I was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I engaged in the full-time service in three countries, worked closely with two Bethels, and was able to help dozens to the point of baptism. I took great pride in saying that I was “in the truth.” I truly believed I was in the one true religion that Jehovah has on earth. I say none of this to brag, but only to establish my frame of mind before I began this course of study. Slowly, over the course of months and years, I came to realize that most of our core doctrines are false. I came to see that 1914 has no scriptural significance whatsoever. That 1919 does not mark the appointment of the faithful steward. That there is no Scriptural basis for the Governing Body to assume the title of faithful and discreet slave. That the arbitrary insertion of God’s name in the Christian Scriptures goes beyond what is written and worse, hides an important truth about our relationship with God. That the other sheep and little flock do not refer to two distinct groups of Christians with different hopes, but is based on the now-disavowed practice of teaching fabricated antitypes. That the command to partake of the emblems applies to all Christians. That the policy of disfellowshipping is unloving and grossly misrepresents the Bible’s direction on the proper handling of judicial matters.
These things and more I learned and so came to the point where I had to decide which I loved more—the Organization or The Truth. These two had always been synonymous, but now I saw that I had to choose. Given the testimony of 2 Thessalonians 2:10, there could only be one answer for me. However, embracing truth leads to an inevitable question for anyone coming from a Jehovah’s Witnesses background.
Virtually every one of us comes to the point when we ask, “Where else can I go?”
A non-JW reading this might find the question trivial. “Just go to a different church; one you like,” would be his answer. Such a response ignores the fact that the reason we are even considering leaving our organization—which means potentially leaving friends and family—is that we love truth. Through our preaching work we have been exposed to pretty much every other religion and have come to see that all teach falsehoods. If we are going to abandon ship so to speak, it had better be for a religion that teaches truth, otherwise there is no point in going through the trauma. We would view it as merely jumping from the proverbial frying pan into the fire.
And there’s the rub!Let’s illustrate it this way: I have been taught that to survive Armageddon into the New World, I need to stay inside the ark-like organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
“We have been pulled from the dangerous 'waters' of this wicked world into the 'lifeboat' of Jehovah’s earthly organization. Within it, we serve side by side as we head for the 'shores' of a righteous new world.” (w97 1/15 p. 22 par. 24 What Does God Require of Us?)
“Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.” (w06 5/15 p. 22 par. 8 Are You Prepared for Survival?)
I’d always believed that my “lifeboat” was headed for shore while all the other boats in Christendom were sailing in the opposite direction, toward the waterfall. Imagine the shock of the realization that my boat was sailing right alongside the rest; just one more ship in the fleet.
What to do? It made no sense to jump into another boat, but abandoning ship and jumping into the sea didn’t seem like an alternative.
Where else could I go? I couldn’t come up with an answer. I thought of Peter who asked the same question of Jesus. At least, I thought he asked the same question. As it turns out, I was wrong!
Asking the Right Question
The reason I was asking about “where to go” was that I had the JW-imposed mindset that salvation was associated with a place. This thought process is so embedded into our psyche that every witness I’ve come across asks the same question thinking it is what Peter said. In fact, he didn’t say, “Lord, where else shall we go?” What he asked was, “Lord, whom shall we go away to?”
“Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68)
Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained to believe that to get to the shores of the New World they have to stay inside the Organization Ark with the Governing Body at the helm, because every other ship is heading in the wrong direction. Abandoning ship means drowning in the turbulent waters of the sea of humanity.
What this mentality overlooks is faith. Faith gives us a way off the boat. In fact, with faith, we don’t need a boat at all. That’s because by faith we can walk on water.
Have you ever thought about why Jesus walked on water? It is a type of miracle set apart from all the others. With his other miracles—feeding the masses, quieting the storm, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead—he benefited others. Those miracles demonstrated his power to provide and protect his people and gave us a foregleam of what his righteous rule will do for humankind. But the miracle of walking on water and that of cursing the fig tree stand apart. Walking on water might appear uncharacteristically showy, and cursing the fig tree seems almost petulant; yet Jesus was neither of these things. (Mt 12:24-33; Mr 11:12-14, 19-25)
Both these miracles were restricted to his disciples. Both were intended to demonstrate the incredible power of faith. Faith can move mountains.
We don’t need an organization to guide us to shore. We just have to follow our Lord and exercise faith in him. That’s what we need.
Meeting Together
“But what about the meetings?” some will ask.
“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.” (Heb 10:24, 25)
We have been raised with the idea that meetings are vital. Until recently, we met three times a week. We still meet semiweekly, and then there are the regional conventions and circuit assemblies. We enjoy the sense of security that comes from belonging to a large crowd; but do we need to belong to an organization to gather together?
How often did Jesus and the Christian writers tell us to meet? We have no direction on this. The only direction we have comes from the book of Hebrews and it tells us that the purpose of meeting together is to incite one another to be loving and perform fine works.
Is that what we do at the Kingdom hall? In your experience, in a hall of 100 to 150 people, sitting quietly for two hours all facing front, listening to someone sound down instruction from a platform, how do we incite one another to love? To fine works? Through commenting? To a point, yes. But is that what Hebrews 10:24, 25 is asking us to do? Inspire through a 30 second comment? Sure, we may chat after the meeting for five or ten minutes, but can that be all the writer had in mind? Remember, this methodology isn’t exclusive to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Every Organized Religion on the planet uses it. Do you see other religions abounding in love and fine works because of the meeting procedures?
If it ain’t working, fix it!
The sad thing is we once had a model that worked. The good news is that there’s nothing keeping us from going back to it. How did first century Christians gather? They had large numbers like we do today. For example, there were three thousand souls baptised on Pentecost alone, and shortly after that, the Bible says that five thousand men (not counting women) became believers after listening to the teaching of the apostles. (Acts 2:41; 4:4) Yet, with such large numbers there is no record of congregations building special meeting halls. Instead, we read about congregations meeting in the homes of believers. (Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:19; Col 4:15; Phm 2)
As It Was in the Beginning
What is keeping us from doing the same thing? One thing is fear. We are working as if under ban. Meeting with others could become known to the authorities in the local congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Meeting together outside of the arrangement of the Governing Body would likely be seen as a threat to their authority and there could be serious repercussions. The first century congregation was persecuted by the authority of the Jews at that time, because they saw the growth as a threat to their place and position. Likewise today, a similar attitude will prevail. So great caution and respect for the confidentiality of all concerned is called for. Nevertheless, this is an excellent way to build each other up in faith and love.
In my area, we have found a number of local brothers and sisters who have awakened to the truth of God’s word and want to meet together for mutual encouragement. We recently had our first gathering in the home of one of the group. We plan to continue on a monthly basis for now due to the distances involved. About a dozen of us were present, and we spent a very encouraging hour discussing the Bible. The idea we’ve formed is to have a sort of round-table discussion based on reading a Bible passage and then letting everyone contribute his or her thoughts. All are allowed to speak, but we have one brother designated as moderator. (1Co 14:33)
Finding Others in Your Area
One of the ideas we are considering, with the support of our virtual congregation, is to utilize the site as a means for brothers and sisters around the world to locate one another and arrange meetings in private homes. We do not have the resources to do this yet, but it is definitely on the agenda. The idea will be to provide a means to seek out like-minded Christians in any given area while protecting the anonymity of all. As you would expect, this is a challenge, but we believe it is a very worthwhile endeavour.
How Can We Preach?
Another question involves the preaching work. Again, we have been raised with the mentality that only if we engage in the door-to-door preaching work on a weekly basis can we find God’s favor. One of the common “proofs” raised when challenged about our alleged status as the only organization Jehovah is using today is that no other group is preaching the vindication of God’s Sovereignty. We reason that even if we leave the Organization, we must continue preaching from house to house if we are to gain God’s favor.
Is the House-to-House Ministry a Requirement?
This is a major concern for Witnesses considering getting off the boat. The reason is that we have been taught that the house-to-house preaching is a requirement from God. By it we sanctify God’s name by making the nations know he is called “Jehovah”. We are separating sheep and goats by means of it. People will live or die based on how they respond when we show up at their door. It even helps us develop Christian qualities such as the fruitage of the spirit. If we fail to do it, we become blood-guilty and will die.
All of the above is taken from our publications, and we will show that it is specious and unscriptural reasoning before the end of the article. However, for now let us look at the real issue. Is the house-to-house work a requirement?
Did Jesus tell us to engage in a particular form of preaching? The answer is no! What he told us to do is this:
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU” (Mt 28:19, 20)
Make disciples and baptize them. He left the method up to us.
Are we saying that we shouldn’t engage in the house-to-house preaching? Not at all. Each of us has been given a mandate to make disciples. If we want to do that by going from house to house, then why not? If we choose to go about the disciple making work in another way, then who’s to judge us? Our Lord left the method up to our discretion. What he is interested in are the final results.
Pleasing Our Lord
Jesus gave us two parables to reflect upon. In one, a man journeyed to secure kingly power and left ten slaves with equal amounts of money to grow for him. In another, a man is travelling abroad and before leaving gives three slaves different amounts of money to invest for him. These are respectively the parables of the minas and the talents. (Lu 19:12-27; Mt 25:14-30) You will notice in reading each parable that the master gives the slaves no instructions on how they are to invest the money.
Jesus didn’t specify what the minas and talents represent. Some claim they represent the disciple making work; others say it is the Christian personality; still others point to the declaration and publicizing of the Good News. The exact application—assuming there is only one—is unimportant to our discussion. What is important are the principles embodied in the parables. These show us that when Jesus’ invests his spiritual possessions with us, he expects results. He doesn’t care that we use one method over another. He leaves the method for getting the results up to us.
Each slave in the parables is allowed to employ his own method for growing the master’s money. He doesn’t appoint one over the rest. Some gain more, some less, but all get their reward save for the one who did nothing.
With that in mind, is there any justification for one of the slaves to exalt himself over the rest and demand that all employ his particular method for investing the master’s resources? What if his method is not the most effective one? What if some slaves wish to employ another method they feel is more advantageous but this one self-important slave prevents them? How would Jesus feel about that? (Mt 25:25, 26, 28, 30)
To bring this question into the real world, consider that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was formed about fifteen years before Russell first began to publish the Watchtower magazine. At a time when we proudly boast of 8 million members internationally, the Seventh-day Adventist Church lays claim to 18 million baptized adherents. While they also do house-to-house work, it is minimal compared to the time we spend on that work ourselves. So how did they grow to more than twice our size in basically the same time period? They obviously found a way to make disciples that didn’t involve knocking on people’s doors.
If we are going to please our Lord Jesus Christ, we have to divest ourselves of this idea that only by regularly going in the house-to-house ministry can we find favor with God. If that were truly so, the Christian writers would have made it very clear that this requirement was crucial for all Christians. They did not. In fact the entire argument advanced in the publications is based on two Scriptures:
“And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Ac 5:42)
“…while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. 21 But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Ac 20:20, 21)
If we are to suggest that the house-to-house witnessing as we practice it is mandated by these two Scriptures, then we must also acknowledge that we should be preaching in temples and other places of worship as well as in the public squares. Like Paul, we should stand up in the marketplace, perhaps on a soapbox, and start crying out the word of God. We should enter into synagogues and churches, and present our point of view. Paul didn’t go into a public area with a cart and a literature display and stand quietly by himself waiting for people to approach him. He stood up and proclaimed the good news. Why do we lay a guilt trip on our membership claiming that if they don’t go from door-to-door, they will be blood-guilty, while not giving equal importance to the other preaching methods mentioned in these two Scriptures? In fact as you read through Acts you will find many accounts were Paul preaches in the synagogue and in public places. Far more than the two references to preaching from house to house.
Further, there is considerable debate as to whether the phrase kata oikos (literally, “according to house”) used at Acts 20:20 refers to actually working down a street by going from door to door. Since Paul is contrasting kata oikos with “publicly”, it could well refer to his preaching in the houses of Christians. Remember that congregation gatherings were held in the homes of people. Also, when Jesus sent out the 70 he said,
“Wherever YOU enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’ 6 And if a friend of peace is there, YOUR peace will rest upon him. But if there is not, it will turn back to YOU. 7 So stay in that house, eating and drinking the things they provide, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not be transferring from house to house. (Lu 10:5-7)
Rather than working door to door down a street, it appears the 70 followed the methodology later used by Paul, Barnabas and Luke of going to the public places and finding a favorable ear, then accepting lodging with that householder and using their home as a center for their preaching work in that town or village before moving on.
Overcoming Indoctrination
The power of decades of indoctrination is considerable. Even with all the above reasoning, brothers and sisters still feel guilty when they don’t go out in the door-to-door work regularly. Again, we’re not suggesting it is wrong to do so. Quite the contrary, the door-to-door work can be effective in certain situations, for example opening up a new territory. But there are other methods that are still more effective in performing the work Jesus gave us to do of making disciples and baptizing them.
I am not a proponent of anecdotal evidence. Nevertheless, I would like to relay the facts of my personal life to see if perhaps it mirrors what many others have experienced. I have a feeling that will be the case.
As I look back over the last 40+ years of active preaching, I can count almost 4 dozen individuals that my wife and I have helped toward baptism. Of those we can think of only two that came to know about our version of the good news through the door-to-door preaching work. All the rest were contacted by some other means, usually family or workmates.
This should make sense to all of us since we are asking people to make a drastic, life-altering decision. Would you change your life and risk everything that you hold dear because some stranger knocked on your door? Not likely. However, if a friend or an associate whom you’ve known for some time were to talk with you convincingly over a period of time, that is far more likely to have an effect.
In an effort to deconstruct the indoctrination that has so strongly affected our thinking for years, let us go over a typical publication reference used to justify the emphasis we place on this particular preaching method.
Specious Reasoning
We have this from the 1988 Kingdom Ministry under the subtitle “What the House-to-House Work Accomplishes”.
3 As indicated at Ezekiel 33:33 and 38:23, our house-to-house preaching activity plays an important part in the sanctification of Jehovah’s name. The good news of the Kingdom is set squarely before individual householders, giving them opportunity to show where they stand. (2 Thess. 1:8-10) Hopefully, they will be moved to take their stand on Jehovah’s side and receive life.—Matt. 24:14; John 17:3.
4 Regular house-to-house work also strengthens our hope in God’s promises. Our ability to use the Bible effectively is enhanced. We are aided in overcoming the fear of men. Greater empathy can be cultivated as we note firsthand what people suffer because of not knowing Jehovah and not living by his righteous standards. We are also helped to develop the fruitage of God’s spirit in our own lives.—Gal. 5:22, 23.
Let’s break down the 1988 kingdom ministry article thought by thought:
“As indicated at Ezekiel 33:33 and 38:23, our house-to-house preaching activity plays an important part in the sanctification of Jehovah’s name.”
Ezekiel 33:33 says: “And when it comes true—and it will come true—they will have to know that a prophet has been among them.” If we are sanctifying Jehovah’s name by the truthfulness of our prophetic preaching work, then we have failed utterly. Prediction after prediction has failed. The great tribulation was to begin in 1914, then 1925, then likely sometime in the 40s, and again in 1975. We have redefined the generation prophecy on average once every ten years. Based on this, our house-to-house preaching has brought reproach on God’s name, not sanctification.
Ezekiel 38:23 says: “And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.” It is true that we have made the translation of YHWH as “Jehovah” very well known. But this is not a fulfillment of Jehovah’s words through Ezekiel. It isn’t knowing God’s name that counts, but understanding the character that the name represents, as demonstrated by Moses’ question to Jehovah. (Ex 3:13-15) Again, not something we have accomplished by going from door to door.
“The good news of the Kingdom is set squarely before individual householders, giving them opportunity to show where they stand. (2 Thess. 1:8-10) Hopefully, they will be moved to take their stand on Jehovah’s side and receive life.—Matt. 24:14; John 17:3.”
This is yet another example of eisegetical interpretation. Using Paul’s words to the Thessalonians, our publications imply that the householder’s response to our doorstep preaching is a life-and-death matter. If we read the context of Paul’s words we understand that the destruction comes upon those who have been making tribulation for Christians. Paul is speaking about enemies of the truth who have been persecuting Christ’s brothers. That is hardly a scenario that fits every man, woman and child on the planet. (2 Thess. 1:6)
“Regular house-to-house work also strengthens our hope in God’s promises. Our ability to use the Bible effectively is enhanced. We are aided in overcoming the fear of men. Greater empathy can be cultivated as we note firsthand what people suffer because of not knowing Jehovah and not living by his righteous standards. We are also helped to develop the fruitage of God’s spirit in our own lives.—Gal. 5:22, 23.”
There was a time that this paragraph would have made sense to me. But I can now see it for what it is. The house-to-house work puts us in close proximity with our brothers for long periods of time. The conversation naturally turns to our understanding of God’s promises which have been skewed by the warped teaching of the other sheep, causing us to believe that everyone but us will die at Armageddon for all time, and that we’ll end up with the whole planet to ourselves. We know exactly what Jehovah has planned for us, ignoring Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 13:12.
As for using the Bible more effectively, how often do we even take it out at the door? In a Scriptural debate, most of us would be lost in trying to find a rebuttal Scripture. And as for overcoming the fear of men, the truth is the complete opposite. To a very great extent we go out in the door-to-door work because we are afraid of men. We are afraid that our hours will be too low. We feel guilty for bringing the congregation average down. We worry that we may lose privileges in the congregation if our hours don’t measure up. The elders will have to talk to us.
As for greater empathy being cultivated as a result of the door-to-door work, it is hard to understand how that can be the case. When a publisher out in a car group points to a beautiful home and says, “That’s where I want to live after Armageddon”, is he showing empathy for the suffering of people?
Despising Shame
In describing Jesus as the perfecter of our faith, the writer of Hebrews states: “For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)
What did he mean by “despising shame”? To understand that better we should look at Jesus’ own words at Luke 14:27 which reads: “Whoever does not carry his torture stake and come after me cannot be my disciple.”
According to verse 25 of that passage, Jesus was speaking to large crowds. Those people did not know he was going to die on a torture stake. So why would he use that metaphor? To us, the torture stake (or cross, as many view it) was simply the means by which Jesus was executed. However, to his Hebrew audience the phrase, “carry his torture stake”, would conjure up an image of a person of the worst sort; one despised and rejected by family, friends, and society. It was the most shameful way for a person to die. As Jesus said in the preceding verse, we have to be willing and prepared to give up everything we hold dear, even “father and mother and wife and children”, to be a disciple of his. (Luke 14:26)
For those of us who have come to the realization that we can no longer in good conscience continue to promote the teachings and interests of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, we are facing – perhaps for the first time in our lives – a situation where we too must carry our torture stake, and like our Lord, despise the shame that will be heaped upon us by family and friends who will come to view us as a hated apostate.
The Pearl of Great Value
“Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a traveling merchant seeking fine pearls. 46 Upon finding one pearl of high value, he went away and promptly sold all the things he had and bought it.” (Mt 13:45, 46)
I used to think this applied to me because I had found the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Well, I didn’t really find it. I grew up in it. But still, I held it is a pearl of great value. Over the last few years I have come to appreciate wonderful truths of God’s word that have been opened up to me through personal Bible study and the association with all of you through these websites. I have truly come to understand what the pearl of great value means. For the first time in my life I have come to realize that I too have the hope of sharing in the reward Jesus extended to all those exercising faith in him; the reward of becoming a child of God. (John 1:12; Romans 8:12) There is no material possession, no personal relationship, no other reward of greater value. It truly is worth selling all we own to possess this one pearl.
We do not really know what our Father has in store for us. We do not need to know. We are like the children of an extremely wealthy and exceedingly good and kind man. We know we are in his will and that we have an inheritance, but we do not know precisely what it is. Nevertheless, we have such trust in the goodness and justness of this man that we are willing to risk everything on the belief that he will not let us down. That is the essence of faith.
Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him. (He 11:6)
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“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1Co 2:9, 10)
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Archived Comments
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Comment by Nick O. on 2015-08-02 21:57:39
Excellent article Meleti! Also very nice job with the new layout!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-03 00:59:30
Thanks Nick O. It still needs some work, but we're getting there.
Comment by Anjinsan on 2015-08-03 04:24:27
Good article with great ideas. Thanks.
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-08-03 05:00:16
Love the new site,great work, the old format was similar to a lot of other sites on the net,glad you personalised it.
Through the beorean pickets I now have direct contact with sister Billy,I wish I could find more Aussies that see the value of what is being discussed here.
Jehovah's blessing be with you all.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-03 08:13:37
Maybe more will start to use the Congregations link to find each other.
Reply by Chris on 2015-08-03 15:18:27
I would love to find exJWs in my area. :(
Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-03 23:25:03
If you like to be listed on the map, use the form on the Congregations page, then others in your area can contact you and you can start meeting together!
Reply by Chris on 2015-08-04 21:31:31
Thank you Alex
Reply by Silas silvanus on 2015-08-21 01:30:15
One observation with relation to the new site. The domain name www.meletivivlon.com gives the impression this is a personal web site. If the domain were to be www.beroeanpickets.com or something similar then it would not give the impression of this web site being personal or under the control of one person. Transparency is not served by keeping the domain name www.meletivivlon.com
In keeping with greater transparency, those being asked to donate have the moral right to see where the money has gone and perhaps even a say as to how it is used. I know a lot of the work is voluntary and that's laudable however those taking the lead in administrating the site should be more than willing to show transparency.
Addressing our concerns of any possible future corruption of the site by saying we are free to choose to stay or go, to participate or not, is a "cop out" in my opinion. To allow people to firstly invest an interest in the work you have done, perhaps even an emotional interest , and then to say :
"I can give you all the promises in the world that this will not happen to us, but only God and Christ can make promises that never fail. Therefore, it will be up to you to keep us in check. This is why the commenting feature will continue. If the day should ever come when we stop listening and begin to seek our own glory, then you must vote with your feet as many of you have already done with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.."
This is not a good starting point. Who is it that could give these promises. You speak in the singular so I must assume you are solely responsible. I am not a follower of man. Been there done that. I'm all sure we follow truth alone and Christ as our spiritual head. We should all feed each other spiritually according to our capacities. We are all brothers. You also say, "if we ever stop listening". Listening implies you get the sense of what we the readers are saying and make whatever reasonable adjustments can be made. From the old website to the new, all I see is a few tweaks. No real change. How have you shown an attempt to address the concerns of many?
When you say " it will be up to you to keep us in check". What do you mean by this. How can we keep the publishers of articles on this site in check. Can we receive a pre published or proposed article prior to it being published on the site so that we can express some viewpoint s on it?
I have never seen an article rewritten with adjustments included from those commenting. It is therefore assumed that the publishers of articles on this web site, while allowing commenting will not adjust what has been published.
Many would feel intimidated or feel it useless therefore to try such a thing through the commenting feature.
while I have enjoyed many of the articles on this site, I believe this web site can only ever serve a limited purpose. We know scripturally speaking Christ can only be with us "whenever two or more are gathered together in his name". I do believe this is vital to seeking truth. The interchange one has when face to face can not be replaced with a commenting feature on a web site.
I still hold out hope for you brothers administering this domain but that hope has faded somewhat.
I would be looking forward to more "real" changes in the not too distant future.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-21 06:52:31
Silas,
I agree that http://www.beroeanpickets.com makes for a better site name. You will soon be able to type that into your URL and get to the site. However, it will still resolve to meletivivlon.com for two reasons: The first is technical. All the links in Wordpress (we use the wordpress engine for the site) are based on the meletivivlon.com domain name. To change them all now would require more work that any in our group have time for. The second reason is that it is now recognized by all the major search engines and helping people find the site is more important than the perception that the name may give to some who are suspicious of our intent or the direction we may be heading.
You say, "Transparency is not served by keeping the domain name http://www.meletivivlon.com" I don't see how this is true. If I had wanted to create the illusion that this is a group web site from the start, then I would have settled on www.beroeanpickets.com from the start, but wouldn't that be the opposite of transparency? The site started out as a one-man exercise. That is the transparent truth. It has grown and changed. There are now others who have joined and some of them contribute articles according to the time they have available. Others contribute their time and resources in other valuable ways. But I make no bones about the makeup of the site. I do not pretend to be something I (and we) are not. So I don't see what your concern is.
As for transparency with regard to where the money goes, that is our intent. As money comes in, we will provide information as to how it is being used.
You ask, "Can we receive a pre-published or proposed article prior to it being published on the site so that we can express our viewpoints on it?"
Who exactly is this "we" you speak of? And exactly how will this work?
You state: "I have never seen an article rewritten with adjustments included from those commenting. It is therefore assumed that the publishers of articles on this web site, while allowing commenting will not adjust what has been published."
Could it be that something I, or others, have written does not agree with your personal understanding of Scripture? If so, you have a right to comment and if your comment shows us that we are inaccurate in our Scriptural understanding on some point, we will change it. I don't intend to rewrite history and change old articles. That would be dishonest. However, we will correct the misapplication of Scripture in an updated article and make a reference between the two so that readers will not be misled.
You state, "Listening implies you get the sense of what we the readers are saying and make whatever reasonable adjustments can be made. From the old website to the new, all I see is a few tweaks. No real change. How have you shown an attempt to address the concerns of many?"
What "concerns of many" do you speak of? You strongly imply that we don't listen (I speak for the group now) and don't make necessary changes, but it is most unfair of you to state this before the world without giving some examples for us to address. Please do so.Reply by Silas silvanus on 2015-08-21 20:22:13
Thanks Meleti.
I understand technical issues may prevent you from the domain name change. Perhaps something to work on in the future.
I get the impression however that you are happy to continue to administer the site as your own..
Your comment: " The site started out as a one man exercise. That is the transparent truth. It has grown and changed. .... I make no bones about the makeup of the site."
If donations of time, people's resourses and money are being received and administered solely by you and everyone donating knows this; which would appear to be the case; then fine.
If however your intention was to expand to being a "brotherhood" and not a one man exercise, then it needs to change fundamentally. I don't see the change.
As I stated... " I am not a follower of man. Been there, done that. ...we follow Christ and truth .....We should feed each other according to our capacities."
You ask me of the concerns of many. What concerns?
My reply is the very concern you felt compelled to write about in this and follow on articles.
That of corruption. I address this in my previous comment but I notice you didn't feel the need to comment on it. ( paragraps 3,4,5 of my previous comment.) This is what I mean about truly listening.
Please. Don't get me wrong Meleti. I consider myself your brother. I have a similar background to you in many respects. I served in bethel for many years, have been an elder for decades, served in 4 different languages, etc. My intentions are not to disparage your work. My intention is to be a true Beroean and carefully examine all things.
You mentioned a few other points you would like me to expand on. Perhaps I can do that later on.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-21 20:45:26
I'm not sure what you mean by "expand to being a brotherhood". Could you please explain.
I'm glad you are not a follower of men. On that we can agree.
How can I comment on corruption when there is no evidence of corruption. Are you accusing me of corruption on my own site??? If so then have the decency to speak facts and not vague innuendo. You say you consider yourself my brother. Easy words, but your actions speak of another motivation. You say you are not a follower of men. "Been there, done that", you say. Well, I've suffered false slander from those pretending to be my brothers. Been there, done that. If you have nothing constructive to offer, then go elsewhere.Reply by Silas Silvanus on 2015-08-21 23:13:49
Meleti,
We appear to be going round in circles. You are so intent on defending you current position that you can't see the points I am wanting to make.
I was of course talking about the potential for future corruption as you were in this post as well.
I note however you still haven't commented on my first comment (paragraphs 3-5)
Your only recourse is to dismiss me. I fear that if I was to escalate this discussion you would accommodate me. Therefore in the interests of peace I will make this my last comment.
All the best to you and your subscribers.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-22 08:14:42
To everyone reading this exchange between myself and Silas, there is a good object lesson here that we can all learn from.
Silas has left us, but this exchange illustrate a rule we follow on this site.
While we welcome honest and candid questions about the nature of the site, our goals, and most of all our scriptural reasoning, we do not tolerate sniping attacks on the character of anyone. We seek to maintain a protected environment that even the most insecure of brothers and sisters will feel safe in.
At first blush, it can be difficult to distinguish a baseless attacker from a genuinely concerned reader. One tactic that quickly demonstrates the true intent of a person is this: Whoever asks the first question is obligated to give the first answer.
We don't accept the premise that "I asked first, so you have to answer first." Such a tactic keeps one party on the defensive, and any interchange that truly builds up must not be one of offense and defense, but of mutual respect and sharing.
So by making the first questioner responsible for giving the first answer when called upon to do so, we can quickly keep an exchange from become adversarial. This technique we have learned over the years of moderating the site.
To illustrate, in the exchange between myself and Silas, he made a number of allegations that called into question my character and demanded that I comment on them. He twice said I'd failed to respond to paragraphs 3-5 of his original comment.
However, if you review my first response to him, I do comment on them, but not in the way he wanted. He wanted me to defend my position, but to do so I would have had to accept his premise, thus giving undeserved validity to it. Instead, I chose to employ the principle found at Proverbs 18:17 to challenge his premise by asking him for clarification on a number of points. He fails to give this but instead implies I'm avoiding addressing the issues he's raised.
Is it not true that a person who is genuinely concerned about something and who has a sound basis for the concern will have no problem in stating that basis and answering any questions that will help the one he is questioning to better address and answer those concerns? A person whose only out to attack or discredit will be unable to comply with the requirement to be the first to answer, because it undermines his tactic of keeping the other person off balance and on the defensive.
I would encourage all to use this methodology if your own comments are being attacked and rest assured that if anything gets out of hand and any of you are being unfairly attacked, the moderators (of which I am one) will step in quickly. Our goal is the free interchange of ideas, and that can only be accomplished in a climate of peace.
Comment by Vusi on 2015-08-03 14:21:07
Hi! I have been reading this site for about 18 months. I would like to know if there any awakened witnesses in South Africa who enjoy this site.
I am in Durban. I have stepped down as an elder 3 years ago due to awakening.
Keep up the good Bible research.
Thanks.
Vusi.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-03 19:37:40
Hi Vusi,
You should take advantage of the Congregations menu option. Enter your information and it will help others nearby to find you. I'll be putting out an article on that soon.
MeletiReply by Amitafal on 2016-12-27 10:52:58
Hi Meleti
How do we use this Cong menu- I haven't noticed it and would love to be in contact with others. We know at least 8 in our cong- what a relief so far. Thank you for your helpReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-27 23:27:47
What do you mean by "the Cong menu"?
Reply by Anonymous on 2017-03-14 14:43:41
I think he means the Congregation Menu option you refered to. I too don't see a tab for that.
Comment by Chris on 2015-08-03 15:16:33
Love the new site. So user friendly. :). I love this topic. You can go the same conclusions I have. Have you been to www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com ? Also, why do you stay in when the bible says "come out of her". Lot didn't stay in so why does anyone else? Family? Friends? Fear?
Reply by on 2015-08-03 15:17:25
Sorry. You came** not you can go.
Reply by Chris on 2015-08-03 15:19:08
You came*. Not you can go
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-03 19:38:02
Thanks Chris. I'm glad you like it.
Reply by on 2015-08-04 10:44:19
Thanks for the reference to the Friends of JW site. I found a real enlightening article about the cross vs. torture stake. I appreciated that they were not dogmatic about their position (they believe it was a cross) and admitted they could not 'prove' their case, but showed that there is a preponderance of evidence that Christ was put to death on a cross. I tend to agree with WT that crosses should not be used as jewelry or worshiped or put on churches. Even though people that have and use crosses claim they are not really worshipping them, it surely seems like they are. However, it also seems that WT has misrepresented the cross/stake issue. One good point they made was that Christ was not likely nailed through the wrists, since there are major arteries there, and he would have bled to death quickly, rather that lasting some six hours.
My take on this is that WT and Rutherford in particular wanted to sever all ties and resemblances to any other religion, so they came out with this anti-cross position primarily to highlight how different they were, rather than on the merits of the case. A number of references WT quotes to back up the stake position are very old, and they selectively quote them to try to bolster their position, and even quote from sources that believe it was a cross, but they so distort the reference it makes it appear they have the opposite position; a dishonest and misleading practice at best. If they told the real facts of the matter, that Jesus probably was put to death on cross, even though crosses should not be used in idolatry, it would weaken their anti-Christendom aloofness. I feel they have really been disingenuous in this matter.
Anyway, thanks again for this useful and enlightening web site.Reply by Chris on 2015-08-04 21:36:41
Yes. Rutherford did want to severe all ties that down to the cross symbol. He even wanted to decipher between Bible Students and his followers. He changed even everything Russell taught. They no longer have anything in common. Some things are the same. But they have changed so much that we are so much different than them. Glad you like the site. You will find exJWs awake but still active JWs and Bible Students. Spread the word. ?
Comment by father jack p's on 2015-08-03 15:58:02
Great article again meleti . Yet again i have noticed the very same things in my own in dependant bible research . The witnesses seem to think that if a person or organisation do not preach from door to door then they are failing to live up the command to preach .In reality though as far as I am aware there is not one single account in the bible that describes the apostles ever doing that . There's accounts about market places , synagogues . The Temple . On mountains by lakeside and rivers public squares etc . Wherever there were large numbers of people . In fact these methods make much more sense than the systematic door to door ministry for it is possible to reach many people with a single discourse . Handy when the harvest is great but the workers are few . Where as a door to door ministry is time consuming and just reaches those in the home that's presuming that they are in . Most of the time here in the UK it was just banging on empty houses and then counting the time . It never made sense to me . Your comments in the articles start and finish sound very much like Paul s words at Phil chapter 3 which are so often misquoted by the Watchtower to refer to things like higher education , but actually refer to his life in his former religion with its emphasis on salvation by works of law . Sounds familiar doesn't it . Keep up the good work . Thanks kev c
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-03 19:38:48
Those are excellent points, Kev. So what does "father jack p's" stand for? Just curious.
Reply by on 2015-08-04 13:33:59
Meleti father jack is a fictional character from a sitcom aired on british tv . Its based on an extremely light hearted look at organised religion . While many would find it offensive and controversial it is also full of irony and sarcasm . The alias just reminds me of the need not to take myself too serious all the time its incredible how religious people sometimes can show themselves heated up while discussing doctrine even if none of us really know the real answer . I think we should not lose our sense of humour . Theres always a time to laugh . Especially at ourselves . Ecclesiastes 3 v 4 ps , ps was a typing error . Ha ha uhhh .
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-04 13:55:10
Thanks Kev. Always a pleasure to hear from you.
Comment by billy on 2015-08-04 15:45:27
I thank you too Meleti for all your effort and hard work - it is very exciting to be on the journey with all the brothers and sisters searching for Truth in an atmosphere of freedom of speech - such a contrast to feeling the oppressive weight of the WT organization
i remember making comments to different ones in the congregation too regarding informal witnessing - we could be so much more creative in reaching people with Jesus message - the rigidity of door to door is burdensome (even though i didn't mind meeting my neighbors) so much time being spent in empty neighborhoods - actually being involved with people in everyday life presents so many opportunities for shinning our lights an spreading the message - i remember when i was growing up the witnesses would come to our door and we never trusted them because they were strangers - it was only when i left high school that i was prepared to listen to the message by an old school friend
showing love to people is what will open peoples hearts to Jesus message
its wonderful to start connecting with members like wild olive - look forward to meeting all lovers of real truth
Comment by Carlitos on 2015-08-05 15:06:21
I don't know too many brothers or sisters with the spiritual skills needed to preach in places of worship or marketplaces. We would meet more people who are familiar with the Scriptures who would tear some of our silly and ridiculous doctrines to shreds. It's easy at the door to lean on individuals with limited or no Bible knowledge. Besides, what message would we preach? Live forever on Earth to play with pandas and lions? Is this this the message our Master wanted us to preach? Uh-oh, this comment make take you longer than thirty seconds to read. Forgive me, Meleti.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-05 15:25:30
:)
Reply by Ben on 2017-06-07 19:18:13
I, too, don't know of many JWs with the skills to preach in places of worship or marketplaces, but I go further than you; I don't know of many who are skilled enough to preach door-to-door. In former decades, it seems that JWs were more skilled, but lately, JWdom has been "dumbing down", and individual JWs just aren't what they used to be; they have neither the knowledge, understanding, skills, zeal, boldness, and, I think, even intelligence, of JWs of times past.
I remember going to district conventions in the 1960's and 70's and seeing the adults gather at tables by motel pools at night. They would have deep, exciting discussions about doctrine and prophecy. JWs now just don't/can't do that any more. Those days are gone. I don't the organization even wants them to do that now.Reply by Tony McGurk on 2018-05-16 15:02:52
Nowadays from what I've seen on Youtube it seems to be a case of just refer everyone to the website
Comment by CP on 2015-08-05 18:58:20
Hi Meleti,
I would like to thank you because nobody has described so good the way I felt when I left the organization in this article.
It was a hard awakening to realize that the religión I was raised and in which I raised my two sons forms part of the Babilon the Great like any other religion.
It has been a blessing to find your blog, which helped me a lot.
Thank you again : )
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-08-05 22:12:20
@ anonymous, I posted a comment on the friends of Jehovah's witnesses site about the issue of cross or stake, I believe that Jesus did die on a cross and false religion turned it into an idol.
How I came to this conclusion surprised even me, I will save it for another day.
I wonder how many have been following the debacle in the royal commission in Australia into institutional child abuse,if ever there was a reason to mistrust the GB it's out in the open now, I encourage all to have a look
Comment by LaRhonda on 2015-08-09 19:02:38
Well Done! I read the article word for word to my husband and he was impressed. He said, "Not only are you willing to jump ship, but willing to tread water".
I really appreciate your sharing your feelings and thoughts. I have felt many of the same things for years. I know now that I made the right decision to just walk away. I've learned so much simply by interacting with the brothers and sisters here and on "Discuss the Truth", personal Bible reading and heartfelt prayer to The Most High Yahuah through His Son Yahshua.
May you be blessed and sustained. Shalom
Comment by Cooljazz on 2015-08-09 19:12:04
Just testing to see if I'm still signed in. Also enjoyed the article.
Comment by Susan on 2015-08-13 20:05:50
I've been doing some reading on the first 3 centuries of the early church, and wondered too if they actually went door to door preaching because, consider how dangerous it was just to BE a Christian during that time?
Read the full letter exchange between Pliny the Younger and Trajan.
And from H.A. Drake's reference to martyr trials, this amazing record that must be a candidate for the title of World's Shortest Trial:
"You are a bishop?"
"Yes, I am."
You were!"
Comment by Skye on 2015-08-14 17:24:13
Meleti, I don't have a group in my home, but if anyone wants to meet up with me for discussions, I would be happy to do that. Perhaps you could advise me. Thank you.
Comment by Diego Phillipe on 2015-11-01 18:46:25
Beautifully written. I share your views 100%.
Comment by StillJW(I think) on 2016-01-08 23:46:14
Great article! I am presently asking myself this same question. Please let us know when you have figured out how to put ex-JWs who want to meet and share scriptural thoughts in touch. Thank you
Comment by In the Country of the Blind…. | biblodiac on 2016-02-21 14:20:17
[…] Where Else Can We Go? […]
Comment by Anonymous on 2016-03-02 23:42:47
Wonderful article. Excellent exposition of simple but deep truths overlooked by millions. The feelings described are very close to home. May Jehovah and his son continue to supply you his HS.
Comment by Bret on 2016-10-15 16:59:04
I realy enjoyed the article and many of the ideas...
I think Russell was onto something good with the idea of house church, or meeting in the homes and no owning buildings and the whole thing that comes along with organized "Religion". I enjoy also the Bible Students and especially the Dawn publications and web site. The only problem with them is many are still stuck on chronology...
But the basics are good, the kingdom, death sleep, the "Ransom for all" not "all sorts of", and the whole purpose of this age is gathering the bride class "sons of God" in order to redeem mankind..
Comment by Amitafal on 2016-12-28 13:32:26
Hi Meleti
Thank you for your hard work on this site.
Is there any way we can link up with other brothers and sisters via their email - that live near us?
If we could that would be great.
Many thanks
Comment by RICHARD TAZZYMAN on 2017-03-01 19:12:16
Hello,Read your site"Beroean Pickets.I was a JW FOR OVER 45years in Australia.After leaving them I found the Bible Students,the ones the JWs said "They have all died out".We have no Org,but are independant groups.We have no Halls,we meet in homes or rented buildings.Each group has ties with other groups.We do not preach from door to door,But preach gods word where & when we are able.The truth we follow is a different kind than what the man controlled JWs follow.I would love to hear from you or any Brothers,Sisters in Australia that have left the witnesess & are looking for spiritual fellowship.Regards Richard
Reply by Tony McGurk on 2018-05-16 06:37:36
Hi Richard, I DA'd about 3 years ago, been to many churches since but not convinced of "regular" church doctrine. Now doing it alone & feel there is nowhere to turn for fellowship. I'm in Launceston.
Reply by R.Tazzyman on 2018-05-16 20:28:56
Hello Tony,So good to hear from you.We have Just returned from a small convention in a town called Wyee out of Sydney,we has a ex Jw Baptised at this convention who recently found that the original Bible students are still alive & following The truth that sets us free! We have a convention in Angelsea,Just out of Geelong every year during the Australia day weekend as well as a convention on the Sunshine coast,Qld during the month of October.As well as that we also have a International convention every two years in Poland,this of course besides all of the other conventions in the rest of the world.I would love to contact you & have further discussions with you via my e/mail address wich is rtazzyman@dodo.com.au May Jehovah help you in your search for the Truth,Your Bro in Christ,Richard.
Reply by Anonymous on 2019-05-10 21:57:47
Hi Tony: Not sure if I've contacted you before but I'm in the Hobart area.
Comment by Ken Rosenberg on 2017-03-29 16:25:41
I would advise the friends to remain as Jehovah's Witnesses, but to keep their mouths shut regarding the matter of the man of lawlessness.
Did David or the faithful Israelites abandon Israel when Saul became an apostate? What about Solomon and all the other wicked kings? Is there any mention of Israelites leaving when Aaron crafted the Golden Calf? Were not the 7 congregations corrupt?
Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
Matthew 10:16 “Look! I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves.
How many times has Jehovah's People gone apostate? Did Jehovah exclude Moses and the faithful Israelites from the punishment of the Israelites who reported negatively on the promised land and forced them to wonder the desert for 40 years?
You do not need to agree with the watchtower, but you also don't have to publicize your beliefs, were the Israelites condemned for disobeying orders of Jerobaom and Manasseh? No. When preaching door to door, preach about Biblical truths, not false doctrines. Not all of us should be teachers, but we should all preach the good news, Sharing simple Biblical truths.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-30 08:06:55
I disagree Ken. Rather than keeping our mouths shut, we have to let our light shine. (Acts 5:28, 29)
Your premise here and in your lengthy comment on the man of lawlessness seems to take the position that Israel is equivalent to JW.org. That is not the case. Israel is equivalent to Christianity.
We appreciate everyone who comes to share their thoughts and research. As for personal opinions, advice, and counsel...well, best to be sparing with those.Reply by Anonymous on 2018-12-23 08:36:03
Meleti, I see Ken’s points, and yours. We don’t need to voluntarily throw ourselves into the fire ... discretion is a good option.
Comment by Andres on 2017-05-11 22:35:03
Hola a todos. Acabo de leer este comentario y es realmente magnífico. Quisiera tener un grupo de hermanos aquí en bogota, Colombia, para poder compartir.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-05-12 08:30:40
Hola Andrés. Eso sería maravilloso. Esto siendo el caso, querrás saber que estamos trabajando en un sitio en español que esperamos tener listo dentro de un mes.
Comment by Anonymous on 2018-04-04 13:15:28
Any updates on trying to create some way to network with others who have not lost faith but can see the errors of the Org?
Reply by R.Tazzyman on 2018-05-17 03:39:05
Hello Anonymous,I was a JW For many years,& now a bible student.Contact me if you want to.
Comment by Chaperone on 2019-06-18 02:28:15
I clearly agree with you that we should continue in false religion just because we think there is no where to go.
But i still need help with regards to these house churches. I believe in the first century there were elders, ministrial servants and missionaries. How will this arrangement fit with house churches? How were these elders chosen and how will we choose ours?
RegardsReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-06-18 11:40:45
The 12th apostle was selected from a choice of two that were drawn from the congregation. In other words, the 11 did not choose these two but the brothers and sisters in the congregation at the time put them forward as candidates and then lots were thrown. Likewise with the first ministerial servants. The apostles asked the brothers to find men who made certain qualifications and then they appointed them but the men were chosen by the congregation. Since there is nothing in the Bible to indicate a centralized governing body making all the appointments, I think we have to go with what we have and allow the Spirit to work to all members of the congregation to put forward candidates that they feel could handle the administrative tasks that come up from time to time
Comment by Simone on 2019-06-20 22:46:54
Eric your contact form is not working please contact me a out an urgent high profile case 316-423-4370
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-06-21 16:24:20
I tried calling, but was told that my call cannot be completed as dialed. Why not try sending me an email at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com
Comment by Anonymous on 2019-07-03 12:20:29
I am moved to comment on this whole narrative. Let me first confess that I have been disfellowshiped since 2016. I watched one of your videos to the end. You sound like somebody with clear mind and strong faith. But I am bothered with few questions. Can you equate Jesus Christ with any human in terms of perfection? How come he chose apostles like Judas Iscariot and Peter, who obviously made a lot of mistake, even after receiving Holy Spirit, in the case of Peter? From my little understanding of nature, Jehovah appears to be a well organized God. How will a system of true worship of Him be without proper organization? How can any new system of worship, to be formed today, fit into fulfillment of the bible prophesies over the years? Remember, we are living in the last days. Can you really find another organization that is better that JW today.
We all see lapses typical of human, but this does not ruled out that Jehovah puts His eyes in an organization today. What really matter is the willingness to adjust. Today I am disfellowship, but I know that adjustment will come one day.
I am adding my voice here because you sound like person who loves truth, but if we are not careful that love of truth can be stolen by Satan.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-07-03 13:52:07
You make some good points, but others are based on faulty assumptions. For instance, how do you know we are in the last days?
If you are suggesting we overlook the sins of the organization, excusing them as imperfections, then why not do the same for the sins of other church leadership, like the Catholics or the Baptists?Reply by Anonymous on 2019-07-03 22:55:29
Let me quickly respond to some of these, such as "how do you know we are in the last days?". Well, even the churches now know we are living in the last days. (2 Ti 3:1-5) If World War I did not fulfill Mt 24:7, neither would World War II or any other war do so, because the same logic would apply. With your background, you may also testify to it that Mt 24:14 is being fulfill. It would be impossible if Jehovah hand is not on the work, especially in the face of satanic opposition.
Jesus made illustration of the weed and the wheat. May be that illustration outlined chain of events. If so can we say the event of planting the wheat is taking place today? How come a congregation formed by Jesus Christ, and was flourishing at the time, gradually collapse after the death of the apostles? How come ordinary people like me from remote background now have access to the truth of the bible - something that would be impossible somewhere after the death of the apostles?
Regarding "the sins of the organization", perhaps the nation of Israel committed more sins than this organization. Imagine Aaron, a spokesperson for Moses, building a golden calf for Israel to worship. Why did Jehovah not form a new nation? No. Jehovah did not do that because the nation was formed on a solid foundation - a seed is to be revealed through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With the appearance of Jesus Christ, however, Jehovah could now abandon the nation. But something so significant here is that Jehovah warned the nation of Israel, in advance, that they will be abandoned.(Ho 2:23, Mt 21:43, 23:38) Will it not make sense for you to look through the scriptures and see how Jehovah indicated it, in advance, to abandon an organization He has established and form another one? Or He has not even formed any one at all? Then the preaching work is being done blindly. Then it must have been organised by Satan and Jehovah to imitate him. No. Jehovah does not imitate anything, rather Satan tries to imitate Jehovah.
Finally, talking about tolerating "sins of other church leadership", the churches do not seem fit into organization that will be in the gathering of the wheat in Jesus parable. Just imagine Jesus Christ being father to himself as son, or a person dies and lives on in the grave, to mention just a few. These are direct planting of weed among the wheat, done long ago. For anyone to think today that no organisation has yet been formed for the Congregation of the Christ will seriously be missing the point, particularly from point of view of the parable of the wheat and weed.
I have spent some time on this matter, because outside religion, we all know the times now are difficult and there is need to rethink and rethink. Satan will stop at nothing to create more havoc (Rev 12:12) possibly making the stars to fall from heaven, including some members of the Governing Body.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-07-04 09:10:28
You raise many valid objections. I'll try to deal with them one at a time.
“even the churches now know we are living in the last days. (2 Ti 3:1-5)”
I would recommend you read the next two verses: 6 and 7. You’ll see that Paul’s words to Timothy apply to the Christian congregation not the world in general. Then read Acts 2:17 to see that they were living in the last days. As for whether we are living in the last days now of our current system of things, the worldwide system of things that is, we cannot know. Jesus told us that he would come at a time we expected not to be. See Matthew 24:44. A careful read of the so-called composite sign of the last days in the opening verses of Matthew chapter 24 indicates that Jesus wasn’t giving us an indication of how to identify the last days but rather warning us against things that we would assume indicated his presence was nigh.
Adherence to this philosophy which ignores the advice of our Lord is let us to reinterpret the meaning of Matthew 24:34 to the point of ridiculousness, the current overlapping generation doctrine being the latest manifestation of this.
As for Matthew 24:14 applying to our day, consider the context. Jesus is talking about the destruction of the nation of Israel and that prior to that destruction the good news would be preached in all the inhabited earth. But the word he uses isn’t exclusively referring to the planet but rather to all the land. Check it out in the interlinear for yourself. I recommend BibleHub.com. This coincides with what Paul said in Colossians 1:23.
Regarding the second paragraph, I once thought as you did. But I realize now that was the organization’s philosophy. Once I began to look elsewhere I realized that Bible truth is available for all. In fact it was reading the Bible without the aid of the organization’s publications that helped me understand how many of their doctrines are false. They got some things the right, but they got many things wrong as well.
If you read through the articles on this site you will see just how many of their doctrines are false.
You are doing what all Jehovah’s Witnesses do we equating the organization with the nation of Israel. Let me ask you this, what was Jehovah’s organization once the nation of Israel was eradicated? Would you not agree that it was the Christian congregation, spiritual Israel that was Jehovah’s congregation? So in the second century or the third century or the fourth century what happened to Jehovah’s organization? Did it just disappear off the face of the earth? Or was it like ancient Israel which went apostate? Jehovah’s organization didn’t start in the first century and then disappear for 1900 years, only to reappear as Jehovah’s Witnesses. if we are going to compare it to ancient Israel as witnesses do, then we have to do it all the way. Therefore the Christian congregation went apostate after the apostles died – like ancient Israel did – but continued to be God’s organization. That means that all of Christendom is Jehovah’s organization. There is absolutely no basis for assuming that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the sole organization God is using. (I’m using the term “organization” only within the context of witness teaching because the term does not exist in the Bible and the concept also does not exist.)
If you look carefully at the wheat and the weeds illustration, you will notice that the wheat grows among the weeds. That means that there are wheat-like Christians going among weed-like Christians in every church and congregation. The idea that there has to be an organization to get the work done is not found in the Bible. Witnesses teach that everyone will be destroyed who doesn’t respond to their message. If that were truly the case, then an organization would be required to organize the worldwide preaching work. However, that premise is false. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that at Armageddon everyone will die.
However, let us accept for the sake of argument that the premise is true. In that case the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be the means by which God will save everybody, because if it were, how do you account for the fact that they’re not preaching to everybody. They is virtually no witness present in Muslim countries. That’s hundreds of millions right there. Their efforts in India are mainly among the Christian population. Throw in another 800 billion not reached. Their efforts in China are a drop in the bucket. Essentially, the worldwide preaching work hasn’t reached half of the world, over 3 billion people. Either Jehovah is doing the very bad job of things, or Jehovah’s Witnesses have got our premise wrong.
It is difficult to see all this because we are working from a false premise. I know that because I was too. The question that comes to mind always is if this is not the true organization than what is? And that is the flaw in the reasoning. The belief that there must be an organization and that we can only worship God if we are members in an organization.
I would encourage you to abandon that preconception and read the Bible carefully to see if indeed there was an organization after Christ. You see, while Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity nor hellfire – kudos to them – they teach something equally bad and possibly worse. They teach people not to reach out for the heavenly reward that was offered to all Christians. They say that the doors have closed. They have closed up the doors of the kingdom. This is the sin of the Pharisees. (Matthew 23:13) The doctrine of the other sheep is an abomination.
I have thoroughly examined all the doctrines of JW.org and if you want to verify what I say, here’s a link to the YouTube playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyyw76AUJTT0D0LbN7UuPKJxiNtu3Lgs0
Will