[From ws15/08 p. 19 for Oct. 12 -18]
“Tell them to work at good, to be rich in fine works,
to be generous, ready to share, 19 safely treasuring up
for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that
they may get a firm hold on the real life.” (1Ti 6:18, 19)
This Watchtower study opens by linking the “real life” found at first Timothy 6:19 with the “everlasting life” that Paul refers to in verse 12 of the same chapter. However, it does not apply these words as Paul intended.
This real life/everlasting life was the hope that both Paul and Timothy shared. Neither was looking forward to living as imperfect sinners for 1,000 years on earth before reaching perfection. Paul told Timothy to get a hold on everlasting life then and there. One cannot grasp hold of something that is not present. Therefore, they were both able to get a hold on it 2,000 years ago. That life was granted to them by the declaration of God that they were righteous. (1Co 6:11) They both looked forward to everlasting life in the kingdom of the heavens with their Lord Jesus Christ.
To refer to that life as the real life implies that the life they then lived as sinners in imperfect bodies was not real. So hoping to live in the new world in the same state—imperfect and sinful and not yet declared righteous—could not be what Paul was talking about.
So why are we making this up in this week’s Watchtower study?
“And just think how much easier it will be to draw closer to Jehovah as we approach, and finally reach, perfection!— Ps. 73:28; Jas. 4:8.” – par. 2
The astute reader will look up the two verses referred to here and realize that neither says anything about finally reaching perfection after 1,000 more years of life. Do you not think that if there were a Scripture—even one, single Scripture—that supported the idea of Christians working toward perfection during the thousand year reign of Christ, that it would be quoted here? What makes a mockery of this doctrine is that it is presupposed that these still-imperfect Christians will be working alongside the millions or billions of unrighteous resurrected ones. Since they will both be in the same state of imperfection, how is it that the Christians have grasped hold of everlasting life?
How to Prepare
This entire study is based on a false premise. The assumption is that there is a group of Christians known as the other sheep who have an earthly hope. These will either survive Armageddon or be resurrected as part of the resurrection of the righteous, even though they are still imperfect and therefore still sinners.
What the Bible actually teaches is that all faithful Christians receive the reward to rule with Jesus as Kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens. These are the ones who will shepherd, instruct, and heal the billions of unrighteous resurrected who will return to live during judgment day – the thousand year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you are new to this forum and take exception to this assertion, we invite you in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15 to make a defense for the hope you have. Please give us the scriptural evidence to prove that the other sheep are a group of latter-day Christians who have an earthly hope, are friends—not sons—of God, are not in the new covenant, are prohibited from partaking of the emblems, and do not have Jesus as their mediator. Feel free to use the commenting section of this article to provide your proof.
Now back to the article. Paragraph six makes the statement: “Consistently, then, are we submitting to theocratic direction now?” This begs the question, how exactly does theocratic direction come to us?
The premise of the statement is laid out in the following paragraph.
“If we cooperate with those taking the lead today, perhaps finding contentment and joy in new assignments of service, we are likely to have the same attitude in the new world…Today, of course, we do not know where each one of us may be assigned to live in the new system of things.” – par. 7
This statement is based on the premise that humans will have to follow the Israelite model of apportioned land in the New World. This is pure speculation. Nevertheless, the real problem is the presumption that we can prepare for the New World by learning how to submit to the direction of men today. This is the key teaching point of the article. We prepare for submission to Jehovah’s rulership in the New World by learning how to submit to the instructions from men in the Organization. Allegedly, these men are merely following instructions they somehow receive from Jehovah God. This is in line with Anthony Morris III’s statement that this is a theocracy, an organization governed by heaven.
The article continues:
The privilege of living under Kingdom rule is well worth any effort we make to cooperate with Jehovah’s organization and care for theocratic assignments. Of course, our circumstances may change with the passing of time. For instance, some members of the Bethel family in the United States have been reassigned to the field and are now enjoying abundant blessings in other forms of the full-time ministry. Because of advancing age or other factors, others who were in the traveling work have now received special pioneer assignments. – par. 8
One of my closest friends was a circuit and then district overseer for many years. A traveling overseer's needs are all cared for, housing, car, allowance, and generous gifts. He was also a special pioneer for many years prior to entering the traveling overseer work. That he found much more difficult. He had to live on a very small allowance, pay for his housing, food and transportation himself. It is hard to understand how advancing age is a factor for being reassigned from the traveling overseer work to become a special pioneer. This causes one to wonder about the "other factors" mentioned.
I know of many who have given their entire adult life to Bethel service. They have no pensions. They have few marketable skills and they are now senior citizens. They are not convinced they will be “enjoying abundant blessings in other forms of the full-time ministry.” They certainly didn’t ask for this.
We can also prepare for life in the new world by exercising patience regarding revealed truth. Are we studious and patient as our understanding of Bible truth is progressively clarified today? If so, we will likely have no difficulty showing patience in the new world as Jehovah makes known his requirements for mankind. – par. 10
We are not told how the truth is revealed, only that it is revealed. The assumption is that it is Jehovah who is doing the revealing, presumably to the Governing Body. However, if it is God who is revealing the truth, why does it keep changing?
The idea that Jehovah is revealing truth and that, as Anthony Morris III said, the Organization is governed from heaven, is being seriously questioned of late due to some surprising new developments.
A Startling Turn of Events
In late September, Bethel families around the world received a shocking announcement. The size of Bethel families everywhere is going to be reduced drastically. Some by 20% and others by as much as 60%. Brothers and sisters who have spent 20, 30, even 40 years faithfully serving in Bethel homes are suddenly facing the bleak prospect of fending for themselves. Older ones know they will be the first to go. Since the organization has made no provision for pensions,[i] and since the option to become special pioneers and receive a monthly stipend is not on the table, many are very anxious and worrying how they will provide for themselves.
Not surprisingly, brothers loyal to the organization are spinning this as a positive development. They argue that the most important thing is the field service work. Therefore by freeing up thousands of workers currently caring for mundane duties such as cleaning, laundry, and food preparation, the Governing Body is focusing on what really matters. They deny that this has anything to do with cost-cutting, stating that the organization has lots of money. If that is the case, then why are these Bethelites not being reassigned as special pioneers so they can devote even more time in the field service? Why are we hearing reports that special pioneers are being demoted to regular pioneer status? Special pioneers can devote 50 hours more than regular pioneers in the field ministry every month. If the issue is not money, why reduce our preaching force in this way?
Another fact not widely known is that those most likely to be targeted for “re-assignment” (Bethel-speak for “downsized”) are the older ones. I have a number of older friends still in Bethel who are very concerned as they have no means to provide for themselves and are sure they will be gone since that has been the pattern for the past while. A younger brother is brought in, trained, then the older one is given his walking papers. Some of these already-downsized Bethelites are having a hard time getting work since who wants to hire a senior citizen with no resume to speak of? Again, if it is not about the money, but about the preaching work, why send older ones into the field in the first place? Young people are healthier and stronger. They will be able to find work more easily. Many will enjoy the support of parents. They will be more able to travel with less concern about health costs and insurance. In short, they will be more effective preachers than older, infirm ones.
Worldly companies downsize by dumping older workers who are paid more and can’t work as hard. Their concern is not the welfare of the worker, but the bottom line on their balance sheet. However, when the Organization does it, we are expected to believe it is all about the preaching work.
Yet another argument being spun to defend this decision is that there is a significant amount of waste of resources in Bethel families. It costs millions of dollars to keep thousands of workers on staff to do menial tasks that each individual could do for themselves—cleaning their own rooms, doing their own laundry, cooking their own meals. Therefore, the reasoning goes, Jehovah is directing his organization to focus on the preaching work by cutting the fat.
Indeed?!
Would this not imply that those claiming to be the “faithful and discreet slave” are not discreet at all? If they have been wasting resources for decades, they can hardly lay claim to the discretionary use of resources.
Only five months ago, this so-called faithful and discreet slave was asking for money to build 140 regional translation offices and thousands of new kingdom halls. Now we find that everything has been put on hold with the exception of the head office in Warwick where the Governing Body will reside. This is done allegedly because the most important thing is the field service work. This is not about money. This is not about getting rid of older workers who will soon become a burden on the system because of age and infirmity. This is about the preaching work.
If this isn't about money, but the proper discretionary use of funds, we must conclude that Warwick is a wise use of dedicated funds, but every other project on the books is suspect. If so, how were these decisions made in the first place? Through videos, we have been led to believe that committees of qualified men have carefully reviewed the statistics to determine where a kingdom hall or a regional translation office is needed. These decisions were made only after thoroughly researching and reviewing the data. Before the final decision was made, these qualified and skilled men prayed for Jehovah's guidance. Now suddenly everything is put on hold, but it's not because we don't have the money? Did Jehovah fail to answer every prayer except the one involving the Warwick construction?
The most egregious aspect of all this is that it does not reflect the spirit of the Christ.
The organization has often warned us about becoming desensitized. For example, we’ve all seen study articles that show how scenes on television that would have shocked us 30 years ago are now considered completely acceptable.
There was a time in the corporate world that an employee who was loyal to the company could count on a lifelong of employment. He could look forward to retirement with a good pension and a gold watch. However, that has all changed in recent years. There is no longer a presumption that if the employee is loyal to the company, the company will be loyal to the employee. Downsizing is now common. Nevertheless, we have built-in protections in most civilized nations. Dismissing an employee because it makes good fiscal sense still requires the company to put together a reasonable severance package.
If Jehovah were truly running the organization, it would set the example. God is love. He would not dismiss a Bethel worker in his late 60s saying, “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” while not providing him with the necessities of life, would he? (Ja 2:16)
The evidence is that this is very much about money. If indeed the organization has lots of it, this is about making sure it doesn’t lose what it has. And if, as many suspect, the organization is really hurting for funds, then this is further evidence of an organization in decline. None of this demonstrates the loving care of our heavenly Father. Rather, what we are seeing mimics the decisions from the directors' boardroom of worldly corporations. To say that Jehovah is behind this decision is to bring reproach on his good name.
An Apology
I realize that this started out as a Watchtower review and has morphed into something else. Nevertheless, the subject matter did seem topical to the article's main point, which is that if we are to get ready for the new world, we have to learn to obey the direction of the Governing Body now. Well, as Jesus said, "Wisdom is proved righteous by its children." (Luke 7:35) The decisions that the Governing Body have made are its children, born of its wisdom. Are they proven righteous?
_________________________________________________
[i] When the Spanish government imposed a requirement for the WB&TS to pay into the government pension plan for all Spanish Bethel workers, the Governing Body closed the Spanish branch office down and sold the property which had been purchased with millions of dollars of donated funds.
Archived Comments
We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.
Comment by Chris on 2015-10-12 17:56:32
Can we officially say that we are preaching another gospel when we preach an earthly hope because the apostles didn't preach an earthly hope for Christ's followers?
Reply by Vox Ratio on 2015-10-12 22:29:35
Hi Chris,
This is a matter that greatly disturbed me when I first realised it. I fought long and hard against the notion that I was preaching a different gospel than the one expounded by the apostles. And yet, it is what it is. As much as it pained me to admit it, I had to accept that Paul’s injunction to the Galatians was inescapable (Gal. 1:8). Allow me to explain a little as to why:
As far as I can tell, the only way to avoid the conclusion that you have drawn is to accept a theory of progressive revelation. Conceivably, one might proffer Christ’s vouchsafe concerning the Spirit’s unveiling of truth and, by extension, the corporate authority invested within a Church magisterium (cf. Joh. 16:13; Act. 15ff). The Catholics believe thusly, as do the Mormons, among others. Unsurprisingly, the Witnesses protest this type of identification for themselves. However, as long as unquestioning obedience is required, it seems to me that there is little practical difference between receiving a new revelation and receiving new light.
Now, one might quibble with this and argue that although the apostles and the angels aren’t permitted to alter the good news, God and the Spirit can. If this is true during our NT age, then it seems that for all practical purposes the NT admonition to test the “spirits”, to test “others”, and to test “ourselves” is easily defeasible (cf. 1 Joh. 4:1; Rev. 2:2; 2 Cor. 13:5). For instance, one simply has to claim that God’s Spirit has revealed a matter to them and that is that. Lamentably, if the Spirit is altering the good news then Christians are justifiably the most confused people on Earth. Indeed, God may well be a God of disorder since large swaths of the NT corpus are liable to be summarily dismissed (cf. 1 Cor. 14:33). What’s more, the great unqualified maxim of our Lord, “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free”, may as well be a provisional clause like the fine print on a legal promissory.
Historically speaking, the Sprit expanded the scope of the good news within the first century, but it did not abbreviate it. Thus, Christ’s words proved true in that the Spirit revealed what was to come, namely, the adoption of Samaritans and Gentiles into the body (cf. Joh. 16:13; Act. 8ff, 10ff). Nevertheless, the body’s definition remained unaffected and its requirements remained unchanged. Paul emphasised that there is only one body and that there is only one hope to be called to (Eph. 4:4). This is where the gospel’s lines are drawn. This is how the gospel speaks to us. This is how we are to speak the gospel.Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-10-13 06:12:01
Vox, it's such a pleasure to have your contributions here. Thank you!!
Reply by AFRICAINE on 2015-10-13 08:16:35
Well it is such a pleasure to have ALL the contributions here Alex - even when they don't resonate 100% with our own. At least here MV and the rest of you guys have created a place where we can engage and agree and disagree - lets ensure that it remains open, cordial and honest.
Reply by katrina on 2015-10-13 09:25:47
GB are taking followers after themselves something they accuse all apostates of doing.
Reply by Vox Ratio on 2015-10-13 19:48:36
Thank you, Alex. But I agree with Africaine. In my view, the real pleasure is found in the fruitage that you, Meleti, and the other authors here have cultivated in establishing an online community where contributors feel comfortable in coming together in Christ and in building up the harvest.
Reply by Leaving Quietly on 2015-10-14 11:07:50
"Now, one might quibble with this and argue that although the apostles and the angels aren’t permitted to alter the good news, God and the Spirit can"
Galatians 1:8 precludes that, too. "However, even if we OR AN ANGEL OUT OF HEAVEN were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." (capitalization mine)
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-13 14:30:50
No, I do not believe an earthly hope is preaching another Good News of God's Kingdom. I do though believe that forcing or influencing a Christian to believe what their heart is not impelling them to believe IS preaching another Good News.
If God is calling a Christian to be with Christ in the heavens they know it. They know they have been called and chosen. If a Christian has not been called they know this as well. It is not a matter of simply concluding we are anointed because all "Christians are anointed".
Watchtower has attempted to decide a Christian's destiny; heaven or earth. They have no right to do so. Neither do former Witnesses have the right to tell a fellow Christian he or she is called to heaven when our Father HAS NOT YET CALLED THEM! Doing so makes them disciples/followers of ourselves not Christ.
Neither do they have the right to discount a Christian's hope to live forever on earth. What business is it of ours to tell a Christian what God is doing or not doing?
Surely God has the ability to call all whom he chooses He does not need our help.
I agree with the thought that the pattern set in ancient Israel likely also will apply in Christ's earthly Kingdom.
Deborah
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-13 19:11:49
Christians can hope to live forever on earth. They can hope anything they want. That really isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that there is a hope for Christians to live forever on earth.
To date, no one has provided Scriptural proof for that assertion.Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 00:24:37
Meleti, you're missing the point.
God does the calling. There is nothing the Watchtower can do to interfere with God's spirit calling an individual. Do you believe God allows a brother who is in line for the heavens to miss out merely because the leaders of his Christian religion are teaching he cannot be of the anointed? Or does Jesus by God's spirit open his eyes as Christ did with his first century disciples and the brother "hears" his Father's voice in his heart and follows through as best he can.
We cannot MAKE anointed brothers and sisters of Christ that is something only the Father can do.
If a Christian is very happy with the prospect of forever living on earth with his family and has no desire to live in heaven then he has not been called or has not yet been called.
Until that time comes he should be given the dignity of his conscience and heartfelt belief.
Why should we challenge him to be what God has not yet called him to be? Christian freedom is good. We are neither burdened by others nor do we ourselves burden our brothers and sisters.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 07:49:29
I don't think so, Deborah. Your point is only valid if it is based on the Bible. You rightly criticize the Organization for inserting ideas of men into the mix. They do that by making blanket statements about what the "other sheep" of John 10:16 refers to. They call the majority of Christians friends of God, but by their traditions, deny them the chance to be God's children. The list goes on, but it is all possible because they do not base their teaching on the Bible but on the opinions of men. These opinions, passed off as doctrines, even sound logical to most, but they have no value because they are the reasoning of men, not the word of God.
So I really don't think I'm missing the point when I ask you to provide the Scriptural foundation for what you believe.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 13:37:36
Meleti,
"So I really don’t think I’m missing the point when I ask you to provide the Scriptural foundation for what you believe."
What I believe is that each Christian's relationship with God and Christ is just that- between him/her, God and Christ.
The Roman Catholic Church itself believes in an eventual return to earth.
Looking at the whole of scripture; considering that Jesus always attracted and sought the FEW not the MANY; that anointing, the receiving of God's spirit, was either a direct action on God's part or a laying of hands by men long dead; considering that God has not given obvious and public manifestation of his spirit upon any man taking the lead since the first century; considering that most Christians today do not live a life fully sacrificed to following Christ leaving behind all things for his sake; considering that the spirit of God generates love not racial, national, or religious hatred...considering these things, and others, there is much evidence that most Christians have NOT been anointed with God's spirit!
You ask for proof- it is staring you in the face.
Scripture is important but so is allowing our eyes to see what is in front of them.
God, if He chooses, can call all JWs. The number partaking is increasing, if Jehovah deems it important for all JWs to partake in 2016 it will be so. Until then why should we expect from others what God himself is not yet expecting; for if He were, brother, if God was truly calling all JWs- no mere word of men would, or could, hold them back!
If a JW is very happy with living on earth it is because God by his spirit has not called him. Insisting that he should believe he is called to heaven because WE believe he must be is like arranging a marriage for a virgin too young to marry. A virgin who does not WANT to marry because her lover has not yet called her to his side!
There were unexpected turns of events in the first century which could not be understood until after Christ came. God does not open all doors and windows.
We are living 2000 years after the Christian congregation came into being. They lived about 2000 years after Abraham's journey and the Promises which brought the Jewish nation into being. There were many unknowns and blessings that would come though at the time not understood by Abraham nor the disciples which Jesus first gathered to himself. They did not see ALL that Jehovah had planned, all He would do.
This is added reason to wait on Jehovah recognizing He may today be working out things we are not yet able to understand or even see. Perhaps this is the reason He is not yet calling all Jehovah's Witnesses to partake.
They can IF THEY WANT TO but they just do not want to. Allow them their Christian freedom.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 13:49:14
So that would be a "no" to the whole scriptural proof thing. :)
Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm certainly not defending the Watchtower's position on salvation, and I respect your right to view things the way you do.Reply by Willy on 2015-10-22 10:47:50
Matthew 5:5 Jesus said : Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 14:15:43
Meleti,
"So that would be a “no” to the whole scriptural proof thing. :)"
LOL.
Not really. ;)Reply by Johnna on 2015-10-18 20:42:52
My feeling on the matter is the Jesus sais that where he is going there are many abodes, and he told the two next to him on " torture stakes" thate they would be in paradise with him. The apostle Paul said this person was taken to the third heaven to paradise. In Revelation it says the new earth is before the throne. My conclusion on this is that Paradise is in heaven but those in it may see it as a new earth because it is a different dimention. These ones will be resurrected as spirit creatures. Lastly all of the children of God should also partake and look to Jesus as their savior. Definitely not looking at the gb in that capacity.
Reply by Christian on 2015-10-13 20:48:04
In so few words you have said it like it is. You show good perception, at least from my own point-of-view. It seems a number of men are not happy unless they urge us to their point of view. Male Ego may have something to do with this, I don't know. Having been part of a religion that kept changing boundaries of belief and insisted that for me to be a faithful Christian I had to believe them - or else, made me feel more like I was part of a herd of cattle rather than part of a flock of sheep. They used the cattle prod to move me in a certain direction and, if that wasn't enough, they also employed metal fences, that they kept moving and added to that they were electrified so as to deter escape.
It would appear that predetermining for others what they should believe is a long worn human failing. I've begun to notice hauntingly familiar echo of that sentiment occurring on this site too from time time.
Yes, a person, a Christian that is, works out their own salvation and God's Word appears to make the way open for at least a couple of outcomes. For me, I have a heavenly hope. Do I see myself ruling as a King or Priest? I feel decidedly unworthy of such an ambition, yet I still partake, happy to be but a boot boy as long as I'm in the heavenly presence. I'm sure others of my fellows may see it differently and that, in my opinion, is neither right or wrong. I'm sure there are many outcomes.
Reply by peely on 2015-10-15 11:59:43
"Looking at the whole of scripture...."
Exact, beautiful words, Deborah.
Reply by Christian on 2015-10-13 20:54:17
A Question for Meleti and Co. Why have you taken away the provision of marking up a comment or reply. Are you showing a fear that too many users will mark-up an opinion expressed by others that contradict your own expressed viewpoint. I, for one, preferred it the way it was until now.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-13 23:15:15
Good Question, Christian, though it troubles me that your first thought wasn't to give us the benefit of the doubt.
Our site was down for a good part of the day today. We've had problems with it for some time. The problem involves Wordpress plugins consuming too many system resources. I thought we'd licked it a couple of months back, but it came back to haunt us today. The service provider blamed the comment plugin called wpDiscuz so I disabled it, though I think the issue goes beyond that.
We have plans to move to a more robust server and a different service providers so that we can reimplement the plugins and even add more for greater functionality. We also want to launch a Spanish site. However, it will cost a lot more than we're currently paying and unfortunately, we've only has a few hundred dollars donated, so we're very short of funds.Reply by MM on 2015-10-14 05:08:14
Meleti, glad to see the site back up and running!
As for donations, I have tried a few times to donate ( my widows mite) but can't get the darned thing to accept my details.
I'm giving my PayPal log in details but it rejects it.
Is the log in required actually a log in to this site?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 07:34:49
Hi MM,
Thanks, we're walking a fine line to keep it up and running and fast--the latter being very much a matter of opinion. We also have to make some adjustments to the donation plug in to make it more intuitive. For now, when you donate (and thank you, by the way) use the Continue link since you don't have a PayPal account. It will accept all major credit cards. I've pasted in a screen capture as it is not obvious. I had to search for 10 seconds to finally notice it. It's like they're really trying to hide it. :)
Reply by MM on 2015-10-14 05:03:41
You could have just asked why, instead of adding a comment that sounds rather cynical.
It didn't leave a pleasant taste. ;)
If there WAS still a down marker I'm afraid you would have got one, Christian!
Comment by Buster on 2015-10-12 18:00:18
My good man you missed a perfect way to talk about Proverbs 4:18 being used as it always is by Organization, it has been a while since I seen the scripture used in a watchtower of course they add there own unique and New Light Slant to it, yup New Light for all in the Paradise, Pg and E bill ain't got nothing on the New Light. :)
Reply by Anonymous on 2015-10-13 00:10:20
Ah yes, the path of the righteous. Or is it referring to doctrinal changes? ;-)
Comment by Buster on 2015-10-12 18:18:36
Also in paragraph nine there is a suppose thinking ( I use thinking more like well I won't say) that says there will be a time to exercise patience. For example ( oh no) we may hear may hear of relatives and friends been raised from the dead, we our selves may have to wait. So be patient, man there was sure a lot of Mays in that paragraph of course not one scripture that says this, but hey be Patient.
It reminds be of this last week article and Habakkuk and in paragraph 13 where the organization makes a whole deal of something that never happened. But at our meeting they were saying answers like it was written in the Bible.
Also in the middle of last week article ( which almost broke me as so much lies were take place) one brother answered and said well one group of religion's said that the world would end in September ( I assume he meant on the news of a small group of Mormons that said something to that effect) and he said they were so wrong and how they said things they have no idea of, I almost / truth be told I laughed outloud, better then to Say What!!!!!!. I hope the brother is not unaware of the organization past Foley's like for so many decades, after decade cough cough 1914,1915,1918, 1925, 1940's, and 1975 among others. So yup be Totally Patient, Nope not any longer.
Love to all from Buster aka great write up
Comment by The Real Anonymous on 2015-10-12 19:05:13
Meleti, I take exception to the assertion about the true nature of the Bible's hope for Christians as you have detailed it above. I disagree with the WT theology on this matter, but I also disagree with yours. Since you did ask your readers to explain their own views, I will try to do so, as briefly as I can.
As I see it, both the WT position regarding the hope for Christians and yours are based on false premises.
1. We agree that the WT assumption about the "other sheep" is incorrect. When John 10:16 says, "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold" Jesus is speaking in the present tense, not with regard to some future group of JWs who would be born some 2,000 years later. It is evident that Jesus was referring to the Gentiles (some of whom would have been alive as Jesus spoke these very words), who would be made part of the little flock of Luke 12:32, when that key of the kingdom was opened up to the Gentiles by Peter.
2. We also agree that Christians become God's children. If that were not so, Jesus' instructions in Matthew 6:9 to us, "You must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father in the heavens ...' " is improper advice, and should have read, "Our Friend in the heavens". If there were really two classes of people, one for whom God is their Father, and another for whom God is merely their "friend" (albeit, a very good one), this would be, in the modern vernacular, "huge". Huge enough to warrant some sort of scriptural explanation. Yet, the scriptures are utterly silent on such a concept for Christians. Yes, Abraham was spoken of as God's friend and not His son, but during his lifetime he did not yet have the benefit of Christ's ransom sacrifice, either.
3. Because of (2), we also agree that there is no biblical justification for any Christian being "prohibited from partaking of the emblems". In Luke 22:19, Jesus said, "Keep doing this in remembrance of me." Unless we obey Christ's commands, we will not have God's approval. After all, Matthew 7:21 tells us, "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." It seems clear that we will not be part of the kingdom of our Lord Jesus if we disobey his commands, and yet that is exactly what WT tells millions of persons to do when they are blocked from partaking.
4. We disagree about the notion that "there is a group of Christians known as the other sheep who have an earthly hope." WT believes there is an earthly hope for the majority of Christians, while you believe what "the Bible actually teaches is that all faithful Christians receive the reward to rule with Jesus as Kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens". I submit that neither view is strictly correct.
5. From (1) above, since Christ's sheep are one flock, one shepherd (John 10:16), it does not make sense to depict them as two separate entities with two completely different destinies. That would make them TWO flocks with one shepherd, which is contrary to the plain words of the Bible.
6. The scriptures clearly state that man was made for the earth, and the earth for man. In Genesis 1, we have, "26 And God went on to say: 'Let us make man in our image ... 31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good." And in Psalm 115:16: "As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men."
If we believe that God was making allowance for humans to be miraculously transformed some day into spirit persons living in heaven, then He would be reneging on the gift of the earth he gave to them, and He would be implying that the earth wasn't nearly as "good" as He claimed it was. That would be a very peculiar thing for God to do.
7. We disagree about the notion that "all faithful Christians receive the reward to rule with Jesus as Kings and priests." This simply cannot be so. If it were, then every faithful person would be a king and priest. If EVERYONE was a kin, who would there be left to rule over? The "unrighteous"? What if there were a great many faithful Christians, but that many kings and priests were not needed? What if a person didn't WANT to be a king? Will they be forced into the job against their will, even if all they wanted was a quiet life out of the "limelight" of kingly responsibility?
We disagree about the characterization of the Christian's reward as being "in the kingdom of the heavens", if only because this wording seems intentionally vague. If a person's REWARD is in the kingdom of the heavens, does that understanding demand that the PERSONS THEMSELVES are also in heaven, residing as transformed spirit persons? I submit that these are two completely separate things.
8. We are faced with a staggering problem. Christ is clearly depicted as going to heaven, described nowhere more plainly than in Hebrews 9:24: "For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." However, WHERE, I ask you, does the Bible say that 'when a faithful Christian dies and is resurrected, he becomes a non-corporeal spirit person and lives out their life in heaven'? Try as you may, there is not a single verse in the Bible which contains this as a simple statement. One would think that a doctrine of such enormous personal consequences to the life of a Christian would be spelled out in plain language - somewhere - yet it is no where to be found. This is a deep subject, but I submit that many references to heaven are symbolic, or refer to a person's "hope" but not where their 'residence' will be, or are part of visions or prophecies in Revelation, for instance.
9. We must also ask, how will all these now-resurrected, now-immortal, invisible spirit persons manage to rule mankind, if no one can see them? Will they rule by "remote control"? Will they 'inspire' or 'possess' some earthly humans, and thus rule through an almost bureaucratic level of control using human intermediaries? That would be very strange, would it not? Are they going to periodically materialize, "popping in and out" as needed? We must be mindful that the correct translation of Revelation 5:12 is "you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings ON the earth." Not OVER the earth.
10. Finally, we must note that the very first mention of a prospect of being immortal spirit persons, having God-like qualities, did not originate with God or Christ, but with Satan. What does Genesis 3 show the Serpent saying? "YOU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad." So, what was Eve promised? (a) She would be immortal, and by implication (b) she would perhaps be a powerful spirit person like God was. We have to face facts: The hope and expectation of humans living in heaven as spirits is a teaching of demons.
Where does all this leave us?
(a) No one is going to heaven. Only Christ went there, and no one else.
(b) The kings and priests will be here on earth, ruling their human subjects side by side on the earth.
(c) The job of being a king and priest is temporary. However many get this assignment, it will end at the close of the 1,000 years. At that time, they will give up their role as administrators of earth's affairs, and God will be all things to everyone. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-10-13 06:08:07
These objections fade away if you consider that we also believe that:
1) The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to rule on earth. Rev 21
2) The subjects to rule over are the nations, akin to what Christopher pointed out.
Christ said I am going to prepare a place for you. That where I am, you may be also.
Finally your point about man created for earth is invalid because Christians are to be born again as a new creation. New creation, new purpose.Reply by peely on 2015-10-13 11:38:36
Hi Alex,
I thought I'd comment on your words that man created for earth is now invalid. Am I reading that right? If so, I feel we cannot forget that Christ replaced Adam, the first human to inherit the earth. Christ is the seed that Abraham was promised, a seed to inherit the earth, under the “Sarah” covenant. Gal 3:16; Roman 4:13
In Jesus, Ps 37:11; 2:8 was fulfilled – the “meek” shall inherit the earth. Heb.1:2; 1Cor.15:28; Col.1:16; Eph.1:10,20,21; Matt.28:18
The promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the earth is also made to the “144,000”. This is the whole concept around the “Bride of Christ”, is it not? We have a husband – Christ - and a Bride – the completed Temple - which together bring life to all mankind who are under a new covenant promise to produce “seed” 2 Cor 11:2
Once this Bride is united with Christ, the inheritance of the earth is shared with all God’s children, the seed of this union – all faithful mankind inherit the earth. Acts.20:35; Rom.8:19,21; 2Pet.3:13; Rev 22:2,17
"whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21
Not all Christians have been given this responsibility in serving as the Bride, although you have, as I believe you are an anointed one (correct me if I’m wrong?) and as a “new creation” which makes it possible to serve on earth as well as in heaven. 2 Cor 5:17
Ephesians helps me with this understanding of God’s purpose.
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
“as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Eph 1:10
The inheritance of the earth is “obtained” through Christ in verse 11-14:
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
It is the inheritance God promised Abraham's seed long ago.
God sees all things before they happen. I feel His plan has been established since the beginning, for His creation, the earth, mankind and all life forms on it. Mat 25:34 We still have the availability to the blessings given Adam, blessings given to all meek ones promised in Ps 37:11
love in Christ,
peely
Reply by Chris on 2015-10-14 14:47:44
If you want to take a book of symbology and make it literal and say that a literal city is coming out of heaven. Here's my view on it and many would agree. "The holy city -- Government of God. A "city" signifies a religious government backed by power and influence. In Scripture a city represents a government. For instance, symbolic
Babylon is denominated "that great city [government] which ruleth over the kings of the earth." (Rev. 17:18).
It is not a literal city.Reply by peely on 2015-10-15 11:50:36
I don't believe I have ever thought it was a literal city. As you say, Revelation is symbolic. Rev 11:2 speaks of this "city" as being trampled by Gentiles. Matt 24:15 confirms this as a "holy place", Dan 11:31 as the "sanctuary fortress", Dan 11:16 as the "Glorious Land".
So what is it? Jerusalem is measured in Zech 2:1-5 as well as Rev 11:1. There it is the "Temple" being measured. The Temple as we know it is "New Jerusalem", the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 3:16
Rev 3:12 speaks of pillars in the Temple - faithful chosen ones..."and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."
They are then,as the spiritual fulfillment of the New Covenant, "New Jerusalem"/ the Bride united with Christ, thus with God. Rev 21:2
How it is arranged? Well, we know that Ezekiel's vision of the temple arrangement in all its detailed glory was also a prophesy foreshadowing the Temple to come. Heb 9:11
Also, there is Heb 8:5 to consider -
"who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
How this Holy City is manifested on the earth will be an unmistakable event.
love,
peely
http://pearl-holycity.blogspot.com/
Reply by Chris on 2015-10-15 14:47:22
Peely Totally incorrect. I never said that all things in the book of Revelation is symbolic. The heavenly Jerusalem is not literal. If that were so then God would be literally sitting on a throne because we all know her as a rump to sit with. This would mean God has literal eyes. The tabernacle is a copy of the reality. It shows heaven and earth. God does not literally live in a two roomed abode which he sits in the second room behind an incense altar. If you want believe it is a literal place then so be it. Why does God's abode have walls? Who is he trying to keep out. These are all symbolic. God does not sit in a heavenly abode with there being an outer court and inner court. Our names are not literally written in a book of paper. Or there are not literal seals on a scroll. These are in human terms so they we may understand them. They are not literal. Remember that the kingdom is not coming with outward display and it is certainly not coming down out of the sky.
Reply by Chris on 2015-10-15 14:55:46
Here is an interesting article by the Bible Students on this.
Reply by on 2015-10-15 16:32:46
"If you want believe it is a literal place then so be it. "
I think you are still misunderstanding me, Chris. My words were, "I don’t believe I have ever thought it was a literal city.". The "city" is God's inheritance in his faithful ,sealed chosen ones. They ARE the Temple and are PART of the Temple. How God transforms this for all to understand waits to be seen.
When you are speaking of the kingdom coming with no outward display - this is Christ's Kingdom of a thousand years. It began in the the first century when Christ sat down aside his Father. When the New Covenant is complete, then God's Kingdom is ushered in.
"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Rev 5:13
Reply by Chris on 2015-10-15 20:41:43
Now that I agree with.
Reply by Chris on 2015-10-14 14:49:12
And also if this city is the kingdom then the bible is wrong to say that the kingdom is coming without outward observation.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-13 08:42:52
Hi The Real Anonymous
I was asking for a defense of the JW doctrine of the other sheep.
Your argument seems to be against the understanding that some Christians will go to heaven.
I don't believe the JW Other Sheep doctrine is Scriptural. However, the exact nature of the reward that Christians do receive is not so easily defined.
I will answer the points you make that need a response, but beyond that, if you wish to engage in further discussion, may I suggest you open a topic in Discuss the Truth.
On 4, understand that I am not stating that Christians, of which there are 2 billion on earth today, will not live on earth in the new world. Billions will live on earth in the new world. There is going to be a resurrection of the unrighteous. Since unrighteous ones cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens, these must, by default, end up on earth. However, there is no earthly hope. A man should not reason that he will continue to be a fornicator and drunkard so as to remain unrighteous because he hopes to be resurrected to life on earth as part of the resurrection of the unrighteous. That second resurrection is an eventuality not a hope.
On 6, yes they do. But such a declaration does not tie God's hands. If he chooses to reward some with spiritual bodies in the manner of Jesus, that is his right. (Ro 6:5; 1Co 15:42-49) It doesn't undo his purpose for the earth and humankind, nor does it imply the earth isn't good.
On 7, you have it correct. The kings and priests rule over the unrighteous. We are not talking about good people here as most consider goodness. We are talking about righteous people. The only way to become righteous is by the free gift of God's declaration that one is righteous. (Ro 3:24; 5:1) That declaration is based on faith, which very few Christians have. They have belief, but faith is another thing. For example, every Jehovah's Witness I've ever known will say he has faith in Jesus, but how many are willing to take up their torture stake and follow him? That is the level of faith required. Taking up the torture stake means being willing to give up everything. For Jehovah's Witnesses that means being willing to suffer the reproach of the Christ (disfellowshipping in JW parlance) who was rejected by his people. How many Jehovah's Witnesses will suffer that level of rejection to follow the Christ wherever he goes? How can God declare them righteous if they are not willing to imitate his son?
Regarding your questions: "What if a person didn't WANT to be a king? Will they be forced into the job against their will, even if all they wanted was a quiet life out of the "limelight" of kingly responsibility?"
I will say that the answer to these questions is up to God. However, Jehovah isn't going to force us to accept a reward we don't want. If we don't want to be declared righteous in this system of things, there remains the resurrection of the unrighteous with the prospect of being declared righteous in that to come. However, what Jehovah decides is up to him, of course.
The phrase "in the kingdom of the heavens" occurs 4 times in the NWT and the phrase "kingdom of the heavens", 33 times. I agree that it is intentionally vague. That is God's intention apparently. (1Co 13:12) We get the reward, not because He's painted it out in accurate detail and we've acknowledged that we want it. This isn't a contract where the party of the first part agrees to be faithful until death if the party of the second part meets all the precisely stipulated obligations laid down on paper. We get everlasting life if we obey God unconditionally. And why would we do that? Because we believe that he will be good to us. How he will be good? None of our business. To question him, to demand the details, is to doubt his good character. That is what faith really means. (He 11:6; John 10:18)
On 8, I think we are on the same page, or at least in the same chapter. Christ did go to heaven, but the Bible says he will return to collect his chosen ones. What happens after that is open to debate, though I'm not concerned. I don't have to know whether he takes us all back to heaven or we descend with him in the New Jerusalem to rule on earth, or something else entirely. Whatever he wants is fine with me, because I have faith that whatever it is, will be far and away better than anything I can imagine. (1Co 2:9)
On 9, these questions are irrelevant. It is as if we are suggesting that because we can't make sense of how this will work, then it obviously can't work. Let's agree to leave the technical details in God's hands.
On 10, Satan is astute. He wraps his lies in truth. Or are you suggesting that because Satan suggested it first, Jehovah is blocked from doing it? If so, then it's a good thing Satan didn't say, "Don't worry. Even if I'm wrong, you and your offspring will still be resurrected."
If you want to carry the discussion further, by all means, please avail yourself of Discuss the Truth.Reply by The Real Anonymous on 2015-10-14 21:05:05
Meleti,
Thank you for your even-handed response. If my initial comments have prompted yours and a number of other thoughtful responses, then my intentions have been met. I would not debate or discuss it further. By the way, I have found the general tone of the Discuss The Truth forum to be unpleasant, and the content to be disorganized and haphazard. IMHO we would all be better off if you discontinued DTT and focused solely on what transpires here. I assume that in most cases, when you suggest that someone to go DTT, it's because you don't want to hear it any more, and you want to say so diplomatically. I understand that. For me, I have found that DTT runs counter to the kind of discussions I want to have, and I feel there is no place for me there any more. I never visit the DTT web site any more.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-15 07:59:12
Thank you for your thoughts as well.
"...when you suggest that someone to go DTT, it’s because you don’t want to hear it any more, and you want to say so diplomatically..."
Not really. I'm willing to continue the discussion there. Apollos started Discuss the Truth because we found that there were issues that our readers wanted to debate and lacking another venue, used the comment section of BP. So a topic on say, "1914", could contain an extensive debate thread on say, "the nature of Christ". It became hard to follow, especially when others wanted to weigh in. Discuss the Truth allows anyone to start up a topic on any Scriptural or relevant news subject and facilitates the input from others.
Granted, sometimes threads can get out of hand and the moderators do the best they can to preserve freedom of expression while safeguarding the ambiance of the site. It's not an easy task.
Reply by Leaving Quietly on 2015-10-14 11:26:56
#8: "However, WHERE, I ask you, does the Bible say that ‘when a faithful Christian dies and is resurrected, he becomes a non-corporeal spirit person and lives out their life in heaven’? Try as you may, there is not a single verse in the Bible which contains this as a simple statement."
I think Meleti addressed this in his comment regarding #6, but it bears repeating. 1 Cor 15:42-49 (I would add verses 50-57).
Vs 44: It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
Vs 49: And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
Vs 51: Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,
Vs 53: For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.
This said, I do not agree that all will stay in heaven forever. The co-rulership is for the 1000 years. (Rev 20:4) After that, New Jerusalem comes down OUT OF HEAVEN. And, 2 Pet 3:13 clearly states that righteousness will dwell in both "new heavens" and "a new earth."
Comment by Christopher on 2015-10-12 19:37:40
As Bible Students we don't believe that Jesus is our mediator. We believe that if you read the definition of the word Mediator and Advocate then you will see that Jesus is the advocate for true Christians. (1 John 2:1) When we have an advocate we we have skmekne on our side pleading for us. An advocate is on our side reconciling us to the father like a lawyer. A mediator is between two parties at odd and is not on the side of mankind. And we know that mankind is not being mediated right now for many don't believe in God or believe in God. We believe that Jesus will be the mediator of mankind in the millennium. We also believe that billions will learn righteousness in the millennium. (Isaiah 26:9). We believe that the world of mankind will walk up the Highway of Holiness (Isaiah 35:8) and learn God standards. When they are brought to an accurate knowledge of the truth they will be tested under full knowledge of Good and Evil when Satan is let out. (Rev 20:7-10). If we are righteous NOW while sin and death reign then we are called "overcomers". (1 John 2:13) We also believe that everyone will have 100 years in the millennium or be cut off. (Isaiah 65:20). During the 1000 year judgement period it says in Isaiah 26:9 that the world will learn righteousness. So if judgement is 1000 years and they will learn righteousness then they are resurrected with perfect knowledge or already having full knowledge. God has a Divine Plan for the Ages and everyone is in it. Sinner and righteous. Now I don't believe that ALL true Christians are going to reign with Christ. Many aren't called to that high calling. It's a special calling. I do believe the 144,000. The JWs have perverted it into a separation NOW. There is only one call in the Gospel Age and it's not to the earth.
Reply by Anonymous on 2015-10-13 00:07:01
1 Tim 2:5,6 If Jesus is not our mediator, then who is?
Eph 4:4-6 One hope, one faith, one baptism - to whom should this apply?
Rom 5:17-21 Could this ruling as kings merely refer to ruling as kings in life, having conquered death through having received the free gift of being declared righteous?
1 John 5:1-5 Who is born from God, and who can conquer the world?
In the book of Revelation, what things are given to the "one who conquers"?Reply by Chris on 2015-10-14 14:41:36
We do not believe Jesus is the mediator for the church class. We believe that he is our advocate. Advocate is on our side like a lawyer. Jesus is not mediating the new covenant to mankind. Jesus is advocating for the church. He is not mediating for mankind yet. See my definition above for the difference between advocate and mediator. And their scriptures.
Reply by on 2015-10-15 06:58:23
People believe what they want to believe I guess. But is it true? That is the question ultimately
Reply by on 2015-10-14 14:43:45
Your scriptures cited for this Eph 4:4-6 does not mean that we are kings in this life. Jesus said that if we are faithful in this life we will be kings and priests. As you know we are neither right now.
Comment by peely on 2015-10-12 20:46:48
The continued mockery of the Thousand Year doctrine is that it is still to come. Christ has been ruling within the heavens since he was resurrected. Scriptures support this fully. 2 Cor 10:4,5; Eph 6:12; Gen 3:15; Rom 13:12; Matt 10:34; Rev 17:14.
If we don’t visually see this, does this mean we can’t read these scriptures and not rationalize on the battle of truth over lies at hand? We are in it and must chose our side carefully and decisively. Many have squeezed successfully, but barely, through a crack in the Watchtower walls – that alone should show us how difficult this battle has been. Rev 20:9
All signs – the release of Satan from the Abyss, the Great Tribulation; should we…again….consider them not upon us if we can’t visually see it?
A breakdown of Matt 25:31,32,46, by Pearl Doxsey -
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory (started in first Century -John1:14; Matt.26:64; Luke21:27; Heb.12:1; Acts7:55,56), and all the angels with him (Chosen ones who prove faithful -Matt.16:27; 1Thess.3:13; 2Thess.1:10,12; John17:10;Jude1:14; Rev.17:14; 19:14,8; 14:1; Eph.2:6; Rev.12:5), he will sit on his glorious throne (Ps.110:1,2; Eph.3:10; Ps.110:1;John16:33; 1Cor.15:25; 1John3:8; Rev.3:21; Matt.12:28; John12:31; 16:11; 1Cor.15:26; Heb.2:14; Col.1:13) (again, began in the first century).
All the nations will be gathered before him (Heb.4:13), and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats (Heb.4:1,2; Rev.20:12; John3:17,18,19,20,21). Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
The Watchtower teaches that “144,000” are in heaven once it begins, yet anointed have been ruling with Christ during their lifetime….on the earth during this symbolic thousand years. Rev. 5:9,10 We are now facing Armageddon with God’s Kingdom on its heels.
"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." 1 Cor 15:24
What we do NOW will bring about our final judgment, not after a fabrication that we need a thousand literal years to reach perfection in order to be tested. None before us have done so. Job passed Satan’s test as an “imperfect” one. We, too, can pass Satan’s demand to sift us NOW by turning away from false teachings and idolatry of the WT and take sides in this ongoing battle with Christ. Once it’s done, its done. Rom 9:28
Comment by peely on 2015-10-12 21:37:08
I’ve already made mention of the thousand year reign of Christ. But, I do have a question, meleti. Your words:
“What the Bible actually teaches is that all faithful Christians receive the reward to rule with Jesus as Kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens. These are the ones who will shepherd, instruct, and heal the billions of unrighteous resurrected who will return to live during judgment day – the thousand year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Now, are you saying all Christians alive today are anointed ones? The early temple arrangement required priests, as well as kings to be anointed. They alone were allowed to minister within the temple.
"So you shall put them on Aaron your brother and on his sons with him. You shall anoint them, consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister to Me as priests." Ex 28:41
"And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments" Lev 16:32
“For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.” Mal 2:7
“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” 1 John 2:27
"you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." 1 Pet 2:5
"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them." Rev 7:15
What if, meleti, the arrangement still stands that God has chosen his priesthood for the healing and benefit of all mankind. I am an anointed one; I love the earth and hope to someday work on it, and enjoy it with all mankind, as well as with all “144,000” and Christ; This certainly cannot be done from heaven, since the Holy City remember, comes down out of heaven to be among all creation. Rev 3:12 This doesn’t mean that servitude is not required in heaven, which is evident by John 1:51 and Gen 28:10-17:
" Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”
“Ascending and descending” in both accounts gives us a vivid picture of Christ and his priesthood moving between the state of “heaven” and earth, bringing life-giving nourishment directly from God.
Food for thought,
peely
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-12 22:45:07
>>Now, are you saying all Christians alive today are anointed ones?
No, I'm saying that all faithful Christians receive the reward to rule with Jesus.
>>This certainly cannot be done from heaven
Why are you arguing against a point I never made?Reply by peely on 2015-10-13 00:20:44
Dear Meleti,
The comment - "this certainly cannot be done from heaven" - was not made to argue with you, but a general response to not only Chris's concern (Can we officially say that we are preaching another gospel when we preach an earthly hope because the apostles didn’t preach an earthly hope for Christ’s followers?) of which I should have referenced; but yes, also your words, "receive the reward to rule with Jesus as Kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens".
I admit it is a statement rather unclear to me as to where you feel kings and priests will reign from, heaven or earth. This prompted my comment above as well as mentioning the location of the Holy City.
I had no intention of sarcasm or confrontation with you. Have you ever known me to take on an argument with you, meleti? This is an exchange of understanding, getting down to the truth of all matters concerning Christ and the Father. That is my only goal.
I hope you are comforted in knowing this.
peelyReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-13 08:21:03
Peely,
I have no problem with you arguing with me. It's how we learn and instruct. However, you seemed to be working on the assumption I was stating something which I was careful not to state. That was my point.
Perhaps you were working on the assumption I believe that Christians will rule from heaven because I used the phrase "in the kingdom of the heavens" which occurs 4 times in the NTW. The phrase "kingdom of the heavens" occurs 33 times.
However, "kingdom in the heavens" doesn't occur at all.Reply by Chris on 2015-10-18 07:21:28
Meleti. It doesn't say Kingdom IN the heavens but it does say at Matthew 5:12
"12 for great is your reward in heaven."Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-18 09:33:07
Agreed Chris. The whole subject needs a lot more investigating.
I'm finding among friends that I speak to that a major roadblock to accepting that we are all God's Children and that we should all partake of the emblems is that it means (in their minds) that we all go off to heaven never to return. Jehovah's Witnesses do not want to go to heaven. They believe the anointed like the Governing Body will go to heaven and that's okay. They feel no jealousy for being excluded. Quite the opposite. They want to be excluded. They want only to live on earth.
I haven't had the time to properly research this, but from what I've learned so far, it is not possible to a make a categorical statement as to where and what heaven is as it relates to those making up the resurrection of the righteous. I believe, based on Paul's words, that we simply cannot know at this point, which is where faith comes in; faith in the good character of God. We must believe that God is good and thus would only offer us something of surpassing value, something that would make us truly happy.
Reply by peely on 2015-10-13 23:12:13
No wonder I've had a hard time getting my comment to stick. You've been updating.
Yep, meleti, I was working on an assumption. Thank you for pointing it out.
Comment by Claudelle on 2015-10-13 03:49:38
Meleti. You say you went off topic. You didn't, you extrapolated the real meaning and intentions hidden in a very crafty and confusing WT study article. Someone has to say it like it is.
This" culling" is indicative of much that is wrong. There is something awfully amiss with this religion. It seems to be shooting itself in the foot over and over again.
Comment by Claudelle on 2015-10-13 04:12:51
Every comment here is reminding me in a strange way, of how the Apostles approached Christ looking for extra insights or hoping to out do one another.
Therein lies the problem. None of us actually know. We can't, we don't have that much permission.
The real issue is to attempt to live according to the things shown and explained to us through Christ. If I make it. I will not have any particular hope of being a prince, king or a damn page.
Do the right thing by people "now". Just do it. Christ commanded that. Wait until later and let us all see where we end up.Reply by Ash on 2015-10-13 06:21:58
I agree with your sentiment regarding this Article I wish the WT organisation would adopt this view at times rather than riding on speculation, though they won't being gods self proclaimed mouthpiece. There is nothing wrong in saying you don't know, no one has all the answers, saying that I enjoy reading peoples Analysis on the deeper things contained in the bible it allows me to think.
Reply by Menrov on 2015-10-13 08:17:42
More and more I come to the conclusion that actually none of us can really know what someone else must do and what is going to happen. Main reason: the bible does not tell it all. We do not have the original writings but only distant translations. Many translations.
We only have a canon of considered holy writings that are approved by men.Are they all and are all selected true holy writings to be used by believers?
What can one do if the writings cannot be proven to be fully accurate or cannot determine which parts are and which are not? In that case, it makes sense to try to understand the message. That is what, in my view, all followers of Jesus did when on earth. There was not bible yet, not complete view. Just the core message: the messiah would come.
I therefore believe that one should not focus on details, wording, grammar etc in the bible as we have today in order to derive a view of the truth. Because all one reads is the outcome the translator created. Could be correct, relatively correct or not correct at all..
However, the message in fact in all translations is the same: Love your neighbour,
I believe nobody can say how a Christian or believer should behave to be acceptable by our Judge. There is no law like in the OT. That law was very detailed, specific but eventually the leaders abused to law to control people and establish a power position. The Law of Christ (NT) is about love. No specific rule or articles. As such, if one sticks to this, it cannot be abused to control people or to establish a position of power. However, because religion added their views on the so-called Christian law, it gave them just what the pharisees had as well: a tool to control people and establish a position of power.
Was the criminal a good believer? Were all the people that threw their sick people in front of Jesus good believers? Was Saulus? Was Cornelius? Yes, they all had their strong points but we only know a few things about them.
My point is that at that stage all these people we acceptable to Jesus. He cured them, promised them, forgave their sins, ate with them etc. Did they love the Lord according to our standards ? Did they have faith in Jesus according to our standards? Did they follow a Christian life according to our standards? Did they show the right love for the Lord according to our standards?
If I compare that to the requirements to become or be considered a good JW for example, it shows how much (this) religion has deviated from the principle Jesus provided.
Let us not forget that there are a couple of billion people not considered or classified as Christian. According to the law of Christ, that does not per definition exclude them from beings saved or of being acceptable to Jesus.
To love your neigbour (fellow human) covers all that according to our common view, defines a Christian. And regardless culture, parents, environment, skills, intelligence, anyone can show love for their neighbour.
Comment by miken on 2015-10-13 07:08:11
"Did Jehovah fail to answer every prayer except the one involving the Warwick construction?"
Apparently he also answered another prayer
http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Jehovah-s-Witnesses-deny-rumours-UK-headquarters/story-27899763-detail/story.html
Comment by AR on 2015-10-13 23:19:04
Yes, whatever happened to the saying, let your yes mean yes. They should care for these ones seeing that they have given the good part of their lives to the organisation . But what do I know anyway, unless you can see the full picture from within, it's difficult to make that judgement . But what doesn't help the GB's decision to sell properties & lay off staff is buying properties as they did last year. Not just any property but luxury apts..Web Site: poughkeepsie journal article. In part it says"Jehovah's Witnesses now owns a major apartment complex in the Town of Fishkill.
Some tenants say they've been told their leases will not be renewed, but it is unclear what the group plans for the property or if the land might become tax exempt.
The sale of the 250-unit Rivercrest Luxury Apartments closed Dec. 3, the deed on file at the Dutchess County Clerk's Office shows. While sale price is not stated, the transfer tax indicates a transaction for $57 million." Dec 3 , 2014 oh well, forget about Jesus words at Luke 12:32-34
Comment by Zua (from Angola) on 2015-10-14 00:21:12
Both in this and in the previous articles, we often come across the expressions “we”, "us", "ours" (written by the FDS [who are responsible of providing this "spiritual food"]). My question is: since the members of the FDS claim to have the hope of going to heaven, how can they make statements like these:
"How might we prepare now for life in God’s new world?" and “Similarly, we can prepare for life in the new world by living now, to the extent possible, as we expect to live then”? (Paragraph 4) Are they misleading the Watchtower readers?Reply by Menrov on 2015-10-14 02:05:58
Zua, your question: Are they misleading the Watchtower readers
Let's say, the WT writers apply a style of writing which is aimed at "leading" the reading, leading them into a thinking pattern, a pre-defined conclusion, an agreed assumption.
The use of we, us, our etc, is part of that style.
Is it misleading? I leave that to the reader to decide....but it smells like it.
Reply by Leaving Quietly on 2015-10-14 11:32:11
The assumption that the FDS (aka Governing Body) writes these articles is incorrect. They rarely write WT articles. They read them and approve them for publication, but the vast majority are written by someone in the Writing Department who most likely is not a professed anointed one.
Reply by Zua (from Angola) on 2015-10-14 17:16:10
Even though not all Watchtower articles are written by the FDS but who is responsible for their contents? Are they the personnel of Writing Department or the FDS? In case a new explanation is given on a certain Bible matter, who is ascribed for such explanation? Are they the personnel of Writing Department or the FDS? Even JW’s publications state that the Watchtower magazine (and other JW’s publications) are the “food in the proper time” provided by the FDS (Matthew 24:45-47). The FDS is the one responsible for the content of all JW’s publications.
Comment by Father jack on 2015-10-14 02:51:33
Never mind the doctrine . Ive read the article and it seems to be an attempt to qoush feelings of resentment about the bethel lay offs these poor people they give thier whole lives to the service only to be chucked out on the street . What a tragedy .
Comment by chas on 2015-10-14 05:39:53
As a registered not for profit in New York State aren't Watchtower finances available?? From N.Y.S.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 07:53:01
That's a very good question. I don't even know where to begin to find the answer though.
Comment by Leaving Quietly on 2015-10-14 11:12:30
Is the downsizing at the various Bethels worldwide real? Up to this point, I've been operating on it being a rumor as I haven't seen any formal announcement anywhere that this is for real. I've read the forums and even given a comment or two on it, but it's just a rumor, as far as I aware.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 12:20:17
Very real. The US Bethel family will shrink by 1000. Up in Canada, they are expecting a 25% force reduction. Someone told me they have 600 in their family, though I don't know if that last number is accurate.
Reply by AFRICAINE on 2015-10-15 08:21:22
You can safely accept this as the confirmed situation!
Comment by Mr Noodle on 2015-10-14 16:35:28
The Watchtower Real Estate Society strikes again !!!
Comment by Deborah on 2015-10-14 17:32:28
Meleti, was the introduction of gentiles into the assembly of God first introduced with the establishment of the Christian congregation?
No. Gentiles were always welcome to convert to Judaism. When Jesus in John 10 said he had other sheep beside the fold he was already referring to he could not have meant gentiles who for centuries had already been accepted into that Jewish fold.
Perhaps there is room for further thought on whether in John 10 Jesus was referring to gentiles or to the sheep he spoke of in Matthew 25.Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 19:02:26
By the way, Meleti Vivlon,what does your screen name mean?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 19:29:39
It's derived from a phonetic translation of "bible study" into Greek. It came out as vivlon meleti, but I thought Meleti sounded more like a first name, and vivlon like a surname.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 19:36:04
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.
My screen name means Bee.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-14 19:23:58
Hi Deborah,
You need to look at the whole context. First, Jesus was speaking to the Jews, many of them his opposers. (John 10:19) What would they have understood by "this fold"? Proselytes (converted and circumcised gentiles) were considered as Jews. They would have been included in "this fold", both in Jesus' mind and that of his listeners. Jesus was only sent to the "lost sheep of Israel", which would include all proselytes. (Mt 10:6) If he had stated that the other sheep he spoke of were gentiles, there would have surely been a riot. It was not lawful for a Jew and a gentile to mix. Consider Peter's words at the conversion of the first gentile Christian.
“. . .YOU well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race; . . .” (Ac 10:28)
So Jesus was circumspect, using the phrase "other sheep", but intentionally not identifying them. We know that the gentiles did not convert to Judaism before converting to Christianity, but remained "men of the nations". Therefore, they were not the "lost sheep of Israel", but "other sheep" who came into the Christian sheepfold under the one shepherd. This understanding was only manifest 3 1/2 years after Jesus death and even then it caused a lot of controversy among the Jewish Christians. Many wanted the gentile Christians to get circumcised; in effect, making them into Jewish proselytes, but that was not in accordance with Jesus' words.
As for the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew chapter 25, we first must remember it is a parable or illustration. Parables are used to illustrate a truth. Is the truth being illustrated that there would be in the distant future a class of Christian with an earthly hope? Nothing in the parable suggests that. Only that the sheep get everlasting life. You have possibly been affected by JW doctrine with regard to this parable. I know I was for many years. For an alternate understanding, have a look at this article: WT Study: Loyally Supporting Christ's Brothers.Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-14 19:40:03
Meleti,
" What would they have understood by “this fold”? Proselytes (converted and circumcised gentiles) were considered as Jews. They would have been included in “this fold”, both in Jesus’ mind and that of his listeners. Jesus was only sent to the “lost sheep of Israel”, which would include all proselytes."
Exactly.
Comment by Mark-O on 2015-10-14 22:25:32
Think about this. First notice Bethel states crazy things like this, expecting JWs to "obey the lifesaving organization", the REFUGE:
Figuratively speaking, however, God’s people will flee to the refuge that Jehovah provides."" (WT 07/15/2015, pg. 16, par. 7-8)
WT quote (WT 11/15/2013, pg. 20, par. 17, #3):
“”Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered:…
[And sandwiched into the admonishment:]
(3) At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.
Yet Bethel cannot even be a refuge and care for their own? HOW are JWs expected to obey that callous corporate entity, when it cannot even care for its own in house staff and it demonstrates instead CUT-THROAT behavior?
What a farce. Flee while you can. (Matt24:15)
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-10-17 23:14:20
In regards to the downsizing being done by the GB,so many have said how beneficial it is,how that can be for those who have been instutionalised in bethel, who now have been dismissed is beyond me ?
As I think back over my years in the truth one thing that is evident is that the society has NEVER been good at giving,it very much is set up to take from its members,the individual brothers and sisters are the true support,but they are not the "organization". It's the generosity at an organisational level that's non exsistant.
This very much parallels the Pharisees of Jesus day,asking a lot but give nothing,not in real terms.
Other religions do a much better job,I know that here in Australia most of the affordable nursing homes are sponsored by the major churches, most older JWS are going to find themselves in one of those since most have made no preparation for retirement. So once their usefulness to the society is finished,"false religion" will be looking after them in their old age.
To ignore this is how one gets trained in hypocrisy and is taught how to lie to themselves.
Comment by Evergreen on 2015-10-19 07:27:08
Hi everyone,
In relation to the 144,000, whether this is a symbolic number or actual number I am still uncertain. However, I would lean more toward the fact it may be an actual number given the number of times it is mentioned in the book of Revelation.
My own personal understanding which I have believed for many years now is this:
1. First and foremost, we are all children of God and therefore born again.(John 3:1-8)
2. There have been millions of Christians from the time of Christ, but that CERTAIN ones are 'chosen' or elected to rule as king and priests over/upon/on the earth. (Rev 14:1-5)
3. These ones initially ascend to heaven to be with Jesus (Mark 13:27), but shortly after descend from heaven after Armageddon reign upon the earth-(the perfect rulership for mankind) (Rev 21: 9-14)
4. I don't believe watchtowers teaching that ONLY Jehovah's witnesses will survive Armageddon/the great tribulation. I believe that Satan has divided Christians into the thousands of denominations and faith groups we see today, but that sincere Christians from many of these groups will survive at Armageddon (along with Christians within Jehovah's witnesses). Survivors will also include the blameless ones? Only God can judge who these ones will include. (prov 2:21)
5. The resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous after Armageddon/great tribulation (Acts 24:15)
6. Jesus and the chosen Kings and priests (the elect) reign over the earth for a thousand years (rev 20:4-6)
7. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be let loose. This again will be a time of testing (Rev 20:1,2,7-10)
8. After Satan destruction and righteous humans finally at peace with Satan out of the way, there will no longer be a need for Jesus to reign over mankind having completed the work he was assigned
1 Corinthians 15:24–28 explains this very clearly
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Note: These are my own personal views on what I believe, but very much respect that others may have a different angle on this subject matter.
regards
Evergreen
Comment by Anonymous on 2017-05-07 00:16:17
Sitting here with my mouth hanging open. This is all so sad. I retired at 55 because of health issues and receive a reasonable retirement pension, you mean to tell me that someone in their late 60's, early 70's possibly older is just being turned away with nothing?!? Just horrible!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-05-07 08:05:17
Sad to say, that has happened in Bethels and in the ranks of special pioneers across the world.