WT Study: Learn from the Illustration of the Talents

Comment by qspf on 2015-05-17 10:56:53

Meleti,
Regarding the Illustration of the talents ...
Anyone who has watched a "magic" show can be fascinated by apparently mystifying feats that defy explanation. But recently, there have been TV programs that do explain how these tricks are done. While they involve skill, finesse, careful timing and good showmanship, they don't require supernatural power. The facts of the matter show that "magicians" are basically really good liars, highly skilled in deceiving people to make them believe something that isn't true. Using their "hand is quicker than the eye" techniques, they move faster than people can pay attention, hoping the crowd won't notice.
Something similar seems to be going on in the WT article you commented about.
First, there is the statement, "the [talents] parable finds its fulfillment in our time and is part of the sign that Jesus is present and ruling as King" then "In the first century, starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., Christ’s followers began doing business with the talents". Unless the WT is arguing for Christ's presence in 33 C.E., they are pulling a fast one here.
You hit the nail on the head by asking, " How can a metaphor constitute a physical sign of something impending?" We know this is a metaphor because the verse says, "For it is just LIKE a man about to travel ...". It does NOT say, 'A man traveled abroad ...". Language like that would not be a metaphor, but then, that is not what the verse says.
So we must further ask, how can a METAPHOR INSIDE A PARABLE constitute a physical sign of ANYTHING?
You next noted, "From paragraphs 14 thru 16, the article offers a new understanding of the wicked and sluggish slave. It claims that there is no actual fulfillment of this part of the parable. Like the wicked slave of Matthew 24:45-57, this is just a warning. So the faithful and discreet slave is a real fulfillment and the two slaves that doubled their talents are a real fulfillment, but the other half of both parables has no fulfillment, but is just a warning."
I contend that this "half and half" construction of an interpretation is unwarranted, unprecedented and illogical. But, it's even worse than that. Tell me, please, where in the Bible have we been given a passage in which one part is prophecy, one part is a parable, and one part if a non-parable warning? All in the same account? I thought the WT was going to "simplify" their teachings, and not claim the type/anti-type interpretation when there were no supporting scriptures. How, may I ask, can a parable be a "type" of a modern-day "anti-type"? Try as I may, I can't understand this; I'm smart, but I'm not THAT smart.
This gibberish is anything BUT "okay dokey".
I commend you for another fine article.
The only area where I differ involves this quote: "Instead, in a curious blending of parables, the Sheep and the Goats parable is merged into the Talents parable so that the other sheep get rewarded with life on earth for working with their anointed brothers in multiplying the talents. (Incidentally, the reward given the sheep makes no mention of location.)"
As you may know, I firmly believe that no one is going to heaven, and that those who are anointed to be king/priests will be on earth and no where else. If that understanding were taken into account, some of the difficulties with the WT's position would be a little more sensible, but, not all of them.
You mentioned that "any Adventist could do the same [identify false doctrines], pointing to the unscriptural teaching of an “other sheep” class of God’s “friends” with no heavenly hope as proof that the JW good news teaching is invalid."
To me, it is the false teaching of a heaven hope that makes (much of) the teachings of the WT invalid. That teaching creates an unnecessary, artificial and unscriptural barrier between Christians, segregating them into children vs. friends, heaven vs. earth, "favored" vs. "others".
How can we reconcile such teachings with the simple truth of the Bible?
"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34-35)
Then this: "[God] himself gives to all [persons] life and breath and all things. And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us." (Acts 17:25-27)
And this: "As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Ps. 115:16) "After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good." (Genesis 1:31)
Humans belong on the earth, not in heaven. Humans on earth in the new system need their ruling king/priests HERE, not in some non-corporeal spirit realm "in a galaxy far, far away" so to speak.
Humans are HERE, on the earth. All of us. We are all in this together. We are not divided, not segregated, and never will be. Our Father did not claim His creation was "very good" only to turn around and abandon that hope for a select few.
What is more, God does not NEED the help of humans resurrected to spirit life to help him rule the earth. "Who has given me something first, that I ought to reward him? Under the whole heavens it is mine." (Job 41:11)
Isaiah 40:13-14 tells us, "Who has taken the proportions of the spirit of Jehovah, and who as his man of counsel can make him know anything? With whom did he consult together that one might make him understand, or who teaches him in the path of justice, or teaches him knowledge, or makes him know the very way of real understanding?"
Does this sound to YOU like Jehovah needs the opinions of a bunch of former humans resurrected to heaven to give HIM advice on how to rule the earth? That is unreasonable, and unscriptural. But, we on earth DO need the advice and guidance that perfect HUMAN rulers could give us, especially when those rulers were being guided by God's spirit.
When we let go of the false notion that people are going to heaven, the entire message and hope of the Bible makes perfect sense.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-17 14:05:53

  Like you, I don't believe that Jesus' brothers will govern by remote control. While the Bible does not give us sufficient detail to make arbitrary assertions, I too feel that those who belong to Christ will have a presence on earth. Just as Jesus, though a spirit, manifested himself in corporeal form so as to interact with his disciples in the 40 days following his resurrection, even eating and drinking with them, so the ones making up the New Jerusalem will also. But, that is my opinion. I cannot prove it. Still, it is correct to use heavenly hope to refer to the inheritance of the kingdom of the heavens, and it is in that sense that I use it.

• Reply by FutureMan on 2015-05-17 19:31:52

  It is our understanding of what "Heaven" is that needs to be modified, that is for certain.
  For instance what did Jesus actually meant by this following statement that he made? : 1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:1-3) New American Standard Bible

  • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-17 21:45:47

    In John 14, My Father's "house" can also mean "household" based on the Greek word. Just as a man may have a number of grown children, each living in their own dwelling places, the father and his children are all part of the same "household" while not actually living in the same "house". Thus, even if God intends to make special arrangements for some of his Son's followers who are destined to have a rulership role in the Kingdom, it doesn't mean those ones are going to reside in God's presence.
    We should note carefully that Jesus did not say anything here about "heaven" or "resurrection" in these verses. He just says that he will go (somewhere) to (somehow) prepare a "place" for you (disciples).
    Those "places" must not have existed yet at the time Jesus uttered these words, because if his Father already had many dwelling places, and any of them were 'unoccupied', there would have been no need to "prepare" more of them.
    Further, Jesus says, "I will come again and receive you". He does NOT say, 'You will come (to heaven?) to me, and then I will receive you (there).' Finally, he says, "where I am, there you may be also". In other words, Jesus and his followers would simply be in the same place. He does NOT say that place is in heaven - only that wherever it is, they will be there together.
    I contend that the 144,000 class of king/priests will rule on earth as humans of flesh and blood. The "place" described here is the divinely-provided arrangement for these persons to act as rulers over the earth for the 1,000 year reign. That arrangement could possibly include any physical arrangements on earth to make their rule possible and effective.
    We know from Acts 1:11 that the angel told the disciples, "This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky." So they were plainly told he would come again. And, as defined in Strong's Concordance, the "presence" of Christ, using the Greek word "parousia", can mean "the royal visit of a king, or emperor" especially at the beginning of their reign.
    It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus will return physically, with a materialized body much like the ones he used for the 40 days after being resurrected. That materialized body would be "temporary" in nature, and would not represent Jesus taking back his human life, since he gave that life as a sacrifice. In that form, he will visit the earth during the 1,000 year reign - his parousia - likely to teach, train and assist the king/priests in carrying out their duties. During that time, Jesus and the king/priests will be in the same place (on earth). He will warmly receive them, and speak to them personally. Once that period is over, Christ will return to the heavens, and probably not return again.
    That's how I see it, anyway.

    • Reply by Skye on 2015-05-18 03:48:16

      qspf. You say that the king/priests will rule on earth as humans of flesh and blood.
      We don't have details of our glorified human bodies, though we do realise of course that they will be different from our current bodies. Just a thought about what Jesus said at Luke 24:39 "....a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." He didn't say "flesh and blood."

      • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 11:41:58

        Skye,
        My terminology of saying "humans of flesh and blood" and Jesus' words of "flesh and bone" are simply figures of speech. Such expressions are used to explain a concept, and these two expressions mean exactly the same thing. It is not necessary to describe the whole inventory of human parts, as if we needed to include ligaments, tendons, hair, etc. Jesus just wanted to make a clear distinction between something the disciples might have thought was in their imagination, or was wishful thinking, or was a disembodied spirit attempting to deceive them, on one hand - and the fact of Jesus being physically in their presence on the other hand. Jesus appeared to the them in a physical, materialized body - a real thing that they could see and touch, and not something imaginary or supernatural.
        Of course, this materialized body was NOT the same body or same life Jesus gave up as a sacrifice; if it were, it would have meant he was "taking back" that sacrifice, which he would never have done. These materialized bodies were "temporary", miraculously created on the spot by means of God's power, to serve the purpose of conveying information to Christ's followers. We know from other accounts in the Bible that had Jesus manifested himself in some other way, like a disembodied voice, that would have frightened people, and they would not have listened to him. By having these temporary materialized bodies appear, Jesus was showing kindness to his followers by informing them of what they needed to know in a reassuring way that would not frighten them.

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-18 11:49:23

          Do you believe that Christ's brothers will, like him, possess spirit bodies but have the ability to materialize fleshly ones for the purpose of ruling as kings and priests on earth?

          • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 14:06:05

            No, I don't believe Christ's brother will ever have spirit bodies at any time, and will never "materialize" in the sense that Christ did in order to appear to his disciples.
            Christ HAD TO give up the body he was born into as a Son of God and a child of Mary, otherwise he would have taken back his ransom sacrifice. When he materialized after being resurrected, it was necessary for God to create these temporary life forms for the sole purpose of communicating with Christ's followers on earth.
            In contrast, those destined to rule as king/priests on the earth (both those that are resurrected for this role, and those currently alive at the time the Kingdom rules on earth) will do so with real, permanent human bodies that they will inhabit forever (assuming they remain faithful from that point forward, which in all likelihood the vast majority will do).
            Because it is necessary for the rulership over the earth under the Kingdom to righteously administered from day one, these king/priests will be made instantly perfect in mind and body, and will be without sin; they will be "transformed in the twinkling of an eye" - not into angels or spirits, but into perfect, righteous humans. This is a thing that has never happened before, where an imperfect person was transformed into a perfect one. The resulting person could, without hesitation, be described as a "new creation", would you not agree? (Whether they remain without sin will be up to their free will, conscience and loyalty to God and Christ. It is reasonable to assume that very few, if any, would choose to turn bad afterwards, but it is not an absolute impossibility.)
            To understand what happens here, we must reconcile the role of these king/priests with 1 Corinthians 15:23-28:
            "23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 or [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
            The issue is, what happens to the 144,000 class of king/priests AFTER the 1,000 year reign is over? If Christ himself turns over the Kingdom to God, and thus God alone is king over mankind, humans will relate to God directly, without need for any king, priest, or mediator. They will be able to freely address God directly, just as Adam and Eve were able to do before their fall, and just like Jesus did, such as when resurrecting Lazarus, which is described in Luke 11:41-42: "... Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth.” " Jesus as a perfect, righteous man, did not need any intermediary to speak to God; he knew his Father was listening and he did not need to "beg" for an audience with Him. The human race, when in a righteous state before God, will be in a similar situation and will not need Christ in the same sense that they need him now.
            That being so, and since Christ will not be serving in the capacity of king after that point, what purpose would be served by the 144,000 king/priests? Their services would no longer be required. If these ones were really resurrected to the spirit realm as angelic-like beings, what would be left for them to do? "Sit around and collect unemployment", so to speak? Would they be "trapped" in heaven with nothing left to do? It doesn't really make sense.
            But, assume that the king/priests are resurrected to life on earth, and that is where they stay forever. What happens at the end, when Christ turns over the Kingdom to his Father? The human king/priests will do the same. They will have honorably completed their service to God, Christ and their fellow man, and will from that point forward be ordinary humans, no longer serving as king/priests. When that happens, all mankind will be united. There will not be a two-class arrangement for life, where a minority are highly privileged and the rest are not. It will not be a case of the "haves" versus the "have nots". Instead, we will all, equally be children of God, on earth where He originally purposed us to be.
            Doesn't that understanding make more sense?
            

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-18 14:38:07

              It's not about making more sense from a human point of view. We simply lack all the facts, and so any conclusion we come to, even if it sounds logical at present, is unconvincing, because there are too many unknowns. For example, suggesting that the brothers of Christ will have to become humans after their reign is over, because we can't think of anything else that makes more sense for them to do is an opinion based on an unwarranted assumption. (See the fallacy: an argument from personal incredulity.
              Our concern on this forum is not to fall into the mindset that has misguided the leadership of the Watchtower Organization since before we were known as Jehovah's Witnesses. To that end, we strive to harmonize all Scriptures relating to a subject before arriving at any conclusion, even a provisional one. While the post under consideration wasn't about the heavenly hope, the subject did come up. Since there is a difference of opinion on the matter, we'll try to put together a post that addresses all the Scriptures on this topic. Perhaps you could do the same. A good place to start would be to address the verses that Kev raised in his previous comment.

    • Reply by Nick_O on 2015-05-18 20:12:37

      Whether in heaven or on earth, for sure there would be one major marked difference from humans now: Matt 22:30
      Jesus words about marriage after resurrection has to apply.

      • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-19 08:28:51

        Nick,
        Matthew 22:29-30 tells us, "In reply Jesus said to them [the Sadducees, who posed the riddle about a women having seven husbands]: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven."
        Some have concluded that this means that those resurrected will be angels, or will be spirit persons "as angels" are. Watchtower has waffled on this question, and seemingly the position now is that they are not sure and we should not speculate. The WT teaching of a heavenly hope for some adds to this confusion.
        However, consider Romans 7:2-3: "For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s."
        Thus, what do we know for certain? It is that, at death, the bonds of marriage are broken (in response to the challenge made to Jesus by the Sadducees).
        We should note carefully that the verse does NOT say that the resurrected ones "ARE angels in heaven" but rather that they "are AS angels in heaven". Here, the Greek word "hos" gets translated to "LIKE" or "AS" in nearly every translation. So, resurrected ones are not angels, but, in some way, they are "like" them. How so?
        We must acknowledge that no where in the Bible is it ever stated or implied that angels could marry, or have ever done so, or that they have any particular personal relationships with each other. They are always depicted as male, and as such, we would describe them as "unattached". Angels never are depicted as having, or being bound by, a formalized, solemn relationship with another of their own kind, that would be comparable in any way to a marriage as we understand it.
        This seems to be the answer Jesus was giving. Not that people are resurrected to life as spirit persons, comparable in spirit nature to angels. But rather, they will be resurrected as humans of flesh and blood, but humans whose prior marital relationship has been (and would initially continue to be) severed by their deaths. They would "single" and "unattached" just like angels are.
        A resurrected person would not be automatically given (back) in marriage to the person they used to be married to (or to ANY of them, if they were married more than once). Any marital arrangement they brought themselves into after being resurrected as humans of flesh and blood would have to be made at that time.
        It is certainly romantic to think two previously married persons, after being resurrected as humans, would choose to marry each other again. And, no doubt, many will. But, when first brought back to life, they will be unmarried, and they are FREE to make that choice for themselves. This passage has nothing to do with being resurrected to life in heaven.
        

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-19 09:17:59

          There are actually two issues here. Do Christ's brothers go to heaven and are they raised as spirits. Let’s leave the first one for the moment and deal with the second, which is germane to the question of the application of Mt 22:29, 30.
          In Luke’s parallel account we have this:
          34 Jesus told them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to take part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 For they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are sons of God, since they are sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36 HCSB)
          
          Jesus is speaking plainly here. If he had wanted to establish that death severs all past marital obligations, he could have said that. But that would have implied that the resurrected could still marry. He wanted to silence his opposers without misleading his disciples. He didn't come to preach an earthly hope and an earthly resurrection. He came to call those who would inherit the kingdom of the heavens. So he says plainly that those who are resurrected do not marry. This cannot be seen to mean that they will not obliged to fulfill past marriage vows, but can still marry. That would be to contradict what he plainly states.
          Of course, that would have raised the question, “What will men and women do if they cannot marry?” So he pre-emptively answers that by saying they will be like the angels. His audience knew that angels are sexless, being neither male nor female in their native form. Angels also do not die as humans do. Angels are spirits. (He 1:7) So in one simply declaration he silenced those challenging him and laid the groundwork for what would later be revealed to his disciples.
          Being like angels doesn’t make them angels. Angels are messengers of God—for that is what the word means—but Jesus’ brothers are Kings and Priests of the Christ. So being like angels means they have the same or similar form—sexless spirit creatures. To inherit the kingdom, they cannot be of flesh and blood. (1Co 15:50) They die in the flesh so as to be resurrected as spirits, like the angels are. (1Co 15:44)
          This is the power of God which along with the Scriptures, those Sadducees did not know.

          • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-19 10:40:56

            
            Meleti,
            We must understand that the Sadducees asked their question in order to trip up Jesus. Had he been unable to give the Sadducees an answer, it would have given credibility to their assertion that there was no resurrection.
            Thus, the primary message conveyed by Jesus' answer is, 'Yes, there is a resurrection' and 'your riddle does not invalidate the resurrection hope'. Anything else we might glean from this verse is secondary.
            We also have to acknowledge that the wording of these verses is somewhat ambiguous and problematic. If it were otherwise, people would not have had such difficulty understanding them. Watchtower itself struggled for years trying to come up with a coherent understanding, changing their minds many times. We have to face the possibility that there is simply not enough in the scriptures to go on to be completely certain of our understanding.
            Now, you ask "Do Christ’s brothers go to heaven" but then set that aside. However, this verse is not talking about Christ's brothers, since he did not have any brothers, per se, in the spirit-begotten sense, at the time he uttered these words, but at that same time the resurrection was already a real hope for mankind.
            We know from Romans 7:2, "For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband."
            A reference to "law" is made, and while the Mosaic Law doesn't seem to explicitly state this (that I could find), there are several cases of "brother-in-law marriage" described, which was done when a woman's husband died. So, there is evidence that the first century listeners to Jesus already knew that death severed a marriage. While it's true that "he could have said that", there was simply no need to. The fact that he didn't say it explicitly is not really important. They knew it, Jesus knew it, later Christian Bible writers knew it, and we know it.
            So, let us agree that we know for a certainty that death ends a marriage. This is not in question.
            Does that understanding imply "that the resurrected could still marry" in and of itself? Would that implication be even more certain had Jesus actually explicitly said a few words about death ending a marriage? Perhaps, if you say so, but in all honesty, I don't see how. The exact meaning we should be deriving from an implication of words Jesus didn't say is a little vague to me. You'd have to clarify your position on this to convince me. I don't think the case has been made.
            You stated, "He [Jesus] didn’t come to preach an earthly hope and an earthly resurrection." However, that is very point of debate. I contend that this is exactly what he came to preach. You can't simply assert this claim as is, without something more to back it up.
            I agree that Jesus "came to call those who would inherit the kingdom of the heavens." However, "the kingdom of the heavens" is synonymous with "the kingdom of God". The kingdom arrangement originated with the God of Heaven, and He installed Christ Jesus as its heavenly king. Those that serve as king/priests in the kingdom inherit from heaven the authority to rule and the blessings of that kingdom. Do they need to actually be in heaven to do that? I contend the answer is No.
            Jesus stated, "those who are counted worthy to take part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage".
            When, exactly, do they not marry or are not given in marriage? They refrain from those things AT THE POINT THEY ARE RESURRECTED. Do they continue to refrain from marriage for all eternity? We must be honest about this, and state that the SCRIPTURES HERE ARE SILENT ON THIS MATTER.
            Jesus only describes what their initial state will be, once resurrected. He says nothing about their future life later. Because he is silent on this matter, I must disagree when you state, "This cannot be seen to mean that they will not obliged to fulfill past marriage vows, but can still marry. That would be to contradict what he plainly states." There is, in fact, no conflict.
            Once resurrected humans have God's final approval, whenever that takes place, they will not die any more. They will not technically be indestructible, but they will be immortal, providing they remain faithful and obedient to God. In that sense, they would continue to live forever, just as angels will do. Because of receiving God's blessing and approval, such ones will be restored to the position of being God's "sons" or children, just as Jesus was, and as Adam and Eve first were.
            We agree that "Being like angels doesn’t make them angels." But we disagree in that, as I contend, being "like angels" does not make them non-corporeal spirit persons either. They simply emerge from the state of death to resurrected life as single, unattached humans, unencumbered by any former marriage commitments.
            It is important to remember the purpose of the discussion as a whole. It was an attempt to embarrass Jesus, to make it appear that the resurrection was an impossibility because of the riddle posed. That riddle was intended to show it could result in an untenable legal position, that of a woman being obligated to marry seven men, a thing no one would have accepted. Jesus cleared answered that the woman would not have had such an obligation. There was in fact no untenable legal issues. That answered the question.
            However, you then state, 'Of course, that would have raised the question, “What will men and women do if they cannot marry?”'
            This is a false assertion. Jesus never used the expression "cannot marry". He merely said that they didn't. Further, we do not know what questions would or would not have been raised. That is mere speculation. In point of fact, the account says that Jesus' reply basically shut them up, and they had no further questions.
            I contend that the answer to this hypothetical question is plain. Jesus never said resurrected ones cannot marry, because they can. It is unthinkable and unreasonable to believe that the same God who said it is not good for man to live alone, would condemn formerly married people to exist for all eternity alone. I absolutely refuse to believe that, because this statement about the resurrection applies to all resurrected. And, unless you are prepared to state that all resurrected persons go to heaven, you have a problem here.
            These people are going to be resurrected to human life in a non-married state, will be able to choose for themselves how their future lives are lived.
            

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-19 15:44:34

              qspf: "We also have to acknowledge that the wording of these verses is somewhat ambiguous and problematic. If it were otherwise, people would not have had such difficulty understanding them. Watchtower itself struggled for years trying to come up with a coherent understanding, changing their minds many times. We have to face the possibility that there is simply not enough in the scriptures to go on to be completely certain of our understanding."
              I disagree. The wording is quite straightforward. Why did the Watchtower struggle with this for years? Not because it’s difficult to understand that people who are resurrected like angels will not marry, but because they were saddled with a preconceived doctrinal viewpoint. They had to make Jesus' words fit with their own teaching. That's where the difficulty came from.
              qspf: "You stated, “He [Jesus] didn’t come to preach an earthly hope and an earthly resurrection.” However, that is very point of debate. I contend that this is exactly what he came to preach. You can’t simply assert this claim as is, without something more to back it up."
              
              You are asking me to prove a negative. Asking a man to prove a negative is like asking him to prove he never robbed a bank. It is significantly easier to prove a positive. You contend that Christians are resurrected on earth with human bodies. I would ask you to prove it, but not here. It is a topic better suited to the Discuss the Truth forum. If you open a topic there, I will participate.
              qspf: When, exactly, do they not marry or are not given in marriage? They refrain from those things AT THE POINT THEY ARE RESURRECTED. Do they continue to refrain from marriage for all eternity? We must be honest about this, and state that the SCRIPTURES HERE ARE SILENT ON THIS MATTER.
              To say “we must be honest about this” implies that someone isn’t being honest. Rather than get into individual motivation, let’s stick with the grammar. Jesus said,
              "Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;"
              The verb “marry” in both places is in the same tense, voice, and mood: present active indicative. This verb tense is very common in the Greek Scriptures. It doesn’t refer to a point in time, but an ongoing condition or action. If I say “I know my name”, I’m using the present active indicative. I am not in any way implying a conditional state, or something relating to a single point in time. No one would hear that and say "Oh, he means now he knows his name, but since he is silent on the matter of whether he'll know his name tomorrow, we can't make any assumptions."
              When Jesus said that the “sons of this age marry” he was speaking about an ongoing process, or condition, or state of affairs. By using the same tense when speaking of the ‘sons of that age,’ he was communicating the same idea of an ongoing process or condition or state of affairs. If he wanted to indicate a point in time, i.e., the point of their resurrection, then our Lord, a master of the spoken word, would have had to use a different verb tense or add a conditional statement.
              
              qspf: "We agree that “Being like angels doesn’t make them angels.” But we disagree in that, as I contend, being “like angels” does not make them non-corporeal spirit persons either. They simply emerge from the state of death to resurrected life as single, unattached humans, unencumbered by any former marriage commitments."
              You make an assertion without supplying proof, while dismissing my statement which was backed up by two Scriptural references.
              I would ask that if you wish to carry this discussion further—and I have no problem with that—we take it to the Discuss the Truth forum, since that was one of the primary reasons we set it up. It is more suitable to this type of discussion as it allows all to participate on a single thread and makes tracking the discussion progress easier.

  • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-17 22:04:09

    We must also soberly consider this: Who is it that claimed that mankind's future was in the heavens? Who said that humans would not die (they would be immortal) and live in the spirit realm like God does (they would be like God)?
    Satan did.
    We need to face the fact that when men expect to be changed into immortal spirit persons, and teach others to that effect when they espouse the doctrine of the heavenly hope, they are promoting the teachings of demons.
    In contrast, the Bible says that the heavens are for God and the earth is for man.
    If heavenly life were really a teaching of God, why is there not a single verse in the Bible that says anything like "faithful followers of God and Christ will go to heaven when they die." It is nowhere to be found.

• Reply by truthseeker on 2015-05-18 01:00:35

  I've lately come to agree with you on this. It ties up a lot of loose ends. For me, like the meek will inherit the earth, and Jesus promising the twelve not to drink the product of the wine until he drinks it with them in his kingdom. My wife has always been sure of this for the simple reason that Jehovah does not change his original purposes. Instead he rectified things to himself and his purposes. I also agree with mementos explanation that follows. A lot of these problems with our own understanding of things are just semantically problems that stem from our own limited understanding. Thank you for your well thought out comments.p

Comment by on 2015-05-17 12:16:56

Why does the explanation of this parable and others always seem to have an application only in the preaching work . Its not too difficult to work out what jesus meant here . If we are applying these verses to the preaching work and the success and responsibilty to make other disciples falls on every christian to increase the masters by using the talents that each and every one of us have been given . Then would it not also follow that by doing such each and every christian would prove himself to be a faithful and discreet slave . But that would never do would it . Looking at the parable what talents did jesus give to his slaves In order to do buisness . If anything i think it could be said they describe the talents described at 1 corinthians 12 13 and 14 . These gifts were used by one another to help others and build up the true christian congregation of christs brothers . Not to be overlooked either is jesus parable of the steward of luke 16 who made friends by means of the riches entrusted to him by his master for does not a talent taken literally mean money entrusted to him .so have we used our riches entrusted to us to give gifts of mercy to help our suffering brothers kev

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-17 16:11:14

  Hi Kev,
  I can't really tell if you're using a play on the word talent, but for anyone who might be confused on this point, a "talent" was a weight measurement of silver or gold. See: http://biblehub.com/greek/5007.htm
  New International Version
  To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.
  New Living Translation
  He gave five bags of silver to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the last--dividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip.
  English Standard Version
  To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

  • Reply by on 2015-05-17 22:43:51

    Yeah thanks anderstimme thats is correct what you say my understanding is that is was a measure of gold . i was using the term loosely to apply for our riches but what you say is right . Thanks . Kev

  • Reply by on 2015-05-18 04:58:45

    Its interesting also in the uk our currency is measured in pounds sterling . Which the paper money is a representation of a weight measure a pound of sterling silver . So britain has got talent we could say . Kev

    • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 10:24:27

      I always appreciate a good pun!

Comment by umbertoecho on 2015-05-17 13:53:05

qspf
This was a good scripturally supported piece of writing. I really enjoyed it. And although I am still very confused about this heaven versus life on earth forever thing. I can see a sound and reasonable debate here. I have just been contacted again for the purposes of bringing me back into this religion (for I cannot call it the truth as such)
I don't quite know what to do about this as I believe in Jehovah and have deep respect for the honour that is due to Christ. I have asked that we "not" study books, for books are man's writings and I don't consider them inspired.
This (actually, rather nice) woman has agreed, even though she tried to pull out the same old, time tested method of showing me a "book" and called it a bible study. To which I said what is just above. She did not discount my reasoning but no doubt will feel like a fish out of water when we deal exclusively with the bible. I know that it will be hard not to refer to "books" by the society and their oh so glib explanations of what this or that passage means. Perhaps it's going to be enlightening for her as much as me.
I read this site all the time for I need to get a grip on what is really going on with this religion. I always hope that there will be some redeeming article or talk at the hall.......some thing that will restore my flagging faith. I went to one meeting a few weeks ago and it could not have been the worst timing if I had just thrown a dart at at calendar. It turned out to be a hookup from Bethel in Sydney and sent to all the Australasian countries including N.Zealand.
I was shocked to hear that we could not record (well not so shocked about that) What really shocked me was when we were told...." You may take notes, but you are not to share those notes with anyone..." This was enforced in a way that was amazing, as brothers walked up and down the aisles through out the whole thing taking note of all who were either writing or using their apps. The atmosphere was not joyous or friendly and I was refused a watch tower magazine to study. I suppose I have gone off track here, yet in a way this is in counter point to this claim of the preaching work and all the love and hope that is supposed to accompany ones interest in this org. I felt no such feelings of love or fruitages of the spirit at that meeting.
I may only be worth one talent at the end of the day. But this brother was asking for lots of talents during this bloat and gloat session. Interestingly, the rapturous applause that usually accompanies such hookup session was very dampened down as this pompous man kept asking for money with each subject, no scratch that.........with just about every second sentence. The congregation was desultory at best in response to these persistent requests.
I have lived in a spiritual void of sorts, since I realized that I had been neglecting the best source available to me, to all of us. This of course is the bible which has endured.
My childhood training has been difficult to over come in the sense of relying upon other written and spoken interpretations of what is really meant. I am not going to go on and on about this site. However, I must say this. That if not for this site, I would not have continued to read the bible and I would have completely drifted away.

• Reply by billy on 2015-05-17 14:55:47

  I have felt the same attending JW meetings - im more encouraged when i read the bible than attending a meeting

  • Reply by umbertoecho on 2015-05-18 00:42:45

    indeed Billy (like the connotation of the name very funny) It is a liberating experience to read and then re read something in the bible. I even have the audacity to ask for some little bit of holy spirit to help me to understand. I don't want to be lazy in my thinking, even though it is so unpopular within the societies rule. This is one forum that manages to stay on track with regard to biblical discussion. Nice to meet you
    Um

Comment by yobec on 2015-05-17 14:52:09

Thanks for another good article Meleti.
The G.B. is always quick to JUDGE other religions as being wicked by pointing to their false teachings of the Trinity. However, what constitutes a greater blasphemy, teaching that there is a Trinity or teaching that most all Christians ought not to partake of the bread and wine since Christ is not their mediator ?
As regards to whether we will be going to heaven or live on earth, I would suggest that when we preach to others, we tell them that there are different viewpoints on this matter. Let's face it, whatever we choose to believe when it comes to this matter doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things for it is our heavenly Father that will place us where he sees fit. I am not saying this to curb interest in the subject but to help us all remained united in the hope we all have namely, SALVATION period.

• Reply by menrov on 2015-05-19 04:59:49

  "As regards to whether we will be going to heaven or live on earth, I would suggest that when we preach to others, we tell them that there are different viewpoints on this matter"
  Agree. It is all about entering and receiving eternal life inthe Kingdom of Heaven, regardless where it is.

Comment by billy on 2015-05-17 15:16:33

I have nt read the wt article - but what comes to my mind when the word talent is used in the parable would be using our gifts to bring people to God and Jesus - the society places too much emphasis on door to door preaching when there are many ways of reaching people - some plant, some water, etc. 1 cor 3:6 - taking care of widows and orphans jas 1:27- being a good Samaritan luke 10:25- 27 - being loving and kind 1 cor 13:1,2 - practicing the fruitage of the spirit gal 5:22-26 - and so much more :)

Comment by yobec on 2015-05-17 15:47:59

If, as the w/t says, the talents represent solely the preaching commission, then why, does the scriptures say that only SOME of the disciples would be appointed as evangelizers? And also, why in the parable of the sheep and the goats, is the preaching assignment not utilized as a gauge for salvation?
On another note. If we are no longer going to use types and antitypes unless the scriptures are specific about such things, then how come we have just done that with identifying the "faithful slave"? We say that since only a few disciples fed the crowd, it typifies the few in charge of the spiritual feeding, namely the G.B. ?

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-17 16:55:54

  yobec, you ask the right question but I'd reverse the order: Why, if the scriptures say that some (but not all) were given as evangelizers, does the WT say everyone must be? Sadly, we already know the answer. It's because evangelizing brings in more members, who distribute more literature, which brings in more money, which adds to their power, which prompts them to call for more evangelizing. These things serve the interests of men.
  Matthew 6:8: "Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the [kingdom halls] and on the corners of the broad ways [with their JW.ORG carts] to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full."

• Reply by menrov on 2015-05-19 05:04:16

  Well, verse 27 makes it clear that the talents do not represent preaching (door-to-door): 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest
  The master would have been satisfied if the slave would have used others (people, methods etc) in order to increase the talent.

Comment by miken on 2015-05-17 16:13:09

"Therefore, the doctrine that the Governing Body was appointed in 1919 is a house whose foundation has been removed."
Those of us who have studied Don Cameron's book Captives of a Concept realised years ago that there never was any foundational evidence in the first place for the 1919 claim. Historically the first major campaign after the supposed 1919 appointment was the Millions Will Never Die campaign from 1920-1925. Well those old enough to understand that message at that time have died, is that evidence of a divine appointment by a God who cannot lie? Do the false prophets scriptures come to mind.

Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-05-17 23:09:45

So we all have to read applications of Jesus parables without WT ideas and interpretations, because everthing that's presented is to support WT theology and organization,not to reveal truth .
When I was a pioneer back in the late 80s I had 2 study's, in the live forever book.The first guy stopped his study because as he said to me the explanation of the generation was a human attempt to preempt what Jehovah had placed in his durisdiction.
The second guy stopped his study because as he told me, you are not separating the sheep from the goats, that's Jesus business , both these guys knew well in advance what was correct as a few years on both these doctrines were changed and agreed with the conclusions that both these study's had reached,I couldn't explain why these guys knew in advance, before " Jehovah's channel" knew ?
That was the beginning of the end of my belief in WT teaching,and since then have watched most things taught as truth 25 years ago now no longer truth, so I just look at WT articles as groping in the dark.

Comment by bobcat3 on 2015-05-18 05:16:08

For any interested, I posted really good, in depth analysis of the parable of the talents on the DTT site (,a href="http://discussthetruth.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=864&start=20#p10168">here) from the NICNT-Matthew commentary.
There was a comment about "talents" relating to natural abilities. The commentary touches on that subject also.
Bobcat

• Reply by bobcat3 on 2015-05-18 05:17:44

  Oops, that link was here.

• Reply by on 2015-05-18 12:09:20

  it is interesting that you should post this as i was about to do the same and mention that the word " talent" in French means exactly that, namely " ability ". Does anyone know what the Greek root word for "talent" is ?

  • Reply by menrov on 2015-05-19 05:10:01

    [ A-1,Noun,G5007, talanton ]
    originally a balance," then, "a talent in weight," was hence "a sum of money" in gold or silver equivalent to a "talent." The Jewish "talent" contained 3,000 shekels of the sanctuary, e.g., Exodus 30:13 (about 114 lbs.). In NT times the "talent" was not a weight of silver, but the Roman-Attic "talent," comprising 6,000 denarii or drachmas, and equal to about f240. It is mentioned in Matthew only, Matthew 18:24; Matthew 25:15-Matthew 25:16, Matthew 25:20 (twice in the best texts), Matthew 25:22 (thrice), Matthew 25:24-Matthew 25:25, Matthew 25:28 (twice). In Matthew 18:24 the vastness of the sum, 10,000 talents (f2,400,000), indicates the impossibility of man's clearing himself, by his own efforts, of the guilt which lies upon him before God.
    Note: That the "talent" denoted "something weighed" has provided the meaning of the Eng. word as "a gift or ability," especially under the influence of the parable of the talents (Mat. 25:14-30).
    -------------------
    Thayer:
    1) the scale of a balance, a balance, a pair of scales
    2) that which is weighed, a talent
    2a) a weight varying in different places and times
    2b) a sum of money weighing a talent and varying in different states and according to the changes in the laws regulating currency
    2b1) the Attic talent was equal to
    60 Attic minae or 6000 drachmae 2b2) a talent of silver in Israel weighed about
    100 pounds (45 kg)
    2b3) a talent of gold in Israel weighed about
    200 pounds (91 kg)
    --------------------
    LSJ Gloss:
    τάλαντον
    a balance
    Dodson:
    τάλαντον
    a talent of silver or gold.
    Strong's:
    τάλαντον
    equivalent to G5342); a balance (as supporting weights), i.e. (by implication) a certain weight (and thence a coin or rather sum of money) or "talent"
    Derivation: neuter of a presumed derivative of the original form of τλάω (to bear;

• Reply by yobec on 2015-05-18 14:05:17

  As a note of interest, the word "talent" in French means exactly that, "Ability"

Comment by on 2015-05-18 05:47:07

Brothers how do we get around phillipians 3 v 20 and 21 . And 1 peter 1 v 3 and 4 . . I fully accept that revelation 21 speaks of the new jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god and the faithful are part of it . Also i understand that the earth was made to be inhabied by faithful mankind . . I think one of the problems is that when we speak of heaven we tend to think of a specific location somewhere out in the galaxy . Where i think its just possible that it may mean the spiritual realm that may exist all around us ephesians 2 v2 even while we live on this earth . The bible does say that jesus is sitting at the right hand of god hebrews 1 v 13 but he also said he is with us till the conclusion of the age . . Matthew 28 v 20 .. .. it just may be possible that heaven could be alot closer than what most of us think acts 17 v 27 . Hebrews 3 v1 . Ps just a theory thats all Kev

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-18 08:17:22

  Kev, I don't think we can get around them. Our hope is a heavenly one. I agree with you on your take that the heavens represents a spiritual realm that is all around us. Because we live in four dimension, we cannot conceive of the heavens being anything but some literal location in the physical universe. Yet if God is there, it cannot be within the physical universe. We are dealing with things we cannot understand. What we can say with certitude is that we will be transformed into a spiritual body, something incorruptible. (1Co 15:44; 50-54)
  Paul spoke of a new creation, but was he merely speaking of the Christian way, or something more? (2Co 5:17; Ga 6:15) Angels were created to be angels and humans to be humans. But Jesus has lived as both a man and a spirit. Will his brothers also be something new. Time will tell.
  It's fun to speculate about what we cannot fully understand at this point. But it is our faith that makes us trust that what God promises for us will be good, and so we strive to attain it, whatever "it" might actually turn out to be.
  “For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.” (1Co 13:12)
  Will we be li

  • Reply by on 2015-05-18 11:17:59

    Yes i agree with that meleti .. thanks for the work you put in with these watchtower commentries . kev

  • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 11:27:16

    Unquestionably, our hope originates in the heavens. Life itself originates with the God of Heaven, and He sent His Son from heaven so that he could become the way, the truth and the life; he is the manna from heaven. Clearly, without heaven in the picture, we have no hope for life.
    But, just like I am a U.S. citizen, am governed by U.S. laws and spend U.S. money, but don't live in Washington D.C., our hope can be in the heavens and originate there, without the need for we ourselves to actually live there.
    Consider these verses Meleti noted, with their context:
    1 Corinthians 5:16: "So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. 18? ut all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation."
    Galatians 6:14: "But may I never boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been put to death with regard to me and I with regard to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. 16 As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."
    What is notable about these verses is that the "new creation" appears to have ALREADY BEEN IN EXISTENCE in the first century. Paul addresses the Christians in Corinth and Galatia as though becoming a "new creation" is something that took place in the past tense; it was already an accomplished fact.
    Then note this from Colossians 1:3: "We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for YOU, 4 since we heard of YOUR faith in connection with Christ Jesus and the love YOU have for all the holy ones 5 because of the hope that is being reserved for YOU in the heavens."
    This tells us our HOPE is reserved for faithful Christians in the heavens, but the verse pointedly does NOT say that a PLACE is reserved for them. The hope originates with God and Christ, who both reside in heaven. But where will that hope be realized for faithful mankind? This verse does not say this place is in heaven. That is to say, one can be a "new creation" WITHOUT being in heaven.
    And we have this in Ephesians 2: "Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses - by undeserved kindness you have been saved. 6 Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming systems of things he might demonstrate the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus."
    Look closely at verse 6. Again, what is notable is that this describes something in the past tense, a thing that already occurred, which is being discussed with those Christians of Ephesus who were alive in the first century. Even though those persons had not yet died, and thus had not been literally resurrected in any sense of the word, they are nonetheless described as ALREADY "seated ... together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus". The Greek language here is clear and unambiguous; every Bible translation I could find (about 20 of them) all used language indicating a past-tense event.
    How is that possible? To me, the only explanation is that those Ephesians were then-presently with Christ "in spirit", because they were "in union" with him. Their lives were in complete harmony with God's will and purposes for them as anointed Christians. The purposes and requirements for faithful Christians originated in heaven, just as Jesus stated in John 14:24, "the word that YOU are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me." They did not need to be physically relocated to heaven for them to enjoy that spiritual union, any more than God and Christ need to be elements of a Trinity for THEM to be in perfect union. They are united in PURPOSE, not in location.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-18 11:47:19

      I see your point, but for me there is another possible explanation. However, since you raise this point, please show how it harmonizes with the verse Kev brought to our attention in his comment.

    • Reply by on 2015-05-18 15:29:39

      Thanks qspf for the explanation and to be fair i can see your reasoning on ephesians chapter 2 v 6 being in the past tense . namely he seated us in the heavenly places even when they were still in thier fleshly bodies on earth . Theres also some similar wording at ephesians 1 v 3 to 5 if i may qoute it . Blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with christ just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love for he foreordained us to the adoption through jesus christ as sons to himself to the good pleasure of his will . ...... so at the start of the letter paul discusses the concept of foreordination as the NWT calls it or predestination as some other translations call it . This theme of foreordination seems to run through the letter chapter 1 v11 chapter 2 v10 . Its almost as if god chose either individuals or if not a class of people from the beginning to fullfill his purpose And when god does this it is certain to come about . Could it be with this concept in mind paul could speak of being seated in the heavenly places as being in the past ? Notice also that in chapter 2 v 7 that paul seems to switch from the past to the future where he spoke of the coming system of things . . Possible i suppose . I enjoy your comments by the way brother . Its good for us all to be able openly express our opinion and learn from one another . proverbs 15 v22 perhaps this is where the watchtower has gone wrong .. cheers kev

      • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 18:47:57

        
        Kev,
        It is likely that what was foreordained was God's purpose for there to be, in principle, a class of persons we now know as the 144,000, who will be king/priests in the Kingdom. It is less likely that any individual persons were specifically picked out and chosen in advance, since each one would still have had to prove their integrity to God, and each of them has free will. While God could use his divine power and wisdom to predict the future and figure out who those persons would be, the general consensus on such matters is that God generally doesn't do that. So, it seems certain God had an intended PURPOSE in advance for this group of people, while probably not selecting any of them individually.
        As for whether the fact that this purpose, decided in the past (probably at the time of the rebellion in Eden) is the same thing as that group being described as being "seated in the heavenly places" as a past-tense event, I am less certain. My personal feeling is that this being "seated" is a figurative description of those persons, perhaps intended to illustrate the certainty of their reward if they remain faithful. It is described in the past tense to emphasize the certainty of it, as if it were a "done deal," so to speak.
        Regarding Ephesians 2:7 pointing to the future, to me this seems to be discussing the future reward that those persons were being reassured of receiving, and that reassurance is something they as humans had already been given to understand while on earth back there in the first century.
        

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-18 15:17:46

  This is a reply to Anonymous/Kev.
  You cited a number of verses, so I will reply to each one, as Meleti requested. Since you cited so many verses, this will of necessity be a lengthy reply; bear with me.
  ---
  (Philippians 3:20, 21) But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
  Paul says, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens". In my personal case, I am a U.S. citizen, whose capital is in Washington, D.C. That fact does NOT mean I live in Washington, D.C. My citizenship just describes and explains what government I am ruled by, and whose laws I am subject to. My citizenship does not change where I live. In particular, persons from other countries that become U.S. citizens do not (normally) become residents of Washington, D.C., a city with only a finite capacity to house and employ newly arrived persons.
  The heavens are the place where they are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. This statement explains where CHRIST is, where their SAVIOR is. It does not say where THEY will be. It explains THE ORIGIN OF THEIR SALVATION as coming from the heavens, not where they are going.
  ---
  (1 Peter 1:3, 4) "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you".
  Note what sort of promise is being given: "he gave us a new birth to a living hope". What were they hoping FOR? It was for "an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance".
  Think of it this way. Suppose you had a very wealthy relative who lived in another country. You have gotten to know this relative, and he has become very fond of you, so much so that he promised to put you in his will. Let's assume also that your financial circumstances are dire, and so the prospect of receiving this inheritance fills you with hope that you won't have to live out your life in poverty. Your relative made sure that his estate attorney properly drew up the necessary forms so that your inheritance was securely reserved for you and could not be taken away by some legal challenge. He also made sure that his estate's assets were carefully protected so no one could steal them. Those legal protections on your relative's estate were reserved by the laws of the country your relative lived in, not the one you live in. Then, when this relative's estate is settled, you would receive that reward from your relative. But, when you did, you would not need to travel to the foreign country where your relative lived; his estate would simply mail you a check.
  In the same way, the hope and inheritance reserved for Christians that are destined to become king/priests in the Kingdom is a HOPE that is RESERVED in the heavens, but it is a hope that will be received by humans on earth.
  ---
  (Revelation 21:1-7) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son."
  We note here that no one is going to "the holy city, New Jerusalem", but rather, the city comes to us. It says, "the tent of God is with mankind", NOT that 'the tents of mankind are with God'. All those living in such favored times and circumstances will be God's children, a privilege not requiring residency in heaven to obtain. Whether all humans retain that privilege depends on their obedience to God.
  ---
  Consider Ephesians 2:19-22: "Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit."
  The "temple" is the group of persons anointed to be king/priests in the kingdom. That arrangement on earth is the one that God will inhabit by spirit. How does he do that? The Bible doesn't say, exactly. Since these persons will be ruling the earth, and that rulership needs to be a righteous rule from day one, it is reasonable to expect that these persons will be made perfect and righteous instantly, from the moment they begin their rule over the earth. Further, like the priests and prophets of old, it is likely that they will be divinely directly by the holy spirit, in a straight-forward manner as Moses was, "face to face and not by riddles".
  ---
  You mentioned, "I think one of the problems is that when we speak of heaven we tend to think of a specific location somewhere out in the galaxy. Where I think it's just possible that it may mean the spiritual realm that may exist all around us Ephesians 2:2 even while we live on this earth."
  Here is the passage with its context:
  (Ephesians 2:1-7) "Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses-by undeserved kindness you have been saved. 6 Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming systems of things he might demonstrate the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus."
  We are all understandably puzzled by the entire notion of heaven, the spirit realm, and so on. All we know about it is what the Bible reveals - and that isn't much. It does seem to be rather unusual. For example, here is the strange account in Judges about an angel that evidently dematerialized, merged with a fire and disappeared:
  (Judges 6:20-22) "The angel of the true God now said to him: “Take the meat and the unleavened bread and place them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth.” And he did so. 21 Then Jehovah’s angel stretched out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread, and fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Jehovah’s angel then vanished from his sight. 22 Gideon now realized that it was Jehovah’s angel. At once Gideon said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for I have seen Jehovah’s angel face-to-face!”"
  So, how did this angel perform this miraculous feat? We have no idea. He just did. That fact is, we don't know where heaven is. Is it "up" or "down" or "out there"? Does heaven coexist with the material universe as we understand it, or are they separate things, or do their existences overlap? These are all excellent questions, for which I have no clue.
  ---
  So, where is Jesus in all this? You mention two verses:
  (Hebrews 1:13) "But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?"
  (Matthew 28:20) "... And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”"
  Since Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven, yet he said he would be WITH his followers, how can both things be true? The most reasonable explanation is that Christ is WITH his followers 'in spirit'. What does that mean? Just that Christ approves of his followers, watches over them, and supports them as he sees fit. In the first century, that support often involved powerful works of the spirit, which helped validate the new Christian religion in the eyes of onlookers, and also established that the Jewish system of things no longer had God's approval. Once those facts were established, the need for powerful works in that way was over. So, it is not necessary for Christ in heaven to be in the same place as his followers on earth, for him to be WITH them. He is with them, as being united in purpose, without being in the same location.
  ---
  You mention Acts 17:26, 27: "And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us."
  Is God literally "not far off from each one of us"? In truth, His actual, physical location, were it possible to know such a thing, is of no importance. He is perfectly capable of extending His reach and influence anywhere in the universe He sees fit. What matters is whether God is close, or far, from us in a spiritual sense. Are we "close" to being obedient? Are we "close" to His righteous standards? These questions are of vital importance to us. In contrast, the "location of God", even that were possible to know, is of no interest or importance to us at all.
  ---
  Finally, you cited Hebrews regarding the heavenly calling:
  (Hebrews 3:1-6) "Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge-Jesus. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed him, just as Moses also was in all the house of that One. 3 For he is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, since the one who constructs a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful as an attendant in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ was faithful as a son over God’s house. We are His house if, indeed, we hold on firmly to our freeness of speech and the hope of which we boast down to the end."
  As with other cases where this subject is discussed, the CALLING originates from heaven. No where does it say that Christ's brothers will GO to heaven. Rather, Christ's brothers are called by the God of Heaven, to function in a role that is destined for them, to become the temple, or house of God, through their anointing and by the role they will play on earth as the king/priests of God's kingdom. This HOPE of serving in that role is one that they hold on to. But, even though that HOPE originated from heaven, they are not going to heaven to obtain the realization of that hope. They do so here, on earth.

  • Reply by kev on 2015-05-18 15:54:57

    Righty ho then .

Comment by Skye on 2015-05-18 15:02:36

Hi qspf, I would like to take this opportunity to reply to your reply to me earlier! Thank you. There were reason why Jesus' disciples may not have recognised Jesus, eg Mark 9:32. And Jesus would have been trying to reassure them, yes. This does not mean that he was not raised in his glorified human body - we know some of the abilities this body would have given him - walking through walls, altering his appearance etc. If this is the case, then Jesus may well have meant what he said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." Luke 24:38
You say, "This materialized body was NOT the same body or same life that Jesus gave up as a sacrifice, if it were, it would have meant that he was "taking back" that sacrifice ..."
The scriptures say that Jesus was to be resurrected from the dead. He sacrificed his life by pouring out his blood to make atonement for our sins. His shed blood ratified the New Covenant. Luke 22. 2 Cor 5:21 explains that Jesus, who never sinned, took the consequences of sin on our behalf ....." The scriptures go on and on. Jesus achieved all that the scriptures foretold about him. However, there is nothing to indicate or say that being resurrected in his glorified human body would mean that he was taking back that sacrifice. From what I can gather, this appears to be the conclusion that you have reached, but so far I cannot find any scriptural backing for it.

• Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-05-18 22:47:40

  I think that separating heaven and earth is the first mistake,heaven and earth are both parts of Jehovah's creation, the problem is our senses don't extend into the spirit part of it,but its right there next to us in a different dimension, were our senses accute enough it may be a different story and may well be what humans get when the kingdom rules.
  Something I feel is connected to this is what happens when a person dies.
  There are an abundance of verses in the bible that say directly that our spirit goes back to Jehovah.
  My WT teaching puts limits on this ,but reading the bible as it is seems to indicate that the human spirit does go somewhere and not figuratively.
  Are we in fact a spirit being contained in a physical body?
  And our real home is not here but somewhere else?

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-19 00:21:48

  Skye, consider Romans 6:9, which tells that now Christ has been raised from the dead, he dies no more. If these 'materialized' bodies were actually Christ's real body of flesh resurrected, he would have to discard that body when he permanently ascended to heaven, a place incompatible with human life. So, that body would have to die, but the verse says that Christ dies no more. Thus, we are forced to conclude that these bodies were temporary ones, and not his own flesh resurrected.

  • Reply by Skye on 2015-05-19 04:03:01

    qspf, If Jesus was resurrected with a glorified human body, there is nothing in scripture which says that it would be impossible for him to ascend to heaven.
    "Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it." Acts 2:29-32
    Jesus is now in heaven, "The LORD says to my lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Ps 110:1

    • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-19 09:34:50

      Skye,
      Certainly, it was not "impossible for him to ascend to heaven". We have plenty of scriptural evidence that this is what happened. (John 3:13; 6:62; 20:17; Ephesians 4:7-10) But, ascending with a "glorified human body" is not in harmony with the Bible.
      The question really has two parts. First is whether the body Christ appeared with was the same one he died with, and second is whether that body, or any other, could ascend to heaven.
      I must repeat Romans 6:9: "For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him." If Christ had been resurrected with the same body he had, what (if you will, technically speaking) would prevent that body from dying again? Human beings are not indestructible. Even if God protected him, it would not be a physical impossibility for that body to die.
      Further, if Christ returned to the heavens as a spirit, SOMETHING would have had to have been done with that resurrected body. Would it just "disappear" or be "vaporized" or be "disintegrated"? All those things sound a lot like death to me.
      Such things can't be reconciled with 1 Corinthians 15:51: "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." Christ, as the "last Adam", was not resurrected as a man, but as a spirit. Those physical forms he appeared in, just like angels sent by God, materialized in temporary forms suitable to convey messages to mankind, but were never meant to be permanent.
      A major problem with the idea that Christ rose bodily to heaven is the matter of the ransom. Consider:
      ---
      Matthew 20:28: "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many."
      Colossians 1:13 "[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins."
      1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all".
      ---
      So, Jesus gave up his life as a living human soul to ransom mankind. That ransom was paid when he died. Imagine you had been kidnapped, and a kind, wealthy man chose to give away his life savings to pay your ransom. That would be a very generous thing to do. But, suppose that three days after paying that ransom, the man took back his money. Could we still say that this man "paid" anything? At most, he would have lost three days' interest while his money had been removed from the bank, but for a wealthy man that would not have been much of a sacrifice.
      Or consider another illustration: Suppose a valuable possession of yours, say a car, was stolen. But, because you are fully insured, you receive a brand new car three days later, which is identical to the one that was stolen. Have you really "lost" anything? At most, you were slightly inconvenienced while being without a car for three days.
      In like manner, if the same human body Jesus died with was resurrected and restored to him, there was no ransom, and there was no sacrifice. In effect he would have "given" his life and "given" a ransom, only to "take back" that life and sacrifice, hardly "the worse for wear". If that happened, there would no longer be "a corresponding ransom", since Christ would have taken back what he gave.
      ---
      As for the matter of whether Christ could return to heaven in any sort of human body, there is much evidence to refute this.
      We have already mentioned 1 Corinthians 15:5, which says Christ became, not a man again, but "became a life-giving spirit".
      We have the testimony in John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time".
      Then there are the words of God spoken to Moses at Exodus 33:17: "And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “This thing, too, of which you have spoken, I shall do, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.” 18 At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” 19 But he said: “I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.” 20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” "
      From this, if Christ returned to heaven as a man, he would not be able to look upon his Heavenly Father, since no human has ever done that, nor can they.
      Yet we are told, from the verse you cited in Psalms 110:1: "Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”"
      This verse is referenced other places in the Bible, such as at Acts 2:34-36: "34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”"
      So if Christ ascended to heaven in bodily form, and is sitting at God's right hand, he is unable to gaze leftward to look at his Father, since no man can see God. Does seem reasonable to you?
      We must also ask, if Christ really returned to his Father in bodily form, what was he before?
      John 17:5 has Jesus saying, "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was."
      What sort of "glory" did Jesus have BEFORE he came to earth? Jesus here is clearly asking his Father to restore him to the state he had before he came to earth. But if that is so, and Christ returned bodily to heaven after being resurrected, would that not imply that God's Son was human BEFORE he came to earth? Otherwise, how could Jesus be restored to what he was before?
      We must also consider, supposing Christ returned to heaven bodily, how could he live in a such a form? The Bible says that the heavens are for God and similar spirit creatures, but that man and the earth were made for each other. How could he even exist like that? Imagine, where would Christ live? In a "house" in heaven? Where would he get food? Where would he go for a coffee and danish? Where is the bathroom? Would it not be extremely peculiar and disorienting for a human being to live in the heavens under such unusual and unnatural conditions? Christ as a human in the heavens would the only such being like that; he would be alone - even though God said of Adam it was not good for a man to be alone. Can we really believe God would do such a thing to His son? No. This just won't do.
      The scriptural evidence is overwhelming. Christ did not return bodily to heaven. The physical forms he appeared in were temporary materialized bodies, not the human body he died in. We know that these forms were temporary, because sometimes the resurrected Jesus was recognized as himself, and other times people didn't know who he was. Sometimes he appeared with the wounds of the nails he was executed with, and other times he evidently had no wounds or distinguishing marks that set him as out of the ordinary. So, he did not always look the same, leading the conclusion that these were all temporary forms, materialized to suit the purposes of each occasion as the need arose.
      When he ascended to heaven in the view of his disciples, once he was obscured by clouds, that materialized body disappeared, and Christ traveled the remainder of his journey to heaven as a powerful spirit creature.
      

Comment by menrov on 2015-05-19 05:55:20

Good review of the article again. Things from the article that gives me a headache are:
In opening paragraph: Thus, the parable finds its fulfillment in our time and is part
of the sign that Jesus is present and ruling as King.
Since when are parables the same as prophecies??? Will all JW's attending the study and reading the article now believe that parables are to be treated the same way as prophecies? Pfff...
If, as stated in par 2, all parables are prophecies in answer to the question in Mat. 24:3, then what about the thief that is coming n the night (verse 24:43) to rob the owner of the house? When will this happen?
A contradiction? In opening paragraph: "We need to understand
the meaning of this parable, for it affects all true Christians,
whether they have the hope of a heavenly reward or of
an earthly one."
and in par. 3: "The illustrations about the slave the virgins, and the talents are directed to his anointed followers.."
Par 3: He emphasizes that they would have to be loyal and give full support to Jesus’
anointed brothers on earth
Hmmm....scary...full obedience....
Overall, par. 3 is smartly setting all thing straight according to WT doctrine.
Par 4: Our publications have long explained....bla bla...Really, the publications can decide for themselves what to explain or was it the publishers??
Amazing: Jesus reveals his purpose of traveling abroad, namely, “to secure
kingly power for himself.” (Luke 19:12).
This was a parable, about a noble man....no, according to WT it is a prophecy.
Par. 6: Like a good farmer, Jesus would not leave unattended a field.........
Is Jesus now compared to a good farmer or does He represent the good farmers?
Par. 7: Put simply, the talents refer to the responsibility to preach and make disciples.
So, how can one be give 5 talents or, using the above explanation, 5 responsibilities to preach, the other 2 and the other 1?
Footnote to par. 8: After the death of the apostles, Satan fomented
apostasy, which flourished for many centuries. During that time, there were no sustained efforts to fulfill the commission to make genuine disciples of
Christ. But that would all change during “the harvest,” that is, the last days.
Funny, I believe the number of people claiming to be Christian has grown significantly during the centuries since Jesus. In fact, the roots of the WBTS are found in other denominations.
Par. 10: What about in this time of the end when the parable of the talents finds its fulfillment?
Yep, here we go again, the parable is a prophecy. The illustration is a prophecy.
Oh...hold on, it is not a prophecy, according to par. 17, well, at least not all of it: "Jesus spoke of an evil slave who beat his fellow slaves. Jesus was not
there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise"
Hmm..parable is prophecy but not completely,only part of it, that part is then a warning, Probably only the nice parts are a prophecy. So.glad that there is a gb to explain it to us all.because it is sooo confusing. Poor people in Christendom, they do not have any understanding of this......
"In this context, it seems reasonable to conclude that in the illustration of the talents, Jesus was not saying that a large number of his anointed brothers during the last
days would be wicked and sluggish"
Yep, in the context the writers themselves created, it seems reasonable of course.
The Wicked
and Sluggish Slave.
Former explanation:
"The wicked and sluggish slave refers to anointed ones in the 1914 era who refused
to share in the preaching work."
Does this mean that all does that we dumped and removed from the organisation were actually removed and dumped fro completely the wrong reasons? In other words, the actions were based on false understanding and could not have Gods support at all?.

Comment by CP on 2015-05-19 10:56:13

Hello eveerybody,
I just read the article and your comments, and I keep asking to myself why the search for the truth it became so confusing and difficult? If we are Bible readers why we do not know the real meaning of the Scriptures? Where is God's Holly Spirit to guide us to understand the sriptures? What are we doing wrong? What is the truth?

Comment by CP on 2015-05-19 12:32:54

And if God wants all of us to be saved why then so many religions?
Why did the Bible was not written in a simple language easy for everybody to understand and be saved?

• Reply by Skye on 2015-05-19 13:30:39

  Yes, if only people would read the Bible's message as plain statements of fact and accept them as true, imagine the Christian unity that would be achieved.
  The following is taken from a book by a theologian of the last century, J. A. Seiss. He was actually a man who influenced Charles Taze Russell. Although I do not hold with his religious believes of course, there appears to be much wisdom in some of his approach to the scriptures.
  With regard to the Bible, he says: "It's design is to instruct, and in the most familiar way to express to men the mind and will of God. When Christ speaks of the Son of Man He means the Son of Man and not the Roman armies. When He speaks of His coming in the clouds of heaven, He means His Coming in the clouds of heaven, and not the sailing of warships on the Mediterranean, or the marching of soldiers over the earth ...... Christ knew what he wished to say and how to say what he meant; and I feel myself bound to understand Him to mean just what He says."

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-19 14:09:11

  Jesus was asked a similar question by his disciples.
  “. . .So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’” (Mt 13:10-15)

  • Reply by Skye on 2015-05-19 14:37:26

    Their blindness was self-induced because they chose not to listen intelligently to the saving words of Jesus. In Luke 8:15 Jesus spoke of the gospel word falling on some "good and honest" hearts. The choice is ours to understand the Gospel message of salvation which is offered to us all by God.

• Reply by kev on 2015-05-19 14:24:49

  Good comment cp and i was thinking exactly the same thing this morning i do not feel encouraged at all by these disagreements about doctrine .. infact i feel the opposite .. I pray for the spirit and read my bible what more can i do ? Its love our knowledge i supposed to lead to . Love surpasses knowledge . Ephesians 3 v 17 to 19 . Kev . Im saying no more on this thread .

Comment by BN on 2015-05-20 12:19:25

I thought he became a new creation ... and the same goes for the firstborn .. and maybe also for the rest of the creation when they are offered a covenant ...
But when he, the Anointed One present himself one more time, it will not be to take away sin from the many who awaits him. Because when he reveals himself for the second time, it is without taking away sin, but in order to rescue. - Heb 9:28

• Reply by peely on 2015-05-21 11:13:21

  I agree, BN, he firstborn become a new creation just as Christ. They are the spirit sons of God. Rom.8:14; John3:6; 1Pet.1:23 They are set free from slavery to sin and corruption. Rom 8:21
  Heb 3:1 - Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.
  John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
  For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. Rom 6:5
  Notice what Jesus said to Mary, “Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.” John 20:17
  “for I have not yet”…this tells me that he was saying, I’ll meet up with you in heaven later.
  The Bride of Christ is the New Covenant fulfilled –the woman of Rev 12:1, complete with the chosen virgin priests.
  Ps 45:14 - She will be led to the King in embroidered work;
  The virgins, her companions who follow her,
  Will be brought to You.
  2 Cor 11:2 - For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
  These virgin priests are sealed into the Temple, the Holy City, which THEN comes down out of heaven as the Kingdom Covenant bringing life to all mankind who chose it. Rev.21:2-,5; 22:1-,3,17; John5:28,29
  In order for this Bride, the Kingdom Covenant to then come down to the earth, it takes a new creation for the priests to be joined with Christ in this fulfillment. We can't assume that what he has created thus far is the end of God's plan. Ps 115:3; Isa 55:9; Matt 22:29; John 14:12,2
  love,
  peely

Comment by peely on 2015-05-21 09:27:08

Great scripture, kev. I believe that is the key, being “rooted and grounded in love” according to the NASB, and knowing the love of Christ actually SURPASSES knowledge! Is this not the whole basis behind creation? That of love? (I don’t expect you to comment :)
CP – about three years ago when coming out of the organization, I, too was thinking exactly as you. But I was not fully awakened to salvation in Christ. I felt there had to be one road of pure truth amidst all the confusion in beliefs. Like kev, it became a goal to find the hidden treasure of Prov 2:4, as well as the narrow road to life. It was, and is still a daily request of the Father to keep my eyes open to the hidden gems I still need to find.
“For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.” Col 2:1-5
We are surrounded by spiritual confusion that has everything to do with the battle of truth over lies – those persuasive arguments that are at the crux of the battle.
“For I am afraid otherwise that I shall have to do some plain speaking to those of you who will persist in reckoning that our activities are on the purely human level. The truth is that, although of course we lead normal human lives, the battle we are fighting is on the spiritual level. The very weapons we use are not those of human warfare but powerful in God’s warfare for the destruction of the enemy’s strongholds. Our battle is to bring down every deceptive fantasy and every imposing defense that men erect against the true knowledge of God. We even fight to capture every thought until it acknowledges the authority of Christ” 2 Cor 10:2-5
Who created this Babylon of spiritual confusion, but Satan, the Father of the Lie – the Destroyer, the dragon of Revelation. He throws us off the path of life; the knowledge of Christ, this mystery of hidden truth that God has presented us to accept or decline. This confusion is in escalation mode as the New Covenant – the promise of a seed – reaches fulfillment. It is the seed of promise that Satan is determined to take down. Gen 3:15 All that fall for his diversions will go down with him, UNLESS, they tear themselves away from all his cunning ploys and rely EXCLUSIVELY on Christ and YHWH.
In just two chapters of Acts – 15,16 – Paul battles these lies with the help of Holy Spirit. In Macedonia, where the spirit led him, Lydia was listening to Paul’s preaching of the Christ. It is vital to take note that the “Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul”. Acts 16:14
1 Chron 16:10 - Honor His holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek Yahweh rejoice. Ps 105:3
She obviously had the right heart motivation to allow the Lord to bless her with Holy Spirit. This happened also with the jailer who at seeing the miracle of Paul and Silas’s release from the prison, accepted Christ immediately. He then fed and bandaged their wounds rejoicing along with all his household. Acts 16:31-34; Matt 10:42; Matt 25:40
Paul and Silas were jailed on the charge of throwing the city into “confusion” – a Babylon. It was the masters of the slave girl possessed by a demon; Paul removed the spirit, thus ending any money making schemes her masters had demanded her as a fortune teller. Do you see the battle of truth over lies?
In Thessalonica, the Jews were determined to attack Paul and Silas and other believers making the claim, “These men who have upset the WORLD…they stirred up the crowd and the city authorities….” What motivated them was their wicked and jealous hearts.
In Athens, Paul, considered an “idle babbler”, a “proclaimer of strange deities-because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection”, fought against the “babylon” or confusion by bringing down “deceptive fantasy and every imposing defense that men erect against the true knowledge of God” – his own words from 2 Cor 10 This IS the ongoing battle until Satan is destroyed.
I love Paul’s words of this “Sermon on Mars Hill”, and so appropriate for us to take in deeply now.
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—AN IMAGE MADE BY HUMAN DESIGN AND SKILL. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:29-31
Some “sneered” at Paul’s words; others, like many today, put the truth “on hold” and “some joined him and believed”. Each heart’s motivation is determined by where the seed of truth falls within it. Matt, chapter 13.
Satan’s weapons in this battle are all the false religions as well as his earthly fabrications seen in man’s governments….and so much more. His greatest Babylon is where God’s chosen ones have been captured by genuine truth mixed with genuine lies – the organization. Rev 12:15; 8:11 God is now calling out a remnant, just as has happened in the past when God’s people have fallen into captivity. Today, Christ is at the helm. Rev 3:8; 10,11; Luke 21:36; Rev 14:7; 18:4 Satan may have numerous weapons, but we have Holy Spirit which is granted if our heart is inclined to ask.
My son and I were pondering the awesome timeline of creation, and yet how short mankind’s moment has been on this earth. To the Father and Christ, this battle is brief as everlasting life has been placed before us. If we keep full confidence and faith in this promise, we too, will look back at this time of Great Tribulation as light and momentary.
“For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.” 2 Cor 4:17
I don't mean to shout by using caps, just wanted to emphasize....
With love,
peely
http://pearl-satansthrone.blogspot.com/

Comment by trigonometry7 on 2015-05-31 02:55:51

WT 7/15/13
To clarify what is obviously a divisive confusing "new light", they do not abandon the 1919 FDS appointment, they clarify who it is more specifically, in the GB's own self appointment:
“His domestics”: All who are fed, whether they are of the anointed or of the other sheep
“Appointed over his domestics” In 1919, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers to be his faithful and discreet slave
“He will appoint him over all his belongings”: Those who make up the composite slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward. Along with the rest of the 144,000, they will share Christ’s vast heavenly authority
Thus 1919 remains the same, the focus is shifted to the GB ONLY WHEN "they meet together", so by that logic there is an FDS for about 10 minutes a month.
""that slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence.""
(JW Annual Meeting 2012)
""When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”""

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-31 08:07:58

  I believe they meet every Wednesday for a couple of hours, so perhaps there's an FDS for about 10 hours a month, but I take your point. I hadn't thought of it before, but it's a valid point. It just shows how silly things get when men presume to interpret God's word for their own advantage.