In the first part of the series, we saw that to protect ourselves from the folly of organized religion, we must maintain a climate of Christian freedom by guarding ourselves against the leaven of the Pharisees, which is the corrupting influence of human leadership. Our leader is one, the Christ. We, on the other hand, are all brothers and sisters.
He is also our teacher, meaning that while we can teach, we teach his words and his thoughts, never our own.
This doesn’t mean that we can’t speculate and theorize about the meaning of verses which are difficult to understand, but let us always acknowledge it for what it is, human speculation not Biblical fact. We want to beware of teachers who treat their personal interpretations as the word of God. We have all seen the type. They will promote an idea with great vigor, using any and every logical fallacy to defend it against all attack, never willing to consider another point of view, or acknowledge that perhaps they are wrong. Such ones can be very convincing and their zeal and conviction can be persuasive. That is why we must look beyond their words and see their works. Are the qualities they manifest those that the spirit produces? (Gal. 5:22, 23) We are looking for both spirit and truth in those who would teach us. The two go hand-in-hand. So when we have difficulty identifying the truth of an argument, it helps greatly to look for the spirit behind it.
Admittedly, it can be difficult to distinguish truthful teachers from the false ones if we look only at their words. Thus we have to look beyond their words to their works.
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (Tit 1:16)
“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them…” (Mt 7:15, 16)
Let us never become like the Corinthians to whom Paul wrote:
“In fact, you put up with whoever enslaves you, whoever devours your possessions, whoever grabs what you have, whoever exalts himself over you, and whoever strikes you in the face.” (2Co 11:20)
It is easy to blame the false prophets for all our woes, but we should also look to ourselves. We have been warned by our Lord. If one is warned of the trap and yet ignores the warning and steps right into it, who really is to blame? False teachers only have the power that we grant them. Indeed, their power comes from our willingness to obey men rather than Christ.
There are early warning signs that we can use to protect ourselves from those who would try to again enslave us to men.
Beware of Those Who Speak of Their Own Originality
I was recently reading a book in which the author made many good Scriptural points. I learned a lot in a short time and was able to verify what he said by using the Scriptures to double-check his reasoning. However, there were things in the book I knew were wrong. He displayed a fondness for numerology and placed great significance in numerical coincidences that were not revealed in God’s word. While admitting that it was speculation in the opening paragraph, the rest of the article left little doubt that he considered his findings to be credible and in all likelihood, factual. The subject was harmless enough, but having been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and having had my life course altered based on the speculative numerology of my religion, I now have an almost instinctive aversion to any attempts at “decoding Bible prophecy” using numbers and other speculative means.
“Why did you put up with it for so long”, you might ask me?
When we find someone we trust whose reasoning seems sound and whose conclusions we are able to confirm using the Scriptures, we naturally feel at ease. We may let down our guard, get lazy, stop checking. Then reasoning which is not so sound and conclusions which cannot be confirmed in Scripture are introduced, and we swallow them trustingly and willingly. We have forgotten that what made the Beroeans so noble-minded wasn’t simply that they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if Paul’s teachings were true, but that they did this every day. In other words, they never stopped checking.
“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” (Ac 17:11)
I came to trust those teaching me. I did question new teachings, but the basics that I’d been raised on were part of the bedrock of my faith and as such were never questioned. It was only when they radically changed one of those bedrock teachings—the generation of Matthew 24:34—that I began to question them all. Still, it took years, for such is the power of mental inertia.
I am not alone in this experience. I know that many of you are also on the same path—some behind, and some ahead—but all on the same journey. We have learned the full meaning of the words: “Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.” (Ps 146:3) In matters of salvation, we will no longer put our trust in the son of earthling man. That is the commandment of God, and we ignore it at our eternal peril. That may sound overly dramatic to some, but we know from experience and by faith that it is not.
In John 7:17, 18 we have a valuable tool to help us to avoid being misled.
“If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.” (Joh 7:17, 18)
Eisegesis is the tool used by those who speak of their own originality. C. T. Russell helped many people free themselves from false teaching. He was praised for turning the hose on Hellfire, and he helped many Christians free themselves from the dread of eternal torment which the churches were using to control and fleece their flocks. He worked hard to spread many Bible truths, but he failed to resist the temptation to speak of his own originality. He succumbed to the desire to figure out what was not his to know—the time of the end. (Acts 1:6,7)
Eventually, this led him into pyramidology and Egyptology, all in support of his 1914 calculation. The Divine plan of the Ages actually displayed the Egyptian god symbol of Winged Horus.
The fascination with the calculation of the ages and the use of pyramids—particularly the Great Pyramid of Giza—endured into the Rutherford years. The following graphic was taken from the seven volume set named Studies in the Scriptures, showing how prominently pyramidology figured into the Scriptural interpretation which C. T. Russell espoused.
Let us not speak ill of the man, for Jesus knows the heart. He may have been very sincere in his understanding. The real danger for any who would obey the command to make disciples for Christ is that they could end up making disciples for themselves. This is possible because “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9 KJV)
In all likelihood, very few start out willfully determined to deceive. What happens is that their own heart deceives them. We must first delude ourselves before we can start to delude others. This does not excuse us of sin, but that is something God determines.
There is evidence of a change in the attitude Russell had from the beginning. He wrote the following just six years prior to his death, four years prior to 1914 when he expected Jesus to manifest himself at the start of the Great Tribulation.
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.” (The Watchtower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, 1910, page 4685 par. 4)
When Russell first published Zion’s Watchtower and Herald of Christ’s Presence in 1879, it started with a run of only 6,000 copies. His early writings do not indicate that he felt his words should be put on a par with the Holy Bible. Yet, 31 years later, Russell’s attitude had changed. Now he taught his readers that it was not possible to understand the Bible unless they relied on his published words. In fact, by what we see above, he felt it was possible to understand the Bible using only his writings.
The Organization that grew out of his work is led by a Governing Body of men who have apparently followed in the footsteps of their founder.
“All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.” (Watchtower; Oct. 1, 1994; p. 8)
To “think in agreement,” we cannot harbor ideas contrary to…our publications (Circuit Assembly talk outline, CA-tk13-E No. 8 1/12)
In the 31 years counting from the first issue of The Watchtower, its circulation grew from 6,000 to around 30,000 copies. (See Annual Report, w1910, page 4727) But technology changes everything. In four short years, Beroean Pickets readership has grown from a handful (literally) to almost 33,000 last year. Rather than the 6,000 issues Russell printed, our page views were approaching a quarter of a million in our fourth year. The figures double when one factors in the readership and view rate of our sister site, Discuss the Truth.[i]
The purpose of this is not to blow our own horn. Other sites, particularly those openly scornful of the Governing Body and/or Jehovah’s Witnesses garner more visitors and hits. And then there are the millions of hits that JW.ORG gets every month. So no, we are not boasting and we do recognize the danger of viewing statistical growth as evidence of God’s blessing. The reason for mentioning these numbers is that it should give us pause for sober reflection, because we few who started this site and now propose to expand into other languages and a new non-denominational site for the preaching of the good news, do so fully mindful of the potential for it all to go wrong. We consider that this site belongs to the community which has been built up around it. We consider that many of you share our desire to both expand our understanding of Scripture and to make the good news known far and wide. Therefore, we must all guard against the deceitful human heart.
How can we avoid the hubris that leads a mere human to think his words are on par with God’s?
One way is to never stop listening to others. Years ago, a friend jokingly said that the one thing you’ll never see in a Bethel home is a suggestion box. Not so here. Your comments are our suggestion box and we listen.
This doesn’t mean that every idea is acceptable. We do not want to go from an ultra-controlling environment that disallows any Scriptural understanding that disagrees with that of a Centralized leadership to one of a free-for-all of ideas and opinions. Both extremes are dangerous. We look for the path of moderation. The way to worship in both spirit and truth. (John 4:23, 24)
We can keep to that middle ground by applying the principle quoted above from John 7:18.
Disfellowshipping – Not for Us
Looking back over the past four years, I can see in myself a progression and, I hope, some positive growth. This is not self-praise, for this same growth is a natural consequence of the journey we are all on. Pride hinders this growth, while humility accelerates it. I confess that I was held back for a time by the prideful bias of my JW upbringing.
When we started the site, one of our concerns—again under the influence of a JW mindset—was how to protect ourselves from apostate thinking. I do not mean the distorted view that the Organization has of apostasy, but real apostasy as defined by John in 2 John 9-11. Applying the JW disfellowshipping policy to those verses caused me to wonder how I could protect the forum members from those intent on misleading others with personal ideas and agendas. I didn’t want to be arbitrary nor act as some self-appointed censor. On the other hand, a moderator must moderate, meaning his job is to keep the peace and preserve an ambiance that is conducive to mutual respect and individual freedom.
I did not always handle these duties well initially, but two things happened to help me. First was a better understanding of the Scriptural view of how to keep the congregation clean from corruption. I came to see the many unscriptural elements in the Judicial Process as practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses. I realized that disfellowshipping is a man-made policy controlled by an ecclesiastical leadership. This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches a drawing away or disassociation from the sinner based on personal experience. In other words, each individual must determine for himself or herself whom he chooses to associate with. It is not something that others enforce or impose.
The second, which went hand-in-hand with the first, was the experience of seeing how a real congregation—even a virtual one like ours—deals with these matters under the umbrella of God’s holy spirit. I came to see that by and large a congregation polices itself. The members act as if with one mind when an intruder comes in. (Mt 7:15) Most of us are not little sheep, but war-weary spiritual soldiers with a lot of experience dealing with wolves, thieves and plunderers. (John 10:1) I have seen how the spirit guiding us creates an atmosphere which repels those who would teach of their own originality. Often these depart without any need for draconian measures. They sense they are no longer welcome. Therefore, when we encounter the “ministers of righteousness” Paul spoke of at 2 Corinthians 6:4, we have but to follow the advice of James:
“Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from YOU.” (Jas 4:7)
This isn’t to say that in extreme cases the moderator will not act, for there may be times when there is no other method for preserving the peace of our meeting place. (If a man were to enter a physical meeting place and shout and scream and act abusively, no one would consider it unfair censorship that the individual be escorted out.) But I have seen that we rarely have to make the determination. We only have to wait to perceive the will of the congregation; for that is what we are, a congregation. The word in Greek means those who are called out from the world. (See Strong’s: ekklésia) Is that not what we are, most literally? For we comprise a congregation that is truly world spanning and which, with our Father’s blessing, will soon embrace multiple language groups.
So let us, at this early stage, abandon any notion of an official disfellowshipping policy implemented by any form of leadership. Our leader is one, the Christ, while we are all brothers. We can act in unison as did the Corinthian congregation to rebuke any wrongdoers to avoid contamination, but we will do so in a way that is loving so that none may be lost to the sadness of the world. (2 Cor. 2:5-8)
What If We Misbehave
The leaven of the Pharisees is the contaminating influence of a corrupted leadership. Many Christian sects began with the best of intentions, but slowly descended into rigid, rule-oriented orthodoxies. It may interest you to know that Hasidic Jews began as an all-embracing branch of Judaism given to copying the loving-kindness of Christianity. (Hasidic means “loving-kindness”.) It is now one of the more rigid forms of Judaism.
This seems to be the way of organized religion. There is nothing wrong with a little order, but Organization means leadership, and it always seems to end up with human leaders supposedly acting in God’s name. Men dominate men to their injury. (Eccl. 8:9) We don’t want that here.
I can give you all the promises in the world that this will not happen to us, but only God and Christ can make promises that never fail. Therefore, it will be up to you to keep us in check. This is why the commenting feature will continue. If the day should ever come when we stop listening and begin to seek our own glory, then you must vote with your feet as many of you have already done with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Let Paul’s words to the Romans be our motto: “Let God be found true, though every man be a liar.” (Ro 3:4)
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[i] (Visitors are counted based on distinct IP addresses, so the actual figure will be lower because people log in anonymously from different IP addresses. People will also view a page more than once.)
When the Berlin wall was torn down,some were brought to court for killing innocent people (people trying to escape / flee from the eastern (communist) to the western (capitalist) side of Berlin. THe judge asked why they shot. And the reply from the soldiers was often that they were following orders. The Judges did not accept that argument and said that they have a conscience and a mind of their own to see if their orders were just and righteous. By honoring these orders, they showed they supported the policies and were just as guilty as the leaders imposing these… Read more »
The Australian royal commission even has copies of the letters from the wt org to the elders regarding the perpetrators – very revealing I have only read one of them
I think all religious judicial courts should be held in the open like the nation of Israel did by holding their courts at the gates for all to witness – no secrecy everything transparent
The Watchtower is all about control and deception – they are masters at it.
BN, can you tell us which country you are referring to here?
I have heard that Germany has this system. People resign from their churches in Germany to save having to pay the church tax. I may be wrong about that. I’m going from memory.
It used to be in various European countries like that. The religious organisation would receive State support (from taxpayers) based on the number of registered members. In the Netherlands people indicate their membership when they register themselves (or at birth done by the parents) with the municipality of the area they are going to live in. I believe this arrangement (state support) has changed in The Netherlands. The registered organisation receive a tax exempt status (i.e. on donations, other financial proceeds and assets). Not sure about other countries. If i is still the old way (support based on registered members),… Read more »
I left the statechurch most of us here belong to; you belong if one of your parents belong … years before i met a witness I wrote a letter, and got a certificate that i was no longer a member ..Maybe i should ask for one from jw.org ? They surtenly push for people to get one, when we study with them ….Or ask my government how the rules apply for jw.org and their policy …..In these days it’s the cc that is accused of fraud with these lists.. …earlier it was our statechurch … and some muslim congs ..… Read more »
If brothers and sisters are so shocked and concerned, then why are they still out on the door to door ministry when surely such a practice is posing a danger for children. Imagine you are a parent or single parent and someone comes to your door offering to study the Bible with you – perhaps that brother could be a paedophile. And what about inviting people to the Kingdom Hall or offering them WT literature without even warning them that their children could be in danger. There are vulnerable people out there, so what does having love for our fellow… Read more »
I think the problem is that when these things happen they always deride the individual that is directly to blame that’s assuming they know about it , but one thing they never do is level the blame at the organisation or the religion itself . I remember having that mindset myself when i hit problems it was always that the brothers were imperfect it was never down to the religion itself . Many brothers don’t realise that it’s the unscriptural procedures of the organisation that are atl least part of the problem and the trust us concept . Even if… Read more »
Once brothers and sisters become aware that there is a problem of child abuse within the Organisation, or indeed anywhere, then we all have a responsibility to start asking serious questions, and doing everything we can to protect children from harm.
There are no excuses.
I agree skye , but by the time the Watchtower news filter by fear system gets turned on and then if any bad news about the religion does get through its then cast aside as apostate lies and the old slander card comes out . The brothers get the impression that there is no big problem .I’ve seen it as an elder there’s an awful lot of secrecy , and i think that’s creating more of a dangerous environment than it would normally in other let’s say open organisations .As sad as it is though this sort of thing goes… Read more »
Let’s get things in perspective . The vast majority of jehovahs witnesses are decent people with a very high moral standard i believe any way . Who are also appalled by these types of acts . The problem lies with the facade that the Watchtower has created which has led them to believe that these sort of things don’t happen in the (truth) . That has led to an environment where all can be exploited in one way or another as they have put their guard down and put complete trust in those people around them . This is not… Read more »
Yesterday in the public ministry here in Australia, no doubt the bro’s & sis’s are hurt and deeply angry with those who commit such terrible crimes as this. I personally was shocked to hear so many have been abused!! Very sad,I hope this brings some justice and closure. There needs to be real change that’s for sure. I must admit that once upon a time 2 things I felt proud of 1, I could tell householder, don’t know who the GB where, now there on the midday show, 2, that were a clean (relatively speaking) group of people. Well that’s… Read more »
“Let Paul’s words to the Romans be our motto: “Let God be found true, though every man be a liar.” (Rom. 3:4)”
I couldn’t agree more Meleti.
This has always been one of my favourite scriptures, because like all the other verses of renown it packages so much meaning into so few words.
By I don’t get it either I’ve never heard of this type of thing what country are you from ?
?
I would bet it’s a Latin American country with an outstanding growth figure .
Skandinavia
This has been back on my head for two years now, so it was time to leave … but as we all know it’s impossibke without loosing friends and family… so it’s understandable that many just faide … For me it’s also a question about my conscience… about what the bible really teach and they getting money for me, teaching something i cannont support ..
This raises an interesting question, BN. When one goes inactive, one is no longer considered a member of the congregation. One’s name is removed from the service group lists which are posted on the announcement board. So they really can’t claim a person who is inactive as a member to the government without also including them in the membership roles which means including him on the service group lists. Seems like another example of a double standard.
BN I don’t understand you comment, how does the WT get money from the government for members whether going or not?
How could anyone watching this still want to remain a member of this cruel Organisation?
Remember, we are / were not members … lol .. you can never leave … of course we can just stop going, but in my country the org will still get its money from the government for members who really not are members anymore .. guess we are members when it comes to this money … lol
BN, Can you throw some light on your comment please?
In my country every registrated religious org gets money from the government pr head .. so it’s up to the churches to send lists of how many they are.. so when one become a jw they also count your children … it was very importent when i joined that they got all needed information (like snn in usa) about every family member .. There has been a lot in the media about churches reporting too many members .. but i do not have any reason to believe that about jw.org…It’s like this because we did not have a separation between… Read more »
Could you tell us which country you are referring to, where the government gives tax money to the WT on a per-member basis? If that would not reveal anything about you, that is?
Isaiah 8:20 Modern English Version (MEV)
“To the law and to the testimony; if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Yes!
@Sis Billy,I too am in Australia and am looking to establish a network of true Christian friends
It’s not on topic but can I please get comments on what has happened here with the revelations by a royal commission that over 1000 child abuse cases going back to 1950 have been unreported to the authority’s by WT representatives, the evidence is damning, an elder even confessing to the commission that he destroyed records of judicial cases involving peadophila without reporting it to law enforcement , it won’t be long that anyone with a conscience is going to leave the org.
Hi Wild Olive,
The video transcripts of the on-going proceedings are to be found on Barbara Anderson’s site. Since this is not a civil or even criminal action of a single case, but a country-wide investigation at the government level and since it is being broadcast to the world, it is most damning. For me what is most distressing is the evasive responses the witnesses so far have demonstrated, as well as the lack of contrition and the absence of any willingness to admit wrongdoing.
One of the elders had a self righteous smirk and. Defiant attitude to the commissioner
He hadn’t read anything the victim has said or followed any of the royal commission – unbelievable!
This is the same self righteous attitude I have witnessed with the circuit overseers I have met over the years
They don’t think they are doing anything wrong
Destroying evidence, wow wow, and a elder lied/forgot about the father admitting in the judicial meeting that he said it was all true, but destroying notes. Oh yeah, I seen all thee thee days and I believe they won’t resume court until Friday. August jw broadcast what you got for me, cause this just floored the world .
Thanks wild olive how can we get in touch? :)))
I have the best chance of keeping confidence if you sms me on 0412838864 look forward to hear from you
I remember giving the talk coping with life’s anxieties where the outline encouraged us to try and do without prescribed drugs if possible . I gave the public talk only to be criticised by the presiding overseer as he and his family were on anti depressants . Yes gods happy people . Somethings wrong
Yes I noticed that as well . It was amazing how many were on tablets for depression in our congregation . When they were continually described as gods happy people . It told me that something didn’t add up . I’m a happy outgoing person by nature but even I toward the end was feeling really down . My son is a psychologist and he says a lot of problems are caused by an individual being trapped and pressured by the expectations of other people around them to the point they cannot be themselves anymore . Like a bird in… Read more »
Hi Dorcas
In answer to your question as to how I found out so many were depressed and/or on medication, it happened over the span of a few years during conversations with various individuals in the congregation. I remember thinking at one time, what! another one? As for the P.O’s wife, he told me himself.
I recall a CO meeting with elders from the late 1990s where the Society provided script used by the CO contained language expressing that the GB thought an inordinate number of JWs were taking anti-depression meds and were concerned about it. I thought it unusual that this would be recognized and in print on the CO’s outline, but after the meeting I asked to see his outline and there it was in black-and-white.
This is a comment to Sister Billy. You mentioned something about being pressured to take anti-depressant drugs and refusing. You should NEVER take medication because some (non-doctor) person is pressuring you. In fact, even if it’s the doctor saying it, IN MY OPINION you should get a second or even third opinion on this matter. If you want a real eye-opener, go on web sites where people who take Prozac, Paxil, etc. and all the other antidepressants talk about their experiences. I kid you not, the number one topic of these people boils down to, “for the love of God,… Read more »
I am in total agreement with you nominois 🙂
Very well expressed, and I could not agree more. Thanks!
I m constantly amazed with your articles as I can relate so well I to them I had to do a whole revision of the organization after learning about he “generation” doctrine changing I had been out of the organization for 15 years and hadn’t even realized the change had been made for quite a while after I was back it absolutely floored me it was one of those shocking moments one gets when You can still remember exactly where You were and who You were speaking to – like the day you heard about the Kennedy assination or the… Read more »
And I live in Edinburgh, Scotland if anyone would like to meet up.
Just wanted to say thanks, for your honesty, your determination to speak the truth. Just by using our father’s words, not an organization’s words.
Amazing the common sense you use, that seems to be lacking in scriptural discussions. Your truly an inspiration to many, and hopefully many more
Nice write up Meleti, i understand the dilemma one faces being an active JW and not totally convinced on some of the teachings. Trying to discuss that with your own friends in the faith, is pretty difficult. So whether it was Jehovah drawing me to this site, as I don’t look at anything other than JW Org, wt etc, I’m not sure, however it’s a place you can go to, were the bible is discussed in an unbiased manner, without insulting the intelligence of the reader. You can learn, and express your thoughts on the bible, whether they are right… Read more »
Great article and write up. I have all but two of Russell’s studies of the scriptures, sure they costed a lot, but was it worth owning a original physical copy of it. I thought for a second you were gonna go with the Finish Mystery , which i think it is the best book ever released by the organization. I love when the organization uses Romans 12:3 , and tries to tell us all ( the rank and file) to not think highly of ourselves, but then they do the total opposite. Especially the daily text reading for July 26,… Read more »
And when I say finished mystery is the best book, cause it makes absolutely 150 percent no sense, and. It is. Pure Gold
I never read the daily text. My parents never got into that habit and so even though I grew up a Witness, it was never part of my daily routine. I tried on my own to get into the routine, but never could. I found the text to be boring and often meaningless. They’d cite a Scripture which the text had nothing much to do with. I’m sure my JW brothers and sisters will read today’s text and think that we knew that Christ’s invisible presence began in that year. That is clearly what is being implied and the Watchtower… Read more »
I love when they don’t put the whole verse of the Bible and alot of times have …….. Which you know you need to get the bible to find out if they used the verse out of context, and I love or laugh more like when they always give you a watchtower reference so you can go check it out. But yeah today text I said out loud I can’t believe people are gonna buy this stuff, oh well.
And brother don’t forget about the years 1799, 1874, 1878, even I believe 1881 was a important date, 1914, 1918, and the great year of 1925. Oh boy we love our years 🙂
I agree! ” Friends let’s turn to (insert scripture here) and read the ‘A,B,C,D’ part only”….
I agree if they would just be honest and transparent I would have way more respect for them. But they are tricky, confusing and secretive
I think that when we read comments, and people quote a website, we should ask ourselves, did the information come from the Bible or the website. There are, of course, websites which are genuine and can assist us greatly in our research, but this is not always the case. Once leaving the WT we must continue to heed the Bible’s warnings about false prophets and teachers.
As Christians the scriptures should be our guide. We have one leader, Jesus Christ.
Hi Skye, If you’re referring to my comment, i definitely don’t currently agree with everything that is brought out from other teachers/searchers. But I did agree with that particular quote. We should be United in the love of Christ. However, unity never comes before truth. We should be willing to be divided by truth before we are united in error. Jesus came to bring a sword, not peace. That sword was the truth – the Word of God. Yet, some scriptural matters aren’t black and white and, for now, are open for discussion and even personal conviction. Disagreements on these… Read more »
Hi eyeontorah,
No, I was not referring to your comment – sorry for misunderstanding! In fact I thought the quote you mentioned was very interesting and thoughtful. I have noticed one or two websites that have been mentioned from time to time and which I have looked up and thought them to be a bit dubious; I was just offering a word of caution which I felt was appropriate. My comment was not directed to anyone in particular, it was a general comment.
OK lol sorry
I just heard a quote from a guy named Jum Staley. He said “True unity is coming together in your disagreements through your common bond of love.”
Love for God and love for neighbor brings unity. We may not always agree on everything. But we do agree that Jesus is the one who died for our sins. In that truth we are united. In love we grow from that foundation.
Meleti wrote: ” I realized that disfellowshipping is a man-made policy controlled by an ecclesiastical leadership. This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches a drawing away or disassociation from the sinner based on personal experience. In other words, EACH INDIVIDUAL must determine for himself or herself whom he chooses to associate with. It is not something that others enforce or impose.” (Bold mine). I appreciate this comment. I have long believed this but couldn’t put it in words. As for the scripture that warns us about ” Not putting our trust in … the son of man” ,… Read more »
Could you enlarge on the topic of “pandemic depression that is found amongst J/W’s” ?
This is the first I have heard it described in so many words. Can you give any examples, or have any person experiences of people fitting that description that you could relate? How bad is this pandemic, really?
It is a I am one of many JWs who are very depressed. My depression started recently when I found out that the JW organization is not Jehovah’s organization. This hit me like a ton of bricks!!! This realization, and all the failed prophecies and doctrinal errors and the flip flopping that they craftily describe as new light. I became very disillusioned by finding all of this out. It’s also very hard watching my husband pioneer and gives his all to an organization that is built on lies and manipulation. I tried discreetly to reason with him, but he’s still… Read more »
Hi, I truly feel sorry for your situation. It is so recognizable. In my situation, it is a bit the other way around. My wife still attends and is still very “IN”. Fortunately I did not get depressed although I felt the symptoms, which made me decide to quit attending meetings etc. At first it puts a burden on the relationship but eventually it makes things clear for both, which helps. My wife prefers this even over me attending the meetings with an angry face, being critical all the time etc. And she prefer me to be inactive, over being… Read more »
I feel for you, Dawn Ann. It is hard living in what amounts to a divided household. Would you have ever imagined that in a JW household these words would apply to you? “…a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and yet he is agreeable to dwelling with her, let her not leave her husband. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to [his] wife, …” (1Co 7:13, 14 NWT) Or these words: “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have… Read more »
Keep your chin up dawn ann and remember love is the most important thing it’s what we are on the inside that really matters not so much doctrine see Peters first letter for encouragement F J
Hi Anonymous. Before I continue, I would like to say that I really enjoy some of your posts. As for the “pandemic depression” I mentioned, perhaps the use of the word “pandemic” is overblown, I don’t know for sure but let me just say this; In the last congregation I was in, which is some 12 years ago, there we’re at least 1 in 4 sisters in a congregation of about 140 publishers, that were on medication for depression, including the P.O’s wife. In previous other congregations that I was in, I also noticed some who were seeing psychiatrist’s and… Read more »
“we’re at least 1 in 4 sisters in a congregation of about 140 publishers, that were on medication for depression, including the P.O’s wife.”
Please, I don’t mean to doubt you for a minute. But I’m simply wondering how you know these statistics? I’m sure there must be some in my congregation who are on antidepressant medications but they certainly don’t go around advertising it. In fact, I don’t know any. Simply curious and no offense meant.
Dorcas
I can’t give you any hard statistics, but I know of many JWs – brothers and sisters – who are on anti-depressants and I also know, off the top of my head, of five people who either committed or attempted suicide. I don’t know how that compares to the general public but it certainly raises the legitimate question of why “God’s Organization” is so full of people who have serious mental health issues.
I also know of a number of brothers and sisters from the congregation I was attending to be suffering from depression and on medication. They told me personally In fact they have pressured me to go on medication of which I refuse to do. The reason I refuse is because I suffer from cognitive dissonance from attending their meetings and suffer from loneliness because of their lack of love and support. I suffer from guilt because of their judgmental ness I would feel guilty because I wasn’t putting in enough time or sacrificing enough to the point that I gave… Read more »
Thanks Meleti for another great commentary, as well as the other brothers and sisters comments. I have struggled for several years since ceasing my association with the JW org to find a way to obey the exhortation in Heb. 10:24,25 to ‘incite to love and fine works’ and to not ‘forsake our meeting together’. This scripture is used ad nauseam by the WT- indeed in my 45 years of active association as a JW, it has to rank near the top as the most repeated scripture. As JW’s, we were taught that leaving the org was tantamount to leaving Jehovah… Read more »
Meleti yet again I tend to agree whole heartedly with what you’ve said here . I think the difference is that we are genuine people with no hidden agendas who give an honest evaluation of what we see and read in the scriptures Also I think we and others here are not afraid to listen to others point of view and change if we realise we have been wrong . Proverbs 1 verse 5 and proverbs 13 verse 10 says with those consulting together there is wisdom . The trouble is with people in power history shows time and time… Read more »
Thank FJ.
I couldn’t agree more.
Meleti i read many of your blogs before i actually commented a few years ago and what stuck me was you seemed to have arrived at many of the same conclusions i had already reached with my own in dependant bible research . The reason, i think was that we were letting the bible speak for itself . Kevin
That’s the key, FJ. It proves that the idea we can only understand Scripture through the filter of the Governing Body is bogus.
When you leave WT you see more and more how the brothers and sisters have been controlled/brainwashed. And so when they do leave, some can become very depressed for a while, and when people are depressed they can say things which may seem unreasonable. So this is perhaps an area where we can show patience and help these ones to get back on their feet again. The key is listening to Jesus Christ and what he came to the earth to preach, the Good News of the Kingdom of God. It is through the Kingdom that everything wrong with the… Read more »
The key is listening to Jesus Christ and then believing him and “coming to Him” to receive eternal life. .The Greek word translated “come” is Erchomai and Thayer in his Greek/English lexicon comments with reference to its use in John 5:40; 6:35,37,44,45,65 “to commit oneself to the instruction of Jesus and enter into fellowship with him Only by “coming” to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39,40 ), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). It is through… Read more »
Miken, It’s really not that complicated. Let’s preach the real good news and stop looking for meanings that are just simply not there.
“Let’s preach the real good news”.
Yes I agree Acts 1:8 and 1 Cor 15:1-4, 12. We cannot be saved by the Kingdom only by the King of the Kingdom, Acts 4:12, it’s really not that complicated.
Hi Miken, Sorry if I came across as a bit abrupt in my reply to your comment. After preaching the Good News, according to WT for over 30 years, my determination now is to preach the Good News according to Jesus Christ, and I’m sure that is the same for you. If I could just make a point with regard to 1 Cor 15:3 – Paul said that Jesus’ death and resurrection were “among the things of first importance.” And that, of course, is true, but that is not the whole Gospel. Jesus preached the saving Gospel long before he… Read more »
Thank you for another insight,I have often pondered on where it all went wrong and after this article it seems it began with pastor Russell and has continued ever since. It does seem an impossible task to avoid the same pitfalls of “the leaven of the Pharisees” no matter how good the intent is. This has been the one thing that has prevented me from abandoning the JW as I haven’t really found anyone else who hasent fallen into the same pitfall. A side point,I can’t really find a definition of the leaven of the Pharisees in WT publications, maybe… Read more »
Never have I elsewhere read such sincere, logical articles that expose the mechanisms of an organization clinging to dead teachings. Never have I felt the freedom to ask questions and challenge points. There’s something special here, no doubt in my mind.
Glory to God!
I wholeheartedly agree on the NO DISFELLOWSHIPPING. The problem with disfellowshipping is that the Elders do it in secret. If you are going to tell me I can’t talk to someone, you got to tell me why, and if it’s a disagreement rather than a sin, that person has a right to defend himself. And so it should not be mandated to the group, but each individual has the responsibility to GUARD themselves and to choose good association. The cure to keep the congregation clean is found in scripture: 1) Rebuke in private 2) If that doesn’t work, Rebuke with… Read more »
Hi Meleti, I find that any teacher is seldom right about everything. I have been wrong about many things, but that does not mean I’m wrong all the time either. So with exception of Christ, teachers and truth are a mixed bag. It would be unwise to reject a valid argument simply because of where it came from. Truth is truth, no matter it’s source. About Pharisees, Jesus said .. do as they say, not as they do. Yet on the other side of the spectrum there can be ‘superfine apostles’, who have the appearance of a beautiful Spirit, yet… Read more »
Well said, Alex! Thanks!
Sorry, long post… When I found this site a few years ago, I was desperately afraid and despairing of ever finding anyone with whom I could ask questions about God’s word and how to apply it. I wondered who this Meleti was and whether he was gong to be …”just another controversial and embittered person…”. I wrote to him many times and every single email was responded to. Even my negative emails were answered. One time I attacked him in an unfair way. Then I apologised and was promptly forgiven. Just like that! In time I found the confidence to… Read more »
Thank you, Meleti. Beautiful expressions, Claudelle. It’s my feeling that our God is drawing us together, out of a controlling and abusive organization that doesn’t really care about its members. I’m glad you were able to see the reality before you were entangled by it. Once you’re in, it’s a different story entirely. I agree with you that Meleti has never been too busy to answer email or encourage and sympathize when I need it. I believe it’s because of the holy spirit that this is happening. Meleti and the others who are behind this site are men favorable to… Read more »
Pleased to meet you Dorcas. Look forward to reading about your’ thoughts.
“I hope for all of us here that we can regain lost faith and repair many hurts and develop a sound foundation for our shared beliefs” Claudelle.Only by “coming” to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39, 40; 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). We are then in a position to come to “know” both the Father and Jesus Christ personally and intimately (John 17:3). and also in a position to “eat… Read more »
I am at the Bible Students Convention in PA. There was just a discourse on how the date for the beginning of the invasion of Jerusalem is 607BC. The destruction of Jerusalem is in 587BC. So 2,520 days from 607BC is 1914. So the date is correct it’s just that the understanding of what happened in 607BC is incorrect.
Chris, is this some desperate attempt to justify the 607 date? They must be conscious of the fact that so many people in and out of the organization don’t believe it……….not really. If it is what I fear, then it’s almost as bad as saying “invisible return of Christ” and such nonsense. It will be open to pure speculation all over again. A very cunning attempt to defeat historians.
The Bible Students are to be left alone. They are sincere Christians and in no way can they be characterized as “cunning”.
Deborah
It may be that Deborah thought it was the Regional Convention of JWs. That’s what I thought when I first read it, but then on rereading more carefully I realised it was not a JW convention. Easy mistake to make.
Meleti, I understood that it was a Bible Student Convention being addressed. I personally know many Bible Students and know that most are sincere. They should not be vilified. They are sincere and loving Christians.
Deborah
I have no doubt that many Bible Students are, indeed, sincere. However, this attempt to “save” 1914 is as delusional as any the JWs have come up with. The entire enterprise of trying to find a secret code that will allow access to ‘knowledge of times and seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction’ is a God-defying mistake that can result in nothing good.
Deborah, I was not attacking this group of followers. Actually, I thought it was a JW convention. However, the basic idea of supporting a date that is not accurate and sticking stubbornly with it is not productive. I am sorry if I offended you for that was not my intent.
Thanks. No harm done.
Well we don’t believe anything is wrong with the date. Just what JWs have turned it into. We believe that it is the end of the gentile times. Not the establishment of Gods Kingdom or when his Parousia started. JWs have changed almost every type of bible student doctrine.
Hi Chris, What is, then, the significance of 1914 according to the Bible Students? Does it serve in any way as an indicator of where we are in the divine timetable? Of how near or far the end is? Also, do the Bible Students believe in an invisible parousia and if so, when did it start? I’m not challenging here, just truly curious. The folly I see in all this is the fact that it is the product of human interpretation, and so to assign it any real doctrinal significance is to attribute some kind of inspiration to it. And… Read more »
We see it as the end of the gentile times. We see everything about the Jews in prophesy coming true since that date. Such as the Jews being restored to their land and being made their own nation. The nations are against Israel which we see happening now. All of the prophesies of the Jews are coming true. So exciting to see. The JWs have turned it into an establishment of Gods kingdom which we as Bible Students do not agree with.
According to the book of Zechariah, the gentile times have not yet ended.
Luke 21:24 “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” This is a quotation from Zechariah 12:3 (LXX) “all the nations will gather against Jerusalem and will mock the city and trample it underfoot.”
I agree Skye. I don’t believe the Gentile Times have ended yet. If it hasn’t, it sure is coming close to its end. We can see favor rapidly slipping away from the Gentile “church”. With the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948, many nations are currently “aligning themselves” as enemies of Israel. Though the nation has not accepted Christ as their Messiah, many individual Jews/Israelis are accepting Christ. According to prophecy, the nation will accept Christ. When this happens, the Gentile times will definitely be ended. Whether it ends BEFORE that happens or WHEN that happens is the… Read more »
Luke 21:24; Dan 9:26,27; Rev 11:2,3.
And you all are free to believe what you want. That’s what freedom in Christ means. I however disagree. Jerusalem is no longer being trampled on by the nations and is free and has been re established. Just like it was said at the end of the gentile times would be.
Would that not mean that the gentile times ended around 1948 or 49?
Here is an amazing article done by the Dawn Bible Students on why we believe that the gentile times have ended. 🙂
http://www.dawnbible.com/1987/8702-hl.htm
eyeontorah, Isaiah 19:16-25 is interesting.
v 23-25 “In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, ‘Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance’.”
Skye, that is an interesting prophecy. It’s interesting how Jews are not allowed to worship on the temple mount in Jerusalem. When a Jew makes any expression of Jewish identity, or faith, or pride, while on the Temple Mount. He is immediately swept up by the police, removed from the Temple Mount and placed under arrest. Yet, Non-Jews are allowed to scream allah akbar at the top of their lungs in the faces of peaceful Jews & Jews are forbidden to pray there. It seems even though Israel regained control of Jerusalem 1967, the “trampling of the Gentiles” is still… Read more »
And that’s your opinion to believe just that. There is the third temple ready to be built and is being discussed in Israel. . Research it. There is no requirement that they must worship only on the Temple Mount. They are free in their own country, the Hebrew language is being revived, they are not subject to any country anymore.they are their own nation which has never been done since it was taken from the, Before this they were taken into captivity in other countries. They are being gathered back to Israel for the first time in years. This could… Read more »
I’m not sure what the fuss is about. The times of the gentiles is only found in one verse in the Bible. If Jesus meant the actual city of Jerusalem coming back under Jewish control, then it’s hard to see that the gentile times have yet ended. If however, he is using Jerusalem to indicate the site of Jewish government, then an argument can be made that the times ended when Israel achieved nationhood. That still leaves questions unanswered, but so what? Let’s overlook that for the moment and go with the “Israel as a nation” fulfillment. Again, I ask,… Read more »
Meleti
“all scripture is inspire of God”. Whether 1 or 10 it’s is there for reason. Just a tip. When something is posted online where you encourage people to comment and discuss you can’t get angry withy the responses. Is this not what this page is for? I can see if someone was arguing and being demeaning and insulting but you can’t ask someone’s opinions and get mad at them for it. You posted something online and we were having a friendly discussion.
You’ve misread my emotion. I wasn’t getting angry nor mad. A little frustrated, yes, but even our Lord expressed frustration at times. Did you think that I was suggesting that the 1 scripture wasn’t inspired of God? Absolutely not. Can’t see how I gave that impression, but if I did, let me assure you that I believe Jesus’ words about the trampling of Jerusalem are inspired words. It is the speculation and conclusions that men draw from those words which are not inspired of God. I hope I’ve cleared that up. By the way, I wasn’t asking for your opinion.… Read more »
No harm Meleti
Chris, The complete understanding of scripture/bible prophecy is not always contained within one, two or even more scriptures. In order to achieve understanding we have to explore the entire Hebrew Bible relating to each subject; this requires time, humility and patience. The dawn article you have provided does not contain sufficient scriptural evidence to support its claim that the times of the gentiles have ended. May I suggest that a lot more research is required. It’s true that as JW/exJWs we have learned a considerable amount about the Bible, but we need to sift away the false teachings in order… Read more »
Skye What you consider false many other consider truth. Truth is not truth because the majority agree. For example. John 1:1 say Jesus is God but yet 1 Cor 8:6 says that father is only God. Now we have to pull these together. But what makes one scripture more accurate for a belief than another. We believe that the Gentile times have ended because if the evidence we see in Israel. By the way I used to be a JW for years. and I know that many who come out of the Society tend to want to believe the opposite… Read more »
I understand Chris, and I wish you well. However, if anyone is interested please read Zechariah 14, and I hope this proves helpful.
Well just remember. That when it was taken from the Jews is when it started. When it was given back to the Jews it like end. Not that anyone wouldn’t still come against them.
But there is no proof of that, Chris, is there? The statement is based on supposition, is it not?
The Jews have always been their own nation. Then after their disobedience they were to be subjected to other nations. In Jesus days they were subjected to he Romans. Jerusalem would be dominated by the Nations as we have seen in history “until the gentile times be fulfilled”. Now that they have been fulfilled they are now their own nations governing themselves and ruled by themselves. Jerusalem is now in the hands of the Israelites and Jews again. Because the gentile times have expires and they have a right to their own land again. The gentile times isn’t about the… Read more »
First of all we have to assume that Jesus’ words refer to the actual, physical city. Let’s call that Assumption 1. Or we could assume it represents the nation since Jerusalem as the seat of Government can be used that way. Assumption 2. Or we could assume it represents Jehovah’s people, in which case, it now represents the New Jerusalem. Assumption 3. If we go with Assumption 1, we have to assume what trampled on by the nations represents. Does it mean that the nations control Jerusalem. Let’s call that Assumption 1A. Right now both the Palestines and Israeli’s claim… Read more »
Well then we would have to assume that we will never know. I see many exJws or “awake” ones that will just any position that differs from the watchtower. The Jews knew what he was speaking of or they would have been question Jesus about this. The Jews are now returned to their homeland and Jerusalem will never again be taken into the hands of the Gentiles. The have returned because it was Gods due time for them to return. We see every promise in connection with the Jews taking place. We now notice that this is all talking place… Read more »
You ascribe the Jewish victories to miracles? God protected the Jews during the 6-day war?
Not necessarily
Thank you Meleti.
I applaud your sincere desire to help your brothers and sisters and to follow Christ.
I’m sure you know that what you are attempting has never been successfully accomplished. This is because never in the past has God’s Son been with those attempting to do what you are trying to accomplish.
I wish God’s blessing on your efforts and that Jesus himself may guide your way.
Deborah
Thank you, Deborah.
Remember, A righteous man’s (or woman’s) supplication, when it is at work, has much force. (James 5:16)
Meleti, you can expect that Satan will throw stumbling blocks your way. One of them is adulation by some who are not yet ready to lean on Christ completely. Another is the temptation to look in the mirror too long and too hard. We are human. Yet another is ridicule from unexpected avenues something which is very hard to cope with. Surround yourself with friends who will not fear to disagree with you. Friends who love God and his Son much more than they love you. Friends who love the brotherhood to such an extent that they will sacrifice their… Read more »
There is also a danger in seeing Satan around every corner, always handy and ready at hand to blame when something doesn’t go our way. Have we run into difficulties? Made mistakes? Got discouraged? Faced limitations? All we have to do is blame Satan. WT likes to do this a lot. Another site made a good case of saying that WT teaches its followers to fear Satan more than God. Satan is the ready scapegoat to be blamed for any and all problems. I have yet, however, seen anyone offer a single shred of PROOF that any particular problem (of… Read more »