay attention!). :-)
Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2015-01-26 13:17:25
Haha Meleti you struck gold on this one. I had a discussion w a brother about that the other day... The events in Rev are so dramatic and intense, that to tie them to a simple prison time are just ridiculous. And you are right, so much is left out from the account, you would think they would have to at least try to explain all the rest of the illustration.
Comment by Dorcas on 2015-01-26 14:38:39
A wise man knows when something is beyond his grasp. Combining wisdom with humility, he will know enough to say, “I don’t know”.
I especially appreciated this remark, Meleti. My dad and I used to discuss the organization and how they would never admit that they didn't know something. Better to fabricate something than say you don't know. "Never admit you don't know and never apologize." This should be the name of our website and the signs pasted on our Kingdom Halls instead of jw.org.
Sorry. I think I got up on the wrong side of the bed today.
Thanks for all your hard work. I'm still here and still reading the comments. It's the only thing that keeps me sane these days.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-01-26 14:58:25
Good to hear from you, Dorcas. So glad you're still around.
Meleti
Comment by umbertoecho on 2015-01-26 15:10:35
I agree with Dorcas Meleti so I won't go into the same comment except to say.......Still here and reading and very glad to have this information as it keeps a much needed perspective on how we must view the bible and not men.
Thanks
Comment by yobec on 2015-01-26 16:24:03
As regards to what you wrote:
A wise man knows when something is beyond his grasp. Combining wisdom with humility, he will know enough to say, “I don’t know”.
It brought back to my mind Eccl; 7:16 which says in part " Do not...show yourself excessively wise. Why should you cause desolation to yourself"Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-01-26 17:07:58
What a good scripture that is in light of the Governing Body's declaration of their own discretion, and that God has been making them even more discreet.
Comment by search4truth on 2015-01-26 19:18:11
Oh, another fairy tale from Wt. When I was little kid I believed everything that I was told, because that's what children do, but now I think it's sad to see adult persons believing in fairy tales never able to figure out difference between tale and reality.
Comment by menrov on 2015-01-27 04:36:48
The simple fact that not one argument is given why 42 months or 1260 days equals 3.5 literal years and 3.5 days are suddenly symbolic and represent an unspecified period between 1918 and 1919, (according to the graph in the QfR article), is striking, Also, current calendar makes 3.5 years equal to some 1277 days, not 1260 days.
I have always wondered why chapter 11 in verse 2 says 42 months and verse 3 mentions 1260 days. If the intention was that 42 months is equal to 1260 days, one would expect the same terminology to be used. Could it be that the 42 months are not actually the same as 1260 days as they refer to different events, although at first sight it might seem that?Reply by Christian on 2015-01-27 13:00:39
Menrov, you clearly have not taken Watchtower Mathematics 101 :)
e.g 1+1 = 11 carry the 1 add 4 subtract 1000 add a number between 2 & 2, divide by 7, multiply by 42 and it will equal whatever they say it equals, except on Wednesdays when it will equal something else.
And they reserve the right to change the answer at any point in the futureReply by menrov on 2015-01-27 15:58:28
:) too complicated for a simple guy like me.....
Comment by on 2015-01-27 11:49:06
So, Babylon the Great fell when Rutherford and his cronies were released from prison? Stop anyone on the street and ask them if they've ever heard of this and watch their reaction. The Titanic sank in 1912 and most people know about that. The fall of Babylon the Great is to be an earth-shaking event according to the Revelation account.This is made up nonsense on the part of the Writing Commitee. Shame on them!
Comment by Joel on 2015-01-28 03:37:48
I think I have mentioned it before, but I found this article on the 2 witnesses http://www.bibleinsight.com/1260p1.html
very interesting, well thought out, well written and plausible
Comment by Cefey on 2015-01-28 17:09:37
"Rev. 11:7 says they were killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss. Our publications teach that this wild beast is the United Nations, which came into existence after World War II, not World War I. Its predecessor was the League of Nations, but that didn’t come into existence until 1920; too late to have a part in this alleged fulfillment."
-------------------------------------
This is not correct. The beast of Rev 11:7 is not United Nations.
United Nations is the image of the beast.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-01-28 18:07:49
“. . .The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction.. . .” (Re 17:8)
This wild beast according to JW theology is the league of nations and then when it ascends out of the abyss, it is the UN. Since the beast of Rev. 11:7 also ascends out of the abyss, it must be the UN. However, since that doesn't fit with actual events, the publications play around with the meaning of abyss to try to make it work.Reply by Cefey on 2015-01-29 04:41:52
I understand, but in all publications JW I look for in reference to Rev 11:7, no mention of this beast as the UNO, but as the political system of Satan.
Maybe I hace not se en very well.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-01-29 07:42:00
You are correct. They don't claim that the wild beast of Rev. 11:7 is the UN for obvious reasons. There was no UN nor League of Nations in 1919. However, they do claim the beast that comes out of the abyss in Rev. 17:8 is the UN. The only other beast that comes out of the abyss is the one mentioned at Rev. 11:7. There is no reason to believe this is a different wild beast and a different abyss, other than to make Rev. 11:7 fit with the preconceived conclusion that the two witness prophecy occurred during 1914-1919. Why stick with that when we can't make any of the facts fit? The reason is that without 1914-1919 there is nothing on which to base the position of authority which the Governing Body has taken upon itself. If 1919 has no prophetic significance, then they were not appointed by Jesus as the faithful slave and cannot by extension claim to be the appointed channel of communication God is using to talk to his people today.
So they have to redefine their definition of the beast (UN) and the the abyss (representing a state of inactivity or death). This they do by calling the beast Satan's political system and the abyss, the sea of humanity.
This is a case of forcing the facts to fit the conclusion, but none of the elements of this prophecy fit with the events of 1914 to 1919. The redefinition of the wild beast is but one of them. There really is no basis for redefining the wild beast and the abyss in this instance. "Abyss" occurs 7 times in Revelation. (Re. 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3) In none of these does it make sense to define it as "the sea of humanity". So if we are honest, we must reject the Organization's transparent attempt to get around Rev. 11:7 by redefining their own interpretation of the wild beast and the abyss. That's the point I was trying to make.
But you are correct. Technically, they don't claim the beast of Rev. 11:7 is the UN.Reply by Anonymous on 2016-12-23 10:22:03
I'm shocked that I actually believed this....
Seriously... what in the world?
Sigh smh .....
Comment by on 2015-01-29 23:19:08
"That there is a lot left out of this “new truth” is evident from the fact that the article comprises a mere 500 words." (meleti)
Well, remember, they said they were taking a more simplistic approach to prophesy in scriptures. Can't overdue, you know.
"Above all, I felt satisfied that I had defended the name of Jehovah and had been able to explain clearly the reasons for my Scriptural stand." w05/ 3/15 pp. 15-20
I am wondering if the new teachings are clear enough to allow brothers and sisters to clearly explain them to others. Finally.
"A wise man knows when something is beyond his grasp. Combining wisdom with humility, he will know enough to say, “I don’t know”." (meleti)
Their words in the 7/15/13 W are "we thought". Harold Camping called his failed prediction a "sinful statement" and asked God's forgiveness. The GB says, "previously, we thought", and "we understood".
2 Pet 2:1-3 - But even in those days there were false prophets, just as there will be false teachers among you today. They will be men who will subtly introduce dangerous heresies. They will thereby deny the Lord who redeemed them, and it will not be long before they bring on themselves their own downfall. Many will follow their pernicious teaching and thereby bring discredit on the way of truth. In their lust to make converts these men will try to exploit you too with their bogus arguments. But judgment has been for some time hard on their heels and their downfall is inevitable. JB Phillips Bible. Yes, it uses the word "bogus".
Thank you, meleti for bringing hypocrisy to light. And thank you for letting me comment!
peelyReply by anderestimme on 2015-01-31 20:09:04
Are you sure that's not from the BTEV (Bill and Ted's Excellent Version)?
Comment by on 2015-02-01 19:58:59
:) well, the GB does keep dialing a higher number, but I doubt they will ace the class :/
Comment by agapeheartvisions on 2015-02-15 19:15:39
I totally agree that a truly wise man (or woman) has enough sense to know that they do NOT know EVERYTHING, and is humble enough to admit it and seek knowledge from those who DO know and are willing to share their knowledge. Unlike today's leadership who gives the distinct impression that they not only know everything, but that they are the ONLY ONES who are the direct channel for divine revelation, and that they alone have the answers.
Sort of flies in the face of the Scripture where Jesus says, " I am the way, and the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father except thru me."
I'm just sayin...
LaRhonda
Comment by Ray Byrne on 2015-03-30 03:42:08
"we now acknowledge that Jesus didn’t return in that year [1914] and has yet to return"
I must've missed this along the way. I wasn't aware they changed their view/opinion/thinking/updated-truth on this. When was this "new light" revealed???Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-30 10:07:44
We have been so well-trained to disengage our critical thinking ability that we are now very adept at holding two competing ideas in our brain at the same time. This we do regularly, and it goes completely unnoticed. A good example of this can be found in yesterday's Watchtower in paragraph 8:
"Friendship with Jehovah is a vital source of moral protection. As we learn about God’s endearing qualities and we endeavor to 'become imitators of God, as beloved children, and go on walking in love,' we will be fortified to reject 'sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness.'"
We are now doing something similar with Christ's return. When we came out with the "new truth" that the Governing Body is the faithful and discreet slave, we also changed the point in time at which the master appointed the slave over all his belongings. This used to be the start of Christ’s invisible presence in 1914. Now, we say they get it when they go to heaven. Since Matthew 24:45-47 clearly states that this reward is given when the master returns, his return has been moved from 1914 to Armageddon.
This shift has also allowed us to reinterpret a number of the parables such as wheat and the weeds and the 10 virgins, which we used to say occurred from 1914 onward because that’s when we believe Jesus returned. Now, we believe he has been present since 1914 but is yet to return.
That a person can be present without having returned is a paradox that goes completely unnoticed by the rank-and-file. The campaign to get us to disengage our power of critical thinking, to shift our reasoning ability into neutral, has been so successful that we no longer recognize that we are believing two contradictory things. We can rejoice at being taught that the organization is progressed by abandoning types and anti-types which have no foundation in Scripture while at the same time commenting enthusiastically on a study article based entirely on fabricated anti-types. We can believe that we are sons of God (w15 6/15 p. 21, par. 4) while at the same time acknowledging that we are not.
The saddest feature of this whole process is the willingness with which so many have surrendered their free will. It is one thing to be duped by those we have come to trust. In many ways that is quite understandable. However, it would seem the majority demonstrate a profound preference for the bliss of ignorance, and will often mistreat anyone who tries to get them to think for themselves.
Comment by marielle on 2022-10-24 09:59:59
Révélation 11 : 3
« JE » ferai que mes deux témoins prophétisent…
Cette voix vient des cieux. (V 1)
Mais que prophétisaient Russell et ses collaborateurs en 1914 ?
Que les deux témoins étaient l’Ancien et le Nouveau Testament.
Que les 1260 jours étaient 1260 années allant de 539 à 1799.
Voir Études des Écritures vol 4 p 288
Ensuite, Rutherford et ses associés ont continué de prêcher avec les 6 volumes des Études des Écritures et le mystère accompli.
Ces « deux témoins » avaient annoncé que 1914 marquerait la fin des temps des gentils, et l’établissement du Royaume de Dieu, avec l’enlèvement des saints au ciel.
Ces deux témoins étaient-ils donc de vrais prophètes, qui prophétisent, guidés par la voix, que Jean entend, de 1914 à 1919 ? (V 1)