It is our belief – indeed, the official teaching of our Organization – that should someone who rejects our message die, he will return in the resurrection of the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15) In this way, we show that Jehovah is fair and just, for who knows but that the individual might have taken a stand for righteousness had he only lived a little longer.
However, this all changes when Armageddon arrives. We believe that sheep-like ones accept the hope and join our organization. The goats are outside and they die at Armageddon, going into everlasting cutting off. (Mt 25:31-46)
Of all our beliefs, this one bothers us the most. We hold Jehovah to be fair, just, and loving. He would never condemn someone to the second death without first giving him fair warning; a chance to change his course. Yet, we are charged with giving the nations that chance through our preaching and we simply can't do it. We have been saddled with an impossible task; denied the tools to fully accomplish our ministry. Are we to be held accountable for failing to reach everyone adequately? Or is a greater work ahead? To alleviate our troubled conscience, many hope for some such miraculous change to our preaching work near the end.
This is a real conundrum, you see? Either Jehovah doesn't treat everyone equally, or we are wrong about the hope we preach. If we are preaching a hope to survive Armageddon and live in a paradise earth, then those who do not accept the hope cannot get the reward. They must die. Otherwise, our preaching is redundant – a bad joke.
Or perhaps...just perhaps...our whole premise is wrong.
The Premise
Undoubtedly, Armageddon is a necessary mechanism for cleansing the earth of wickedness. One could hardly expect to achieve a new world of righteousness, peace, and security without first removing all elements that would undermine it. In our current wicked system of things, millions of lives are aborted yearly. Millions more die annually in infancy due to disease and widespread malnutrition. Then there are the millions who reach adulthood only to live in squalor all their lives, eking out an existence so meager most of us in the West would rather die than have to face it.
In the developed world, we are like the Romans of Jesus’ day, comfortable in our wealth, secure in our overwhelming military might, taking for granted the privileged life we lead. Yet we too have our poor, our suffering masses. We are not free of disease, pain, violence, insecurity and depression. Even if we are among the privileged few who escape all these maladies, we still grow old, decrepit and eventually die. So if our already short lives are shortened even further by God’s Great War, what of it? One way or the other, everybody dies. All is vanity. (Ps 90:10; Ec 2:17)
However, the hope of the resurrection changes all that. With the resurrection, life does not end. It is merely interrupted – like a night’s sleep interrupts your daily routine. Do you notice the hours you spend asleep? Do you even regret them? Of course not.
Think back to Sodom and Lot's sons-in-law. They were destroyed along with the rest of the city’s inhabitants when fire rained down from heaven. Yes, they died...many centuries ago. Yet from their point of view, their life will be one unbroken string of consciousness. Subjectively, the gap will be nonexistent. There is no injustice in this. No one can point a finger at God and cry, “Foul!”
So why, you might ask, would the JW belief in Armageddon cause us any disquiet? Why can’t Jehovah simply resurrect those killed at Armageddon like he’s going to do with the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah? (Mt 11:23, 24; Lu 17:28, 29)
The Conundrum
If Jehovah resurrects people that he kills at Armageddon, he invalidates our preaching work. We preach an earthly hope.
Here, in a nutshell, is our official position:
We have been pulled from the dangerous “waters” of this wicked world into the “lifeboat” of Jehovah’s earthly organization. Within it, we serve side by side as we head for the “shores” of a righteous new world. (w97 1/15 p. 22 par. 24 What Does God Require of Us?)
Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization. (w06 5/15 p. 22 par. 8 Are You Prepared for Survival?)
Resurrecting those killed at Armageddon means giving them the same reward as that granted to those in the ark-like organization of Armageddon survivors. It cannot be, so we teach that it isn't so and preach a message that requires conversion for salvation.
So why the difference between Armageddon and Sodom and Gomorrah? Simply put, those in Sodom and Gomorrah did not get preached to, and therefore were not given an opportunity to change. That does not satisfy God's justice and impartiality. (Acts 10:34) That is no longer the case, we argue. We are fulfilling Matthew 24:14.
Until then, the anointed will take the lead in something that is well-documented by our annual service report—the greatest preaching and teaching work in human history. (w11 8/15 p. 22 Questions From Readers [boldface added])
If you wonder at the apparent effrontery of such a grandiose claim given that the preaching work started by Jesus has resulted in over two billion people claiming to be Christian compared with the paltry eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses, please understand that we don’t count those billions. We believe that true Christianity died out in the second century to be replaced by apostate Christianity. Since there are only 144,000 anointed Christians in all, and since the gathering of the other sheep with an earthly hope only began in the 20th century, the eight million that have joined our ranks in the past hundred years are the true Christians gathered in from all that nations. This in our view is an outstanding accomplishment.
Be this as it may, let us not get sidetracked into a debate about whether this is an accurate interpretation of events or merely an indication of communal hubris. The matter at hand is that this belief has forced us to the conclusion that all who die at Armageddon can have no resurrection hope. Exactly why is that? It can best be explained by slightly modifying an illustration I heard once at a public talk in the Kingdom Hall:
Let's say there is a volcanic island which is about to explode. Like Krakatoa, this island will be obliterated and all life on it, destroyed. Scientists from an advanced country go to the island to warn the primitive natives about the impending disaster. The locals have no idea of the destruction about to befall them. The mountain is rumbling, but this has happened before. They are not worried. They comfortable with their lifestyle and do not want to leave. Besides, they don’t really know these strangers talking crackpot ideas of doom and gloom. They have their own government and are not enamored by the idea of having to conform to a new way of life under different rules in their soon-to-be new country. Thus, only a small number respond to the warning and take the offered escape. Shortly after the last plane leaves, the island explodes killing all those who stayed behind. They were given a hope, a chance for survival. They chose not to take it. Therefore, the fault is theirs.
This is the reasoning behind the theology of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding Armageddon. We are told that we are in a life-saving work. In fact, if we do not engage in it, we ourselves will become blood-guilty and will die at Armageddon. This idea is reinforced by likening our time to that of Ezekiel.
“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life.” (Eze 3:17-19)
A critically minded observer—one familiar with the full body of our doctrines—will note that everyone back then who died for not listening to Ezekiel’s warning will still be resurrected.[i] (Acts 24:15) So the comparison with our pre-Armageddon work doesn’t quite fit. Nevertheless, this fact escapes the notice of virtually all my JW brethren. Thus, we go door to door motivated by love for our fellow man, hoping to save some from the exploding volcano which is the impending war of Armageddon.
Yet, in the dark recesses of our mind we realize that the comparison just made with the natives living on the volcanic island doesn’t quite fit either. All those natives were forewarned. This is simply not the case with our preaching work. There are millions in Muslim lands who have never been preached to. There are millions more living in slavery of one form or another. Even in lands where there is relative freedom, there are multitudes of abused individuals whose upbringing has been so deplorable as to render them emotionally dysfunctional. Others have been so betrayed and abused by their own religious leaders that there is little hope of them ever trusting another. Given all this, how can we have the effrontery to suggest that our brief door-to-door visits and literature cart displays constitute a fair and appropriate life-saving opportunity for the peoples of earth. Truly, what hubris!
We try to reason our way out of this contradiction by speaking of community responsibility, but our innate sense of justice just won’t have it. We are, even in our sinful state, made in God’s image. A sense of fairness is part of our DNA; it is built into our God-given conscience, and even the youngest of children recognize when something “just isn’t fair”.
In fact, our teaching as Jehovah’s Witnesses is not only inconsistent with our knowledge of the character (name) of God, but also with evidence revealed in the Bible. One outstanding example is that of Saul of Tarsus. As a Pharisee, he was well aware of Jesus’ ministry and his miraculous works. He was also highly educated and well informed. Yet, it took a miraculous apparition of blinding light along with a loving rebuke by our Lord Jesus to correct his wayward course. Why would Jesus make such an effort to save him, but pass over some poor pre-adolescent girl in India sold into slavery by her parents for the bride-price they could obtain? Why would he save Saul the persecutor, but bypass some poor street urchin in Brazil who spends his life scrounging for food and hiding from neighborhood thugs? The Bible even acknowledges that one’s station in life can impede one’s relationship with God.
“Give me neither poverty nor riches. Just let me consume my portion of food, 9 So that I do not become satisfied and deny you and say, “Who is Jehovah?” Nor let me become poor and steal and dishonor the name of my God.” (Pr 30:8, 9)
In Jehovah’s eyes, are some humans simply not worth the effort? Perish the thought! Yet that is the conclusion to which our JW doctrine leads us.
I Still Don`t Get It!
Perhaps you still don’t get it. Perhaps you still can’t see why Jehovah can’t spare some at Armageddon, or failing that, resurrect everyone in his own good time and way during the 1000 years of Christ's future reign.
To understand why this won’t work based on our teaching of a dual-hope salvation, consider that those who survive Armageddon – those in the Ark-like organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses – do not get eternal life. What they get is a chance at it. They survive but must continue in their sinful state working toward perfection over the course of the thousand years. If they fail to do that, they will still die.
Our belief is that faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses who have died prior to Armageddon will be resurrected as part of the resurrection of the righteous. These ones are declared righteous as God's friends, but that is all the declaration amounts to. They continue in their sinful state progressing toward perfection at the end of the thousand years together with the Armageddon survivors.
Those chosen by God for heavenly life must, even now, be declared righteous; perfect human life is imputed to them. (Romans 8:1) This is not necessary now for those who may live forever on earth. But such ones can now be declared righteous as friends of God, as was faithful Abraham. (James 2:21-23; Romans 4:1-4) After such ones achieve actual human perfection at the end of the Millennium and then pass the final test, they will be in position to be declared righteous for everlasting human life. (From w85 12/15 p. 30)
Those who return in the resurrection of the unrighteous will also come back as sinful humans, and they too will have to work toward perfection at the end of the thousand years.
Think of it! Under Jesus’ loving attention, the entire human family—Armageddon survivors, their offspring, and the thousands of millions of resurrected dead who obey him—will grow toward human perfection. (w91 6/1 p. 8 [Boldface added])
Does this not seem silly? What real difference is there between those who accepted the hope and made huge sacrifices in their lives and those who ignored God?
“And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”” (Mal 3:18)
indeed, where is the distinction?
This is bad enough, but somehow we have come to accept this as part of our theology; likely because as human beings we really don't want anybody to die – especially dead "unbelieving" parents and siblings. But it would be too much to apply the same logic to those were destroyed at Armageddon. It would be as if the inhabitants of that condemned island who chose not to get on the planes and fly away to safety were somehow miraculously teleported to the new country anyway; escaping despite their refusal to accept the hope extended. If that were the case, why even bother going to the island in the first place? Why trouble yourself with the time, expense and burden of trying to convince a resistant population if their salvation never depended on your efforts at all?
We are faced with an irresolvable paradox. Either Jehovah is unfair in condemning people to death without ever giving them a real opportunity for survival, or our preaching work is an exercise in futility.
We have even made tacit acknowledgement of this incongruity in our publications.
The “unrighteous” will need more help than the “righteous.” During their lifetime they did not hear of God’s provision, or else they did not heed when the good news came to their attention. Circumstances and environment had much to do with their attitudes. Some did not even know that there is a Christ. Others were so hindered by worldly pressures and cares that the “seed” of the good news did not take permanent root in their hearts. (Matt. 13:18-22) The present system of things under the invisible influence of Satan the Devil has “blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Cor. 4:4) It is not a ‘second chance’ for those resurrected ones. It is their first real opportunity to get eternal life on earth through faith in Jesus Christ. (w74 5/1 p. 279 A Judgment That Balances Justice with Mercy)
If the resurrection of the unrighteous is not a second chance, but the first real opportunity for those who die prior to Armageddon, how could it be any different for those poor souls who happen to have the misfortune to be alive at Armageddon? These will not be possessed of some supernatural wisdom and insight that their dead forbearers lacked, will they?
Yet our belief in an earthly hope requires this. Resurrecting those who die at Armageddon would turn the JW preaching of an earthly hope into a cruel joke. We tell people that they have to make great sacrifices for the hope of escaping death at Armageddon and living in the new world. They must give up family and friends, forgo a career, spend thousands of hours in the preaching work over a lifetime and endure the disdain and mockery of the world. But it is all worthwhile, for they get to live while the rest die. So Jehovah can’t resurrect the unrighteous he kills at Armageddon. He can't give them the very same reward of living in the New World. Were that the case, then what are we making sacrifices for?
This is the same argument, albeit in reverse, that Paul made to the Ephesians:
“Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephʹe·sus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.”” (1Co 15:29-32)
His point is valid. If there is no resurrection, then what were first century Christians fighting for?
“For if the dead are not to be raised up…we are of all men most to be pitied.” (1Co 15:15-19)
How ironic that we should now be able to completely reverse Paul’s reasoning. Our doctrine of a final call in the last days for people to be saved from Armageddon by those with a newly revealed earthly hope requires that there be no resurrection of those who die at Armageddon. If there is, then we who give up so much in the belief that we alone will survive into the New World “are of all men most to be pitied”.
Whenever we are faced with such a contradiction arising from two mutually exclusive premises, it is time to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we got something wrong. It’s time to go back to square one.
Starting at Square One
When Jesus began his preaching work, he extended one hope for all those who would become his disciples. It was the hope of ruling with him in his Kingdom. He was looking to form a kingdom of priests who would, together with him, restore all humankind to the blessed state that Adam had prior to his rebellion. From 33 CE onward, the message that Christians preached consisted of that hope.
Watchtower disagrees with this point of view.
Jesus Christ, though, is leading meek ones into a peaceful new world, where obedient mankind will be united in the worship of Jehovah God and will press forward toward perfection. (w02 3/15 p. 7)
Nevertheless, this arbitrary statement finds no support whatsoever in Scripture.
With the hope that Jesus actually taught, there were but two outcomes: Accept the hope and win the heavenly reward, or reject the hope and miss out. If you missed out, you could not be declared righteous in this system of things and so could not be freed from sin and could not inherit the kingdom. You would continue as unrighteous and the unrighteous are resurrected as such. They will then have the opportunity to get right with God by accepting the help provided by Christ’s “Kingdom of Priests”.
For 1900 years, this was the only hope extended. The apparent delay was due to the need to collect a particular number of such ones to fill the need. (2Pe 3:8, 9; Re 6:9-11) All was well until the mid-1930s when Judge Rutherford came up with an unscriptural idea based wholly on fabricated types and antitypes that there was another hope. This secondary hope was that by becoming a member of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a person could survive Armageddon to live in the New World, albeit still as an imperfect human, still needing redemption. In this way he differed not at all from the resurrected unrighteous other than that he got a “head start” on attaining perfection. By definition, this interpretation condemns the billions who will die at Armageddon to eternal destruction.
Resolving the Contradiction
The only way we can resolve this contradiction – the only way we can show that Jehovah is just and righteous – is to abandon our God-dishonoring doctrine of an earthly hope. It has no basis in Scripture in any case, so why do we cling to it so tenaciously? Billions will be resurrected in the New World – that is true. But this is not extended as a hope that they must accept or reject.
To illustrate this let's return to our volcanic island, but this time we’ll make it fit the facts of history.
A loving, wise and wealthy ruler has foreseen the approaching destruction of the island. He has purchased an extensive piece of land on the continent so as to create a new country all his own. Its terrain is beautiful and varied. However, it is completely devoid of human life. He then appoints his son whom he trusts completely to go forth and save the people on the island. Knowing that most of the island’s inhabitants are incapable of understanding all the ramifications of their circumstances, the son decides that he will take them all by force to the new land. However, he cannot do so until he first sets up a supportive infrastructure; a governmental administration. Otherwise, there would be chaos and violence. He needs capable rulers, ministers, and healers. These he will take from the island’s own people since only those who have lived on that island fully understand its culture and the needs of its people. He journeys to the island and sets about gathering such ones. He has rigid standards which must be met, and only a few measure up. These, he selects, trains, and prepares. He tests them all for fitness. Then, before the volcano erupts, he takes all these ones to the new country, and sets them up. Next, he forcibly brings all inhabitants of the island to the new country, but in a way that allows all to acclimatize to their new circumstances. They are helped and guided by his chosen ones. Some reject all assistance and continue in ways that endanger the peace and security of the populace. These ones are removed. But many, freed of all the encumbrances that hindered them in their former life on the island, gladly embrace their new and better life.
When Does Armageddon Come?
The Bible does not say that Armageddon will come once everyone on earth has had an opportunity to accept or reject the hope of living forever on earth. What it does say is this:
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.” (Re 6:9-11)
Jehovah will call an end to this old system of things when the full number of Jesus’ brothers is complete. Once his chosen ones have been removed from the scene, he will release the four winds. (Mt 24:31; Re 7:1) He may allow some to survive Armageddon. Or he make start with a clean slate, and use the resurrection of the unrighteous to progressively repopulate the earth. These are details about which we can only speculate.
It appears that some will not get a resurrection. There are those who go out of their way to make tribulation on Jesus’ brothers. There is an evil slave who abuses his brothers. There is a man of lawlessness who sits in God’s temple and plays the role of a rival God. Who these are and what their punishment turns out to be, we shall have to be patient to learn. Then there are others who had the hope of becoming Jesus' brothers, only to fall short of the mark. These will be punished, though apparently not with the second death. (2Th 2:3,4; Lu 12:41-48)
The simple fact is that only one hope has ever been extended to Christians. The choice isn’t between that hope and the second death. If we miss out on that hope, we have the eventuality of being resurrected in the New World. Then we will be offered an earthly hope. If we take it, we will live. If we reject it, we will die. (Re 20:5, 7-9)
_______________________________________________________
[i] The article “Who Will Be Resurrected?” in the May 1, 2005 The Watchtower (p. 13) revised the thinking of Jehovah’s Witnesses with regard to the resurrection of individuals killed directly by Jehovah. Korah, who knowingly opposed Jehovah’s anointed ones and who was swallowed up by the earth as a consequence of his rebellion is now considered to be among those in the memorial tombs (Sheol) who will hear the master’s voice and come forth. (John 5:28)
Archived Comments
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Comment by Libertas on 2015-04-08 14:01:42
Meleti
Another serios problem will arose if one trying to properly explain Luke 20,34-36 with the two hope doctrine in mind:
Jesus said to them: “The children of this system of things* marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.+ 36 In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection. - NWT
Comment by answersforjws on 2015-04-08 16:10:04
What you condemn as unscriptural is the very hope the majority of Christianity today hold: Christians will eventually live forever on earth. The notion of resurrection to heaven is the later idea. When Rutherford introduced it, he didn't present a new idea but an old one. What the watchtower taught previously and teaches now for the 144,000 is the new idea. All will live on the earth (Matthew 5:5), including Jesus (Acts 3:21).
Reply by Silus-silvanus on 2015-04-08 20:02:36
Agreed. NWT Rev 5:10 reads " they will rule over the earth" implying that the anointed rule from heaven. This is a sanitized version of the translation. The same scripture in the Italian translation of the NWT says " they will rule on earth" . most translations read this way. That Jesus and the 144000 will rule on earth. There is nothing in scripture to say that Jesus parousia is a fly by... That is he comes and then he goes back to heaven.
Daniels image of gold,silver, copper and so forth is struck by a stone and this stone grows and fills the earth.. It doesn't go back to heaven.Reply by answersforjws on 2015-04-09 00:16:47
I agree that it has been used to suggest ones rule in heaven, but it is actually ambiguous. "Over the earth" is in fact the proper translation, but just as David ruled over Israel, it didn't mean he did so from somewhere else.
Reply by anderestimme on 2015-04-09 14:53:05
I have to agree. Jesus promised his disciples that they would inherit the earth, and promises like those found at Psalm 37 don't go away just because they're in the OT. It is a little confusing because of Jesus' promises regarding his disciples' being with him in his father's house, but the idea that inheriting the earth implies living on it is hard to refute. Perhaps faithful humans will be granted the ability to materialize and de-materialize like the angels of Noah's day.
Now, there's an odd thought.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-09 16:26:23
Another variable is the definition of heaven. The word is used in different ways in the Bible and one has to look at the context to try to distinguish between one and the other.
Reply by qspf on 2015-04-20 15:01:50
I did quite a bit of research on this question of "on" vs. "over", and according to the interlinear resources and concordances I found, there's basically no difference between "on" and "over" in this context, based on the Greek word "epi". The reference bible tries to justify translating "epi" as "over" because the word is used in the Greek genitive case. However, there is a subtlety of translation here even for the genitive case. When used to signify location, "epi" means "on" or "upon", while when signifying rulership with respected to persons being under authority, "epi" means "over".
Thus, it would be incorrect to imply to infer that "epi" means "over" in the sense of those who "rule as kings over the earth" meant something like they were "in the heavens" and "flying over the earth". Nothing at all implies heaven here. "epi" simply describes rulership over a governed people, and has nothing to do with where those rulers are. And, by some chance "epi" DID mean where they are? They are ON the earth.
The Greek grammar simply doesn't allow for any other interpretations.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-09 16:56:39
Jesus spoke repeatedly of the "kingdom of the heavens". Not the kingdom of the earth. So before we can categorically state that the first hope was for Christians to live forever on earth, one needs to present some hard evidence.
Reply by silas Silvanus on 2015-04-09 23:59:38
The scriptures also speak about storing our treasures in heaven. This is not literal. We cannot physically store our gold and silver there.
James 1:17 says.. Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows.
So in the Hebrew mind all good and perfect things come from gods hand... or from heaven. Therefore the expression "kingdom of the heavens" has the same meaning.
God has stored up in heaved a perfect promise for the anointed brothers of Christ.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-10 08:19:55
Excellent reasoning, but hardly proof of one view or the other.
Reply by Skye on 2015-04-10 12:28:26
Silas Silvanus, James 1:17 - what an interesting scripture which I now intend to research in line with your comments. Thank you for that, much appreciated.
Reply by Nightingale on 2015-04-12 13:38:43
I call these verses "heavenly bank" verses and there are quite a lot of them: Matthew 5:12, 6:20, 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 6:23, Luke 18:22, 2 Cor 5:1, Phil 3:20, Col 1:5, 1 Peter 1:4 etc. It is such a shame that so many people think that they mean people go to heaven. When someone retires, does he go to live in the bank where his savings have been invested?
Reply by qspf on 2015-04-23 13:21:39
Regarding "about storing our treasures in heaven". Even if we were to agree that our "treasures" were stored in heaven, Jesus did NOT say that we would store OURSELVES in heaven some day. We know for certain that heaven is the dwelling place of God. What could be "stored" with God? Only our good name, our reputation as humble persons endeavoring to do right. If God has received that message and "treasured" the manner in which we have lived our lives, by viewing us and our lives in a favorable way, in way do we need ourselves to be relocated to heaven?
Reply by anderestimme on 2015-04-10 11:53:30
I think that we simply do not have sufficient knowledge now to fully understand - and reconcile - Jesus' promises at Matt 5:3, 5. It's easy to see a correlation between 'inheriting the earth' and the promises at, say, Psalm 37. However, I firmly believe that the all-earth-no-heaven viewpoint is just as wrong as the all-heaven-no-earth viewpoint. Faithful Christians will go to where Jesus is and see God, and they will inherit the earth and reside upon it. I'd love to know the finer details now, but I can wait.
Reply by Nightingale on 2015-04-12 13:24:39
Kingdom of the heavens = Kingdom of God, Matthew 19:23, 24. Only Matthew uses the term "kingdom of the heavens", where heaven refers to God. At the time the word God was sometimes substituted by the word heaven, for example "I have sinned against heaven" i.e. against God. The Bible never mentions "kingdom in heaven".
Comment by on 2015-04-08 18:48:14
Sometimes I think we pat ourselves on the back a little too much, and especially when it comes to the pioneer ministry. I must admit that many pioneers I know are hard working, but what do all their efforts add up to when it comes to Bible studies and the number baptized in this country. At my recent Circuit Assembly, 3 were baptized from our part of the circuit, one being the son of a brother in my congregation. Our Circuit has a total of 341 regular pioneers. Do the math. It means a lot of man hours went into making the 2 new ones in a 6 month period of activity. I find my own ministry frustrating and unproductive. Thanks Meleti, for your excellent points.
Comment by lightflashup on 2015-04-08 19:36:45
Hi Meleti, thank you for seeing it as important to spend the time and effort in writing these articles.
may you continue to find the encouragement to continue .
light is goodReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-08 19:42:23
Thanks, lightflashup. Much appreciated.
Comment by Silus-silvanus on 2015-04-08 19:54:01
I would ask you all to present scriptural proof (sola scritura... "Only scripture") that the resurrection of the unrighteousness is a progressive process that happens during the thousand years.
The fact is that even JW's know that there is no scriptural support for this teaching. It is an extrapolation of understandings. If this is then unsupported in scripture, then perhaps we need to go back to basics and see what the scriptures actually say about the first and second resurrections...Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-08 22:15:23
It cannot be proven just as we cannot prove that the resurrection of the unrighteous occurs after the thousand years is over as some contend. All we can do is theorize. In the end, it isn't important that we understand the details now, only the big picture.
Reply by on 2015-04-13 16:00:53
"I would ask you all to present scriptural proof (sola scritura… “Only scripture”) that the resurrection of the unrighteousness is a progressive process that happens during the thousand years."
Well, you know we can’t do that; there just isn’t any.
Rom 9:28- For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
1 Cor 6:2 - For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
According to scriptures, Christ’s Thousand Year kingdom has been going on since the first century. It is under God’s time period, not our literal interpretation of it. Is Christ subduing his enemies now?
1 Cor 15:25 - For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. Ps 110:1,2; Matt 28:18
Here is the battle presently being fought in the spiritual realm, appearing in our literal realm in the form of lies from the mouths of false prophets or counterfeit priests:
Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.” Rev 12:17
God rebuilds His spiritual Temple with those loyal to truth in Christ, the Word, throughout this ongoing spiritual war – the building began with the foundation stones, the apostles.
John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Heb 8:5
1 Pet 4:17,18 - The time has evidently arrived for God’s judgment to begin, and it is beginning at his own House. And if it starts with us, what is it going to mean to those who refuse to obey the Gospel of God? ‘If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?’.
2 Cor 10:3-6 - Now I am going to appeal to you personally, by the gentleness and sympathy of Christ himself. Yes, I, Paul, the one who is “humble enough in our presence but outspoken when away from us”, and begging you to make it unnecessary for me to be outspoken and stern in your presence. For I am afraid otherwise that I shall have to do some plain speaking to those of you who will persist in reckoning that our activities are on the purely human level. The truth is that, although of course we lead normal human lives, the battle we are fighting is on the spiritual level. The very weapons we use are not those of human warfare but powerful in God’s warfare for the destruction of the enemy’s strongholds. Our battle is to bring down every deceptive fantasy and every imposing defense that men erect against the true knowledge of God. We even fight to capture every thought until it acknowledges the authority of Christ. Once we are sure of your obedience we shall not shrink from dealing with those who refuse to obey.
In a sense, Armageddon is fulfilled in the meaning of this last sentence. Rom 2:8
Do we sit on our laurels or take up the fight with God’s chosen ones? We are seeing the obvious situation of the present battle, lies twisted to appear as our only salvation. 1 Tim 4:1-4
Those being judged now are the anointed ones, to prove worthy of building the Temple, becoming Christ’s Bride. These priests are judged first by what they teach; all mankind seeking God are also judged on their response to these teachings. Mal 2:7; Matt 10:20; John 13:20. Note the possibility in Matt 10:20 of an anointed one falling from God’s graces by adopting another father. John 8:44
Life on the earth? This is the reason for the arrangement of the Temple. Firstly, to give glory and service to God and Christ; secondly, give renewed life and service to all creation. John 1:51; Gen 28:12; Rev 22:2
Looking at it scripturally, can we “see” Armageddon in our midst? Matt 16:3
Christian love,
peely
Comment by noble_minded_thinker on 2015-04-08 21:36:36
Well done. You've managed to put in words some things I've felt since I was a child being raised in the truth. I know what's fair and the official doctrine is far from it. It really is a paradox. They cannot change it without re-evaluating the entire history and purpose of the organization. I don't expect any true believers to read this, though, which makes me sad. It's not that complicated and quite liberating. Thanks again!
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-09 03:16:02
So then, if the Good News of the Kingdom of God is not being preached as accurately as Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul preached, how extensively today is the Good News being preached - not very, I think. Would this not lead us to conclude then, that if the Good News of the Kingdom is to be preached in all the inhabited earth (Matt 24:14) that there is indeed more to come?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-09 07:10:10
That's a very good question. Just how accurately does the message of good news concerning the kingdom of God and his Christ have to be preached for Mt 24:14 to be fulfilled?
Reply by Skye on 2015-04-09 09:10:29
There is only one saving Christian Gospel which was preached by Jesus and then the apostles. This is the Good News of the Kingdom that will be preached in all the inhabited earth until the end of this system and the return of Jesus Christ.
The very same Gospel then is what Jesus true disciples should be preaching.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-09 09:39:54
True, but doesn't really answer the question you raised. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Comment by life2come on 2015-04-09 09:21:39
To me the "destination" is unimportant. I got "on the bus" when I asked God to direct my life, at my baptism. He is the driver and I will get off wherever he chooses to let me off. No sarcasm intended my brothers and sisters. Paradise on earth sounded marvelous when it was the only hope offered at the time JWs came to my door. At this point in my long life, I will go wherever He has prepared for me.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-09 10:17:15
If the Good News of the Kingdom is to be preached accurately in all the inhabited earth, then yes, there is more to come - how otherwise would the scripture be fulfilled? What we do know is that the "preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom" precedes the establishment of God's Kingdom.
"This gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-09 10:48:05
I see your point, but it is based on the assumption that to qualify for fulfillment, Mt 24:14 requires the good news to be preached "accurately". Who is to determine just how much accuracy is required for fulfillment? We have to figure that out, lay down the parameters to measure whether or not it has been preached accurately enough to qualify and then we have to determine if all the nations have received this accurate message, and then to what extent that preaching must penetrate into all the nations before prophetic fulfillment can be achieved. And boom, before you know it, we are back to figuring out just when the end will come. (Acts 1:6,7)
I don't disagree with you that as Jehovah's Witnesses we have not been preaching the good news properly. We have some things right and other things wrong. But I'm disinclined to trying to put a measure on any of it. Perhaps this is just the reaction of a man who has been disappointed by false standards of measurement over this lifetime resulting in disappointment replaced by new false hope. :)
Comment by on 2015-04-09 12:07:24
I find our message to people consist of living forever in paradise where they can enjoy owning their own home, not getting sick, playing with the animals, frolicking with their resurrected loved ones, etc. This seemed to be the thrust of the Memorail outline talk. We rarely, if ever, include Jesus Christ in our message. Join our organization and you'll be right with God. Forget about scriptures like 2 Cor. 5:18-20, or Luke 24:45-47. Any wonder growth in this country has stagnated.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-09 16:53:02
anderestimme, were you referring to John 14:2,3?
v 2 "My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?" If this is referring to the future Kingdom of God on earth, then I don't see a problem with this scripture.
v 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." When Jesus returns, if he and his brothers are to rule on the earth (Rev 5:10), then this scripture could simply mean that he was, in the meanwhile, going away to prepare positions for them in that future Kingdom on the earth.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-09 18:17:54
Further in John 14:2. I looked up the Greek word for "house" and one meaning is given as "household". Therefore could the scripture read, "in my Father's household"?
And just as an example of the term, in 1 Peter 4:17 "the house of God" is referring to God's people who are the prospective members of the Kingdom.Reply by anderestimme on 2015-04-10 12:05:16
It sounds reasonable enough to me. While I'd love to fly around the cosmos and walk through walls as much as the next guy, I won't complain if I wind up earth-bound. Paradise will be, after all, a very nice place to live. I suspect there's a little more to it than that, but I'm happy to wait and see.
Comment by kev on 2015-04-10 04:49:06
That was one of the most complicated articles i have read .It shows yet again to me how confusing things tend to get when we become unscriptural and push ahead into the area of speculation making up our own doctrines .I saw that for years on the body of elders when they started to depart from the scriptures thats when the problems started . Kev
Comment by on 2015-04-10 18:39:18
"Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief." (Matt. 24:30). Will this "beating themselves in grief" result in all the tribes of the earth not being destroyed, making a post-Armageddon resurrection unnecessary? Just a thought.
Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-04-11 04:07:49
Yes where exactly do we find the early Christians preaching a good news that entailed having a pet tiger and a palatial house on the lake,for the life of me I can't find such a message!
However,the death and ressurection of Jesus abounds as good news,and this has not been a part of the witnessing work of JWs,Paul said he was a minister of the new covenant( 2Cor3:6) I have never heard it taught that the bro and sis are ministers of the new covenant,or that they are to draw people into the new covenant,so what are they all ministers of? An organization? Hardly the good news Jesus was referring to .Reply by Skye on 2015-04-11 04:59:23
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!" Gal 1:8,9
Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-04-13 20:18:06
To go back on the point of the promises made in Psalms and Isaiah re the "earth" the word for earth (erets)in Hebrew carries the meaning of land or territory, not the planet.
When a Hebrew used this word he was using it with the understanding it referred to his territory in the "land" of Israel.
Most other translations render the word "earth "(erets) as land,which is more the meaning conveyed in Hebrew,it suits GB theology to use the word earth instead of the more correct land to add weight to the idea of the earthly hope.
It is even acknowledged by the WT that all the "earth" scriptues were fulfilled on restored Israel, they then say there is a "secondary " fullfillment with the great crowd,problem is that not Jesus or any of the nt writers connect Christian beliefs to any of these "earth " scriptures,that's the fantasy of the judge.
There is a lot of intellectual dishonesty in the NWT,they will be literal when it suits GB theology,as with the "earth" scriptures,but not so literal with words like proskenao or theos when it undermines GB theology,one thing is for sure,you can't trust GB interpretation on any of these subjects.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-13 22:11:59
Gal 3:8 says the Gospel was preached in advance to Abraham. This in short is the Gospel of the Land/Kingdom, the Gospel as preached by Jesus and the apostle Paul.
Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-04-13 22:40:26
That brings up another point.
Jehovah made a covenant with Abraham,one of the conditions was the land of Palestine,it's hard to ignore that Abrahams descendants still occupy this same land despite the attempts of bigger and more powerful adversary's to dislodge them!
Nowhere in scripture is Abrahams covenant rescinded,is natural Israel still in the picture? Your thoughts please.Reply by Skye on 2015-04-13 23:22:48
In Ezek 37 a spiritual revival of Israel is mentioned. There are many other prophecies about a recovery of now blinded natural Israel. In the meantime the church (that is the international church) is the true Israel of God, Gal 6:16 and Phil 3:3.
Paul refers to the unconverted national, natural Israel as "the Israel of the flesh", 1 Cor 10:18.
Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 are interesting.
Paul sees, that in the future, there will be a conversion of now blinded Israel.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-14 07:10:55
I will have to research this as time permits but perhaps there is someone on this forum with the information at hand. My question is, Did Jehovah promise Abraham that his descendants would inhabit Palestine forever? Because if there is no stipulation as to length of time, then we can safely say that Jehovah kept his word. They inhabited that land for 1,600 years.
Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-04-14 07:14:45
And still do!
Reply by Skye on 2015-04-14 07:57:08
The land promise to Abraham and his descendants - Christians are invited to share in this promise as spiritual children of Abraham - "the blessing of Abraham" this phrase if found in Gal 3:14 and Gen 28:4 - this is the link between the two testaments.
Abraham and his seed have never yet inherited the land/earth. In his sermon at Acts 7 (the sermon which cost him his life) Stephen said at Acts 7:5 "He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child." That promise is recorded in Gen 12, 13, 15 and all throughout the Hebrew scriptures.
Abraham will be resurrected at Jesus' return in order to take up that place in the Kingdom land under Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 11:8 clearly recalls that Abraham once lived in the promised land, as did his children, but in Hebrews 11:13 and 39 we see that these faithful ones all died "not having received the promises."
Comment by on 2015-04-14 11:26:40
Jesus is the first to inherit the earth – the second Adam. The covenant (Sarah) with Abraham produced a human seed, Christ. Gal 3:16 Abraham’s seed was promised to inherit the earth or “land”. Gen.28:13,14
Christ received spiritual life with his resurrection Rom 10:7,9
He is the first to fulfill Ps 37:11
He is heir of all things Heb 1:2
Everything is subject under him 1 Cor 15:28
All things were created through him and for him Col 1:16
Unity will come to all things in heaven and on earth Eph 1:10
He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth Matt 28:18
God has fulfilled his promise to natural Israel –
We’re telling you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.’ 34 God[ raised him from the dead, never to experience decay, as he said, ‘I’ll give you the holy promises made to David.’ Acts 13:32-34
Acts 13:46,47 - Then Paul and Barnabas boldly declared, “We had to speak God’s word to you first, but since you reject it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we are now going to turn to the gentiles. 47 For that is what the Lord ordered us to do: ‘I have made you a light to the gentiles to be the means of salvation to the very ends of the earth.’”
Christ, as the life-giving spirit and the first to inherit the earth, sacrificed his life in order for others to share in that inheritance – as “co-heirs”. 1 Cor 15:45,46; Rom.8:2,17; 6:5 He becomes a life-giving Father, as well as their husbandly owner. Isa 9:6; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:9 What are they inheriting, but the earth, as Christ did. As they combine efforts within, and as, God’s Temple, life to all mankind and creation is restored on the earth, as has been God’s plan since Adam’s fall. Ps 45:16, Rev 20:6; Acts 15:14-18
Are these chosen brothers of Christ who become his Bride aloof as the Watchtower portrays them? How can it be when they also, as Christ did, sacrifice their life to produce a seed through the New Covenant? Rev.6:9; 14:1; 1Pet.2:5 These are the faithful, proven, refined ones of anointed priests that I am speaking of, not those who teach lies to the flock. Prov 14:25; Jer 5:31 Once the New Covenant has reached its fulfillment, then the ultimate unity between heaven and earth is obtained.
As Holy Jerusalem, the restored tent comes “down out of heaven” bringing eternal life to all God’s children and creation. Rev.21:2-5; 22:2,17; Rom 8:19
We can’t lose sight of the earthly hope, even though the Watchtower has tainted its life-sustaining significance. This is the creation that Christ took joy in seeing it chrysalis to perfection; and as when Adam first walked the earth, and Christ and his Father provided all creation with blessings and nourishment at that time, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, is the instrument needed to achieve the renewal of eternal life to the earth. Prov 8; Ps 66:1; Rev 22:2
Isa 45:18 - For this is what the Lord says, the one who created the sky— he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited— “I am the Lord, I have no peer.
Matt 6:10 - may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
love,
peely
Comment by qspf on 2015-04-20 16:01:30
I have become fairly certain that no one is going to heaven, and I believe this is actually a good thing.
I realize the notion that no one is going to heaven is one that is startling and controversial to many Christians, especially because it infringes on the cherished hopes and dreams of many of them. It would take a lengthy discourse to make a convincing case of it, but I would like to address some of the issues that suggest, to me at least, that this may be a real possibility.
Consider: "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." John 14;2-3
We must understand that Jesus does not need to be physically present to be with us.
For example, in Matt. 28:20, Jesus says, "Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." Yet, Christians were alive in the first century (and beyond) while Jesus had been resurrected to heaven. How could he be "with" them - and NOT with them - at the same time? He was present in a spiritual sense, guiding their activities as part of the new Christian congregation. He provided gifts in the spirit, to enable the apostles to perform powerful works, healings and some resurrections. Those works were performed by men of flesh and blood on earth. These were superhuman events that could only be possible if Jesus was WITH them. The apostles did not need to be converted into angelic-like spirit creatures to perform these works.
Nowhere in Jesus' statement does he say what those "rooms" are, or where they are. He simply says they exist.
Consider: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23;43
As many are aware, the original Greek language had no punctuation, and so the comma that appears in this verse is placed by translators, based on their understanding of the context. However, translators are affected by biases, as is everyone else. Translators that strongly believe that people go to heaven when they die tend to put the comma BEFORE the word "today" whereas those who view things differently put the comma AFTER "today" (that is, to indicate that Jesus was merely discussing when he was doing the telling).
A good case can be made for putting the comma after "today". First, the man spoken to by Jesus was a criminal, who even admitted he deserved to die. Why would Jesus grant a reward of eternal life in heaven to a man who evidently didn't do a single good thing in his entire life, other than be polite to Jesus as they both were about to die? Why would Jesus make such a promise to this particular man, when he didn't even make such a promise (in so many words) to his own apostles? He never told THEM they would be with him in paradise. It's true he told them other things, but not that. Bear in mind that "Even those impaled together with him were reproaching him." (Mark 15:32) Evidently, it was only later that day that the one evildoer had a change of heart. So, he had not been polite to Jesus for the entire time they were being executed, much less for the course of his life prior to this. That is hardly a very impressive "record" that he should be rewarded with everlasting life. The man clearly did not deserve it.
Second, if this man was going to be in paradise "today" - that is, the very day he and Jesus died, it contradicts the rest of the scriptures which indicate Jesus would be in the grave for parts of three days. If we take this verse literally, with the comma placed before "today" as many have done, this evildoer would end up in paradise even before Jesus did. Why would an evil man make it to paradise before the righteous Son of God would? It doesn't make sense.
Third, Jesus never said the evildoer was going to heaven. He said that man was would be in paradise - not the same thing.
Finally, the evildoer did not ask to go to heaven, but simply asked to be remembered. Jesus' reply must be understood as a confirmation he would in fact be remembered, but at a later time.
Consider Joseph Rutherford's actions in declaring that around 1935 no more persons would be anointed and that there would be a great crowd of other sheep with an earthly hope.
There is some truth to what many have observed about this, wherein the number of (then) "Bible Students" was reaching and then exceeding 144,000. They had to come up with some explanation. However, since people had been Christians throughout history, the time when this 144,000 would have been filled up (assuming that taking such a number literally is valid in the first place), would have been long, long before the 20th century. It must be pointed out though that, during this modern time period, a number of Bible Students expressed the view that they did not feel as though they had a heavenly calling (at least, that is what the Watchtower publications have claimed). That was another factor that had to be taken into account.
It is certainly possible that the Watchtower has misstated and misrepresented its history in this matter.
However, the issue as to whether or not there is a "heavenly hope" has nothing to do with any possible errors in Watchtower teaching. It has to do with doing an open-minded examination of all biblical references to "heaven". If we do this, we find the following:
1. In the OT, heaven is never seen or depicted as a place for people. It is actually a generic term with several meanings: (a) the dwelling place of God; (b) the place where rain and weather conditions come from; (c) the place where birds fly; (d) a figurative place associated with humans who are in an "exalted" condition, such as a human king whose power and grandeur are 'lifted up to the heavens'; (e) occasionally used as "between earth and heaven" in reference to angels, and appears to mean a materialized angel flying or floating suspended in mid-air.
2. In the NT, Jesus frequently talks about the "kingdom of heaven", but in each instance, it is equivalent to the "kingdom of God" - and often is, in parallel accounts amongst the Gospels. From (1) above, we have established that heaven is the dwelling place of God, and the idea of a "kingdom of heaven" does not change that. However, Jesus NEVER utters a plain, simple statement like this: 'Those having the blessing of my Father will be resurrected to heaven when they die.' Now, Jesus was very well known for being a great teacher. If this actually were the facts of the matter, WHY didn't he ever teach this? That would really be a glaring omission, would it not? Is it not rather peculiar that if this really were the case, there's not a single statement in plain English (or plain Greek for that matter) that says so?
It is true that those who Jesus brought into a "covenant" with him were given a promise of ruling "with" him, but notice what Rev. 5:10 has Jesus saying in most translations: "You made them to be a kingdom of priests for our God, and they will rule on the earth." (A very few translations like NWT say, "rule over the earth", but that is a mis-translation of the Greek. Here, "over" simply means "having authority over" and does not signify a physical location. These kings either rule physically on the earth, or have authority over the earth, but neither understanding would place them in heaven.)
Finally, 1 Thess. 4:17 speaks about being "caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord". But then 2 Cor. 12:2-3 speaks of Paul as "caught away as such to the third heaven" and "caught away into paradise". But there, Paul is clearly describing a VISION he had. Whatever we understand about heaven or paradise has to be take into account that this is explicitly described as a vision and revelation of God.
The verse that seems most like it implies people are going to heaven is 1 Thess. 4:17: "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."
However, as noted previous, in Matt. 28:20 Jesus promises he will be "with" his followers, even when those followers are on the earth. So, it is not necessary for people to go to heaven to be with him. We must accept the possibility that to " be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air" could be something that is strictly a figurative or spiritual thing, not a literal one.
Let us, again, not lose sight of what the verse actually says. Does the word "heaven" appear even once here? No. It talks about "clouds" and "air". Not heaven. To make it appear to say 'heaven", we would have to assume that "clouds" and "air" symbolically represent heaven. But where is the scriptural support for that? Where is the proof? Where are the words in the immediate context that say so? If they are present, please point them out because otherwise I am missing something.
Consider 2 Corr. 12:1-2: "I have to boast. It is not beneficial; but I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of [the] Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows, was caught away as such to the third heaven."
Clearly, from this passage, it is possible for a man to be caught away to heaven as part of a supernatural vision or revelations of the Lord. I believe that is what the scriptures mean in all cases.
How can this be? Aren't we told that people are going to be transformed and changed in the twinkling of an eye? Yes. But, does that transformation necessarily require those being transformed are changed into non-physical spirit beings? Let's consider this verse in 1 Corr. 15:50-57:
However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell you a sacred secret. We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is swallowed up forever." "Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?" The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
It is true that we are told, "flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom", but those words were spoken to individual persons on earth who existed in the flesh, who were controlled and influenced by the sin and imperfection they inherited from Adam. That much is certain, as seen by what immediately follows: "neither does corruption inherit incorruption". Human life as we presently know it is not "corruptible" MERELY because a human body can be destroyed, for example, as in a fire. It is "corruptible" in the Bible sense of the word because it is subject to sin, and thus death. That is why we are told, "The sting producing death is sin".
Jesus was a man of flesh on the earth, and yet we are told his flesh did not see corruption. (Acts 2:31) While on earth, Jesus was incorruptible - not because he was a spirit person 'pretending' to be a man - but because his entire life course was free from sin. He was always loyal and obedient to his Father, even when tempted or pressured into doing otherwise. Neither his friends nor his enemies could make him turn aside from doing what was right. He was truly incorruptible.
The fact is that no power in heaven or earth could make him sin, and that is what made him incorruptible. Some have tried to associate the idea that Jesus's flesh did not see corruption with the idea that the physical remains of his dead body were somehow miraculously disposed of, and that the "corruption" being referred to was thus a matter of the remains of his dead body not "corrupting" by rotting away and decomposing. While that also is certainly possible (perhaps an action taken by God out of respect for the dignity of the person of Jesus), it is not the most important aspect of Jesus being free of corruption. What matters most is Jesus' lack of sin.
I believe that is what 1 Cor. 15 is talking about. Those being resurrected from the dead, as described there, are persons that are raised up as perfect, sinless, righteous human beings of flesh and blood, having the same kind of perfection of mind, body and spirit as Jesus did when he was on earth.
If that understanding is correct, it would imply that some (or even perhaps all) persons being resurrected to earth would not have to wait 1,000 years to gain physical perfection, but would be granted this right away. It is true that the Watchtower repeatedly has taught that those of the earthly resurrection would gain physical perfection gradually. However, WHERE in the scriptures is the word, or idea, of gradual perfection taught, or even implied? No where that I could see.
Finally, we have the long passage at 1 Cor. 15:20-28, the main point of which shows that eventually, Christ will turn over his kingship back to his Father. Why is this important? Well, consider that the theme of the Bible is that eventually, mankind (yes, humans on the earth) will become reconciled to God, and the earth will become a paradise again, populated by perfect, sinless, righteous persons. Thus, there will be no more need for "priests" as there was in the nation of Israel.
So, if Jesus turns over his kingship, and he is not needed as a priest any more, what of those ones that supposedly gave up their human form to live in the heavens with Jesus to be kings and priests as angel-like spirit creatures? Rev. 20:4 says that "They came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years."
If this is literal, are we to suppose that these people gave up their human form, their families, their friends, and everything they knew to be transformed into some non-corporeal form, in order to hold an admittedly important position - but one that amounts to a temporary job? What do they do AFTER the thousand years when they are out of a job and unemployed, no longer needed either as kings or as priests? Do they just sit around on clouds playing harps all day, because their services are no longer required?
I contend that it would be cruel of God to do this to people, and contrary to his purposes for mankind. Consider: "The heavens are the LORD's heavens, but the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalms 115:16) And, "After that God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good." (Gen. 1:31)
If the earth, and human beings of flesh and blood were "very good", why would God discard his creation, and take humans into heaven, as if living on the earth was no longer "very good" and in fact wasn't even 'good enough'? Would he not be admitting defeat? Wouldn't his statement in Genesis now seem like a lie?
I contend that it is not necessary to be transformed into a spirit being to be "with" Christ and his Father. It was not necessary for Moses. Recall in Numbers 12 when Miriam and Aaron were treating Moses with disrespect, and God rebuked them. How did he describe his relationship with Moses?
Then Jehovah suddenly said to Moses and Aaron and Miriam: “Go out, the three of YOU, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them went out. After that Jehovah came down in the pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam. At this both of them went out. And he went on to say: “Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of YOURS for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he beholds. Why, then, did YOU not fear to speak against my servant, against Moses?”
The Hebrew that corresponds to "speak to him" can be translated as "speak with him" and the majority of non-NWT translations do just that.
Thus, God tells us that he spoke "with" Moses, doing so "face to face". And yet, Moses resided on the earth. It is even said that Moses saw the "form" or 'face' of God. How is this possible? No doubt what Moses saw and heard was an angel representing God and speaking on his behalf, rather than literally God himself, but the effect was the same.
From this, it is clear that Moses was "with" God, and Moses effectively acted like a ruler over his people (with Aaron acting as priest), similar to what the "kings and priests" do that Jesus speaks of. And elsewhere Moses is said to have acted as a god with respect to Pharaoh. Yet, Moses was a human of flesh and blood on the earth. This tells us that residing in heaven is not a prerequisite for ruling on the earth.
Would not a ruler wish to be close to those he ruled over, so as to be in close contact with them, to be intimately aware of their concerns and needs?
If being in a non-corporeal, spirit body was something that facilitated a good working relationship with humans, why is it that when God sent angels with messages for mankind, they ALWAYS assumed physical form, and materialized as human beings?
What makes more sense in terms of being a ruler over mankind? To be some invisible, cloud-like, nebulous thing, or to be a real person dealing with other real persons of flesh and blood? Which would YOU like to have as a ruler?
Perhaps the foregoing is not enough to convince everyone, but I contend that there is more than sufficient evidence to seriously question the idea and doctrine that people are going to heaven. The Bible provides extremely little evidence to support it, and logic tells us that it is unnecessary and not in mankind's best interests.
As an exercise, I would invite all readers to point out any and every verse in the Bible that supposedly supports the doctrine of persons being resurrected to heaven, and in each instance, you will see that a plausible explanation exists that the passage in question can be understood in terms of an earthly-only resurrection.
Comment invited.Reply by Skye on 2015-04-21 07:17:59
I too, as many others do, believe that Christ's brothers are going to rule in the Kingdom of God on earth. I understand from your interesting comments that you think that Jesus will rule from heaven - have you considered the possibility that Jesus, as King of that Kingdom will also rule on the earth with his brothers?
Reply by Nightingale on 2015-04-21 13:10:38
I agree with this. Qspf, a great post, I especially like the point 2 that you brought up there. It is a mystery to me why so many believe that some people will go to heaven. Where does Jesus or Paul or anybody say such a thing? Nowhere you can find a statement like "you will be in heaven with me" or "we will all be with heaven with Christ" etc. It is just as assumption based on a few verses like the mentioned John 14.
But have you considered that 1 Thessalonians is about the time when Jesus comes back to Earth and the Christians will meet him in the air and escort him back here?
I think 1Co 15 is making a contrast between mortal and immortal and uses other terms like corruptible/incorruptible, weakness/power to describe that distinction. So if this correct, Jesus was corruptible because he could die - but afterwards he can't die no more like Paul wrote. This same pattern applies with those who will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection - they can't die anymore - and to those faithful who happen to be alive when Jesus returns and when they will be changed from mortal to immortal. Jesus and all these will then rule the Earth.Reply by qspf on 2015-04-23 11:25:57
I don't believe Jesus could be called corruptible simply because he could die. The reason he could die is because he was a real human being of flesh and blood. He was a perfect man, but having human perfection does not mean being indestructible.
The integrity of Jesus was an open question at the beginning of his life. As Ecclesiastes puts it, death is "better" than life, the end "better" than the beginning, because only then will we know if the outcome of a person's life is good or bad.
We know NOW that Jesus was incorruptible because he was faithful and obedient unto death. Before that happened, the possibility existed that Jesus could fail. We know his Father had faith, and good reason, for believing Jesus WOULD'T fail, but the truth is, that fact had to be proven. As strange as it sounds, we couldn't just take God's word for it. Somebody, ANYBODY, had to prove they'd be loyal to the death, no matter what. Until Jesus came along, no one ever succeeded in doing that.
So, in that sense, Jesus was corruptible because the possibility existed that he might commit a sin, thus corrupting his initially perfect start in his human life.
As for the question of immortality, the word in 1 Corinthians 15:53 translated as immortality literally means "without death" or "deathlessness". If we base our understanding on the Greek text alone, we know for certain that those attaining to immortality WILL NOT DIE. However, claiming that they CANNOT DIE is a totally different matter.
Consider the angels. As spirit creatures in the heavens, how could they possibly die? There is absolutely nothing in scripture suggesting that an angel could die. Indeed, because of Jesus coming to earth, dying and then being raised to the heavens, he not only tasted death for every man - he also tasted it for every angel. As far as we know, no angel has ever died, much less have been destroyed by God. So, Jesus could pass along to the angels something he learned on earth (besides learning obedience). He could explain to them what it means to die. No angel could ever before comprehend this all-too-human event without Jesus to pass along his experiences. Could that knowledge act as a deterrent to angels "on the fence" considering a rebellion against God? We cannot say, but the possibility certainly exists.
But in time, rebellious angels will die because of being destroyed by God. So, even if angels are "technically" immortal - because they would never die on their own without a powerful outside intervention - they are not indestructible.
I believe the notion that a living creature being immortal implies they are indestructible is unreasonable. If that were the case, it would "tie God's hands" in the event that in some far, future day, a creature deemed "immortal" would choose to rebel. What would God do then? Can we imagine Him saying, "Oh well, even though I declared you immortal one million years ago, you have the audacity to rebel against me NOW? I really hate it when that happens, but I can't go back on my word, so go for it - you have my permission to rebel against me for all eternity, because you are immortal and even *I* can't bring about your death"?
Recall that Adam and Eve were barred from partaking of the tree of life. Evidently, anyone who was allowed to do this would be receiving a token of divine approval of everlasting life. If Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of that tree, even though they were condemned to die, it would create a legal paradox, putting God in an untenable position. That is something He could not allow to take place. Likewise, the nation of Israel was prohibited from creating a formulation that matching the sacred anointing oil, and violation of this rule was subject to the death penalty. Why? Misuse of "counterfeit" anointing oil could result in similar legal paradoxes, and God could not allow that to happen. If He did, the results would be chaos.
Finally, and to sort of reiterate what I mentioned earlier, there is no scripture that explicitly says that any of God's creation CANNOT die, only that they won't. Nowhere in the original text is that ever stated.
Reply by qspf on 2015-04-23 10:49:02
Yes, I believe Jesus will return to the earth, in bodily form, at some point. The Watchtower dislikes this idea, and disapproves of other Christian religions that espouse such ideas. However, we must realize that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared to a number of persons in the vicinity of Jerusalem, and was recognized as a man. How can this be, since we are told he "died once for all time"? If he was resurrected as a man, how could he go to heaven? The literal heaven (outer space?) is deadly to human life; a person in space would die in a matter of seconds. That cannot be what happened. Somehow, his visible appearances must be understood in a way that did not invalidate his death as a ransom sacrifice.
What makes the most sense is the human life Jesus enjoyed as a descendant of Abraham and David was ended when he died. When he appeared to men after his resurrection, he did so using a "temporary" body materialized for the occasion. That is, to some people he appeared as an ordinary, unrecognized man, but to Thomas he looked like "Jesus" and even sported hands wounded by nail holes. Why didn't the first people to see the resurrected Jesus see those holes? Wouldn't they "stick out like a sore thumb" so to speak? But they didn't. That is because it wasn't the same body, and the "first" body didn't have any wounds.
It is reasonable to conclude that these temporary materialized bodies "came and went" as the need arose, and various "versions" of these bodies were not necessarily identical in appearance. In adopting such temporary bodies, Jesus would be in a form remarkably like how Melchizedek is described in Hebrews 7:3: "In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." These materialized bodies would appear normal, but they would be what we might describe in modern terms almost as "clones" or something - living things but having no natural parents, and certainly no descendants.
I suspect something similar will occur with Jesus.
We must also consider that the most meaningful definition of the word "Parousia" is the arrival or official visit of a king or ruler. In ancient history, Parousia was used to describe the initial visit of a new ruler to his new subjects at the beginning of his reign. Nothing in the word Parousia suggests Jesus (or any other ruler) would "overstay their visit" by arriving and then never leaving.
Combine all the above and what do we get? Perhaps this:
When Jesus returns, he will appear on earth, doing so in a materialized body. Since his Parousia is properly understood as a "visit" and not a permanent residence, Jesus will be "with" his anointed (earthly, human, flesh and blood) co-rulers for 1,000 years, helping them to get the earth back in order. At some point, either before or when the 1,000 year period is over, Jesus will return to the heavens, abandoning his temporary, materialized body, and presumably would never appear visibly again.
When the 1,000 reign finally ends, humans serving as earthly kings will give up this role. They, and all other humans, will be in a state of perfection, needing neither earthly kings, heavenly kings or mediators of any sort, but would have a direct relationship with God as his children, the same as Jesus had on earth and as Adam and Eve had at first. Those persons who had had the privilege of being human kings for 1,000 years would no longer exercise kingly authority over others, but would be ordinary humans of equal standing with all other human children of God.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-23 11:11:53
What you say about Jesus materializing a body for each occasion to suit the circumstances makes a lot of sense and is consistent with the scriptural record. I hadn't thought of the application of Melchizedek's lack of genealogy to this, but it certainly fits nicely.
Thank you for adding these thoughts.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-23 14:33:51
qspf, I've been thinking about the immortality thing - we gather from Luke 20:36 that the angels are immortal. But everything said in the Bible about angels does not refer to good and bad angels at the same time, because we know that Satan and demons will be destroyed eventually. With regard to the elect becoming immortal, I understood that they couldn't die in the sense that no one could kill them, or by any other means. And so if they remained faithful, as we understand they will, then they will continue to be immortal. But if circumstances did change, and we have no scriptural reason to believe they will, then just as with the angels that could be a different matter. Perhaps I'm going a bit too far here, but what I'm trying to say is that God has everything in hand, and so we can be confident that whatever the scriptures say will be fulfilled.
Comment by on 2015-04-24 13:58:30
Hi qspf, you said:
"Yes, I believe Jesus will return to the earth, in bodily form, at some point. The Watchtower dislikes this idea, and disapproves of other Christian religions that espouse such ideas. However, we must realize that after Jesus’ resurrection, he appeared to a number of persons in the vicinity of Jerusalem, and was recognized as a man"
We certainly are on the same page here.
Have you considered that we are now within the thousand year reign of Christ?
Note Matt.25:31,32,46:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory (started in first Century -John1:14; Matt.26:64; Luke21:27; Heb.12:1; Acts7:55,56), and all the angels with him (Chosen ones who prove faithful -Matt.16:27; 1Thess.3:13; 2Thess.1:10,12; John17:10;Jude1:14; Rev.17:14; 19:14,8; 14:1; Eph.2:6; Rev.12:5), he will sit on his glorious throne (Ps.110:1,2; Eph.3:10; Ps.110:1;John16:33; 1Cor.15:25; 1John3:8; Rev.3:21; Matt.12:28; John12:31; 16:11; 1Cor.15:26; Heb.2:14; Col.1:13) (again, began in the first century).
All the nations will be gathered before him (Heb.4:13), and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats (Heb.4:1,2; Rev.20:12; John3:17,18,19,20,21).
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (thank you pearl doxsey http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/search?q=Thousand+years)
With thoughts on earth vs. heavenly existence, we know that the 144,000 is Christ’s Bride. Those who make up this completed Bride at the fulfillment of the New Covenant are presented then as the Holy City, New Jerusalem – the Temple of God. Rev 21:9,10,2; 22:17. In order for the Bride to “come down out of heaven”, these kings and priests must attain a spiritual being, as the firstborn, and as a result of the New Covenant promise.
2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(creation i.e. thing created) Eph 2:6, 19-22 Christ was the first of this new creation - born of flesh and born again as spirit. 1 Cor 15:44; Col 2:9 Anointed proven faithful follow the pattern of these two natural births.
In John 1:51 we see that angels are ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. Gen 28:12 Who are these angels? Angel here is defined as a messenger, an envoy. Heb 2:16. Another word for envoy is ambassador and who are Christ’s ambassadors but his chosen priests and kings; thus they are those ascending and descending upon the Son of Man, eternally, during God’s Kingdom. This could only be possible for Christ's brothers as the new creation; both fleshly as well as spiritually.
2 Cor 5:20 - Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
The New Covenant is a provision for spirit life to the 144,000, its seed, to become and to serve in the Temple Heb 8:5; 1 Cor 3:16.
During this Thousand Years, ALL anointed who have lived on the earth since Christ are judged on their faithfulness. Matt.25:23; Luke16:10; 2Tim.2:12;Luke10:19; Rev.3:21;2:26,27; 5:10; 20:6; 1:5; 17:14
The New Jerusalem, God’s Kingdom, also produces a seed which is all mankind, with the Temple as the source of living waters of life eternally. Heb 12:28; Ezek 37:25; Rev 3:12
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.'” Luke 1:29
The Thousand Year doctrine by the WT is another entrenched idea we must scrape away and begin again from scratch. Christ has been subduing his enemies through the testimony of his faithful kings and priests since the first century. During our unique time, a time of unprecedented tribulation, a remnant of these fulfill Revelation’s battle to the end. Death will ultimately be abolished. Rev 12:17; 12:7,11. This battle is spiritual, not to be seen within Satan’s world. Eph 6:12
As far as what heaven actually is; well, it certainly isn't the earth we live on but obviously a spiritual state of being. How can we look at such a thing as a definitive place? We are defined by our familiar parameters; while the Father with his seven eyes, seven spirits, can "walk" among us as he chooses and see all. Lev 26:12; Deut 23:14; 2 Chron 16:9; Prov 16:3; Zech 3:9; 4:10; Rev 5:6
If this spirit of perfection is represented by Christ, then it will also be within the Temple, the Holy City, which inhabits the 144,000, the new creation. Col 2:9; 22:3; 1Cor.3:16
love,
peely
hope I have those scriptures right.Reply by qspf on 2015-04-24 16:56:15
Hello peely,
I must say I had no idea anyone would take my words so seriously, much less go to such efforts to respond in so well-considered a manner. Allow me to commend you. Some of the things you discuss touch on an understanding of Revelation. I cannot say that I really understand it. We only have to look at the Watchtower's record in attempting to interpret it, as well as attempts by others throughout the ages, to know how difficult and fraught with uncertainty making the attempt can be.
I believe a great harm is done when religious people are unwilling to admit they do not know and that they could be wrong about a matter. The Watchtower has made that error many times over, and I would hope not to repeat it. So before anything that follows, I will say I don't know everything, and I could be wrong.
Allow me to respond as best I can. Your post is very lengthy and detailed, and I would not be able to exhaustively address everything.
You start with, "Have you considered that we are now within the thousand year reign of Christ?" I can't say that I ever looked at it that way.
In 33 AD, Jesus said, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." Many people have made much of this statement. Perhaps Jesus meant that he received, at that time, all the authority he was ever going to get. It is not necessary to conclude that "all" in Matthew 28:18 must be taken in an absolute sense, as if Jesus had the same absolute authority that his Father had - or, like Trinitarians believe, that Jesus was God and thus of course had absolutely "all" authority over everything in the entire universe. It is not even necessary that Jesus had, in 33 AD, all the authority he was ever going to get. Perhaps he had "all" the authority he needed AT THAT TIME to accomplish the things he needed to do AT THAT TIME.
We can think of Jesus having all authority in the same way that Adam was perfect. Human perfection did not mean that Adam could fly like a bird. Still, Adam was perfect, so we could say he had "all" the perfection he needed. Perhaps that is how Jesus should be considered. Biblical perfection just means completeness, and so does the word "all".
I won't say dogmatically that this is the case here, only that it's a possibility.
With that in mind, I don't think "the" thousand year reign began in 33 AD or has even started yet. Why? What is Jesus doing, or what has he done, that could be perceived as evidence that his "reign" began? Many other commentators have shown why 1914 was not when Jesus was enthroned. No matter what time we might postulate as the date when he supposedly started ruling, where is the evidence of it? When Jesus was on earth, he was no "wallflower"! Instead, everywhere he went, he amazed people with his great wisdom, kindness and powerful works. Yet, now that he is supposedly ruling, where is that dynamic, powerful personality (enhanced even further by his authority to rule) in evidence? No where.
That is my main problem. Jesus was not that kind of person, while on earth, to sit back and do nothing. Yet that is what, by any measure, he seems to have done all these centuries: nothing.
A person would be reasonably within their rights to ask, "well, Jesus, if you are ruling, what have you done lately?" I have difficulty believing that evidence of his rule would be so obscure and subtle that it would require decades or centuries of exhaustive Bible research merely to detect the slightest glimmers of evidence. The scriptures say that every eye (everyone on earth) would realize what was happening. It would be so obvious it would be fall-out-of-bed simple to recognize it. We cannot say that at present.
Your quotation from Pearl Doxsey says, "... and all the angels with him (Chosen ones who prove faithful ...". I don't believe the "chosen ones" are angels. I believe the reference is to actual angels, not to anointed ones that have been made into spirit creatures.
As for the bride coming down out of heaven, Revelation doesn't quite say that. It says (21:9-11) "And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God." John was shown the CITY coming down, not the BRIDE coming down. It is possible to infer, as you have, that the bride and the city are the same thing, but that is a matter of interpretation.
Since I view the 144,000 class that kings/priests who are, and always will be, humans of flesh and blood on the earth, my take on this is that the "holy city" is an "arrangement" for governing the earth. In that sense, it might be likened to the U.S. Constitution or other body of laws, which still require legislators to administrate.
Consider 1 Corinthians 3:16-17: "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are." I believe the great crowd worships "in" this temple in the sense that the 144,000 and the great crowd are both on earth, at the same time. The great crowd is "in" the temple because they are closely associated - yes, physically working side by side - with the kings/priests of the 144,000 who make up that temple. (That is how we can reconcile the idea that there is no heavenly resurrection with the fact that the scriptures show the great crowd worshiping in the "naos", that is, the same "temple" where the little flock are. They are in the same place: on earth.)
Regarding persons becoming a "new creation", I believe that members of the king/priest class who have passed away will be resurrected with human bodies that are perfect in mind, body and spirit, identical to the way Jesus existed as a man. They will not need 1,000 years or any other amount of time to become perfect. They will be raised up BETTER than they were before, not mere the same, facing a long climb up to physical perfection. And, those few individuals of the ruling class that have not yet died will instantly be made physically perfect - "changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" as 1 Corinthians puts it. Beforehand, no one born imperfect and sinful had ever been made physically perfect; it has never been done. When it DOES happen, that will indeed be a new creation.
In John 1:51, when Jesus told his followers, "you will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man", we must understand that having "heaven opened up" can mean that they would receive a divine revelation or understanding. Consider the similar account when Jesus was baptized and heaven was opened up for HIM. The Watchtower has commented that this meant that Jesus was made to realize who and what he was, and remembered his former life in heaven, perhaps a thought he did not have as a child growing up to be a man of flesh. I happen to agree with that explanation. John 17:5 alludes to this: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Somehow Jesus as a man had to acquire the knowledge of what he was before, and when he was baptized, that's most likely when he got it.
My reading of Heb 8:5 and 1 Cor 3:16 is somewhat different than yours. The sacred service in the earthly Jewish temples was, indeed, a shadow of heavenly things. But which things? 1 Corinthians 3:16 tells us, "Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you?" Consider that this statement is made in the present tense, in the first century. Those Christians were ALREADY God's temple - even though they were merely "declared" righteous, and were not literally righteous (not yet, anyway).
I contend it is the ARRANGEMENT that is heavenly, but the participants are not; they are real humans of flesh and blood.
I believe that, among the 'entrenched ideas that must be scraped away' is the concept that we are in a "unique time, a time of unprecedented tribulation". If you have not done so, I urge you to obtain the book by Carl Olaf Jonnson, "The Sign of the Last Days - When?" One of the main points of this book is that, though the 20th century certainly had its problems, and not to minimize them, other time periods were also bad. He points out how life in the 14th century was in fact extremely difficult, and some times through history were so bad that there was a real risk that human life could have been wiped off the earth. I give this book my highest recommendation. You owe it to yourself to read this.
We find in the Bible repeated references to the tent of God coming down and residing with mankind, not the other way around. If all mankind, including those who will rule as kings for 1,000 years, are actual humans of flesh and blood, then everything makes sense.
The Bible tells us that God created the earth for man, and man for the earth. It says he has given the earth to the sons of man, and that when he did this, it was very good. In a book that never exaggerates or engages in "hype", saying the earth is "very good" is extremely high praise coming from God. Everything that humans want and need is here, on earth. Earth's human subjects need human rulers, so that the rulers and those ruled can see and speak to each other, encourage each other, and collaboratively work together.
What is truly in the best interests of all of mankind? It is to be here, in human perfection, working together to make the earth a place that brings honor to God.
If God wanted humans to have a destiny that involved being transformed into non-corporeal, nebulous spirit creatures, why bother making the earth in the first place? He could have just made us as angels. But, wait - He did that already. That is, He already made angels. Yet, the very fact that he also made humans tells us an extremely important fact, which is that being a spirit person might not necessarily be enough for us to enjoy life. If it were, if there was nothing better than to be a spirit person, that would be the only kind of life that God would have made. Yet, here we are. Why?
Consider Ecclesiastes 3:10-11: "I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of mankind in which to be occupied. 11 Everything he has made pretty in its time." Human life, and the earth God placed it on, were not only "very good" but were "pretty". There is nothing wrong, and nothing inferior, about being a perfect creation of flesh and blood. The human brain has been called the most complex piece of engineering in the universe. Being a physical person s not a "runner-up prize" or "consolation prize" to the "losers" who lost out on life in heaven! We are very good! Or, at least, we WILL be when our perfection is restored.
God is love, and he would not have created man as physical if being such was a state of inferiority. That goes for those who will have the temporary (lasting at most 1,000 years) job of acting as kings on the earth.
One other thing. Matthew 22:29-30 tells us, "In reply Jesus said to them: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven." Some have concluded that this means that those resurrected will be angels, or will be spirit persons "as angels" are. Watchtower has waffled on this question, and seemingly the position now is that they are not sure and we should not speculate.
Consider Romans 7:2-3: "For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s."
Thus, what do we know for certain? It is that, at death, the bonds of marriage are broken (in response to the challenge made to Jesus as noted above).
We must acknowledge that NO WHERE in the Bible is it ever stated or implied that angels could marry, or that they have any particular personal relationships with each other. They are always depicted as male, and as such, we would describe them as "unattached". Thus, angels never are depicted as having, or being bound by, a formalized, solemn relationship with another of their own kind.
I believe that is the answer Jesus was giving. NOT that people are resurrected to life as spirit persons, comparable in spirit nature to angels. But rather, they will be resurrected as humans of flesh and blood, but humans whose prior marital relationship has been (and would initially continue to be) severed by their deaths.
A resurrected person would not be automatically given (back) in marriage to the person they used to be married to (or ANY of them, if they were married more than once). Any marital arrangement they brought themselves into after being resurrected as humans of flesh and blood would have to be made at that time. It is certainly romantic to think two previously married persons, after being resurrected as humans, would choose to marry each other again. And, no doubt, many will. But, they are FREE to make that choice for themselves. This passage has NOTHING to do with being resurrected to life in heaven.
Comment by Nightingale on 2015-04-26 10:58:42
Hi qspf,
Do you think that there will be Christians and other faithful God's servants from pre-Christian times who are not kings/priests during the Millennium? If so, where is this another group in the Bible? Even the great crowd serves in the temple, doesn't that mean they are priests? This is the difficult thing for me, it seems strange that there would be maybe millions of kings/priests - are that many really needed - but it's also true that Bible doesn't seem to talk about those faithful who would not be kings/priests. Or does it?
And doesn't the little flock just refer to that little group of followers that Jesus had at that time rather than a separate group that would be kings?
Comment by qspf on 2015-04-27 00:25:14
Hello Nightingale,
As I like to preface any post (but don't always remember to do it) we must, each of us, be mindful that we do not know everything, and that we can be wrong. I am applying that counsel to myself at this moment, so that you understand how to properly view the opinion I am about to give you.
1. Do I believe there will be "Christians and other faithful God’s servants from pre-Christian times" - you mean, resurrected ones (right?) "who are not kings/priests during the Millennium"? Yes, that must be true.
Why? For the simple reason that everyone cannot be the king. For example, in the U.S. there are about 300 million people, but one president. It would be absolutely impossible for every one of those 300 million people to ALL be the president! How could the country be governed? How could anything ever get done? It's no different in the new system. EVERYBODY can't be a king! It would be crazy. It would be impossible to administrate, and would be utterly unnecessary anyway. I have a saying: If everything is the highest priority, then nothing is the highest priority. Likewise, if everyone was a king, then no one is a king, because they'd all have the same status. It makes no sense for vast numbers of people to all be kings.
We must understand that, in all likelihood, persons who might WANT this to be the answer - that the "great crowd" and/or faithful pre-Christian persons mentioned in the OT - in fact wouldn't be "left out" of the "reward" of being resurrected to heaven. However (as I have commented on at length elsewhere in this forum) I do not believe ANYONE is going to heaven - only Jesus went there, and the angels come and go, but no one else. Because of that, being resurrected to earthly life is not a "consolation prize" for the "runner ups", the "losers" or the "second class citizens". God made the earth for man, and man for the earth, and He declared them both "very good".
2. We must face the fact that Revelation, in presenting the number 144,000, is describing this as a symbolic number. How do we know? Better persons than me have explored this in depth, but here's the basics as I see it. The Watchtower claims that 144,000 is literal, because (a) it is contrasted with a crowd that no man was able to number, and (b) supposedly if 144,000 were symbolic, then how could any number in Revelation be literal, when "clearly" there are literal numbers. There are serious problems with the WT view.
(a) Some people have estimated the total number of people that have ever lived at about 100 billion. That seems like a lot, but there were long stretches in history were diseases like the Black Plague killed enormous numbers of people. So, there were a lot of people, but many didn't live very long. In any case, if all these people were resurrected, a number in the range of 100 billion is not so large that it is beyond man's ability to count it. The most likely reason that man is not "able" to number the great crowd is because God has not numbered it either. That is, He has not arbitrarily limited in advance the number of persons in the great crowd, or assigned any particular roles for them.
(b) In truth, almost every single number in Revelation IS symbolic, or is not provably literal. The only numbers certain to be literal are 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles. The 1,000 year reign MIGHT be literal, but we cannot prove it is. ALL OTHER NUMBERS in Revelation are symbolic.
As for the 144,000 itself, it is extremely unlikely it is literal. Why? It is supposed to consists of 12 tribes of 12,000 members each of the sons of Israel. However, much of the NT explains at length how Gentiles, persons not members of ANY tribe of Israel, have been adopted to be God's sons. So, the membership is not just from Israel. The counter argument then is, of course, it is "spiritual Israel". But then we have the list of tribes, and three of them are not even real tribes. There is the tribe of Levi in the list, but the Levites were separate and not considered a regular "tribe". Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, but in the list Joseph is called a tribe (he was not) but Ephraim was not but should have been. I simply cannot see any way this information can be considered as literal. If 144,000 is literal, we would be compelled to say that EVERYTHING THE 144,000 IS COMPOSED OF IS LITERAL AS WELL. Yet, Watchtower does not do this. Instead, THEY say that 144,000 is literal BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IS SYMBOLIC. They are not literal tribes and the members are not literally all Jews. It makes no sense.
To me, we should always be referring to this as "the 144,000 class" of persons destined to rule as kings on the earth.
BUT, you may ask, if 144,000 is symbolic, what's it symbolic OF - and what is it's actual number? The answer is just what you might imagine: The 144,000 are symbolic of the number of persons who eventually serve as kings and priests. And how many is THAT? WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY.
You said, "it seems strange that there would be maybe millions of kings/priests - are that many really needed"? I think it's strange too. And I DON'T think that millions are needed. However, as I just stated, we do not know what the symbolic number 144,000 actually stands for. We will not know until the resurrection occurs how many kings the earth will have. All we DO know is that God knows the perfect number we will need to successfully administrate the earth's affairs. We need not obsess over the number. Further, since the king/priests have this role only for 1,000 years, at the end of which time they will be ordinary persons who will (continue to) live on the earth, in the end neither group will have a higher position of authority over the other. We will ALL be righteous, sinless, perfect human children of God, united with Him and united with each other.
3. You ask, "If so, where is this another group in the Bible?" Your question is a little ambiguous to me. Do you mean, where will they be, on earth (or elsewhere)? If so, they will be on earth, working side by side with the kings and priests. If you mean, "where are they mentioned in the Bible", I am not sure they ARE mentioned as any distinctive group as opposed to the group that will rule as kings. In my view, the kings will be resurrected on earth, and will rule on earth, and the two groups will both be ordinary humans. Thus, there is no need to identify one group as being different or located in two different places, because that will not happen. Everyone will be on the earth, and they will all be together.
4. You ask, "Even the great crowd serves in the temple, doesn’t that mean they are priests?" Here is where it gets fun.
What IS the temple?
[from another post of mine]: Consider 1 Corinthians 3:16-17: "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are." I believe the great crowd worships "in" this temple in the sense that the 144,000 and the great crowd are both on earth, at the same time. The great crowd is "in" the temple because they are closely associated - yes, physically working side by side - with the kings/priests of the 144,000 who make up that temple. (That is how we can reconcile the idea that there is no heavenly resurrection with the fact that the scriptures show the great crowd worshiping in the "naos", that is, the same "temple" where the little flock are. They are in the same place: on earth.)
Thus, the great crowd serves "in" the temple, in the sense that the kings and priests ARE the temple - the temple is a group of PEOPLE, not a thing or a place. So the "temple PEOPLE" and the "great crowd" are simply two groups of people, where the great crowd exists and works side by side "within" the group of people who are the kings. They simply have different roles.
5. The little flock is mentioned only once, at Luke 12:32: "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom."
Since these ones are GIVEN the kingdom, and do not just "inherit" the kingdom, I believe this is a reference to the 144,000 class.
6. Finally, you ask, "And doesn’t the little flock just refer to that little group of followers that Jesus had at that time rather than a separate group that would be kings?" I believe you are basically right and don't realize it, but you may be confusing yourself (or trying to). AT THAT TIME (in the first century) when Jesus SAID these words, THAT little group of followers AT THAT TIME were the INITIAL part of the little flock. More members would be added later. (After all, Jesus had to start SOMEWHERE, right?)
And again, these are my opinions and I may be wrong, but I believe this is basically how things work.
That's my two cents worth.Reply by Nightingale on 2015-04-27 03:39:34
Thanks for your thoughts. It is my view also that no-one is going to heaven and that there is no such thing as "heavenly resurrection". So it's the Earth we are talking about whether the subject is the kings or the non-kings. And the 144.000 must be symbolic for the reasons you mentioned. One thing I would like to know is this though: what is the "Israel" that those "144.000" are sealed out from? I have pondered this on the DTT forum as well under the thread Revelation 7:1-4. (maybe we could continue this discussion there, would be more practical).
Another point which is difficult is that when is it that those righteous ones who are not going to be kings/priests will be resurrected? Doesn't the Bible say in Revelation 20 that all those in the first resurrection will sit on thrones and rule with Christ and the rest of the dead will not be resurrected after the 1000 years? I have posted about this on the forum under the topic "the timing of the resurrection".
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-27 12:26:17
OR. 1)144,000 = Jewish 2) Great crowd = Gentiles.
(It would not be likely that the Church would be divided into 12 tribes.)
If correct, this vision of the 144,000 and the Great crowd would show God's plan for Israel in spite of the persecution by antichrist and Satan during the GT after the three and a half years (into the 7 years) when the abomination of desolation is established in the Temple (literal temple build at the beginning of the 7 years, and which is to be destroyed, Matt 24.)
Matt 19:28 "You who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you shall also sit upon 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel." - The apostle judges and the 12 tribes in the earthly Kingdom.
We remember too, those in the first resurrection, the faithful of all ages, will be Kings and Priests with Christ. Rev 20:4-6.
2) Great crowd. Rev 7. So as well as the great company of Israelites (14,000) in the last days, there are ALSO many Gentiles of all nations, tribes and tongues (7:9) - in the time of the GT - coming out of v14. Also, I think, in the first resurrection, included will be the saints (the Church) as part of the great crowd.
During the time of the end the end, Jews and Gentiles will be united with Christ. And as prophecy relates in OT, the earthly Kingdom will rule from Jerusalem.
During the 1000 year reign who will the Kings and Priest rule over? According to Isaiah 24:6 there will be survivors of God's day of wrath (Rev 19). Also Isa 65:17 in the New Heavens and New Earth (new order of society) we see there will be mortals living on the earth v 20. Only the saints so far having immortality.Reply by Nightingale on 2015-04-27 13:56:44
Yes. But if there are millions of saints? Will they all be kings and priests? Are that many really needed?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-27 15:41:23
I guess we'll just have to wait to see how much hand-on, personal attention these ones will give to the billions of resurrected.
Reply by qspf on 2015-04-27 16:10:24
Nightingale, you asked "Yes. But if there are millions of saints? Will they all be kings and priests? Are that many really needed?"
The problem in this hypothetical question is, of course: Who SAID there were millions of saints? The only one using this word "millions" at the moment is you.
If a hypothetical situation, which cannot be proven, is actually true, is that situation a necessary one? That is, if there really are millions of saints, are they needed? Needed for what? Does being a "saint" also mean being a king? What do those kings DO, anyway?
Remember some of the passages in Genesis where it mentions dozens and dozens of "kings"? Perhaps the biblical notion of "king" is less grandiose that we might assume. (Compare this idea to the line from the movie Titanic: "I'M KING OF THE WORLD!" ) Just because someone were given the title of "king" doesn't necessarily mean they have an enormous amount of power. A "king" in biblical terms might correspond to what we would describe in modern terms as a "governor", a "county executive" or even a "mayor". If that were the case, how many mayors, county executives or "regional directors" would we need for the whole earth? Maybe a lot? We simply don't know.
Also, suppose a "saint" or "holy one" didn't WANT to be a king? Is God going to force them to be a king whether they want to be or not? Like, "I am going to make you an offer you (literally) cannot refuse" ? What if they only want to be an ordinary citizen?
Can you not see the problem here? There is no use to even ask such questions, since you cannot substantiate the initial premises of the argument at hand.
You seem determined to ask a question that cannot be answered. The only answer anyone can honestly give, without going beyond what is written and beyond any answers we can confidently reason upon, is "we don't know". Sometimes we need to let that be the answer and let it go.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-04-27 12:59:52
Looking at the foregoing, I think the one thing that we can say with absolute certainly is that we do not know who the 144,000 and the great crowd really are. We can say with certain that the two groups are depicted, but are they distinct from each other or the same group viewed from two viewpoints? The second comes out of the great tribulation, but we cannot even establish what that is with absolute certainty.
In short, we'll just have to wait to see the revelation of these prophecies in God's due time.
Comment by qspf on 2015-04-27 13:09:03
It does seem like the two groups have two different roles. Otherwise, why would Revelation use any language at all to make them seem to us like they are not the same? The problem is determining exactly in what WAY they are different.
I have often felt that the words of Revelation lack sufficient corroboration from the rest of the scriptures to reliably interpret it. If that were not the case, it would have been fully understood by now, but after 2,000 years, we seem almost as clueless as when John wrote them.
As Meliti says, we will have to wait and see how matters unfold. What other choice to we have? Every attempt to correctly interpret Revelation has failed. That should tell us something.
Comment by Skye on 2015-04-27 17:25:10
Nightingale, Yes, according to scripture it would appear that all the saints will be Kings and Priests - I haven't seen anything so far that would indicate otherwise. However, I thought your point about numbers was interesting, and I was thinking about what Jesus said to his true disciples, that in his Father's house there were many dwelling places and positions, and so it would be reasonable to conclude that not all positions would be equal (John 14:2) Other scriptures too would indicate this, Matt 11:11, Luke 19:11-27, etc. So different abilities, some more knowledge than others, after all they will be individuals, won't they? These are just my thoughts, but I don't think they contradict scripture. So even if there are a great number of Kings and Priests, they won't all be doing the same thing/assignments. Again though, God and Jesus Christ have all this worked out, and so I don't see it as a problem.
Since I've left off JW teachings, and focused my studies completely on God's inspired word, I have discovered how the Society have altered the scriptures for their members through their publications. When I first left the Organisation, like many others, when studying God's Word I had a tendency to "overthink" for a while - after all there was so much "unlearning" to do. As JWs we were always looking for something in scripture that just simply was not there.
Two things I have learned, if scripture were too difficult for us to understand, then it wouldn't be a revelation, and the other thing is, what helps us to understand scripture and to draw close to Jesus Christ is the ability to see the obvious, which as JWs we not trained to do.
I've enjoyed your comments very much and they have encouraged me to do further research. Thank you.
Comment by qspf on 2015-04-27 18:53:19
Nightingale, I feel that a few of my words to you above may have come across a little more bluntly that I would have preferred or intended. No matter how careful we might be, sometimes stuff slips out that 20/20 hindsight would have dictated differently. Proverbs 10:19 reminds us "In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression". I regret if any of my tone failed to uphold that standard.
Comment by Nightingale on 2015-04-28 03:35:50
No problem. I often write (and read) in a hurry so my brief comments might sometimes sound like "I want the answer and I want it now" :D - but of course I am not all like that. Interesting comments everybody! I would like to see more like this on the forum though, it's easier to follow comments and the discussion there when you can quote others etc.
Comment by bible_truths on 2016-05-26 20:55:39
Everything in this article is pretty accurate, however its my view that there is indeed ONE hope, but its an earthly hope as Jehovah originally intended for mankind as was his original purpose before Adam and Eve sinned.
We need to look outside the square and understand the whole conception of heaven, the bible has many different meanings for the term "heaven" I can discuss this further, but the answers are all there.
These 144,000 are indeed a different group, they will be given the tasks to instruct and teach mankind with the information revealed in the new scrolls.
The bible does refer to "princes" who will be given this task, and this is logical that its the same ones that will rule with Christ over the 1000 years.
I think that qspf has the same view as me also regarding the earthly hope.Reply by STEWART on 2019-04-08 17:54:30
Ephesians 4:4 teaches Christ's followers - "One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the ONE HOPE of your calling."
That "one hope"- which is everlasting life on earth - is clearly shown in the following scriptures and harmonises with Jesus' propitiatory ransom sacrifice which qualifies him as "the last Adam."
(Psalm 37:11) But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
(Matthew 5:5) “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
(Revelation 21:3, 4) “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Comment by STEWART on 2019-04-07 16:00:57
Jesus offered his life as ransom to buy back what was lost by Adam. (Matt.20:28)
Jesus is thus described as the LAST Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45)
A ransom buys back EXACTLY what was lost - nothing MORE & nothing LESS.
If ANY number of humans are resurrected to heaven to become powerful spirit creatures, it becomes blatantly obvious that Jesus' ransom price achieves MORE than what was lost, and severely unbalances the scales of justice.
NONE of Adam's potential offspring had any hope other than everlasting life on earth.
Just my thoughts.Reply by Biblicaly Inclined on 2020-05-01 05:32:54
Great observation my friend, I'll bring it up in my discussion with friends.
Comment by AnnaNana on 2022-11-05 08:39:54
Hope is like an anchor for the soul - so important for that anchor to be solid!
Many who feel they have an earthly hope also desire to "see" Jehovah. Part of the difficulty is the misunderstanding of this verse:
"No man has seen God at any time."
In what way did John mean "seen"?
John spoke figuratively quite a bit. He calls Jesus "the Word" and "the light'. He says God "is Love" and God "is light".
Let John himself explain..."No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
John was talking about "seeing" Jehovah in all his heavenly glory, in heaven.
Jesus explains further: "And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form."
Jesus had seen Jehovah's "form" in heaven, all Jehovah's glory; that's why Jesus could really explain him. Just meeting the person of Jehovah for the first time or knowing the person of Jehovah for even one human lifetime isn't the same as "seeing" and "knowing" Jehovah in all his heavenly glory the way Jesus has been with and seen and known Jehovah.
What about this scripture in a conversation between Jehovah and Moses: "No man may see me and live"?
"Then he [Moses] said: “Please show me your glory.” But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.” Jehovah said further: “Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. When my glory is passing by, I will place you in a crevice of the rock, and I will shield you with my hand until I have passed by. After that I will take my hand away, and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen.”"
When Jehovah said "my face may not be seen" here, he was talking as regards all his glory. Moses specifically asked to see "your glory". We know Moses saw Jehovah's "face" in a different way, not with all the glory, because the Bible is true.
"Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face, just as one man would speak to another man."
And many other saw Jehovah's face, as recorded in the following:
"Jehovah faced him [Gideon] and said: “Go with the strength you have, and you will save Israel out of Midʹi·an’s hand. Is it not I who send you?" (Judges 6:14)
"Then she [Hagar] called on the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon the one who sees me?”" (Genesis 16:13)
"Then I [Ezekiel] heard someone speaking to me out of the temple, and the man came and stood beside me. He said to me: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet, where I will dwell among the people of Israel forever." (Ezekiel 43:6,7)
"In turn Jacob inquired: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you ask my name?” With that he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Pe·niʹel, for he said, “I have seen God face-to-face, yet my life was preserved.”" (Genesis 22:29,30)
"Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden." (Genesis 3:8)
"Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. Then he said: “Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant. Please, let a little water be brought and have your feet washed; then recline under the tree. Seeing that you have come here to your servant, let me bring a piece of bread so that you may refresh yourselves. Then you may go on your way.” At this they said: “All right. You may do as you have spoken.” So Abraham hurried to the tent to Sarah and said: “Quick! Get three measures of fine flour, knead the dough, and make loaves of bread.” Next Abraham ran to the herd and chose a tender and good young bull. He gave it to the attendant, who hurried to prepare it. He then took butter and milk and the young bull that he had prepared and set the food before them. Then he stood by them under the tree as they were eating. They said to him: “Where is your wife Sarah?” He replied: “Here in the tent.” So one of them continued: “I will surely return to you next year at this time, and look! your wife Sarah will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the tent entrance, which was behind the man. Abraham and Sarah were old, being advanced in years. Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah began to laugh to herself, saying: “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I really have this pleasure?” Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Am I really going to give birth even though I am old?’ Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?"
So Jehovah ate with Abraham, right here on earth. Abraham, the one called "Jehovah's friend". (Also, Abraham is one of Jehovah's earthly children.) Then what happened?
"When the men got up to leave and looked down toward Sodʹom, Abraham was walking with them to escort them. Jehovah said: “Am I keeping hidden from Abraham what I am going to do? Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by means of him. For I have come to know him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him to keep Jehovah’s way by doing what is right and just, so that Jehovah may bring about what he has promised concerning Abraham.” Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham."
There were three "men" who came to Abraham. (Remember, man is made in God's image. "Let us make them in our image.") One "man" was Jehovah. The other two went down to Sodom and found Lot. Jehovah stayed behind to talk with Abraham for awhile.
"Is anything to extraordinary for Jehovah?"
"I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."
"Our Father."
Remember Jesus lineage in the gospels? How does the last line go? "Son of Adam...Son of God."
Our Father can walk on the earth. He can eat with us here. He can talk with us here without us burning up. He can do anything. He's Jehovah.
"No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us. By this we know that we are remaining in union with him and he in union with us, because he has given his spirit to us. In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world. Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him."
John was explaining what it's like to see love. It's the whole letter of First John. What is God's glory like, "seeing" God's glory? It's like seeing love. Do you see the love of the Christ when you read the gospels? That's God's glory. Do you see the love of God reflected in your brothers? That's God's glory. Do you feel His love in you when you love, in union with him and by means of His holy spirit? That's God's glory. Love.
"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me."
"The earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea" and "May your glory be over all the earth!"
"Who is blind except my servant, So deaf as the messenger I send? Who is so blind as the one rewarded, So blind as the servant of Jehovah?"
"At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped."
"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near!"
Praise Jah!