Dealing with Apostates
Most Jehovah’s Witnesses who stumble on a site like this will turn away immediately. The reason is conditioning. Men and women who boldly go from house to house not knowing whom they will encounter on the other side of the door; men and women who believe themselves to be thoroughly prepared to discuss and overturn whatever strongly entrenched belief is thrown at them on the spur of the moment; these same men and women will go mute, hold up a dismissive palm, and turn away from an honest scriptural discussion if it comes from someone they have labeled as an apostate.
Now there are real apostates to be sure. There are also sincere Christians who simply disagree with some teachings of men. However, if those men are the Governing Body, the latter get dumped into the same bucket as real apostates in the minds of most Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Does such an attitude reflect the spirit of the Christ, or is it the attitude of a physical man?
“But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.” (1Co 2:14-16)
We can all agree that Jesus was the epitome of a "spiritual man". He 'examined all things'. When confronted by the ultimate apostate, what example did Jesus set? He did not refuse to listen. Instead he refuted each of the devil’s specious scriptural allegations, using the opportunity to rebuke Satan. He did this by using the power of Holy Scripture and in the end, he was not the one who turned away. It was the devil who fled in defeat.[i]
If one of my Jehovah’s Witnesses brethren truly holds himself to be a spiritual man, then he will have the mind of Christ and will “examine all things” which includes the scriptural arguments that follow. If these are sound, he will accept them; but if flawed, then he will correct me and those who read this article by using solid Scriptural reasoning.
If, on the other hand, he holds to a teaching of the organization but will refuse to examine it spiritually—that is, guided by the spirit that leads us into the deep things of God—then he is fooling himself by thinking he is a spiritual man. He fits the very definition of a physical man. (1Co 2:10; John 16:13)
The Question Before Us
Are We Children of God?
According to the Governing Body there are more than 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses who should consider themselves privileged to be called God’s friends. Being his children is not on the table. These ones are warned that it would be a sin for them to partake of the emblems at the upcoming memorial of Christ’s death on April 3rd, 2015. As we discussed in the preceding article, this belief originates with Judge Rutherford and is based on supposed prophetic antitypes which are not found in Scripture. The use of such types and anti-types has been disavowed by the Governing Body. Yet they continue to teach a doctrine even after removing its foundation.
Despite the complete lack of scriptural support for this doctrine, there is one Bible text that is always raised in our publications as proof and which is used to keep Jehovah’s Witnesses from reaching out to grasp hold of this hope.
The Litmus Test Text
You may recall from your high school chemistry that a litmus test involves exposing a piece of treated paper to a liquid to determine whether it is acid or alkaline. Blue litmus paper turns red when dipped in an acid.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a spiritual version of this litmus test. We propose to use Romans 8:16 to measure whether we are God’s children or not.
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Ro 8:16)
The idea is that at baptism we all start out as other sheep, God’s friends with an earthly hope. We are like the blue litmus paper. However at some point in their spiritual development, certain individuals are miraculously made aware through some undisclosed means that they are God’s children. The litmus paper has turned red.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in modern-day miracles, nor inspired dreams and visions. Our application of Romans 8:16 is the only exception to this rule. We believe that by some unexplained miraculous means, God reveals those he has called. Of course, God is entirely capable of doing this. If there is solid Scriptural evidence for this interpretation, then we must accept it. Failing that however, we must dismiss it as modern-day mysticism.
Let us therefore follow the counsel of the Governing Body itself and look at the context of verse 16 so that we can learn what Paul had in mind. We’ll start at the beginning of the chapter.
“Therefore, those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.” (Romans 8:1-4)
Paul is contrasting the effect of the Mosaic law which condemns all men to death, for none can fully keep it due to our sinful flesh. It was Jesus who set us free from that law by introducing a different law, one based on the spirit. (See Romans 3:19-26) As we continue our reading, we’ll see how Paul frames these laws into two opposing forces, the flesh and the spirit.
“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:5-8)
If you who are reading this believe yourself to be one of the other sheep class with an earthly hope; if you believe yourself to be God’s friend but not his son; then ask yourself which of these two elements are you pursuing? Do you pursue the flesh with death in view? Or do you believe that you have the spirit of God with life in view? Either way, you must acknowledge that Paul presents you with only two options.
“However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him.” (Romans 8:9)
Do you wish to belong to Christ or not? If the former, then you want God’s spirit to dwell in you. The alternative, as we’ve just read, is to mind the flesh, but that leads to death. Again, we are faced with a binary choice. There are only two options.
"But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you." (Romans 8:10, 11)
I cannot redeem myself through works for my sinful flesh condemns me. It is only God’s spirit within me that makes me alive in his eyes. To keep the spirit, I must strive to live not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. This is Paul’s main point.
“So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live.” (Romans 8:12, 13)
So far, Paul has only spoken of two options, one good and one bad. We can be led by the flesh which results in death; or we can be led by the spirit which results in life. Do you feel God’s spirit leading you to life? Has it guided you throughout your life? Or have you been following the flesh all these years?
You will notice that Paul makes no provision for a third option, a middle ground between the flesh and the spirit.
What happens if a Christian follows the spirit?
“For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.” (Romans 8:14)
This is simple and straightforward. It needs no interpretation. Paul is simply saying what he means. If we follow the spirit we are God’s children. If we don’t follow the spirit, we are not. He speaks of no group of Christians who follow the spirit, but are not God’s sons.
If you believe yourself to be a member of the other sheep class as defined by Jehovah’s Witnesses, then you must ask yourself this: Am I led by God’s spirit? If no, then you are minding the flesh with death in view. If yes, then you are a child of God based on Romans 8:14.
Those who are still unwilling to give up the litmus test approach to Romans 8:16 will suggest that both the anointed and other sheep have God’s spirit, but that spirit only bears witness to some that they are God’s sons while rejecting others as only friends.
However, this reasoning forces a limitation which is not found in Romans 8:14. As further proof of this, consider the next verse:
“For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” – Romans 8:15
It was the Mosaic law which caused fear by showing we are enslaved to sin and thus condemned to die. The spirit that Christians receive is one of “adoption as sons” by which spirit we all can cry out: “Abba, Father!” This makes absolutely no sense if we believe that all Jehovah’s Witnesses have God’s spirit but only some of them are his sons.
A test of the validity of any scriptural understanding is that it harmonizes with the rest of God’s inspired word. What Paul is presenting here is a single hope for Christians based on all receiving the one true spirit of God. He makes this reasoning abundantly clear in his letter to the Ephesians.
“One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph. 4:4-6)
One Hope or Two?
When I first came to the realization that the heavenly hope was extended to all Christians I was greatly conflicted. I’ve learned that this is a common reaction among Jehovah’s Witnesses. The idea that everybody goes to heaven makes no sense to us. Accepting such a thought would be like going backwards into false religion from our point of view. The next words out of our mouth will be something like, “If everybody goes to heaven, then who stays on earth?” Finally, we’re bound to ask, “Who has the earthly hope?”
Let address these doubts and questions in point form.
- Some people go to heaven.
- Most people—in fact the vast, vast majority—will live on earth.
- There is only one hope.
- There is no earthly hope.
If points two and four seem to be in conflict, let me assure you that they are not.
We are talking about Christianity here. Within the Christian framework there is only one hope, one reward, which is imparted by one Spirit through the one baptism under the one Lord, Jesus, for the one father, Jehovah. Jesus never spoke to his disciples about a second hope, a kind of consolation prize for those who didn’t make the cut.
What gets us hung up is the word “hope”. Hope is based on a promise. Prior to knowing the Christ, the Ephesians had no hope because they were not in a covenant relationship with God. The covenant he made with Israel constituted his promise. The Israelites would then hope to receive the promised reward.
“At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world.” (Eph 2:12)
Without a covenanted promise, the Ephesians had nothing to hope for. Some accepted the Christ and entered into the New Covenant, a new promise from God, and thus had the hope of the fulfillment of that promise if they did their part. The majority of the first century Ephesians did not accept Christ, and so had no promise to hope for. Yet, they will come back in the resurrection of the unrighteous. However, that is not a hope for there is no promise. All they had to do to be resurrected was die. Their resurrection is inevitable, but it holds no hope, only opportunity.
So when we say that billions will be resurrected and live in the New World, that is not a hope but an eventuality. Most will have died completely ignorant of all this and only learn of it upon their return to life.
So when we say that most people will live on earth, we are referring to the prospect of the resurrection of the unrighteous in which countless billions will be returned to life on earth and then be offered the promise of everlasting life if they put faith in Jesus Christ. At that point in time they will have an earthly hope, but for now there is no promise extended to Christians for life on earth.
The Four Slaves
In Luke 12:42-48, Jesus refers to four slaves.
- A faithful one who gets appointed over all his belongings.
- An evil one who is cut to pieces and banished with the unfaithful ones.
- A slave who willfully disobeyed the Master, beaten with many strokes.
- A slave who in ignorance disobeyed the master, beaten with a few strokes.
Slaves 2 thru 4 miss out on the reward offered by the Master. Nevertheless, it appears that slaves 3 and 4 survive, continuing in the Master’s household. They are punished, but not killed. Since the beating occurs after the Master has arrived, it must be a future event.
One cannot imagine the God of all justice condemning to eternal death someone who acted in ignorance. That would seem to dictate that such an individual would be given the opportunity to correct his course of action upon receiving accurate knowledge of God’s will.
The parable is addressing Jesus’ disciples. It is not intended to encompass all of earth’s inhabitants. His disciples have the one hope of everlasting life in the heavens with our Lord. The billions of Christians on earth today have that hope but they have been misled by their leaders. Some knowingly do not do the Lord’s will, but an even greater number act in ignorance.
Those who are not judged as faithful and discreet do not get the heavenly reward, but neither do they die for all eternity, save for the evil slave, it seems. Would you consider their outcome, their beating with few or many strokes, a hope to work toward? Hardly.
There is only one hope for Christians, but there are several outcomes for those missing out on the fulfillment of that promise.
For this reason, the Bible says, “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.” (Re 20:5)
If follows then that those having a part in the second resurrection, that of the unrighteous, will still be under the authority of the second death, at least until the thousand years have ended.
In Summary
What we have learned from our review of Romans chapter 8 should leave us with no doubt that all Christians are called to be God’s children. However, we must follow the spirit and not the flesh to achieve that. Either we have God’s spirit or we do not. Our mental disposition and our life course will reveal whether we are led by God’s spirit or by the flesh. The awareness of God’s spirit in us is what convinces us that we are God’s children. All of this is evident from Paul’s words to the Corinthians and the Ephesians. The idea that there are two hopes, one earthly and one heavenly, is a human invention that has no basis in Scripture. There is no earthly hope to strive for, but there is an earthly eventuality.
All of this we can say with a significant degree of certainty, but if someone should dissent, let him provide scriptural evidence to the contrary.
Beyond this, we enter the realm of speculation. Knowing the love of God as we do, it is hard to imagine a scenario that is consistent with that love wherein billions die out of ignorance of God’s purpose. Yet this is a scenario that the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses would have us accept. What does seem more likely and what is consistent with the parable of the faithful slave is that there will be many of Jesus disciples who will be resurrected as part of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Perhaps this is what the punishment represented by the strokes, whether many or few, represents. But who can really say?
The majority of Christians will be unprepared for the reality of an earthly resurrection. Some may be pleasantly surprised if they died expecting to go to hell. While others will be severely disappointed to learn that their heavenly hope was misplaced. There is a quaint irony in the fact that the Christians best prepared for this unexpected turn of events will be Jehovah’s Witnesses. If our understanding of the slave who unwittingly disobeyed Jesus is correct, these millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses may find themselves in the very state they expected to be in—resurrected as still-sinful human beings. Of course, upon learning what they actually missed out on–that they could have been children of God reigning with Christ in the heavens—they are bound to feel anger and sadness. Of course, if this scenario is an accurate representation of what will happen, it still only applies to those who die prior to the events comprising the sign of Christ’s presence. What those events will presage, no one can foretell with certainty.
Whatever the case may be, we must stick with what we know. We know that there is one hope and that we have been extended the opportunity to grasp hold of a marvelous reward, that of adoption as sons of God. This is available to us now. Let no man dissuade us from this. Let not the fear of men keep us from obeying Christ’s command to partake of the emblems that symbolize the blood and flesh that he offered to redeem you and me so as to bring us into the family of God.
Let no one block your adoption!
We will continue our consideration of this theme in the next and final article in the series.
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[i] The Governing Body has misapplied John’s warning at 2 John 10 to protect itself from those who could defeat its teachings scripturally. By telling us to keep our eyes closed, they make sure that we will not see. The idea that even talking with an apostate is dangerous imbues apostates with near-superhuman powers of persuasion. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses really that mentally weak? I don’t think so. Not the ones I have known. Do they love truth? Yes, many do; and therein lies the danger from the organization’s point of view. If they listen, they just might hear the ring of truth. What John was warning against was social interaction—not receiving an apostate into our homes; not saying a greeting to him, which was much more in those days than a casual hello as one passes another on the street. Jesus didn’t chum around with the devil, sit down and have a snack with him, invite him over for a friendly chat. Doing any of that would have granted implicit approval of his course of action, causing Jesus to become a sharer in his sin. However, refuting the devil’s false reasoning is quite another thing and John never meant to imply that we should refuse to talk with an opposer under those circumstances. Otherwise, it would be impossible for us to go from door to door in our ministry.
Archived Comments
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Comment by kev on 2015-03-23 16:22:54
Thanks for a very good explaination of romans 8 We can all see that romans 8 v16 has been grossly miss applied . We are either led by the spirit or the flesh .We are either gods sons or we are not christians . Thats what paul was saying . I just wish people would read the NT properly .
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-23 16:32:58
Meleti, this is a fine article and very encouraging to all of God's adopted children.
However, I do take exception to something you said: "One cannot imagine the God of all justice condemning to eternal death someone who acted in ignorance. That would seem to dictate that such an individual would be given the opportunity to correct this course of action upon receiving accurate knowledge of God’s will.
The parable is addressing Jesus’ disciples. It is not intended to encompass all of earth’s inhabitants. His disciples have the one hope of everlasting life in the heavens with our Lord. The billions of Christians on earth today have that hope but they have been misled by their leaders. Some knowingly do not do the Lord’s will, but an even greater number act in ignorance."
Who are we to know whether billions of Christians on earth today have been misled?
Jesus commanded that his followers love God and love their neighbor. God made it so simple for us. We recognize and admit that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves by our works and so we repent and stop sinning. We accept that God provided his son Jesus to save us by grace. We believe that Jesus is alive and we ask him to save us. We confess our faith in Jesus before others in order to encourage them or to share our faith with them, even in the face of persecution or death.
I do know that right now Christians are dying in some countries simply because they are Christians. Are we to judge whether they are ignorant or have accurate knowledge? We cannot read hearts and we do not know others motives. Who are we to judge anyone...let alone "billions of Christians"? It is not important how we see them. It is only important how Jesus sees them.
We know we were misled. Perhaps not all of them have been as misled as we were once taught.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-23 17:24:59
Thank you. I'm glad you liked the article.
Addressing the point you raised, let us set to one side for the moment the issue of heart motivation and the judgment of individuals. The point I was making is that billions have been misled. Before we can determine if that statement is accurate or not, we need to lay down the criteria upon which it is based.
Perhaps a good starting point is your statement: "We know we were misled." I presume you are speaking as a former (or current) Jehovah's Witness. I agree with your statement, by the way.
My question is, "How do we know that we were misled?" What is the criteria we use to determine that? What is the measuring stick by which we can know that we were misled?
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-23 18:03:53
The first thing that comes to my mind is that the Governing Body is not God's spokesman on earth. I was raised believing that whatever was written in the Watchtower came straight from Jehovah God, he was using the GB to give us the information.
Now that I am out from under any influence of the Watchtower whatsoever, I find it comical and I have to laugh at some of the things I once believed....just because it was in a publication. It was quite a humbling experience to find out my perceived intelligence was as low as it is/was. It was the lack of the ability to think and reason for myself.
It is your statement as if it is fact that I find hard to accept: "The billions of Christians on earth today have that hope, but they have been misled by their leaders."
Where did you find that particular information? From the outside of the organization, it appears to be a hangover from what the Watchtower used to say and which I swallowed hook, line, and sinker too.
Now that I am "Out", I don't see the evidence to back that belief up. I can only speak of people I have met locally, but almost to a person, Christians believe in God, they believe they are saved by God's grace, that Jesus died for our sins, that he was resurrected and they believe they are going to heaven.
That is the measuring stick I am using Meleti. The GB does not want you to actually get to know any Christians outside of the organization or else you might find this out for yourself.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-23 19:11:38
Ah, but how do you know that Christians "are saved by God's grace, that Jesus died for our sins, that he was resurrected" and that Christians "are going to heaven"?
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-23 19:18:02
The same way that you know and the same way that I know. By means of our faith and the Holy Spirit.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-23 19:27:05
Are you saying that the Bible has nothing to do with this? That it is by divine revelation that we know these things?
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-23 19:54:09
Meleti, may I refer you back to your own words? "Either we have God’s spirit or we do not. Our mental disposition and our life course will reveal whether we are led by God’s spirit or by the flesh. The awareness of God’s spirit in us is what convinces us that we are God’s children. All of this is evident from Paul’s words to the Corinthians and the Ephesians.
I completely agree with you!
And that now brings us right back to "the issue of heart motivation and the judgment of individuals."Reply by Aletheia on 2015-03-23 22:26:46
"We know we were misled. Perhaps not all of them have been as misled as we were once taught."
So are you asserting that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only professed Christian denomination that has been misled? Do all other Christian religions, despite widely varying doctrines, organizational structures, and means of worship have it somehow simultaneously right?
I don't think his statement merits such offense. I wholeheartedly agree with you that there are many, many Christians throughout the world, found in all denominations, that have pure motives and are serving God to the best of their ability.
You asserted that we know we were once misled, and I agree with that. For many of us, this realization came after applying a Boroean diligence to our previously held beliefs, and stripping ourselves of anything that isn't firmly rooted in scripture. We can apply that same due diligence to various other churches, denominations, sects, etc. and come to the same conclusion: Most all of those faithful, honesthearted people are also being misled. This isn't a judgement or condemnation of their personality, or righteousness before God. It's merely stating a simple fact, that they have been misled, or taught things that aren't rooted in scripture.
None of us can say for sure whether these false teachings will hinder their chance at the true Christian hope any more than our own failings and false understandings that we likely all still hold. But we can make a simple statement as to the sad state that Christianity's organized religion has spent the last nearly 2000 years falling into.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-23 22:58:28
No we are not ready to go there yet. We still haven't established the means by which we measure or determine if we have been misled. To say it is only faith and holy spirit ignores the fact that the spirit guides us into all the truth, and truth is found in God's written word. So it is the knowledge revealed in the Bible by holy spirit that allowed you and me to realized that we had been misled. We do not need to judge the heart motivation of those who misled us to know we've been deceived. Since you used your knowledge of scripture to determine you had been misled, you did well. You followed God's counsel to examine the inspired expression measuring it against what is found in his written word.
It is by this same process that can determine if other religions are misleading their flocks. This is a duty that we have, for we are commanded to examine the inspired expression. For example, we see religions teaching their flocks to fear eternal torment and knowing that God's word does not teach that, we can say that those who believe it are being misled. We see religions that teach their followers that it is their civic duty to go abroad and kill for the national interest and we know again that these are contradicting Jesus' command to show love for their brothers.
Whether the ones being misled are to be condemned by God or not is not for us to day on an individual basis. However, based on Jesus' words we know that it is a minority that will be saved while the greater number go off into destruction at some point. (Mt 7:13, 14)
I do believe there are righteous people in all Christian denominations, but I cannot prove that because I cannot read hearts. Nevertheless, that wasn't my point. My point was that the vast majority of Christians in all denominations are being misled by false religious teachings and that I can prove using the measuring stick which is God's word the holy bible.
Personally, I feel that almost everyone will get the opportunity to live forever on earth as part of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Whether they take advantage of that opportunity will be up to each one. Of course, that is my personal feeling. I cannot prove it. Perhaps there will be many who will not be resurrected. We'll just have to wait and see.Reply by menrov on 2015-03-24 05:02:31
I very much liked the article. Regarding this specific discussion, I believe only Jesus will know who really was innocently ignorant (meaning the opposite of choosing to remain ignorant as some choose not to acquire knowledge) or to see if that person has been misled. Only Jesus can read the hearts. It is not up to us humans nor up to a GB. Hence whether there will b billions or millions or thousands among the unrighteous who will receive the chance to live another 1000 years is unknown. For example, I am sure that very few of us would have believed upfront that the criminal would be with Jesus. Also, Saulus appeared to have the right heart condition and therefore he accepted the correction given by Jesus. It is always easy to know or judge in hindsight but fortunately we have Jesus who can read the true motives of all of us.
In the end, it is said that Jesus is as righteous as His Father hence the Father appointed Him as judge over all.
I can see that the doctrine the WBTS teaches about who might be resurrected has some influence on our thinking as JW's. The GB has a strong tendency to show they can speak on behalf of the Father and that they know exactly what the Father is thinking or how He will act (or judge in this case). It is very common for the GB to use words like "evidently, obviously, logically, one can only conclude, we cannot imagine etc" , but often without lack of scriptures to support the doctrine.
Anyway, this assessment of Romans 8 was very good and I believe it can be considered as a sort of "MEAT in due season". Thanks
Comment by anderestimme on 2015-03-23 20:17:54
The following two scriptures appear to indicate (correct me if I'm wrong) that the anointing by holy spirit among the first Christians was a visible event. (See also the account of Cornelius.)
(Ephesians 1:13, 14) 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.
(Acts 8:14-17) 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Sa·mar′i·a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; 15 and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. 16 For it had not yet come upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they began to receive holy spirit.
So why would Romans 8 be describing some mysterious anointing that only the anointee would be aware of? Surely this does not describe any experience that the early Christians were familiar with, or am I missing something?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-23 22:37:43
What an excellent point!
Reply by kev on 2015-03-24 05:38:59
Yes thats correct the bible speaks of visible manifestations of the holy spirit acts 2 v 3 and 4 hebrews 2 v4 1 corinthians 12 v7 also 1 corinthians 14 v 22 . To be fair this was one point that put doubt in my mind pondering wether any of us truly have the holy spirit or not . . If we have then what we are saying is that we have moved on from infancy to the surpassing way of love mentioned at 1 corinthians 13 .and more than anything its this quality that shows that we are anointed with holy spirit . Of course that ties in with romans 8 and galatians 5 v 13 to 25 . Kev by the way i agree with your reasoning again meleti . We can tell when others have been misled when we continually strive for accurate knowledge of gods word .i believe that was the point paul was making at 2 timothy chapter 3 and romans 10 v 1 to 4 ..Honestly brothers we just need gto keep reading the NT through in context .and ask for the spirit .
Comment by Vassy on 2015-03-24 08:16:24
Meleti, two questions to which I would like to hear an answer from you:
1. Are the sheep in Matt 25:32-46 CHRISTIANS or not?
2. Their reward is a HEAVENLY or an EARTHLY one?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-24 08:57:39
Apollos and I have been discussing the parable of the sheep and the goats for some time now. We haven't arrived at a conclusion yet. What we can deduce from the parable is that they are not Christ's brothers. Therefore, it would appear that they do not rule with him as kings and priests in the heavens. That doesn't preclude a heavenly reward, but an earthly one seems more likely. However, they do get everlasting life, so they are judged as righteous. The fact that the sheep and goats are unaware who Christ's brother's are seems to indicate that this parable occurs during the time that the weeds and wheat are both growing and that it concludes with the final harvest.
This parable brings to mind Jesus' words at Mt 10:40-42: “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me. 41 Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”
I think we have to be aware of the fact that the selection of the seed is only a step toward the salvation of humankind. Jesus came to find those who would share with him in making up that seed. Then the seed, once its number is filled, will proceed to carry out the mission of reconciling humanity with God. Salvation begins with the children of God. (Romans 8:19-22) That means that Armageddon isn't a salvation event anymore than was the flood of Noah's day. Generally speaking, people are not "saved" or "condemned" by Armageddon. The idea put to witnesses to get us out in the field ministry is that we are engaged in a life saving work; that the billions who do not respond to our message will all die at Armageddon, never to live again. Think what the realization that a person's prospect of eternal life doesn't depend on our preaching would mean to our zeal and participation in the door-to-door work. Our problem, as I see it, is that we are viewing salvation as men see it, not as God sees it.
In any case, I can't give you a better answer to your question than that, because I don't know. I don't believe there will be a definitive answer until the fulfillment of the parable is before us. Then we'll all slap our forehead and cry, "Of course! That makes so much sense."
However, the purpose of the parable is served for the present day when we realize that if we want eternal life, then we had better help Christ's brothers, whether we consider ourselves one of them or not.Reply by Aletheia on 2015-03-24 13:21:09
Meleti,
I don't really share your confidence in deducing that these sheep can not be Christ's brothers.
Christ himself instructed his disciples to have love among themselves, and said this would be the chief identifier of his followers (John 12:34,65). In fact, if we draw from your article above, the only example that Jesus gave that is at risk of complete destruction is the "evil slave" who was abusive and unloving of his brothers and sisters.
In structuring a simple parable, it would be impossible for Jesus to include in his response to the sheep or goat every single factor that will be weighed for salvation. It stands to reason then, that perhaps he chose a single trait that he wanted to put a great deal of emphasis on, showing love for his followers.
Jesus is using this parable as a teaching device, he intends that the listener insert themselves into the place of the sheep or goats, and let the point drive home. Jesus' listeners at the time wouldn't likely fully grasp just how important it was to treat their fellow Christian with love and compassion. So Jesus cleverly inserts an analogy using something that any Christian would universally understand: love for their master, Jesus himself. The hypothetical sheep, understandably, is confused by this statement because Jesus has never literally appeared to them to receive the love and compassion he mentions. He then completes the analogy by inserting the true recipient of this love, and driving home the point.
The sheep's ignorance of the correlation between figuratively showing love to Jesus and literally to his followers doesn't need to be taken as an indicator of their identity, but is merely used as an expository device. Also notice: they never show any confusion as to the identity of Christ's brothers, as you assert. They merely are ignorant of the correlation that Jesus was making by way of analogy, they were taking his statement too literally (this is something that happens time and time again with Jesus teaching using illustrations and metaphors, and he nearly always is forced to clarify).
Also, If I were to say to you: Meleti, you are treating Christ's brothers and sisters with great love and compassion through your work on this site...does that indicate to you that I don't believe you are one of Christ's brothers? Sure, I could have worded it slightly differently to make that point more obvious, but the wording doesn't indicate either way. If you knew from other conversations that I wholeheartedly believe that you could be called one of his brothers, then made that statement, then likely it would never cross your mind that I was somehow implying you are separate from them.
Finally, the wording of his promise to them seems fairly consistent with the heavenly hope held out to his anointed followers: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world."
It seems to me that to make the assertions you did complicates the passage, and create an odd wrinkle that leaves one just throwing up their hands. To me personally, what I've written makes a little more sense and allows the scripture to easily harmonize with everything else we know.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-24 15:08:01
Thank you for sharing this with us, Aletheia. You've expressed sound reasoning and I see great value in this understanding of the parable. It does seem to tie up the loose ends.
Reply by kev on 2015-03-25 03:09:52
That is my opinion as well actually .and its interesting to read others have a similar mindset .thanks aletheia . Kev
Reply by answersforjws on 2015-03-24 22:49:22
Meleti,
I must disagree that the sheep are not Christ's brothers. In this text we have three groups: angels, sheep and goats. Twice Jesus uses the pronoun "these" to refer to one of the groups, and it is "these my brothers." It is unlikely the angels and certainly not the goats. There is no other group in the context for the pronoun to refer to but the sheep.
The text this reflects upon how the sheep acted toward each other.Reply by menrov on 2015-03-25 04:52:22
Hi Answerforjws, Matthew 25:32 says that the nations (or people) are gathered to receive judgment. This is what STRONG says about this word:
ἔθνος
a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan)
In other words, the word most likely refers not to His brothers (persons Jesus already knew and whom He considered His brother, they did not become His brothe during judgment but were already) but to the nations in general. From this group, Jesus selects those He compares with sheep. The group is surprised as they were not aware of doing these good things. Likely they did it because their heart condition urged them to do these things. If this group were already His brothers, they would not be that surprised as Jesus expressed various time how important the love for thy neighbour is. His brothers would be following the command to love your neighbour and for that most likely Jesus already considered them HIs brothers. I therefore believe the sheep are people from the nations that actually showed what Jesus values most: love. True love as show in the parable because the sheep were not aware to whom they were showing their love. They just did it because they wanted to, felt it was the normal thing to do.
The other group did not pay attention to the needs of others. They showed they lacked the love that Jesus values most: true love for your neighbour.
The parable is a warning from Jesus as the parable indicates that true love is what counts, regardless if one is baptised or is considered a disciple.
It is like in Hosea 6:6, where is says that the Lord wants mercy, not sacrifice. Same with Jesus, above all, He wants to see love, not a mere baptism or title or works. Love was what fulfilled the law.(Rom. 13:10).
The parable perfectly shows that eternal life is a gift, not a reward for works.
Reply by kev on 2015-03-24 09:58:52
In order to get the right conclusions of the parable of the sheep and thegoats it must be remembered that this parable does not stand alone . But is connected to the parables of the faithful and the unfaithful Slave and the discreet and foolish virgins . Also in themselves are parables in response to questions raised in matthew 24 .such as who really is the faithful and discreet slave ? The whole context needs to be considered from matthew 23 onward to get the sense i think . Kev
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-24 08:30:18
When you are in a strange city without a map (this is back before the days of universal GPS :) ) and you stop and ask a policeman for directions to a particular hotel, you trust him because of his office. Now, if that policeman gives you the wrong directions and you end up in a bad neighborhood, are you to blame? Have you been misled?
My answer to the first question is, "I don't know." It depends on factors not in evidence.
My answer to the second question is an unequivocal, Yes!
Being misled is one half of a binary operation. Either the policeman directed you correctly in which case he led you to your destination, or he directed you incorrectly in which case he led you to where you didn't want to go. He misled you.
When you arrive in the bad neighborhood, you don't like the look of the surroundings. You know this isn't what you expected. And the hotel you expected to find isn't there. So you roll down your window and ask a passerby where the hotel is. He doesn't know, but by chance he has a map. So you consult the map together and locate the hotel. At that point, you both know that you were misled by the policeman.
Did the policeman mislead you because he was incompetent, having a bad day, simply mistaken, or because he didn't like the color of your skin? Who knows? God knows.
Should you have asked for directions again? When you saw the quality of the neighborhood go downhill, when you passed by drug dealers and street walkers peddling their goods should you have turned around and asked someone else? Should you have found a store and bought a map of your own? How much responsibility do you bear for being misled? God knows. Perhaps to some extend, you also know. But when the man with the map says to you, "You've been misled.", he is not passing judgment but merely stating a fact because he knows a) where you wanted to be, and b) where you are now, and c) what the map shows.
So when I say that billions have been misled, I am not passing judgment but merely stating facts based on the scriptures.
Comment by Emmanuel on 2015-03-24 11:44:50
Wow, that's a great illustration- you guys make some great observations. Thanks
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2015-03-24 12:31:00
Excellent article. And humbling to say the least. If I might add my own fallible thoughts, since I once ridiculed the simple ones who claimed salvation by Jesus with limited Bible knowledge.
I, on the other hand, could not shut my brain off long enough for a simple thought. There was no down time. It just churned on to exhaustion and and a depressed state as I analyzed ad nauseam. And so I began simplifying, adapting Ockham's Razor over and over again until theory came closest to reason.
When Jesus departed, he gave no hint to the time/space continuum of his return as so many of his parables allude. Yet I cannot dispel from my imagination that the Synagogues, as many as there were, were left as a reminder, run by a hierarchy of Pharisees along with the Sanhedrin by a hierarchy of priests and Sadducees. Jesus knew they were flawed, yet he preached and taught in them. Jesus knew Christianity would grow with the same flaws as Judaism, so perhaps we need to understand more fully why Nicodemus had to sneak away from his own fellow Pharisees to ask Jesus the way of salvation and listen again to Jesus' answer as to how the spirit operates. Perhaps we all need to be born again as little children as Jesus admonished his disciples. While Nicodemus saw only the physical rebirth, what he failed to see was the spiritual rebirth, without which salvation was impossible.
So my theory is simple. Jesus knew that such hierarchies needed to grow to a much greater extent than the Judaic environment to which he preached. He also knew those religions would be politically driven to serve the devil's wishes. That was Satan's challenge, not to merely sift his immediate disciples like wheat, but the whole world. We have been given sufficient scripture to know this and there is sufficient spirit available just as Jesus assured Nicodemus and it's only when we stop trying to reason beyond reason that the spirit arrives.
Meanwhile, keep writing, Meleti, and keep answering all you seekers of the spirit. Love dominates all!.
swReply by Libertas on 2015-03-24 16:58:33
smolderingwick1:
totally agree with you. great comment!
Comment by katrina on 2015-03-24 14:05:52
I found the article very thought provoking with much of what I have of lately come to believe. Thank you.
One Question Meleti
You said "Then the seed, once its number is filled, will proceed to carry out the mission of reconciling humanity with God. Salvation begins with the children of God"
Do you believe in that number as 144,000, as you said all Gods children have the hope of living in the heaven with Christ this is the hope of all Christians.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-24 15:03:35
Hi Katrina,
144,000 may be a literal number, but personally, I doubt that. The reason is that if we take it as literal then we have to acknowledge that it is the total or sum of 12 other numbers. Each tribe contributes 12,000 to make up the 144,000.
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh 12,000;
7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000;
out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000;
8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.
There was no tribe of Joseph and Levi was not one of the twelve. For this reason, Jehovah's Witnesses acknowledge that the tribes are symbolic of spiritual Israel which is made up of both natural Jews and peoples of the nations.
If we are to accept the sum as literal, we must also accept the figures adding up to it as literal. It makes no sense to take 12 symbolic numbers and have them add up to a literal one. In addition, that would require the tribes from which the literal numbers are drawn to be literal.
Those rying out to the Lore at Rev. 6:9-11 are appeased with the assurance that the end will come when their full number is filled. So there is some cut-off point when God says, it is enough.
I believe that the use of 12 which represents a divinely balanced organization indicates that 144,000 is symbolic. That Jesus would use such a large number 12 * 12,000 indicates that a considerable number make up the heavenly government.
If Christ's brothers are going to dwell on the earth with the tent of God and acting as priests, help billions to a state of reconciliation with God in just 1,000 years, there would need to be a considerable number.
Of course, all of this is conjecture, or at best an educated guess. Fortunately, it is not something we need to know right now...that is, unless we want to make it a literal number and use it as the basis for a doctrine that denies millions the promised reward of adoption as God's children. But who would do a nasty thing like that? :)
Comment by katrina on 2015-03-24 15:41:11
Thank you doesn't make sense what the GB teach in regards to a literal number of 14400, it is elitist and not in the teaching of Christ that all are brothers all share the reward as Sons of God and again as the scriptures in Rom 8 say all those led by the spirit are sons of God, no mention of another hope.
Thought this was an excellent point on hope.
"However, that is not a hope for there is no promise. All they had to do to be resurrected was die. Their resurrection is inevitable, but it holds no hope, only opportunity"
thank you!
Comment by kev on 2015-03-24 16:44:11
Just reading your note about 2 john 10 totally agree again with the reasoning . A greeting according to the oxford and cambridge dictionary is a welcome .recieving one into our homes is an act of hospitality . The one who pushes ahead not remaining in the teaching of the christ describes a false teacher who has gone beyond the things written about christ in scripture .including his commands . . To welcome and provide hospitality for such a person shows support and acceptance of his message . Hence we would be a sharer in his sins but as you said there is no way a simple hi or even a conversation with such a person could make us a sharer in his sin . Why even god himself would be a sinner if that was true for did he not speak to the devil as well as recorded at Job 1 and 2 ..its an obvious miss application of scripture again . I explained this to a brother a few years ago but he prefers the watchtower interpretation and has cut me off .despite the love and support i gave him for years . So sad . Again they just need to read the bible properly and then it may be easier for them to recognise a real apostate .. kev
Comment by anderestimme on 2015-03-24 17:19:14
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
How do these promises figure into all this? The Watchtower makes a fairly convincing case, based on Psalm 2, that those who receive the promised kingdom - Jesus and his 'brothers' - also 'inherit the earth' as the dominion of the kingdom. So, if the earthly-but-not-heavenly hope is not really a bible-based hope, perhaps we can say that neither is a heavenly-but-not-earthly one. If those who serve as kings and priests 'reign on the earth', as some translations render Rev. 5.10, could it be that Christ's brothers will be able to have their earthly cake and reign over it too?Reply by Nightingale on 2015-03-25 06:14:07
I have said this before but I will say it again: Nowhere in the Bible we find the term "Kingdom in heaven". Kingdom of heaven = Kingdom of God (Matthew 19:23,24), it belongs to God, it originates from God, it is his arrangement. Heaven does not need a kingdom which would fix things there but this Earth does. Even if Revelation 5:9,10 is rendered "over the earth" instead of "on the earth" - why would the new rulers be somewhere else than in their Kingdom? If a new president is elected in Iceland, will he rule from Australia?
Reply by BN on 2015-03-25 07:17:26
Spot on ! What was the promise to Abraham's seed? What did the Anointed One inherit? The earth! And should He not recogncile it with the heavens? Isn't the Kingdom BOTH heavens and earth? It's not a question of place, but of being rescued; and that's all about LOVE.
Why worry about placement: 'Whatever God wants for me..!'
I'm the Road, the Truth and the Life: Love your neighbor!
We can't get it wrong when we love our fellow man ..and I think that's the lack of love that condemns the goats .. and that goes for everybody - christians or not; if you don't love your neighbor it doesn't matter how many obligations you have fulfilled ...
A friend of mine used some of his time visiting sick and/or elderly, but was told he did not spend enough time in the fieldservice ... That told me a lot !
Comment by menrov on 2015-03-25 05:51:31
I believe the whole HOPE doctrine by WBTS is wrong as it is focusing on the wrong things. I do not see that the bible teaches a hope on a life in heaven or on earth. In my view, it teaches a hope to be saved and receive eternal life in the kingdom. The WBTS teaches that one, who they call anointed, is already sure of receiving eternal life and therefore their focus is completely on a life in heaven. The rank and file can only hope to be granted a life on earth. But this doctrine lacks the fact that Jesus is our judge and everyone will be judged. If judged positively, you are granted eternal life. That is what, in my view, the bible teaches. Romans 8:24,25 explains that one should hope for what cannot be seen. Those under the law were hoping for the Messiah who would deliver them and so it happened. Hence they should no longer hope for that. Jesus also said that the kingdom had arrived (e.g. Luke 17:21, Matt. 12:28). So, what remains? Well, for us to enter the kingdom or in other words, to be granted access and eternal life in that kingdom.
The sheep were not hoping for any reward at all. They were granted access to the kingdom. So, if, according to the WBTS doctrine the sheep are the rank & file, they were granted to inherit the kingdom., not a fulfillment of their so-called earthly-hopeReply by Nightingale on 2015-03-25 06:21:04
Yes, there is no such a thing as "heavenly hope" or "earthly hope" in the Bible, those are Watchtower terms like are "heavenly resurrection" and "earthly resurrection". Hope is simply about having eternal, immortal life instead of this one we have now.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2015-03-25 12:18:09
Jesus’ Parting Words to His Disciples
“Do not let your hearts be distressed. You believe in God; believe also in me. THERE ARE MANY DWELLING PLACES IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going away to make ready a place for you. And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will come again and take you to be with me, so that where I am you may be too. And you know the way where I am going.”
(John 14:1-4 NET Bible)
Comment by menrov on 2015-03-25 06:30:50
With regard to the hope discussion, I like to share this verse (Acts 26:17,18):
KJV(i) 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
In other words, the Gentiles who would listen would inherit the same as the ones who were sanctified by faith in Jesus.
Comment by answersforjws on 2015-03-25 11:35:22
Menrov,
What you've provided above does not interact with my point. I will, respond to yours, however. Christians come out of all nations (Revelation 5:10), so we would expect that the judgment of the nations would include both Christians and nonChristians.
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-26 01:08:54
I sincerely appreciate everyone's input into this very interesting discussion.
All of mankind has been and is being misled to some degree or other. Would we expect any less from Satan, the God of this world, this system of things?
Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to ones like children. We grown ups tend to make life far too complicated for our own good.
The older I become, the more simplicity appeals to me. What I say is not nearly as important as what I do. A person can claim anything they wish. It is in their actions that the truth in their heart comes out. The bottom line for me is: Do I show my love for God and my love for my fellow man in my actions?
If you are taking in accurate knowledge, it does no good unless at some point you begin to act on it. If it does not move your heart to change your way of life, the way you view and treat your fellow man, all of them, what value is there in all that knowledge?
I sometimes wonder if the differences between beliefs by Christians, including Jehovah's Witnesses is even that important to Jesus, or is he truly watching how we treat the least of Jesus' brothers, our own brothers and sisters, our fellowman? Can it really be that simple?
If we spend the majority of our time reading and researching and comparing everything the Watchtower has ever printed, how much time does that realistically leave to show love to our fellow man? How many times do we have to read Jesus words before it sinks into our hearts that love is a verb requiring action on our part?
The Watchtower loves the "busy work" of the ministry. Is that really showing love of our fellow man just preaching to them? Is that love only for a couple of hours on Saturday morning, maybe an hour or two on Sunday, possibly an hour or so during the week? How much time can you fit into your schedule this week for field ministry?
I believe that the kind of love that Jesus is talking about is not the kind that can be measured by minutes or hours a week, because it is a complete change in our way of life, a total change in our way of thinking and how we treat people all around us all the time. Maybe the point when I realized this was my own new spiritual birth.
The Watchtower made me feel like I was different, special, elite, better than the people all around me....I was going to be saved....they weren't. Life was always in the context of surviving Armageddon. It was like living in a bubble, protected by belonging to the group and the GB...while constantly judging those around me as unworthy. Always looking for and finding the faults in people all around me...instead of turning the focus on myself.
Coming to terms with the reality of those lies, and they are all lies, has been the most liberating and humbling experience of my life. I have to fight against those old feelings of judging others every day of my life, just as we are all fighting our own personal battles.
Will I live in heaven or on earth, or have access to both...and even more? What will that new body be like that can live in earth's atmosphere and survive in outer space? How much knowledge do I need to have in order to serve God's purpose? I don't know...and it doesn't matter to me. I have faith that I will be given what I need at the proper time, whenever that might be in the future.
That is all self-centered fleshly thinking anyway. It is not about what reward I might receive in the future because of how I act now. For me, showing love to my fellow man in even the smallest of ways, is reward enough unto itself. Showing love for my fellow man is the greatest way I know of to show that I love God. For me, it really is that simple.Reply by Gogetter on 2015-03-26 07:10:14
iamacountrygirl2
Well stated my sister! 1 Tim. 6:3-6
. 3 If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions, 5 violent disputes about trifles on the part of men corrupted in mind and despoiled of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain. 6 To be sure, it is a means of great gain, [this] godly devotion along with self-sufficiency. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-26 09:21:19
Hi imacountrygirl2,
Very nicely expressed.
Thank you.
Reply by kev on 2015-03-26 11:32:01
Thanks country girl . What you have written there is spot on ithink . Kev
Reply by Dorcas on 2015-03-26 14:30:23
Thank you for expressing so eloquently what I've felt in my heart for a long time. I've expressed to others that I feel Witnesses are among the most judgmental people on earth. That's not a good thing and not a good feeling for me.
Showing love and not worrying about every little doctrinal glitch is a better way, I feel. Still, it's hard to do that in a JW environment where field service, pioneering, etc. is pushed to the forefront above all else.
Reply by anderestimme on 2015-03-26 18:38:47
"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." -- James 1:27
Reply by Imgonaburn on 2015-03-28 22:14:48
imacountrygirl2 I read your comment with interest thank you.
I feel similarly to you in that rather than our first impulse be to judge another person we should rather try to work what is good toward all. Sadly, after 30 years spent as a jw I cannot continue with the expression by saying ...especially towards those related to us in the faith. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm an apostate but I have definitely lost faith. I have fallen away from religion. I'm no longer confident in the truth of the written word. I question everything. I would like to think that in the future I may find it within me to spend time making a personal study of the scriptures but the most I can stomach so far is the information available on this site. I have no desire whatsoever to return to any Christian religion. The jws are so intrinsically linked to the bible that I can't face picking it up again yet.
I wish that it were enough that we could just set scripture aside and just practice kindness and love and tolerance of others and for that to be sufficient to gain favour with God. That our humanity, albeit imperfect, would show Jehovah our heart condition. If we have been damaged by being misled and then can't find our way back is it all over for us?? Where is the justice in that? If I continue living and Armageddon comes will I be destroyed whilst those who die before Armageddon get a ressurection?
These are the questions that run through my mind in quieter moments. When I was a witness I would get asked on the ministry 'who will survive Armageddon?' My response would be that it's not my place to determine who survives but that decision rests with Jesus and Jehovah ( the reader of hearts). It made me uncomfortable because inside I was thinking ..'he that does the will of jehovah is the one that remains' and that meant that the people I was witnessing to were going to die. It was constantly reinforced at meetings that we were involved in a life saving work. It's a cruel and unusual punishment that I feel like a dead woman walking. My daughter, son and husband attend meetings still and it grieves me to think that they envisage a reward from God that doesn't include me. Surely that causes them pain too? It's so sad. I read this article about the 2015 Memorial with an open mind but it's not a primary concern of mine at this time. I'm not so much interested in where I am going [when I die] but whom I shall be with.
Whatever the answer is I can only do what I can and hope that jehovah remembers me.Reply by kev on 2015-03-29 05:33:19
Dear sister notgonnaburn .thanks for your comments . I do sympathise .. keep your chin up . . I found it difficult as well .after 20 years . When i picked up my bible for a long time it just seemed to open up old wounds . It just reminded me of the pain i suffered while in the religion. I do not believe though that the JWs are intrinsicly linked to scripture though ..i think they are only partially linked ..in actual fact the will of god is simple its all about expressing faith through love . Your brother kev
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-29 07:45:08
Imgonaburn, we have been led to believe that people will be judged and assigned to eternal death or the prospect of everlasting life based on how they respond to our preaching work. By doing this, our leadership has made us feel special while infusing in us an artificial sense of urgency and a tremendous burden of guilt. We feel we must preach at every waking moment, keep very accurate records and make sure we get back to every return visit because who knows if by our failure to follow through someone might actually be condemned to die forever that could have been saved.
Yet the message Jesus preached was not one of doom and gloom, but one of hope. He offered hope to the masses. If they failed to respond, were they condemned to eternal death? That does not appear to be the case; but they would lose out on the wondrous reward he was offering.
We teach that Judas died for all time, the eternal death. Yet the prophecy that foretold that one of Jesus' intimates would betray him says this:
“12 For it was not an enemy that proceeded to reproach me; Otherwise I could put up with it. It was not an intense hater of me that assumed great airs against me; Otherwise I could conceal myself from him. 13 But it was you, a mortal man who was as my equal, One familiar to me and my acquaintance, 14 Because we used to enjoy sweet intimacy together; Into the house of God we used to walk with the throng. 15 Desolations [be] upon them! Let them go down into Sheʹol alive; For during their alien residence bad things have been within them. ” (Ps 55:12-15)
Even Jehovah's Witnesses now teach that those in Sheol, like Korah, will be resurrected. Judas could have been one of the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem and seen the face of God, yet his actions cost him that special reward. Still, if all in Sheol are to hear the master's voice and come out then he will live again and still have the prospect of life on earth should he remain faithful. I cannot say for sure, but this seems to be the message. (Rev 21:3, 14; Mt 5:8; John 5:28)
Of course, this is not what the Governing Body would have us believe because they teach a two-hope system of salvation and the second hope is eternal life on earth, and the only option to missing out on that hope must be, by definition, eternal death. So those who reject our second hope cannot still be allowed to live as that would invalidate our teaching.
This is why I've come to realize that the Bible does not teach two hopes but one hope. At least, one hope at a time. Those who reject or miss out on the hope that Jesus extended will experience the eventuality of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Those resurrected will then be given one hope--for the opportunity for the previous hope will have passed--and they will be able to accept it or reject it.
Comment by kev on 2015-03-26 05:39:01
Regarding the sheep and goats in my opinion jesus is just simply showing us what we needto do in order to be a faithful slave of his . The humanitarian and caring works of a christian who has the power in his hand to help those who we may feel are the least of our and christs brothers those who are suffering and those disadvantaged in some way . By doing so the faithful slave gives the domestics thier food at the proper time when they deserately need help . ..The timing is the second coming when the master returns and gives each one his reward for his works of love and mercy toward others . .Note in the parable that sheep inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world .. its very similar to the dragnet and the wheat and weeds parable . . Thats the way it seems to me anyway . .. Meleti you dont have to post this ...i just hope these points may help .
Reply by Markchristopher on 2015-03-28 04:35:46
Also Kev.As you say the sheep inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the begining.As flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, they must receive immortal bodies, so are also Christ's Brothers!
Comment by Chris on 2015-03-28 18:40:10
CT Russell taught that there is in hope: The High Calling. A christians are part of that race that only 144,000 will win. The rest will be part of the great crowd that will serve JEHOVAH in heaven. The earth was only a promise to the JEWS and will be for the restoration of mankind. Only During the Gospel Age are those who are following JESUS going to Heaven.
Reply by Chris on 2015-03-28 18:40:42
Sorry. That there is ONE hope.
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-29 01:36:57
My dear sister Imgonaburn, How I wish I was with you right now to give you a big hug. I am so grateful that you took the time to give a comment. Otherwise, I would never know how much pain you are in so I can offer my support, encouragement and love.
I remember being at the stage you are at right now. I too left off the Bible and I even stopped praying because it was more than I could handle. I felt so far away from Jehovah, and I felt so unworthy and unforgivable that I could never find my way back.
It took time for me to come to the realization that it was not Jehovah who let me down. It was the religious leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body, who had misled me through their words in the Watchtower and other publications.
I had placed my life and my trust in earthly men and they had let me down with their false prophesies and their continuing deception.They stole the foundation of my whole life. I was vulnerable to everything I stood to lose to those earthly men. They had the power to take away my family and friends I had known all my life.
It did not come easy, but I began to realize that leaving the organization did not mean that I was leaving Jehovah. They are not the same thing at all! The GB claims to speak for God, but they do not! Jehovah can speak for himself and he does.
The daunting challenge for me was to begin the long separation of what was true and what was a lie. Truth and lies were so intertwined and had been woven together so cleverly during my over fifty years of being a Jehovah's Witness that I am still finding some JW programming difficult to let go. Especially the tendency to judge others. I can say that I am getting better at it. I now put myself in their place and ask how I would like to be treated and empathy and sympathy quickly follow.
I have been disfellowshipped for several years now. It was hard, but I had to take off those blinding Jehovah's Witnesses glasses that distorted my view of life. After a period of time, I found myself being drawn back to a relationship with God and the Bible. Through it all I held onto the belief that God is love, it was the only thing that kept me going.
I wanted someone to fellowship with who understood a JW background, so I turned to the internet. On this very site, I began to come to a more accurate knowledge and understanding of the Bible's message of the love that Jesus brought to the earth. One of the most important things I learned is that Jehovah turned our salvation over to Jesus when he was resurrected from the grave. So Jesus does the judging of our hearts, and he has lived here on this very earth and knows firsthand the difficult challenges we all face day to day. He was moved to pity when he saw the conditions of the crowds attracted to him.
Everything you are feeling now is a perfectly normal reaction to the pain you are in because you are in a state of utter confusion. I believe that when you said "practice kindness and love and tolerance of others and for that to be sufficient to gain favour with God", you are closer to the truth than you realize.
The two dearest people in my life are my dad, who died 28 years ago and my grown son. I know what you are going through when you think about your loved ones and cannot imagine a future without them in it, what kind of paradise would that be? How could you ever be happy without them around?
Those were my thoughts. I saw the good in my dad's heart and I see the good in my son's heart, as well as their faults, but I am completely powerless about their future. It is out of my hands and I have to leave it in Jesus' hands. I have chosen to live my life in imitation of Jesus love for our Father and for our neighbor. That is all I can do and I have come to be content and at peace with that decision.
My dearest sister, it is so easy to be overwhelmed by all that you are going through. I have already prayed and asked Jesus to send the Holy Spirit to you to guide you.
Your loving sisterReply by Imgonaburn on 2015-03-29 09:21:52
I've shed a few tears since my last post! I'm shocked at the sudden outburst of emotion I felt. I haven't really mourned what I've lost but I think I need to do that next and move on. I do have a stressful month ahead as my son and his partner are being evicted from their home and I'm anxious about that. I really appreciate the kind words and prayers (country girl) I think it's starting to dawn on me that I don't need to be angry or feel like I've failed to live up to what jws and the GB expected of me. I just need to calm my heart. To love the act of loving others as fellow humans and to leave things for now in the hands of Jesus. I've been perhaps too wrapped up in the injustice of it all! Considering it was life's injustice that brought me to jws then it's a bitter pill to swallow when it's the same thing that has motivated me to leave. They will just have to do what they will and yet I will continue to love my family and my fellow man and hope that it draws me closer to God.
Reply by menrov on 2015-03-29 09:32:32
Dear SIster, happy to see all the comforting replies for you. I always feel sad if I read stories like yours. A true Christian organisation should cherish its sheep. Jesus did cherish all those who came to Him. Even if one was a convicted criminal or a prostitute. Jesus said that loving your neighbour meant the fulfillment of the law. Therefore indeed, continue to love your family and your fellow man is what draw one close to the Son and through Him to the Father. I see this not as something to hope for but as a promise. Take care!!!
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-03-29 07:23:56
Without love the truth is nothing, but without truth, that is the love of truth, there is no salvation.
"and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thes 2:10
The truth is found in God's inspired word, the Bible. Keep searching.
Comment by Imgonaburn on 2015-03-29 10:31:55
Thank you brothers and sisters for your kind comforting words. Please be aware that you have lifted my spirits and returned to me a glimmer of hope. Thank you so much xx
Reply by kev on 2015-03-29 18:10:06
My dear sister i just wish i could do more to give you encouragement . One of the problems i think with the minset of the JWs is that they have become judgemental . We can qoute the law of moses if we want.. We can sit there and use the scriptures to beat others .because they dont seem to measure up .. The real truth is though that not one of us do measure up wether we are gay or not all of us have sinned and continue to sin in one way or another .All of us are imperfect leading to all sorts of different traits we may have . Paul mentions because of this we should not judge others Romans 2 v1 . The fact is that we just cannot see the heart of others .If God can forgive david for adultery lies and murder then no one is beyond forgiveness . We need to live in hope that one day jesus will have mercy on each one of us . Always remember that love is the answer and it does not keep account of the injury so try and keep your head high .. Your brother Kevin
Reply by Imgonaburn on 2015-03-30 09:36:40
Thanks Kev
I agree with you about the jws being a bit judgemental. My 2 older adult kids try not to be judgemental but they can't help themselves. They have backed right off and they know it hurts me but I believe that it hurts them too. I hope one day they will think more about the 'golden rule' and set aside their fear.
When I said that I thought that jws are intrinsically linked to the bible I didn't mean it as if they adhere to scripture so closely that they have the interpretation spot on etc. I have a mental block when it comes to diligent study of the bible as it just takes me back to when I was going to meetings and was unhappy. Being a part of that religion has tarnished the bible for me. If I think about scripture too much I always come back to one thought process and that is this- if Jesus taught us to love God and love our neighbour then why can we not just do that- Without any sense of 'love' only being acceptable in a heterosexual or familial or neighbourly way. I cannot accept that the love that my son has for his partner is of less value than the love that a man has for a woman. It is that one thing that causes a stumbling block for me. I don't think I can return to a form of worship that doesn't accept love just for what it is. A gift from God. It's such a cruel harsh world that I believe that all acts of love between consenting adults should be appreciated. I know that some people will consider my stance on this to be tainted by worldy influences but it's what's in my gut, my head and my heart. If that means Imgonaburn then I'm sorry but so be it.
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-03-29 14:33:38
My sister Imgonaburn, a glimmer of hope! That is exactly what I needed, just a spark of hope. When I felt that little tiny ray of hope...that is the moment I knew that I would somehow find the strength and the courage to eventually be OK again.
Circumstances can overwhelm anyone. It is only false pride when we say we would never do "something"! Just look at Peter denying Jesus, not once but three times, a thing he said he would never do. When Peter faced the actual test, he failed because of fear of men. Jesus forgave him for that and loved him still.
My heart cries over all that you have been through. Mother's feel their children's joy and pain as is it were their very own. Because men are wired differently from women, I am not sure that they ever experience the depth and range of feelings we mother's go through.
Your life sounds like the perfect storm right now. Being caregiver to two boys with special needs for nearing twenty years, all the while feeling judged by your brothers and sisters and yourself. I think no human judges us as harshly as we judge ourselves. Sometimes we get so caught up in judging ourselves, that we forget that Jesus is the one judging our hearts. If He can forgive our sins and wipe them out completely from his thoughts, who are we to know better than Jesus? Surely we must learn to forgive ourselves? We must be especially kind and gentle and take good care of ourselves when we are dealing with burnout.
As far as your gay son, I can't even imagine how much pain and stress that causes. I have found that it is possible to love and accept a person unconditionally while hating their behaviour or some of their choices in life. Perhaps you can hold onto both God's hand and your sons' as I am learning to do. My son does not believe in God. I have done all I can do, I raised him with as much love and care as it was humanly possible to give him and now that he is grown, I have to let him go to live his own life. I am not responsible for his beliefs anymore. Our children never belonged to us anyway even though we gave birth to them. Our responsibility was to protect them, nurture, guide them and give them the tools they would need to survive on their own. No parent can ever do that perfectly...we can't give what we don't have. Sometimes we get so caught up or enmeshed in the day to day demands, that we completely forget to give them all the tools they will need later in life.
We don't get a second chance, we just do the best we can. That was the easy part for me. The hard part is letting go. He is 30 years old and there are times that I want to pick up his 6'3" body and hold him close to my heart, rock him and make everything in his world OK again like I could when he was a baby.
All I can do is love him and accept him just as he is today. That is at once the greatest challenge and the greatest gift I can give him now. I don't have to choose between them, I can hold God's hand and hold my son's hand at the same time....and just let go that I cannot control the future. I do pray and beg Jesus to send Holy Spirit into his heart to restore his love of Jehovah.
Perhaps there are some more lessons for our sons to learn on their own. If your son is evicted, he will learn the hard way that at some point in life, we have to answer for the choices we make. If we as parents rescue our grown children from the consequences of their actions, are we really helping them to grow up? Or, are we enabling them to a life of co-dependency? Who will rescue them when we are no longer around? Who knew that tough love would hurt parents far, far more than it would hurt our children? When will our sons become men if we rob them of the chance to stand on their own two feet?
These are the questions I ask myself about my own son. Why are the answers so clear when it's not my son being evicted? My greatest fear is that if my own son were facing eviction, would I see what I loathe most of all, a hypocrite in the mirror?
Another part of this perfect storm is being failed by organized religion. I hope it will bring you comfort to know that more and more individuals are able to leave organized religion entirely and end up having a deeper and much more personal relationship with our heavenly father, Jehovah God, and our great Redeemer Jesus Christ.
I continue praying for Holy Spirit for you....and for me. And for the rest of God's children here on earth.
Your loving sister
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-03-30 13:27:22
With regards to the identification of the sheep and the goats at Matthew 25.
Isaiah 24:6(b) "Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left." If this scripture is relating to Armageddon and there are survivors, then could these survivors be the sheep and goats? Skye
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-03-30 17:51:50
Also, Matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne." - Could this be after the resurrection of the elect; and therefore the survivors of Armageddon (Isa 24:6(b)) - that is if they are the sheep and goats - the sheep who treated Christ's brothers well are to inherit the Kingdom (on the earth) for the first part of the Kingdom, that is the 1,000 years. This would fit with Isa 65 - The New Heavens and New Earth, where we see there will be mortals living on the earth. Skye
Comment by katrina on 2015-03-31 02:57:16
So many comforting words and love for this dear sister, I fully understand what she is going through, all these loving posts to reach out has no doubt been a help for others to reading this site, one just does not know how many others you all have helped by your loving kindness and to the sister that has opened up her heart she to has helped others probably without knowing herself, thank you all, Jehovah's spirit will guide others here for sure that are feeling exactly the way a lot of us do, this is truly a wonderful site for all those crying and groaning about what is and has been happening to the one religion we came to love and trust, but then to realise its all about Christ and his example of showing love to one another that is the real truth that brings glory to God and enriches our lives by drawing closer to our heavenly father to be healed.
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