A Look Back Before We Look Forward
When I first started Beroean Pickets, it was intended as a means to contact other Jehovah’s Witnesses who wanted to engage in deeper Bible research. I had no other goal than that.
The congregation meetings do no provide a forum for real Bible discussion. The now-defunct Book Study arrangement came close on rare occasions when a group consisted of a number of intelligent, open-minded brothers and sisters with a true thirst for knowledge. I had the joy of conducting such a group for one blessed span of time. I always look back on it with great fondness.
However, in the current climate, frank and open Bible discussions even among long-time friends has become a dangerous proposition. Generally speaking, brothers and sisters are strongly disinclined to discuss the Bible outside of the strict confines of JW doctrine. Even within those confines, discussion is usually of a superficial nature. Therefore, I realized that if I wanted to find genuine spiritual nourishment with other Jehovah’s Witnesses, I had to go underground.
Beroean Pickets was intended to solve that problem for me and any others who chose to join in. It was intended to provide a place in cyberspace where brothers and sisters from around the world could safely gather to deepen our appreciation for God’s word by a mutual interchange of knowledge, insights and research. It has become that, but somewhere along the way it became so much more.
Initially, I had no intention of abandoning my faith as a Jehovah’s Witness. I started the site still believing that as a people, we were the one true faith on earth. I felt that we just had a few things wrong, mainly things relating to the interpretation of prophecy. However, our core doctrines—the make-it-or-break-it doctrines—were rock solid; or so I believed at the time.
My first post was in April of 2011. Two people commented. At that time I still believed 1914 was the start of Christ’s invisible presence. Following one-on-one discussions with Apollos, I came to see that the doctrine was unscriptural. So, nine months after my initial post, I posted again, this time on the topic of 1914. That was three and a half years ago.
It would be about a year and a half later that I had my own little epiphany which allowed me to resolve a growing cognitive dissonance that was becoming increasingly intolerable. Up to that point, I’d been fighting with two mutually exclusive ideas: On the one hand, I believed Jehovah’s Witnesses were the one true religion, while on the other hand, I came to see that our core doctrines were false. (I know many of you have experienced this revelation for yourselves, many long before I did.) For me, it was no longer a matter of good men with good intentions just making interpretive mistakes due to human imperfection. The deal breaker was the core JW doctrine that relegates the other sheep of John 10:16 to a secondary class of Christian who are denied adoption by God as his sons. (True, no one can deny God anything, but we sure are trying to.) To me this still is the most reprehensible of our false teachings, surpassing in its scope the false doctrine of Hellfire. (For a full discussion see “Orphans” as well as the Category Topic “Other Sheep”.)
Why So Easily Deceived?
No one likes to be played for a fool. We all hate it when we’ve fallen for a con, or learned that someone we trusted completely has been deceiving us. We may feel foolish and stupid. We may even begin to doubt ourselves. The fact is that things were different then. For instance, I was taught that 1914 was the start of Christ’s presence by people I trusted above all others, my parents. To learn more about it, I consulted the publications which gave a plausible line of reasoning. I had no reason to doubt that 607 B.C.E. was the start date for the calculation that led to 1914, and the fact that the World War I began in that year seemed to be the cherry on the sundae. There seemed no need to go further, especially when doing the needed research would involve days of effort in a well-stocked public library. I wouldn’t have even known where to begin. It’s not like public libraries have a section labelled, “All you ever wanted to know about 1914 but were afraid to ask.”
With the advent of the internet, all that changed. Now I can sit down in the privacy of my own home and type in a question like “Is 1914 the start of Christ’s presence?” and in 0.37 seconds get 470,000 results. I don’t have to go much beyond the first page of links to get the facts I need. While there is a good deal of dross and drivel out there, there is also sound reasoning from the Bible that anyone can use to examine God’s own word and arrive at an independent understanding.
Controlling the Medium, then the Message
Jesus came to set us free by revealing the truth and then granting us the gift of the holy spirit. (John 8:31, 32; 14:15-21; 4:23, 24) Jesus’ teachings are not human-government friendly. In fact, the Bible is the single biggest threat there is to the rule of man over man. That may seem odd to say since the Bible instructs us to obey the governments of man, but that obedience is relative not absolute. Human rulers, whether of the political or ecclesiastical variety, don’t want to hear about relative obedience. (Romans 13:1-4; Acts 5:29) The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses now requires exclusive devotion and unquestioning obedience. For years now it has condemned independent thinking.
In the beginning, when humans began to seize authority in the Christian congregation, they had to deal with the written word which challenged their actions. As their power grew, they controlled access to that Medium until eventually the common man had little to no access at all to God’s word. Thus began the centuries-long period known as the Dark Ages. Bibles were hard to get and even if they were attainable, they were in languages known only to Church authorities and the intelligentsia. However, technology changed all that. The printing press gave the Bible to the common man. The church lost control over the Medium. Courageous men of faith like Wycliffe and Tyndale saw this opportunity and risked their lives to provide Bibles in the language of the common man. Bible knowledge exploded and the power of the church was slowly undermined. Soon there were many different Christian sects, all with ready access to the Bible.
However, the drive for men to dominate others and the willingness of the many to submit to human rule soon created hundreds of new ecclesiastical authority structures—more men dominating men in the name of God. These could no longer control the Medium, so they sought to control the Message. To again steal away Christian freedom, unscrupulous individuals used artfully contrived false stories, false prophetic interpretations, and counterfeit words, and found many ready followers. (1 Peter 1:16; 2:1-3)
However, technology has again changed the playing field. Now it is incredibly easy for every Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane, to check out and verify any statement made by men who claim to represent God. In short, Church authorities have lost control of the Message. Additionally, their misdeeds can no longer be kept hidden with ease. Church scandals are decimating organized religions. Millions have lost faith. In Europe, they consider they live in a post-Christian era.
In the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body is responding to this new assault on its power and control in the worst possible way: By doubling down on its authority. The men of the Governing Body now lay claim to the Biblical role of Christ’s appointed Faithful and Discreet Slave. The appointment of this tiny group of men took place, according to their most recent interpretation, sometime during 1919. Without any real Bible proof, they have presumptuously proclaimed themselves to be God’s appointed channel of communication for humankind. Their authority over Jehovah’s Witnesses is now, in their mind, unassailable. They teach that rejecting their authority is tantamount to rejecting Jehovah God himself.
A man can hold sand in his hand by cupping his palm, or by closing and tightly squeezing his fist. Any child who has played on a beach knows that the latter doesn’t work. Yet the Governing Body has clenched its fist in the hope of consolidating its rule. Even now the sand is slipping through its fingers as more and more are waking up to the reality of the Governing Body’s teachings and conduct.
Our humble site is one means for providing help and understanding to such ones. However, it does not fully fulfill the commission our Lord gave us.
Obeying Our Lord
Last winter the six brothers who are now involved in the Beroean Pickets and Discuss the Truth forums came to the realization that we need to do more if we are to obey Jesus in publicizing the Good News of the kingdom, of salvation, and of the Christ. However, realizing that the holy spirit does not flow through us to you, but rather is distributed directly to all Christians who put faith in Jesus and who love truth, we asked for your input and support. The January 30, 2015 post, “Help Us Spread the Good News”, explained our plan and asked for your feedback on a variety of related subjects. There was a survey at the end which a number of you completed. From that we saw that there was indeed support for the continuation of Beroean Pickets, even into other languages; but more than that, there was support for a new site dedicated to spreading the message of the Good News free of any connection to any religious denomination.
Laying the Groundwork
At present, just maintaining Beroean Pickets and Discuss the Truth takes all our free time and cuts into the time we need to earn a living. My first personal goal is to launch a parallel BP site in Spanish (and possibly Portuguese), but I lack the time and resources. Collectively, our group want to launch the Good News site in English, and then in other languages, but again, time and resources are currently limited. If this is to grow and truly become a means of publishing the Good News unadulterated by the ideas and rule of men, it will need the support of the whole community. Many have expressed a desire to help out, both with their skills as well as their financial resources. However, before that could happen, we had to set up the right infrastructure, which is what we’ve been doing the past five months as time and finances have allowed.
We have set up a non-profit corporation. Its purpose is to give us legal status and protection under the law as well as a means for funding the preaching effort envisioned. With that finally in place, we have secured a reliable dedicated server for all our self-hosted WordPress blog sites. Currently, Beroean Pickets is hosted by WordPress, but there are many limitations as to what we can do under that arrangement. A self-hosted site gives us the freedom we need.
Of course, all of this time and investment may be for naught. If this is not the will of the Lord, then it will come to nothing and we are okay with that. Whatever he wills. However, the only way to know which way to go is to follow the principle found at Malachi.
“Bring all the tenth parts into the storehouse, that there may come to be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this respect,” Jehovah of armies has said, “whether I shall not open to YOU people the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out upon YOU a blessing until there is no more want.”” (Mal 3:10)
Where Do We Go From Here?
Where indeed? This is a question often asked of us. To this point, we have given no firm answer because frankly we didn’t have one. However, I think we are ready to address that issue. There is much to speak of, but I will hold off until our new Beroean Pickets site is launched. I am working on that over the next few days. I do not know how long it will take to transfer the domain name over, and accomplish the data transfer, but at some point soon—not yet—I will be closing down the commenting feature of the site so as not to lose any data during the actual transfer. Once the new site is up, you can reach it using the same URL you currently use: www.meletivivlon.com.
I would like to thank everyone for their patience during this transition, which I’m sure will be beneficial to all.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Buster on 2015-07-02 18:48:58
Amen to that Brother , just please keep us updated on when the new site shows up. And yeah i myself throw that word a lot rock solid, yeah sadly many (admitted not all ) doctrines are not rock solid. But I have faith our king Jesus and. Our heavenly father Jehovah will always help us, they are 1000 percent rock solid
Reply by silas Silvanus on 2015-07-02 22:38:12
Please....Please.... In all your endeavours on this web site, keep in mind that the Identifying mark of true Christianity is love. This perfect bond of union should always be the underlying force behind all we do. I know you brothers have the best of intentions in launching a new web site. However I pray to Jehovah that it will not become another sect amongst many. Remember the words of Paul at 1 Cor 11 18,19
"For first of all, I hear that when you come together in a congregation, divisions exist among you; and to an extent I believe it. 19 For there will certainly also be sects among you, l so that those of you who are approved may also become evident."
Do not forget that the "love of the truth" (2 thes 2:10) Is what has driven us all to seek the truth in the first place.
Once again I state as I did 6 months ago, that those that have control of the written or printed word (or the web site in this case) will have a great trust that could potentially be abused with time. This is why the non profit organisation you have set up, while giving legal status and certain protections, could be easily manipulated by the devil. We have seen this before. Jw history shows us how Rutherford took control of Gods people through the so-called protection afforded him legally.(A legal loop hole) Gods law is not Corporation Law. It is the law of love.
I have enjoyed the articles written over the years, however do find from time to time that these articles can be tainted with a JW mindset. I cant blame anyone for that because I was raised a JW also and have the same mindset. Therefore a genuine search for the truth must include open-mindedness and a careful examination of the scriptures just as the Beroeans did in Pauls time. Acts 17:10-14. The term "Sola Scritura" should be the basis for all truth. That is, if it is not found in the scriptures then it is not truth. Included in this search for truth should be at least a basic understanding of the original languages that the bible was written in. In particular Greek, as well as a basic understanding of Hebrew idioms and the Jewish mindset.
This can be difficult at the best of times and may require scholarly assistance.
It is a large undertaking and so I wish you all the very best. Jahs blessing.Reply by Skye on 2015-07-03 04:14:25
Many JWs leave the Organisation because they believe that by remaining in they are still at risk of being influenced by WT teachings. So perhaps that would be something to consider too.
Mark 1:14,15 "After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee proclaiming the good news of God. 'The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news of the Kingdom of God.'"
Luke 4:43 "But he said, 'I must proclaim the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other towns also, because this is why I was sent.'"
Therefore in order to teach people the good news of the Kingdom, it has to be the same good news that Jesus taught. This will require research and diligent study, and yes a knowledge of Biblical culture - Jesus was a Jew!
Mark 4:13-20 "Then Jesus said to them, Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like the seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop - some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown."
The "word" = the seed message of the Kingdom of God.Reply by mken on 2015-07-03 12:48:55
"The “word” = the seed message of the Kingdom of God."
That was true when Jesus spoke the parable, before his sacrificial death and resurrection. However after his ascension the emphasis changed to witnessing about him as recorded at Acts 1:8; 4:12. There are only six scriptures in the New Testament that record preaching about the kingdom of God Acts 8:12; 14:22; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23, 31. In three of those scriptures the preaching of the kingdom is also connected with preaching about our lord Jesus. The overwhelming message in the NT focuses on our salvation through and in Jesus, we were bought with his blood (Rev 5:9). It is not that the kingdom is no longer important, it is referred thirty six times in the NT, but now the key to being a part of that kingdom is our Lord Jesus, John 10:7-9; 14:6. (Could verse 8 be applied to the JW governing body?). Also to be participants in the kingdom of God we need to be "born again" Our Lord Jesus said that "unless anyone (not just 144,000) is born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God" and "unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." "Do not marvel because I told you, You people must be born again" John 3:3-7. So the focus should primarily be on witnessing about the King of the kingdom as our means of salvation, not witnessing primarily in response to Matt 24:14. If we are not known by Jesus despite all the powerful works we may claim to have done, he will reject us. Matt 7:21-23.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-06 19:57:51
Mken, 2 Tim 1:10 "but it has now been revealed through the appearance of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." This gospel is the one gospel of the Kingdom first preached by Jesus and by all the NT writers.
And Matt 24:14.Reply by mken on 2015-07-07 07:00:22
"Therefore do not become ashamed of the witness about our Lord...." 2 Tim 1:8
Sorry you don't get it Skye.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-07 12:33:47
Mken, Let's be nice. What is it I don't get, Brother. Thank you for your patience.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-03 07:19:43
Thank you for your counsel, Silas. Many share your concerns. It is my foremost concern. In fact, all the brothers on the site concur with you. All I can say is that our goal is to avoid a repeat of the past. The last four years have seen us moving away from the influence of a lifetime of indoctrination. It is my intention that that journey continue. I have much more to say on the subject, but I will leave it for the next post.
Again, thank you.
Comment by CP on 2015-07-02 20:17:25
Excellent Meleti. We need it !!!
Now many Spanish speakers like my relatives would have access to the website and be able to learn the truth.
Thanks Meleti : )
CP
Comment by freedomwithgrace on 2015-07-03 00:04:40
Excellent, thanks to all who have contributed so much thus far for clarity in searching for truth. I for one as a new follower appreciate all the time and effort. You have truly helped on my journey and I look forward with eager anticipation to what the future holds and your new endeavours.
Comment by agapeheartvisions on 2015-07-03 00:42:44
Please keep me posted!
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2015-07-03 07:16:11
I feel quite emotional at this exciting news and look forward to the launch! I do appreciate the time, energy and resources you have expended on this site. It's been a comfort, a beacon of truth, a sometimes surprising spur to my own research and most definitely has engaged my thinking processes!
I don't know how I would have dealt with the dissonance I was feeling when I somehow stumbled on this site just over a year ago, so I thank you all very much for your hard work, and the dedication to truth that is leading you to provide this new site.
Comment by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-03 08:51:24
Meleti, I really appreciate the work you and the other brothers have done to share the research on the many JW doctrines that are false. I found your site to be a safe place to come and learn. Since there's no independent thinking in the JW organization and I can't express or challenge such false doctrines, I've remained underground because of fear of losing my husband and many friends due to the disfellowshipping. I look forward to the launch and all that's to come. Many JWs need a place like this to come to and feel safe. I pray that I will muster up the courage to leave the JW organization. Thanks for the hope you've given so many!!!!
Comment by brendaevans32 on 2015-07-03 09:36:03
Hello Meleti
Such beautiful news.
Such refreshing.
To simply read and share and bounce thoughts on Scripture
I pray for Jehovah's Blessing.
It is exciting, it is like a light
It is freedom to really study the Good News
The message from Jehovah and Jesus
This is lovely, this is love in hues.
We can appreciate the hard work you are putting in, and we thank you so much for it, where would we be without a site like this? The hope and promise of a place to really get to share and discuss is like a cool brook on a warm summer's day.
And if there is anything, anything that I or any of us can do, please, please tell us - I would love to help.
Thank you Meleti.
Comment by on 2015-07-03 10:02:30
All the best Meleti, i do enjoy the site, i think from the point of view in challenging my own beliefs, and studying gods word. We all want freedom/truth and it ultimately comes from Jehovah God, in my opinion this website and those who contribute to it, has an impact in peoples lives?yes you can tell by the comments--well, Who gets the truth. The apostle Paul said of God’s truths: “I planted, Apollos watered, but God kept making it grow.” (1 Corinthians 3:6) So, God reveal his truths only to those who really want them. Im an active JW, its great to get different opinions on different bible topics, whether one agrees or not is another thing. looking forward to future posts or launch of revamped website
Comment by Alex Rover on 2015-07-03 10:09:00
What a beautiful article, my dear friend.
I loved the illustration of the child playing in the sand. We are nothing but grains of salt, but check out this article: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/09/17/161096233/which-is-greater-the-number-of-sand-grains-on-earth-or-stars-in-the-sky
I was thinking about Daniel 12:4 "Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever."
The Good News Association!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-03 10:19:37
Thank you, Alex, and also thank you for that link. It's the first time a mathematical calculation has brought tears to my eyes.
Comment by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-03 10:52:44
Anyone in the Mooresville, NC area? Would be nice to meet, study, and worship,
Comment by Hamilton Grey on 2015-07-03 18:44:49
"Love one another with brotherly affection [as members of one family], giving precedence and showing honor to one another. Never lag in zeal and in earnest endeavor; be aglow and burning with the Spirit, serving the Lord. Rejoice and exult in hope; be steadfast and patient in suffering and tribulation; be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of God's people; pursue the practice of hospitality. Bless those who persecute you [who are cruel in their attitude toward you]; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice [sharing others' joy], and weep with those who weep [sharing others' grief]." ―Romans 12:10-15, AMP.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-03 18:53:19
That's a beautiful scripture, Hamilton Grey, thank you.
Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-04 01:56:45
Hello Meleti - I only knew it was a matter of time before you had to come to the obvious conclusion about jw.org. Its fascinating to see how your description of the organisation known as JW has shifted over time.
I guessed that any affiliation that you may of had with the Society was truly over when you said this about them in the June 13th article Morning Worship Part: The “Slave” Is not 1900 Years Old
We cannot help but feel insulted when such a transparently meretricious argument is used in an attempt to deceive us. Like the prostitute the word derives from, the argument is dressed up to entice, but looking past the provocative clothing, one sees a creature full of disease; something to be abhorred.
I thought 'wow' and knew that just like a wife who is a serial cheater that your journey with the organisation was truly over and done with.
Congratulations.
I do have one or two questions. But before I ask them, let me take the opportunity to say thank you for the time and effort yourself, Apollos et al have made in writing well researched, balanced and erudite articles.They have helped me immensely and from the comments many others and have been of immeasurable value in our walk with our brother, Jesus and our Father.
So, my two questions:
Does this mean that you are cutting off all association with the Witnesses? Personally although I no longer attend the meetings, I feel it is necessary not to be seen as an apostate, so that when the time comes the brothers won't feel inhibited talking to me as I am still a 'brother' in their eyes.
Secondly, will people like myself who don't see eye to eye with you, be welcome? As you know we have crossed 'swords' on the issue on whether Jesus' was a pre-incarnate spirit, ergo the Logos at John 1:1. There are one or two others who have similar doubts about the veracity of such a view, but feel intimidated by the hostility of those who see things differently. I have had one PM to that effect and I have seen the reaction against brothers who hold such doubts. I could not help but see the contrast of loving and sympathetic responses when a brother on your forum DTT posted 'Doubts about Yahweh'.
So I guess in a long about way, I am asking whether you will have a set of 'core'' beliefs that all must adhere to? If so, may I just caution, that Truth is not determined by the 'majority'. I'm glad to be proven wrong, but whether it is this topic or any other there will come a time when SOMEBODY will not agree with the majority view. Could you or I be in danger of blocking the Holy Spirit if we do not consider the voice of the minority? From my own experience, everybody becomes combative, battle lines are drawn up, which just leads to a dead end on both sides. To me part of the answer is motive. I won't expand on that here for right now, but I'll leave that for you and the other brothers to consider.
I see this your greatest challenge. When do we know it is the Holy Spirit or another kind 'Spirit' that is influencing our thoughts and opinions, whether we are in a minority or the majority? It is said that men in their search for truth go through 3 phases; STORMING, NORMING and CONFORMING. It was and is true of the JW's who are now in the CONFORMING (aka 'obedience to men') stage, that you so aptly illustrated as a man trying to grip ever tight on a handful of sand.
Finally, I would like to say that whatever your response to me, I know that in the end we are all brothers, with more that UNITES us than DIVIDES us. So I wish you all the best in your endeavour and my prayers will be with you. And certainly if I can help in any way financially or otherwise I will be more than happy to help. I bless you and may our brother Jesus also bless your endeavours.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-04 08:24:31
Hi StoneDragon2K,
First of all, you’ve got to tell me how you came up with that interesting alias, unless doing so will compromise your anonymity.
As to your questions, in answer to the first, I still go do some meetings for the sake of my beloved wife. But I don’t go to many as I find them to be very galling. I oscillate between the feeling that I’m wasting valuable time and the desire to stand up and speak out when I hear something said that is just plain wrong. However, I continue to maintain association with our friends because to make an absolute and public break with the Organization would mean I wouldn’t be able to quietly preach the good news as I now understand it. It is my hope to continue to win hearts over to Jesus. This method is bearing fruit. There may well come a day when a more public stance will bear fruit as well. I’ll just have to wait to see what the Governing Body has up their sleeve, but my personal feeling is that they have started down a path from which there is no turning back. Splane’s “no 1900-year-old slave” was another confirmation to me that they are on a head-long path away from the Christ. They like to apply Proverbs 4:18 to themselves, but what I think we are seeing is an object lesson of what happens when verse 19 comes into play.
As to your second question, it is an important one. Many have expressed similar concerns. They see the site as something valuable and worth preserving. They fear we'll follow the same path so many have trod, descending into just another ecclesiastical hierarchy; another rule of man. As you say, "Storming, Norming, and Conforming". You raise many good points, and I think to do the answer justice, I should respond in my next post. I had intended to deal with these topics anyway, but your comment helps me to focus on the key concerns. So if you'll bear with me, I'll have an answer to you later this weekend.
Thank you for your support.Reply by mken on 2015-07-04 09:00:25
"I continue to maintain association with our friends because to make an absolute and public break with the Organization would mean I wouldn’t be able to quietly preach the good news as I now understand it. It is my hope to continue to win hearts over to Jesus".
How do you manage to "quietly preach" things that are not in line with current JW theology and avoid being accused of apostasy? I was accused of apostasy for discussing with a witness girl standing in the street by her mobile literature stand John 6 shortly before the 2014 memorial meeting. I suggested in the light of what Jesus stated as recorded in John 6 that all JW's should consider the implications of refusing to take the bread and the wine. The elders also had become aware of my doubts over the governing body 1919 claim from an elder in another congregation I had been having e-mail discussions with on this topic which were supposed to be confidential.
I witnessed to them my scriptural Christian beliefs that were not inline with JW beliefs and disassociated myself.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-04 09:34:38
It is not easy, Miken. We have to be cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves. A friend told me that it is like working under ban.
Reply by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-04 12:18:07
Miken, l agree it's very difficult to witness for Jesus while still in the JW congregation, however, like Meleti said, he goes there to support his wife. I do the same to support my husband out of fear because if I don't, he will turn me in to the Elders and I will be disfellowshipped. I feel like I'm in a rock and a hard place. The big question I face is what do I do since my husband is head of the household and I should obey him? Yet, by obeying him I feel I'm in direct conflict with obeying Jesus. It's a catch 22!!!! I feel in my heart of hearts that I need to make the stand and separate myself from that ungodly organization, but it's a very difficult one emotionally!!!
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-04 12:34:28
Meleti, thanks for highlighting Matthew chapter 10. I was reading through the whole chapter and found it very encouraging. When Jesus was sending his disciples out to preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, he was warning them that persecution would come and that they must be prepared for that.
Then in verse 28 he says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. ......." So the important thing for a Christian is to maintain what makes us the person we are - our beliefs, our standards, our principles, our way of life which includes obeying the commission which Jesus Christ gave us, to preach the good news of the Kingdom. So physically a Christian can be killed but no one can kill our personality.
Comment by on 2015-07-04 02:38:59
Dear Meleti,
I wish to thank you, and all who have contributed thus far, for the hard work that has been done. You and many others helped me on my journey away from the indoctrination that I had received all my life. Also you released me from the fear that was instilled in me by the WT as to an open examination of Doctrine.
I think the purpose of the new Site is admirable, and may the Lord bless your efforts. As I think it will be of huge benefit to JW's I hope that it becomes easy for them to link to on the Internet.
I am sure too, that it will benefit those of other religious groups who wish to get the truth from God's Word.
I wish you all the best for the future. And again, thank you.
Harrison.
Comment by on 2015-07-04 17:10:50
I would like to make a practical suggestion on how you might proceed. Most or all of your readers will have access to the "Reasoning" book. Suppose you were to take the topics of that book in order, one by one, and discuss them on your new forum. Thoroughly research one topic at a time, trying to discern where (if at all) you are in agreement with the book, where you disagree, and why. Try to encourage your readers to reason and research together with you, and come to a reasonably sound consensus. The Reasoning book has enough subheadings, and covers enough general topics, to act as a good organizing outline for your efforts, without being an overly long book like the Insight volumes. Following that book's outline would help to impose some (well-needed) structure to a process that otherwise might be aimless and chaotic. This might take some time, but it would be time spent well. At the end of that process, you could all point to your new work, and say "this is what we stand for". You would then compile the pertinent highlights of your discussions (someone needing to be the editor in that process) and you would have your first book. If all goes well, the first of many.
Hope this suggestion is of some help to you.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-04 21:12:53
It's a very good suggestion. Thank you.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-05 05:01:05
Meleti, I don't mean to contradict anything anyone says - everyone has a right to their opinion. Is it a good idea to encourage people to read the WT publications which are full of false teachings. If brothers continue to read WT publications, will they not still be at risk of being influenced by them? IMHO I believe that many would. The Truth is to be found in God's Word.
Reply by on 2015-07-05 09:50:43
We must consider that this is the very thing the WT says about works it calls "apostate". "Don't read them, don't touch them, you could be influenced by the Devil", etc. They want to control you with fear. As 1 John says so beautifully, perfect love throws fear outside. The only purpose for using the Reasoning book is for it to act as an "outline". Besides, if you don't systematically face what it is you were brought up to believe, how will you ever be rid of those beliefs? There is no need to fear this book, or any other one. There is no fear in love.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-05 10:18:32
Agreed Skye. I'm not sure what you're referring to however. If you mean the above reference to the Reasoning book, I believe that was intended to serve as a kind of topical template for a publication that more properly explains Bible truths.
Comment by Hamilton Grey on 2015-07-05 00:52:33
History has proven men are good at creating religion, preying on our need to be spiritual not just fleshly, it’s one of the arch deceivers favoured methods of deception particularly when targeting Jehovah’s people, remember the nation of Israel? -1Cor 10:11. For all his failed predictions the Judge was right with his proclamation: “Religion is a Snare and a Racket!”.
[The rest of this comment was copied from another site and has been deleted for copyright infringement concerns.]Reply by on 2015-07-05 02:17:47
Anon, I like your summary..Obedience and faith in Jesus leading and our father Jehovah is what's important. I enjoy the commentaries and articles of those who contribute and comments, on this site...I stumbled on this site, few months ago, doing research on watchtower study. There's good research done here, that's for sure. Will we ever find a Perfect Christian organisation this side of new system? There are many changes happening, some I'm sure we don't agree with. Working in the ministry the other day with a long time serving elder, feels the same. However, jesus did say that love would be the outstanding quality of his disciples .john 13:34,35.
Reply by deleted on 2015-07-05 02:19:41
Opps Hamilton grey...
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2015-07-05 05:10:27
Thank you for those comforting and inspiring reminders, Hamilton.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-05 10:10:17
Hamilton,
You make a number of excellent points. If I am reading you correctly, the argument is based on a single premise: Jehovah’s Witnesses are Jehovah’s people. Am I correct in understanding that is your premise?
I ask this, because you haven’t explicitly stated this and if, by Jehovah’s people, you mean anyone who is a Christian, then your whole argument is affected and in fact, becomes more tenable.
There is no disputing that the Jews up to the time of Christ were Jehovah’s chosen people. In all the earth he had one nation. Even when it went apostate, where was a Jew to go? Would he become a pagan? No! Would he rebel and try to usurp the kingship? Hardly. On the other hand, if he lived during the time of Manasseh, for instance, would he worship false gods and sacrifice his own children like the king did? That also would be wrong. His only course would be to continue to worship Jehovah, not as the priests were instructing at that time, but as Jehovah instructed in his holy word. However, would it have been wrong to speak out against the wicked practices of the priests and king? Would speaking out be tantamount to rebellion against Jehovah? The Bible evidence is that not only would it have been acceptable, but that it was the approved course of action. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisah—the list goes on and on—were not men appointed by the priesthood, but they were prophets sent by Jehovah to reprove the priesthood and the king.
From this we can determine that even when Jehovah’s ancient nation was rebellious and apostate, faithful Jews had to remain in it, but had to continue to practice God’s law and speak the truth, not bend to the wicked will of their leaders. If they chose to speak out against the sinful practices of those appointed over them, they were blessed by Jehovah.
Then came the Christian congregation. Things changed. Jehovah then wanted Jews to follow his Son and leave the practices and religion of Jewish nation, becoming part of a new nation, a Christian nation.
“But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1Pe 2:9)
Eventually, the Christian congregation became a mighty nation, a Catholic (universal or all-embracing) nation. However, the rules didn’t change. A faithful Christian troubled by the false teachings and practices, like Hellfire and idol worship, of the Catholic priesthood still had to remain a Christian, did he not? Like his faithful Jewish counterpart in the time of Manasseh, he would not participate in the false practices, but also like that Jew who remained a Jew and didn’t go off to become a pagan or atheist. The Christian had to remain in Christ to please the Lord, like the Jew remained a Jew to please Jehovah.
Would it not also be true that like the Jewish prophets of old, our faithful Catholic Christian would be right in speaking out and denouncing the false teachings of the Church leadership?
Now we come to our day. How has this changed? The apostate fleshly nation of Israel was replaced by a spiritual nation. That spiritual nation has also gone apostate. Jehovah rejected the fleshly nation. Has he rejected the spiritual nation? Jehovah’s Witnesses say Yes, in 1918. However, that belief is based on antitypical prophetic parallels not found in Scripture and therefore rejected by the current JW leadership. (See “Questions from Readers”, March 15, 2015 The Watchtower)
Since we can prove from Scripture—as we’ve done repeatedly on this forum—that Jehovah’s Witnesses teach falsehoods, we must conclude that in this all-important requirement they are no different from any other Christian denomination today. Therefore, there is no Scriptural nor empirical evidence to prove that Jehovah’s Witnesses have a right to lay exclusive claim to being Jehovah’s chosen people. They are Jehovah’s chosen people, yes; but so are Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Adventists…in fact, any religion that claims to follow the Christ.
So if we are to apply the logic you employ, we must apply it inclusive of all Christendom. Would it not be Scriptural to say this?
We are like that faithful Jew in the time of Manasseh. We cannot leave our nation, for that would mean abandoning Christianity. However, we also cannot participate in the false practices of Christendom, whether they be the teaching of Catholic idolatry, or Baptist Hellfire, or JW two-tier salvation. We must remain Christian, which means remaining true to the teachings of Christ. The question remains: Should we speak out and condemn the false religious practices of our church, be it Anglican, Adventist, or Jehovah’s Witnesses?
The idea often promoted is that it is not our place to criticize and admonish those “Jehovah has placed over us.” The fact is, it is very much our place; in fact, it is our duty. For we are not acting on our own, but by divine appointment. All Jesus’ disciples, your humble servant included, have received this commission:
“For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35 that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.” (Mt 23:34, 35)
The apostles and first century Christians imitated Jesus in exposing the false teachings of the Pharisees. That is why they were persecuted. (Acts 5:29; 7:59-8:1) Speaking out isn’t rebelling against Jehovah. It is how we demonstrate loyalty to our God and Father, and obedience to our King, Jesus.
You make the point, Hamilton, that the disciples Jesus sent out did not properly understand at that point in time the kingdom they were preaching. Nevertheless, this didn’t stop Jesus from sending them out. Likewise, today, we do not fully understand the nature of the reward we are preaching. Like Paul, we see things hazily as through the reflection in a metal mirror. (1Co 13:12) But your comparison isn’t quite fair. What Jehovah’s Witnesses are preaching—an earthly hope with no chance of adoption by God as sons at this time—isn’t the result of unclear vision. It is a deliberate distortion of what is clearly stated in Scripture. To knowingly preach it would be to knowingly preach a lie.
“Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’” (Re 22:15)
All my life, I was active and regular in my door-to-door preaching. I expended great effort in bringing what I thought was the truth to people. To go by the number of converts, I was far more effective at this than the majority of my brothers. (I do no say this as a boast, but to make my point.) The fact is, doing that in ignorance of the facts is forgivable, but continuing to do it now, knowing that some important elements of what I would be teaching would be lies would be testing the spirit. I would be knowingly practicing or (as the NWT Reference Bible puts it) “liking and carrying on a lie”. To suggest that I, or anyone else, should continue to do that while “waiting on Jehovah to fix things” is to ignore the plainly stated warnings found in Scripture and to put one’s eternal life in jeopardy.
IN SUMMARY
I can agree with most of what you are saying if we can change the premise from “Jehovah’s people” being only Jehovah’s Witnesses to refer instead to all of Christendom. That, and remove the injunction against speaking out against the false teachings and practices of those who lead the church, and you have it.
Changing the premise also addresses this concern you expressed:
“Do the actions of a minority convince us to abandon the entire association of our brothers?”
Most of us on this forum have come to the realization that our newfound understanding does not require us to abandon our association with our brothers. In fact, we have expanded it. Before our association was limited to only Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now we realize that all Christians are our brothers, but we also realize that the vast majority of our brothers are misled by false instructors and false prophets. So rather than concentrate only on Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is our desire to embrace all our Christian brothers and help them to understand the wonderful hope that has only recently opened up to us.Reply by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-05 11:11:27
Hi Meleti,
I enjoyed reading your reply, more than mine. You expressed my sentiments that were in my head, better than I did. Wow!!
We have so much in common, my brother - I hope our 'little' divergence on a particular matter (you know the one - wink) will not stop us standing side by side as 'one'. It shouldn't as I have made a very good friend of a Trinitarian and we both see each other as 'brothers' although we differ in our opinions regarding the nature of Christ. I hope the same will be true of us as well.
Again, an excellent riposte to Hamilton.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-05 11:34:50
Hi StoneDragon2k,
I think that between us we covered the subject from two different but equally important points of view. I appreciated reading your insights on the matter and think they've added a needed balance.
Since our little divergence :) I've continued to grow in my understanding of such differences. While there are Scriptural limits governing our association, I've come to see they depend more on motive then differing understandings. Be assured that I do consider you my brother and I've appreciated many of the well thought out comments you've contributed to the forum.
Meleti
Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-06 01:00:32
Hamilton Grey,
just where would you be if Russell - and even men like Luther - had heeded your advice and ‘waited on Jehovah’ while remaining in the Church that taught him the basics of Christianity, and if he had reasoned, ‘Jesus is in control here, so why should I leave and start out on my own, and thus rebel against His headship?’
Do you know the meaning of the term ‘leaven of the Pharisees?’
Reply by Nightingale on 2015-07-07 07:55:19
I noticed this text is copied from this site: http://perimeno.ca/Index.htm
Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-07 19:14:37
Thank you Nightingale, for pointing that out. HG's post has been edited and the copyrighted content replaced with the link you provided.
Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-05 09:25:54
This is a response to Hamilton Grey's lengthy post
You raise some interesting points, but unfortunately they are typical of the myopia that leads JW's in the dark.
I'll address each of them as succinctly as possible:
1) You seem to be making a parallel between Israelites of Old, from Moses' day to Jesus and the modern day movement of JW's. Your comments about rebelling against Jehovah seem to suggest that what Meleti et al are proposing is tantamount to the rebels of old.
However there is no parallel. JW's have not demonstrated in ONE single way that they are God's chosen people. All we have are claims of men that have failed in EVERY SINGLE PREDICTION they have made about the future. This track record proves far from being God's instrument they are in fact false prophets:
Deu 18:21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?"
Deu 18:22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.'
Has every word spoken by the GB come true? No. Therefore they are a presumptuousness prophet. Ergo those that follow them are equally false.
Also, unlike all of God's prophets who were publicly chosen or later revealed to have credentials that were supernatural, the GB have nothing and have done nothing. They are even incapable of representing themselves in court without the aid of a huge legal team, much less relying on God's Holy Spirit.
And of course, JW's were never led or witnessed God's power, as the Isrealites experienced, that would mark them out in any special way as different and chosen from all other church groups. Therefore the boast and comments about being 'Gods people' are vain and empty.
2) You said: Many formerly zealous brothers and sisters today feel that they can no longer conscientiously participate in preaching “the good news about the kingdom,” arguing we have gotten some details, wrong.
We do not preach the Kingdom or the Kingdom.
To preach about an imagined Kingdom set up in 1914, by ignoring ancient dates accepted by all scholars (except when it suits) and then misquoting Bible passages, attaching double meanings to prophecies (when there are none), inventing meanings of what a generation is and eventually arriving at point in history and declaring it to be in God's timetable, does not make a basis for boasting. Rather it is embarrassing. And most certainly has nothing to do with the Kingdom Jesus preached about. As Paul said at Gal 1:6 it is "another sort of good news"
And if I was really going to be unkind, I would say the Good News preached by JW's is a curse to those who bear it and listen to it. For the reasons I stated, it does not originate with God:
Gal_1:9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
3) You said:
Do the actions of a minority convince us to abandon the entire association of our brothers? ( 1Pet 5:9)
By this I guess you mean that we should all remain affiliated with jw.org and attending the meetings? If so you are sadly mistaken. Christianity is a Body. Christianity is the Body of Christ and all who are Christians belong to that Body, with Christ as the head. Christianity is not an organisation or a denomination. It is a living entity, organic not some faceless corporation or ecclesiastical hierarchy wishing to impose itself on men.
Thus what is proposed by Meleti is perfectly acceptable as a way for all the parts of the body to be in touch and stay in touch with all other parts. As is any other method of communication.
Jesus said:
Mat_18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst."
To imagine there is a need for large congregations, conventions, KH's etc. is completely missing the point.
I could add much more to what I've said, but there should not be a brother reading this site that should be put on a guilt trip, as a result of the specious reasoning used by the Society.
When there is Christian darkness where there should be light, it behoves every part of that body to light up the darkness so that those who love the light will leave the darkness and become attached to the true light, the body of Christ. That my friend is the true Gospel and not some false, fairy tale Kingdom concocted by Satan.
As long as Meleti does not think he can be the head of his brothers, then in a small way he will be serving the interest of our true master, Jesus.Reply by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-05 10:43:59
Thank you stonedragon2k for your response to Hamilton Grey. When I read Hamilton's diatribe I wanted to vomit because it's not a lack of faith why we are all here. Also, how can one continue in an organization that has misled us for so long and claim to be Jehovah's organization. It is clearly NOT Jehovah's organization. It has all the markings of a false prophet 2 Peter 2:1-3 and I John 4:1-3. I support Meleti and the brothers of this site for exposing the false teachings of the Watchtower by thoroughly researching God's word. Jehovah has led me to this site which confirmed all the doubts I had over the years. I knew then that I was not going crazy but that I was part of a Cult. 2 Cor 6:17 tells us to get out from among them, not have faith and wait as Hamilton is suggesting.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-09 11:35:07
stonedragon2K, I like the way you put the explanation of Christianity into words which make it very easy to explain to people. I was talking to two Mormons today, and they were asking me which church I attended (I don't attend any church) and was able to explain to them the meaning of Christianity. I would just like to add a scripture which I looked up when I got home.
Eph 1:22-23 "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."
Comment by silas Silvanus on 2015-07-06 02:26:01
Just out of Curiosity and for that reason alone: Is there anyone that subscribes to this site that is fluent in biblical Greek? Anyone that has any Scholarly training? Or anyone with a wealth of biblical experience or expertise? Is there any Scholars, theologians amongst us?
I'm not implying that this is important in order to attain the truth. Just curious.
I think it is a testament to those that contribute to this site, that they have been able to examine in great detail so many different doctrinal teachings. However I cant help but wonder how they would stack up to scholarly scrutiny.
As a kind of proposal for the future, perhaps inviting scholars to scrutinise comments and articles and also participating themselves in discussions would be beneficial.
Just a thought anyway.Reply by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-06 17:12:11
When Jesus taught, his teachings failed the scrutiny of the scholars of his day.
But of course we know our brother was anything but a failure.
When Paul taught, although a scholar himself, he failed to convince his peers who themselves were scholars.
But of course we know our brother was anything but a failure
Granted, so what we learn from the Bible might not cut any mustard with scholars.
We have to be careful. If we lean on scholars to verify our understanding of the Bible,
they could become a snare, as Bro/Sis might use them as a litmus test of truth And before we know it, we are right back to square one. Needing a man to teach us God's Word. Replacing the GB, with Scholars. Not a prospect I would look forward to.
Granted having a scholar could be useful, but you must realise that for all the Greek the scholars of this world know, they still believe in say the Trinity. How has their scholarship helped them to distinguish truth in this regard? The Catholic Church has some of the most erudite men on Earth in its service and yet, their view on some scriptures is very puzzling.
The Bible is Gods Word. Some of it happens to be written in Greek, but who is its author? God. And his Word became living flesh and taught men. My point is, we have to believe that our educator is God and not men. Would you want a scholar 'proving' from his/her grasp of Greek why John 1:1 is a doctrine for the Trinity and why we should accept it?
We may be children in the eyes of this world, but if we truly belong to the body of Christ, then what better Head could we want to instruct us? Do you believe that or would rather a man to instruct us?Reply by Skye on 2015-07-06 18:32:13
I agree that a Greek scholar would be useful, but of course we would need to exercise caution for reasons stated. On the other hand you do not require a PhD to understand Hebrew culture - it's really very easy to study and extremely interesting, and, of course, helps to give us a more accurate and detailed examination of scripture which would certainly be beneficial in our studies. Perhaps we could devote some time to this.
Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-06 21:21:31
Hi Silvanus,
seeing that the thoughts condensed into letters are the product of Holy Spirit, would it not be better to have them decoded also by Holy Spirit, rather than by technical scholars and linguists?
"For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." 1 Co 2:10
Comment by We Are All Brothers – Part 1 | Beroean Pickets on 2015-07-10 15:55:35
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