Confessing Christ

Comment by Out of Africa on 2016-01-04 12:53:22

Hello Meleti
You might like to check this reference: "Christ is the source of truth. (Mt 1:17)". Think you may have been wanting John 1:17.

• Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-01-04 13:08:19

  Thanks OoA, it's been fixed. No doubt you have saved other readers a considerable amount of head-scratching as they tried to figure out how the number of generations from Abraham to David established Christ as the source of truth.

  • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-04 13:21:30

    Well, maybe it will lead to the date of Armageddon :-).
    My husband just mentioned this verse about the generations today to point out that according to scripture, the length of one generation is 42 years.

    • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-04 22:37:21

      as a serving elder who now knows the real jesus my first thoughts were to leave the religion but then i thought how does this help the brothers so i witness between doors with those i work with and make pointed comments in my public talks about being saved by faith and not by works i change many main points and ignore some sections long may i get away with it

      • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-05 01:54:02

        Jabez, may Jehovah bless you for what you are doing and no doubt accomplishing. In our family's case, we were already pariahs with little influence in the truth before we were awakened. So were sadly in a position of being ignored by most already and thus unable to influence any. My remaining 'friends' are already shunning me.
        I would have followed your course if things had been different for us, knowing that it won't last and that one would be found out eventually and at that point be willing to lose all to make a stand.
        I feel it is important to not compromise in any way, especially with my relationship with Jesus. The sin of the evil slave is hypocrisy (Mat 24:51). We are all told to drink Jesus blood and eat his flesh - John 6:51-58. That would be a real test of our faith if we are still associated with a congregation as it would be little hypocritical to not partake in public and then do so privately.

        • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-05 02:13:24

          i planed to take the emblems last year but chickend out but another brother did take them i went to see him with a book i had written in refuting many jw teachings only to find he had a book withthe same sort of things needless to say i will be taking the emblems this year

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 08:03:42

            Wonderful. We all need encouragement from others from time to time. Even our Lord needed that on the eve of his death.

          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 01:34:18

            Greetings jabez,
            I am not sure that partaking of the emblems at the Kingdom Hall during the memorial celebration is particularly important. If one believes the whole approach of JW's with regard to partaking the emblems is flawed, then partaking the emblems in a flawed commemoration would be meaningless. Why attach any importance to a fundamentally flawed ceremony? Would Jehovah value an action that is taken as part a of celebration that is defective? I'm not making a statement, I'm just posing the question.
            All the best.

            • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-07 01:53:26

              i understand what your saying about the jw version of the memorial but the scriptures do say gather together and this year there will be two of us partaking what a blessing that will be to share with my new found brother but even on ones own it could be viewed as fellowship with jesus and by the way thanks to all for your greetings i feel part of a great community here

              • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 02:20:08

                Greetings Jabez,
                Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. I guess what I'm trying to say is: Would it dishonour God or Christ if one doesn't partake during the memorial celebration at the Kingdom Hall?
                All the best.

                • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-07 07:31:40

                  The answer to this is not as simple as it might seem.
                  Should all Christians partake of the emblems? Absolutely. Of that, there can be no question because it is a specific command of our Lord: "Keep doing this in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19) This command was extended to all Christians. (1Co 11:24-25)
                  This commemoration does not have to be done at the Kingdom hall, however. For the past few years, a group of us have met privately to partake. Some have also gone to the memorial at the KH the next day. (For the past few years at least, the JW memorial has been held one day after the actual event was held.)
                  If you attended a Catholic mass, would you partake? You couldn't because the wine is not included in the ceremony for the laity. If you went to a church where the wine is replaced with grape juice, would you partake? Would that not be disrespecting the emblems? There are churches where the wine and bread are both used and all partake. Would you partake if you went to one of these? Perhaps you'd be disinclined if you believed the church in question misrepresents God and Christ by their beliefs--Trinity, Hellfire, etc. You might reason that while sitting in the audience merely qualifies you as a spectator, a non-member, partaking is a public statement of support for that churches beliefs. Or perhaps you would not see it that way. But how would others see it? If you do not partake, would they see it as not approving of their teachings or would they take that as an indication you are not a Christian, one who confesses Christ?
                  And so we come to the Memorial as commemorated by JWs. Complications grow, because in the religion in which I was raised, whether you partake or not, you send a message, you are making a public statement. If I partake, I am anointed. If I abstain, I am "other sheep". However, further complications ensue due to the perception that a long-standing witness who abruptly begins partaking is starting to "go off the rails".
                  Some would suggest that it doesn't matter what anybody thinks, because the important thing is to partake, thereby confessing Jesus. But remember, we can partake on the real memorial date, so why even go to the Kingdom hall? For some there is no reason to go, while others feel it is imperative they attend.
                  Please be aware that I am not making even a suggestion that one course of action is right and another wrong. It is, as I see it, very much a matter of conscience. The only non-conscience matter is that of partaking itself, somewhere, alone or in a group. Otherwise, we disobey our Lord.
                  I have my personal view on the matter of whether to attend a Kingdom hall commemoration and whether to partake if I do, but I will not share it so as not to influence the conscience of others. We will be adding an article on this prior to memorial to go over all the factors and explain what Bible principles apply, but again, the application of those principles will vary depending on all the factors affecting each one
                  individually. There does not appear to be any room for making a one-size-fits-all rule.
                  I know for some this will not be satisfying to read, because we come from a mother-like organization that makes all our decisions for us, but we have left that and moved on to something greater. This new reality means we have to exercise our conscience constantly.
                  In the movie, The American President, the main character played by Michael Douglas says that "America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad." There is an underlying truth to that quote if we apply it to a far more important form of citizenship, that of the Kingdom of God. Our citizenship is very advanced and we do have to want it because we must fight for it. We must make our own conscience-based decisions, but also respect those of others even if they disagree with ours. This we must do without passing judgment. (1Co 10:29)
                  It's not easy, I know.

                  • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-07 10:36:57

                    Amen brother.
                    Once we’ve reached the point of no return (confessing Christ) it is the partaking that matters. It doesn’t matter where we celebrate, our Heavenly Father and Christ know. It doesn’t have to be in the presence of a large group. It can be at home, after a normal meal.
                    I concur that if we believe the JW arrangement is flawed, then attending and quietly observing (not partaking) is a conscientious option.
                    To further Meliti’s point, to begin partaking at the KH after having been content your entire life to be a member of “other sheep” throws up a big red flag, especially for one who has recently relinquished privileges, become slack in meeting attendance, commenting, the field ministry, etc.
                    None will view your partaking as valid. You will be considered a fake.
                    Some in the congregation will view you as egotistical, others that your mentally disturbed. In any case, it will not have an effect on anyone other than bringing suspicion on yourself, especially from the elders and CO.
                    They view that if you were “real”, it would be evidenced by the depth in your commenting, the time devoted to the ministry, bible study activity, and overall demeanor in support of the GB and organization. These are all measurements of “spirituality”.
                    Due to indoctrination, if they see "spirituality" is lacking, you’re not real and may be a threat.
                    Sopater

                    • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 22:25:46

                      Hi Sopater,
                      Absolutely spot on! If you aren't seen as going through all the motions you will be seen as a fake. I couldn't agree more. With JW's there are no half measures. You must be SEEN doing in order to be believed and accepted. What a sad departure from true Christianity.

                      • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-08 07:10:22

                        ANTONNINVS,
                        According to the January 2016 Watchtower study article "The Spirit Bears Witness With Our Spirit." you can be excelling in every area of worship, zeal, deep study, effectiveness in ministry, etc. and still be unworthy of being called. This article will be considered the weekend before the memorial, so it will be fresh in the minds of all active attending.
                        Given paragraph 15 (below), I can only imagine the gasps of onlookers as they watch a brother or sister who has been just fine being classified as "other sheep" for decades, partake for the first time. They will surely think: "What arrogance, how self-righteous. Who do they think they are? I have a higher spirituality than they do."
                        Now imagine a brother or sister who misses meetings, is low hour or inactive in the ministry, rarely comments,.has no bible students, arrives during the song and leaves soon after the closing prayer, doesn't socialize in the congregation......
                        Imagine how the congregation views that person partaking for the first time. My JW view would be that they are mentally unstable, likely apostate and should be closely monitored, perhaps a local needs warning talk topic.
                        Paragraph 15 states:
                        15 Perhaps you are wondering if you have received this wonderful invitation. If you think that you might have, ponder some important questions. Do you feel that you have more than average zeal in the ministry? Are you a keen student of God’s Word who loves to delve into “the deep things of God”? (1 Cor. 2:10) Have you seen Jehovah’s special blessing on your ministry? Do you have a burning desire to do Jehovah’s will? Do you have a deep inner feeling of responsibility to help others spiritually? Have you seen proof that Jehovah has personally intervened in your life? If you answer these questions with a resounding yes, does this mean that you now have the heavenly calling? No, it does not. Why not? Because these are not unique feelings experienced only by those who have the heavenly calling. Jehovah’s spirit works with equal force in those who have the hope of living forever on earth. In fact, if you are wondering whether you have received the heavenly calling, that would in itself indicate that you have not received it. Those called by Jehovah do not wonder whether they have been invited or not! They know!oin the discussion
                        Sopater

                        • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 07:43:21

                          Hi Sopater,
                          You are right. I must confess I haven't read that article as yet. I will be sure to give it very close examination. I don't even know how to begin to describe an article such as the one you quote.
                          The criteria outlined in the article is designed for one thing and one thing only. To create doubt in the mind of any contemplating taking the emblems for the first time. Anyone who takes the emblems after considering the points raised in the WT is going to feel very uncomfortable to say the least. All eyes literally and metaphorically will be on him or her for a long time to come. The Society is really trying hard to cover all its bases. It smacks of desperation to me. When you need to resort to such tactics it tends to suggest you are losing the battle, that you are desperate to stem the tide. It really amounts to instiling fear in any individual contemplating taking the emblems. Not only does one have to think twice as it were but a hundredfold before taking the step. The only comforting thought in all this is that eventually all error falls flat and fails. God is not one to be mocked. We can take comfort in that. For now we may have to bide our time and take solace from that certainty.
                          All the best

                        • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-08 07:45:44

                          I might add, the above paragraph gives the congregation license to judge openly, to question motive, even limit association with anyone so bold as to begin partaking.
                          The message of this paragraph is the GB wants to use congregation "peer pressure" as a strategy to discourage new partakers. They are embarrassed by the number continuing to grow (now 15,000).
                          The underlying message from the GB is, if you partake...... YOU WILL PAY!!!
                          How contrary this is to true Christianity. Any group that would denigrate one who sincerely confesses Christ in their heart.... is a group that follows an apostate teaching of man, not the example set by Christ and the first century Christians.
                          Sopater

                          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 07:57:28

                            Hi Sopater,
                            You are right it is becoming an embarrassment for the GB. Any teaching that is wrong and can't be supported by scripture will eventually cause embarrassment. I think the best course of action is the old saying, give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. The GB has done so much damage to its profile of late that I don't think they need any help. They seem to repeat the same errors over and over again. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
                            Ultimately honest hearted Christians will see the inconsistencies.

                            • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-08 10:00:15

                              ANTONIVS,
                              Brother, I just want to commend you for having the courage to join us here, and I very much appreciate your balanced and heartfelt thoughts.
                              I read every article and every comment on BP (and DTT) for 3 months before prayerfully mustering the courage to join in and contribute. I imagine there are many "lurkers" among us who are contemplating if (or when) they will join. It is a very big step.
                              In my own experience, growing up JW was like being born on Gilligan's Island. You grow up having never seen the mainland, all you've seen is water. My entire world view was shaped around life on the island. What I experienced there was my reality and "truth." I knew nothing else. I had no basis to believe anything else.
                              The internet was the "boat" that allowed me to leave the island and travel to the mainland. When I arrived at the mainland and modern civilization, I was completely blown away with how seriously flawed my world view had been. In fact, everyday I continue to appreciate just how flawed my world view had been on the island.
                              There are no words to describe the emotional release I felt when first posting at BP. I was tearful. I had never posted on any forum or blog. I feared that to do so would be crossing the line. With each post I made, I became less afraid of expressing my deepest feelings. I could be completely honest and not fear being judged and shunned by the group.
                              So, I thank you and everyone that is part of our lovely "virtual" congregation. It takes courage and strength of character for us to be here. Having this fellowship calms our hearts with the assurance that we need not fear being alone. Whether we are fully awakened, half-way, or just beginning the journey, we respect each other and are patient, realizing we are all different and grow at our own individual pace. (Eph 4:2)
                              Special thanks to Meleti and Apollos (and the other mature brothers behind the scenes) for giving of themselves and their resources to make the BP congregation a reality.
                              Phileo to all,
                              Sopater

                              • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-08 11:51:04

                                Brother Sopater, you put in words how I feel about you all. Feelings like I have landed in a twilight zone in the last few months, vanished and feeling sane again through all of you hardworking brothers and loving sisters ease the pain. There are only so few hours in a day to read, understand make it my own: the real thruth of the Bible and not the JW version. A struggle everyday, but we are not alone, we have the mightiest Person and his Son on our side ? In fact we are very fortunate and blessed. Love to you all.

                              • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 15:45:12

                                Hi Sopater,
                                Reading your experience was like reading my own. I could not have put it any better, my life has mirrored every detail you yourself experienced. My word there must be a lot of us out there! Thank you for your warm words of encouragement. Much appreciated.

                          • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-08 12:50:43

                            How about if one visited another congregation and partook there, where one isn't known? It will send the numbers up and one can avoid some of the pitfalls you describe?

                            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-08 13:15:57

                              Whatever works for you. I can see merit in this course, as I did this myself last year. I felt that partaking where I was would have done more harm than good, but another congregation where I was known and respected for years would produce a more positive result.

                              • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 16:26:48

                                Hi Meleti,
                                It is certainly more meaningful if you partake among people who know and respect you. I sincerely hope it had the desired outcome. All the best to you for this year.

                            • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-08 15:13:29

                              OoA,
                              I do know of some who have done that. But are they counted? I doubt it.
                              If someone completely unknown came to the memorial, partook, and didn't hang around to identify themselves (i.e. where they are from and congregation etc) and the specific reason they are not attending their local congregation, I doubt the elders would count them.
                              We are instructed to not count worldly persons, bible studies and disfellowshipped. How could could they confirm you're not one of these?
                              To be counted, the elders would need to feel comfortable why you attended in their congregation. They would need to be comfortable that you're real, and that would come from hanging around afterward, meeting people, telling them how long you've been in the truth, etc.
                              It's fine to do it for yourself, but don't be doing it to increase the number.
                              Sopater

                              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-08 16:01:26

                                Good point. I forgot about that. Now here's another pie-in-the-sky idea. What if every one of us didn't go to the Memorial at all, but only held our own private commemoration? Longtime faithful sisters and brothers declining the most important meeting of the year!? What a message that would send. But alas, only a few would read the message correctly. Still, Jehovah isn't calling everyone, but only a few.

                                • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 20:32:58

                                  *A MESSAGE ADDRESSED TO ALL *
                                  I sincerely believe there's only one way to achieve anything worthwhile. The right way, the Scriptural way. I'm sure we all feel the same way. So I could be guilty for stating the obvious.
                                  Specifically with regard to our approach to the memorial and partaking of the emblems etc, I do believe any attempt on our part to outthink, outsmart, and circumvent difficulties that are encountered as a result of trying to do the right thing ultimately may make us no better than those who would deny us our Christian freedom. Maybe even worse since we claim to know better than they, we claim to be enlightened. The average JW can still lay claim to ignorance because in most cases they simply don't know any better.
                                  Our thoughts and actions should be elevated, noble, inspite of the fact our opposers may not fight fairly that doesn't lessen our personal obligation to do so.
                                  Our position or belief may be correct. But we can still find ourselves in the wrong simply because we go about things the wrong way. Put simply it's not enough to be in the right, we need to act right.
                                  In this world of imperfect humans in which we live sometimes it's better to suffer short to pain for long term gain. We can't lose sight of the end game. We must be prepared to undergo some difficulties. Jesus foretold that all true Christians would. It is unavoidable.
                                  I believe Meleti's comment was tongue in cheek and wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It reflects the frustration we all feel at times.
                                  Maybe I'm wrong. Sometimes we can over think things, I know I do. And maybe that is an indicator that I am not relying fully on The Lord. Ultimately every thing is in his hands what or who should we fear!?

                                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-08 22:13:49

                                    It was tongue in cheek. I really wouldn't support an organized (there's that word again) effort. Each must apply his or her own conscience.

                                    • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 22:54:48

                                      Hi Meleti,
                                      Thanks for the confirmation. I appreciate it.

                                    • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-08 22:56:30

                                      my comments too were tounge in cheek about all partakers suddenly turning up but my real point is one could view those in the congregation as a ministry field to people who have been fenced off by their leaders i pray that jehovah opens a way

                                      • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 23:01:14

                                        Hi Jabez,
                                        Yes of course. We have a whole untapped, untouched ministry, the comgregation of JW's. It may yet prove to be the toughest territory we have ever encountered.

                                      • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-09 00:40:48

                                        I was merely making an observation with my legal mind. I have no intention of going back to the kingdom hall and personally feel that partaking of Jesus flesh and blood is a deeply personal thing, not to be done in front of wolves in sheep's clothing.

                                        • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 02:22:37

                                          Just a general observation. This is not a particular response to any comment that has been made formerly.
                                          I believe constant self examination is the key rather than focusing on what others may or may not do. Personal reassessment, fine tuning our conscience, motives and attitude.
                                          Trying to determine the propriety of one course of action as opposed to another can be a mine field. It can be hard enough to determine these things for ourselves, and we are aware of our own circumstances and limitations. We can never know all the circumstances and limitations that move others to make certain choices. Hence, why trying to second guess why someone makes a particular choice is fraut with pitfalls.
                                          One good rule of thumb. To make right choices often we need to divorce ourselves of emotion. Decisions that are driven by emotion are rarely good decisions. Facts, proof, logic, a sound knowledge of the subject along with understanding and wisdom employed in the light of Sctipture these are the fundamentals to making good decisions.
                                          Don't get me wrong emotion has its place. Some decisions if they were completely devoid of emotion would make for very poor choices indeed. Balance, always trying to put on the mind of Christ as it were that's the key.
                                          I don't mean to sound preachy. And please forgive me if I am. Tell me to be quite and I will. But I feel very strongly about some things, as we all do. When I contemplate, how things could and should be, how much good and harmony can be achieved...well I guess it chokes me up.
                                          Please be assured of my warm Christian regards, I sincerely pray that all may find what they are looking for.

                            • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 16:18:29

                              Hi out of Africa,
                              I would say there are a number of points to consider before doing this. Some may feel if you don't have the kind of faith, conviction and strength to do it the accepted way and follow protocol (at your local KH) then who are we trying to kid? Does one refraine from partaking at his or her local congregation out of fear? Importantly, is one being true to themselves? How would our Lord view it? Is it being completely honest with ourselves and others? If you are convinced that what you're doing is right what would you have to fear from humans? Could partaking in another congregation perhaps betray that one is not as sure or commited as he or she first thought? Is it because doubts may still linger? Most importantly perhaps, what is one's motive for partaking of the emblems in a congregation other than the one they belong to?
                              These are questions that each and everyone should answer for themselves. And nobody can pass judgement on why a person chooses to do something one way rather than another. But whatever decision one makes one thing is for sure, it should be done with right motive, not simply to make a point or to avoid the fallout. In other words without a hidden agenda, honestly, openly, uncompromisingly, free of self deception.
                              Remember, every decision we make, every action we take has unavoidable and sometimes negative consequences we did not envisage or could not foresee. Even a well intentioned action can sometimes backfire in ways we could never forsee. Maybe not immediately but a long time after.

                  • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 16:23:40

                    Greetings Meleti,
                    Thank you for your insightful comments. You are right of course when you imply that the reaction among witnesses when they see one of their number begin taking the emblems for the first time is one of shock - horror. But at the end of the day there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. You can't be reprimanded, or disfellowshipped. If you hold a position such as an elder or MS etc you can't be deleted. The price one will undoubted pay is that the vast majority of those you call friends will think you are crazy or the more sinister among them will conclude you have apostate leanings. Even so, technically you are still untouchable since your motives for taking the emblems are beyond the scrutiny of any human. The probable outcome: For a time many will continue to think of you in a poor light and slowly over the years from one memorial to the next it will become yesterday's news. But make no mistake it won't blow over quickly.
                    There will be a price to pay on a personal level. While that should not be the determining factor, (how people react or treat you) when deciding to do something you think is right, it is none the less a reality. As a JW the fastest way to get people talking about you behind your back is to begin taking the emblems publicly at the KH. You will have to face years of funny looks, backhanded comments and in more extreme cases outright hostility from those who take a dim view of new partakers. As I mentioned previously, fear of the way your actions will be perceived is not the determining factor. If you believe something to be right you do it regardless of the reaction. That is the example Christ set for all.
                    But know this, once you take the step there is no turning back. In the eyes of onlookers It will define you from that moment on. It takes a strong conviction, it will be a real test of character. At first, you may feel you can take anything for the Lord's sake, that people's opinions don't matter. But years of side way looks and sniggering behind your back can potentially wear down even the most commited person. If you allow yourself to become disheartened you will soon shy away from meetings and that will only convince your critics that they were right about you.
                    My advice therefore, think carefully and prayerfully before you take the step. You may be ready to handle the fallout, but what about your family? Invariably they will get caught up in the crossfire and to some extent pay for your descision. Are they as ready as you are to back you all the way? Or will years of being treated differently begin to take its toll on them one by one? Will they begin to resent you for their lose of friends etc? - And yes, it goes without saying, that we should care more about what God thinks than what people think, that is a given.
                    Please believe me when I say I'm not trying to be negative or dramatic. Far from it. But I've been around JW's all
                    my life. In general the way they think and react to any given situation is predictable. It's shaped by how they have been taught to think by the Society. While my comments may seem to imply one should not partake of the emblems at KH that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is be circumspect. Think carefully of the ramifications of your actions, how they will effect you, your spouse, your children etc. for a long time to come.
                    I hope my comments are taken in the spirit they are offered. That is to help anyone considering taking the emblems at the KH from getting caught up in the emotion of the issue without fully realising what they will be taking on long term.
                    I wish you all the best whatever you decide.

                    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-07 18:39:46

                      Well put, ANTONINVS

                      • Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-07 19:23:23

                        It is well put and the comment is correct , but in reality its really showing the religion and its adherants up for what they are .How on earth can a christian religion have such a massive problem with partaking of the bread and wine . I was told i would be stumbling people if i partook . I said what by obeying christs express command . I just dont buy it .If any have a problem with it they need to get real and start learning what christianity is really about .! sorry but i think thats true .

                        • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-07 20:07:35

                          how would they react if this year all those who partake in private sudenly turned up and partook at the k h world wide it would bring the whole understanding of the memorial as taught by the GB into the light

                          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 20:25:37

                            Hi Jabez
                            True, but not realistic. I don't believe It will ever happen in large enough numbers to make any difference. I could be wrong of course. But I think it would require a catalyst to spur such an enmasse action. I don't see where that catalyst might come from. It could happen one day but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

                          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 21:20:33

                            Hi Jabez,
                            You may recall that for many years the number of so call anointed hovered around 8000 to 8500. Then almost inexplicably it jumped to around 14000 plus. It didn't significantly change anything. The Society published a question from readers to explain it away and it was back to business as usual for the average Joe. That is why I say it will take something significant to bring about change, not what may amount to little more than registering a protest vote by publishers that may be letting their emotions get the better of them by making a public showing of taking the emblems.
                            Please don't think I'm being judgemental. That is not my intention. I may be playing Devil's advocate if only to give those considering partaking of the emblems publicly a moment to pause and weigh up the supposed gains against the very real loses. If we feel strongly about something there is a real danger that we may act on emotion rather than thoughtful consideration. As I mentioned earlier there is no walking away from such a public action. The side effects of which will follow one for years. If one is prepared for that, then by all means go ahead with my blessing and more importantly Jehovah's.
                            All the best.

                            • Reply by jabez on 2016-01-07 21:56:30

                              Hi ANTONIN VS thank you for your response you have given me food for thought but what i like the best of all from you and others here too is your genuine concern i just want to give my best to jesus and my father while thinking of the highest good for my brothers in the true sense of Agape Love

                              • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 21:59:49

                                Hi Jabez
                                No one can ask for more than that, that one should do all he can for others, most commendable. I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.

                        • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 20:30:46

                          Hi Father Jack
                          That brings me back to my original point. If the way the commemoration is celebrated is fundamentally flawed why would anyone feel compelled to partake in it? What would it achieve?

                          • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-07 23:09:44

                            Dear Brothers This thread points out the basic choice we all have in the bigger picture. If we live by conscience and try to follow Jehovah wholesouled, it will inevitably lead to conflict with the organization.

                            • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 00:39:03

                              Hi out of Africa,
                              Very true. We will all be faced with having to make hard decisions sooner or later. It's just a matter of time.

                            • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 01:37:51

                              *HERE is something you may all wish to consider. This line of reasoning was not thought of by me. I read it, therefore the words that follow are not mine.
                              "Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is a little flock of 144,000 who get to go to heaven and a great crowd of others who are relegated to Earth. What does Revelation really reveal?
                              First, the 144,000 and the great multitude are not two different peoples but two different ways of describing the same purified bride... Literally the 144,000 and the great multitude are comparable to the lion and the lamb. Just as John is told about a lion and turns to see a lamb Rev. 5:5,6 so he is told about the 144,000 and turns to see a great multitude Rev. 7. Thus, the 144,000 is to the great multitude what the lion is to the lamb, namely, the same entity seen from two different vantage points. From one vantage point the beautified bride is numbered, from another, she is innumerable - a great multitude that no one can count. "
                              I would like to open this up for comment.

                              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-08 08:21:32

                                This indicates that Jehovah knows the number. That doesn't mean it is 144,000 which is obviously a symbolic number representing a balanced, divinely appointed administration for rule.
                                “. . .And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.” (Re 6:11)
                                My attention is also drawn to the phrase concerning the great crowd, "which no man is able to number." Therefore, the number is unknowable to us as humans, but as Rev. 6:11 shows, God knows the number.
                                I like your finding. It does make sense.

                                • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 16:38:16

                                  Hi Meleti,
                                  Thank you for your comments, much appreciated as always. I too thought the quotation above made sense. I had never considered that point of view previously. It had never occurred to me.

                              • Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-08 11:33:43

                                Im not trying to put the spanner in the works here ,and i know when we compare scripture from other parts of the bible we could argue against this , but just reading revelation 7 through the simplist explanation would be that the 144000 stand for the natural house of israel and the great crowd stand for those saved from all other nations .

                                • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-08 16:44:56

                                  Hi father jack,
                                  I haven't discounted that possibility. There are a number of applications that all seem to make sense. I am still at the stage of considering these. This is one area of study that is extremely complex. Even among the so called great minds and commentators the are wide ranging views., from the ridiculous to the sublime. This is an ongoing area of investigation for me.

                                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-08 17:18:43

                                    At some point, after all the other issues which are knowable and definable at this time are written, I'd like to get into revelation. However, I have to acknowledge that most of it will on be known when it occurs. I think with things like the 144,000/great crowd we can arrive at a consensus of what is most likely, what fits the facts best, but there will always be doubt because it wasn't meant to be accurately understood beforehand. We are like the first century Jews who after centuries of waiting were still uncertain about who the Messiah would come and what he would be like and what he would actually do.
                                    This all just makes the journey more exciting.

                          • Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-09 08:19:45

                            Yes antoninvs i do agree another point i ponder over as well is the meaning of 1 corinthians 5 where it says we should not eat with such a man . In the context it mentioned about christ being the passover lamb . It seems obvious to me that paul had to be including the communion of bread and wine in that verse . Knowing what i know about the religion would make partaking as one of JW s difficult for me personally . I know that others feel different here on this site and thats fine , but as for me i would prefer not to turn up at all than have to go through what i consider to be an insult to jesus . Sorry if i seem a bit judgemental . I dont really want to be thats my opinion but each one must make his own mind up romans 14

                            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-09 08:50:43

                              It is an opinion that we respect, FJ.

                            • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 15:10:27

                              Hi father jack
                              ILike you I'm not convinced that partaking the emblems at the KH serves any meaningful purpose. However, as you correctly point out it is a personal decision. So perhaps this line of reasoning has now been taken as far as it reasonably dhould be.
                              As for your comments regarding 1 Cor 5, I will examine this passage and get back to you. I must confess I haven't given those verses a lot of thought previously.

Comment by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-04 13:25:54

What an awesome article. It simply shows how one can remain in, yet confess Christ with no grounds to disfellowship. No one can argue with basic Bible truth! Having said that, for many of us, remaining in the organization simply to avoid disfellowshipping, would still raise flags. How so? When someone like myself, who gave 110% to the organization, and couldn't talk about anything else, suddenly or even gradually slows down, the big question elders ask is why. The attention by elders and friends would be relentless. Family would wonder why I was still even associating with the organization.
We know how the system works. Elders will come to assume such a person has lost faith in the organization. Once that happens, gossip spreads and many will avoid or not treat you the same. Just saying, that for the former hard core witness who was an elder, gave talks at assemblies, worked in foreign language, remaining in is asking for persecution. For the "normal" witness, I guess it may work.

• Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-04 15:10:31

  VG,
  You are spot on. A suggestion on gracefully tip toeing out of dodge is to blame it on changed circumstances (ideally employment or business related). If possible, take on a new job or that your business is going to require that you travel for a time.
  I have a couple close elder friends that have used this approach and it has worked out well for them. Your job is then blamed for why your meeting attendance is slack, and why service hours have dwindled.
  One will be viewed as a weak, materialistic deadbeat, but I view this far better than the alternative. Another tip, in the resignation letter they stated that if personal circumstances changed, they might be able to serve again (of course they never change). This settles things in the CO's mind. When an elder resigns, big red flags go up. He will dismiss it if its work related.
  Sopater

Comment by Father jack on 2016-01-04 14:22:37

Yes . Thanks for that meleti . As you know i am one who does not associate with the congregation anymore . I had my reasons ,and i felt it was the best course for my sanity . However i feel that may not be the best course for everyone . Its certainly not good if we are going to be isolated especially from our family and friends and other true christians . I studied 2 john last week and noted that john said that he rejoiced that some of the chosen ladies sons were walking in he truth . Notice only SOME of them even in the first century. I feel that the situation may be the same today not only among Jehovahs witnesses but among christian fellowships in general . My point is this how are we suppossed to love and associate with our brothers and sisters if we havent got any . Would it not be a shame to have to avoid those in the congregation who do bare the marks of christs love and compassion because of others however powerful they may be . We should always remember in a large house there are many vessels . 2 tim 2 . However as you pointed out and i have said before on this site .there will come a time when we have to leave and its at the point when rev 18 v4 suggests its if we are in danger of becoming a sharer in her sins . Thanks for the article and the encouragement for many disheartened brothers and sisters who do not know which way to turn

• Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-05 03:12:46

  There are other ways to find like minded ones to associate with. The Find Friends function on this site can help. I used the Scattered Brethren Network and we have found a family reasonably close to us who are very eager for spiritual association. (http://www.scatteredbrethren.org/) This family does not have a witness background and have come to a very similar understanding as us by their own research. They too did not have anyone to associate with as they don’t fit in with organized religion. It is important to associate: Prov 18:1, Prov 27:11, even if only 2 or 3 Mat 18:20

  • Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-06 19:39:23

    Out of Africa: Have you attended any scattered breathren meetings?
    I have. Maybe in general chat you can tell your experience or impressions. I would like to hear them!

  • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-07 00:44:52

    Hi Vincent
    We are a bit isolated in Africa, so there are no Scattered Brethren meetings in our country. They did however put us in touch with an older couple near us. The man had a religious background but had left his church a while ago as it was just formalistic. His wife was not religious at all. She came into contact with bible teachings over the internet and they started to do their own bible study.
    What I find very interesting is that without any influence from the Witnesses: 1.They have come to nearly the same conclusions as us, such as paradise earth, kingdom rule, Jesus is God's son etc. There are a few difference though which we will discuss, but we are also happy to disagree. 2. Their grown daughter is very involved in Satanism and based on scripture, they have seen the need to limit contact with her. 3. They are actively involved in preaching and go to a religious group with which they do not completely agree to preach to them. 4. They follow the same moral standard as we do in the bible such as no involvement in the military 5. They are overjoyed at meeting our family with which they can enjoy spiritual fellowship as they are keeping separate from false religion and are very isolated as a result.
    We had a 5 hour spiritual discussion with them, which is much more than we normally would ever have with Witnesses.
    This proves to me that one does not need to be associated with any organization to find the truth about Jehovah and His son.
    There are online Unitarian meetings but at present we don’t want to be involved with any organised religious service. I also don’t agree with the idea that Jesus had no pre-human existence, which seems to be their thing. What was your impression of the Scattered Brethren?

    • Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-07 17:08:37

      Out of Africa: Personally, I agree with all of the core doctrines. If you go to General Chat, you will find a post by Hisclarkness called "I went to Church today." There you will find my comments. I think if say, a couple or family came from the group to my house, it would be more encouraging and productive. But when you are in a group of say 20-30 people it is hard to simply discuss and contemplate what others have to say. Just my thoughts.

      • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-07 23:06:14

        Thanks I will look. Could you please give me the link? I can't find it on their main site.

        • Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-07 23:34:03

          Here's the link: http://www.discussthetruth.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1317#p13686
          Please add to that post. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Comment by Willy on 2016-01-04 14:36:56

Meleti, thank you for answering a lot of issues and questionsI have! But how to act, when someone shows interest and want to study THE Bible with you, you don't want them to teach falsehoods, and do you bring such a person to the congregation, they are likely to find out that you don' t teach(the falsehoods).

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-04 15:59:44

  A valid point, Willy. One option is to study with the person and use only the Bible. Not report the study and begin associating with the person but outside of the sphere of the Organization. These are, however, all stop gap measures. There is simply no way to carry this all off for an extended period of time without encountering situations that will force you to take a stand. The organization routine is so rigid that any deviation from the norm catches the attention of the elders. If one has been a high profile Witness, the scrutiny is heighten. I find it near impossible to go out in service. So I look for other avenues to preach. Going out with the group exposes me to too many compromising situations. Some years back, I was at the door with an elder and the household raised the objection about our stand on blood. The elder, who was taking the call felt unqualified to answer and said, "I'll let my friend explain that to you." Fortunately, the man kept talking and the conversation moved on.
  Even if you stop attending meetings altogether, if they find you are talking with active members of the congregation, they will seek you out. In such cases, you will bear witness that is said on the JW.org web site about shunning is a lie, or as the PR people put it, spin.

• Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-04 20:49:12

  Willy,
  A word of caution:
  Just remember that not everyone wil share your personal difficulties, and that everyone has a right to a clear, comprehensive and sympathetic presentation of Jehovah’s witnesses teaching. For any minister to offer an expurgated version of Jehovah’s witnesses teachings because of personal difficulties is to let your own judgment replace that of those you are teaching.
  The Bible is just as adamant against vigilante Christians as it is about false teachers. Neither Jesus nor the apostles opposition to the authorities of their time serves as precedent, since they themselves were the new authority in Israel, as God’s son and his commisioned apostles.
  The problem is when you treat your interpretation of Scripture as scripture itself.
  And last
  Regards,

  • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-05 06:00:25

    Thank you, and I Will teach and learn Real Biblical thruth, as my understanding is growing everything day. Agape

Comment by miken on 2016-01-04 14:53:07

Christians show love for Jesus Christ by obeying his commandments, John 14:15.
Most of these topics relate to Jesus Christ’s commandments
to all, not a limited number (144,000), of those wishing to become his disciples.
• Jesus is The Way. Jesus Christ said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me”. John 14:6 NWT. Acts 4:12.
• Coming to Jesus . Jesus Christ asks people to “come” to him. What does this involve?
Matthew 10:28; John 6:37. Coming (Greek Erchomai) means to commit oneself to
the instruction of Jesus and enter into fellowship with him (1 Cor1:9; 1 John 1:1-3)
through surrendering our life to him, for him (John 13:37,38) and loving him (Eph
6:24).
• Believing in Jesus. This entails more than believing facts about Jesus and what he
practiced and taught. The Greek word for believe, Pisteuo, means “in faith give one’s self up
to Jesus, to commit one’s self trustfully to the name” (Jesus) 1 John 3:23, “to trust in
Christ”, 2 Tim1:12, John 14:1. When asked what works God requires, Jesus answered
that “the work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” John 6:29 NIV.
Christians have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ and received a new birth, John
3:3-7. Pisteuo can also mean believe what is said or something about someone. An
example of both meanings is recorded at John 11:25-27.

• Knowing Jesus. Christians come to “know” (Greek Ginosko) Christ intimately through
having a personal relationship with him, John 10:14, John 17:3. Christians therefore
both pray to and worship Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 12:7-10, John 14:14, Rev 5:13, 14.
• Eternal Life. Christian believers have eternal life, they have crossed over from death
to life, John 5:24, 3:36, 5:39-40, 6:47, 54, 10:28, Rom 6:23, Acts 13:48, 1 John:2:25,
5:11, 13. They have their names written in the book of life, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5. Gaining
eternal life for the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses involves surviving the great
tribulation, the battle of Armageddon, living on a restored earth for 1000 years under
Christ’s reign and surviving Satan’s attack at the end of the 1000 years, Rev 20:2-3.
• Being Born Again. All Christians (not just 144,000) must be “born again” John 3:3-7.
Without being “born again” of water and Spirit no one can either see or enter the
Kingdom of God. Where in the Bible is a specific scripture
indicating that only 144,000 people can be born again?
• God’s Children. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses have been told they are
not Children or Sons of God but friends like Abraham. James 2:23. However "born again" Christians are God's
children.
“For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit
of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father! The spirit itself bears
witness with our spirit that we are God’s children”. Romans 8:15, 16 NWT. John1:12.

• Jesus Our Mediator. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses have been told they
do not have Jesus Christ as their mediator He is the mediator only for the 144,000
whose hope is of being resurrected to heaven. This belief denies 1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

• Remembering Jesus. All Christians (not just those remaining of the 144,000 class)
must remember Jesus sacrifice by partaking in his memorial meal as he instructed.
(John 6:51-58; Matt 26:26-28; Luke 22:19, 20; 1 Cor 11:24-26). They become part of
the new covenant for forgiveness of sins. Those not doing so will not have everlasting
life and will not be resurrected on the last day.

• Repentance and Baptism. Christians should repent of their sins, be baptized in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (not in association with
Jehovah’s Witnesses organization) and receive the Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19; Acts 2: 37-
39; 10:47, 48.

• Witnessing about Jesus. Jesus Christ commanded Christians to be witnesses of him.
Acts 1:8; Galatians 1:7; John 15:26, 27; Luke 24:46-48. After Jesus ascension the
emphasis changed from preaching about the Kingdom of God to preaching the
gospel about the King of the Kingdom, Jesus Christ. From Acts to Revelation only five
scriptures record preaching about the Kingdom of God, in three instances Jesus
Christ is linked with this preaching. Acts 8:12, 19:8, 20:25, 28:23, 31.

Comment by Susan on 2016-01-04 16:20:43

Yes, I agree it is a matter of personal timing and intention, as each one is growing in relationship with God and seeking His will on these decisions. Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-04 19:54:20

Hi Anon,
You are speaking in generalities with the implication that these apply specifically to what I write. Please, give us, the readers of this forum, some specifics, so that we can see if your counsel is truly relevant to what I have written.
Meleti

Comment by Justin Michesloff on 2016-01-04 22:00:07

I find it truly sad that so much time is devoted to the politics of the supposedly spirit led Organization. Sadly, I too have spent an inordinate amount of both time and effort on the same topic, which unfortunately, became the focus of my attention for a number of years. This sapped my joy and weakened my faith, which has taken years to rebuild.
Meleti, thank you for this article, which hopefully will help others to know how to conscientiously co-exist without being unnecessarily being shunned.
Friends, listen and learn. Your Christian joy depends on it.

Comment by Anonymous on 2016-01-04 23:14:19

"However, too much emphasis on Jesus over Jehovah will get you noticed".
In Babylon are two beasts; one carries the mark of its image, projected on any who remain under its rule. Rev 13:14-18 The only way to remove this mark is through disfellowshipping, which is viewed as a spiritual "death" - a sin against the Holy Spirit in the eyes of the image - the ORGANIZATION. John 16:2
This really is the further step when following in the path of Christ.
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. Heb 13:13,14
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. Matt 24:9
“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Matt 6:24
I do not sit with the deceitful, nor do I associate with hypocrites. Ps 26:4
In order to completely come out of Babylon, one must remove the "mark", not by remaining unnoticed, by by speaking out. Rev 20:4
Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matt 10:17-22
In support of our Master Christ, do we save face, or do we turn the other cheek? Matt 5:39
http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/02/there-are-those-who-wonder-if-my_7388.html

Comment by AR on 2016-01-04 23:18:31

Thanks Meleti, it's timely information, I myself already left "Babylon the great" a few decades ago, yes as was explained to me in the late 1980's & scriptually, I was assured, I would be blessed... Ahh, yes it cost me dearly, friends family financially,etc. that's ok, I did it for the Lord, because this is the "truth" .In the Last 8 months as I started to awaken if I can use that term spiritually, I was thinking to myself, here I go again.
It wasn't until I was reported for, presenting to a close friend different alternative's to some of our beloved teaching's. I'm on the 'watch list now' Yes, you need to be cautious as a serpent, so after many prayers, meditation, research, emailing yourself, which you have been a great help, i came to the same conclusion you've outlined above, . However, you have articulated what's been on my mind on Media print. A scripture leaped out at me as I read your article above its 2 tim 2:24 24And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful...RNWT: A slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,.
Interesting Nobles commentary on this verse:-And the servant of the Lord - Referring here primarily to the Christian minister, but applicable to all Christians; for all profess to be the servants of the Lord.
Must not strive - He may calmly inquire after truth; he may discuss points of morals, or theology, if he will do it with a proper spirit; he may "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints" Jde 1:3; but he may not do that which is here mentioned as strife. The Greek word - μάχεσθαι machesthai - commonly denotes, "to fight, to make war, to contend." In John 6:52; Acts 7:26; 2 Timothy 2:24;, it is rendered "strove," and "strive;" in James 4:2, "fight." It is not elsewhere used in the New Testament. The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved; compare the notes at Romans 12:18.
But be gentle unto all men; - see the notes at 1 Thessalonians 2:7. The word rendered "gentle," does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. It means that the Christian minister is to be meek and mild toward all, not disputatious and quarrelsome.
Apt to teach; - see the notes at 1 Timothy 3:2.
Patient - Margin, "forbearing." The Greek word here used does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. It means, patient under evils and injuries. Robinson, Lexicon. Compare the Ephesians 4:2 note; Colossians 3:13

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-04 23:36:05

  A most thoughtful comment, AR. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Comment by Dawn Ann on 2016-01-04 23:38:35

Meleti, thank you for a great article!!!! This article is an answer to my prayers on what to do in my personal situation. I became quite confused as part of me wants to leave the organization, but another part of me wants to remain for my husband's sake. I truly appreciated your comments in regards to the Elders request for a meeting and some examples of how to respond. I may need to use this should I ever become on their radar. I'm in a really good position as I have a number of health issues that prevent me from attending meetings and field service on a regular basis so they really don't bother with me much. I've had quite a few shepherding calls and CO visits. They were very understanding of my health issues, however their focus was on giving me some ideas of how I can still count time for field service by letter writing, phone calls etc. I nodded in agreement and left it at that. My husband knows how I feel about the organization and has begged me not to "come out" as it reflects negatively on him not having control of his household. He's a pioneer and I would be his third wife who has left "the truth." I really believe this is God's Holy Spirit trying to draw him as what are the odds of all three wives leaving the organization? I did make that comment to him that maybe Jehovah is trying to tell him something.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-04 23:52:28

  I hope he gets the message. :)

• Reply by Willy on 2016-01-05 04:18:26

  Dear Dawn Ann, iTS just like you Told my story, I am in the same position as you and my husband is a ministal servant and loves to go to the meetings. My awakening is just since a few months and everything I discover I show and tell him, but he is not convinced yet and I pray to our loving God that He Will open my husbands heart for the real thruth. Ihave shed a few tears the last couple of months. I am also very grateful for Meletis websites.
  Love to you sister Ann

  • Reply by Dawn Ann on 2016-01-05 14:55:18

    HI Willy, it's so nice to read your comment and know that you have the same hope for your husband too. I know the feeling so well, as I have shed many tears too, then got depressed, etc. This website surely does provide food at the proper time.
    Much love Sister Willy.

• Reply by father jack on 2016-01-05 10:21:09

  How sad is that Dawn Ann when you feel you are at am advantage because you have health issues . Gods blessing sister .

  • Reply by Dawn Ann on 2016-01-05 14:59:44

    Isn't that the truth Father Jack, so pathetic!!! It's funny you brought that out because I wasn't even aware that I was looking at my circumstances in a positive light from that standpoint, LOL. Just goes to show how messed up one (meaning me) can become psychologically from this religion, I mean cult.

Comment by Anonymous on 2016-01-05 02:57:00

Vusi
Hi Meleti!
Enjoyed the article. I stopped field service a year ago. I only do informal witnessing using the Bible only. My wife knows everything I know on the . false teaching. She was disappointed, but could not diffuse the scriptural evidence. We are attending meetings. She still goes out on field service. I had stop conductng bible studies fearing to bring them to the cong for indoctrination. I do not have a family in. I only have in-laws. My family did not take the "truth".
This platform is very helpful. My faith was shaken badly until I discovered this site.»
Thanks( Sorry for my poor English)

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 08:01:34

  You know, I often find that those whose English is limited can convey more intense feeling by their words. Welcome, my brother.

• Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-05 08:55:06

  Welcome brother, your words are powerful. You are not alone.
  Sopater

Comment by TJ Brother on 2016-01-05 03:51:02

Thanks for the article Meleti. I was reminded of Romans 14:22: The faith that you have, keep it to yourself before God. Happy is the man who does not judge himself by what he approves.
We need not explain our reasons for others.
Recently I renounce elder designation.I decided to preserve my spirituality not expose myself to the false arguments presented at the meetings. I cannot continue to support a few things I know are wrong.So I'm moving away from meetings. I am trying to explain the truth about this organization for my wife, but not being an easy task.

• Reply by Willy on 2016-01-05 04:03:50

  TJBrother, Your last sentense is so true, but I hope with patience and love and prayer, our spouses eyes will Be opend too.

  • Reply by TJ Brother on 2016-01-06 02:52:54

    Thank you for your expressions of fraternal affection. Since I began my research on the internet , I found this site as a Christian refuge . I regret that my understanding of English is too limited to communicate more clearly with you .
    I know that I will be vilified by some to be backing away from the organization as being weak in faith , but as already said the important thing is to have a good name with God.
    About my wife she can not contest the truths that I have shown her , but she remains in the mental and social bonds of Watchtower.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 08:35:56

      Social bonds! Yes indeed. They can be most powerful.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 07:58:26

  That is a courageous step, TJ Brother. Our prayers go with you.
  All of the initial founders of this site have gone through it, so we can truly empathize. By the comments of many, I see you are not alone in this decision either. We know how difficult the transition can be. The congregation will be perplexed. Gossip will spring up, though you'll only hear the tiniest fraction of it, for the work of gossip is like that of termites, secretly eating away at the foundation of one's reputation.
  You may lose your good name with the majority of the members of the congregation you attend, but you are making a good name for yourself with the Christ.
  Unfortunately, the congregation members will feel the need to categorize your decision so that their worldview makes sense again. It makes no sense to them that an elder should step down if he is a spiritual man. Yet that is what they have always known you to be, so they are conflicted. Many, but not all, will go for the slot the GB has prepared and consider you are turning apostate. Such ones think they are spiritual, but their actions reveal they fall into another category outlined by Paul. (1Co 2:14-15)

Comment by Alex Rover on 2016-01-05 04:02:25

My take on denying Christ is epitomized by the Memorial celebration. "Take, for this means my body which will be given on behalf of YOU". For one confessing union with Christ, I could not imagine possibly denying my union with him publicly any longer. It is quite hurtful, like Peter, denouncing Christ publicly out of fear. And he wept bitterly..

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 07:36:59

  We are of one mind on this, Alex my brother.

• Reply by father jack on 2016-01-05 09:38:08

  I feel the same alex my conscience tells me that i just could not turn up at that memorial they hold and publicly refuse to partake i think its one thing to hold our own private memorial fair enough but i would rather not turn Up at all at the watchtower memorial to me it constitutes a rejection of christs body and blood ..but thats just my opinion . Others may feel different .

Comment by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-05 08:31:23

My view echos Meleti's thoughts in his comment to Willy..... if we're nifty, we can employ strategy to navigate the minefield (stay under the radar). But, each step we take we realize (before we plant our foot) it could be the trigger that forces our coming out. We accept that reality. Those who have developed the skill of a "cautious serpent" can remain longer.
When Ed Dunlap and Ray Franz began their research "outside the box" for the Aid book, they learned just how peculiar JW theology is. With each verse they read in commentaries and with close scrutiny of the original word meanings, it became painfully evident that many of our teachings are purely traditions. In CofC Ray comments about how much he (Ed and Reinhard) learned during the Aid book research.
Of course Ray was anointed, so his partaking at the memorial was always expected. Although having 4 decades of full time service, and being considered by the GB (and others) as one of the most scholarly in our ranks, Ed did not begin partaking until 1979 (the year before the purge). I had a close contact at Bethel at the time who knew Ed and also various GB members. His partaking at age 69 did raise a red flag.
I try to imagine myself in their shoes, as an insider aware that many of our teachings needed to be updated and reformed. And yet these brothers were somehow able to "navigate the minefield" and remain under the radar for a decade? It is not for me to question their motives for choosing to remain, nor to wonder how they conscientiously managed compromising situations such as writing articles, giving talks at conventions, in the congregation, going in the ministry. Suffice to say, that is between them and Jehovah.
Their influential status did allow them opportunity to introduce "new" thinking through the articles and publications they authored. Of hand two examples come to mind:
"Commentary On The Book Of James" - Ed Dunlap, which has been removed from the WT CD library).
"Maintaining A Balanced View Toward Disfellowshipped Ones" - Ray Franz (w74 p. 466) which was overturned in the 9/15/81 Watchtower as damage control, I personally view this was in response to how to target Ed's prominent Witness family in Oklahoma (his brother was city overseer).
Those of us who have thus far navigated the minefield successfully can use our influence to help sincere ones learn to do outside research for themselves. As Meleti said, we can through our comments, and as Jabez said, through his publica talks, follow the example of Ed and Ray, by slipping a "new" thought into something we say. I personally do this all the time. Nothing "in your face", just something new and stimulating.
What has happened with the Royal Commission has set in motion a major happening which I (and others) foresee. When this occurs, we will witness literally thousands of brothers and sisters who will be disillusioned and in need of comfort and guidance. At that point, we won't have to fear being "outed" by a Judas. The branch and CO's will have their hands full dealing with the fallout of thousands of elders and tens of thousands of members. .
If I'm able to remain under the radar until then, I'll just blend in with the crowd walking out the door.
Sopater

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 09:58:15

  Good points, Sopater. One question though. In my copy, 2014, of the WT Lib on CD, the Commentary on James is still there. However, I don't have the latest version of the program. Have they now removed it?

  • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-05 17:39:30

    I just noticed Meleti, my mistake. It is there. Thank you for noting that.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-05 18:06:41

      It's nice not to be the only one to goofs up from time to time. :)

      • Reply by sopaterfberoea on 2016-01-06 15:22:49

        I guess I'm remembering my contact at Bethel telling me the GB had some issues with the book after the fact. If memory serves, CoC mentioned that Fred Franz took issue with certain parts of the book. I assumed and you know what that means.

Comment by Menrov on 2016-01-05 15:35:32

Hi, it remains a topic that can generate many discussions. I do believe that for one's judgment and eternal life, the organization one belongs to/associates with, does not play a key role. In the end, it is faith (and how one shows that in daily life) that matters. But the association one has, can have an impact on one's faith, now and in the future.
When that association has a negative influence on the faith one has or is presumed to develop in Christ or on how one can express that faith, it can be good to reconsider that association. What is in the end the added value of that association?
And if that association actually becomes more of a blocker for others to hear about Christ and related gospel, again, what is the added value.
Or if that association makes it difficult to show the love for your neighbor in the sense that Christ has meant it, again, what is the added value of that association?
I am merely saying, that there are true risks involved when one decides to continue or start association with people or an organization that have a strong influence on the behavior (thinking, dress code, conversations, social life, work, lecture, personal life and decisions etc) of its members with the objective to maintain its (reputation) distance (forced separation) from the world we live in, or when they preach various doctrines that do not honour Christ in the sense that Christ and HIs Father meant that honour be and more or less expect (demand) its members to support that doctrine.
Why did people approach Jesus? Because He was not like their religious leaders, He was approachable for all people, He did not judge people. None of the apostles remained with their religious organization. They knew:Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life
In the end, it is very important that in all things one keeps a clear conscious. Jesus said in Matt. 10:37 “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
As long as one is convinced he/she can follow Christ with the association he/she has, it is good. But if one feels that his/her association actually limit the love one can develop for Christ or makes it difficult to follow him, it would be good to reconsider your choice.
I hope the above does not offend anyone as that is not my intention at all. Sorry if it does.

• Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-05 18:43:49

  I agree with those sentiments menrov . The witness religion in the end just fostered feelings of anger and frustration in me . I just had to get out . I just coudnt deal with it .

  • Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-06 00:04:47

    Menrov, Father jack-
    Amen to your comments. What can make a person angry, is that on all levels you are treated like a child. Morris and Lett want you to believe they are your daddy. "And remember, the governing body loves you very much." The organization gives a wrong perception of what true humility is.
    We need to submit to this and that. Something doesn't seem logical? Submit like a ignorant child. Be humble, "wait on Jehovah" (governing body). Do not run ahead of God (gb). All dignity is stripped from you in all aspects of life. Since I have left, all dignity has been restored. I feel powerful. Yes, Father jack, the anger can cause you to resent the people themselves. That is a sign to leave.

• Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-06 01:48:33

  In the last few years before we stopped going to meetings, our family found itself so embroiled in congregation politics, and so traumatized by the injustices we were suffering that 1. we had to limit association for the sake of damage control, and 2. we were so hurt and distracted that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah started to weaken. We stuck it out, even relocating so that the meetings would be more bearable, believing that it was Jehovah's will. What a relief to discover that this is not Jehovah's organization and we could now focus on serving him as our Father.

Comment by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-05 16:23:04

Greetings,
I have learned to reconcile the situation as follows.
In my mind I divide Jehovah's Witness teachings into two categories. 1) the Christian way of living or moral code of conduct., 2) teachings or doctrines.
When it comes to morality, and the Christian way of life, what is taught in the pages of the publications sets a very high standard, one that few religions if any profess or adhere to. For example we are repeatedly exorted to forgive one another freely, to love one another, to follow the course of hospitality, to desist from gossip and slander, to be honest, hardworking, to pay our taxes, to settle disputes in a spirit free from contention, the list is virtually endless, I could go on and on. There is no need however, for you all know this to be the case. Simply put what is taught with regard to Christian living is of the highest order, we are unlikely to encounter it elsewhere. From time to time you may encounter individuals that live by elevated standards on a personal level but that kind of uniformity is difficult to find in any one group as a whole. I would say that the Christian way of life espoused in the publications is the best available. Wether people put it into practice or not is altogether a different issue, but as far as the moral code we live by is concerned, it is the very finest available. It is after all what the Scriptures teach. For all their perceived faults we well know that at the end of the day if we were in real need there would be many that would willingly offer themselves to assist meaningfully, selflessly and generously without a second thought. I have personally seen this repeated over and over. Although we may not have experienced such assistance personally we no doubt know of others that have. Therefore, my conclusion is that with regard to our Christian way of life and the sense of wellbeing and security it engenders, in my considerable experience, no other group offers anything close.
Having said all that, this brings me to the second point I raised. That of JW doctrine or teaching. Here is where my approach differs. I am very selective with what I choose to believe and accept as truth. If I cannot accept a teaching then I reject it in my heart and mind. Even this step is taken only after prayerful consideration. I feel free to accept or reject any teaching, as I see fit. But I do this on a personal or family level. I do not involve others.
The REAL CRUX of the matter is this this: if your motive is pure and you attitude is right Jehovah will never condemn you. If you act from a genuine belief, even if you are wrong Jehovah will not hold it against you as long as your motive is pure and attitude is right.
In summary there are many positives to be had. At the end of the day most witnesses are genuine, hardworking people who are looking for the same things we are. True they may be completely blind to obvious truths, but for the most part they are not wicked people. Simply the "victims of victims".
It may well be a case therefore of not " throwing out the baby with the bath water" as it were.
All the best

• Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-05 21:06:45

  Other religions are moral too. I can think of another religion where homosexuality is forbidden, as is drinking alcohol or coffee. Doing these things could get you disfellowshipped. Does that make them the right religion? Does sincerity of belief mean you are on the right path? No. People believe what they want to believe, or are trapped into believing for fear of being condemned. Some would say the end justifies the means, as it keeps people more moral than they might be if the "rules" weren't in place. It is not, however, Christian freedom.

  • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 02:20:21

    You may have missed my point. It is a case of teaching the right thing. That doesn't mean individuals will do the right thing. For the most part the moral standard espoused by JW's is correct. I willing concede that many do not apply those lofty standards but that is not a reflection on the teaching. Naturally this includes elders and CO's etc. My comments were a generalisation. I understand that there are always exceptions. I know first hand how elders can be very duplicitous. It's been said about elders that ' it 's like an old boys club. It is difficult to get in, but once your in, you've got it made.'
    All the best

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-13 02:48:16

    Hello Anonymous,
    I have just found your comment as I've looked further down this thread. I couldn't agree with you more. I am finding it hard to understand why there is such a focus on the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses when it is just one of the many who claim to be the only channel god is using. Surely ANY organisation that has an entity (be it a single person or group of persons) that sets itself up as an authority over others thus usurping the role of Christ is disapproved. How could they be approved of by Christ when they don't respect and honour his role. It's interesting that the Insight book explains that the word 'antichrist' can mean either against or INSTEAD OF Christ. Isn't it wonderful to have Christian freedom?! I feel so happy not to be moving about in the dark hoping not to be 'found out'. I am thrilled to know the real truth and want to let everyone know how wonderful it is to be free to follow Christ without any human entity dictating how that should be. Jesus' yoke is certainly kindly and his load is light. ?

• Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-06 01:42:23

  I also used to appreciate the moral standard. Alas I think now that it is just a veneer. What really got to me was the lying by elders and circuit overseers, and then to see the elders and Geoffrey Jackson lie under oath at the Royal Commission.
  The no1 WT 2016 entitled entitled 'Why be honest', has this definition of lying on page 5:
  "Lying What is it? Saying something false to someone who is entitled to know the truth."
  So it is only a lie if the person was ENTITLED to know the truth. Evidently elders, circuit overseers and even governing body members can decide who is entitled to the truth or not. This does not correspond with Jehovah, who cannot lie, and Jesus, in whose mouth no deception was found.

  • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 02:31:16

    Please don't confuse a correct teaching or lofty standard with people's inability or unwillingness to apply it. These are two seperate issues. You are correct of course some elders etc are less than truthful, but that is not a reflection on the moral standards. It is rather a failure on the part of the individual and those responsible for upholding those standards. While men are imperfect and pursue their own agendas we will always see this kind of abuse of authority. If we believe in God, don't imagine for a moment that it won't catch up with them in the end. God is not one to be mocked. It is a fear inspiring thing to fall into God's hands. Therefore, the best thing we can do is make sure we don't do anything to grieve the Holy Spirit.
    All the best.

    • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-06 02:38:42

      Dear ANTONINVS the point I was trying to make is that the official teaching, as found in the no 1 WT for 2016 and quoted above, is also compromised from a moral point of view. The teachings themselves are not correct or lofty anymore, even on something a simple and straightforward as lying.
      All the best too.

      • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 03:36:48

        Thanks for your reply, I appreciate your time and comments. I take your point.
        My comments are a generalisation. There are always exceptions. Perhaps I should have said for the most part the Socitey teaches lofty standards. Which in reality are not their standards at all but are scriptural teachings.
        The point I was trying to make is that the average witness is not a bad person. Sure they have their inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies but their not evil. For the most part they try to live to some kind of higher moral code. And surely that is commendable.
        There are those who clearly act in an unchristian manner and have little regard for standards. Some elders fall into this category. In the case of rotten apples one can spoil the bunch. But can we really apply that in this context? Does one or more rotten apple reflect poorly on all the genuine Christians who daily battle to do their best?
        I guess I'm just trying to grab onto anything positive and hold on to it. It's easy to focus on the negatives. It's the old story, a person can do the right thing 9 times out of 10 and as humans we will soon forget the 9 he got it right and focus on the 1 time he got it wrong. We need to be balanced in our approach. As I said earlier we don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.
        All the best.

        • Reply by Allen on 2016-01-06 04:10:54

          @antonivs But why do you need the Watchtower publications or meetings to teach you these "lofty standards" when you have the Bible?

          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 16:06:12

            Hi Allen. Of course you are right. No I don't need the WT publications. The bible is enough and I make use of it. I have found that no one bible is 100% correct including the NWT. Therefore, I make use of a number of fine translations in order to make comparisons. The bible should be enough for anyone, after all it is the only book authored by God himself.
            All the best

        • Reply by Out of Africa on 2016-01-06 06:04:10

          I agree with you 100%, and that comes to the whole point of Meleti’s addendum. Each situation and case is different and hence our decisions may be different but not wrong.
          Menrov commented that for our judgement and eternal life, the organization we belong to or associate with does not play a key role.
          Think of the parable of the wheat and weeds – they grow together until the conclusion of the system. My understanding is that all different Christian religions would have some wheat and much weeds and the separation can’t be made until the conclusion of the system as the wheat would be damaged. So it doesn’t matter where we go as long as we don’t compromise what we know to be correct. See for example the comments right at the bottom of this article from Jabez, who is using his situation to do much good.
          In our personal case, our reputation had been so destroyed by certain ones that most ‘faithful’ witnesses shunned us for no reason, and that is before we awakened to the real truth. So our staying would serve no good purpose at all, we weren’t having any association as individuals were judging us and they also wouldn’t listen if we tried to speak to them. We have met a very nice family, non JW background, to fellowship with. Interestingly, they go to the Christadelphian church to ‘witness’ to them, even though they don’t agree with all their teachings. I also have a few bible studies. So we are able to continue Christian association, albeit not as part of the WT.

          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 08:04:44

            I am sorry to hear that your reputation as a family was so badly damaged. I have seen this happen many times before. Even though we are admonished not to judge others witnesses on the whole are very judgemental. It is a product of the mindset that is encouraged and nurtured by the powers that be. That mindset that makes potential policemen out of every individual. It's sad and troublesome. It almost reminds one of Nazi Germany. People informed on one another within families and believed they were doing a great thing. It is worrying that people can be so easily manipulated.
            All the best

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 08:54:27

            Soon you will be forming a congregation. Excellent!

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 08:40:22

          ANTONINVS, I agree. Must of what is taught is straight from the Bible and has therefore a benefit to the listener. Often when reviewing a WT article, I can find no fault for a good part of it. I'm happy, because I don't enjoy finding fault. When I do, it usually comes in the closing paragraphs as a misapplication of the truths revealed in the body of the article. Usually the misapplication has to do with supporting the Organization in some way.

      • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 04:08:22

        The problem is that Christians are encouraged in Scripture to associate and meet together with like minded individuals. A Christian cannot be an island. This runs contrary to scripture. We can't simply decide to withdraw to our family. The apostle Paul and Barnabas went to great lengths to set up many new congregations. The idea being that Christians should come together to worship. So the question remains, if JW's are a poor option who is a better option? No one religion is 100% right! All have some degree of error to a greater or lesser extent. Where does one go in order to fulfill the exhortation to meet together?
        I'm just posing the question. Because as a true christian one can't abandon the injunction to meet and worship together and share in an interchange of encouragement. It is beholden on all Christians to come together in worship as was the pattern in the first century.
        Surely the bible would not encourage an action that was impossible to fulfil. So if not JW's then who?
        I don't have the answer.
        All the best.

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 08:52:08

          I agree wholeheartedly. We must associate with one another, to incite to love and to fine works.
          When Paul and Barnabas entered a new town, they were the only Christians. But that didn't remain the case for long. Soon their preaching created a small group which then grew.
          Perhaps my own personal experience might be used to illustrate what can happen now.
          When I started this journey five years ago, I had only one true confident, Apollos. However, I began speaking to other trusted friends. Some betrayed that trust. Some remain friends but have withdrawn. But some have come out to join with me. Soon we had a dozen like-minded brothers and sisters and began to associate secretly.
          We should all not let fear exercise a restraint on our expression of love. We should, with great caution, and mindful of the sensibilities of others, reach out. There are many yearning as we are for good association, but fear is also restraining them. Our preaching work continues, but perhaps our first territory is the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses itself.

          • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 16:41:47

            Thank you Meleti for your kind reply. Much appreciated. It is sad that in many respects the so called modern day Christian congregation no longer resembles the first century congregation which employed a more organic approach. I think ORGANISATION has put an end to that. With organisation comes hierarchy, man made rules, and much that is the responsibility of the individual Christian is abdicated to the organisation. It thinks for you and decides for you. Efficiency soon replaces love and the very essence of everything that Jesus instituted is polluted. Christianity should set one free and there should only be one law, the law of love. After all if you love your neighbour you won't place your rights or interests above his. And if everyone acted like that toward one another can you imagine the harmony, the peace, the sense of well being etc. Instead there is no real freedom. One does not even have the freedom to pose a genuine question without fear of reprisal. That's organisation!
            By the way my references to organisation above are with reference to organisation as an entity. There is nothing wrong with being organised in the sense of planning, or caring for things that need doing.

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 17:01:36

              So true. Rutherford had so many things wrong, but there was one thing he got right, especially if we add one word: Organized Religion Is a Snare and a Racket.

              • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 17:17:24

                Hi Meleti,
                Just wondering, are you familiar with Deuteronomy 18:20 and Ezeckiel 13 from verse 6 onward? These two scriptures give us real food for thought in the light of the WT society's repeated attempts at prophetic predictions.

                • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 17:29:27

                  Actually, I wrote a short piece on it here: "Why We Are Not False Prophets"

        • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-13 06:25:51

          Hello Antoninvs,
          I have only just found your comment here as I've been working down the thread. I hope the following scripture can help you with the question you pose. The scripture is MATTHEW 18:20. I too felt strongly about being part of a large group of worshippers of Jehovah - it makes you feel secure to be part of a large group. However this scripture in Matthew keeps coming to my mind. While we were Jehovah's Witnesses, we had no problem thinking about small groups of Witnesses in certain distant places and knew that although they were only few, they were united with all their brothers. We had no problem thinking about brothers in prison, knowing that even if they were in solitary confinement they were still part of the organisation. When I thought about this I realised that what we need is faith - faith to know that when we leave the filthy organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses, we are not alone. We become part of the body of Christ and are united with all those who have the mind of Christ, even if we don't know them all. We need to walk by faith and not by sight. That being said, from the very first week that we left the organisation (July 2015) we began meeting at our friend's home on Sundays at 10:30 - just three of us at first (my husband and I and another brother who left at the same time) and then four as my friend who lives in Western Australia has joined us. She joins us by phone as she lives thousands of miles away but with the phone it's like she's right there. I can honestly say that these meetings where we read straight from the bible (we're currently in the book of ACTS) are the most wonderful meetings I have ever enjoyed in my life!!! We read a paragraph each and any one of us are free to comment. We are respectful yet relaxed while reading and we are absolutely AMAZED at what we're learning! We truly feel led by the holy spirit. And now that I have started commenting on this website, I have already made contact with others and we're going to get together on Skype. Wonderful! Wonderful! Wonderful! Our God and his beloved son are guiding us - you can really see and feel that. I am hoping to start a website soon where I can share the interesting points we're picking up each week from our bible reading. I am very excited about that prospect. It's just a case of getting through a few secular commitments I have at present that will allow me to concentrate more fully on sharing.

          • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-13 10:21:29

            Judith,
            Is it possible that your expressions (to encourage those of us who remain associated to officially to "cut ties" with the organization) stems from an emotional need to justify your own personal decision?
            Just because one person chooses the "hardline" path does not mean that others are wrong for not choosing that path. Consider this: We're all judged by Christ at a future date, not now, correct? Then what is the rush?
            How many of "God's people" are members of other religious groups today? Many I believe. The call for them to get out of Babylon occurs after Babylon falls. That is future. Those who fail to get out of her at that time will perish (but not the second death) at Armageddon.
            It is how Christ finds us after the call to get out THAT matters.
            Many here have confessed the Christ, and are managing to "walk the tightrope" just as Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap did for years during their awakening process. We do it at our own pace, just like the butterfly that tirelessly struggles to emerge from the cocoon. What happens if we attempt to hurry the process by encouraging (even admonishing) someone to emerge before it's their time? I know (and have read) comments from many who chose the hardline path, who are now very bitter and hateful activists against JW. Some are now agnostic, even atheist.
            Some of us here have been awakening for many years, myself for 10 years. I have served as an elder for nearly three decades. I have learned that there is an alternate path, and that for my circumstance, there is wisdom in taking this path, one I believe to be strategic and shrewd. (Prov 22:3). I am in the driver's seat, I can continue to associate, with the understood caveat I could face a firing squad tomorrow. Like an undercover agent living in a dangerous country, we learn to live with that reality.
            When we first begin our journey we feel such emotional upset, anger and disbelief, we want to scream the results of our research to the entire world. It's human nature to feel this way. It's stage one of the awakening process. In my early awakening years, I sent out "edgy" emails and links to elder friends, and soon found they didn't appreciate it. So, I backed off. I had to busy myself with deep study and other activities to maintain my sanity, and save myself from myself.
            Thankfully, Meleti and Apollos began BP and DTT in 2012. While I refrained from getting involved for nearly 2 years (as a lurker), I did find much solace and comfort in the articles written and posts from members. I then felt what ET felt when the spaceship arrived.
            By remaining involved, I have had the privilege of personally assisting several friends in researching God's Word using online interlinear's and commentaries. It is having an impact. These friends are asking questions now, sharing their research, and I look at them and smile. When it is their personal discovery, discussing that topic with them is safe. it is truly heartwarming. I would have missed this joy had I chosen the hardline path. These dear ones (some family) would now be avoiding me like the plague, as a diseased apostate.
            A few years ago, I opened up privately to a very close elder friend who then became a Judas and turned me in to the CO. So before the elder body I received a scathing reprimand. I was given an official "cease and desist" order. This was my "first" admonition. (Titus 3:10) I have one "get out of jail card" left. So I am now a very cautious serpent.
            I have become adept at dodging bullets. I have eliminated most public talk outlines and now speak on topics such as being honest and forgiving. My conscience is totally clear, as these teach Christian principles. I do hear the bullet zing by my ear sometimes. So, I leave the future totally in Jehovah's hands. If I'm forced to play my remaining card, I will be deleted I'm certain. At that point, what happens, happens. I am confident that my Father and my Lord will look after me. And I have my dear friends here at BP that love unconditionally. No one can take that from us.
            For those who willingly chose (or were forced to chose) the hardline path, I salute you dear brothers and sisters. You are like martyrs. l am empathetic. At some point I will be sympathetic to the pain an injustice you have suffered for Christ.
            Whether still associating or not, we can all be brothers and sisters in Christ.
            Phileo,
            Sopater

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 08:31:16

    Thank you for that, Out of Africa. While I continue to resist the impulse in my writing to refer to false teachings from the Governing Body as lies, it seems by their own mouth they are condemned. If they know a teaching is false (There can be no doubt on some of the teachings that they have had ample evidence of what the truth is.) and yet continue to teach it to us who are entitled to know the truth of God's word, then they are lying. It is the same principle that Jesus applied to the Pharisees:
    “Jesus said to them: “If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains.”” (Joh 9:41)

Comment by Ruth on 2016-01-05 17:22:29

Thank you so much for this very balanced explanation & scriptural discussion of confessing Christ. I have read a number of your posts & am very upbuilt by your application of scripture in bringing to light & putting into words how I often have been feeling but not able to put these into words myself. It's a pleasure to read & understand the scriptures in the right light. Keep up the good work. My husband & I have recently left & moved house & so far we have gone undetected by the local cong because as they don't know where we live. Our children & their spouses have also left.

Comment by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-05 20:54:19

Appreciated your addendum Melenti.
I think your original thought was clearly expressed. I have a friend who stays within the organization even though it repulses him. It is not merely for family. He is there for those that are discouraged due to guilt from the heavy load the Watchtower puts on them. He uses the Bible to show that what God says through the Bible, is refreshing. God doesn't care if you are a low hour publisher. Being an elder or ms means nothing to him. He values us for what we are. He encourages those by being there for them, because they can't express true feelings to elders. That is a noble reason. But speaking for myself, you made a comment that was the reason for me leaving. Your comment to someone here was that if you do leave, the "congregation will be perplexed". I totally agree with that. The fact that a person like myself, who was 110% in, known throughout the area, who was obsessed with the Watchtower, and then suddenly vanishes overnight, never to return, sends a powerful message. Most people know in their heart, that I would NEVER leave the Watchtower. In fact, another person told my son, that it is strange your dad left. He would not leave for just anything. I feel that for some, it could be a nudge to wake some up. In fact, a car group of sisters stopped at my house to encourage me since I hadn't been to a meeting in awhile. I was stressed out at the time, and so I told them why. I told them that I can prove the society is covering up their history. I told them we can watch "Faith in Action" video, and I will show them. I said i had a photo of Russell's biography that they said they never wrote. They were in shock. They knew I could prove it. They literally were running to the door, saying they didn't need to see it. A week earlier a couple stopped by, and I tried to be nice and told them that i can't talk about it, but it is in the publications. They tried to drag it out of me. But i told them they needed to have a strong heart in order for me to show them. With a shaky voice, she said, "Maybe we shouldn't know. We really need to get going." The point being, is both approaches can work. For me, my vanishing sent shockwaves. A warning talk was given, and it was said in the talk that sometimes we don't understand things. But we need to leave it to Jehovah. I believe some are truly afraid to get near due to the fact that, Vincent does not leave without good cause. With time, I hope it will make people think and wake up.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 00:39:29

  That's quite a sobering account, Vincent. Thank you so much for sharing it.

  • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-06 10:23:59

    Vincent,
    I agree with you that when a highly visible and devoted elder fades soon after resigning, a huge statement is made within the circuit, life friends and active family. They still see you as a sincere brother, though they fear what you've learned is so compelling, they can't allow themselves to know it.
    I felt exactly this way about reading CoC (for 22 years). I so feared reading it because everyone active views "the book" and Ray Franz as the ultimate apostate.
    For many years, when she would read positive reviews about the book and Ray) I told her we read that book only when we're ready to throw in the towel. I felt I did not want to be "prejudiced" with his thinking, and that if he left for valid reasons, I would discover those reasons without his help. And that exactly what happened.
    Recently I read the book front to back (in 5 days) and found not one single statement that is "apostate". For those who "fear" reading it, I can honestly tell you it much of it is history, direct quotes from publications dealing with how many times our "time line" teachings have changed. ,What is apostate about that? It is also an inside look into how the GB functions. Frankly, in that I devoted by life to this cause, I think I have the right to know what goes on at the highest level. He also shares the account himself and others being unfairly accused and judged during the purge.
    I found not one sentence of misinformation, not one statement that unfairly portrayed the facts.
    After reading it, I have felt a peace that I've never felt before. I now know why the GB so fears this book.
    He speaks truth and it's all documented. How can the truth be refuted?
    Sopater

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-06 11:12:13

      My path to enlightenment parallels yours. Apollos gave me a push by challenging 1914 and there followed a back and forth exchange that convinced me it was flawed. But from the beginning, my only source material was the Bible (and Bible lexicons from time to time). I read no literature that might be construed as "apostate" from a JW perspective. Only after I had arrived at the understanding that the organization was not Jehovah's special possession did I read Crisis of Conscience and then In Search of Christian Freedom. I was so encouraged to see that the truths those men arrived at back in the 70s were the very same ones Apollos and I had discovered using only the Scriptures. It was yet one more confirmation that it was God's word that was speaking to us and not the voice of men.

      • Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-06 17:00:19

        sopaterofberoea and Meleti:
        I agree that discovering things the way you did, really feels good. Both of you I'm sure were like me, you would do anything not to leave. You wanted to be proved wrong. The same happened to me. I was so excited to find online public archives of old Watchtower publications. I downloaded everything onto my smartphone. Needless to say, I discovered the lies and coverup. It hurt so bad. I thought I was being possessed. Even my children thought so. I went to the elders in tears telling them my discovery. Within weeks, 2 elders attacked me via phone. I laid it all out, including the Royal Commission findings. I was angry. I told them that they norv7 men in New York will dictate my conscience with regards to my worship of Yahweh, and they are not going to take my peace away from me. I forwarded the official list of all 1006 pedophiles to them. I sent photographs of lies I found within the publications. After I did that, I felt an exhilaration that I never felt before. I swore I could fly. It is all in motivation. Why they are not trying to disfellowship me, remains a mystery.

        • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-07 07:52:02

          Vincent,
          I think the documentation you provided the elders is so irrefutable…. it has stopped them in their tracks. If you’re not attending and the congregation is for the most part avoiding you, you aren’t a threat. Best for them to let a sleeping pit bull sleep.
          The problem for the GB (and their spokesperson the CO) is that if they do disfellowship you (or force your DA) word will spread, your story will get publicity in the circuit, and there may be others that have serious doubts that will contact you. This could spark a raging fire.
          Given your former high visibility, it would be prudent for them let you and your story fade. In a couple years you’ll be mostly forgotten. Some will reconcile your leaving perhaps thinking you just got burned out from being unbalanced and always giving 110%.
          At this point, it appears to be a standoff. Of course if you share research with active members and it causes upset in the congregation, you will force their hand.
          From my experience (nearly three decades) as an elder, this is how I would view the situation.
          Take courage my brother, for we are not alone. Jehovah and Christ have provided a wonderful family for us here whose love is not conditional.
          Sopater

Comment by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-06 02:43:46

Whatever one decides to do should be done out of a clean conscience, with a pure motive and the right attitude. If one' s decisions are based on these, Jehovah will never judge you adversely even if in the long run you end up being wrong. If you act out of a genuine heart desire you have nothing to fear from God.
All the best.

Comment by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-06 08:04:25

Meleti,
I really appreciate the clear and concise encouragement you convey, and I concur with your thoughts completely. For the awakening Christian I think it boils down to 3 things:
1. Individual personality
2. Conscience
3. Personal circumstance
In our indoctrination as JW's, we are trained to be bold about our convictions and expressing our belief that we are the only true religion. For anyone to challenge this is "fighting" words.
Our "in your face" approach, stepping onto a stranger's property uninvited, knocking on their door (often at a very inopportune moment) and while they wipe their eyes from being awaken from sleep, we proceed to advise them that their religion is false (if they have one) and that JW is the only true religion..... Can we not appreciate how they view this as highly disrespectful, insulting and judgmental?
I share this to attempt to make a point: We are (were) indoctrinated and directed to treat our neighbor this way, to be completely insensitive as to how our words make them feel. As we begin awakening, the "in your face" approach we've become so comfortable with can, if not repressed, result in the following:
1. The tendency to tell JW friends all we've learned (which results in our being judged and ultimately shunned). This leads to public humiliation, which can result in our having animosity toward our former friends and the organization, then
2. The tendency to judge the "organization" and our former friends, and anyone who continues to associate.
We've been trained to employ the "in your face" approach. As we awaken, instead of judging non-JW's, we may now find ourselves judging JW's, including those who continue to associate during their awakening process. What do the scriptures say about judging another? (Matt 7:1,2,12; Rom 2:1-3; Matt 7:12)
We can allow God's holy spirit and his Word to help us resist the tendency to judge (and use the "in your face" approach),regardless of whether someone chooses to leave or to remain associated for personal reasons.Ray and Ed remained associated (at a very high level) for a decade after they began awakening. Are we to judge them?
Each individual awakens at their own pace. What violates the conscience of a more mature (awakened) Christian, may not yet be an issue to one in the early stages of awakening. The one that has knowledge should not judge one that has less knowledge, nor should the one with less knowledge judge the one that has knowledge. (1 Cor 8:9; Rom 14:1)
Love and respect for all should prevail. (Eph 4:2)
Phileo,
Sopater

Comment by Sean on 2016-01-06 18:05:54

Hi Meleti,
thouroughly enjoyed reading your article. It was very balanced and well written. It is a struggle to walk the fine line of truth and error as what I now view myself as -a Christian in association with Jehovahs Witnesses. I genuinely wish they would make the required changes to their teachings and rules. I cant see that happening until our Lord Jesus Christ returns and sets all matters straight. Thankyou so much again for this article and the time you and others spend putting these articles together. Your brother in Christ

Comment by Adolf on 2016-01-07 00:33:04

I have been one of Jehovah's witnesses for the past 55 years, during the last fifty years I have pioneered and served as an elder with a variety of special assignments that I used to consider them as "priviliges" a year ago, I started to calling into question certain doctrines, and in light of the bible itsels I found them to be false, recently a close brother and close friend cautiously spoke to me about the Beroean Pickets, and opened up about having similar concerns we both looked at same of the topics there written until just recently I read the one about Research, confessing Christ and Walking the Tightrope.
I like to thank you for such good an well directed subjects that can help brothers with troubled conscience to find the the courage to come to grips with the real real truth of Gds' word,
May our Lord Jesus Bless your Good work in behalf of many honest harted ones.
your Brother in Christ.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-07 07:42:19

  Thank you so much Adolf, and welcome. I hope you continue to comment as your years of experience will be beneficial for us to learn from.

• Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-07 22:07:07

  Stick around Adolf. Be patient. Read all the comments in these articles. I haven't been here as long as others. But recently, the people on this site truly feel like brothers. Part of what helped me was reading the comments and sharing thoughts. After awhile, people's personalities shine through. It may take some time, but keep coming here, and you will feel similarly. This place definitely takes away a lot of loneliness you experience. Sometimes I feel obsessed with coming here, but weren't we obsessed at one time with seeing our friends at the kingdom hall? Their is nothing wrong with feeling that way. Looking forward to hearing more from you!

Comment by Adolf on 2016-01-07 00:35:14

good

Comment by Adolf on 2016-01-07 00:36:22

yes

• Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-07 11:22:37

  Welcome Brother Adolf, you are among friends. I too look forward to your insightful contributions.
  Sopater

Comment by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 02:00:20

I would add one caution to the comments regarding how to respond to the enquiries made by elders. This is not a criticism. Because what Meleti says is technically correct. You can't be disfellowshipped for professing belief in Christ.
However, and this where I would make my caution. If one excercises his or her right to defend ones self before the elders, the danger is that what is perceived as non cooperation on your part then becomes the basis for the elders to take their action against you further. The focus will shift from the matter they originally came to question you about and all of a sudden you will find yourself having to defend what will be perceived as an arrogant attitude of non cooperation.
You see, all Christians have the right to vigorously and frankly defend themselves when questioned or accused, that is a basic right. And a body of truly spiritual men would not take offence at that. But all too often elders will take a very dim view of anyone who vigorously defends themselves. They will label you as proud, arrogant etc. Then they will have you in their sights and simply wait till they can pin something more solid on you. In short if you insist on your rights often times you will lose.
I have seen this happen time and time again. Such elders are not interested in establishing what is right they are only interested in being iright. The issue is obscured because these men make it personal. They see everything you say as a personal attack on them. Anything that is perceived as a lack of respect for their authority will very quickly have you on the back foot. Often no matter how tactful and respectful you are in making your point it will have no effect, they will simply see you as condescending. Once they have perceived you as troublesome they stop listening. You can talk till the cows come home and it will be like talking to brick walls.
So while Meleti is technically correct in practice it doesn't always pan out the way it should.
All the best.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-07 07:39:51

  The points ANTONINVS makes are valid. We have Jesus before the Sanhedrin as a Biblical example of this mindset. It is the JW equivalent of the Kobayashi Maru. :)
  For this reason, many have decided simply to decline a meeting with the elders. The only meeting you cannot decline is a call to a judicial hearing. Well, you can decline that as well, but they will just disfellowship in absentia.
  The best example of how to deal with self-important men is provided by Jesus himself in his dealings with the Jewish leaders. I also recommend an excellent movie on the value of remaining silent: A Man for All Seasons

  • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-07 07:59:51

    Greetings Meleti,
    I think you are right the best course is to keep quite if at all possible. It would have been pointless for Jesus to speak, because the outcome was a forgone conclusion. With elders it often ends up the same way, if they are gunning for you its all over in their minds before it even begins. Anything you say in your defence will only confirm the conclusions they have already drawn. Listening to both sides before drawing conclusions is fundamental to justice, and yet how many times I've seen elders make up their minds based on hearsay or gossip. It's sad, and troubling.

• Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-09 17:32:06

  Hats off to ant thats correct again if they cant get you on one thing they will change the goal posts and hurl the accusation of loose conduct instead which they percieve as brazen attitude . (Not a bible teaching ) they did it to one of my sons they realised they could not dish him officially for the orignal accusation . So hey he had a bad (brazen ) attitude toward the elders as well good enough. The red card came out. Game over man game over .

Comment by Judith on 2016-01-09 03:58:51

Hello there,
This is my first contribution to the website. I have read many articles here over the past few months that have strengthened my faith and enhanced my understanding of scripture. For this I am truly grateful. I had no idea though that you were still associating with the organisation Meleti! How strange?!
Your article explains your reasons for doing so and as you rightly point out, each of us must make our own decision in this regard. ROM 14:12. However, I feel that many of your arguments are not sound and thought you and others who frequent the site may appreciate some observations on the matter.
The first point relates to your statement regarding the command at REV 18:4. You state ‘there will come a time when our lives will depend on getting out of her.” Your article expresses the view that the command to get out of her is future. How do we know when that command applies? It could be future or it could be now. Unless there is something definite in the scriptures (perhaps there is but I haven’t seen it) we should not make categorical inferences.
The ironic thing is that straight after making your comment about the timing of REV 18:4 you say, “There was a time when we listened to the opinions of men. Their interpretations of the Scriptures greatly influenced our life course.” I couldn’t help but think that your comment, being quite definite that REV 18:4 is future, is exactly what you condemn in this statement. It is just an opinion without categorical evidence and could influence your readers to a wrong conclusion. According to your own words I should say to you, “Hold on, just a minute, Buckaroo,” but I prefer to say, “Dear Brother. I think you have made an error in judgment here.”
Your next comment really shocked me. You said, “Jehovah’s Witnesses are all Christians.” Christian means a follower of Christ. When we were in the organisation, we were followers of men, not Christ. We THOUGHT we were following Christ but we were not. My husband and I have only left the organisation recently – JULY 2015. I feel that I was not a Christian until I gave Jesus the correct honour. Whilst we were observing commands of men as doctrines, how could we be true Christians? How could we be Christians if we don’t accept the invitation to be in the Kingdom? You’ve written so many wonderful articles about the falsehoods we were taught but then you say that Jehovah’s Witnesses are all Christians?! I don’t understand why you feel that way. You may as well say that all Catholics are Christians since they confess that Christ is Lord in their words. For that matter, all religions in Christendom confess that Christ is Lord in their words. A true Christian does more than just say they believe in Jesus – they LIVE the life Jesus wants them to. Jesus said, “Come be my follower.” This is an active expression of faith, not just words.
Under the heading ‘Denouncing Falsehood’ you speak of black and white situations and grey areas. Yes, grey areas do require thinking ability but this is not to say that there are not black and white areas that need to be acknowledged and respected – obviously there are and I couldn’t help but think of the perfect scripture for a black and white description – 2 COR 6:14-18 “What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?” Once again there is an irony to your article since your final comment (before your Addendum) says that those in the organisation do not love the light and you quote apostle John who speaks of those in the darkness. Yes, they are in the darkness! Paul wrote, “What sharing does light have with darkness?”
You comment that it is often not what we do that counts, but why we do it. This in itself can apply to many situations but with our worship the bible is clear – sincerity is not enough. Jesus said that many would say to him in that day ‘did we not do this and that’ and yet Jesus would tell them that he never knew them. It didn’t matter that they were sincere, they were not doing his will.
You then discuss reasons for leaving the organisation and your comments about motives are relevant. However I was disappointed that neither of the two reasons you give for those leaving involve our great God Jehovah and his Christ. They all revolve around other people’s feelings. I know that my husband and I left for one reason alone – our love and respect for our God Jehovah and his Christ. Jesus words are clear in MATT 10:32-39. We must love the Christ more than any human no matter who that one is – father, mother, son, daughter. In fact this was one of the points in a previous article you wrote discussing accepting our torture stake, an article that I found immensely encouraging and faith strengthening. I believe that this recent article contradicts the scriptural reasoning you used in that article.
Under the heading, ‘Walking the Tightrope’ you again make a statement about a deadline relating to REV 18:4. Of course there is a deadline. Jehovah knows when that deadline will be. But your comments could lead a reader to believe that they should wait for a ‘line in the sand’ to appear when the scripture says nothing about a ‘line in the sand’. The scripture simply says, “Get out of her my people.” It does not specify a time. What has led you to believe that some sort of event or ‘line in the sand’ will appear? I can see no scriptural backing for such an assumption. Having said that I am very open to further clarification on that matter.
The next subheading ‘Avoiding a bad influence’ quotes from MARK 9:38-41. You refer to this scripture to teach us a principle but what is the principle? The man spoken of here was expelling demons by means of Jesus’ name. This man was expressing faith in Jesus. Of course he was approved by our Lord! The Pharisees did preaching too as indicated by MATT 23:15 but did Jesus approve of them? Of course not. They were making proselytes and steering them to Gehenna. Isn’t that what Jehovah’s Witnesses are doing? If people come into the organisation, will that bring them to Christ? No. It places them on the broad road to destruction.
You go on to write, “It is not who you associate with that ensures your reward, but who you side with – who you support.” Based on this statement why would the call ever go out to “Get out of Babylon the Great”? If Jehovah knows our heart and doesn’t care about who we associate with then why would we need to take action? Why couldn’t we just stay in Babylon the Great and trust that Jehovah could see our heart? Why would Jehovah expect an action?
Whilst I can understand your sentiment of wanting to help others, then why restrict yourself to going to Jehovah’s Witness meetings? Surely, there must be sheep in other religions too? Why not go to Catholic meetings and comment or to Pentecostal meetings and comment? For that matter, why not go to a Buddhist temple and comment?
In regard to the subheading ‘Dealing with Wolves’ you offer some suggestions. One of the suggestions that struck me was the following. You suggested saying to the elders, “I believe he (Jesus) has appointed a faithful and discreet slave. That slave feeds the domestics with truth.” I was so surprised by this suggestion. The faithful and discreet slave was an illustration! The slave was instructed to feed the domestics not with truth but with food. It’s like saying that the five discreet virgins filled their lamps with truth. No. They filled their lamps with oil. It’s just an illustration. It’s an illustration of obedience. There is no ‘faithful and discreet slave’ as an entity, anymore than the man standing in the field is an entity or a woman grinding at the hand mill. MATT 24:40,41. When reading MATT 24 and 25 you can find 7 illustrations all pretty much describing the same thing - Are you going to be found good or bad?
1. Noah’s day – you were either in the ark or not
2. Will you be a man taken in the field or abandoned?
3. Will you be a woman at the hand mill taken or abandoned?
4. Will you be a faithful and discreet slave or an evil slave?
5. Will you prove to be a faithful virgin or a foolish one?
6. Will you be an industrious slave or a sluggish one?
7. Will you be a sheep or a goat?
Why select one illustration out of them all and make something greater than what is there? The illustration of the faithful and discreet slave could have been just as effective if the slave was given a different job. For example, Jesus could have said, “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his vineyard to bring in the fruits at the right time?” The point was that the faithful and discreet slave did what the master appointed him to do just like those slaves who made money with the talents. The organisation has conditioned its members to believe that the faithful and discreet slave scripture was a prophecy not a parable. The point is not related to giving others truth. It’s obedience.
Lastly, in regard to meeting with the elders, my husband and I approached the elders with our concerns in July 2015 (pedophilia issues, UN and corruption surrounding Kingdom Hall takeovers) Their response was to ignore the evidence and simply try and silence us. To this end they asked us to a judicial hearing wherein which we were asked all the questions you indicate would be asked. We simply replied, “We are not here to discuss our thoughts on these matters.” They kept asking and we kept replying similarly. Finally we produced Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony from the Royal Commission where he stated that anyone is free to leave the organisation without punishment. We asked them, “Is what Geoffrey Jackson said true?” They, of course, were forced to say, “Yes.” We said, “Well that is what we want to do. We want to leave.” We produced the actual transcript where Geoffrey Jackson’s words were written verbatim. We succeeded in leaving without being disfellowshipped and we have not formally disassociated ourselves. Nonetheless a slanderous marking talk was given where we were painted as black as possible to the congregation (a friend gave us a recording of the talk.) Our families have all disowned us despite all the evidence we have presented to them of the corruption. And despite our decades of faithful service including a combined 35 years of pioneering and substitute circuit work, including serving where the need is greater in many congregations around Australia, only one former bible student has contacted us. How is this love? If there was love, wouldn’t someone want to contact us and try and ‘save’ us?
We are thrilled with what we are learning from the scriptures and have greatly appreciated your wonderful expressions of faith in previous articles but this latest article was disappointing and I hope that my thoughts may move you to reconsider how you write your articles. You wouldn’t want to be influencing others to follow a wrong course. That being said, please feel free to correct anything I’ve written if you feel that it is not sound as I too need to ensure my words can stand up to scriptural scrutiny.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-09 09:03:41

  Welcome to our little online community, Judith. I look forward to your contributions* to the forum.
  You have raised many points, which I shall do my best to address.
  

  “I had no idea though that you were still associating with the organisation Meleti! How strange?!”
  The process you have gone through, and likely are still going through to some degree, is very traumatic. It is well known to all of us here.* Each of us handles it differently. For some, it seems a clean break is the only way to honor God. Having taken this determination at great personal cost,* it may be hard for us to see how others cannot share our view. If we feel that the course we are have taken is the only right course, it is easy for us to judge others who choose another path. Conversely, when we see others following a different path, we may feel that own decision is being called into question.
  Is not such a position familiar to us? Is this not the worldview of Jehovah’s Witnesses? I’m not being critical. In fact, I can empathize. As I look back on some of my earlier articles, I realize how much I was still being influenced by the JW mindset of seeing everything as black or white. One does not remove 60 years of indoctrination from one’s mind by simply clicking the Delete button. Often, we do not even aware that our views are still being influenced by the thought processes implanted from years of studying the WT publications.
  It is true that there are blacks and whites, rights and wrongs – absolutes. However, I’ve come to see there are a lot fewer than I would have previously thought. Many of the things I saw as black or white, I have not come to see as grey. This is all part of the freedom which the truth imparts. (John 8:31, 32)
  It may seem that the only way to obey God is to get completely out of any form of false religion, breaking all ties. That is definitely the JW mindset, is it not? But is it this scriptural mindset?
  Paul took advantage of his Jewish heritage to reach the Jews in each town and city he visited – something his Gentile brothers could not do. Paul continued to associate with Jews and regularly attended the synagogue. He used the synagogue as a platform for preaching, but he could not simply walk in and start preaching. He had to wait his turn, as was the practice. He had to sit and listen as part of the audience. (Acts 13:14; 14:1; 17:10; 18:4, 17; 19:8)
  He even engaged in a Jewish custom of ceremonial cleansing in an effort to further the work in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, this did not work out as planned. (Acts 21:26)
  The principle that changes the JW black to grey can be found at 1 Corinthians 9:
  “For, though I am free from all persons, I have made myself the slave to all, that I may gain the most persons. 20 And so to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, that I might gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, that I might gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, that I might by all means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with [others].” (1Co 9:19-23)
  ANTONINVS has made some excellent points in his comments, but I think the one that stands out most in my mind relates to our motivation being what really counts. Paul’s motivation was to “do all things for the sake of the good news.” His goal was that “by all means [he might] save some.”
  I do not continue to associate because I wish to be taught by the Governing Body or local elders, anymore than Paul wished to be taught by the leaders of the Jewish synagogues that he attended. But attending allows me access that I would not otherwise have to those who are still in the state I was in five years ago. (I wish I enjoyed the freedom Paul had, being able to actually preach in the Kingdom Hall, but alas we are working as if under ban.) At times it can be excruciating listening to the things that are taught from the platform, but I take it as a small sacrifice if by so doing I can have continued access to those who might yet be saved. That is my view, but it should not be taken as a rule. Each one must make his own determination following the principles in the Bible that relate, such as (to name only one) 1Co 9:19-23.
  The observation regarding my words relating to Revelation 18:4 are well taken. Perhaps I should have been more circumspect, specifying that I was only expressing an opinion. The fact is, those words are part of the prophecy spelled out in symbolic terms. No one can speak categorically as to precisely how that prophecy will be fulfilled. Given that, I think you will agree that while I may be wrong in stating that the absolute requirement to “get out of her” is future, your thought that it is present and now is also an opinion.
  Consider this: What does it mean to get out of her? Does that mean to break off all contact and association? I believe it does. Therefore, given the example Paul set, I view this requirement as something for the future. However, that is my opinion. If others feel differently, then they should act accordingly. I will not judge them, but ask only that they not judge me.
  The fact is that I’m certainly no more part of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses than Paul was a part of the Jewish system of things with its synagogues. Perhaps the Jews who were Christians in Jerusalem followed Paul’s example and also used the synagogues – as did Jesus – for their preaching work, but there did come a time in 66 C.E. when physical separation was required for salvation. If the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ understanding is correct – and I’m not saying it is – then the governments will turn on all religions and destroy them. If so, then I am confident that the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be given a pass.
  At such a point, our salvation will depend on complete and absolute separation from all forms of organized religion.
  On the question of the faithful and discreet slave, I have written extensively on this forum. (See the category Identifying the Slave for all articles) My understanding is that the faithful and discreet slave applies to all Christians, not some oversight class. I can see how by not clarifying this point in my article it would be easy for someone coming from a JW background to draw the wrong conclusion.
  The problem in writing about Bible subjects – or any subject for that matter – is that if one stops to explain in detail the meaning of each term, the flow of the article bogs down. You will notice at the beginning of this comment, I introduced a few asterisks. It would be very easy for someone to misconstrue what I said at the points marked by each *.
  For example, at the first one, was I referring to financial contributions, or rather your knowledge and experience? At the second, should I have added a caveat to explain that "all of us" doesn't include every last man, woman and child, since some who associate with the forum have never been Jehovah’s Witnesses? At the third, should I have clarified what type of cost: financial, emotional, familial?
  If I continued this process, the comment would’ve been peppered with asterisks.
  It is fine to question the things any of us write. I certainly do not place myself above examination. None of the contributors to this site, whether authors are commenters, has a right to place him or herself above examination. However – and this is a rule that I apply to myself as much as to everyone else, for I have failed in this regard as well – I would ask that we apply this principle:
  “[Love] bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” (1Co 13:7)
  In particular, the phrase “believes all things” is applicable here. Let us strive to give each other the benefit of the doubt. If there are two or more ways to view a statement, let us assume the more charitable view is what the writer meant.
  Finally, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they are the only true Christians. All the rest are false Christians. They are not really Christians at all.
  However, it this the view expressed by our Lord?
  In the parable of the faithful slave recorded at Luke 12:41-48, Jesus is appointing a slave. Obviously this is a Christian slave. However upon his arrival, four types of slaves a manifest.
  1) A faithful one.
  2) A wicked one.
  3) One who knowing disobeyed.
  4) One who unknowing disobeyed
  One gets rewarded, the second gets cast out, but the third and fourth while punished in varying degrees appear to remain in the household. How this will actually be applied is anyone’s guess at this point. But the fact is that when Jesus comes to judge, he is judging those who still claim to be Christian. So who are we at this point to judge another, be he Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness. The judgment is not on organizations but on individuals and only the Lord knows the heart of the individual.
  I’ve tried to explain my view here without being arbitrary. I hope I have succeeded. Your viewpoint may differ, but that is okay. I’ve come to realize that there are many things that Christians can differ on while still remaining brothers and sisters loyal to Jesus. There are of course some things which are deal breakers, so to speak; but those are clearly defined in the Bible.
  Again, welcome to the forum.

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-09 17:15:13

    Hello Meleti,
    I did not expect to wake up and read responses straight away. How nice of everyone to comment. Thank you for taking the time to write the things you have. Even whilst in the organisation, I wondered about the apostle Paul's compliance with the local elders in Jerusalem and the fulfilling of the vow. I thought, "Why would Paul preach everywhere about the law being fulfilled and the introduction of the Christian era and then return and participate in this event?" The thought that came to me was this - the things included in the law were not wrong in themselves. It was not wrong to vow to Jehovah. It was not wrong to wash your hands up to the elbows as was apparently the practice. It was not wrong to circumcise your baby etc. What was wrong was teaching others that these things were compulsory. When you are in the organisation you are taught that house-to-house preaching is compulsory for salvation. It's not wrong for us, if we feel so inclined, to go door to door but ..... it is wrong to stipulate this activity as compulsory for salvation. In this respect, Paul was not promoting the old Jewish ways over Christianity. What he was involved in was not wrong. It would have been wrong if Paul had gone around preaching that people MUST adhere to the law for salvation. No. The law was no longer compulsory but, after such a long life of adherence, no doubt many first century Jewish Christians still wanted to follow some of these traditions. That was not wrong. But once brothers from Jerusalem went up to Antioch and starting saying that circumcision was vital for salvation, that was wrong.
    I would like to assure you that I most definitely believe there are good hearted people in other religions. That's why from this point on in my life I am not restricting myself to focusing on JW's in my preaching. Why just focus on Witnesses? I am convinced that Jesus as our leader along with the holy angels in his command will lead us to others as happened in the first century. Only yesterday I had a wonderful experience with a sister in the neighbouring congregation that I met whilst shopping. We ended up having coffee and we're going to keep in contact as she wants to learn more about why we left. She has a friend who has left the 7th day Adventist Church so I'd like to meet her too. And I am still calling on one of my return visits. It was such a surprise to find out that she left the Catholic Church about 10 years ago for reasons of conscience. It was so humbling to know that she'd made her stand years before me! There are many out there who love truth. How encouraging!
    I can honestly say that my heart is filled with joy with the new understanding that Jehovah is not just my God but he is my FATHER! I am so keen to teach others this beautiful fact and help them to draw close to him.
    Thank you for some of the wonderful articles you have written especially the ones about sonship. They are appreciated.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-09 18:32:39

      Thank you for this encouraging comment, Judith. I look forward to many more.
      Your brother in Christ,
      Meleti

• Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-09 14:04:33

  Welcome Judith,
  In that your comments were addressed to statements in Meleti's article and he has responded (very adequately in my opinion), I encourage each to decide for themselves which view expresses greater:
  Love (Prov 10:12)
  Patience (Eph 4:2)
  Goodness (Heb 13:16)
  Christ himself set the ultimate pattern for Christians today. What is the second most important command? "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Mark 12:31)
  Even in an extreme situation what did Christ command? That we "love (agape) our enemies and do good to them. (Luke 6:35)
  We clearly see that in dealings with any human, be they a brother, our neighbor, our enemy.... love should prevail, not angry emotion, bitterness, resentment, or retaliation.
  Why some in our community here at BP choose to remain in association with JW's is for them to decide, not me, not you, not anyone here at BP.
  James 4:12 says:
  "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you, who are you to judge your NEIGHBOR?"
  Note how James makes the distinct connection to the second greatest commandment given by our Lord. If we love our NEIGHBOR, would we judge him?
  Of course we would not judge our brothers. Perhaps you and your husband no longer view your former JW friends as brothers and sisters? It appears this is the case. Perhaps you feel you now have license to judge them, and to judge anyone who chooses to associate with them?
  I'm sorry my sister, but this is wrong thinking. Even if you (and your husband) choose to not consider JWs as brothers and sisters any longer, you are still required to obey the second greatest command of our Lord Jesus. You must love your former JW friends as your NEIGHBOR. Do you? Do you love them as your own self?
  Perhaps the way you were treated and made to feel judged as you "came out" has caused you to develop anger and bitterness. Many of us have to some lesser or greater degree gone through exactly what you and your husband have been through. It is human nature to want to retaliate, to get back. Perhaps you're taking your frustration out on Meleti and others here?
  Perhaps you have moments where you view the elders who denigrated you in public as enemies? Again, if we are to follow the Christ, how must we feel toward these men? Christ said love and do good even to those who we may consider our enemies. Even your elders.
  We here at BP judge the false teachings and traditions of men that are currently taught in Jehovah's Witnesses. We do not judge the individuals (albeit it remains a work in progress). If Saul's heart could be changed, is it not possible that even a GB member or other high ranking elder could experience a change before our Master arrives?
  The wheat-like and the weed-like Christians have been growing together and associating for centuries. Only when our Master arrives and collects the wheat will we confirm who are the wheat...... and who are the weeds. Before his arrival, it would be unwise for any to judge who are weeds. Yes, judge teachings, judge actions, but not individuals.
  Until the Master arrives, we need faith, hope and love. The greatest of these is love.
  Phileo,
  Sopater

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-09 16:45:08

    Hello Sopater,
    Thank you so much for replying. That's kind of you. I never expected anyone to even read my comment except Meleti. I have never commented before so was unaware of how it all works. I would like to assure you that I have absolutely no bitterness or anger toward anyone. I only have love. Love firstly for Jehovah and his Christ and then secondly for my neighbour.
    It's funny you know but I usually don't write. My reason for steering away from writing is that what you write can be interpreted different ways. I much prefer talking in person. Then people can see my facial expressions and feel my sincerity. The response you have written has convinced me of the wisdom of my usual choice. What you have interpreted could not be further from the truth about my feelings and motivations. I LOVE people! It is my love for them that moved me to respond to Meleti's comments since I felt that others may be influenced to think that REV 18:4 has a set timeframe amongst other things written. I love all those in the organisation. How could I be a true Christian if I didn't have love?! Christ died for all men but sadly no one in the organisation including my family wants to hear anything at all. My approach to them was kind and loving and sincere. I still hope, as the apostle Paul did, that these ones will 'see the light' in due time. If they do, they know that we will be there to support them.
    It's unlikely that I'll comment again but that's ok. I have had the most wonderful experiences locally with some of my return visits and others. I am heading to one of my old return visits this morning for a bible discussion and then lunch. Can't wait! I have found that I can witness so much more easily now. I say to people, "I am a Christian. I am not associated with any organisation." And the response is amazing! The barriers fall and I can tell them the good news! The real good news about the Christ! I'm going to stick to face-to-face communications from now on so on that level thank you for helping me see the wisdom of doing so. :)

    • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-10 06:30:44

      Hi Judith, I hope you had a delicious lunch and equal conversation.?

      • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 05:40:48

        Ha! Hi Willy! Thank you so much.! We did have a delicious lunch (barbeque prawns and salad. Yum!) and a wonderful spiritual conversation. It's uplifting to still have the opportunity to talk to others straight from God's Word and the bonus is ...... you don't have to worry about counting time!!! I love that!!! I love the fact that my motive is completely pure rather than thinking, "This time I spent will help towards a good month's total hours." It really is a nice feeling. :)

    • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-10 10:07:16

      Judith,
      Thank you for replying. I'm very happy to know that you still love the JW community. What made me wonder was your statement:
      "If people come into the organisation, will that bring them to Christ? No. It places them on the broad road to destruction."
      My sister, there are many who learned about Christ and Christian living through the organization, including Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap. Many (if not most) of us here at BP spent our lifetime learning about Christ and Christian living through our association with the organization. Did we have all the dots connected? No.
      Given access to the internet, books, and the Royal Commission, is it not likely that thousands (if not tens of thousands) are currently in their awakening process, just as you were some months ago? Each having learned about Christ and Christian principles through the organization?
      Could we then credit the organization for teaching the basics, the elementary things of God's Word and Christian living? For example, a person learns who God is, what his holy spirit is, what the soul is, what death is, what the ransom is? And do they not learn a regimen of modest Christian living, abandoning practices such as the use of recreational drugs, smoking, fornication, adultery, idolatry, stealing, lying, cheating, celebration of pagan holidays and the list could go on.
      I am in no way recommending that a person who wants to come to the Christ learn the elementary things through JW. I am merely saying that for those of us who did, I believe we have an advantage. Since my awakening, as far as lifestyle is concerned, nothing has changed in my life. What has changed is my understanding, my relationship with Christ and my Father, my appreciation for his Word and truth.
      There are 8 million (not counting those df'd, da'd, inactive, former bible studies) out there that have learned the basics, needing certain dots connected. There are 20 million attending the memorial, not counting those who have had some association in the past. Do not those in the awakening process as you were represent a "ripe" field for harvesting?
      Another statement that gave me pause, you said:
      "Our families have all disowned us despite all the evidence we have presented to them of the corruption."
      Corruption is defined as: dishonesty, double-dealing, fraud, misconduct, crime, extortion, profiteering, crookedness, slease.
      My sister, I have attended my entire life, served as an elder half of that time, have had close friends at Bethel and visited often, personally met the original GB, but have never personally witnessed any "corruption." Have I witnessed unscrupulous individuals within a congregation from time to time that fit that description. Of course.
      I do not recall that Ray Franz or Ed Dunlap ever used such a word in describing the organization. I do recall Ray stating that he felt that leadership were "victims of victims." Acting proud, arrogant, cowardly, hypocritically, refusing change traditions (JW teachings they know are unscriptural) for fear of losing control. Fear of rescinding teachings that cause harm for fear of liability for the organization. Leadership is certainly guilty of all these things.
      The No Blood doctrine is yet to become front and center (though I believe it will soon) and the two witness rule which is front and center, are major issues that could have grave financial consequences for the organization.
      Instead of choosing the word "corruption", I would have said: "misapplication of scripture has facilitated the abuse of many JW children and allowed perpetrators to not be brought to justice, bringing grave consequences of liability to the organization."
      Since the video of G Jackson's testimony has been made public, I have discreetly sent the link to a number of elders (including our CO). At this moment nearly 140,000 have viewed the video. It is a powerful tool. It is not "apostate." It is public knowledge. They have a right to know.
      Thank you my sister and we look forward to enjoying more of your insightful comments.
      Phileo,
      Sopater

      • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-10 12:50:56

        A fine post, Sopater.
        I would strongly suggest a synopsis of this post be placed on the home page in order that visiting JWs may see that Beroean Pickets is following Christ's example. He exposed the wrong but kept the good in his religion.
        Jehovah's Witnesses are a Judeo Christian sect which holds within itself the best of Biblical teachings and the worst of conservative Christian fundamentalism. They are the 21st century Christian equivalent of first century Judaism.
        When Christ returns he will feel very much at home in the Witnesses, like old home week.
        Those of us who are "awake" and yet remain must be “cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves", endeavoring to encourage brotherly love among the friends while under the radar of "blind guides". Always being careful not to stumble spiritual "little ones" by giving them food they are not ready to digest.
        Christ's love conquered religious oppression and hypocrisy. Let our love for neighbor and brother shine a light much greater than any "new light" we are restrained from offering in the congregation, for now at least.
        For decades Christ lived with, and experienced, the very same problems he would later publicly expose in his ministry. He surely loved his Father and his neighbor during those years of public silence but he waited for his time to come. This is where those of us awake, but remaining, find ourselves today.
        Trust in God, trust in God's Son.
        Joshua

        • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-10 15:39:45

          Joshua,
          Thank you my brother and welcome.
          Looking forward to many insightful posts.
          Sopater

      • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 06:24:00

        Hello Sopater,
        I'm so pleased that you can sense my love for others. It is my love for others that moves me to speak up.
        I couldn't agree with you more about the advantages of being brought up as a Witness. I have no regrets about the moral values I have learned and I have come to know and love Jehovah and become adept at using God's Word. All these things form an excellent basis for learning about the Christ. However, the word 'corruption' as described in your comment is perfect for the organisation! The words you quote are:
        dishonesty, double-dealing, fraud, misconduct, crime, extortion, profiteering, crookedness, slease
        I'm guessing that you must not know about the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall scandal. Please find documents about this matter at the following website: http://www.documentsrecords.com I believe that each word describing corruption is suitable - sad and shocking but true. ?
        (I'm glad we're friends now by the way. ?)

        • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-11 12:08:53

          Judith,
          Yes we are certainly friends.
          I've known about the Menlo Park ordeal since it hit the internet. Again, a very isolated case involving rogue elders. There are other cases I'm sure.
          My statement is that at an official level, the unscriptural teachings that now plague JW didn't come from corrupt men. Nor is the fact that the current group has been forced to defend them (for a variety of reasons) evidence of any corruption.
          Here's a question:
          What do you call a group of men who know certain teaching are wrong. including those that cause harm, even death, but refuse to change for fear of the fallout? Fallout such as loss of credibility, legal ramifications, losing their comfortable lifestyle and rock star status?
          What do we call a group of men like that? Let me start with:
          Cowardly prideful, self-serving, arrogant, self-righteous, thinking more than they should of themselves, shortsighted, paranoid, delusional (there are more words but these suffice) and finally, abusers of absolute power.
          If the shoe fits.......
          Sopater

          • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 18:26:22

            Oh Sopater! You know about Menlo Park but do not see it as corruption?! Wow! That's hard to process. It's not a case of rogue elders. It comes straight from the top! I can only assume that you did not read through the documents at the website I sent the link to.
            Just in case someone else is reading this, please go to http://www.documentsrecords.com and read what the society lawyers say on page 4 of the court transcript involving the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall illegal takeover. I have thoroughly researched the scandal and was shocked to the core by the wickedness and corruption that has taken place. I have no hesitation using that term . Please do not accept my word for it, be like the Beroeans and research, research, research yourselves dear brothers and sisters!
            Just on a lighter note Sopater. ? You say that Menlo Park is a 'very isolated case' and then you immediately say, "There are other cases I'm sure." Isn't that a contradiction? It's either a very isolated case or one of a few. It can't be both. ?
            On a more serious note again, I can see that your love for the truths we all gained from the organisation makes you believe that the organisation has goodness. But doesn't Paul write that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light. It's so clever of Satan. He creates a whole array of so-called Christian persuasions and injects some truths in them all. This is brilliant! This creates a feeling of trust of the source. If enough truths are promulgated then when something new comes along with what seems to be sound scriptural backing, we tend to believe it without intensive meditation and consideration. This is exactly what I am seeing, now that I am learning that other so-called Christian groups have a more accurate viewpoint of Christ than we did. Others have an accurate view of partaking of the emblems. It doesn't matter how much truth a group teaches. If there is ANY poison mixed in, it will still kill you. That's the beauty of leaving and enjoying feeding at Jehovah's table of unadulterated food! It's wonderful! I don't even bother reading the WT studies anymore - there's too much good food to learn straight from God's Word. I am bursting with joy at the understanding of scriptures that once were confusing to me. I know it is the holy spirit helping me and the others I associate with. It's not an organisation, it's not a particular man or woman or group of men and women. It's the holy spirit.
            Ha! I can't believe that I wrote so much. I think you can tell that I like sharing. ? I think I might have to start a blog or something since I really feel like standing on a mountain and calling out with the new truths I've found.
            Have a lovely day! ?

            • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-12 05:34:39

              Thank you for sharing your story Judith, isn't it an amazing feeling to be a child of Jehovah, which Jesus Christ through his death made possible ! Have a Wonderful evening too ?

              • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-12 06:22:28

                Hello Willy. Yes! I cannot tell you how difficult it was at first to accept the truth of this. I honestly felt like crawling under my bed and hiding such was my feeling of unworthiness. All my life I longed to be a son of God. I used to pray to Jehovah and say, "I am so much looking forward to being perfect in the new system and reflecting your qualities perfectly." This was what I looked forward to more than anything. I thought though that this was hundreds of years away. Admittedly I had always wondered why Jesus' blood facilitated the 144,000 being declared righteous whereas we had to go through a whole education process to achieve the same standing. It didn't make sense but nonetheless, I accepted that and was extremely grateful to have the hope of being declared righteous in due time. Then when I first discovered that the scriptures we had been taught about the two groups did not stand up to scrutiny whereas there were HEAPS of scriptures indicating that all those who accept the invitation can be viewed as sons of God, I was stunned!!! I truly was! I felt guilty even THINKING that I could be one of them, such is the power of the organisation's teachings. I comforted myself by thinking that I could stand at the back of the group inconspicuously when we're all together in heaven and just observe, just being happy to be there. It was such a HUGE adjustment in thought. Even now as I write to you, I can hardly believe the privilege that is given to us for a few short years of faithfulness, most of which I've spent in an unclean organisation. What gratitude we can have! What a pearl of great value! And then I found this lovely scripture in 2 COR 6:17,18. In this scripture it says, "and you will be sons and daughters to me." A daughter!!! That is so lovely as a sister. I always longed for sonship which is the term used extensively throughout the scriptures and is appropriate but when I read the word 'daughter' I just cried. How kind and what a gift to we sisters here on earth. Since we will be neither male nor female in heaven, this scripture personalises Jehovah's promise to us right now while we're on earth. He is our loving Father! And after having my own earthly father whom I have loved so much call me poison just over two weeks ago, I have appreciated this beautiful loving scripture from my heavenly Father more than ever. Thank you for writing to me. I really appreciate it. ?

                • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-12 07:13:04

                  Hi JUdith, I thought of the words in Psalms 27:10 and what a great comfort they are.
                  Love from your sister in Christ

                  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-12 15:55:55

                    Willy! I thought you were a brother! How funny is that? ? You're my SISTER! It's so nice to know that. Judith is my real name. (It feels SO WONDERFUL to feel free to use my real name. I am not suggesting that anyone else not using their real name here is a bad thing, it's just that I feel so free and happy that I don't have to be clandestine about my true identity.) Thank you so much for such a loving and caring message. I feel a special joy with the scripture you have given me because I quoted this scripture to my father myself in one of our final conversations less than a month ago. I did not do so in an antagonist way but with respect. I explained that I understood he was rejecting me but that I had faith that my wonderful heavenly Father would take me up. Both my mother and father were unmoved and I could tell that they were actually relieved that they didn't have to speak to me anymore. I know that I prick their conscience. I told them that I thought this way and they were silent. I told them, "You are the very ones who taught me to love Jehovah and to always follow my bible-trained conscience and yet now you are rejecting me for doing so." But Willy, as you say, the amazing feeling of being adopted as a daughter of Jehovah himself is a pearl of such great value that any pain has disappeared and complete joy has replaced it! Thank you so much for your message. I truly appreciate it. Maybe this is the start of the fulfilment of MARK 10:29,30 for us. What a lovely thought. ?

            • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-12 06:45:36

              Judith,
              I haven't the time to carefully read through every page of the Menlo Park transcripts, but I feel I have a fairly good grasp of what happened there.
              Simply put, the body of elders in the title holding congregation were removed. Three of these elders were officers of the corporation that owned the KH asset.
              My first question would be, why was the entire body removed? This is extremely rare. There was obviously some issue. So it appears this dispute resulted from the elder body being deleted, which I equate to PRIDE.
              Cobb (the plaintiff in the lawsuit) didn't like being deleted as an elder, so in response he refused to resign as an officer in the corporation that owned the KH. To circumvent this problem, the branch simply formed a new corporation and appointed new officers
              What is so corrupt about this? If there is any corruption, I would have to view the rogue elder and his attorney more in this category.
              As I stated earlier, I view this as case of a rogue elder who acted illegally and in bad faith, not in fiduciary interests of the congregation. That is shameful.
              At the end of the day, the judge saw his actions as illegal. Since you stated that you have "thoroughly researched the scandal and was shocked to the core by the wickedness and corruption that has taken place", you will no doubt recall page 147 of the court transcripts and the Judge's comments:
              "I understand what you are arguing. You are arguing these [the new corporation by-laws] were not in effect at the time, but I am interested in what's happening now. You are not eligible to serve any more. You have been removed. And by the fact that you were removed to me is -- and no longer eligible is important under the meaning of these bylaws and articles of incorporation. So, based upon those grounds I am going to dismiss the case, as I said, under both section 5617 of the Financial -- 5617 of the Corporations Code, as well as the First Amendment of the United States."
              My sister, do you view the Judge corrupt and wicked? Do you view the Judge's decision as corrupt and wicked? Then what do you view as corrupt and wicked?
              The deleted elder filed the lawsuit to cause trouble. And when the case was dismissed, his angry reaction (and only recourse) was to put the story on the internet on ex-JW websites.
              To respond to your "on a more serious note" comments, you imply that what I (and others) may see as goodness in the organization is actually Satan transforming himself into an angel of light.
              May I ask how you viewed yourself (and your husband) before your awakening began? In looking back at you as yourself, do you view that when you were in association with the organization you practiced "goodness" as a human being? Or not?
              If you answer yes, then how do you view those who are presently just as you were before your awakening? Are they any different than you were?
              Your brother,
              Sopater

              • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-12 07:10:27

                Judith,
                If I may ask, do you realize that when you infer that there is no goodness in the organization of JW, your assessment must include all that associate?
                For what remains of the organization if you separate the rank and file members? A few thousand at Bethel?
                Or is it you believe that only those at Bethel are corrupt and wicked? If this is the case, why would you take issue with any who choose to continue to associate with rank and file members in their congregation?
                Sopater

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-12 07:31:38

                To judge someone as bad, is to pass judgment which belongs in the hands of our Lord. To judge someone as good is also to pass judgment which belongs in the hands of our Lord.
                We can and should judge actions however so that we can avoid being deceived. The question is, Why did the Organization sell the kingdom hall? Did the hall belong to the congregation or the Organization? Legally, the congregation. If the congregation didn't want to sell, and if the Organization removed all the elders and intimidated those who opposed the sale so that it could take possession and sell the hall against the wishes of the congregation, that is the definition of racketeering.
                I was hoping this would have been resolved in the courts, but it is my understanding the case has been dropped. Can anyone confirm this?

                • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-12 08:18:25

                  Yes, Meleti, the case was not just dropped, it was dismissed having no merit.
                  I completely agree the KH belonged to the congregation. So it appears the vote of the majority of members in the congregation was to not support the elder body.
                  It is not for a body to decide independent of the majority vote of the congregation. The three officers had a fiduciary duty to act in accordance with the wishes of the majority of members. That is law. In fact, to act otherwise is actually illegal.
                  I'm not an attorney, but I feel 100% certain that if the majority of the congregation opposed the sale of the property in support of the elder body, ALL of the elders (former) would have been named as plaintiffs in the suit, and the congregation would have been called in as witnesses. If this happened, I'm 100% certain they could have blocked any sale.
                  We see the lawsuit had just one rogue (former) elder acting independently. No other elders were plaintiffs. There were no witnesses from the congregation. On this basis, the Judge found the case without merit and had no legal recourse but to dismiss.
                  If what happened was in fact "racketeering" I feel confident the Judge would have recognized it as such and pursued the WT for conducting illegal activity. Instead, she dismisses the case because it is without merit.
                  While I feel it highly unethical and morally wrong for the Branch to maneuver to force the sale or take title to any KH, legally speaking, the congregation members choose to reject or approve. If the members vote for the sale, from a legal standpoint they have that right,
                  The sale is not illegal, corrupt, fraudulent, or racketeering. And, if the congregation chooses to give the proceeds to the Branch, they have the legal right to do so.
                  It is unethical and morally wrong. And these men will answer for their errorr.
                  But it is not illegal.
                  Sopater

                  • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-12 09:13:41

                    Something else I think is relevant in this case:
                    The illegal activities alleged in the suit were:
                    Conspiracy, Conspiracy to Commit Fraud, Collusion, Fraud, Extortion, Defamation, Mail and Wire Fraud, Religious Fraud.
                    It so happens the Judge disagreed on every count. I have confidence that of the Judge found any to be true, it would have been pursued. Moreover, if the Judge was in error, a motion could have been that the judgment was in error, and the case moved to another court. It must not have been even close. The trial attorney was likely working on a contingency, and when dismissed, he abandoned ship.
                    I have to believe the Judge viewed all the evidence fairly. If an official of the court has ruled on this, until further evidence is brought to the court, I agree with the Judge.
                    If coercion and pressure was put on the congregation to sell against their wishes, this is contemptible and reprehensible.
                    The only reliable source to confirm the extent of coercion would be to census those members today, and see where they stand. If they express no issue with the way things were handled, (although privately they may have misgivings), at the end of the day, we can only go by what they say, not by what we think they feel.
                    That's just my 2 cents.
                    Sopater

                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-12 09:42:35

                    Thanks for that clarification, Sopater.
                    Without merit doesn't mean no wrongdoing occurred, however. Neither side is cleared of wrongdoing. I know we are of one mind on that.
                    Not everyone understands what racketeering is, so to explain, the idea behind racketeering is that the racketeer uses intimidation tactics to force his victim to do his will. The victims fear the consequences of not giving in to his wishes.
                    Imagine a protection racket. Dozens are coerced into turning over their money to mobsters. The prosecutor brings a case, but at the moment of truth, the victims all decline to bear witness for fear of their lives. The case would be dismissed for lack of merit, but wrongdoing still occurred.
                    No one has a 100% success rate. Yet, have any of us ever heard a congregation not give a unanimous (or near unanimous) vote for any action suggested by the powers that be. If someone raises his hand in objection, that person is running the risk of being viewed as a rebel, and often will be. If he persists in objecting, no matter the validity of his case, he will face disciplinary action.
                    The resolution process in our organization is an empty ritual, a proforma activity used to ensure that legal "I"s are dotted and the "T"s are crossed. Yet to a judge, such as the one in the Menlo case, it is legally binding.
                    If a congregation ever developed the intestinal fortitude to stand up against what they believed was a bad decision, such as the sale of a hall, the elder body would be removed, and the congregation disbanded and split up among neighboring congregations.
                    So legally, the case was without merit, but I don't see that as an exoneration of the RBC brothers nor the Powers That Be. It could be the case that the congregation really did want to sell the hall. In that case, the brothers in question acted incorrectly. Christ knows the heart.
                    That is why I do not feel we can excuse the actions of the Organization. We don't know there motive. So whether they acted righteously or not, I lack the firsthand knowledge to know.
                    But while one case may be difficult to determine, over time with many cases a pattern emerges. It has to otherwise Jesus' exhortation to know such men by their fruits would have no meaning.
                    There was a time when a congregation built a hall with its own funds and it was theirs. Now the Organization presumes to own all halls and tells the congregations what to do with them. I am hearing over and over from different parts of the world situations were congregations have loyally sent in building funds in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for planned and needed construction, only to be told that no building will take place, or that all halls are to be sold and a larger centralized hall will take their place.
                    Remember when the book study arrangement was cancelled? The reason given was so as not to burden the brothers with additional travel and fuel costs, even though that meeting was usually the closest one we had to go to. Now, that consideration has gone with the wind. Brothers are being required to travel significantly longer distances to get to the centralized hall, adding a lot to their monthly fuel bill and burdening them with the loss of precious time. But they have no say in it, because following the Menlo case, the RBCs were disbanded, and the LDC under the strict control of the branch took over. That combined with the "cancellation" of all loans gave the Society stronger legal grounds to consider all properties as their own possession.
                    Lett asked back in May, 'Would a bank cancel a mortgage?'
                    It would, if it then got the deed to the property, kept the money already paid, had the home owner sign over his life savings, and got the home owner to make ongoing "voluntary" contributions.
                    What would a bank do in such a case. Well, it would sell any property that had significantly increased in value, take the profit and use the rest to build a new property for the client to live in. The client would have no say as to whether or not he wanted to live in that building in that neighborhood. He would, however, still be expected to continue his monthly "voluntary" donations, in recognition that everything the bank was doing was for his own good.
                    Forgive the rant, but we all need the occasional release of the safety value.

                    • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-12 11:19:19

                      I am in complete agreement with everything you've said.
                      I don't know all the particulars, but we do know that "peer" pressure is a powerful tool used by the GB, you are a black sheep and trouble maker if you don't "vote" with the pack.
                      Here's an interesting detail: In the LDC meeting we had a year ago, it was implied that the LDC reps and CO's would be making certain title paperwork was updated to reflect the WTBTS as title holder.
                      To date this has not happened, moreover, I doubt that it will. I believe the title holding congregation will remain title holder. I am aware that several local KH's remain owned by the congregation.
                      I believe his relates to the hammer coming down soon when the abuse files are released. The GB will not want KH's to be listed with the org assets to protect them.
                      So, the plan backfired to takeover title backfired. As a strategy to protect these assets, they must leave them in the possession of the local congregations.
                      They have, however, required a monthly note from congregations that had their KH's paid off. This isn't such a bad thing in my opinion. They say they will take care of major repairs and remodels down the road. So it could be viewed this as sort of a "maintenance contract" for major repairs and future upgraders. The big question is, will they the have funds to pay for this?
                      I think they'll be very hard pressed for cash. When a KH needs remodeled, I see them telling the congregation it's too much and then merge congregations together into larger congregations, using up all capacity. This will buy them a lot of time.
                      Amen brother.
                      Sopater

                    • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-12 11:38:35

                      Hello Meleti,
                      You have described our congregation. Paid off our old hall, in need of a new one on the same spot. We saved lots of money. They took controle over the money in the account, with the promiss to fully pay for the new one. 5 years on and nothing happened. They wanted us with about 5 other congregations in a hall kilometers away. Our CO protested against that plan, because of the older brothers and sisters having to travel a lot further. We are in our own old hall still and waiting, and our money is gone.

              • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-12 15:37:28

                Dear brothers and sisters reading this post. Please, please, please be true Beroeans and research the documents for yourself. You decide the truth behind the Menlo Park events. Do not let me nor anyone else decide for you. The documents are all there for truth seekers. PROV 18:13 http://www.documentsrecords.com

                • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-13 07:37:07

                  Judith,
                  I don't think you realize the slippery slope one could find themselves on if they publically denounce the decision of a competent Judge and court decision. The allegation of criminal activity was found to be without merit, the case was dismissed. Do you understand what that means?
                  If I were to publically claim the organization is wicked and corrupt and base that statement upon the Menlo Park case, I would open myself up to being guilty of libel, defamation and slander.
                  Be careful my sister. Yes, you are anonymous here, but to make such a claim publically could bring trouble upon yourself.
                  You can believe what you want to. I personally find it distasteful when one expresses an opinion that is not founded on facts.
                  Your brother,
                  Sopater

                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-13 07:55:47

                    I've reviewed the Menlo Park case and I can sympathize with Judith's take on it. On the other hand, I also understand where Sopater is coming from. To be fair, we cannot know for sure, so perhaps we should just retire this thread since the purpose of our site is Bible research and study. If the motivation of the Organization in the Menlo Park case was impure, it will be revealed in God's good time, but even so, it would merely be a symptom of a greater malaise, one which we have all uncovered as we have examined the teachings of JWs in the light of Scripture.

                    • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-13 10:37:00

                      Amen brother.
                      Sopater

  • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-09 16:47:55

    Hello Sopater, I find it difficult to see a man or woman apart from his or her actions..

    • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-10 07:36:36

      Willy,
      I agree with you, it is very difficult
      In reading Matt 23, we see that Christ rebuked the scribes and Pharisees (he loved them), but he didn't judge them. He judged the following:
      they sat in Moses seat
      they bound heavy burdens on Jews but wouldn't lift a finger
      they did works to be seen by men
      they wore special borders on their garments
      they loved places of honor and the best seats in the synagogues
      they demanded to be called Rabbi
      they devoured widow's houses
      they made a pretense with long prayers
      they paid the tithe of the mint yet neglected the weightier matters of the law
      they strained out a gnat but swallowed the camel
      In particular, I find Matt 23:3 noteworthy:
      "Therefore, all that they tell you do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say [things] and do not do [them]."
      Jesus was saying, their interpretation of the law was mainly correct, but their lives did not correspond with their teachings. Obeying the law of God was properly required, but it was not required to follow the example of the wicked Pharisees.
      Judging happens in the future, there is a day of reckoning:
      John 12:47,48
      "If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day."
      Acts 17:31
      "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."
      Phileo,
      Sopater

      • Reply by Willy on 2016-01-10 09:47:46

        Thank you Sopater for your response, kind regards Willy.

• Reply by Vincent Gomez on 2016-01-09 14:30:53

  Welcome Judith. I personally know exactly where you are coming from. In many ways, I still feel that way. This subject is actually a very layered subject. My opinion (which doesn't mean much) is that if you put yourself in Meleti's shoes, there is always fear of becoming like the GB as far as telling us exactly what to do. As an example, some of my views concerning Christ are different than Watchtower's and traditional "Christian" churches. In fact, some who feel this way, may say that I and others dishonor Christ. But what if I decide to associate with a small church or even a group of brothers who feel similarly? Maybe other views expressed there do not agree with other traditional views. How would I feel if I read an article here that told me to "get out of there"? Yes, it wouldn't turn out to well. Another point I feel is important is that many who are still in for this or that reason, WILL leave in time. Everyone is at different levels. We hear the expression, or something similar, that "he doesn't have enough years in a lIfetime to change". That is literally true. I feel like you. I left in a flash. But others? It may take 5 or 10 years before they make the break. It reminds me of an elder who became the service overseer in my congregation. He NEVER supported Sunday service. But when he was made the service overseer, he said to me, "if an elder doesn't support Sunday service, he shouldn't even serve as an elder." My immediate thoughts were, "now that you finally see the benefits, are you now going to condemn others, because they like you, don't see the benefits RIGHT NOW?" Also too, many here may feel EXACTLY like you. But we don't express those thoughts, due to that we don't want to be responsible in anyway for how a person's life will turn out. But I do appreciate your thoughts. They are so true on so many levels, but I guess we fear becoming like Tony, "stick to what we authorize and you will be safe".?

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-09 16:32:03

    Hello Vincent,
    I did not expect to see all these replies this morning. It's kind of everyone to have read my comment and want to reply. I very much appreciate that. :) I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts about people's individual journey and that some leave immediately and others take years. Love dictates that we care and nurture those who are unsure of what to do and help them to reach their own conclusion. My motivation in writing was due to the strong impression given in the article that REV 18:4 has a timeframe attached to it. That concerned me for the same reason that you express - that it could wrongly influence someone. Sharing scriptures that have had an impact on us is wonderful but when there is no scriptural certainty about a matter, that uncertainty needs to be conveyed. In regard to attending a church service or a gathering of brothers, I guess the key would be whether that church or gathering has an entity, whether an individual or a group of individuals, that elevates itself to a position that only Christ should fill. Jesus said that we were all brothers with one leader, which of course was him. I have been wondering whether Babylon the Great refers to any religious group that has a leader that imposes their views on others instead of allowing Jesus to lead his congregation. I was thinking of ancient Babylon and that Nimrod was the first to elevate himself religiously. Perhaps this is the distinguishing factor identifying members of the collective Babylon the Great. Just a thought. Thanks for your kind response and your welcome.

• Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 15:51:47

  Hi Judith,
  Here is one to think about.
  JW's teach that Christ is invisibly present and began to rule as king in 1914, and that he entrusted the faithful slave with the commission to feed the domestics in 1919.
  However, the parable of the faithful and discreet slave indicates that the master entrusts his slave before he leaves on his journey. Why does the master travel? To secure his kingship.
  The commission to feed the domestics is given before the master leaves on his journey. JW's teach the sequence of events in reverse order. The master returns (invisibly) in 1914 and then entrusts the slave to feed the domestics in 1919.
  In fact all the other related parables, the talents, the minas. the 10 virgins clearly indicate that the master entrusts his servants prior to leaving not after his return.

  • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-09 16:07:28

    Hello Antoninvs,
    Thank you for your reply and what a great point about timing! I love that point and had not seen that previously so thanks again. :)

    • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 17:13:21

      Hi Anonymous,
      You are most welcome.

    • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 17:25:39

      Hi again Anonymous,
      Here is another one you may enjoy.
      Birth pangs always come before the birth, and lead to the birth. Logically therefore, the sign of the son of man or the last days must precede his coming as king. In much the same way that pangs precede birth.
      What do JW's teach? The kingdom was born in 1914 and the pangs of distress are experienced afterword.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-09 18:29:15

        Good point!

        • Reply by ANTONINVS on 2016-01-09 20:02:26

          There are so many inconsistencies. Please don't get me started. LOL. So many I don't know where to begin. But if anyone is interested I have some real doozies.
          Here's one just in parting. I can't resist. LOL. Forgive my self indulgence. You may like to think about this.
          The Society has recently stepped back from establishing types and antitypes, right? Wrong!
          They have taken a historic event, not a parable, not even a teaching, but a simple event in Jesus ministry and created what amounts to an unmistakeable type - antitype.
          What am I referring to you may ask?
          Feeding many through the hands of a few.
          An event, nothing more nothing less, is now used as justification for the few that are said to feed the congregation in our day.
          In light of the Society's recent comments regarding the dangers of making typical anti typical applications this latest one is really something! There is no parallel at all in the Scriptures between the event recorded in Matthew 14 and the modern day feeding of the Christian congregation.
          Yet this new teaching has become fundamental to the recent understanding regarding the identity of the faithful and discreet slave.

      • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-10 02:18:09

        Hello Antoninvs. Another good point. It was actually me, Judith, replying to you before. As it was my first reply, I did not realise that failure to insert a name meant that the post registered as 'Anonymous'. Now I know. :)

• Reply by wish4truth on 2016-01-10 00:19:50

  Hi Judith, your comments are very refreshing! My family and myself, since we left we do not know of anyone else in Australia. I too have a copy of Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony from the Royal Commission where he stated that anyone is free to leave the organisation without punishment in case we need it. We hope to meet like minded people like you in Australia one day.

  • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-10 17:50:55

    Hello wish4truth,
    I am so happy to read your reply! I actually wasn't going to contribute again since one of the replies to my post indicated a complete misunderstanding of my motives and this left me feeling uneasy about written communication. I am thrilled though that I have found your reply and am impelled to say hello! :) It is so encouraging to know that another family in Australia has 'quit touching the unclean thing' 2 COR 6:17.
    We have four friends here in Australia who have left for the same reasons as us - devotion to Jehovah, the God of truth. One is a brother who lives locally (we live in Tasmania) and another is a sister in WA and the other two are a married couple in NSW who have only recently left their overseas ministry because of the realisation of the truth about the organisation. We are keenly aware of our need to 'keep inciting one another to love and fine works' and thus we get together each week to read the bible. We are reading ACTS at present and loving it! There's so much to learn when each of us are free to comment and share insights. We use the phone to be connected.
    We would LOVE to say hello so I would like to provide a way for you to contact us (if you'd like to) without posting my email address here. Just go to the following website and use the contact form. We hope to hear from you. :) http://www.documentsrecords.com

    • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-10 18:40:55

      Judith, I still attend meetings. Do you believe I'm "touching the unclean thing"?
      I ask with brotherly humility and love, sister.
      Your brother,
      Joshua

      • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 05:15:51

        Hello Joshua,
        Thank you for reaching out. I know that this question of whether to separate or not is a huge one for each of us.
        I know without a doubt that the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses is unclean and thus I personally believe that I would be touching an unclean thing by attending. I would like to comment further on this subject but would like to do that tomorrow when I have more time to write. I just wanted to respond tonight to let you know that I appreciate you posting the question.
        Bye for now :)

      • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 19:05:58

        Good morning Joshua! It's morning here in Australia. ? I have been thinking about your question and this morning the words of a song came to my mind on the subject. It's the Kingdom Song 'Walking in Integrity'. It's based on David's own words in PSALM 26:1. Don't you love that song? I do, as I love music and singing very much. I now sing this song with more conviction than ever before. The second line is so familiar to us - "I do not sit with wicked men of lies. I hate the company of those who truth despise." I was so shocked when I discovered the lies that the organisation has been based on. The lie of 1914. The lie of 607BCE. The lie that there are two groups of Christians that have separate hopes. There are SO MANY lies that I cried and cried and cried with the deepest pain I have ever experienced in my life when I found out. My husband and I had seen so many injustices within the organisation and had been the subjects of an extreme case of slander against us in the year 2000 that went unresolved. Nonetheless we endured thinking that this was Jehovah's organisation and thus obediently stayed. It was only in June last year that I stumbled upon a link while on the internet to the court case surrounding Candice Conti. I was absolutely gutted to see footage of Society lawyers in the courtroom misusing scriptures to protect themselves. How disgusting!!! It was horrible! I then went on to research more about pedophilia within the organisation and was overwhelmed with pain when I realised what an epidemic there is. Then I found the information about the corruption of the worst kind in regard to Menlo Park in California. The final blow was finding out that the organisation had affiliated itself with the UN - all the while condemning other religions for their alliances. What hypocrisy!!! I could see and hear our Lord, Jesus Christ condemning them as he did the scribes and Pharisees in his day. MATT 23.
        http://www.documentsrecord.com
        I was distraught with pain at the 'disgusting things' I was learning about. I rang my father who had been an elder for pretty much all my life. He was wonderful!!! We rang each other many times over the next four days and shared our mutual pain. I told him that I could no longer in good conscience go to people's doors and represent an organisation that does the very things that I have been telling people door to door are bad. I felt terrible that I had condemned the Catholic Church and used their inaction towards pedophiles as a basis for finding common ground with those I approached and all the while my own religion was doing the same thing. Shocking!
        My dad felt the same but ....... overnight he changed. He was like a different person the next time we spoke. He was hostile and was trying to use his authority as my father to tell me not to leave. I told him that I had to listen to my heavenly father over my earthly father. I had to listen to my conscience which is something that my father had drilled into me since childhood - listen to your conscience. I discovered later that my older sister had influenced my dad and he had now ignored everything we had shared in the days previously. It was like his mind had wiped away all the scriptures we spoke of like 'James 4:4' where it is spiritual adultery to make friends with the world (affiliation with the UN is certainly spiritual adultery) You know what Joshua? Something has just dawned on me. If someone is a literal adulterer and they are not repentant, should we have anything to do with them? No. They are a gross sinner and even though we would still show common human decency to them, we would not want to associate with such a gross, unrepentant sinner. Why is it any different with spiritual adultery? Isn't this just as bad? Of course it is! The organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses have committed adultery against our heavenly father and they are not sorry for it! Wow! I had not thought of that until now whilst writing to you. But it makes sense.
        You know I had better start a blog or something to explain the whole story about why we left and where we're at now otherwise this comment could go on for a very long time. ? I just want to let you know that I have never been happier spiritually than I am now. Meleti wrote a wonderful post about the pearl of great value. I feel like that man. I never really understood that parable until now. It also makes me think though of Jesus' words, "Don't throw your pearls before swine." Interesting.
        There's so much to share and I SO appreciate the opportunity to talk one-to-one with you in this thread and share my thoughts with you along with my joy, my righteous indignation, my appreciation and a whole stack of other emotions. There's certainly plenty of them when you're going through this life-changing experience. There is NOTHING more important than our worship of Jehovah. I know you will agree.
        Let's talk more sometime ?

        • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-12 12:50:07

          Hi Judith,
          It is a hard thing this realization that we have been following men more than Christ. You're right it wrenches our gut and tears our hearts almost to the point of death. We ask ourselves: Who are these men I was willing to follow even to my death? I never really knew them? Where was my mind, why did I not see it years earlier? Why did I keep trusting even when harsh unloving articles were written or when harsh unloving elders and circuit overseers were not corrected? When LOVE was being replaced with Pharisaical rule keeping and their own brand of oral law? Where was I all that time, how blind I was?
          Today, I sit alongside brothers and sisters who sincerely and with whole hearts love Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and their brother but who still live in the MIST I once lived in. The mist of believing that a man can speak for God and Christ. Have not 99% of Christians lived in this mist since the death of the Apostles?
          Jehovah's Witnesses are a very young religion. Though the leadership has claimed they have re-instituted first century Christianity they in fact have not and could NEVER do so. (No Christian religion since the first century has been blessed by God with spirit anointed Apostles, who prove their apostleship with outward evidences, as first century Christians were blessed to have among them.) Though being a very young religion they have in only 100 years already taken the same road of the early church. First, the seemingly mad certainty that all prophecy will conclude in their own day even though Christ said they would not know when he would return. The also seemingly mad effort to stand up against the governments and preach though under ban when Jesus taught if we were not being received we should wipe our feet and walk away.
          Monastic purity, self pride, dividing themselves from other Christians, claiming divine authority, absolving the sins of the repentant while condemning the "unrepentant" to the tortures of disfellowshiping, the absolute obedience to their "priests" now called the Governing Body. They are today even building a virtual vatican where visitors can view their self-glorifying historical displays and buildings. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.
          There is a long list of similarities between our religion and Christendom because men have been at the helm. Men who put THEIR thoughts above God's thoughts, men who put THEIR teachings above Christ's teachings.
          I remain in this religion because I am needed here. Here I can soothe those struggling under the hard yoke of guilt and the self-flagellation which comes along with it.
          Jehovah's Witnesses, the brothers and sisters in the congregations around the world, are my family. We share a foundation of beliefs and we wait for Jehovah God and Jesus Christ to make things right though now most JWs are coming to terms with the fact that we cannot know when. This is good, we do not serve God with dates in mind.
          The elderly need much encouragement, much love and spiritual hand holding, the young men need to see living examples of Christ's tenderness toward his flock as well as his humility. This why I and others remain.
          What a glory to be awake, and with this awakening, we are free to find work as Christ may lead. You, dear sister, are being led by Christ to work outside our Pharisaical religion bringing food to the searching while others, like myself, are attempting to bring comfort to those who will never leave their little synagogue.
          I praise your efforts, you are doing good.
          Your brother,
          Joshua

          • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-13 02:02:43

            Hello Joshua,
            I was just wondering what you think Paul meant then when he wrote the words in 2 COR 6:17 + 18. Interested to hear your thought on those verses.

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-13 07:14:17

              I hope you don't mind my jumping in, but you raise an interesting question.
              In verse 14, Paul refers to believers (Christians) not being unevenly yoked with unbelievers and in 15 he contrasts Christians with those following Belial (Satan). In 16 he refers to the unbelievers as idol worshippers. It would appear he is talking about association with Pagans who far outnumbered the Corinthian Christians.
              Whether we could apply these words, as Jehovah's Witnesses do, to Christians who do not share our particular theological interpretation of Scripture is another matter.
              For example, Paul did enter into synagogues to preach because even though rejected for their killing of the Christ, the Jews were still from the source from which Christianity sprang. However, there is no record of his attending Pagan religious meetings or even of him entering a Pagan temple to preach.

              • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-13 17:27:18

                Hello Meleti,
                It's great to have this opportunity to discuss the matter and I'm happy you've joined in. ? You have mentioned the example of Paul entering the synagogue a few times now and I can understand the way you are thinking. I decided to go and check my Insight book under 'synagogue' and the second paragraph says, "Paul was not using the Jewish synagogues as places for meeting for a Christian congregation." I am sure you will agree that Paul was using the synagogue as a way to preach to others and give them the opportunity to become a Christian. We all know that anyone who confessed the Christ in the first century Jewish system was expelled just as Jesus said would happen. Paul was not professing to be one of them, he was there to preach and say that there was something better, the Messiah had arrived and thus they needed to break free from their scrupulous efforts at keeping the law and accept the new arrangement where the law was written on the heart. When Paul received opposition to his preaching in the synagogue in Ephesus, he changed his venue for preaching to the the auditorium of Tyrannus. He was not attending the synagogue pretending to be one of them and then surreptitiously making a comment here and there that was carefully worded so as not to reveal his true beliefs. ACTS 13:46 says about one of these synagogue speeches Paul gave, "And so, talking with boldness, Paul and Barnabas said: ....." Paul and Barnabas were bold in their preaching. If there was an opportunity to go the Kingdom Hall and get up on the platform and present scriptures to show others the real good news, I'd be the first one there!!! I am desperate to let them know but ..... we all know that if you dare say anything that is 'out of line' with the Governing Body's understanding on anything, you'll be in a Judicial Meeting before you can say 'inquisition'. ? Comparing attending the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses to the kind of opportunity that the synagogue presented for Paul is simply not applicable. My husband just added, "If you got up on the platform to have your say, they would probably call the police and have you removed. THEN they'd have the Judicial Committee later." He adds , "And ..... the judicial committee wouldn't last long. It would be the quickest Judicial Committee in history" ? That's very funny but true. ? Oh dear brothers, I truly wish you could feel the complete freedom that leaving the organisation brings. It's wonderful! I feel free to share the real good news of the Christ with everyone and anyone who Jehovah is drawing to Christ. JOHN 6:44. We all know that the preaching work is being directed from the heavens. We just need to make ourselves available and the sheep will be brought into our pathway as the holy spirit directs.

                • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-01-13 19:04:30

                  I am happy that you feel a wonderful freedom having cut all ties to your JW brethren. However, how are you now able to preach to them, since they are not allowed to even say “Hello” to you?
                  It is true that Paul was able to preach in the synagogue, but we do not have that freedom in the Kingdom hall. Nevertheless, by attending some reason that they can continue to preach. I have found this to be the case.
                  Do you think that if Paul had experienced a ban such as we have, that he would have broken off all association with the Jews? Do you really think that upon arriving in a new town, he would have not availed himself of the opportunity his Jewish heritage afforded him to contact Jews surreptitiously for as long as that was possible? Or do you think that “touching the unclean thing” also applied to Jews? If so, would it not also have applied to fellow Christians who were starting to believe falsehoods such as some of the congregations in Revelation? There are congregations in Revelation that were practicing things far worse than any congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses I’ve associated with, and yet Jesus still considered them his flock.
                  If we are required here and now to abandon all contact with the congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses (or any other Christian religion for that matter) then we will do so, but you have provided no Scriptural proof of this. So far it is only your opinion.
                  2 Corinthians 6:17 is clearly referring to idol worshipping pagans, and Rev. 18:4 is open to interpretation as to how one gets out, who “her” is, and when the getting out should take place.
                  Judith, you are welcome here, but continuing to exhort us to a course of action without a clear command from Jesus on the subject is inappropriate. That is what we have left behind. Even those who continue to associate regularly with the congregation, are no longer part of it. We do not obey the commands of men anymore. Nor do we consider anyone’s opinion as something on a par with the word of God.
                  As I said, I’m glad you feel free, but I also feel free. Yet we have both taken a different path. How is it that we both feel free then? Because we are both following our conscience. But when someone imposes their conscience on another, they are robbing that person of their precious Christian freedom. Please stop doing that.

            • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-13 09:39:42

              Hi Judith,
              I do not believe associating with Christians who love God and Christ is touching the unclean thing. They are not worshiping a pagan god, they are lost sheep.
              The situation today for many in the congregation is very similar to what was going on in Christ's day: (John 12:42), "Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;"
              The people are being tossed about many being skinned as well by a leadership very similar to the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day. Like the ancient Jews this is a people who are in need of tender care and a release from the burdens of guilt and oppression.
              There is good work in the Witness congregation, not to preach but to lift up. To build up faith in God, Jesus, and the Bible.
              Your brother,
              Joshua

              • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-13 17:50:22

                Hello Joshua,
                I just wrote to Meleti below with some thoughts. Interestingly you say that your work in the congregation is not to preach but why is that? Our assignment is to preach isn't it? Those in the organisation do not know the real good news about the Christ so how are they going to know if we don't tell them? How are we confessing the Christ? It's all a bit confusing really. I'm struggling to understand your and others' reasoning.
                The way I see it is ...... if you speak with boldness like Paul, you'll be 'expelled from the synagogue' and that's ok since Jesus said that this would happen to true Christians. JOHN 16:2-4. Alternatively you could be like us and just leave using the testimony of Geoffrey Jackson to negate any moves to disfellowship you but the result will be the same - no one will talk to you. That's ok too since Jesus said that he came to put not peace but a sword. He came to cause division. MATT 10:34,35. How would Jesus' words apply without a stand being taken? How are we divided if the issue is not brought to the fore?
                It's true that we need to love others but isn't their eternal future more important than their everyday needs? And why would we stop caring for their every day needs anyway if we left? We all know what the answer to that question is, and this is it ..... they wouldn't WANT you to care for them if you left, such is the power of the organisation.
                Furthermore, can't we leave the drawing work to Jehovah? Surely he can arrange matters so that honest hearted ones have the opportunity to learn the truth about the Christ. I know I did last June when I 'accidentally' stumbled over a link of the internet. I put 'accidentally' in inverted commas because I now know that Jehovah was drawing me and I am SO grateful he did! I have accepted the invitation, although it has meant enormous amounts of research, enormous pain, enormous loss and enormous adjustment of thinking but ....... it's all WORTH IT! ? I am FREE to serve my father in spirit and truth. It's wonderful! And now I can help others to find their way through this terrible, terrible realisation and find the joy that I feel. I want to help SO much!

                • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-13 19:18:54

                  Sister Judith,
                  Your well reasoned and clearly stated position is a pleasure to read. Thank you.
                  During the many years I've been a Witness there is an observation I have made; when they leave the risk is high most will spiritually weaken and eventually die. The transition is so tumultuous, the revelations and biblical questions so difficult, that life takes over, disbelief takes hold, and many especially the young fall into agnosticism or atheism.
                  You and your husband are among those who successfully made the transition but as you must know the internet is littered with the souls of former brothers and sisters who did not make the transition and are today without belief. And they are merely the tip of the iceberg.
                  I stay to prevent more "deaths" until that time that Christ by God's spirit disciplines the leadership. Then sister perhaps we can rejoice together each of us having followed the leading of Christ, whether inside or outside the congregation.
                  My best regards to you and your husband.
                  Let your light shine!
                  Your brother,
                  Joshua

              • Reply by sopaterofberoea on 2016-01-14 12:11:59

                Joshua,
                Thank you my brother for such balanced thinking. Amen.
                What has helped me share your view is when I remember that while Jesus severely rebuked the leaders of the Jewish religion (the Pharisees), he still loved them. He did not judge them.
                In fact, Jesus told his disciples to obey them. Matt 23:3 reads:
                "Therefore, all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say [things] and do not do [them]."
                How is it that Jesus could command his disciples to obey the offspring of vipers?
                How might we apply Jesus words to obeying the teachings of the "older men in Brooklyn?"
                Jesus was referring specifically to his disciples hearing the Law in the synagogues. Jesus commanded obedience to all that the scholars and Pharisees said when READING THE LAW in the synagogues. The command to obey applies strictly to the WORDS OF THE LAW.
                The command to obey does not, however, apply to interpretations, twisted reasoning, traditions of the elders, all of which nullified the Law.
                So, if we were to apply the principle Jesus words to the GB and JW community, Jesus would be saying that its proper to obey teachings that are truth from God's Word. There are a number of JW teachings I believe fall in this category, for example:
                Who is Jehovah?
                Who is Jesus? (we don't have it quite right but much closer than most other Christian denominations)
                What is the ransom?
                What is the holy spirit?
                What is the condition of the dead?
                What is the soul?
                What is God's purpose for the earth?
                And many articles regarding Christian living, morality, godly principles, love and forgiveness.
                If a teaching has the ring of truth, to me it makes no difference if it's taught in Baptist, Pentecostal, Adventist, Mormon, or JW, I can obey it and should. The saying "a broken clock is correct twice a day is fitting. Truth is truth.
                But the buck stops when we confirm that a teaching is based upon flawed interpretation or tradition, not on God's Word. We then put on our Beroean cap. We imitate Christ himself as we openly rebuke those responsible for adding to scripture, who invalidate the Word of God by their traditions. (Mark 7:13)
                Jesus and the apostles had the ability to openly rebuke the Pharisee's in the synagogue. They would not be disfellowshipped. They could continue to attend the synagogues and hear the Law of Moses read to them. To do this would not compromise their conscience.
                Those who chose to continue to attend JW meetings can listen and obey when the teaching is truth. What do we do when it's not truth? While we would love to be so bold as to openly rebuke a wrong teaching, unfortunately, we don't have the option to come back next week, like the apostles and Jesus. We are no longer welcome in the synagogue.
                So we do the next best thing. Every article at BP rebukes teachings of men.
                Sopater

                • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-01-14 14:12:41

                  Sopater,
                  I am in full agreement.
                  There is truth in our religion. The truth in our religion is the truth that has been gleaned from the Scriptures. The error is from men. All Christian religions have suffered this same malady. The Watchtower leadership is human and will continue to stumble until they humble themselves and accept Christ's leadership over and above their own.
                  Love and humility are the keys to shepherding God's people. Without these we are truly out of sync with Jesus, the fountain of love and humility.
                  Joshua

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-10 17:53:01

    Oops. I did it again ?. I forgot to put my name in the comment below. Just wanted to clarify that the reply below from 'Anonymous' is from me, Judith. ?

• Reply by Menrov on 2016-01-10 08:15:24

  Hi Judith, good review and I share most of your observations. Welcome.

  • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-10 17:54:03

    Hello Menrov,
    Thank you for replying and welcoming me. That is kind of you and appreciated. ?

Comment by Father jack on 2016-01-09 16:39:30

Just reading your account of your J C judith clever stuff . It seems you and your hubby have got away without being dissfellowshipped OFFICIALY . Crazy they have just kicked you out unofficially instead havent they and all the same rules apply . Welcome to the club of those booted out for standing up for whats right ive been a member for a couple of years . Cogratulations . FJ

• Reply by Judith on 2016-01-10 04:19:58

  Thank you for your reply. It is appreciated. A post on this forum about accepting your torture stake was very inspiring. The point was made that the torture stake was synonymous with shame and disgrace. We must be like Jesus and be willing to be treated with disdain in our determination to live truth. We can feel like the apostles who rejoiced when they were counted worthy of being dishonoured in behalf of his name. And I also love the words of MATT 5:10-12. It warms my heart to think that I can follow Jesus' example and experience the truth of his words in these verses. Thanks for your encouraging words and your welcome to the 'club'. :)

  • Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-10 18:24:47

    I was very zealous for the (truth ) as well judith just like you and your hubby . I was an elder , school overseer used to take evening witnessing arrangements in a drive to get people home . Loved the ministry . I gave everything i had and more for years . I never had any hidden agendas i was a genuine person who did it for the love of god and the brothers , but also i was known for my love of the bible . Like you when i stood up for the real truth from the bible it was all forgotten and they wanted me out . What a shame but they are the victims judith not us . We are free now in christ . Gods blessing sister to you and your hubby . From the UK

    • Reply by Judith on 2016-01-11 05:30:31

      Oh what a lovely comment! Thank you for sharing those thoughts. It's encouraging to know that there are others like ourselves who have lived the same experiences. It's lovely to know how much you enjoyed the ministry. I did too although I did not like the tract campaigns in recent years. I found that it undermined my ability to reason from the scriptures with people since 3 weeks of just giving pieces of paper to someone without any attempt to engage them in conversation was negative. It felt like we were 'striking the air' as Paul wrote and thus for the year prior to leaving I still gave a thorough witness when doing the tract work. You are right about our new freedom. We are truly loving the things we're learning from God's Word! There are so many scriptures that we see and understand in a new light. It's exciting and yet sad at the same time that my friends and in particular my father who has an outstanding scriptural knowledge doesn't want to hear them. I keep in mind that Jehovah draws right hearted ones to Jesus. I think also of Jesus' words, "many are invited and yet few are chosen." It's such a privilege to know that Jehovah has looked into our hearts and helped us see the truth and drawn us to his son.

Comment by AR on 2016-01-09 21:22:54

Just wanted to say I Appreciate the gems coming from all your comments. Yes I still attend the meetings. And I look for opportunities to praise the Christ and Jehovah to. One instance yesterday was in this paragraph:8 Though Jesus was a perfect man, he humbly acknowledged his limitations and reliance on Jehovah. (Read John 5:19.) Did Jesus’ humility weaken his disciples’ respect for him? Not at all. In fact, the more he relied on Jehovah, the more his disciples trusted him. Later, they imitated Jesus’ humility.—Acts 3:12, 13, 16., there was "comments about Relying on Jehovah" I just had to bring out Acts 3:,how the apostles gave credit to the Christ in humility. And in some way we can still confess the Christ in the big congregation. It feels strange admittedly, because the brothers are conditionned to bypass the Christ and praise Jehovah for everything. Not that I'm saying we shouldn't praise Jehovah, but, you know what I'm saying. And I do this same in the ministry, I only preached what I understand today as truth. Conscience feels good then.

• Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-13 05:25:37

  Well done AR . It must be hard going attending the meetings when you realise quite a bit of what they are teaching is at odds with the bible . It must be difficult to sit there and just keep up appearances . I found it almost impossible . I stopped going but bumped into one of the brothers at the bus stop . A real company man we could say . He used expressions like when are you going to make your way back to "the truth" and he said that the watchtower society follow the bible "to the letter " later from another brother i had that "the watchtower study is gods word " . I was condemned for leaving . How on earth you brothers deal with these things on the inside i just dont know . I would have to turn up with a pair of ear muffs on . Hahaha that would be well funny . You would be dragged into the back for some serious counsel for that one . Anyway gods blessing .

  • Reply by Father jack on 2016-01-13 06:26:23

    Sorry just to add , when they say things like that how on earth do you manage to keep your mouth shut . I just couldnt do it anymore . I told the elders what i really thought . I dont need to tell anyone about the outcome .

Comment by GodWORDISTRUTH on 2016-11-26 06:22:13

Beautiful Read! Futuristic!

Comment by GodWORDISTRUTH on 2016-11-26 06:26:07

With the false Christ's appearing even now
Has you thoughts shifted on his divinity ? Is it your opinion based on recent experience that it divinity will be important?
I know you wrote an article of the use of the article "a"
Love,
GWIT

Comment by David kent on 2019-08-22 14:01:56

I apprishate your trust in the scripturs my eyes see your words of truth iv offten had the same thoughts but had no where to turn thanks and let me have some more.