[From ws15/03 p. 25 for May 25-31]
“To the extent that you did it to one of the least of
these my brothers, you did it to me.” – Mt 25:40
The parable of the Sheep and the Goats is the theme of this week’s Watchtower Study. The second paragraph states:
“Jehovah’s people have long been intrigued by this illustration…”
One reason for this interest is that this parable is a major part of the “other sheep” doctrine which creates a subordinate class of Christian with an earthly hope. This class must be obedient to the Governing Body if they hope to gain everlasting life.
“The other sheep should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed “brothers” still on earth. (Matt. 25:34-40)” (w12 3/15 p. 20 par. 2)
Before we go deeper into this, let us address one premise that misleads many sincere Jehovah’s Witnesses. The premise is that the “other sheep” Jesus mentions only once in the Bible, at John 10:16, are the same sheep he is referring to at Matthew 25:32. This link has never been established with scriptural proof. It remains an assumption.
We should also bear in mind that what is spoken by our Lord at Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable, an illustration. The purpose of an illustration is to explain or illustrate a truth that is already established. An illustration does not constitute proof. My aunt, an Adventist, once tried to prove the Trinity to me using the three components of an egg—the shell, white, and yoke—as proof. It may seem like a solid argument if one is willing to accept an illustration as proof, but it would be foolish to do so.
What did Jesus and the Bible writers clearly explain without illustrations? Review the following sampling of Scriptures to see that the hope held out to mankind since Christ’s day is for Christians to be called children of God and for them to rule with Christ in the Kingdom of the Heavens. (Mt 5:9; Joh 1:12; Ro 8:1-25; 9:25, 26; Ga 3:26; 4:6, 7; Mt 12:46-50; Col 1:2; 1Co 15:42-49; Re 12:10; Re 20:6)
Ask yourself if it is logical—and more important, in keeping with the love of God—for Jesus to have revealed in specific detail so much about the hope for only 144,000 of his brothers, while couching the hope for millions more in the vague symbolism of parables?[i]
In this article, we are being expected to base our hope of eternal salvation on the interpretation the Governing Body gives to the metaphorical elements in Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Given that, let us examine their interpretation to see if it harmonizes with Scripture and can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.
How Has Our Understanding Been Clarified?
According to paragraph 4, we used to believe (from 1881 onward) that the fulfillment of this parable took place during the thousand year reign of Christ. However, in 1923, “Jehovah helped his people refine their understanding of this illustration.”
The publishers therefore claim that our current understanding is based on a clarification or refinement originating with God. What other refinements were we claiming Jehovah was revealing to his people in 1923? That was the time of the “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” campaign. We were preaching that the end would come in 1925 and that Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in that year. That turned out to be a false doctrine that did not originate with God, but with man—specifically, Judge Rutherford.
It would appear that the only reason we continue to claim that the 1923 understanding of the Sheep and Goats parable is from God is that we haven’t changed it yet.
Paragraph 4 continues:
“The Watch Tower of October 15, 1923…presented sound Scriptural arguments that limited the identity of Christ’s brothers to those who would rule with him in heaven, and it described the sheep as those who hope to live on earth under the rule of Christ’s Kingdom.”
One has to wonder why these “sound Scriptural arguments” are not reproduced in this article. After all, the October 15, 1923 issue of The Watchtower has not been included in the Watchtower Library program, so there is no easy way for the average Jehovah’s Witness to verify this statement unless he or she wishes to flout the direction of the Governing Body and go on the internet to research this.
Not being constrained by this policy, we have obtained the 1923 volume of The Watchtower. On page 309, par. 24, under the subtitle “To Whom Applied”, the article in question states:
“To whom, then, do the symbols sheep and goats apply? We answer: Sheep represent all the peoples of the nations, not spirit-begotten but disposed toward righteousness, who mentally acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Lord and who are looking for and hoping for a better time under his reign. Goats represent all that class who claim to be Christians, but who do not acknowledge Christ as the great Redeemer and King of Mankind, but claim that the present evil order of things on this earth constitutes Christ’s kingdom.”
One would suppose that “sound Scriptural arguments” would include…I don’t know…scriptures? Apparently not. Perhaps this is merely the result of slipshod research and overconfidence. Or perhaps it is indicative of something more disturbing. Whatever the case, there is no excuse for misleading eight million faithful readers by telling them that one’s teaching is based on the Bible when in fact it is not.
Examining the reasoning from the 1923 article, we see that the goats are “Christians” who do not acknowledge Christ as redeemer and king, but believe the present system is Christ’s kingdom.
The Watchtower belief is that this parable does not deal with the judgment of the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17) If so, then the 1923 interpretation—apparently still in vogue—relegates them to some limbo, being neither sheep nor goat. Yet Jesus says that “all the nations” are gathered.
Overlooking that for the moment, we have to ask just who are these Christians to whom the article refers? I’ve spoken to Catholics and Protestants and Baptists and Mormons, and one thing they all have in common is that they acknowledge Jesus as both redeemer and king. As for the canard that all other Christian denominations believe that Christ’s kingdom is found on earth today either in the present system or as a state of mind and heart in the soul of the Christian faithful…well, a simple internet search puts the lie to that belief. (See beginningCatholic.com)
Paragraph 6 states that further “clarifications”, presumably also from Jehovah, arrived in the mid-1990s. That is when the Governing Body refined the understanding of the timing of the judgment to a point just after the tribulation of Matthew 24:29. This was done because of the alleged similarity of wording between Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31, 32. It is unclear what similarity of wording they are referring to, because the only common element is that the Son of man comes. In one, he comes in the clouds; in the other, he sits on his throne. In one, he arrives alone; in the other, he is accompanied by angels. Basing a new understanding on one common element in two passages when there are several others that fail to match up seems to be a dubious methodology.
Paragraph 7 states that, “Today, we have a clear understanding of the illustration of the sheep and the goats.” It then goes on to explain each facet of the illustration, but like the articles before it, it offers no Scriptural proof for its interpretation. Apparently, we must believe we have a clear understanding because that is what we are told. Okay, let’s examine that logic.
How Does the Illustration Emphasize the Preaching Work?
Under this subtitle, we are led to believe that it is the preaching work that identifies the sheep. This means that while all the nations are gathered before Christ, he really is wasting his time looking at all those billions. It would be far more efficient for our Lord to just concentrate on the eight million or so Jehovah’s Witnesses, since only they have any hope of being identified as sheep, since only they are engaged in “the greatest preaching campaign in history.” (par. 16)
This brings us to the crux of the article and the real agenda.
“Therefore, now is the time for those who hope to be judged as sheep to support Christ’s brothers loyally.” (par. 18)
Like many before it, this interpretation is being used to instill a motivation for loyalty to and support of the leaders of the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Specious Reasoning
We must guard ourselves against being deceived by specious reasoning. Our best defensive and offensive weapon is, as it always has been, the Bible.
For example, to convince us that the Bible teaches that the preaching would be done by Christians who are not God’s children, who are not anointed, paragraph 13 refers to John’s vision in Revelation and states that he sees others who are not of the bride class, hence not anointed. Yet, the timing of this part of the vision places it within the time period of the Messianic Kingdom when billions of unrighteous are to be resurrected. The article is suggesting that the Bride is inviting a second group to take life’s water free in our day, the “other sheep”. Yet, the Bride does not exist in our day. It only exists when all Christ’s brothers have been resurrected. We are again taking a metaphor and trying to make it into proof, when in fact there is nothing in the Christian Scriptures that points to a secondary class of Christian in our day drinking life’s water free from the hand of a superclass of Christian.
More specious reasoning is revealed in the inconsistency of the Organization’s doctrinal teaching. Through The Watchtower and other publications, we are taught that the other sheep who survive Armageddon will continue in their imperfect, sinful state and will need to work toward perfection over the course of 1,000 years; then, if they pass the final test after Satan is released, they will get everlasting life. Yet the parable says that these ones depart into everlasting life; no ifs, ands, or buts about it. (Mt 25:46)
The Organization also seems unwilling to apply its own rules when it’s inconvenient. Take the rule of “similarity of wording” used to justify moving the fulfillment to just before Armageddon. Let us now apply it to Matthew 25:34, and 1 Corinthians 15: 50 and Ephesians 1:4.
“Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.” (Mt 25:34)
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” (1Co 15:50)
“as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love.” (Eph 1:4)
Ephesians 1:4 speaks of something chosen before the founding of the world and it is obviously speaking about anointed Christians. 1 Corinthians 15:50 also speaks of anointed Christians inheriting the kingdom of God. Matthew 25:34 uses both these terms which are applied elsewhere to anointed Christians, but the Governing Body would have us ignore that connection—that “similarity of wording”—and accept that Jesus is talking about a different group of people who also inherit the kingdom.
Jesus said:
“He that receives YOU receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth. 41 He that receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and he that receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell YOU truly, he will by no means lose his reward.” – Mt 10:40-42.
Again, notice the similarity of wording. He that gives a disciple only a cup of cold water to drink will get his reward. What reward? Those who received a prophet because he was a prophet got a prophet’s reward. Those who received a righteous man because he was a righteous man got a righteous man’s reward. What was the reward for righteous men and prophets in the time of Jesus? Was it not to inherit the kingdom?
Not Making Too Much of a Parable
It is very easy for someone to make too much of a parable, especially if they have an agenda. The Governing Body’s agenda is to continue to support the fragmenting antitype-based 1934 doctrine of Judge Rutherford that created a laity class among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Since there is no Scriptural proof for this teaching, they have pressed Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats into service in an effort to fabricate Scriptural evidence.
As we have already stated, a parable or an illustration is not proof of anything. Its sole purpose is to illustrate a truth that is already established. If we are to have any hope of understanding Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we have to drop our preconceptions and agendas, and instead search for the core truth he was trying to explain.
Let’s start with this: What is the parable about? It starts off with a king sitting on his throne to judge all the nations. So it is about judgment. Very well. What else? Well, the rest of the parable lists the criteria upon which the nations are judged. Okay, what is the criteria?
It all comes down to whether the ones being judged,
- gave food to the hungry;
- gave water to the thirsty;
- showed hospitality to a stranger;
- clothed the naked;
- cared for the sick;
- comforted those in prison.
The organization looks at these six items through its agenda-colored glasses and cries: “It’s all about the preaching!”
If you were to describe all these actions with a single phrase or word, what would it be? Are they not all acts of mercy? So the parable is about judgment and the criteria for favorable or unfavorable judgment are whether or not the individual displayed mercy to Christ’s brothers.
How are judgment and mercy related? We probably will call to mind James’ words on the matter.
“For the one who does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment.” (James 2:13 NWT Reference Bible)
To this point, we can deduce that Jesus is telling us that if we want to be favorably judged, we must perform acts of mercy.
Is there more?
Yes, because he specifically mentions his brothers. The mercy is performed to them, and through them it is performed to Jesus. Does this exclude the sheep from being Jesus’ brothers? Let us not be quick to arrive at that conclusion. We have to remember that when James wrote about mercy triumphing over judgment he was writing to his brothers, fellow Christians. The sheep and the goats all know Jesus. They both ask, “When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?”
The parable was given to his disciples for their benefit. It teaches that even if one is a Christian and considers himself a brother of Christ, it matters not. What matters—what he is judged on—is how he treats his brothers. If he fails to show mercy to his fellow brothers when he sees them suffering, then his judgment will be adverse. He may think that his service to Christ, his zeal in the ministry, his donations to the building work, all guarantee his salvation; but he deludes himself.
James says,
“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.” (Jas 2:14-17)
His words parallel those of Jesus’ parable. Jesus says that if we, although thinking ourselves to be his brother, do not show mercy to “the least of these, my brothers”, then we are going to find Jesus judging us with the same lack of mercy we displayed. There is no basis for a favorable judgment without mercy, for we are all good-for-nothing slaves.
Can His Brothers Also Be Sheep or Goats?
In Western society, we are very binary in our approach to things. We like things to be black or white. The Oriental mindset of Jesus’ day was different. A person or object or concept could be one thing from one point of view, and another from a different point of view. This vagueness tends to make us Westerners uneasy, but if we are to understand Jesus’ words about the Sheep and Goats, I submit that we should give this some thought.
Our understanding can be enhanced by considering the 18th chapter of Matthew. The chapter opens with the words:
“In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: ‘Who really is greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens?'”
The rest of the chapter is a discourse Jesus has with his disciples. It is crucial that we understand who is audience was. To further convince us that this is a single instruction session spoken to his disciples, the opening words of the next chapter state: “When Jesus had finished speaking these things, he departed from Galʹi·lee and came to the borders of Ju·deʹa across the Jordan.” (Mt 19:1)
So what does he say to his disciples that is germane to our discussion of the Sheep and Goats parable?
Mt 18:2-6: He tells his disciples that to be great they must be humble, and that any one of them that stumbles a brother—a little one; Jesus uses a young child to enforce his point—will die for all time.
Mt 18:7-10: He warns his disciples against becoming causes for stumbling and then tells them that if they despise a little one—a fellow brother—they will end up in Gehenna.
Mt 18:12-14: His disciples are told how to care for one of his brothers who strays and becomes lost.
Mt 18:21, 22: A principle to govern forgiving one’s brother.
Mt 18:23-35: A parable showing how forgiveness is related to mercy.
Here is what all of this has in common with the parable of the Sheep and Goats.
That parable is about judgment and mercy. It has three groups in it: Christ’s brothers, the Sheep and the Goats. There are two outcomes: everlasting life or eternal destruction.
All of Matthew 18 is addressing the brothers of Christ. Yet, he differentiates between little ones and causes for stumbling. Anyone can be a little one; anyone can become a cause for stumbling.
Vs 2-6 speak against pride. A proud man tends not to be merciful, while the humble one does.
Vs 7-10 condemns brothers who despise other brothers. If you despise your brother you will not help him in a time of need. You will not act mercifully. Jesus says that despising a brother means eternal destruction.
Vs 12-14 speaks of the act of mercy which consists of leaving the 99 sheep (one’s brothers who are safe and sound) and performing a merciful act of rescue for a lost brother.
Vs 21-35 show how mercy and forgiveness are intertwined and how by showing forgiveness to a brother through an act of mercy, we will have our debt to God forgiven and gain everlasting life. We also see how acting without mercy toward a brother results in our getting eternal destruction.
So Jesus is saying in Matthew 18 that if his brothers act toward one another mercifully, they get the reward extended to the Sheep and if they act toward one another without mercy, they get the punishment meted out to the Goats.
To put this in a different perspective: The Brothers in the parable are all Christians, or brothers of Christ, prior to judgment. The Sheep and the Goats are these same ones after judgment. Each is judged based on what he did to his fellow brothers prior to Jesus’ arrival.
Judgment on the House of God
If the organization is right about the timing of the illustration—and in this case I believe they are—then this would be the first judgment Jesus performs.
“For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?” (1Pe 4:17)
Jesus judges the house of God first. That judgment was already underway in Paul’s day. That makes sense, because Jesus does not only judge the living, but the dead.
“But these people will render an account to the one ready to judge those living and those dead.” (1Pe 4:5)
So Jesus judged Christians from the first century down to our day when he sits on his throne. This judgment is not about living on earth, but about inheriting the kingdom. It is the first judgment.
All the rest are judged in the future, during or at the end of the 1,000 year period when the world of unrighteous mankind is judged.
A Disclaimer
I do not presume to have the absolute truth on this matter, nor am I expecting anyone to accept this understanding because I say so. (I’ve already had a lifetime of that, thank you very much.) We must always reason for ourselves based on the evidence presented and arrive at our own understanding, for we are all judged individually, not on the basis of the teachings of others.
Nevertheless, we all bring some baggage to these discussions in the form of personal bias or organizational indoctrination. For example:
If you believe that all Christians are Jesus’ brothers, or at least have the potential to be—a fact supported in Scripture—and that the sheep are not his brothers, then the sheep and goats must come from the non-Christian part of the world. If, on the other hand, you are a Jehovah’s Witnesses, you believe that only 144,000 Christians are anointed. You therefore believe you have the basis for considering that all other Christians make up the sheep and goats. The problem with that take on the parable is that it is founded on the false premise that the other sheep are a secondary class of Christian. This is unscriptural as we’ve proven repeatedly in the pages of this forum. (See the category “Other Sheep“.)
Still, the parable does seem to refer to two groups: One that is not judged, his brothers; and one that is, people of all the nations.
Here are a few more facts to help us reconcile these two elements with one another. The sheep are judged. The goats are judged. The basis for that judgment is specified. Do we imagine that Jesus brothers are not judged? Of course not. Are they judged on a different basis? Is mercy not a factor in their judgment? Again, of course not. So they could be included in the parable’s application. Jesus could be referring to the basis for judgment upon the individual, based on his actions toward the collective.
For instance, when I am judged, it will not matter to which or to how many of Jesus’ brothers I have shown mercy, only that I have. Nor will it matter that I might consider myself to be one of Jesus’ brothers at the time of judgment. After all, it is Jesus who determines who his brothers are.
The Wheat and the Weeds Parable
There is another factor which should weigh in to the discussion. No parable exists in isolation. All are part of the tapestry that is Christianity. The parables of the Minas and the Talents are closely related. Likewise, the parables of the Sheep and Goats and the Wheat and Weeds. Both relate to the same period of judgment. Jesus said that we are either with him or against him. (Mt 12:30) There is no third category in the Christian congregation. We would not imagine that the goats are a distinct class from the weeds, would we? That there is a judgment that condemns the weeds and another judgment that condemns another group that are goats?
In the Wheat and Weeds parable, Jesus doesn’t stipulate the basis for judgment, only that the angels are involved in the separating work. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats, the angels are also involved but this time we have the basis for judgment spelled out. The goats are destroyed, the weeds are burned. The sheep inherit the kingdom, the wheat is gathered into the kingdom.
Both the Sheep and Goats and the Wheat and Weeds are identified at the same time, at the end.
In any Christian congregation, we cannot be sure who the wheat are and who are weeds, nor can we know who will be judged as sheep and who as goats. We are speaking in an absolute, final-judgment sense here. However, if our heart is loyal to the Lord, we are naturally drawn to those doing the will of the Lord, those striving to be wheat—brothers of Christ. These ones will be there for us in times of trouble, even at great risk to themselves. If we reflect such courage and give of ourselves when the occasion arises to perform an act of mercy (i.e., alleviate the suffering of another), then we may well have our judgment with mercy. What a triumph that will be!
In Summation
What can we be certain of?
Whatever your personal understanding, it seems beyond question that the truth Jesus is illustrating in this parable is that if we want to be judged worthy of everlasting life, we have to abound in acts of mercy toward those who are his brothers. If we are sure of nothing else, this understanding will lead us to salvation.
The Governing Body misappropriates the application of this parable to support their own agenda. They get us to disregard life-saving acts of mercy in favor of helping them spread their particular brand of Christianity and helping to grow their Organization. They also use this parable to reinforce the idea that by serving them and obeying them, our salvation is assured.
By this they do a gross disservice to the flock they presume to care for. Nevertheless, the one true shepherd is coming. He is the judge of all the earth. Therefore, let us all abound in acts of mercy, for “mercy exalts triumphantly over judgment.”
_____________________________________________
[i] While the number 144,000 is almost certainly symbolic, the teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that it is literal and so this line of reasoning is based on that supposition.
[…] out angrily when I tried to explain how the Governing Body wrongly teach that following them is the way to salvation. Ad hominem is a common way for JWs to avoid reasoning; attack the person, not the problem. I […]
it been a week since I read this and I did not think much…sure they included the preaching angle and then I read the. march 15 2012 watchtower and I got really really upset… With this ststement The other sheep should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed “brothers” still on earth. What..now i know to love your fellow man and brothers all who do gods will is my brother Jesus said this….. And to put our Faith and love Jesus to Jehovah I guess this means a lot but we need to. Active… Read more »
Thank you Meleti, You are ever so right: Bible truth will always win out. (Isaiah 1:4) 4 Woe to the sinful nation, the people heavy with error, an evildoing seed, ruinous sons! They have left Jehovah, they have treated the Holy One of Israel with disrespect, they have turned backwards. . .NWT. Ezekiel 16 fully confirms Israel’s sinfulness. Isaiah 53 was all about that sinful nation and their rescuer Son of man, sheep and redeemer. Not opining here. In the type, the sheep dies in place of Abraham’s only-begotten, as in solely-begotten, -son; Abraham being the only viable procreative human in that relationship,… Read more »
And not a moment too soon. 🙂
After journeying to discussthetruth.com and posting a couple of comments, it seems to be a rarely visited site now, while perhaps earlier not so.
One way to put me out to pasture? 😉
Dieter G
Not so. It averages as many posts per day as we do comments. Of course, views are significantly higher than posts/comments on either site as most readers prefer not to comment. Readership is growing steadily on both sites as more and more brothers and sisters are waking up to the reality of what the Organization is becoming and are looking for a place where they can freely and safely discuss God’s word.
Anyway, I thought you were going to post a new topic to discuss the issues you had raised here? If you do, let us know.
Like to make one final comment, On quoting learned authorities: Really love to use and quote other scholastic sources and/or authorities to back up my statements. It is unfortunate, however, that one way or another are all subject to the trend imposed upon them by the early apostate amalgam of church and state that developed out of the original members of the pure virginal Bride of Christ when their groom failed to show to take them home as expected. Disappointment lead elders and other leading figures in the early church/congregation to compromise with Rome to maintain their own positional advantage… Read more »
Hi Dieter, You’ve backed up some of what you’ve claimed here with Scriptural support. Thank you for that. However, you’ve also made many claims that are just pure human opinion. Our readers will not take you seriously if you do that. Also, the comments section here is intended to hose comments on the article under consideration so as to help our readers enhance their understanding. Even a contrary point of view or aa comment questioning an articles premise can be beneficial. However, new topics, extensive treatises, or promotion of other web sites is not considered good form. Still, we do… Read more »
Meleti, you bring together Matt 25:34 and Eph 1:4 but you seem to place no importance on the slight difference in wording: the Kingdom for the sheep is prepared FROM the founding of the world while the kingdom for the anointed is prepared BEFORE the founding of the world? Why the difference? Or do you think this is of little consequence?
Yes, I do. The founding of the world was the point of conception of the first man, for world (cosmos) refers to the world of humankind. The kingdom could not have been prepared until after the original sin since there was no need for a process for the salvation of humankind before humans needed it. So the period in question goes from the original sin to the conception of Cain. This is an extremely brief period of time in the historical scheme of things, so “before” and “from” are synonymous for all intents and purposes of this discussion.
Sorry dear friend Meleti, The founding of the world (Strong’s Gr. 2889) is NOT the world of Mankind. That is reserved for the world Strong’s 3625 the entire inhabited earth deceived by Satan as per Revelation 12:9. Cosmos on the other hand refers only to the world of Israel -def 1: as the only organised arrangement and government ever founded by Jehovah and -def 2: a ornament, decoration, adornment in the manner of what wives are to their husbands, since Israel was God’s wife -like it or loathe it. True, Cosmos has had modern definitions assumed, real and misunderstood by… Read more »
Dieter, I’m gratified that you think of me as a dear friend, but really, referring to me as brother or Meleti will suffice. I have edited out all the references to your web site because a self-referencing authority is no authority at all, save when the authority is Jesus Christ, of course. We have to stay within our site guidelines of “Striving for Unbiased Bible Research”. If you can show by outside accredited references — or even better, by using the most valid reference of all, the Bible — that Strong’s Gr. 2889 cannot refer to the world of mankind,… Read more »
I havent looked at this for a while in my strongs greek lexicon . But i seem to recall that the founding of the world In this case . Is the founding ( katabole ) throwing down of seed . Which i percieve may mean the procreation of humankind . Kev i need to check that Again though . So i tend to agree meleti .
Hello again Meleti somewhat late because there are other more pressing needs. About ‘trendy’ and associated unacceptable language. Jehovah, you know the one who holds the position of chief arbiter of what is or ought to be acceptable language in bible matters, never criticized Jesus for his words in Matthew 23 where he REALLY had a go at the leaders of Israel, who were still acting in behalf of Jehovah, the one who had originally appointed them, however wayward they may have become. All good prostitutes will present themselves at their most beautiful in looks, language and finery. Israel was… Read more »
If the founding of the world was the point of conception of Adam, then why does Paul say they were chosen IN UNION with Christ BEFORE the founding of the world? What was the point of choosing them as the future seed if Adam had not yet been created?
Adam wasn’t conceived. He was created. The first man conceived was Cain.
Hi, Too many currents to wade through or web-strands to brush away from the face of clear perception In all the above. Too much information. Too many words wearisome to the flesh – Even the alleged symbolic nature of the 144000 was injected into the above main article; an entirely separate subject needing its own explanatory space. Just because Jehovah’s Witnesses have made profound mistakes, does not mean that EVERYTHING they have discovered and reasoned on, including the literalness of 144000, is false and deceptive, designed to mislead. The motives of the leading brothers need not continually be questioned, while… Read more »
Just had this WT study today at the KH. It is amazing the range of emotion such farcical/convoluted explanations evoke. If I were on my own I would probably not attend meetings such as these or feel the need to stay. It is difficult trying to find a mental perspective that would allow me to sit through nonsense like this as an unattached observer.
On a different note, I saw some interesting non-commenting from a few elders that would normally be right in the conversation.
Bobcat
Hi bob, good morning. Its either they are being bothered by their conscience that made them uncomfortable even by raising their hands to comment, or their minds are in such disarray and could not grasp the new light or progressive light.
I also noticed the silence by most of the Elders in my congregation also. I commented that Christ brothers have to show mercy to one another and could themselves become goats for not doing so. That was the main quality of the six things Jesus mentioned would be done to him, how an anointed brother or sister treated their fellow anointed brothers. I also stated that Jesus quoted his Father as saying, “I want mercy, not sacrifice.” The WT Study Conductor countered by saying, “That’s why we have to turn in our field service time”. Yeah, it’s all about time.… Read more »
Imagine a student (Joe) who asked his classmate Mark, “Can you teach me Math, Calculus in particular? I am poor in Math.” Mark responded: “OK, this Calculus subject sucks. Honestly, these formulas aren’t clear to me as well. But since I am eager to help, I will help you to be enlightened. How could Joe, also a poor student in Math, have the guts to teach Mark when he himself is not sure about the topic, when he is confused about it? In a similar vein, why the WT writers interpreted with impunity about the sheep and the goat in… Read more »
Meleti Vivlon thank you so much for your work on this website. I’ve really enjoyed your insight and all of the relating comments. So glad I stumbled upon this site, it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for.
I love this site , a lot of great knowledge here. As I was read this week watchtower a few months ago.. The whole march 15. Watchtower is like the witnesses excuse me the Governing Body.. Excuse me the faithful and discreet slave coming correct or at least writing “YUP WE WROTE SOME WEIRD STUFF IN THE PAST”. But as the same time they were addressing some / I say some of there mistakes theyn then begin some new ones. And this on this article they take the ending of the illustration of the sheep and the goats and Now… Read more »
Here’s a post a friend left on Facebook regarding this WT article; ——————————————————– “This week’s WatchTower discusses the parable of the Shepard separating the sheep from the goats. I found it interesting that you can be judged as a sheep if you loyally support Christ’s brothers, but if you don’t support his brothers by helping them in the best of our own ability; you can be judged as a goat. Interesting huh? I personally would like to be judged as a sheep because I do try my best to support the Kingdom arrangement. ” And here are some follow up… Read more »
Sorry i meant in the other the ones who give it out . Im confused ……..?????? Kev
Hi Kev
I agree with what you say.I think The “faithful slave”, “virgins”, ” sheep and goats” etc are all parables within a prophetic timetable.They simply show us various ways to be prepared and ready.Not to Lord it over our fellow slaves.To be alert.To look after those in need.
I think my last comment was not well thought out.Sorry.
Mark .i read the comment and thought it was quite an interesting take on it . And i can understand why you said the judgement seems consistant with the 1000 year reign .after all it does say that the nations will be gathered before christ . Sorry mark . I didnt mean to contradict you . I think mainly the parables portray just simple christian message . Almost like the simple morals in aesops fables .im not so sure we can look beyond the basic message . . the main message is about loving one another . . Nice to… Read more »
Thanks Kev.
To my mind the parable of the faithful and discreet slave and the parable of the sheep and goats make the same point . The least of the brothers = the domestics ………. i was hungry and you gave me something to eat = giving the domestics food at the proper time ……. the master on arrival = the son of man arriving in all his glory ……….. appointing over belongings = inherit the kingdom prepared for you ……. In watchtower land the GB are the least of the brothers recieving the food (sheep and goats) and in the other… Read more »
Meleti Vivlon, I appreciated this article. Thank you very much for sharing your insights.
Thank you, and welcome to the forum!
But when they (GB) are gone, what then? Any way back for the Israelites? This is the time for decisions, this is the time when families will be torn apart . This is the time when we decide whom we love most…. who we decide to follow … Maybe there will be a short time to escape between the harlots fall and the beast’s, but are we willing to take that risk when we know what’s going on? Jesus wants us to flee, i even know somebody he has led out himself ! I know that this sounds crazy for… Read more »
BN you said, “So he got his assignment .. not a suprising one.. He has always gone on and on about love and the lack of it inside…” Yes, there IS a lack of love “inside”; the beast you mention – the wild beast – is also the man of lawlessness or the man of sin. If God’s law is love, the organization has certainly “missed the mark” when it comes to practicing the law of love. “Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they… Read more »
The parable of the sheep and the goats seems to be consistent with the judgment of the nations during the thousand years reign.They (the nations) are judged by their deeds, “what they did to the least of Christs brothers”. Christians are not judged, because they recognised their sinful dilemma. They repented and put total trust in Gods Son, so are saved by faith apart from works(deeds).Actually wether this takes place at the end of this age or the next I,m not sure. As so many on Beroean Pickets Have pointed out, this causes a huge contradiction for the watchtowers so… Read more »
As you may be aware, many persons have pointed out that the most likely meaning of the “other sheep” class that Jesus spoke is, not those with an earthly/non-kingship role, but the Gentiles that would be added to the Christian congregation starting around 36 CE. As with so many other mis-directions from the WT, once you accept that they are not God’s organization, are not led or directed by the spirit, and are not teaching the truth, many if not all of these contradictions disappear.
The other sheep are certainly the gentiles.I’m not sure Jesus is simply judging gentile believers.
Obey, obey, obey, preach, preach, preach!!! I am so sick of these superfine apostles that I’m finding it so hard to go on. They have my wife trapped & myself by extension. The Bible is making it so clear to me to reject these filthy apostates & follow Christ in truth but how can I do that when they have my wife hostage… Sorry for sounding like I’m complaining but I just don’t see a way out without losing my marriage as the only way to obey Christ is to reject this cult
Hang in there, Ray B. I think that the signs are there that they are moving on a path that will prove both self-revealing and self-destructive. Already many are perturbed the “we don’t solicit funds” fund solicitation of the May broadcast. Sincere ones are waking up. It is only a matter of time, and I hope it will be quick in coming.
So sorry for the nasty tone of my comment. I wrote it earlier today when I was feeling irritable & frustrated. I was thinking about it during the day at work & I feel now that I allowed anger to affect my words rather than show a “seasoned with salt” loving attitude. I hope my comment doesn’t offend anyone especially that I used the words filthy apostates referring to the GB & cult referring to the organisation. Please feel free to delete my comment Meleti if you feel it is inappropriate
Not to worry. We all need to vent from time to time and it wasn’t beyond the pale, so to speak. Besides there are far too many similarities between the organization and the way that cults are defined to dismiss outright that idea that we are cult-like. I found a point by point comparison between what psychologists have identified as marker characteristics of cults and what we practice as witnesses to be very disturbing. It bears further examination, but time is limited at present. In any case, I appreciate your desire to season your words with salt. Don’t think that… Read more »
yeah ray . Its tough when you know whats right its frustrating , but with patience you may get your wish in the end . Loving our wives and children is the most important thing christ wants from us i think . Sometimes in these situations we may have to go through the mill a bit . . think of what christ himself went through for the congregation . Ephesians 5 gods blessing to you ray . Kev
Heres another point as well . Regarding the works of mercy to christs brothers and why we get it wrong sometimes .about 15 years my dear sister developed a brain tumor she was living by herself .and needed encouragement from time to time in my busy schedule i used to pop around to lift her spirits ask if she needed anything . . Good works you may say . Remember i was sick and you came to see me . !! What do we do though when the watchtower made a rule that no man should be alone with another… Read more »
As has been said jesus clearly identified those who do the will of god as his brothers and sisters ask any witness what gods will is and they will say he wants us to preach a thing that 99 percent of witnesses do . Yet the vast majority are denied the idenification as christs brothers . Well here we go 1+1=0 as well then .!! Kev
For the longest time, I wondered who Christ’s brothers were and also couldn’t help but notice Jesus’ words ” these my brothers” which suggests that he is pointing to them as he pronounces judgment.The other day it dawned on me. When Jesus returns, he gathers his chosen ones from the four winds of the earth and THEN proceeds with the judging of the sheep and goats. To me, this seems to indicate that he gathers his “brothers” who happen to be “anyone who is doing the will of his father”. Then afterward, he gathers the “nations”. Note that he uses… Read more »
You raise an alternate explanation to what is suggested in the article. As I said toward the end, we cannot know for sure how the fulfillment will work out. The nations are used throughout the Christian Scriptures to refer to non-Israelites, but not exclusively. Also, use of “the nations” doesn’t mean every last man, woman and child. Often it refers to cultural diversity. “Indeed, in his name nations will hope.”” (Mt 12:21) “. . .Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, for you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you,… Read more »
The comments regarding the applicability of the law to Christianity, while interesting, have moved from the area of simple (albeit insightful) commenting to that of open debate. To this end I’ve removed the last couple of comments and ask that all participants make use of the Discuss the Truth Forum (www.discussthetruth.com) which was set up to provide our members and readership with a proper venue to delve into such research.
here’s where I FIND the problem in using this particular scripture as it appears to fall under this same flaw to me ..in how we look at it .. An English professor wrote on the board: A woman without her man is nothing. The class was then asked to punctuate the sentence. The men wrote: “A woman, without her man, is nothing.” The women wrote: “A woman: without her, man is nothing.” I see the real possibility this verse could read another way Since in chapter 24 he is talking to “his disciples” Matthew 25:40English Standard Version (ESV) 40 And… Read more »
We were all meant to show love to everyone ..
but what was the ‘problem’ with those who was going to inherit the kingdom?
And who are the least of them?
Could it be in the same manner as they werd talking about who was the greatest?
And that they could evolve to ‘lord it over’ eachother?
Have anybody seen this happening?
I would agree BN that that is surely a contextual application for that among “the brothers and sisters” , but the larger application of inheriting the kingdom would be that those who inherit it will be teaching the the nations and their “rule” would be the application of mercy , care in every sort of way that can be given , to relieve the sick , to feed and cloth etc , to mend the souls , to comfort the broken …to be able to serve in every capacity that has need …one 1st learns those traits and is clothed… Read more »
The problem with the WT interpretation stemming from the two-class system is this: With only ~14,000 of the 144,000 alive today, it would be nearly impossible to “do good” to these. There would be only one anointed for every 9 or 10 congregations. The fact is that most JWs do not personally know anyone who is anointed other than the seven named members of the Governing Body. They may know OF someone, perhaps in another congregation, who partakes. But, logistically, most would have no opportunity to “do good” to these in the manner that Christ lays out in the parable.… Read more »
Hi LQ, I wondered the same when leaving the organization. I had such a huge desire to find out where and who these anointed are. Why was their presence obscured? How could I seek out those “priests” or messengers who may hold undefiled truth? How could I show kindness to these “little ones” and follow their faithful example? “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty.” Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9 The GB messenger “priests” have, with no doubt, profaned God’s spiritual… Read more »
I like to compare it to the situation where, say I am accused by my employer of being disloyal or dishonest to HIS employees. At the time that I am being accused, I am still one of HIS employees. Same as in the parable. One is judged and referenced against the group. The main problem with WBTS doctrines and probably various other denominations is that their doctrines are based on the assumption that eternal life depend on your actions. They teach it is grace that eternal life is given to you after your life. Although they say they do not… Read more »
Something I feel should be included in “truth book” are some of the comments made on this site or at least thoughts and observations gleaned from it.Without being presumtuous or without desire for controversy, I believe that many of the comments are inspired of Holy Spirit,not the calibre of the bible, but still of that origin and supportive of true biblical doctrines, after all the bible is communications made to servants of God,what’s changed? That’s what we are doing here.
I couldnt agree more. Although I enjoy Meleti’s commentaries, I have gleaned so much from all the comments here on this website and the discussion board. The answers to so many doctrinal dilemmas have always been right there in the scriptures, and most of us long timers can quote them verbatim, however each and every one of us take these stored “jewels” in our head and bring forth that piece of the puzzle that provides enlightenment. It is truly amazing to see holy spirit at work, isnt it, Meleti?
It most assuredly is, life2come.
I agree. There is a wealth of information to be gleaned from the thousands of comments. It will take time to review them all, but we don’t want to miss anything of value. We will be looking for help in that task.
With the solid food being masticated here, I have a feeling the Christ and the holy spirit are working behind the illuminations in this site.
Thank you Meleti for this article,I have pondered over this helping Christs brothers idea knowing the application was faulty just couldn’t say why. It hit me as I read your post how the expression “Christs Brothers” has actually become a religious title with its own doctrinal paraphernalia , and this WT article is nothing more than an attempt to bolster that view. I like the way you unravel it all, and once again it seems that where it all starts is from a wrong or presumed premise, things which one is not taught to examine as a JW, thanx again… Read more »
Thanks and regarding the “truth book”, we are going to be making an announcement soon regarding the planned expansion we surveyed everyone about a few months back. Stay tuned. 🙂
WT articles often quoted and applied James’ words “faith without works is dead” primarily to the PREACHING work although one only has to read the context to see it dealt with more practical matters just like Matthew 25.
Who are Christ’s brothers in the parable? The GB tells us it’s them. In Matthew 12:48-50 Jesus says: “…who are my brothers?…whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother…”
Excellent! Iron sharpens Iron. Love this website.
Thanks for sharing these verses. Simple but it defines the word brother for Jesus our Lord, our King. 🙂
Link to 1923 Watchtower Bound Volume
http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/archive/en/Watchtower/w1923_E.pdf
Thanks for that link.
I noticed a few things.
1. The reinterpretation of this Parable does away with why the millennium is necessary. If we are judged before the millennium then what’s the millennium for?
2. Most people don’t know who the remnant of the 144,000 are so how can you judge them based on that?
3. Did the forget that the judgement is a 1000 years.
4. Where is the 1000 trial?
Cat Russell stated in his interpretation of this that
CT Russell taught that this process is 1000 years and is not instantly
5. Where is the “death acquits of of our sins”
thanks for the evaluation of the parables i have come to just about the same conclusions . Paragraph 9 in the article gets me . ( just as jesus is not speaking of seperating literal sheep and goats . He is not speaking of literal works like feeding visiting sick ones or ones in prison ) ect or something like that . What a lame argument . as far as i can see the only connection i can see with preaching in these verses is the fact that many of the travelling evangelisers found themselves in these sort of situations… Read more »
Thanks for your detailed reply, Meleti, much of which I obviously agree with; however, do you think that people today, what with the internet in most places even of the third world now and spreading, might have adequate, or rather, unprecedented access to truth, for the treatment of which they are actually one day soon accountable? Or would you think God unrighteous if He judged them adversely? And what if somewhat short of 7 billion people should turn against the small number of true Christians in the near future, as clearly indicated by scripture to take place just before the… Read more »
Let me ask you this. Did everyone who listened to Jesus and saw his miracles and did not become a Christian die the second death? Did the millions who saw the miracles performed by the apostles and other Christians prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and did not convert die the second death? Would the million-plus inhabitants of Jerusalem who did not flee with the Christians despite the decades-long warning the Christians preached about the city’s destruction also be denied a second chance?
Well, Jesus asked those professing to be religiously knowledgeable in His day how they intended to escape from Gehenna, which implies that if they were not to repent and accept Him in their life time, that this would be the place destined for them. The fact that the sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven during the next age would not preclude them from being raised then to face their judgment, though the verdict is already known. If people of Sodom will condemn those from Chorazin, and those from Sodom would be judged worthy of death, how much harsher… Read more »
The key phrase is “religiously knowledgeable”. Pointing to those people creates a straw man argument which doesn’t prove your point at all. Your argument is that modern technology gives everyone on earth adequate opportunity to discover the truth and put faith in Jesus. Therefore, if they fail to take advantage of this opportunity, the fault is their own and Jehovah would be justified in condemning them to eternal death. From what you have said here, I take it you believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that those of Sodom will be resurrected only to be killed again. If so, and… Read more »
That promises to be an interesting discussion, and I look forward to chatting with you there, thanks Meleti.
Hi Meleti, Thank you for your research. If I may, I’d like to suggest another line of reasoning in addition to your own: The parable of the sheep and the goats actually places four people, or groups of people, in view; namely, the Son of Man, the angels, the sheep, and the goats. The latter two groups are said to exhaust the judgement of the nations (PANTA TA EQNH). Since Christ refers to his brothers with the demonstrative “these” (TOUTWN), then it would seem that such ones must also be in view. Accordingly, since these brothers cannot be the Son… Read more »
I appreciate your sharing that with us and by the way, good alias/name choice.
Hello Vox, nice that you noted the revealing term ‘these’ spoken by Jesus in the judgment of the nations scenario in Math.25, but I beg to differ with your conclusion as to who they are, because Jesus uses the words ‘…ALL the angels with Him,’ which phrase interestingly also appears in a few other scriptures [feel free to research the details] dealing with the judgment of the 7 billion people who presently constitute ‘ALL the nations,’ and it is particularly noteworthy that the phrase ‘ ALL the holy ones being with Him’ appears in this scenario in Zechariah, which would… Read more »
If I might add my two-cents worth, given that this touches on statements I’ve made in the article.
First of all, if you are going to base an argument on supporting scriptures, please don’t leave it to the rest of us to find them. Please provide the Scriptural references for all to view.
Bible Students/Jehovah’s Witnesses have gotten themselves into trouble since Russell’s day trying to fix the exact timing of prophetic fulfillments. The parable of the Sheep and Goats could very possibly be the judgment of the firstfruits. I do not see how we can discount that possibility categorically.
Ok, just a question then, or to obviate a constant ‘to an fro’ exchange, please permit me a few questions: Will there be a day of judgment for the nations [the whole world population] when Christ returns, and if so, where else, if not in Math.25, can we read about it? Would people who are truly annointed [i.e. of the firstfuits] really not be concerned about people who are suffering hunger, are thirsty and unrighteously subjected to other indignities, and offer their help to such ones in their hour of need, such as the goats are reported to have been?… Read more »
>>Will there be a day of judgment for the nations [the whole world population] when Christ returns That is an excellent question and one which deserved more of an answer than I can provide here. I have an article planned on this topic. So permit me only to provide what I believe to be the case, but allow me time to provide a scripturally backed answer in the near future. In short, I do not believe the judgment of the whole world population occurs prior to Armageddon. I believe that occurs during the 1,000 year long day of judgment. The… Read more »
Hi Just a thought, Thank you for your reasoning. I have previously considered the interpretation that you espouse, and still weigh it as a possibility. However, because the Matthean account explicitly quotes Jesus as referring to its predicate as the plural for angels (ANNGELOI), without the modifier holy (hAGIOS), it would seem the force of Zechariah’s parallel is diminished – despite what some commentators have had to say. Still, I do take your point in kind, but I consider the use of “angels” as an intentional point and I’m not aware of any textual issues that would undermine the word’s… Read more »
Thank you Meleti. So where, then, would you locate Armageddon time wise? I mean, Armageddon occurs immediately after the separation of the sheep and goats, or do you see it differently, and if so, why? How can you judge and execute that judgment upon all the kingdoms of this world without not simultaneously deciding the eternal future of all people alive on earth at Christ’s return, who through commission or omission were responsible for this satanic system of things? I look forward to your answer, whether in brief now, or in detailed form in an upcoming article soon. By the… Read more »
Matthew 24:31 places the gathering of the chosen ones as the last element of the sign of Christ’s presence and of the end of the age. So Armageddon would come after that. Judgment starts with the house of God as the post states. So that judgment must come first. That would be the judgment illustrated by the parable of the Sheep and Goats. The rest are judged during or at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Armageddon ends the age of the rule of man. So Jehovah through Christ puts an end to the kingdoms of mankind.… Read more »
Hi Christian brothers. 1 thess:4_15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord (the sheep) shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. (these the least of my brothers) Could Jesus be referring to those he brings with him who were asleep in death, His (Brothers). Who if they come with him (1 thess:4_14 ) may be among the angel congregate. Hence Jesus is saying see here, these your departed brothers are alive now, don’t you recognize them? They live. And you did them… Read more »
Hi Jesusjeffrey, Actually, you’ve explained your position quite well, and you have provided another way of looking at the view that “Just a thought” just expressed (pun intended). If it could be shown that the angels mentioned within these passages are really a veiled reference to the triumphant church, then I would agree with you. However, it seems to me that a fly in the ointment for this interpretation is Paul’s second epistle to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 1:7-10). Here he explicitly refers to both the angels *and* the holy ones when laying out various steps that would occur within… Read more »
Hi Vox Ratio He does say He puts the sheep on his right, it does not say He puts His brothers on his right. He may well motion toward His brothers for the sheep who are on His right to understand how they have done good to the Master. Four groups: sheep, brothers. angels and goats. The Son of Man not being ‘a group’ but the one identifying His brothers to the sheep. Consequently, the “these” that are mentioned are “those” other than the sheep. 2thess 1_10 Yes His coming to be glorified in connection with the holy ones who… Read more »
Hi Jesusjeffrey, Thanks for your thought-provoking interaction. You’ve made some salient points. As for considering the possibility that the sheep in this parable might also anticipate Christ’s brothers, consider our Lord’s encouragement that God’s called and chosen are “all brothers”, that early Christians were referred to as a “little flock” under a “fine shepherd”, that later Christians would join with them into “one flock”, that Peter was to feed such “sheep”, and that other elders were to “shepherd the flock of God” also (Mat. 23:8; Luk. 12:32; Joh. 10:11ff; 21:15ff; 1 Pet. 5:2; Rev. 22:9) Additionally, just as the Christ… Read more »
Vox ratio, I would view the point about ‘all’ the angels in Math.25:31 as including the glorified holy ones as corroborative rather than conclusive proof that they are there as a distinct group apart from the one group of those under going judgment. There is a simple and rather compelling way in which to interpret the scene in Math.25:31-46. What we have here is ONE group of people, composed of sheep and goats, before the judgment seat of Christ. As the first person has his judgment pronounced, which group of people could Jesus possibly point to as His brothers, since… Read more »
Hi Just a thought, Thanks for taking the time to interact with these issues. Let me just say that I’m in no way dogmatic about the exegesis of this parable. No doubt dogmatism is something that most of us have come to deeply regret. Having said that, however, I do think that it’s usually possible to argue for an understanding of a Biblical passage that does justice to both its context and cotext. Consequently, if you’re interested in continuing this exchange of ideas, then I’d be more than happy to dialogue with you on this site’s forum, DTT. Nevertheless, I’d… Read more »
Should we therefore conclude that Christ brothers are also part of the sheep? Could the sheep be also comprised of non-Christians who have responded to these teachings of Christ and have practiced the Christian faith unknowingly?
Vox ratio, the issue with the holy ones being like the angels requires a bit of space to deal with, and since I said that it is not central to the argument, we could talk about it on the board. As to your view that the sheep are separated by Christ prior to judgment, it could be argued that the separation itself is an act of judgment, with the explanation of, and for, the verdict merely following in a generic and collective announcement afterwards. It still makes the sheep doing good things to themselves or each other look rather odd,… Read more »
Just a thought, Again, thanks for your feedback. I take your point concerning the judgement, and think that what you have espoused could well be a live-option. However, your further rejoinders – particularly your contention concerning the angels – seems to me to be incomplete and I would need to hear a more thorough Scriptural case made in order to find them persuasive. Perhaps when you get some time, you could present a Scriptural justification for these items on the DTT forum. At any rate, in whatever way the minutia of the parable of the sheep and goats plays out,… Read more »
Meleti, thank you for the thumb nail sketch of your view on this. What about scriptures such as 2. Thes.1, where at Christ’s return all those not obeying the good news will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction, which seems pretty explicit, don’t you think? So who would you see as ‘all the nations’ who are being judged: just the 10 million JW’s, or a larger Christian field of say, 50, 100, 500 million, or even the whole lot of Christendom? And roughly what percentage would you guess the ratio of sheep to goats be: 50/50, or say, 90/10,… Read more »
>>What about scriptures such as 2. Thes.1, where at Christ’s return all those not obeying the good news will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction, which seems pretty explicit, don’t you think? If we are going to base an argument on what is “pretty explicit” then we need to be pretty explicit ourselves, don’t you think? The explicit qualifiers Paul uses to identify those undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction is that they a) make tribulation for the Thessalonians, b) do not know God, and c) do not obey the good news. We could say that point (a)… Read more »
It’s obvious, isn’t it – it’s all about control and deception.
Love this article, obey the GB for salvation is showing support for his brothers, we are all brothers, why do we call each other brother then?
Bear in mind Matthew 23:8: “But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers.” Jesus was fully capable of saying, ‘one is your teacher, whereas you are to be CALLED brothers’. But he didn’t. Why not? We see that the lion’s share of references to ‘brother’ in the Bible are of the form ‘you are brothers’ or ‘you as brothers’. Being “called” a “brother” only seems to show up once, in a negative way: 1 Corinthians 5:11: “But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called… Read more »
Thanks, qspf. You’ve given us some serious food for thought.
We have to ask ourselves, if “spiritual brothers” are supposed to be closer than ‘fleshly’ brothers, and “there exists a friend sticking closer than a brother” (Prov. 18:24), do we ever refer to our ‘fleshly’ siblings with titles like “Brother Jim” and “Sister Kate”? We might introduce them to others by saying, “this is my brother, Jim and my sister, Kate”. We would essentially NEVER use Brother and Sister as titles for our own siblings. Likewise, we might say, “this is my friend Dave” but would never, “Friend Dave, how about coming over for dinner?” Using Brother, Sister or Friend… Read more »