From time to time there have been those who have used the commenting feature of Beroean Pickets to promote the idea that we must take a public stand and renounce our association with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They will cite scriptures like Revelation 18:4 which commands us to get out of Babylon the Great.
It is clear from the command given to us through the apostle John that there will come a time when our lives will depend on getting out of her. But do we have to get out of her before the time of her punishment has arrived? Could there be valid reasons for maintaining association prior to that deadline?
Those who would have us follow a course of action they feel is right will also cite Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:32, 33:
“Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens; but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.” (Mt 10:32, 33)
In Jesus’ time there were those who put faith in him, but would not openly confess him.
“All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.” (John 12:42, 43)
Are we like such ones? If we do not publicly denounce the Organization’s course and false teachings, thereby disassociating ourselves, are we like the rulers that put faith in Jesus, but for love of glory from men remained silent about him?
There was a time when we listened to the opinions of men. Their interpretations of the Scriptures greatly influenced our life course. Every element of life—medical decisions, choice of education and employment, entertainment, recreation—was affected by these doctrines of men. No more. We are free. We now listen only to the Christ on such matters. So when someone new comes along and takes a Scripture and gives it his or her own little slant, I say, “Hold on, just a minute, Buckaroo. Been there, done that, got a closet full of T-shirts. I’m going to need a little more than your say-so.”
So let’s look at what Jesus actually has to say and make our own determination.
Guided by the Christ
Jesus said that he would confess, before God, union with whomever first confessed union with him. On the other hand, disowning the Christ would have Jesus disowning us. Not a good situation.
In Jesus day, the rulers were Jews. Only Jews who converted to Christianity confessed the Christ, but the rest did not. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses are all Christians. They all confess that Christ is the Lord. True, they give too much emphasis to Jehovah and too little to Christ, but that is a question of degree. Let us not be quick to equate the denunciation of a false teaching as a requirement to confessing union with Christ. These are two different things.
Let us suppose you’re at the Watchtower Study and as part of your comment, you express belief in Christ; or you draw the audience’s attention to a Scripture from the article that glorifies Christ’s role. Are you going to be disfellowshipped for that? Hardly. What will likely happen—what has reportedly happened often—is that brothers and sisters will come up to you after the meeting to express appreciation for your comment. When all there is to eat is the same old, same old, a delicacy is especially noticed and appreciated.
So you can and should confess Christ in the congregation. By doing this, you bear witness to all.
However, some might ask, “But if we conceal our true beliefs, are we not failing to confess Jesus?”
This question assumes the problem can be treated as a black or white situation. Generally speaking, my Jehovah’s Witness brethren do not like greys, preferring the black and white of rules. Greys require thinking ability, discernment and trust in the Lord. The Governing Body has obligingly tickled our ears by providing rules that remove the uncertainty of grey, and then added in lots of reassurance that if we follow these rules, we’ll be special and even survive Armageddon. (2Ti 4:3)
However, this situation is not black or white. As the Bible says, there is a time to speak up and a time to remain silent. (Ec 3:7) It is up to each one to decide which applies at any given moment in time.
We do not always have to denounce falsehood. For example, if you live next to a Catholic, do you feel obliged to run over there at the first opportunity and tell him there is no Trinity, no Hellfire, and that the Pope isn’t the Vicar of Christ? Perhaps that will make you feel better. Perhaps you’ll feel you’ve done your duty; that you are confessing Christ. But how will it make your neighbor feel? Will it do him any good?
It is often not what we do that counts, but why we do it.
Love will motivate us to look for occasions to talk truth, but it will also cause us to consider, not our own feelings and best interests, but those of our neighbor.
How should this Scripture apply to your situation if you are continuing to associate with a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses?
“Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others.” (Php 2:3, 4)
What is the determining factor here? Do we do something out of contentiousness or egotism, or are we motivated by humility and consideration for others?
What was the factor that caused the rulers not to confess Jesus? They had a selfish longing for glory, not love for the Christ. Bad motivation.
Often the sin is not in what we do, but in why we do it.
If you formally wish to renounce all association with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, then no one has a right to stop you. But remember, Jesus sees the heart. Are you doing it to be contentious? Does it stroke your ego? After a life of deceit, do you really want to stick it to them? How could that motivation equate to a confession of union with the Christ?
If, on the other hand, you feel that a clean break will benefit members of your family or send a message to many others to give them courage to stand up for what is right, then that is the type of motivation that Jesus would approve of.
I know of one case where the parents were able to continue attending but their child was becoming troubled by the two conflicting schools of thought. The parents were able to handle the conflicting teachings, knowing what was false and dismissing it, but for the sake of their child, they withdrew from the congregation. Nevertheless, they did so quietly – not officially – so that they could continue to associate with family members who were just beginning their own awakening process.
Let us be clear on one point: It is up to each one to make this decision for him/herself.
What we are looking at here are the principles involved. I am not presuming to counsel anyone on a particular course of action. Each one must determine how to apply the relevant Bible principles in his or her own case. Accepting a blanket rule from someone else with a personal agenda is not the way of the Christian.
Walking the Tightrope
Since Eden, serpents have been given a bad rap. The creature is often used in the Bible to represent negative things. Satan is the original serpent. The Pharisees were called a “brood of vipers”. However, on one occasion, Jesus used this creature in a positive light by counseling us to be “innocent as doves, but cautious like serpents”. This was specifically in the context of a congregation in which there were ravenous wolves. (Re 12:9; Mt 23:33; 10:16)
There is a deadline for getting out of the congregation based on our understanding of Revelation 18:4, but until that line in the sand appears, can we do more good by maintaining association? This requires us to apply Mt 10:16 in our own case. It can be a fine line to walk, for we cannot confess union with the Christ if we preach falsehood. Christ is the source of truth. (John 1:17) True Christians worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
As we’ve already discussed, that does not mean we must speak truth at all times. Sometimes it is best to be silent, like a cautious serpent hoping to go unnoticed. The thing we cannot do is compromise by preaching falsehood.
Avoiding a Bad Influence
Witnesses are taught to withdraw from anyone who isn’t in complete agreement with them. They view uniformity of thought on all levels as necessary for God’s approval. Once we have awakened to the truth, we find that it is hard to eradicate old indoctrination. What we may end up doing without realizing it is to take the old indoctrination, turn it on its ear and apply it in reverse, withdrawing from the congregation because we now view them as the apostates; people to be avoided.
Again, we have to make our own decision, but here is a principle to consider taken from an account in the life of Jesus:
“John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” 39 But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; 40 for he that is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives YOU a cup of water to drink on the ground that YOU belong to Christ, I truly tell YOU, he will by no means lose his reward.” (Mr 9:38-41)
Did the “certain man” have a full understanding of all Scripture? Were his teachings accurate in every detail? We do not know. What we do know is that the disciples were not happy with the situation because he “was not accompanying” them. In other words, he was not one of them. This is the situation with Jehovah’s Witnesses. To be saved, you have to be “one of us.” We are taught that one cannot find God’s favor outside of the Organization.
But that is a human point of view, as demonstrated by the attitude of Jesus disciples. It is not the view of Jesus. He set them straight by showing that it was not who you associate with that ensures your reward, but who you side with—who you support. Even supporting a disciple with a trivial kindness (a drink of water) because he is a disciple of the Christ, ensures one’s reward. That is the principle we must bear in mind.
Whether we all believe the same things or not, what is important is union with the Lord. This is not to suggest for a minute that truth is unimportant. True Christians worship in spirit and truth. If I know the truth and yet teach a falsehood, I am working against the spirit that reveals truth to me. This is a dangerous situation. However, if I stand by the truth yet associate with someone who believes a falsehood, is that the same thing? If it were, then it would be impossible to preach to people, to win them over. To do that they must have confidence and trust in you, and such trust is not built up in a moment, but over time and through exposure.
It is for this reason that many have decided to continue in contact with the congregation, though they limit the number of meetings they attend—mostly for their own sanity. By not making a formal break with the Organization, they can continue to preach, to sow seeds of truth, to find those with a good heart who are also awakening, but stumbling in the dark looking for support, for some outside guidance.
Dealing with Wolves
You must openly confess faith in Jesus and submission to his rule if you are to have his approval, but that will never get you disfellowshipped from the congregation. However, too much emphasis on Jesus over Jehovah will get you noticed. Lacking evidence to remove what they might see as a poisonous element, the elders will often try attacks based on gossip. So many associated with this site have encountered this tactic that I have lost count. I’ve run into it several times myself, and have learned through experience how to deal with it. Christ gave us the model. Study his many encounters with the Pharisees, scribes, and Jewish rulers so as to learn from him.
In our day, a common tactic is to be told by the elders that they wish to meet with you because they’ve heard things. They will assure you they only want to hear your side. However, they won’t tell you the exact nature of the accusations, nor their source. You will never even know the name of the ones accusing you, nor will you be allowed to cross examine them in line with Scripture.
“The first to state his case seems right,
Until the other party comes and cross-examines him.”
In such a case, you are on solid ground. Simply refuse to answer any question based on gossip and for which you cannot confront your accuser. If they persist, suggest that they are enabling gossip and that this calls their qualifications into question, but do not answer.
Another common approach is to use probing questions, a loyalty test as it were. You may be asked how you feel about the Governing Body; if you believe they have been appointed by Jesus. You need not answer if you do not wish to. They cannot proceed without evidence. Or you could confess your Lord in such cases by giving them an answer such as this:
“I believe Jesus Christ is the head of the congregation. I believe he has appointed a faithful and discreet slave. That slave feeds the domestics with truth. Any truth coming from the Governing Body is something I will accept.”
If they probe deeper, you could say, “I’ve answered your question. What are you trying to achieve here, brothers?”
I will share a personal decision with you, though you should make up your own mind in such cases. If and when I’m called in again, I will put my iPhone on the table and tell them, “Brothers, I’m recording this conversation.” This will likely upset them, but what of it. One cannot be disfellowshipped for wanting a hearing to be public. If they say that the proceedings are confidential, you can say that you waive your right to a confidential hearing. They may bring out Proverbs 25:9:
“Plead your own cause with your fellowman, and do not reveal the confidential talk of another. . .” (Pr 25:9)
To which you can reply, “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize you wanted to reveal confidential matters about yourself or others. I’ll turn it off when the conversation comes to that, but as to where it concerns me, I’m quite okay with having it on. After all, the judges in Israel sat at the city gates and all cases were heard in public.”
I very much doubt that the discussion will continue for they do not love the light. This all too common situation is nicely summed up by the apostle John.
“He that says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness up to right now. 10 He that loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in his case. 11 But he that hates his brother is in the darkness and is walking in the darkness, and he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.” (1Jo 2:9-11)
I am adding this addendum post-publication because, since the article was published, I’ve had some angry emails and comments complaining that I am acting as the Watchtower has acted by imposing my view on others. I find it remarkable that no matter how clearly I think I am expressing myself, it seems there are always those who misread my intent. I’m sure you’ve come across this yourself from time to time.
So I will try to be very clear here.
I do not believe you must leave the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses once you have come to a realization of the falsehoods that are regularly taught in the publications and Kingdom halls, but…BUT…I also do not believe you must stay. If that sounds contradictory, let me put is another way:
It is not for me, nor anyone else, to tell you to leave; nor is it for me, nor anyone else, to tell you to stay.
It is a matter for your own conscience to decide.
There will come a time when it is not a matter of conscience as revealed in Re 18:4. However, until that time arrives, it is my hope that the Scriptural principles outlined in the article can serve as a guide for you to determine what is best for you, your kin, your friends, and your associates.
I know that most got this message, but for the few who have suffered greatly and who are struggling with strong, and justified, emotional trauma, please understand that I am not telling anyone what they must do—either way.
Thank you for understanding.
I apprishate your trust in the scripturs my eyes see your words of truth iv offten had the same thoughts but had no where to turn thanks and let me have some more.
With the false Christ’s appearing even now
Has you thoughts shifted on his divinity ? Is it your opinion based on recent experience that it divinity will be important?
I know you wrote an article of the use of the article “a”
Beautiful Read! Futuristic!
Just wanted to say I Appreciate the gems coming from all your comments. Yes I still attend the meetings. And I look for opportunities to praise the Christ and Jehovah to. One instance yesterday was in this paragraph:8 Though Jesus was a perfect man, he humbly acknowledged his limitations and reliance on Jehovah. (Read John 5:19.) Did Jesus’ humility weaken his disciples’ respect for him? Not at all. In fact, the more he relied on Jehovah, the more his disciples trusted him. Later, they imitated Jesus’ humility.—Acts 3:12, 13, 16., there was “comments about Relying on Jehovah” I just had… Read more »
Well done AR . It must be hard going attending the meetings when you realise quite a bit of what they are teaching is at odds with the bible . It must be difficult to sit there and just keep up appearances . I found it almost impossible . I stopped going but bumped into one of the brothers at the bus stop . A real company man we could say . He used expressions like when are you going to make your way back to “the truth” and he said that the watchtower society follow the bible “to the… Read more »
Sorry just to add , when they say things like that how on earth do you manage to keep your mouth shut . I just couldnt do it anymore . I told the elders what i really thought . I dont need to tell anyone about the outcome .
Just reading your account of your J C judith clever stuff . It seems you and your hubby have got away without being dissfellowshipped OFFICIALY . Crazy they have just kicked you out unofficially instead havent they and all the same rules apply . Welcome to the club of those booted out for standing up for whats right ive been a member for a couple of years . Cogratulations . FJ
Thank you for your reply. It is appreciated. A post on this forum about accepting your torture stake was very inspiring. The point was made that the torture stake was synonymous with shame and disgrace. We must be like Jesus and be willing to be treated with disdain in our determination to live truth. We can feel like the apostles who rejoiced when they were counted worthy of being dishonoured in behalf of his name. And I also love the words of MATT 5:10-12. It warms my heart to think that I can follow Jesus’ example and experience the truth… Read more »
I was very zealous for the (truth ) as well judith just like you and your hubby . I was an elder , school overseer used to take evening witnessing arrangements in a drive to get people home . Loved the ministry . I gave everything i had and more for years . I never had any hidden agendas i was a genuine person who did it for the love of god and the brothers , but also i was known for my love of the bible . Like you when i stood up for the real truth from the… Read more »
Oh what a lovely comment! Thank you for sharing those thoughts. It’s encouraging to know that there are others like ourselves who have lived the same experiences. It’s lovely to know how much you enjoyed the ministry. I did too although I did not like the tract campaigns in recent years. I found that it undermined my ability to reason from the scriptures with people since 3 weeks of just giving pieces of paper to someone without any attempt to engage them in conversation was negative. It felt like we were ‘striking the air’ as Paul wrote and thus for… Read more »
Hello there, This is my first contribution to the website. I have read many articles here over the past few months that have strengthened my faith and enhanced my understanding of scripture. For this I am truly grateful. I had no idea though that you were still associating with the organisation Meleti! How strange?! Your article explains your reasons for doing so and as you rightly point out, each of us must make our own decision in this regard. ROM 14:12. However, I feel that many of your arguments are not sound and thought you and others who frequent the… Read more »
Welcome to our little online community, Judith. I look forward to your contributions* to the forum. You have raised many points, which I shall do my best to address. “I had no idea though that you were still associating with the organisation Meleti! How strange?!” The process you have gone through, and likely are still going through to some degree, is very traumatic. It is well known to all of us here.* Each of us handles it differently. For some, it seems a clean break is the only way to honor God. Having taken this determination at great personal cost,*… Read more »
Hello Meleti, I did not expect to wake up and read responses straight away. How nice of everyone to comment. Thank you for taking the time to write the things you have. Even whilst in the organisation, I wondered about the apostle Paul’s compliance with the local elders in Jerusalem and the fulfilling of the vow. I thought, “Why would Paul preach everywhere about the law being fulfilled and the introduction of the Christian era and then return and participate in this event?” The thought that came to me was this – the things included in the law were not… Read more »
Thank you for this encouraging comment, Judith. I look forward to many more.
Your brother in Christ,
Welcome Judith, In that your comments were addressed to statements in Meleti’s article and he has responded (very adequately in my opinion), I encourage each to decide for themselves which view expresses greater: Love (Prov 10:12) Patience (Eph 4:2) Goodness (Heb 13:16) Christ himself set the ultimate pattern for Christians today. What is the second most important command? “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Mark 12:31) Even in an extreme situation what did Christ command? That we “love (agape) our enemies and do good to them. (Luke 6:35) We clearly see that in dealings with any human, be they a brother,… Read more »
Hello Sopater, Thank you so much for replying. That’s kind of you. I never expected anyone to even read my comment except Meleti. I have never commented before so was unaware of how it all works. I would like to assure you that I have absolutely no bitterness or anger toward anyone. I only have love. Love firstly for Jehovah and his Christ and then secondly for my neighbour. It’s funny you know but I usually don’t write. My reason for steering away from writing is that what you write can be interpreted different ways. I much prefer talking in… Read more »
Hi Judith, I hope you had a delicious lunch and equal conversation.?
Ha! Hi Willy! Thank you so much.! We did have a delicious lunch (barbeque prawns and salad. Yum!) and a wonderful spiritual conversation. It’s uplifting to still have the opportunity to talk to others straight from God’s Word and the bonus is …… you don’t have to worry about counting time!!! I love that!!! I love the fact that my motive is completely pure rather than thinking, “This time I spent will help towards a good month’s total hours.” It really is a nice feeling. 🙂
Judith, Thank you for replying. I’m very happy to know that you still love the JW community. What made me wonder was your statement: “If people come into the organisation, will that bring them to Christ? No. It places them on the broad road to destruction.” My sister, there are many who learned about Christ and Christian living through the organization, including Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap. Many (if not most) of us here at BP spent our lifetime learning about Christ and Christian living through our association with the organization. Did we have all the dots connected? No. Given… Read more »
A fine post, Sopater. I would strongly suggest a synopsis of this post be placed on the home page in order that visiting JWs may see that Beroean Pickets is following Christ’s example. He exposed the wrong but kept the good in his religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses are a Judeo Christian sect which holds within itself the best of Biblical teachings and the worst of conservative Christian fundamentalism. They are the 21st century Christian equivalent of first century Judaism. When Christ returns he will feel very much at home in the Witnesses, like old home week. Those of us who are… Read more »
Thank you my brother and welcome.
Looking forward to many insightful posts.
Hello Sopater, I’m so pleased that you can sense my love for others. It is my love for others that moves me to speak up. I couldn’t agree with you more about the advantages of being brought up as a Witness. I have no regrets about the moral values I have learned and I have come to know and love Jehovah and become adept at using God’s Word. All these things form an excellent basis for learning about the Christ. However, the word ‘corruption’ as described in your comment is perfect for the organisation! The words you quote are: dishonesty,… Read more »
Judith, Yes we are certainly friends. I’ve known about the Menlo Park ordeal since it hit the internet. Again, a very isolated case involving rogue elders. There are other cases I’m sure. My statement is that at an official level, the unscriptural teachings that now plague JW didn’t come from corrupt men. Nor is the fact that the current group has been forced to defend them (for a variety of reasons) evidence of any corruption. Here’s a question: What do you call a group of men who know certain teaching are wrong. including those that cause harm, even death, but… Read more »
Oh Sopater! You know about Menlo Park but do not see it as corruption?! Wow! That’s hard to process. It’s not a case of rogue elders. It comes straight from the top! I can only assume that you did not read through the documents at the website I sent the link to. Just in case someone else is reading this, please go to http://www.documentsrecords.com and read what the society lawyers say on page 4 of the court transcript involving the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall illegal takeover. I have thoroughly researched the scandal and was shocked to the core by the… Read more »
Thank you for sharing your story Judith, isn’t it an amazing feeling to be a child of Jehovah, which Jesus Christ through his death made possible ! Have a Wonderful evening too ?
Hello Willy. Yes! I cannot tell you how difficult it was at first to accept the truth of this. I honestly felt like crawling under my bed and hiding such was my feeling of unworthiness. All my life I longed to be a son of God. I used to pray to Jehovah and say, “I am so much looking forward to being perfect in the new system and reflecting your qualities perfectly.” This was what I looked forward to more than anything. I thought though that this was hundreds of years away. Admittedly I had always wondered why Jesus’ blood… Read more »
Hi JUdith, I thought of the words in Psalms 27:10 and what a great comfort they are.
Love from your sister in Christ
Willy! I thought you were a brother! How funny is that? ? You’re my SISTER! It’s so nice to know that. Judith is my real name. (It feels SO WONDERFUL to feel free to use my real name. I am not suggesting that anyone else not using their real name here is a bad thing, it’s just that I feel so free and happy that I don’t have to be clandestine about my true identity.) Thank you so much for such a loving and caring message. I feel a special joy with the scripture you have given me because I… Read more »
Judith, I haven’t the time to carefully read through every page of the Menlo Park transcripts, but I feel I have a fairly good grasp of what happened there. Simply put, the body of elders in the title holding congregation were removed. Three of these elders were officers of the corporation that owned the KH asset. My first question would be, why was the entire body removed? This is extremely rare. There was obviously some issue. So it appears this dispute resulted from the elder body being deleted, which I equate to PRIDE. Cobb (the plaintiff in the lawsuit) didn’t… Read more »
If I may ask, do you realize that when you infer that there is no goodness in the organization of JW, your assessment must include all that associate?
For what remains of the organization if you separate the rank and file members? A few thousand at Bethel?
Or is it you believe that only those at Bethel are corrupt and wicked? If this is the case, why would you take issue with any who choose to continue to associate with rank and file members in their congregation?
To judge someone as bad, is to pass judgment which belongs in the hands of our Lord. To judge someone as good is also to pass judgment which belongs in the hands of our Lord. We can and should judge actions however so that we can avoid being deceived. The question is, Why did the Organization sell the kingdom hall? Did the hall belong to the congregation or the Organization? Legally, the congregation. If the congregation didn’t want to sell, and if the Organization removed all the elders and intimidated those who opposed the sale so that it could take… Read more »
Yes, Meleti, the case was not just dropped, it was dismissed having no merit. I completely agree the KH belonged to the congregation. So it appears the vote of the majority of members in the congregation was to not support the elder body. It is not for a body to decide independent of the majority vote of the congregation. The three officers had a fiduciary duty to act in accordance with the wishes of the majority of members. That is law. In fact, to act otherwise is actually illegal. I’m not an attorney, but I feel 100% certain that if… Read more »
Something else I think is relevant in this case: The illegal activities alleged in the suit were: Conspiracy, Conspiracy to Commit Fraud, Collusion, Fraud, Extortion, Defamation, Mail and Wire Fraud, Religious Fraud. It so happens the Judge disagreed on every count. I have confidence that of the Judge found any to be true, it would have been pursued. Moreover, if the Judge was in error, a motion could have been that the judgment was in error, and the case moved to another court. It must not have been even close. The trial attorney was likely working on a contingency, and… Read more »
Thanks for that clarification, Sopater. Without merit doesn’t mean no wrongdoing occurred, however. Neither side is cleared of wrongdoing. I know we are of one mind on that. Not everyone understands what racketeering is, so to explain, the idea behind racketeering is that the racketeer uses intimidation tactics to force his victim to do his will. The victims fear the consequences of not giving in to his wishes. Imagine a protection racket. Dozens are coerced into turning over their money to mobsters. The prosecutor brings a case, but at the moment of truth, the victims all decline to bear witness… Read more »
I am in complete agreement with everything you’ve said. I don’t know all the particulars, but we do know that “peer” pressure is a powerful tool used by the GB, you are a black sheep and trouble maker if you don’t “vote” with the pack. Here’s an interesting detail: In the LDC meeting we had a year ago, it was implied that the LDC reps and CO’s would be making certain title paperwork was updated to reflect the WTBTS as title holder. To date this has not happened, moreover, I doubt that it will. I believe the title holding congregation… Read more »
You have described our congregation. Paid off our old hall, in need of a new one on the same spot. We saved lots of money. They took controle over the money in the account, with the promiss to fully pay for the new one. 5 years on and nothing happened. They wanted us with about 5 other congregations in a hall kilometers away. Our CO protested against that plan, because of the older brothers and sisters having to travel a lot further. We are in our own old hall still and waiting, and our money is gone.
Dear brothers and sisters reading this post. Please, please, please be true Beroeans and research the documents for yourself. You decide the truth behind the Menlo Park events. Do not let me nor anyone else decide for you. The documents are all there for truth seekers. PROV 18:13 http://www.documentsrecords.com
Judith, I don’t think you realize the slippery slope one could find themselves on if they publically denounce the decision of a competent Judge and court decision. The allegation of criminal activity was found to be without merit, the case was dismissed. Do you understand what that means? If I were to publically claim the organization is wicked and corrupt and base that statement upon the Menlo Park case, I would open myself up to being guilty of libel, defamation and slander. Be careful my sister. Yes, you are anonymous here, but to make such a claim publically could bring… Read more »
I’ve reviewed the Menlo Park case and I can sympathize with Judith’s take on it. On the other hand, I also understand where Sopater is coming from. To be fair, we cannot know for sure, so perhaps we should just retire this thread since the purpose of our site is Bible research and study. If the motivation of the Organization in the Menlo Park case was impure, it will be revealed in God’s good time, but even so, it would merely be a symptom of a greater malaise, one which we have all uncovered as we have examined the teachings… Read more »
Hello Sopater, I find it difficult to see a man or woman apart from his or her actions..
Willy, I agree with you, it is very difficult In reading Matt 23, we see that Christ rebuked the scribes and Pharisees (he loved them), but he didn’t judge them. He judged the following: they sat in Moses seat they bound heavy burdens on Jews but wouldn’t lift a finger they did works to be seen by men they wore special borders on their garments they loved places of honor and the best seats in the synagogues they demanded to be called Rabbi they devoured widow’s houses they made a pretense with long prayers they paid the tithe of the… Read more »
Thank you Sopater for your response, kind regards Willy.
Welcome Judith. I personally know exactly where you are coming from. In many ways, I still feel that way. This subject is actually a very layered subject. My opinion (which doesn’t mean much) is that if you put yourself in Meleti’s shoes, there is always fear of becoming like the GB as far as telling us exactly what to do. As an example, some of my views concerning Christ are different than Watchtower’s and traditional “Christian” churches. In fact, some who feel this way, may say that I and others dishonor Christ. But what if I decide to associate with… Read more »
Hello Vincent, I did not expect to see all these replies this morning. It’s kind of everyone to have read my comment and want to reply. I very much appreciate that. 🙂 I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts about people’s individual journey and that some leave immediately and others take years. Love dictates that we care and nurture those who are unsure of what to do and help them to reach their own conclusion. My motivation in writing was due to the strong impression given in the article that REV 18:4 has a timeframe attached to it. That concerned me… Read more »
Hi Judith, Here is one to think about. JW’s teach that Christ is invisibly present and began to rule as king in 1914, and that he entrusted the faithful slave with the commission to feed the domestics in 1919. However, the parable of the faithful and discreet slave indicates that the master entrusts his slave before he leaves on his journey. Why does the master travel? To secure his kingship. The commission to feed the domestics is given before the master leaves on his journey. JW’s teach the sequence of events in reverse order. The master returns (invisibly) in 1914… Read more »
Thank you for your reply and what a great point about timing! I love that point and had not seen that previously so thanks again. 🙂
You are most welcome.
Hi again Anonymous,
Here is another one you may enjoy.
Birth pangs always come before the birth, and lead to the birth. Logically therefore, the sign of the son of man or the last days must precede his coming as king. In much the same way that pangs precede birth.
What do JW’s teach? The kingdom was born in 1914 and the pangs of distress are experienced afterword.
There are so many inconsistencies. Please don’t get me started. LOL. So many I don’t know where to begin. But if anyone is interested I have some real doozies. Here’s one just in parting. I can’t resist. LOL. Forgive my self indulgence. You may like to think about this. The Society has recently stepped back from establishing types and antitypes, right? Wrong! They have taken a historic event, not a parable, not even a teaching, but a simple event in Jesus ministry and created what amounts to an unmistakeable type – antitype. What am I referring to you may ask?… Read more »
Hello Antoninvs. Another good point. It was actually me, Judith, replying to you before. As it was my first reply, I did not realise that failure to insert a name meant that the post registered as ‘Anonymous’. Now I know. 🙂
Hi Judith, your comments are very refreshing! My family and myself, since we left we do not know of anyone else in Australia. I too have a copy of Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony from the Royal Commission where he stated that anyone is free to leave the organisation without punishment in case we need it. We hope to meet like minded people like you in Australia one day.
Hello wish4truth, I am so happy to read your reply! I actually wasn’t going to contribute again since one of the replies to my post indicated a complete misunderstanding of my motives and this left me feeling uneasy about written communication. I am thrilled though that I have found your reply and am impelled to say hello! 🙂 It is so encouraging to know that another family in Australia has ‘quit touching the unclean thing’ 2 COR 6:17. We have four friends here in Australia who have left for the same reasons as us – devotion to Jehovah, the God… Read more »
Judith, I still attend meetings. Do you believe I’m “touching the unclean thing”?
I ask with brotherly humility and love, sister.
Thank you for reaching out. I know that this question of whether to separate or not is a huge one for each of us.
I know without a doubt that the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is unclean and thus I personally believe that I would be touching an unclean thing by attending. I would like to comment further on this subject but would like to do that tomorrow when I have more time to write. I just wanted to respond tonight to let you know that I appreciate you posting the question.
Bye for now 🙂
Good morning Joshua! It’s morning here in Australia. ? I have been thinking about your question and this morning the words of a song came to my mind on the subject. It’s the Kingdom Song ‘Walking in Integrity’. It’s based on David’s own words in PSALM 26:1. Don’t you love that song? I do, as I love music and singing very much. I now sing this song with more conviction than ever before. The second line is so familiar to us – “I do not sit with wicked men of lies. I hate the company of those who truth despise.”… Read more »
Hi Judith, It is a hard thing this realization that we have been following men more than Christ. You’re right it wrenches our gut and tears our hearts almost to the point of death. We ask ourselves: Who are these men I was willing to follow even to my death? I never really knew them? Where was my mind, why did I not see it years earlier? Why did I keep trusting even when harsh unloving articles were written or when harsh unloving elders and circuit overseers were not corrected? When LOVE was being replaced with Pharisaical rule keeping and… Read more »
I was just wondering what you think Paul meant then when he wrote the words in 2 COR 6:17 + 18. Interested to hear your thought on those verses.
I hope you don’t mind my jumping in, but you raise an interesting question. In verse 14, Paul refers to believers (Christians) not being unevenly yoked with unbelievers and in 15 he contrasts Christians with those following Belial (Satan). In 16 he refers to the unbelievers as idol worshippers. It would appear he is talking about association with Pagans who far outnumbered the Corinthian Christians. Whether we could apply these words, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do, to Christians who do not share our particular theological interpretation of Scripture is another matter. For example, Paul did enter into synagogues to preach because… Read more »
Hello Meleti, It’s great to have this opportunity to discuss the matter and I’m happy you’ve joined in. ? You have mentioned the example of Paul entering the synagogue a few times now and I can understand the way you are thinking. I decided to go and check my Insight book under ‘synagogue’ and the second paragraph says, “Paul was not using the Jewish synagogues as places for meeting for a Christian congregation.” I am sure you will agree that Paul was using the synagogue as a way to preach to others and give them the opportunity to become a… Read more »
I am happy that you feel a wonderful freedom having cut all ties to your JW brethren. However, how are you now able to preach to them, since they are not allowed to even say “Hello” to you? It is true that Paul was able to preach in the synagogue, but we do not have that freedom in the Kingdom hall. Nevertheless, by attending some reason that they can continue to preach. I have found this to be the case. Do you think that if Paul had experienced a ban such as we have, that he would have broken off… Read more »
Hi Judith, I do not believe associating with Christians who love God and Christ is touching the unclean thing. They are not worshiping a pagan god, they are lost sheep. The situation today for many in the congregation is very similar to what was going on in Christ’s day: (John 12:42), “Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;” The people are being tossed about many being skinned as well by a leadership very similar to the Scribes… Read more »
Hello Joshua, I just wrote to Meleti below with some thoughts. Interestingly you say that your work in the congregation is not to preach but why is that? Our assignment is to preach isn’t it? Those in the organisation do not know the real good news about the Christ so how are they going to know if we don’t tell them? How are we confessing the Christ? It’s all a bit confusing really. I’m struggling to understand your and others’ reasoning. The way I see it is …… if you speak with boldness like Paul, you’ll be ‘expelled from the… Read more »
Sister Judith, Your well reasoned and clearly stated position is a pleasure to read. Thank you. During the many years I’ve been a Witness there is an observation I have made; when they leave the risk is high most will spiritually weaken and eventually die. The transition is so tumultuous, the revelations and biblical questions so difficult, that life takes over, disbelief takes hold, and many especially the young fall into agnosticism or atheism. You and your husband are among those who successfully made the transition but as you must know the internet is littered with the souls of former… Read more »
Joshua, Thank you my brother for such balanced thinking. Amen. What has helped me share your view is when I remember that while Jesus severely rebuked the leaders of the Jewish religion (the Pharisees), he still loved them. He did not judge them. In fact, Jesus told his disciples to obey them. Matt 23:3 reads: “Therefore, all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say [things] and do not do [them].” How is it that Jesus could command his disciples to obey the offspring of vipers? How might we apply… Read more »
I am in full agreement.
There is truth in our religion. The truth in our religion is the truth that has been gleaned from the Scriptures. The error is from men. All Christian religions have suffered this same malady. The Watchtower leadership is human and will continue to stumble until they humble themselves and accept Christ’s leadership over and above their own.
Love and humility are the keys to shepherding God’s people. Without these we are truly out of sync with Jesus, the fountain of love and humility.
Oops. I did it again ?. I forgot to put my name in the comment below. Just wanted to clarify that the reply below from ‘Anonymous’ is from me, Judith. ?
Hi Judith, good review and I share most of your observations. Welcome.
Thank you for replying and welcoming me. That is kind of you and appreciated. ?
I would add one caution to the comments regarding how to respond to the enquiries made by elders. This is not a criticism. Because what Meleti says is technically correct. You can’t be disfellowshipped for professing belief in Christ. However, and this where I would make my caution. If one excercises his or her right to defend ones self before the elders, the danger is that what is perceived as non cooperation on your part then becomes the basis for the elders to take their action against you further. The focus will shift from the matter they originally came to… Read more »
The points ANTONINVS makes are valid. We have Jesus before the Sanhedrin as a Biblical example of this mindset. It is the JW equivalent of the Kobayashi Maru. 🙂 For this reason, many have decided simply to decline a meeting with the elders. The only meeting you cannot decline is a call to a judicial hearing. Well, you can decline that as well, but they will just disfellowship in absentia. The best example of how to deal with self-important men is provided by Jesus himself in his dealings with the Jewish leaders. I also recommend an excellent movie on the… Read more »
Greetings Meleti, I think you are right the best course is to keep quite if at all possible. It would have been pointless for Jesus to speak, because the outcome was a forgone conclusion. With elders it often ends up the same way, if they are gunning for you its all over in their minds before it even begins. Anything you say in your defence will only confirm the conclusions they have already drawn. Listening to both sides before drawing conclusions is fundamental to justice, and yet how many times I’ve seen elders make up their minds based on hearsay… Read more »
Hats off to ant thats correct again if they cant get you on one thing they will change the goal posts and hurl the accusation of loose conduct instead which they percieve as brazen attitude . (Not a bible teaching ) they did it to one of my sons they realised they could not dish him officially for the orignal accusation . So hey he had a bad (brazen ) attitude toward the elders as well good enough. The red card came out. Game over man game over .
Welcome Brother Adolf, you are among friends. I too look forward to your insightful contributions.
I have been one of Jehovah’s witnesses for the past 55 years, during the last fifty years I have pioneered and served as an elder with a variety of special assignments that I used to consider them as “priviliges” a year ago, I started to calling into question certain doctrines, and in light of the bible itsels I found them to be false, recently a close brother and close friend cautiously spoke to me about the Beroean Pickets, and opened up about having similar concerns we both looked at same of the topics there written until just recently I read… Read more »
Thank you so much Adolf, and welcome. I hope you continue to comment as your years of experience will be beneficial for us to learn from.
Stick around Adolf. Be patient. Read all the comments in these articles. I haven’t been here as long as others. But recently, the people on this site truly feel like brothers. Part of what helped me was reading the comments and sharing thoughts. After awhile, people’s personalities shine through. It may take some time, but keep coming here, and you will feel similarly. This place definitely takes away a lot of loneliness you experience. Sometimes I feel obsessed with coming here, but weren’t we obsessed at one time with seeing our friends at the kingdom hall? Their is nothing wrong… Read more »
thouroughly enjoyed reading your article. It was very balanced and well written. It is a struggle to walk the fine line of truth and error as what I now view myself as -a Christian in association with Jehovahs Witnesses. I genuinely wish they would make the required changes to their teachings and rules. I cant see that happening until our Lord Jesus Christ returns and sets all matters straight. Thankyou so much again for this article and the time you and others spend putting these articles together. Your brother in Christ
Meleti, I really appreciate the clear and concise encouragement you convey, and I concur with your thoughts completely. For the awakening Christian I think it boils down to 3 things: 1. Individual personality 2. Conscience 3. Personal circumstance In our indoctrination as JW’s, we are trained to be bold about our convictions and expressing our belief that we are the only true religion. For anyone to challenge this is “fighting” words. Our “in your face” approach, stepping onto a stranger’s property uninvited, knocking on their door (often at a very inopportune moment) and while they wipe their eyes from being… Read more »
Whatever one decides to do should be done out of a clean conscience, with a pure motive and the right attitude. If one’ s decisions are based on these, Jehovah will never judge you adversely even if in the long run you end up being wrong. If you act out of a genuine heart desire you have nothing to fear from God.
All the best.
Appreciated your addendum Melenti. I think your original thought was clearly expressed. I have a friend who stays within the organization even though it repulses him. It is not merely for family. He is there for those that are discouraged due to guilt from the heavy load the Watchtower puts on them. He uses the Bible to show that what God says through the Bible, is refreshing. God doesn’t care if you are a low hour publisher. Being an elder or ms means nothing to him. He values us for what we are. He encourages those by being there for… Read more »
That’s quite a sobering account, Vincent. Thank you so much for sharing it.
Vincent, I agree with you that when a highly visible and devoted elder fades soon after resigning, a huge statement is made within the circuit, life friends and active family. They still see you as a sincere brother, though they fear what you’ve learned is so compelling, they can’t allow themselves to know it. I felt exactly this way about reading CoC (for 22 years). I so feared reading it because everyone active views “the book” and Ray Franz as the ultimate apostate. For many years, when she would read positive reviews about the book and Ray) I told her… Read more »
My path to enlightenment parallels yours. Apollos gave me a push by challenging 1914 and there followed a back and forth exchange that convinced me it was flawed. But from the beginning, my only source material was the Bible (and Bible lexicons from time to time). I read no literature that might be construed as “apostate” from a JW perspective. Only after I had arrived at the understanding that the organization was not Jehovah’s special possession did I read Crisis of Conscience and then In Search of Christian Freedom. I was so encouraged to see that the truths those men… Read more »
sopaterofberoea and Meleti: I agree that discovering things the way you did, really feels good. Both of you I’m sure were like me, you would do anything not to leave. You wanted to be proved wrong. The same happened to me. I was so excited to find online public archives of old Watchtower publications. I downloaded everything onto my smartphone. Needless to say, I discovered the lies and coverup. It hurt so bad. I thought I was being possessed. Even my children thought so. I went to the elders in tears telling them my discovery. Within weeks, 2 elders attacked… Read more »
Vincent, I think the documentation you provided the elders is so irrefutable…. it has stopped them in their tracks. If you’re not attending and the congregation is for the most part avoiding you, you aren’t a threat. Best for them to let a sleeping pit bull sleep. The problem for the GB (and their spokesperson the CO) is that if they do disfellowship you (or force your DA) word will spread, your story will get publicity in the circuit, and there may be others that have serious doubts that will contact you. This could spark a raging fire. Given your… Read more »
Thank you so much for this very balanced explanation & scriptural discussion of confessing Christ. I have read a number of your posts & am very upbuilt by your application of scripture in bringing to light & putting into words how I often have been feeling but not able to put these into words myself. It’s a pleasure to read & understand the scriptures in the right light. Keep up the good work. My husband & I have recently left & moved house & so far we have gone undetected by the local cong because as they don’t know where… Read more »
Greetings, I have learned to reconcile the situation as follows. In my mind I divide Jehovah’s Witness teachings into two categories. 1) the Christian way of living or moral code of conduct., 2) teachings or doctrines. When it comes to morality, and the Christian way of life, what is taught in the pages of the publications sets a very high standard, one that few religions if any profess or adhere to. For example we are repeatedly exorted to forgive one another freely, to love one another, to follow the course of hospitality, to desist from gossip and slander, to be… Read more »
Other religions are moral too. I can think of another religion where homosexuality is forbidden, as is drinking alcohol or coffee. Doing these things could get you disfellowshipped. Does that make them the right religion? Does sincerity of belief mean you are on the right path? No. People believe what they want to believe, or are trapped into believing for fear of being condemned. Some would say the end justifies the means, as it keeps people more moral than they might be if the “rules” weren’t in place. It is not, however, Christian freedom.
You may have missed my point. It is a case of teaching the right thing. That doesn’t mean individuals will do the right thing. For the most part the moral standard espoused by JW’s is correct. I willing concede that many do not apply those lofty standards but that is not a reflection on the teaching. Naturally this includes elders and CO’s etc. My comments were a generalisation. I understand that there are always exceptions. I know first hand how elders can be very duplicitous. It’s been said about elders that ‘ it ‘s like an old boys club. It… Read more »
Hello Anonymous, I have just found your comment as I’ve looked further down this thread. I couldn’t agree with you more. I am finding it hard to understand why there is such a focus on the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses when it is just one of the many who claim to be the only channel god is using. Surely ANY organisation that has an entity (be it a single person or group of persons) that sets itself up as an authority over others thus usurping the role of Christ is disapproved. How could they be approved of by Christ when… Read more »
I also used to appreciate the moral standard. Alas I think now that it is just a veneer. What really got to me was the lying by elders and circuit overseers, and then to see the elders and Geoffrey Jackson lie under oath at the Royal Commission. The no1 WT 2016 entitled entitled ‘Why be honest’, has this definition of lying on page 5: “Lying What is it? Saying something false to someone who is entitled to know the truth.” So it is only a lie if the person was ENTITLED to know the truth. Evidently elders, circuit overseers and… Read more »
Please don’t confuse a correct teaching or lofty standard with people’s inability or unwillingness to apply it. These are two seperate issues. You are correct of course some elders etc are less than truthful, but that is not a reflection on the moral standards. It is rather a failure on the part of the individual and those responsible for upholding those standards. While men are imperfect and pursue their own agendas we will always see this kind of abuse of authority. If we believe in God, don’t imagine for a moment that it won’t catch up with them in the… Read more »
Dear ANTONINVS the point I was trying to make is that the official teaching, as found in the no 1 WT for 2016 and quoted above, is also compromised from a moral point of view. The teachings themselves are not correct or lofty anymore, even on something a simple and straightforward as lying.
All the best too.
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate your time and comments. I take your point. My comments are a generalisation. There are always exceptions. Perhaps I should have said for the most part the Socitey teaches lofty standards. Which in reality are not their standards at all but are scriptural teachings. The point I was trying to make is that the average witness is not a bad person. Sure they have their inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies but their not evil. For the most part they try to live to some kind of higher moral code. And surely that is commendable. There are… Read more »
@antonivs But why do you need the Watchtower publications or meetings to teach you these “lofty standards” when you have the Bible?
Hi Allen. Of course you are right. No I don’t need the WT publications. The bible is enough and I make use of it. I have found that no one bible is 100% correct including the NWT. Therefore, I make use of a number of fine translations in order to make comparisons. The bible should be enough for anyone, after all it is the only book authored by God himself.
All the best
I agree with you 100%, and that comes to the whole point of Meleti’s addendum. Each situation and case is different and hence our decisions may be different but not wrong. Menrov commented that for our judgement and eternal life, the organization we belong to or associate with does not play a key role. Think of the parable of the wheat and weeds – they grow together until the conclusion of the system. My understanding is that all different Christian religions would have some wheat and much weeds and the separation can’t be made until the conclusion of the system… Read more »
I am sorry to hear that your reputation as a family was so badly damaged. I have seen this happen many times before. Even though we are admonished not to judge others witnesses on the whole are very judgemental. It is a product of the mindset that is encouraged and nurtured by the powers that be. That mindset that makes potential policemen out of every individual. It’s sad and troublesome. It almost reminds one of Nazi Germany. People informed on one another within families and believed they were doing a great thing. It is worrying that people can be so… Read more »
Soon you will be forming a congregation. Excellent!
ANTONINVS, I agree. Must of what is taught is straight from the Bible and has therefore a benefit to the listener. Often when reviewing a WT article, I can find no fault for a good part of it. I’m happy, because I don’t enjoy finding fault. When I do, it usually comes in the closing paragraphs as a misapplication of the truths revealed in the body of the article. Usually the misapplication has to do with supporting the Organization in some way.
The problem is that Christians are encouraged in Scripture to associate and meet together with like minded individuals. A Christian cannot be an island. This runs contrary to scripture. We can’t simply decide to withdraw to our family. The apostle Paul and Barnabas went to great lengths to set up many new congregations. The idea being that Christians should come together to worship. So the question remains, if JW’s are a poor option who is a better option? No one religion is 100% right! All have some degree of error to a greater or lesser extent. Where does one go… Read more »
I agree wholeheartedly. We must associate with one another, to incite to love and to fine works. When Paul and Barnabas entered a new town, they were the only Christians. But that didn’t remain the case for long. Soon their preaching created a small group which then grew. Perhaps my own personal experience might be used to illustrate what can happen now. When I started this journey five years ago, I had only one true confident, Apollos. However, I began speaking to other trusted friends. Some betrayed that trust. Some remain friends but have withdrawn. But some have come out… Read more »
Thank you Meleti for your kind reply. Much appreciated. It is sad that in many respects the so called modern day Christian congregation no longer resembles the first century congregation which employed a more organic approach. I think ORGANISATION has put an end to that. With organisation comes hierarchy, man made rules, and much that is the responsibility of the individual Christian is abdicated to the organisation. It thinks for you and decides for you. Efficiency soon replaces love and the very essence of everything that Jesus instituted is polluted. Christianity should set one free and there should only be… Read more »
So true. Rutherford had so many things wrong, but there was one thing he got right, especially if we add one word: Organized Religion Is a Snare and a Racket.
Just wondering, are you familiar with Deuteronomy 18:20 and Ezeckiel 13 from verse 6 onward? These two scriptures give us real food for thought in the light of the WT society’s repeated attempts at prophetic predictions.
Actually, I wrote a short piece on it here: “Why We Are Not False Prophets”
Hello Antoninvs, I have only just found your comment here as I’ve been working down the thread. I hope the following scripture can help you with the question you pose. The scripture is MATTHEW 18:20. I too felt strongly about being part of a large group of worshippers of Jehovah – it makes you feel secure to be part of a large group. However this scripture in Matthew keeps coming to my mind. While we were Jehovah’s Witnesses, we had no problem thinking about small groups of Witnesses in certain distant places and knew that although they were only few,… Read more »
Judith, Is it possible that your expressions (to encourage those of us who remain associated to officially to “cut ties” with the organization) stems from an emotional need to justify your own personal decision? Just because one person chooses the “hardline” path does not mean that others are wrong for not choosing that path. Consider this: We’re all judged by Christ at a future date, not now, correct? Then what is the rush? How many of “God’s people” are members of other religious groups today? Many I believe. The call for them to get out of Babylon occurs after Babylon… Read more »
Thank you for that, Out of Africa. While I continue to resist the impulse in my writing to refer to false teachings from the Governing Body as lies, it seems by their own mouth they are condemned. If they know a teaching is false (There can be no doubt on some of the teachings that they have had ample evidence of what the truth is.) and yet continue to teach it to us who are entitled to know the truth of God’s word, then they are lying. It is the same principle that Jesus applied to the Pharisees: “Jesus said… Read more »
Hi, it remains a topic that can generate many discussions. I do believe that for one’s judgment and eternal life, the organization one belongs to/associates with, does not play a key role. In the end, it is faith (and how one shows that in daily life) that matters. But the association one has, can have an impact on one’s faith, now and in the future. When that association has a negative influence on the faith one has or is presumed to develop in Christ or on how one can express that faith, it can be good to reconsider that association.… Read more »
I agree with those sentiments menrov . The witness religion in the end just fostered feelings of anger and frustration in me . I just had to get out . I just coudnt deal with it .
Menrov, Father jack- Amen to your comments. What can make a person angry, is that on all levels you are treated like a child. Morris and Lett want you to believe they are your daddy. “And remember, the governing body loves you very much.” The organization gives a wrong perception of what true humility is. We need to submit to this and that. Something doesn’t seem logical? Submit like a ignorant child. Be humble, “wait on Jehovah” (governing body). Do not run ahead of God (gb). All dignity is stripped from you in all aspects of life. Since I have… Read more »
In the last few years before we stopped going to meetings, our family found itself so embroiled in congregation politics, and so traumatized by the injustices we were suffering that 1. we had to limit association for the sake of damage control, and 2. we were so hurt and distracted that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah started to weaken. We stuck it out, even relocating so that the meetings would be more bearable, believing that it was Jehovah’s will. What a relief to discover that this is not Jehovah’s organization and we could now focus on serving him as… Read more »
My view echos Meleti’s thoughts in his comment to Willy….. if we’re nifty, we can employ strategy to navigate the minefield (stay under the radar). But, each step we take we realize (before we plant our foot) it could be the trigger that forces our coming out. We accept that reality. Those who have developed the skill of a “cautious serpent” can remain longer. When Ed Dunlap and Ray Franz began their research “outside the box” for the Aid book, they learned just how peculiar JW theology is. With each verse they read in commentaries and with close scrutiny of… Read more »
Good points, Sopater. One question though. In my copy, 2014, of the WT Lib on CD, the Commentary on James is still there. However, I don’t have the latest version of the program. Have they now removed it?
I just noticed Meleti, my mistake. It is there. Thank you for noting that.
It’s nice not to be the only one to goofs up from time to time. 🙂
I guess I’m remembering my contact at Bethel telling me the GB had some issues with the book after the fact. If memory serves, CoC mentioned that Fred Franz took issue with certain parts of the book. I assumed and you know what that means.
My take on denying Christ is epitomized by the Memorial celebration. “Take, for this means my body which will be given on behalf of YOU”. For one confessing union with Christ, I could not imagine possibly denying my union with him publicly any longer. It is quite hurtful, like Peter, denouncing Christ publicly out of fear. And he wept bitterly..
We are of one mind on this, Alex my brother.
I feel the same alex my conscience tells me that i just could not turn up at that memorial they hold and publicly refuse to partake i think its one thing to hold our own private memorial fair enough but i would rather not turn Up at all at the watchtower memorial to me it constitutes a rejection of christs body and blood ..but thats just my opinion . Others may feel different .
Thanks for the article Meleti. I was reminded of Romans 14:22: The faith that you have, keep it to yourself before God. Happy is the man who does not judge himself by what he approves.
We need not explain our reasons for others.
Recently I renounce elder designation.I decided to preserve my spirituality not expose myself to the false arguments presented at the meetings. I cannot continue to support a few things I know are wrong.So I’m moving away from meetings. I am trying to explain the truth about this organization for my wife, but not being an easy task.
TJBrother, Your last sentense is so true, but I hope with patience and love and prayer, our spouses eyes will Be opend too.
Thank you for your expressions of fraternal affection. Since I began my research on the internet , I found this site as a Christian refuge . I regret that my understanding of English is too limited to communicate more clearly with you . I know that I will be vilified by some to be backing away from the organization as being weak in faith , but as already said the important thing is to have a good name with God. About my wife she can not contest the truths that I have shown her , but she remains in the… Read more »
Social bonds! Yes indeed. They can be most powerful.
That is a courageous step, TJ Brother. Our prayers go with you. All of the initial founders of this site have gone through it, so we can truly empathize. By the comments of many, I see you are not alone in this decision either. We know how difficult the transition can be. The congregation will be perplexed. Gossip will spring up, though you’ll only hear the tiniest fraction of it, for the work of gossip is like that of termites, secretly eating away at the foundation of one’s reputation. You may lose your good name with the majority of the… Read more »
Vusi Hi Meleti! Enjoyed the article. I stopped field service a year ago. I only do informal witnessing using the Bible only. My wife knows everything I know on the . false teaching. She was disappointed, but could not diffuse the scriptural evidence. We are attending meetings. She still goes out on field service. I had stop conductng bible studies fearing to bring them to the cong for indoctrination. I do not have a family in. I only have in-laws. My family did not take the “truth”. This platform is very helpful. My faith was shaken badly until I discovered… Read more »
You know, I often find that those whose English is limited can convey more intense feeling by their words. Welcome, my brother.
Welcome brother, your words are powerful. You are not alone.
Meleti, thank you for a great article!!!! This article is an answer to my prayers on what to do in my personal situation. I became quite confused as part of me wants to leave the organization, but another part of me wants to remain for my husband’s sake. I truly appreciated your comments in regards to the Elders request for a meeting and some examples of how to respond. I may need to use this should I ever become on their radar. I’m in a really good position as I have a number of health issues that prevent me from… Read more »
I hope he gets the message. 🙂
Dear Dawn Ann, iTS just like you Told my story, I am in the same position as you and my husband is a ministal servant and loves to go to the meetings. My awakening is just since a few months and everything I discover I show and tell him, but he is not convinced yet and I pray to our loving God that He Will open my husbands heart for the real thruth. Ihave shed a few tears the last couple of months. I am also very grateful for Meletis websites.
Love to you sister Ann
HI Willy, it’s so nice to read your comment and know that you have the same hope for your husband too. I know the feeling so well, as I have shed many tears too, then got depressed, etc. This website surely does provide food at the proper time.
Much love Sister Willy.
How sad is that Dawn Ann when you feel you are at am advantage because you have health issues . Gods blessing sister .
Isn’t that the truth Father Jack, so pathetic!!! It’s funny you brought that out because I wasn’t even aware that I was looking at my circumstances in a positive light from that standpoint, LOL. Just goes to show how messed up one (meaning me) can become psychologically from this religion, I mean cult.
Thanks Meleti, it’s timely information, I myself already left “Babylon the great” a few decades ago, yes as was explained to me in the late 1980’s & scriptually, I was assured, I would be blessed… Ahh, yes it cost me dearly, friends family financially,etc. that’s ok, I did it for the Lord, because this is the “truth” .In the Last 8 months as I started to awaken if I can use that term spiritually, I was thinking to myself, here I go again. It wasn’t until I was reported for, presenting to a close friend different alternative’s to some of… Read more »
A most thoughtful comment, AR. Thanks for sharing it with us.
“However, too much emphasis on Jesus over Jehovah will get you noticed”. In Babylon are two beasts; one carries the mark of its image, projected on any who remain under its rule. Rev 13:14-18 The only way to remove this mark is through disfellowshipping, which is viewed as a spiritual “death” – a sin against the Holy Spirit in the eyes of the image – the ORGANIZATION. John 16:2 This really is the further step when following in the path of Christ. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we… Read more »
I find it truly sad that so much time is devoted to the politics of the supposedly spirit led Organization. Sadly, I too have spent an inordinate amount of both time and effort on the same topic, which unfortunately, became the focus of my attention for a number of years. This sapped my joy and weakened my faith, which has taken years to rebuild.
Meleti, thank you for this article, which hopefully will help others to know how to conscientiously co-exist without being unnecessarily being shunned.
Friends, listen and learn. Your Christian joy depends on it.
You are speaking in generalities with the implication that these apply specifically to what I write. Please, give us, the readers of this forum, some specifics, so that we can see if your counsel is truly relevant to what I have written.
Yes, I agree it is a matter of personal timing and intention, as each one is growing in relationship with God and seeking His will on these decisions. Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Christians show love for Jesus Christ by obeying his commandments, John 14:15. Most of these topics relate to Jesus Christ’s commandments to all, not a limited number (144,000), of those wishing to become his disciples. • Jesus is The Way. Jesus Christ said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. John 14:6 NWT. Acts 4:12. • Coming to Jesus . Jesus Christ asks people to “come” to him. What does this involve? Matthew 10:28; John 6:37. Coming (Greek Erchomai) means to commit oneself to the instruction of Jesus and… Read more »
Meleti, thank you for answering a lot of issues and questionsI have! But how to act, when someone shows interest and want to study THE Bible with you, you don’t want them to teach falsehoods, and do you bring such a person to the congregation, they are likely to find out that you don’ t teach(the falsehoods).
A valid point, Willy. One option is to study with the person and use only the Bible. Not report the study and begin associating with the person but outside of the sphere of the Organization. These are, however, all stop gap measures. There is simply no way to carry this all off for an extended period of time without encountering situations that will force you to take a stand. The organization routine is so rigid that any deviation from the norm catches the attention of the elders. If one has been a high profile Witness, the scrutiny is heighten. I… Read more »
Willy, A word of caution: Just remember that not everyone wil share your personal difficulties, and that everyone has a right to a clear, comprehensive and sympathetic presentation of Jehovah’s witnesses teaching. For any minister to offer an expurgated version of Jehovah’s witnesses teachings because of personal difficulties is to let your own judgment replace that of those you are teaching. The Bible is just as adamant against vigilante Christians as it is about false teachers. Neither Jesus nor the apostles opposition to the authorities of their time serves as precedent, since they themselves were the new authority in Israel,… Read more »
Thank you, and I Will teach and learn Real Biblical thruth, as my understanding is growing everything day. Agape
Yes . Thanks for that meleti . As you know i am one who does not associate with the congregation anymore . I had my reasons ,and i felt it was the best course for my sanity . However i feel that may not be the best course for everyone . Its certainly not good if we are going to be isolated especially from our family and friends and other true christians . I studied 2 john last week and noted that john said that he rejoiced that some of the chosen ladies sons were walking in he truth .… Read more »
There are other ways to find like minded ones to associate with. The Find Friends function on this site can help. I used the Scattered Brethren Network and we have found a family reasonably close to us who are very eager for spiritual association. (http://www.scatteredbrethren.org/) This family does not have a witness background and have come to a very similar understanding as us by their own research. They too did not have anyone to associate with as they don’t fit in with organized religion. It is important to associate: Prov 18:1, Prov 27:11, even if only 2 or 3 Mat… Read more »
Out of Africa: Have you attended any scattered breathren meetings?
I have. Maybe in general chat you can tell your experience or impressions. I would like to hear them!
Hi Vincent We are a bit isolated in Africa, so there are no Scattered Brethren meetings in our country. They did however put us in touch with an older couple near us. The man had a religious background but had left his church a while ago as it was just formalistic. His wife was not religious at all. She came into contact with bible teachings over the internet and they started to do their own bible study. What I find very interesting is that without any influence from the Witnesses: 1.They have come to nearly the same conclusions as us,… Read more »
Out of Africa: Personally, I agree with all of the core doctrines. If you go to General Chat, you will find a post by Hisclarkness called “I went to Church today.” There you will find my comments. I think if say, a couple or family came from the group to my house, it would be more encouraging and productive. But when you are in a group of say 20-30 people it is hard to simply discuss and contemplate what others have to say. Just my thoughts.
Thanks I will look. Could you please give me the link? I can’t find it on their main site.
Here’s the link: http://www.discussthetruth.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1317#p13686
Please add to that post. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
What an awesome article. It simply shows how one can remain in, yet confess Christ with no grounds to disfellowship. No one can argue with basic Bible truth! Having said that, for many of us, remaining in the organization simply to avoid disfellowshipping, would still raise flags. How so? When someone like myself, who gave 110% to the organization, and couldn’t talk about anything else, suddenly or even gradually slows down, the big question elders ask is why. The attention by elders and friends would be relentless. Family would wonder why I was still even associating with the organization. We… Read more »
VG, You are spot on. A suggestion on gracefully tip toeing out of dodge is to blame it on changed circumstances (ideally employment or business related). If possible, take on a new job or that your business is going to require that you travel for a time. I have a couple close elder friends that have used this approach and it has worked out well for them. Your job is then blamed for why your meeting attendance is slack, and why service hours have dwindled. One will be viewed as a weak, materialistic deadbeat, but I view this far better… Read more »
You might like to check this reference: “Christ is the source of truth. (Mt 1:17)”. Think you may have been wanting John 1:17.
Thanks OoA, it’s been fixed. No doubt you have saved other readers a considerable amount of head-scratching as they tried to figure out how the number of generations from Abraham to David established Christ as the source of truth.
Well, maybe it will lead to the date of Armageddon :-).
My husband just mentioned this verse about the generations today to point out that according to scripture, the length of one generation is 42 years.
as a serving elder who now knows the real jesus my first thoughts were to leave the religion but then i thought how does this help the brothers so i witness between doors with those i work with and make pointed comments in my public talks about being saved by faith and not by works i change many main points and ignore some sections long may i get away with it
Jabez, may Jehovah bless you for what you are doing and no doubt accomplishing. In our family’s case, we were already pariahs with little influence in the truth before we were awakened. So were sadly in a position of being ignored by most already and thus unable to influence any. My remaining ‘friends’ are already shunning me. I would have followed your course if things had been different for us, knowing that it won’t last and that one would be found out eventually and at that point be willing to lose all to make a stand. I feel it is… Read more »
i planed to take the emblems last year but chickend out but another brother did take them i went to see him with a book i had written in refuting many jw teachings only to find he had a book withthe same sort of things needless to say i will be taking the emblems this year
Wonderful. We all need encouragement from others from time to time. Even our Lord needed that on the eve of his death.
I am not sure that partaking of the emblems at the Kingdom Hall during the memorial celebration is particularly important. If one believes the whole approach of JW’s with regard to partaking the emblems is flawed, then partaking the emblems in a flawed commemoration would be meaningless. Why attach any importance to a fundamentally flawed ceremony? Would Jehovah value an action that is taken as part a of celebration that is defective? I’m not making a statement, I’m just posing the question.
All the best.
i understand what your saying about the jw version of the memorial but the scriptures do say gather together and this year there will be two of us partaking what a blessing that will be to share with my new found brother but even on ones own it could be viewed as fellowship with jesus and by the way thanks to all for your greetings i feel part of a great community here
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. I guess what I’m trying to say is: Would it dishonour God or Christ if one doesn’t partake during the memorial celebration at the Kingdom Hall?
All the best.
The answer to this is not as simple as it might seem. Should all Christians partake of the emblems? Absolutely. Of that, there can be no question because it is a specific command of our Lord: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) This command was extended to all Christians. (1Co 11:24-25) This commemoration does not have to be done at the Kingdom hall, however. For the past few years, a group of us have met privately to partake. Some have also gone to the memorial at the KH the next day. (For the past few years at… Read more »
Amen brother. Once we’ve reached the point of no return (confessing Christ) it is the partaking that matters. It doesn’t matter where we celebrate, our Heavenly Father and Christ know. It doesn’t have to be in the presence of a large group. It can be at home, after a normal meal. I concur that if we believe the JW arrangement is flawed, then attending and quietly observing (not partaking) is a conscientious option. To further Meliti’s point, to begin partaking at the KH after having been content your entire life to be a member of “other sheep” throws up a… Read more »
Absolutely spot on! If you aren’t seen as going through all the motions you will be seen as a fake. I couldn’t agree more. With JW’s there are no half measures. You must be SEEN doing in order to be believed and accepted. What a sad departure from true Christianity.
ANTONNINVS, According to the January 2016 Watchtower study article “The Spirit Bears Witness With Our Spirit.” you can be excelling in every area of worship, zeal, deep study, effectiveness in ministry, etc. and still be unworthy of being called. This article will be considered the weekend before the memorial, so it will be fresh in the minds of all active attending. Given paragraph 15 (below), I can only imagine the gasps of onlookers as they watch a brother or sister who has been just fine being classified as “other sheep” for decades, partake for the first time. They will surely… Read more »
Hi Sopater, You are right. I must confess I haven’t read that article as yet. I will be sure to give it very close examination. I don’t even know how to begin to describe an article such as the one you quote. The criteria outlined in the article is designed for one thing and one thing only. To create doubt in the mind of any contemplating taking the emblems for the first time. Anyone who takes the emblems after considering the points raised in the WT is going to feel very uncomfortable to say the least. All eyes literally and… Read more »
I might add, the above paragraph gives the congregation license to judge openly, to question motive, even limit association with anyone so bold as to begin partaking. The message of this paragraph is the GB wants to use congregation “peer pressure” as a strategy to discourage new partakers. They are embarrassed by the number continuing to grow (now 15,000). The underlying message from the GB is, if you partake…… YOU WILL PAY!!! How contrary this is to true Christianity. Any group that would denigrate one who sincerely confesses Christ in their heart…. is a group that follows an apostate teaching… Read more »
You are right it is becoming an embarrassment for the GB. Any teaching that is wrong and can’t be supported by scripture will eventually cause embarrassment. I think the best course of action is the old saying, give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. The GB has done so much damage to its profile of late that I don’t think they need any help. They seem to repeat the same errors over and over again. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Ultimately honest hearted Christians will see the inconsistencies.
ANTONIVS, Brother, I just want to commend you for having the courage to join us here, and I very much appreciate your balanced and heartfelt thoughts. I read every article and every comment on BP (and DTT) for 3 months before prayerfully mustering the courage to join in and contribute. I imagine there are many “lurkers” among us who are contemplating if (or when) they will join. It is a very big step. In my own experience, growing up JW was like being born on Gilligan’s Island. You grow up having never seen the mainland, all you’ve seen is water.… Read more »
Brother Sopater, you put in words how I feel about you all. Feelings like I have landed in a twilight zone in the last few months, vanished and feeling sane again through all of you hardworking brothers and loving sisters ease the pain. There are only so few hours in a day to read, understand make it my own: the real thruth of the Bible and not the JW version. A struggle everyday, but we are not alone, we have the mightiest Person and his Son on our side ? In fact we are very fortunate and blessed. Love to… Read more »
Reading your experience was like reading my own. I could not have put it any better, my life has mirrored every detail you yourself experienced. My word there must be a lot of us out there! Thank you for your warm words of encouragement. Much appreciated.
How about if one visited another congregation and partook there, where one isn’t known? It will send the numbers up and one can avoid some of the pitfalls you describe?
Whatever works for you. I can see merit in this course, as I did this myself last year. I felt that partaking where I was would have done more harm than good, but another congregation where I was known and respected for years would produce a more positive result.
It is certainly more meaningful if you partake among people who know and respect you. I sincerely hope it had the desired outcome. All the best to you for this year.
OoA, I do know of some who have done that. But are they counted? I doubt it. If someone completely unknown came to the memorial, partook, and didn’t hang around to identify themselves (i.e. where they are from and congregation etc) and the specific reason they are not attending their local congregation, I doubt the elders would count them. We are instructed to not count worldly persons, bible studies and disfellowshipped. How could could they confirm you’re not one of these? To be counted, the elders would need to feel comfortable why you attended in their congregation. They would need… Read more »
Good point. I forgot about that. Now here’s another pie-in-the-sky idea. What if every one of us didn’t go to the Memorial at all, but only held our own private commemoration? Longtime faithful sisters and brothers declining the most important meeting of the year!? What a message that would send. But alas, only a few would read the message correctly. Still, Jehovah isn’t calling everyone, but only a few.
*A MESSAGE ADDRESSED TO ALL * I sincerely believe there’s only one way to achieve anything worthwhile. The right way, the Scriptural way. I’m sure we all feel the same way. So I could be guilty for stating the obvious. Specifically with regard to our approach to the memorial and partaking of the emblems etc, I do believe any attempt on our part to outthink, outsmart, and circumvent difficulties that are encountered as a result of trying to do the right thing ultimately may make us no better than those who would deny us our Christian freedom. Maybe even worse… Read more »
It was tongue in cheek. I really wouldn’t support an organized (there’s that word again) effort. Each must apply his or her own conscience.
Thanks for the confirmation. I appreciate it.
my comments too were tounge in cheek about all partakers suddenly turning up but my real point is one could view those in the congregation as a ministry field to people who have been fenced off by their leaders i pray that jehovah opens a way
Yes of course. We have a whole untapped, untouched ministry, the comgregation of JW’s. It may yet prove to be the toughest territory we have ever encountered.
I was merely making an observation with my legal mind. I have no intention of going back to the kingdom hall and personally feel that partaking of Jesus flesh and blood is a deeply personal thing, not to be done in front of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Just a general observation. This is not a particular response to any comment that has been made formerly. I believe constant self examination is the key rather than focusing on what others may or may not do. Personal reassessment, fine tuning our conscience, motives and attitude. Trying to determine the propriety of one course of action as opposed to another can be a mine field. It can be hard enough to determine these things for ourselves, and we are aware of our own circumstances and limitations. We can never know all the circumstances and limitations that move others to make… Read more »
Hi out of Africa, I would say there are a number of points to consider before doing this. Some may feel if you don’t have the kind of faith, conviction and strength to do it the accepted way and follow protocol (at your local KH) then who are we trying to kid? Does one refraine from partaking at his or her local congregation out of fear? Importantly, is one being true to themselves? How would our Lord view it? Is it being completely honest with ourselves and others? If you are convinced that what you’re doing is right what would… Read more »
Greetings Meleti, Thank you for your insightful comments. You are right of course when you imply that the reaction among witnesses when they see one of their number begin taking the emblems for the first time is one of shock – horror. But at the end of the day there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. You can’t be reprimanded, or disfellowshipped. If you hold a position such as an elder or MS etc you can’t be deleted. The price one will undoubted pay is that the vast majority of those you call friends will think you are… Read more »
Well put, ANTONINVS
It is well put and the comment is correct , but in reality its really showing the religion and its adherants up for what they are .How on earth can a christian religion have such a massive problem with partaking of the bread and wine . I was told i would be stumbling people if i partook . I said what by obeying christs express command . I just dont buy it .If any have a problem with it they need to get real and start learning what christianity is really about .! sorry but i think thats true .
how would they react if this year all those who partake in private sudenly turned up and partook at the k h world wide it would bring the whole understanding of the memorial as taught by the GB into the light
True, but not realistic. I don’t believe It will ever happen in large enough numbers to make any difference. I could be wrong of course. But I think it would require a catalyst to spur such an enmasse action. I don’t see where that catalyst might come from. It could happen one day but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
Hi Jabez, You may recall that for many years the number of so call anointed hovered around 8000 to 8500. Then almost inexplicably it jumped to around 14000 plus. It didn’t significantly change anything. The Society published a question from readers to explain it away and it was back to business as usual for the average Joe. That is why I say it will take something significant to bring about change, not what may amount to little more than registering a protest vote by publishers that may be letting their emotions get the better of them by making a public… Read more »
Hi ANTONIN VS thank you for your response you have given me food for thought but what i like the best of all from you and others here too is your genuine concern i just want to give my best to jesus and my father while thinking of the highest good for my brothers in the true sense of Agape Love
No one can ask for more than that, that one should do all he can for others, most commendable. I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.
Hi Father Jack
That brings me back to my original point. If the way the commemoration is celebrated is fundamentally flawed why would anyone feel compelled to partake in it? What would it achieve?
Dear Brothers This thread points out the basic choice we all have in the bigger picture. If we live by conscience and try to follow Jehovah wholesouled, it will inevitably lead to conflict with the organization.
Hi out of Africa,
Very true. We will all be faced with having to make hard decisions sooner or later. It’s just a matter of time.
*HERE is something you may all wish to consider. This line of reasoning was not thought of by me. I read it, therefore the words that follow are not mine. “Jehovah’s Witnesses believe there is a little flock of 144,000 who get to go to heaven and a great crowd of others who are relegated to Earth. What does Revelation really reveal? First, the 144,000 and the great multitude are not two different peoples but two different ways of describing the same purified bride… Literally the 144,000 and the great multitude are comparable to the lion and the lamb. Just… Read more »
This indicates that Jehovah knows the number. That doesn’t mean it is 144,000 which is obviously a symbolic number representing a balanced, divinely appointed administration for rule. “. . .And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.” (Re 6:11) My attention is also drawn to the phrase concerning the great crowd, “which no man is able to number.” Therefore, the number is unknowable to us as… Read more »
Thank you for your comments, much appreciated as always. I too thought the quotation above made sense. I had never considered that point of view previously. It had never occurred to me.
Im not trying to put the spanner in the works here ,and i know when we compare scripture from other parts of the bible we could argue against this , but just reading revelation 7 through the simplist explanation would be that the 144000 stand for the natural house of israel and the great crowd stand for those saved from all other nations .