[From ws15/07 p. 14 for Sep. 7-13]
A man comes to your town. He stands in the village square, and proclaims that soon death and destruction will rain down upon you and your fellow citizens. Next, he tells you how to escape. Sacrifices must be made, but if you all follow his instructions, you will be saved.
Would you listen? Would you obey? Would you be blessed?
Jesus was such a prophet. He foretold the utter destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and he gave precise instructions on how to escape. He said that there would come a time when an enemy would besiege the city and that would be the sign for his listeners to flee in great haste. He even told them specifically what not to do. (Luke 21:20; Mt 24:15-20) These were clear, concise instructions linked to an easily identifiable, highly visible event. Some listened and obeyed. Most did not, and died horribly.
However, Jesus didn’t expect people to put faith in his words simply because he said so. He established his credentials as a true prophet by performing many miraculous healings and even resurrecting the dead.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not directly claim to be a prophet, yet they do explain Bible parables, visions, and signs in a way that constitutes prophetic interpretation. The meaning and chronology they apply to Bible prophecy constitutes prophecy in itself. So while they do not refer to themselves collectively as a prophet, they talk, the talk and walk, the walk. This week’s Watchtower study is just chock-full of speculative prophetic interpretations.
The Litmus Test for Prophets
Unlike Jesus, they do not perform miracles to establish their credentials. Still, all that the Samaritan woman needed to know that Jesus was a prophet was his ability to tell her things he could not otherwise have known. (John 4:17-19) Jesus record of prophetic accuracy is impeccable. What about the record of the Governing Body? In the 100-year history during which it claims to have served in the Christ-appointed capacity of Faithful Steward that dispenses spiritual food to the Lord’s slaves, have any of its prophetic interpretations come true? Would a century-long period of consistent prophetic re-entrenchment (or “refinements” as they like to refer to them) provide the basis for confidence in interpretations concerning how you should plan your future?
The litmus test the Bible provides for us to use to determine the validity of a prophet’s words is spelled out in the book of Deuteronomy.
“However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’” (De 18:21, 22)
Would you use an alarm clock that always malfunctioned and rang at the wrong time or failed to ring at all? What if it occasionally worked correctly? Would you use it then? It’s your alarm clock. It’s up to you whether you use it or not.
A Prophet Speaks
With the foregoing in mind, let us look at the prophetic statements and assumptions in this week’s study. We cannot prove them, because they have not happened. They might instill fear in us. Fear that if we don’t listen to what the prophet is telling us to do, we might die. But remember the words of God. When dealing with a false prophet, “you should not fear him.” (De 18:22)
Starting right off with paragraph 2, we have evidence of a recent failure.
“How can you possibly leave Jerusalem with so many troops surrounding it? Then, an amazing thing happens. Right before your very eyes, the Roman troops start to retreat! As foretold, their attack is being “cut short.” (Matt. 24:22)”
As the question for the paragraph shows, this happened in 66 C.E. So the days were cut short in 66 C.E.
However, we previously believed that the cutting short applied to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. which allowed some 97,000 Jews to survive.
“Then, in 70 C.E. General Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian, came up against the city, surrounded it with a fortification of pointed stakes, as Jesus had foretold, and brought the inhabitants to a pitiable state of starvation. It appeared that, if the siege lasted much longer, “no flesh” inside the city would survive. But, as Jesus had prophesied concerning this “great tribulation,” the greatest Jerusalem had ever experienced, “unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days.”—Mark 13:19, 20.”
“Providentially, the siege lasted only 142 days. But even then, plague, pestilence and the sword devoured 1,100,000, leaving 97,000 survivors to suffer being sold into slavery or into gladiatorship in the Roman arena. Thus, Jehovah’s “chosen ones” had fled from the doomed city. On that account Jehovah did not have to prolong the time of distress, but could execute vengeance in a short time, sparing 97,000 persons, thus saving some ‘flesh.’” (w74 11/15 p. 683)
So the cutting short applied to 70 C.E., but now it applies to 66 C.E. We say hindsight is 20/20. Yet, if the Governing Body failed to understand the historical fulfillment of a prophecy, how can we trust them to properly interpret prophecies that are still future? Further, the previous application shows a total inability even to reason logically. Does it make sense to you to say that Jehovah was cutting short the days to save some flesh on account of the chosen ones when the chosen ones were no longer in the city?
From here on in, there are so many assumptions being made in this article that we will get bogged down if we tried to address each one in detail. Instead, we will list them, because the onus is on the prophet to back up his own words. Carefully observe to see whether the Governing Body does that by using supporting scriptures, or whether it just expects us to believe.
The Beginning of the Great Tribulation
Under this subtitle they allege that the great tribulation refers to the destruction of Babylon the great. The Bible does not say that, and we offer no proof to support it, therefore this is assumption number 1. It may be true. It may not be. We offer no proof, hence the label, “assumption”.
Next, paragraph 4 alleges that the wicked clergy of Christendom have prostituted themselves with the leaders of this wicked world, but that the “clean, virginlike anointed” Jehovah’s Witnesses have stood in “stark contrast” to such ones. The leaders with whom the clergy have prostituted themselves “give support to the United Nations, an organization pictured by the ‘scarlet-colored wild beast’” of Revelation.
How can the Governing Body claim to be part of these “clean, virginlike anointed” when they too have cavorted with the scarlet-colored wild beast? From 1992 to 2001 (when their involvement was revealed in the media), the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses under the direction of the Governing Body held membership in the United Nations as a non-governmental organization, or NGO. To become an NGO they had to – in writing – stipulate that they share the ideals of the UN charter, and demonstrate an interest in United Nations issues, as well as a commitment to conduct effective information programs about UN activities. When they were found out, they broke their connection to the UN, and then implemented a campaign of disinformation to minimize their involvement. We were disinclined to attribute outright deception to their actions until reading this careful and well-documented analysis. (View it by clicking this link.)
Will We Be Painted with the Same Brush?
Paragraph 5 quotes from Zechariah 13:4-6 to prophesy that during the destruction of Babylon the great “some of the clergy of Christendom will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever a part of those false religions.” Assuming this application to be accurate (Assumption 2), we are confident that this will not be the case with the clergy of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Elders, traveling overseers, and branch committee members will be spared this ignominy. Why? Because they are not part of false religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses teach only accurate Bible truth. Yet, how will these escape when all the nations are attacking religion worldwide? Paragraph 6 presumes to answer the question by applying Matthew 24:22. The belief is that there is a secondary application of this verse, meaning that the destruction of Babylon the great will be cut short in a similar way to the cutting short of the siege of Jerusalem in 66 C.E. Since the Bible does not state that there is a secondary application of Matthew 24:22, we must label this assumption number 3.
Is this interpretation even logical? In the first century, the chosen ones were in Jerusalem and had to physically flee. Are we suggesting that the chosen ones – anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses – are inside Babylon the great and will have to flee somehow when Jehovah “cuts short” the destruction of the harlot? We claim to have all fled from Babylon long ago and are now safely ensconced in the ark-like earthly organization of God. Why then does God have to cut short the days of Babylon’s destruction to allow us to “escape” from within her? And where in the extensive account of her destruction in Revelation is any mention made of a period when it is cut short?
A Time of Testing and Judgment
Paragraph 7 states that after the destruction of false religious organizations – excluding Jehovah’s Witnesses, of course – “God’s people will flee to the refuge that Jehovah provides.” We don’t know what that refuge is, and no Scripture is provided to support this statement. In fact, when foretelling the sign of his presence and of the end of the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus makes no mention whatsoever of any refuge to which his people will have to flee, either literally or figuratively. We must label this assumption number 4. This is a particularly dangerous interpretation, because when paired with what we said in the November 15, 2013 Watchtower, it sets the stage for disaster.
“At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.” (w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17)
When a prophet with a 100-year-long history of failed predictions – the very definition of ‘false prophet’ – expects you to obey his command unconditionally, even when that command appears unsound, beware!
Paragraph 8 explains our belief that following the destruction of Babylon the Great “we will be the only ones following the example of the ancient prophet Daniel by continuing to worship our God no matter what.” Only Jehovah’s Witness constitute “my people” who will “get out of her” and escape her destruction: Assumption number 5.
Without breaking stride, we move into assumption 6. “No doubt God’s people will proclaim a hard-hitting judgment message.” This little prophetic gem springs from our interpretation of Rev. 16:21. Our message will be the “hailstones from heaven.” There is no scriptural precedent for this fanciful interpretation. Certainly, the Christians in Jerusalem were more concerned with fleeing than from going door to door to proclaim, “We told you so but now it's too late.”
The idea of a final judgment message when it is too late to repent and convert is not new among Jehovah's Witnesses. I've often wondered where the idea originated. In our hayday of types and antitypes, we taught that the final march and trumpet blast that brought down the walls of Jericho prefigured this condemnatory proclamation. It certainly seems like a very human reaction to decades of being mistreated, disdained, and dismissed as weirdos. A base human desire to justify oneself, to finally show the world that we were right all along and they were wrong, would be satisfied by such a work. Yet, would Jehovah have us engage in a work that is self-serving and contrary to the Christan spirit of love. (1Co 13:4-7) Jesus wept at contemplating what was coming upon Jerusalem. He took no joy in it. (Luke 19:41, 42)
Further to this, is there any precedent for such a work? (Remember, the Bible doesn't explicitly state what the hailstones represent, nor exactly when they will fall.) When the flood came, when Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed in flame, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, there was not "hard-hitting judgment message" proclaimed to the people. They knew destruction was imminent when the rain fell, when burning sulfur rained down, when the Roman armies surrounded the city. Similarly, the sign of the Son of man in the heavens will be notification enough. Or at least, one would think. However, the Governing Body would have us believe that a special edition of The Watchtower is needed before the real teeth gnashing can start.
Paragraph 10 brings in Ezekiel’s prophecy which speaks of Gog and Magog encircling the dwelling of the holy ones. This, we say, occurs after Babylon the great is destroyed. Now the only other reference to Gog and Magog in the Bible shows a fulfillment after the 1,000 years of Christ’s reign have ended:
“. . .Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.. . .” (Re 20:7-9)
Do you notice the similarities between Ezekiel’s account and John’s? Good, because that seems to have escaped the notice of the Governing Body. Why do we promote an interpretation for which there is no scriptural support? If you've ever had to lie about something, you know how one lie must give birth to more, for one has to lie to support the original lies. Soon, a complete structure of lies comes into being, like a massive house of cards.
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the organization - not just the individuals in it, but the organization itself - will survive. So now you have an organization with its organizational structure right up to the Governing Body, standing alone in the world while all other religious organizations have been laid waste. It makes no sense that the nations would be happy about that. They would want to come after us, would they not? So applying the attack of Gog of Magog makes logical sense, if…IF…you accept the premise of the survival of the organization. The problem is that the Bible doesn’t teach this. But then, you ask, how will Christians survive? Jesus already explained that in Mt. 24:31.
As if to catch its breath, the article takes a step back from speculation in paragraph 11. However, the respite is brief. We are right back into it in paragraph 12.
“According to Matthew, Jesus finished giving the composite sign with the parable of the sheep and the goats…”
So is it a parable, or is it a sign? All the other "signs", even the things we misinterpret as signs like the wars, famines, and earthquakes, are real things, not parables or metaphors. Our prophetic application of Scripture grows ever more fuzzy.
Shining Brightly in the Kingdom
Paragraph 15 states that Jesus will come invisibly. We know this because the paragraph says: “the Bible clearly shows that 'the sign of the Son of Man' will appear in heaven and that Jesus will come 'on the clouds of the heaven.'” (Matt. 24:30) Both of these inspections imply invisibility.”
I'm wondering if reading this has left you as speechless as it has me.
Behold the full text of Matthew 24:30.
“. . .Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Mt 24:30)
How do expressions like “will appear” and “they will see” imply invisibility?
Daniel sure had no problem seeing the Son of Man coming with the clouds of the heavens.
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.” (Da 7:13)
Could the Apostle John have said it more clearly?
Revelation 1:7 says, “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.”
If I tell you,"Look the wind is blowing the clouds toward us, and behold there is a hot air balloon coming with the clouds!" Would you turn to me, and say, "But Meleti, how can you see the balloon, being that what you've just said implies invisibility?"
For the sake of continuity, we can number this assumption 7, but admittedly, we are really stretching the meaning of the word, since an assumption is normally based on some degree of probability, while this interpretation requires us to surrender up our knowledge of the English language.
In paragraph 16 we make another assumption (8) by stating that the words in 2 Chronicles 20:17 have a secondary fulfillment with regard to those who are being attacked by Gog of Magog – an assumption based on another assumption. This will require Jesus to step in to defend his sheep. These are the sheep Jesus fails to mention when assuring his chosen ones they will be gathered together from the four corners of the earth. Odd that after giving such explicit instructions to the Christians in Jerusalem and after assuring his chosen ones that their protection at the end of the conclusion of things lies in the hands of the angels, he completely overlooks reassuring eight million others as to what they must do, or how they will be safeguarded. Fortunately, we have the Governing Body to carefully piece together all the types, antitypes, and dual fulfillments for our peace and security. And we can rest assured that despite all their past failures, Jehovah will inspire them to tell us just what we need to do when the time comes. This is surely a safe assumption. Let’s call it number 10; the number for human perfection.
In Summary
Reviewing the assumptions, we have: 1) the great tribulation begins with the destruction of Babylon the Great which 2) will cause the clergy (not us) to deny any affiliation with their previous paramours, but at some point 3) the destruction of Babylon the Great will be cut short so the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses can escape destruction, and thereby 4) flee to some yet-to-be specified refuge which God will provide, making 5) Jehovah's Witnesses the only religion to be saved. Following the conclusion of the destruction of all false religion (again, not us), 6) we will proclaim a judgment message on the world; then, 7) Jesus will appear in the heavens invisibly. Next, 8) Satan or Gog will attack Jehovah’s Witnesses. Finally, we have assumption 9) as a kind of umbrella over all this, because somewhere during these events the Governing Body will tell us everything we need to do to be saved. Absolute and unquestioning obedience will be required however.
Perhaps after studying this week's Watchtower, we might just want to read Isaiah 9:14-17. Perhaps, just maybe, there is something relevant there we can ponder on.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Chris on 2015-09-08 13:23:27
I've been waiting on this article to be written about. Thank you. :)
Reply by katrina on 2015-09-13 00:40:22
what about the separation of the sheep and goats, para12 when says son of man comes in all his glory sits on his throne? didn't he take kingdom power in 1914 so he is already sitting on his throne, how many thrones does he have, so he gets of one throne and sits on the judgment throne to separate the sheep from the goats.
One has to be come to be present how many times does Christ come?
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-09-08 16:13:58
I appreciate your point about the heavens not implying invisibility. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:26 to observe the birds of heaven. If being in "heaven" implies invisibility, how could we observe the birds that fly therein? Saying that heaven implies invisibility is worse than merely poor scholarship; it is in direct contradiction to the Bible. These are the "prophets" we are supposed to implicitly trust?
Comment by JimmyG on 2015-09-08 16:44:55
Speaking of things invisible, how's this for a quote from David Splane in the September broadcast:
"In 1914, who were the only ones who saw these various aspects of the sign and drew the right conclusion, that something invisible was occurring? Only the anointed. So 'this generation' is made up of anointed ones who see the sign and have the spiritual discernment to draw the proper conclusion about the sign."
Splane endeavours to explain the inexplicable- the overlapping generations, even using a chart! Even the year 1992 seems to now be of some significance. Haven't these guys heard of Ockham's Razor?Reply by noblemindedthinker on 2015-09-08 17:30:47
Prepare for them them to close up the heavenly calling again. Franz is baptized right before 1914 and lived to be almost 100 years old. If you weren't baptized by 1992 (like Mr Sanderson) you will likely not quality for their approval of you having the heavenly calling. Even if you were baptized 10 minutes after Fred Franz died, you don't quality (chuckle)
Comment by Hamilton Grey on 2015-09-08 17:41:21
If your interested in the societies association with the UN i recommend the book linked below, it's available as a paper back or kindle download. The critic is as follows:
"This book is a one-stop resource detailing all the evidence regarding the Watchtower Society's affair with the United Nations. Not only did this affair deceive the United Nations, but it also deceived the worldwide membership of Jehovah's Witnesses. This book gives all of the source references so that the reader can verify the information for him or herself. It is a must-have for anyone who is investigating this matter in depth."
http://www.amazon.com/Jehovahs-Witnesses-United-Nations-Watchtower/dp/1466387602/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1441747849&sr=1-1&keywords=jehovah%27s+witnesses+United+nations
Comment by Alien resident on 2015-09-08 19:43:02
Thanks Meleti, yes there was talk amongst the elders, about this article months ago, a lot of the talk is mostly about the judgement message to come. You highlight good reasoning points, why this would be unlikely. Just one question, your thought on 1942, regarding the return of the League of Nations during ww2. I think the talk was Peace can it last? By Bro Knorr. Is that one they got right. Just going back to your illustration of the alarm clock, a case of hit miss, in understanding these prophesies. Thanks again for your analysis.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-09-08 20:16:33
Actually, Brother Knorr's speech turns out to be not the prophetic pronouncement we claim. See here for some info on it.
Also, there is evidence that the foretold rise of the League of Nations into what was to become the United Nations was already underway when Knorr spoke of the beast arising from the abyss. I think Bobcat had something on this in Discuss the Truth. So it would appear that rather than being prophetic, Knorr was merely well informed.Reply by Anonymous on 2015-09-08 20:47:09
If I recall correctly, at one time is was originally believed that it was the League of Nations that was the beast coming up out of the abyss. That is because the organization thought that the World Court in the Hague was the original incantation of the beast, since it has a degree authority over many of the nations of the earth, at least in a limited judicial sense. As the years progressed, and the League itself was disbanded, they simply forgot about the World Court, relabeled everything, and pressed the Reset button. Voila! New light.
Reply by 1984 on 2015-09-09 02:03:47
Yes, that is my understanding also. I wonder if this is the real reason that they joined the UN from 1992-2001 - to keep informed and present inside information as prophecy? We all know it wasn't for a library card.
Given the lengths they went to, you would think they might at least get behind some of the worthwhile causes the UN represents in a material way, and produce some actual good fruitage rather than masquerading as something else for their own ends. It would have been nice to at least see some genuine compassion like Jesus showed when he was on the Earth.
Reply by Claudelle on 2015-09-14 00:46:13
Historically it would not do any damage to refer to William Shirer's " The Rise and fall of the Third Riech". A well-researched book; referred to with the respect it deserves from other scholars who wrote much later about this "generation of hate". It will show you the League of Nations birth, the decline and rebirth as the UN. I must add that as an entity it may be a toothless tiger with some well-meaning members, who are on board. I don't see them as evil I don't know enough to make such a broad statement.
Try to acquaint yourself with as much historical knowledge as possible in order to order your' thoughts.
My literature teacher liked this saying, and so he kept saying it.
Reply by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-09-09 00:25:59
Alien resident, When I read your question "Is that one they got right.", it reminded me that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Comment by Buster on 2015-09-08 21:44:15
No way, again no way want to be rude or making fun of our Lord Jesus or our Almighty God Yahweh (Jehovah), so I guess they are gonna call a timeout or half time on the middle of the great tribulation. Man there is so many we think, or we just don't know in this article. And of course Jesus returns invisibility, of course.
Great write up like always. :)
Comment by Buster on 2015-09-08 21:47:32
Of course GB member David Splane and his Generation chart on the September broadcast is really helpful, right, man we are going so far over the edge the organization just does not care, and many many will eat it up. Wow
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-09-09 00:18:37
Meleti, I stopped reading the Watchtower a few years ago once my eyes were opened to the "truth about the truth".
As I read your thorough exposition of this article, especially the information about the United Nations deceit, all I can say is "WOW"! I can just picture those in the writing department as they must have struggled to write this article with a straight face.
So many could benefit from this if they would only take off their "JW glasses" and just look through their eyes using plain ole common sense.
My dear brother, how it must have hurt you to have to write this. Just as it hurts all lovers of truth to read it. I appreciate all that you do to help others by using your time this way. I pray for Holy Spirit to go to you and give you strength.
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-09-09 00:45:49
It just becomes more ridiculous with time, they are really grasping at straws to prop up WT doctrine, all because of this obsession to be a "survivor" . I have just read an article on the financial crisis that the USA is sinking into, and it reads very similarly to the above watchtower article .
Comment by 1984 on 2015-09-09 01:56:04
Fantastic article Meleti. Once when taking the bookgroup in my capacity as an elder, the Revelation Climax book of course, I asked the group a supplementary question - how do we know that the attack on Babylon the Great triggers the start of the Great Tribulation, given that the bible doesn't specifically say that? It raised a few eyebrows, and I wouldn't give the official answer from the Watchtower, so I suggested some research instead. The following week nobody had bothered to do any research, and a month later still nobody could tell me how the GB even draw that conclusion. I guess they really didn't care that much. For me it didn't really matter anymore, I knew it was a fallacy and I was on my way out. Around that same time I came to the conclusion that the attack of Gog mentioned in Ezekiel was exactly the same as that mentioned in Revelation at the end of the 1000 years, so it is incredibly liberating to see your study of the bible has brought you to the same conclusion. I think the bible is quite clear on this point really, and the GB's interpretation is just more fear mongering, along with everything else in this week's Watchtower Study. Thanks again, keep up the good work!
Comment by Skye on 2015-09-09 03:55:43
JWs have been taught not to think, and so unless they wake up they won't even try to work out WTs "generation game" and it won't pose any problem for them.
"my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6
Comment by Menrov on 2015-09-09 08:21:21
Good article, as usual :-), just one question. What do you (and 1984) means with the conclusion that the attack of Gog mentioned in Ezekiel was exactly the same as that mentioned in Revelation at the end of the 1000 years. Why is this conclusion important? I am not really aware so hope my question does not sound stupid.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-09-09 10:53:26
Thanks Menrov. And good question, by the way. I believe that the account of Ezekiel and that found in Revelation concerning Gog and Magog would seem to indicate that both visions refer to the same events. Applying Ezekiel's words to the time just before Armageddon assumes facts not in evidence. It assumes a large organization of Christians who will not escape the scene by being gathered to Christ, transformed in the twinkling of an eye. (Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:51, 52) Therefore, they will have to be protected by a counter attack by God. This is the scenario presented by John at Re 20:7-10, but I find now scriptural support for another similar scenario to play out at the time of the end, prior to Armageddon.
Of course, we have no hard facts, so this is speculation, but at least speculation based on Scripture. The Organization's speculation is based on the flawed doctrine that there is a secondary class of Christian with an earthly hope, and everyone who rejects that hope -- or just has the bad luck to not hear it -- must die the second death.
Comment by Beanie on 2015-09-09 09:19:14
Under your section A Prophet Speaks...
How I've understood it for nearly 50 years, is that the prophecy recorded in Matt 24:15-22 and other places, included the whole period and actions from 66CE when Roman general Gallus surrounded Jerusalem with 'encamped armies', until the end of the Roman attacks by Titus in 70 CE.
?In 66CE, Gallus surrounded Jerusalem
?He & his troops withdrew suddenly
?the drawing away made those 'days cut short' and the Christians (chosen ones) fleeing to Pella and surrounding woods, resulted in their flesh being saved from later when a worse siege by Romans occurs.
?In 70 CE Roman General Titus advanced, encircled Jerusalem and over a million Jews died.
?Siege of Titus lasted 142 months and maybe could have gone on until all Jews left would be dead, but
97,000 were spared, so some flesh again was saved.
I haven't heard who these 97,000 represented, but we don't know if any of God's chosen ones were among them, just not become Christians yet. But that's just something additional I've thought of.
Comment by miken on 2015-09-09 11:25:45
"The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not directly claim to be a prophet, yet they do explain Bible parables, visions, and signs in a way that constitutes prophetic interpretation"
For those who believe JW's never claimed to be God's prophet a few quotations:-
However note the Awake March 22, 1993 pp 3-4 quotation where apparently
Deuteronomy 18:21, 22 does not apply to the WT organization!!!
Likewise in heaven (1) Jehovah God originates his utterances; (2) then his official Word, or Spokesman—now known as Jesus Christ—often transmits the message; (3) God’s holy spirit, the active force that is used as the medium of communication, carries it earthward; (4) God’s prophet on earth receives the message; and (5) he then publishes it for the benefit of God’s people. Just as on occasion today a courier may be sent to deliver an important message, so Jehovah at times chose to use spirit messengers, or angels, to carry some communications from the heavens to his servants on the earth.
All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial page 9, para 16
30 Tenth, the congregation of Christ must today follow its first-century pattern by receiving progressive understandings of Bible prophecies which unfold further majestic purposes of the Living God and which new light of truth must be published impartially the world over by God’s prophet like organization. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses and their companions “do not treat prophesyings with contempt” but publish their fulfillments as they become clear, in their Bible publications.—1 Thess. 5:20; Rev. 11:3, 4, NW.
Wt May 15, 1955 page 315
13, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah’s witnesses have been and are God’s prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world’s end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God’s foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?
14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.
WT Jan 15, 1959 pp 40-41
22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”—Matt. 24:47.
WT June 15, 1964 page 365
33 Likewise it was a trying mission upon which the modern Ezekiel class was sent, to religious people of the same type as those in Ezekiel’s day. But regardless of how Christendom views or regards this group of anointed witnesses of Jehovah, the time must come, and that shortly, when those making up Christendom will know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them.
The Nations Shall Know I Am Jehovah-How? 1971 page 70
This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief........
To Ezekiel, in his vision, and, symbolically to the modern-day “prophet,” the spirit-begotten, anointed ones who are the nucleus of Jehovah’s witnesses today, God gave something to eat.....
Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them. Actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite “prophet” in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the Bible with the “prophet” group and its companions
WT April 1, 1972 pp 197-200.
There are some who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true. They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event. They do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from Jehovah and that in this sense they are prophesying in Jehovah’s name. Hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets such as those warned against at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. In their human fallibility, they misinterpreted matters.
Footnote
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19.
Awake March 22, 1993 pp 3-4
Reply by father jack on 2015-09-09 13:11:37
Its just crazy . If they are not prophets and not infallable then why is it that anyone who disagrees with them is classed as an apostate. That in itself shows that they feel they are gods spokesman . Or his channel of communication
Comment by Mark-O on 2015-09-10 00:53:35
OMINOUS!
Looks like when "apostate Jerusalem" goes down (Matt24:15), this time as the "JW UN sponsoring Org", it will not end quite as soon as the 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 deluded GB will have thoroughly impressed into the JW mind as a nice "loss of reason" and "over excited" diversion.
If JWs "stand out there expecting deliverance near", it will be quite some time standing in the rain and wind, and with that other "obey as insane as it sounds directive", FEMA may be what many are delivered to instead.
IT IS WHAT IT IS: GB PIED PIPER LED DISASTER IS BREWING!
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2015-09-10 15:10:20
Regarding the attacking by Gog of Magog in Ezekiel, the May 2015 study edition WT had a questions from readers with the latest understanding ( ?) that identifies Gog OF Magog as a coalition of nations ( not Satan as previously explained) that attacks Gods people after false religion has been destroyed.
The passage in Revelation is different because it speaks of Gog AND Magog who is mislead by the recently released Satan. This is explained as rebellious humans who will attack gods people ( again) ? at the end of the 1000 years.
I make no comment on the veracity of this latest information. I just wanted to point out that there are now 2 gog attacks that are identified as different protagonists. The second one in Revelation does now align with your understanding, Meleti.
With thanks for your perceptive comments,
Martha
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-09-10 16:26:22
As with many Bible prophecies, we can only understand them when their fulfillment is upon us. So while I don't know for certain that Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20:7-10 are parallel accounts of the same event, I can't discount the possibility either. That one refers to Gog of the land of Magog and the other to Gog and Magog doesn't mean they are different. To illustrate, substitute Satan for Gog and hordes for Magog in both places. (The magazines have referred to the nations as Satan's hordes."
“. . .“Son of man, set your face against Satan [of] the land of his hordes, the head chieftain of Meʹshech and Tuʹbal, and prophesy against him.” (Eze 38:2)
“. . .Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those hordes in the four corners of the earth, Satan and his hordes, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.” (Re 20:7, 8)
You see, Revelation's use of "Gog and Magog" doesn't necessarily imply that the nations are both. It could well mean that Satan and the nations he leads comprise Gog (Satan) and Magog (the nations).
Be that as it may, the latest interpretation of the Governing Body regarding Ezekiel's account is just pure speculation. There is nothing to say that it will be fulfilled prior to Armageddon. The phrase, "the final part of the days", is ambiguous. Revelation's account is the most final of all the final parts of the days involving the rebellion of mankind, so it could apply there.
Having said that, I do find that applying Ezekiel 38 to the time following the destruction of Babylon requires us to accept the Governing Body's interpretation of John 10:16, because only if there is a large group of earthbound Christians would such a scenario be able to play out.
Admittedly, there may well be other factors that would justify such an event. Again, we cannot know as we lack all the facts. Perhaps the two slaves of Luke 12:47, 48 will constitute a class of Christians who, though having failed to receive the reward Christ has offered, will still be kept safe within Christ's household.
Time will tell.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2015-09-10 18:01:14
Time will tell..... I definitely agree with that! I don't see the point of speculating on future events. If we can't back our ideas up with scripture then they are just a stab in the dark, maybe an educated one but still.... We run the risk of having to back down with red faces as the realities unfold. I don't see any reason to trust the GBs speculation any more than my own.
To be honest, this week's WT leaves me feeling exhausted. I believe I'm suffering from PTSD.
PRE trauma stress disorder.
I've had a lifetime , literally, of 'awareness' of impending persecution and destruction. I feel as though I can't take any more.
I'm not closing my eyes to the future, I know it's all happening some day, but I'm so tired of being made to live on tenterhooks.
Reply by father jack on 2015-09-11 13:55:37
Thats it sister they are keeping people on red alert each day for years its not good for the health , someone said we should live each day as if its our last , but it soon will be if we live like that , its all part of the psyche though , its designed to motivate people buisness use it oh the firm will go bust unless we work harder , its on the brink you will lose your job , you wont get another , jesus just said keep on the watch not pull your guts out every day in a stressed state
Reply by Claudelle on 2015-09-14 00:22:00
It is almost impossible to live and thrive whilst constantly reminded we will see our loved ones die. In this case, my children, or the old lady next door to me who is faithful to God in her own way and never wavers from it.
It is impossible to live amongst constant proclamations of impending death. We are not born to constantly live with death. We see new growth in spring, new birds hatching, the cycle of life continuing. Jehovah never said that one creature of his creation would die out in this impending Armageddon. Surely this indicates that the hellish drawings we are subjected to are cruel interpretations designed to take the soul out of us.
On the one hand. we are told that........."two will be in the field and one would be taken away.." Then we are told we are all about to die horrifically, with no thought to the loosely quoted scripture above.
Worse still; is this persistent intent of the WTBTS in creating an event of such magnitude, whereby people are in terror.
And whether they received God's word or not, they will die by virtue of the "parent government, that refused it's citizens the right to choose for themselves whether or not they would follow the instructions of Christ as supported by his and our Father". This is how it was explained to me by my study conductors. I reject this outright, from a sense of the love and compassion that Christ taught us to feel and explore.
Did not Christ come to show us how we can be in harmony with our Father? He did away with the old Mosiac Law and left a basic outline of good conduct and admonished us to love.
The reason we don't know the day or the hour is a good one. It is to make sure we have a good heart, a kind attitude, a non-elitist approach..........a non-self-serving motive......I cannot support a smug sectarian view.
Comment by J Farney on 2015-09-22 21:58:35
yes if one is looking for faults & errors ..there's plenty of them here..
Personally I feel the hailstones mentioned at Rev 16: 21 are NOT figurative since a specific weight is given to each .. much like a specific number is given to the 144,000 rendering it as literal and NOT figurative..
Jehovah has a history of using hailstones in the past in a selective manner toward the against his enemies, ... Remember, no hail fell in Goshen.
One would surely agree that 70lb hailstones would be quite destructive and the selective use of such would do much much to bring the name of Jehovah quite forceably to bear! ..
"The Nations Shall Know I AM Jehovah" .. as repeated some 70 times in Ezekiel .
I personally do not see any need for a worldwide "neener neener" proclamation.
I will admit though, the wt is not quite the same without the input of our wonderful brother
Mr. Fred Franz.. we all miss him
Comment by Chris on 2018-08-22 12:16:43
so Jonah was a false prophet?because in the eyes of the people,what he prophesied didnt happen when he said it would.
Also,Jesus disciples kept getting it wrong,thinking he was there to establish Gods kingdom there and then,,were they false prophets?Jesus corrected their thinking.
In the first century congregations,look at some of the letters the apostle Paul had to write because of some of the things going on in the congregation.So was that not the truth?not the true Christianity?
Peter actually denying Jesus,and yet was used greatly by him afterwards.
etc,etc,etc,etc
If its a blame game,,youd better blame the bible and Jehovah God himself because its full of examples of people who loved him and yet made mistakes,got it wrong.
The difference is not wether a person or religious body makes mistakes,,,,but what they do about it!
being willing to re-adjust and move forward.
Ive had these conversations before face to face with a guy who was always trying to prove Jehovahs witnesses/governing body wrong.But do you know what he couldnt tell me?if theyre wrong then who is right?and what should I do with my life if I leave, seeing as its they alone who called at my door and showed me from the Bible what God expected of me and caused to change my life from one leading to nothing but bad to a better one.
Its the easiest thing in the world to find fault with others beliefs,but an entirely different matter to give an alternate equally feasible explanation of what the whole truth is.
I suggest that instead of wasting so much time looking for faults and mistakes to prove the governing body wrong,which you will undoubtedly find occasionally,you study the Bible more thoroughly and use your time telling people the good news that this evil world with all its suffering will soon be gone and the new world promised in the scriptures will soon be here.
Unless of course,,,you dont believe the scripturesReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-12-16 10:12:27
You state: "The difference is not wether a person or religious body makes mistakes,,,,but what they do about it!
being willing to re-adjust and move forward."
I couldn't agree more. The Governing Body does not admit its mistakes, nor take steps to correct them. The 10-year UN membership is a hypocrisy they've never repented for. They refuse to adjust their policies regarding handing child abuse cases. They've known that 607 was not the date of the exile since the 1970s, yet refuse to adjust their interpretation of 1914 and disfellowship those who speak up about this deception.
We condemn the Catholic church for similar actions and false teachings, yet give ourselves a pass, because the Catholic church did all of the above because they are evil, while we did them because we're human and make mistakes.
We don't need an organization. We preach the Christ. He is our leader.
Comment by Chris on 2018-08-22 12:32:45
Also,forgot to mention,,,,its the Bible itself that speaks clearly about the death and destruction to come.
If you dont like the sound of that,pick fault with where it originates,,the scriptures.
and if you prefer the alternative,,,,that this world continues with all the suffering and killing and wars and etc,etc,etc until they eventually annhilate us all making the earth uninhabitible in the process,,,
well,, what does that say about you?
Im not particularly looking forward to whats coming,,,but its a far better solution than any humans could offer,,,at least it will not be indiscriminate destruction.
Bible truth is being spread throughout the world like never before,,,everyone will be given fair warning and chance to accept Gods ways or not,,,,but hes not going to wait indefinately just for the sake of some selfish ones ,or indecisive ones.
I wouldnt want him to let all the suffering continue any longer than it has to just for me,while I dilly dally.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-12-16 10:07:07
He will end the suffering, but not by killing every man, woman, and infant not in the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus will eliminate those directly opposing his rule. (Da 2:44) Then he will give individuals the opportunity to accept him free of peer pressure.