Why so much emphasis on this? Is there a Bible basis for this message? Does it show the end is near? Will our salvation depend on our loyalty to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the local body of elders? Or is something else becoming manifest?
The real theme of the Broadcast becomes evident around the 3:30 minute mark when Ronald Curzan, a Helper to the Teaching Committee, speaks about David’s attitude toward Saul by reading from 1 Samuel.
“He said to his men: “It is unthinkable from Jehovah’s standpoint that I should do such a thing to my lord, the anointed of Jehovah, by lifting my hand against him, for he is the anointed of Jehovah.”” (1Sa 24:6)
Ronald says that David humbly put aside his personal feelings concerning Saul and chose to wait patiently for Jehovah to act. Most Witnesses will understand the message to be that even if one has doubts about the direction the leadership of the Organization is taking, no one should lift up their hand against it, but wait on Jehovah.
This is as far as the Organization would want us to take this example. If we ask, “Who is Saul in the modern scenario?” the answer is obviously, the Governing Body. But Saul was a good king turned bad. Does that fit? Also, while David didn’t kill Saul when he had the chance, neither did he follow Saul nor obey him. David withdrew from Saul for his own welfare. Finally, Saul was actually appointed by a prophet of God, but who appointed the Governing Body?
Ronald next says: “We’ll soon be facing life changing events foretold in the Bible that will test our loyalty to Jehovah and his organization.” Presumably, Ronald says this because the doctrine of the overlapping generations proves that the end is very near. But could it be that we are already facing circumstances that test our loyalty to Jehovah?
Ronald next explains three areas wherein our loyalty is tested.
Loyally Defend Jehovah
Using the example of Elihu who came to Jehovah’s defence in the time of Job’s trials, Ronald speaks about being loyal when Jehovah’s name comes under attack. Who of us would not agree with this?
Now if you were preparing this part, what would logically be your second point? Who would come right after Jehovah when speaking of someone we must loyally defend when he comes under attack?
While I’m sure you are thinking of Jesus for the number two spot, the Governing Body has put themselves there.
Be Loyal to the Faithful Slave
Ronald says: “Second, we could be loyal to Jehovah by being loyal to “the faithful and discreet slave—the Governing Body.” So it is now very clear that in the mind of all in the Organization, “the faithful and discreet slave” is the Governing Body and the Governing Body is “the faithful and discreet slave”. They are one and the same.
I prefer to use the Governing Body, or GB for short, over “the faithful and discreet slave” when referring to the seven men at headquarters because they are definitely the body that governs Jehovah’s Witnesses. As to being a slave of Jesus that is faithful and discreet, we will let the facts speak for themselves.
Ronald tells us that “Jehovah and Jesus are using the [Governing Body] to feed us spiritual food, so we owe our loyalty to that [Body]….There is no perfect person nor organization on the globe, but as a long-time faithful brother used to say, ‘This is the best imperfect organization on earth’.” The validity of that brother’s assessment aside, expecting us to be loyal to an organization because it is the least bad of many choices is hardly a recipe for salvation. Saying it is the only true faith while all others are false is a binary choice, but being the lesser of many evils hardly qualifies as an endorsement from God.
Nevertheless, there would be no problem with this but for the fact that we are being asked for unconditional loyalty to this organization. Make no mistake. Loyalty here is a synonym for obedience and support.
Ronald continues: “The way we listen to and obey the [GB] has a direct bearing on the strength of our friendship with God. In fact, it means our very life.”
Ronald would have us believe that to be saved, we must be loyal and obedient to the Governing Body. He doesn’t see the contradiction in this. He acknowledges that they are imperfect and make mistakes, yet our salvation depends on our listening to and obeying their every word.
How can we be loyal to the Christ and to men as the same time? Inevitably, men will let us down. Men will misguide us. Men will tell us to do things that are wrong. That’s what comes of imperfection. This has already happened more times than we can count in the 100-year history of the Governing Body and it will happen again. In fact, it is happening right now in this broadcast.
The Governing Body Equals Jesus
Ronald asks: “But what if the Governing Body serves some spiritual food that is not to our liking. Or what if we do not fully understand or agree with a clarification of a belief?” To show how we should respond he refers to the book of John:
“60When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?...66Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him….68Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (Joh 6:60, 66, 68)
He then says that, “Peter’s loyalty was based on solid evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. His loyalty was evidence of his faith. That is the kind of loyalty we want to imitate today.”
The problem with this is that in the context of his talk, he is using this as an example of the kind of loyalty we want to display for the Governing Body. So he is equating the Governing Body with Jesus. If Peter’s loyalty was based on evidence that Jesus was the Messiah or anointed one, what evidence do we have that the Governing Body anointed as the faithful slave? We have only their word to go by. They are self-appointed.
Peter’s words work for us today, because Jesus is not dead. He is very much alive and he still has sayings of everlasting life. However, the Governing Body would have us replace Jesus and turn to them as those who now have sayings of everlasting life. If they say something that shocks us or that we might disagree with, no matter. We should be like Peter was with Jesus and say—as this passage is often misquoted—“Where else would we go. This Organization has sayings of everlasting life.”
Loyal to the Elders
Ronald tells us about the importance of loyalty to the local elders by saying, “Why then is it so important for us to strengthen our loyalty to our hardworking, loving shepherds?...As the great tribulation nears, our survival will depend on our readiness to respond to their direction as they follow the Governing Body’s direction. Our loyalty is not to men, but to Jehovah’s arrangement made up of imperfect, but loyal men.”
So we are not really being loyal to men, but to Jehovah’s arrangement. And what is Jehovah’s arrangement according to this broadcast? It is to have an organization directed by the Governing Body to give us life-saving direction when the time comes for the end of this system of things. We must therefore conclude that Jehovah will reveal his direction to the Governing Body, and they will instruct the elders, who in turn will instruct us. As the illustration to Ronald’s right at the time he relates this information shows, we will be hiding out in basements while God’s fury passes over when that time comes.
The Governing Body is Moses
To show how important our obedience to men is, the broadcast next plays part of the drama about Korah’s rebellion against Moses. The Governing Body in this scenario is Moses. They ignore the fact that the Greater Moses is Jesus Christ. (He 3:1-6) They also ignore the fact that this tactic has been used before to enforce compliance with the authority of men.
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses.” (Mt 23:2)
The scribes and Pharisees were not appointed by God as Moses was. Can the Governing Body show any credentials similar to those of Moses? He was a prophet whose prophecies never failed to come true. He wrote under inspiration. He performed miracles. On any one of these counts can the Governing Body show reason why we should view them as Moses?
Korah wanted the people to view him as Moses—the leader of the nation. He tried to replace God’s anointed one. The word “Christ” means anointed one. Jesus Christ is God’s anointed one. The Governing Body gives him lip-service—he is barely mentioned throughout the length of this broadcast—but they are really trying to replace him. This is evidenced graphically by the featured picture above. It was evident two years ago when they published the picture below. Again, Jesus is missing.
Why do they engage in this Korah scare tactic so often? The reason is frighten the flock into compliance. Their position is so fragile doctrinally and morally, that it will not stand up to scrutiny. So by making any hint of criticism equivalent to the rebellion of Korah, they hope to avoid having to explain themselves to the rank and file. This tactic has proven very, very successful. Consider the fact that, usually, when you tell a Witness about the child abuse scandal in Australia or the UN membership of the 1990s, they are wholly ignorant of the facts. In this world where gossip and news fly around the globe at the speed of light, Witnesses do not share these facts even with close friends. They fear being reported on as apostates. So they remain silent.
This is the so-called “faithful and discreet slave” that is demanding our full compliance lest we perish at Armageddon.
In Summary
If we had been shown a video like this 40 years ago, it would have caused considerable division. We didn’t even know the names of most of the Governing Body members back then.
But that was then. This is now. For years we have been slowly indoctrinated, little by little, to the point that if someone were to object that Jesus is not being represented by the illustrations above, he would be labelled an apostate. Imagine being called an apostate for trying to return one’s brothers to Jesus.
Jesus has been given a throne by God. He is the Greater Moses. The modern-day Korah wishes to sit in the throne of Jesus. He would want God’s people to believe that they must obey him to be saved. Like Korah, he claims that God speaks through him.
But the son does not take it lightly when he is not shown the respect that is his due.
“Kiss the son, that He may not become incensed And YOU may not perish [from] the way, For his anger flares up easily. Happy are all those taking refuge in him.” (Ps 2:12)
It is not an Organization that the Bible points to for a place of refuge, but to the Son of God. Those who will not bow before him will perish.
Archived Comments
We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.
Comment by 1984 on 2016-08-04 19:23:45
Thanks Meleti. This smacks of more desperation from the GB. They are responding in much the same way that the Pharisees did when Jesus exposed them for what they were, except today it is the internet which is blowing their cover. And as more and more people discover the truth about the truth and join the army of ex-JWs online, they are trying to increase the culture of fear and paranoia within the organisation - a real siege mentality. It makes me think of Steve Hassan's BITE model. They can't control the information anymore (the internet) so they are tightening the screws on behaviour, thoughts and emotions; demanding loyalty and using guilt, fear and family bonds to keep people captive. Of course, they are still promoting their own information channel and trying to make sure it's the only one JWs use - but they are losing that battle. The Youtube generation will not be suppressed or easily controlled. Maybe it is "this generation" that will see the end of the Watchtower organisation! One can only hope.
No doubt you've seen the recently released November Watchtower study article where on page 16, paragraph 9 they say: "Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food." According to Geoffrey Jackons this assertion is "presumptuous" - but there it is in black and white again, proving him a liar once again. In fact the whole article is a classic "bait and switch" tactic, as you've outlined before, replacing the bible with the publications and Jesus with the GB. And they do it here again in the August broadcast. So how does all that square with their assertions at the ARC (especially Terry O'Brien's,) that Geoffrey Jackson would have no relevance to the commission, when they continue to teach loud and clear and the GB is the FDS and the FDS is the GB, appointed by Jesus to direct the entire organisation? How much more relevant can you get? By their own words they repeatedly prove themselves to be liars, and we know who the father of the lie is. "By their own fruits" they prove themselves to be rotten to the core,
The good news here in Australia is that they are going to have to front up to the ARC again for round two when the commission investigates what efforts they have made to implement the recommendations of the ARC. Judging by their letter to all Elders from August 1st, 4 days ago, they are going from bad to worse, entrenching their already flawed policies. So hopefully this will put them in the spotlight again and shake a few more JWs from their grasp. It would also appear that the first round of testimony has brought a lot more abuse victims out of the woodwork who have had their chance to tell their stories to the ARC, and I have it on good authority that there is a civil action brewing. Meanwhile rumours abound that Bethel Australia is looking to sell up and go offshore before the commission can take action against them, but they are unconfirmed rumours at this stage.
Either way, it is clear that Watchtower is struggling to hide it's sins, be it abuse victims, false prophecies, false teachings, hypocrisy (like the UN membership) shunning, misogyny, faulty medical advice etc. etc. The avalanche is just beginning.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-04 22:50:11
That's interesting news about the ARC. I was wondering if it was all going to fizzle out or if there were going to be other things coming down the pike. It's good news that they are not letting the Org off the hook. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they closed the branch. When France tried to tax us, they closed the branch seemingly overnight and took the whole printing operation to the UK.
Reply by mailman on 2016-08-05 22:15:12
I have a question 1984, Meleti and other brothers here. Evidence against the leaders of the Society has piled up through the years. And as the GB never stops making pronouncements like this, they will be more on the defensive, will tighten their grips on the JW members.
The question is: How does a JW Christian's relationship with God and Our Lord Jesus Christ affected by the directions of the GB? Since there are vulnerable doctrines already exposed, how does this consequence impacts a Christian's standing before God?
As a Ministerial Servant, for 3 years now since learning the truth about the truth, it has been really a roller coaster ride. In fact, I deviate from the standard, canned preaching style to emphasize other important scriptures that emphasize our Lord Jesus Christ and the practicality of using the Bible.Reply by Colette on 2016-08-06 00:47:31
For me the WT teachings caused me to deny our Lord Jesus Christ - John 6:48-58. Note the context of this chapter: Jesus was speaking to the Jews, not a few anointed followers.
Reply by mailman on 2016-08-06 01:30:56
Yes Colette. Noticed the word used like "whoever" that feeds on the Son's flesh and drinks his blood has everlasting life.." Whoever does not pertain to anointed followers only. The GB limits the beneficiaries of the arrangement while Christ openly offers the provision for all. What a stark contrast!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-06 07:51:59
It's a question each has to answer in his own way and based on his own circumstances. The parable of the wheat and weeds and the command to "get out of her my people" both indicate that true Christians would be among the false up to some point in time. If I were a Mormon or Baptist and came to see that truth and to understand the false teachings of my church, how long would I feel obliged to remain in it? Sometimes we ask this question as JWs thinking that there is something special about our particular brand of Christianity, but if we frame the question as I just have, perhaps it becomes easier to answer.
Reply by mailman on 2016-08-07 01:35:12
Thanks Meleti for the reply. I am still finding a comfortable position for myself and my family. So far, status is to stay and look at the good and positive things in this Organization while staying alert not to ingest spiritual food that is not supported by the Scriptures.
Comment by Colette on 2016-08-05 05:05:31
As for the FDS/GB being the channel of spiritual food: It is helpful to look at the 'food' they have dispensed, such as the clap trap put forth in the Studies in the Scriptures, as opposed to serious bible commentaries produced by other individuals at the same time or even earlier - for example look at the Pulpit Commentary published 1880-97, in the public domain and the Darby synopsis of the old and new testaments by John Nelson Darby 1800-1882.
According to Raymond Franz, some of these commentaries were used as reference works at Brooklyn. And sometimes the new light given out by the org was in fact old light as it was already in the commentaries.
Quite clearly the spiritual food dispensed by the GB/FDS is woefully inferior to what is freely available in the 'world'. But the rank and file don't know that as they are petrified to look at anything not WT related.Reply by tyhik on 2016-08-05 07:26:20
I have always been amazed by the depth and quality of the Heinrich Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament. It's such a treasure and luckily it is freely available in English. It's some 150 years old, but is ageless.
I have been wondering what is the oldest book of the "channel" still in print. Probably one of the theocratic ministry schoolbook, the kids' Bible stories book or the songbook. I don't know a good way to check this so it is just a guess. In any case, there seems to be no heavyweight doctrinal book from 20th century still in print. This shows the quality of the food we are stuffed with.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-05 07:28:34
Good point, Tyhik
Reply by Colette on 2016-08-05 11:08:33
tyhik Thanks for the tip about the H Meyer commentary. I have e-Sword and it is one of the commentaries on this programme. I will use it more in future.
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-08-05 07:50:38
Too true. One thing I have really come to appreciate is how many scholars and references are willing to say 'we don't know' and simply offer different possible interpretations. A refreshing contrast to the GB!
Reply by mailman on 2016-08-05 22:24:19
Hi Collete, good morning. I think the WT-GB instructions not to read other spiritual-oriented sources is kind of limiting, not healthy for the brain - and for the soul. If we JWs have the truth, then the GB should let its flock compare their food from the others and see for themselves the results of consuming such food. No coercion, no pressure. Christ never forced anybody to follow him.
Comment by Nicodemus on 2016-08-05 06:58:00
Excellent summary. I think that this may be their most heretical broadcast to date!
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name [Jesus] under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. - Acts 4:12Reply by mailman on 2016-08-05 22:29:22
Indeed Nicodemus. I cannot remember Jesus or the Apostles exhorting Christians to exercise faith in an Organization or even the FDS. No scriptures to support, non biblical. I thought we just based our faith in the Bible?
Comment by Em on 2016-08-05 10:12:01
Question: why is it assumed that the photo shows Jehovah on the throne? Jesus is the king of God's Kingdom....when i see that photo I assume the person on the throne is Jesus....
Reply by Dove on 2016-09-02 00:09:32
I saw Jesus when I saw that photo... I thought he was our King?
Reply by Em on 2016-09-02 10:03:28
i did too! but apparently this is a depiction of the heavenly chariot which has clearly been said to be jehovah....that helped me understand why everyone sees jh and i see jesus....
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-02 11:33:07
On a related note, while the Watchtower refers to Ezekiel's vision as Jehovah on his heavenly chariot, Ezekiel never uses the word "chariot" in reference to his vision, nor does the Bible ever depict Jehovah in a chariot. The origin of the God-in-a-chariot teaching is pagan.
See Apollos' article here: http://meletivivlon.com/2013/02/01/origins-of-the-celestial-chariot/
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-08-05 12:58:21
Em, really? You really think an organization like the "Jehovahs" Witnesses, who routinely seem to ignore Jesus would put Jesus, not Jehovah, at the top of the pile? No offense, but respectfully, I just don't see it.
Reply by Em on 2016-08-05 13:15:13
I'm pointing out it is an assumption... and that it might be a preformed opinion that draws people to that conclusion about that photo. As you said in your comment, you believe it is not Jesus because of your feelings about the jw org.... I respect your opinion... but it's just something to think about.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-05 15:02:25
Em,
You're entirely right, we do need to be aware of our assumptions. However, if you look at the picture, it's of the "divine chariot" from Ezequiel. According to WT theology, who rides the chariot?
*** w91 3/15 p. 14 par. 4 Keep Pace With Jehovah’s Celestial Chariot ***
Under Jehovah’s direction, this worldwide organization has grown from small beginnings to become a powerful agency for proclaiming the decree to “fear God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived.” (Revelation 14:7) As Ezekiel did not raise up or appoint himself as a prophet, so God’s visible organization did not create or appoint itself. It did not spring from human will or effort. The divine Chariot Rider caused this organization to come into existence. Empowered by God’s spirit and backed by holy angels, Jehovah’s people have experienced such dramatic expansion that ‘the small one has become a mighty nation.’—Isaiah 60:22.
The divine chariot rider, needless to say, is earlier identified in the article as Jehovah.
Incidentally, there's an interesting article on the Celestial Chariot here.Reply by Em on 2016-09-02 09:58:28
oh i see! thanks so much. i didn't realize this was supposed to be a direct representation of the divine chariot...weird that they would use that since a lot has changed since then since jesus is now king....
Reply by 1984 on 2016-08-05 22:59:58
Hi em, it's a good question, and AndereStimme has provided a good answer. As further confirmation of this, the latest November 2016 Watchtower study states that Jehovah is the rider of this celestial chariot in paragraph 10.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-november-2016/highly-esteem-gods-word/
Of course, this entire article is more of the same - banging the loyally to Jehovah drum, but really meaning loyalty to the GB. And usurping Jesus' role as usual. It's disgraceful the way they misrepresent both but are quite happy to slap Jehovah and Jesus' names across their falsehoods for their own ends.Reply by Em on 2016-09-02 10:02:09
thanks for your helpful answer...i really didnt realize it was supposed to be the divine chariot. thanks again! that helps me understand why people view that as being jehovah.
Reply by mailman on 2016-08-05 22:36:52
Where is the photo of Christ in the heavenly part of the organization? As a King, he needs to be there.
Comment by hezekiah1 on 2016-08-05 11:14:32
Outrageous as always with the WTBS. They are constantly fear mongering and asking people to put them in the place of Jesus. I'm sure it's not a stretch to believe the WT will replace the bible eventually. And even Jehovah will be replaced by the GB. Their fear of being found out and their arrogance has never been more evident.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-05 15:21:43
Now now, Hezekiah, Jehovah and the Bible are too useful to be replaced, but rest assured the inconvenience of their "parousia" has already been worked around. Jehovah and the organization are synonymous, so what the organization says, Jehovah says. Anything Jehovah says, Jesus says too (on those rare occasions we let him make an appearance). And since the publications are 'provisions from Jehovah', they're the word of God for all practical purposes, except when it becomes apparent that they're not, in which case we have a standard disclaimer to explain away the problem.
It's obvious your lack of faith has caused you to underestimate God's organization.
Comment by william on 2016-08-05 13:14:39
Anybody interested in studying to history of the organization doctrine taken to such a rabid degree might want to read the May 1, 1981 WT. In Search of Christian Freedom gives the context of that article in the chapter Argumentation and Manipulation. By the time the article appeared, the WT had already silenced prominent Witnesses who tried to stick to the Bible. See also the Question From Readers in this issue: “Since the word 'organization' does not occur in the Bible, even in its original languages, what right do we have to say that God has an organization or to speak of God's organization?” The answer to the question attempted to show that the concept of organization is in the Bible even though the word is not. Me reaction at the time was that this was like saying that the concept of Trinity is in the Bible even though the word was not. The very presence of the Question From Readers shows that the doctrine had been questioned.
That article was preceded by an article in the March 1, 1981, WT which showed the Overwhelming Credentials of the faithful and discreet slave, which gave “a partial list of Scriptural and prophetic designations applying to or being represented in the remnant of Jesus Christ's anointed followers since the notable year 1919: ...” The first one is “Noah's wife. Gen. 7:7.” And the list doesn't get any better than that.
Comment by noblemindedthinker on 2016-08-05 15:10:34
Excellent write-up, thanks for taking the time to do it.
From Ray Franz - In Search of Christian Freedom pages 17-18
"Men can make no greater claim to authority than to claim to speak for God—even more than that—to claim to be his sole channel of communication to all mankind. To occupy such a position would be an awesome responsibility indeed, and one that should logically call for the greatest of humility on the part of imperfect humans if they were in fact assigned to fill it.
A fitting analogy might be that of a slave sent forth by a king to deliver a proclamation. If impressed with his own importance, lacking humility, the messenger might feel free to add to the message or make adjustments, while nonetheless insisting that all hearers should accept whatever he presented as a bona fide royal order. If people questioned him on certain points, he might become resentful, seek to awe them with his royal backing in order to override any doubts about the authenticity of his statements.
By contrast, a truly humble messenger would scrupulously avoid any alteration of what came from the royal source. He would not become resentful if asked for proof of full authenticity for what he said, nor would he criticize if some took steps to confirm that the message he presented was delivered just as given, free from embroidery or change. Rather than decry such investigation as an abusive lack of respect for himself (the mere slave), he would accept it, even welcome it, as evidence of the inquirer’s concern and deep respect for the will of his master, the Sovereign.
The Watch Tower Society repeatedly states that its message has life and death importance. The organization claims its message has been sent by God, the supreme Sovereign, for all mankind, with ultimate destruction as the outcome for disobedience. Some other religions take a similar position.
Surely, any claim of such magnitude should never go untested. In fact, the greatness of the claim calls for, not less, but more caution, more careful testing. Simple respect for God should move us, actually compel us, to make sure that the message is genuinely His, free from additions or alterations. The deeper our respect for God, the more conscientious our effort in testing."Reply by billy on 2016-08-09 17:02:57
Matthew 18 - Who is the Greatest?
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, asking, “Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?”
2So Jesus called a child, made him stand in front of them, 3and said, “I assure you that unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven.4The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child. 5And whoever welcomes in my name one such child as this, welcomes me.Reply by william on 2016-08-10 11:31:25
There was an article called Christian Greatness Comes from Serving in the December 1, 1975 Watchtower. All the scriptures in that and the other two study articles on ministry were used in context. But the person who wrote those articles was forced out of Bethel during the 1980 purge.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-12 13:41:09
Great article, thanks for sharing!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-05 15:31:35
Words to live by!
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-08-06 00:13:27
Wow, NMT, wonderfully stated!
Comment by lazarus on 2016-08-05 17:17:39
Nice Review once again Meleti.
Comment by john971 on 2016-08-05 21:13:32
The WT leaders realize that their power over the flock is starting to diminish. It seems that in every new WT study magazine, loyalty, aka obedience to men, is being pounded into the typical witness. But its not working.
The Scriptures pointed to the manifestation of the "man of lawlessness" and the "antichrist" in the last days. Imperfect men who set themselves up in a hierarchical governance over the flock of Christ, and seek to replace and usurp Jesus Christ himself as the "word" and the "truth".
I have found myself re reading our fellow brother Ray Franzs book, In Search of Christian freedom.
In a previous video "Beware of Deceit", Mr.K. Flodin related an experience related to a letter he had received about the September 10, 1910 Watchtower article,and what the WT wrote and believes regarding reading WT literature vs. just reading the BIble.
This very September 10,1910 Watchtower article, and question about Bible reading only vs reading JW publications were addressed by Ray Franz on pages 30 and 31 in Search of Christian Freedom. He copied the actual 1910 WT magazine material in his book for all to see. No funny business. And Ray answered the question that was apparently raised by Mr. Flodins apostate friend. Mr. Flodin did not answer.
It makes me wonder if this so called letter was made up after Flodin read Rays book? After all, the subject was on "apostates" and how deceitful they are? Hmmm.Reply by Colette on 2016-08-06 00:38:54
Hi John in fact, in usual WT fashion, this question is in fact taken out of the Question from Readers in the WT 1 July 1957. I am amazed at their deceit, even as the recent experience given by Tony Morris at the DC of Joshua who died because of refusing blood - it appears in the 1995 Awake 22 January.
Comment by mailman on 2016-08-05 21:59:26
"Also, while David didn’t kill Saul when he had the chance, neither did he follow Saul nor obey him. David withdrew from Saul for his own welfare." - Thanks dear brother for pointing this out. It opened my eyes. And for almost 25 years as a baptized and still active JW, I never saw this angle. What I only saw was the fact that David didn't kill Saul.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-05 23:46:31
It is an amazingly bad piece of reasoning, isn't it? If David's supposed loyalty to Saul is an example for us to follow in staying loyal to the GB, then the GB has cast itself in the role of a wicked king. You know, the same one who's trying to kill David. Who's loyal to Saul....That's problem 1, and it's a doozy.
Problem 2 is that David doesn't show loyalty to Saul, but to Jehovah, by not killing Saul. He doesn't obey Saul, he simply doesn't lop his head off. There's a difference.
Problem 3 is that David, at this point, has already been anointed by God's prophet to replace Saul. David's position, as he stands next to the sleeping king and decides to let him keep his head, is that he'll bide his time, wait for Jehovah to kill Saul and, in the not-too-distant future, take over the kingship of Israel while Saul's various body parts are pushing up various daisies. How, dear brothers, does this figure into the whole loyalty theme?
Really, if this is the best argument they can come up with, we can be sure that they're not getting any pointers from on high.Reply by mailman on 2016-08-05 23:59:55
Well explained bro. Thanks :)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-06 07:54:22
I'm sure going to bring this up the next time someone tries the Saul/David reasoning on me.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-06 12:45:07
The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it seems. Loyalty to someone who's trying to murder you. Call me weird, but I just have this feeling that my obligation to be loyal to someone is annulled when that someone tries to kill me in a jealous rage.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-07 17:00:14
I got corrected on this by a friend: The example of David not killing Saul is not used in the video as an example of loyalty to the GB, but as an example of "waiting on Jehovah". That's good as far as it goes, but once you try to make application it gets tricky in ways I'm sure they didn't dwell on. 'When those appointed by God to lead his people go bad, don't kill them, run away from them' would then be the moral of the story, which doesn't quite fit the standard narrative. But it's not quite as ludicrous as I thought.
Comment by william on 2016-08-06 00:00:47
From time to time commenters on this web site suggest that the WT is scared and that the organization is facing imminent collapse. I read the articles on this web site, but I hardly ever read the WT itself, because it wasted a lot of my life, because it slanders good people, and because the WT teaches false doctrines. So my comment may be ill-informed but I think the WT has exactly what it wants - growth. Long ago, in the early 80's I think, WT literature said that the reason for the decrease in publishers in 1 or 2 years in the 70's was because of apostasy. After they got rid of the “apostates,” the numbers went up. The WT looks at statistics and charts, not the Bible or common sense, to determine the spiritual health of the organization. The WT has experienced phenomenal growth since 1980. They are using a formula that has worked since then. If the WT ever decides it wants something besides an increase in publishers, like money, it will start looking a different kind of graph and use the Bible to scare people into giving more money. As soon as the GB likes the money-graph, it will conclude that the organization is spiritually healthy again, and will continue whatever scripture-abuse increased the donations. If my thinking is mixed up, I hope somebody will correct me. But I don't think they are scared or in imminent danger of collapse. They have exactly what they want and it's working.
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-08-06 01:50:48
Scared? No, I agree, I don't think they're scared; they're far too arrogant for that. But I think a shadow of doubt has crossed their collective face. I think, even if it's almost "subconsciously," if one can apply that term to a group, that hints of paranoia are being exhibited by them, as they continue to stress loyalty to their merry little band and emphasize practices like shunning for any "apostate" that so much as questions their doctrine, and associated power. Interesting, isn't it, how this too parallels Saul's trajectory in the Bible. As Saul became increasingly paranoid, deluded, and obsessed with David, his actions grew more and more desperate, to the point where he has Doeg kill the 85 priests of Nob. Why? He wanted them to be too afraid to support David. He wanted them to be so afraid that they would obey him (Saul) completely.
The more I think about how the GB compares themselves to Saul, the more I drown in the sheer irony of it all. It's funny in a way, but also rather depressing at the same time. As Meleti intimated in the opening of his article, I have no doubt that many (most?) of the JWs that view this video will simply shake their heads in agreement that "we should be loyal to the GB just like David was to Saul," and go no further with the analogy than that. I can only pray that at least some, such as ourselves, will observe the sheer fallacy of it all. Some, hopefully, will see through it and realize that loyalty to Jehovah through Jesus is what matters, not to seven men in Brooklyn who seem to have placed themselves as the Greater Moses. Continuing with the analogy we read David's contemplation of Doeg (and by extension Saul?) in Psalm 52:6-8:
6 The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at you, saying, 7 Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others! 8 But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever.
If we, as believers, gain our nourishment from God, versus men, we will be green and fruitful, just as the olive tree. I can only pray that others in the congregation will eventually see this.Reply by john971 on 2016-08-07 16:15:10
I say "follow the money..show me the money". They want your money, and you show your loyalty by giving more and more of it. Financial problems will likely cause them more consternation and concern than anything else will, and a real case for worry can be made.
How can they ever make up for that lost source of revenue from when they were mostly a printing and publishing company?
The old WT formula of printing literature and receiving "donations" is long gone. Their money train has been derailed. They have reassigned or fired 100s of Bethelites worldwide, and special pioneers and circuit and district overseers. Delayed or cancelled many worldwide building projects. The take over of locally owned Kingdom Hall properties and congregation surpluses in bank accounts, but are still requiring a similar monthly congregation donation?
Their once mighty printing money maker is a shadow of its former self. The Watchtower and Awake mags published 6 times a year each intstead of semimonthly each. They are really nothing more than tracts now. Having to settle countless criminal child abuse cases. The fact that we now have bank card and ATM machines at Assembly Halls. The constant beating of the drum for more and more donations, and sell everything for the WT.
Is this a "speeding up of the work" that we all used to read about in the literature and hear at the Hall?
But many JWs are tapped out themselves, and are at a loss about everything never being good enough for the GB hierarchy. Its coming up again in a future WT study article in a month or two. Leave us your riches, obey, but its never enough.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-06 13:13:03
It's hard to say what cards they're showing and what cards they're not. Growth, theoretically, should be exponential and instead it's getting flatter and flatter. The equation "more minions, lower growth percentage" should be worrying them. If the calls for greater donations really indicate a shortfall, then that would be worrying to them as well. Since the whole enterprise hinges on the rank and file continuing to accept their authority, you can see why dissenters might have them at least concerned, if not outright scared.
Imminent collapse? Who knows, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. His Infallible Holiness, the Vicar of Christ, has been making grandiose and blasphemous claims for centuries and still wields enormous power and wealth. Herod's toadie subjects yelled 'a god's voice, and not a man's' and he got struck dead in an instant. It may be cliché, but the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Comment by Menrov on 2016-08-06 11:07:47
The theme is becoming THE MOST IMPORTANT topic it seems: Obey US (gb, not capitalized on purpose). More and more I find the it difficult to observe and not being able to do much about it other than provide input on this and other sites (like DTT). The recent letters about the new child abuse policy and how the WT Legal Department will be involved, Is but one example of how the different classes in the organisations work.. It says that the legal department can act to protect the elders and the organization. But what about protecting / defending a publisher who is attacked, losing about all he has because he/she is defending "the organization (Jehovah)..."? And which money is used for these legal services? I really would like all ex- and woken up JW's to jointly write a letter to be published in various major news papers and in which a number of WT policies and doctrines are published that have a negative Impact on the lives of people (its members). A letter that will make public and hopefully make many awake. We have seen what can happen if people almost blindly follow their religious leaders. I have never seen a positive outcome. Truly, I am concerned.
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-08-06 11:47:00
Great post Menrov.
"More and more I find the it difficult to observe and not being able to do much about it other than provide input on this and other sites"
So agreed - it is incredibly frustrating, isn't it?
"Truly, I am concerned."
As am I, my Christian brother, as am I.....
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2016-08-07 04:09:57
Good article again. Have you noticed how the scriptures have been changed to promote loyalty. Mostly it
is the changes from loving kindness to loyal love. An examination of the It book under kindness reveals
the meaning of the original Hebrew word. yet despite all that Micah 6:8 gets changed to "cherish loyalty", although the footnote refers to "loyal love". Why change that one lovely verse against all reason, and then make it subject to a Watchtower earlier in the year and a number of mentions at the beginning of the conventions. The Hebrew word appears 245 times in the scriptures and consistently means the sort of kindness that attaches itself until its purpose is complete. That is how Jehovah and Jesus are. it is loyal love. But on its own as loyalty ? No one else has used that word to translate the Hebrew. But it is stage 2 to then promote the quality to that of loyalty to men. I am sure this has all been said before, but it was important to throw it in here.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-07 10:04:59
You're quite right, Leonardo, and the thing that makes it worse is that Loyal Love is the type of love that Jesus said would identify his disciples. Loyalty, on the other hand, is a neutral word. It isn't good nor bad. It's morality is determined by the circumstances. The demons may well be loyal to Satan, but that doesn't make loyalty good. We can be loyal to the organization, but again, that doesn't make loyalty a good thing, especially if it takes us away from God.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-08-07 17:25:15
I watched the video only to the 4 minute mark. The very first thing I said to myself was: they're using the worst example to prove loyalty! David maybe didn't kill Saul, but he also didn't support him! He distanced himself from Saul and let Jehovah's take care of punishing him. So, the lesson for us all is that if we see the organization doing something wrong, refusing to humbly apologize for causing suffering to thousands, teaching false doctrines, twisting the scriptures, disfellowshipping those that might disagree with them on a few matters where there is solid biblical evidence....then we should be loyal to Jehovah and Christ by distancing ourselves from the organization and let Jehovah and Christ punish them in due time. The lesson for us is strikingly obvious.
I have a story about loyalty and obeying those in authority, "right or wrong." I served at a branch years ago. There was a dirt road close to Bethel and the trucks passing by would kick up a lot of dust, causing more work for the housekeepers. The brothers on the Branch Committee asked me to dump drums of waste oil from the vehicles on the road to keep the dust down. Bad idea. For one, waste oil is cancer causing and should be disposed of properly or recycled. Second, the well for our drinking water and that of the community was within meters of where they wanted me to dump the oil. I explained very respectfully that I could not conscientiously comply with the request and stated the above reasons. I said that if they really wanted it done, they would have to ask someone else, but with the knowledge I had of waste oil, I felt is was wrong. The brothers became infuriated that I wouldn't obey. The next day in morning worship, a member of the Branch Committee that writes articles for the society gave a big speech about obeying. Here was his reasoning. He cited the example of the illegal census that Satan (or some other evil person) influenced king David to do (1 Chron 21). David asked Joab to carry out the census. Joab conscientiously objected, stating: "Why should my lord want to do this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel." But, as the scriptures state: "the king's word prevailed over Joab" and he eventually complied under pressure.
The brother subsequently used this Bible account to show that we might have objections to requests from those above us, but we are expected to comply so as to be loyal to those appointed by God. He even went so far as to say that although the individual members of a committee are imperfect, when they meet together under the direction of the holy spirit, the HS makes sure that the decision taken is perfect...AND THIS BROTHER WRITES FOR THE SOCIETY! (Is anyone surprised? : )
I guess the brother conveniently forgot that the census was ILLEGAL and promoted by SATAN. It was clearly wrong in God's eyes. Joab did the right thing to object and should have stood his ground. Unfortunately, he caved. Can you imagine how Joab felt later when 70,000 died as an indirect result of the illegal census?.... and he had a part in it! David's emotional response in vs. 16,17 give a hint of how one feels after having insisted on doing something wrong and others suffer. Who would free Joab of a pained conscience after so many died? Certainly he regretted obeying the anointed of Jehovah in a matter that was clearly wrong.
On the flipside, King Saul's servants in 1 Sam 22:17 refused the order of the king to kill the priests at Nob. It's true that Saul found someone else to do his dirty work (Doeg), but the king's servants had remained loyal to Jehovah, not the "anointed one of Jehovah" who was clearly in the wrong. So, it is not a matter of obedience to those in authority. Such obedience is not loyalty to Jehovah. Loyalty to Jehovah is shown by being obedient to Christ and having a clean conscience before him that will judge us. Being obedient to him will NEVER result in regrets or a pained conscience, because what Christ asks of us is never wrong. To the contrary, it brings joy and refreshment as we each obey him and remain in union with him. As we do, we remain in union with each other, avoid clashes and avoid regrets.
So in the end, the list just got bigger of Biblical examples that have been misapplied and twisted by the organization to re-inforce blind obedience to the GB.
Much love,Reply by william on 2016-08-07 19:27:57
Yehorakam: Even if a prominent member of the branch publicly humiliated you or gossiped about you, some Witnesses, unknown to you, might have sided with you. I have several stories like that and I will tell just one short one: In late 1974, a Witness at Bethel was trying to convince me that I didn't need to obey the pedestrian crosswalk law in New York City. He used as an example that some Witness at Watchtower Farms refused to used insecticide or herbicide because it bothered his conscience. He tried to make that young Witness seem like a fool. The illustration backfired because I immediately sided with the supposedly bad example. Nobody should violate his conscience, especially when they have a good reason like you and that Witness at Watchtower Farms. That young Witness who refused to spray the poison has no idea that I later took his defense. As I said, there are several other examples besides this in which I defended or imitated the person who was humiliated or gossiped about, and this probably remained unknown to the person who was wronged. So others might have followed your example.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-08-11 16:34:13
Thanks William. The truth is, I only spoke to one other brother about the matter, a brother that was in another branch. So the only ones that knew about it was the branch committee and myself (and the poor brother who they eventually asked to the job). I wasn't interested in rallying anyone to my side at the branch and create a division. I was taking my own conscientious decision and it would have been incorrect to influence others to take my side of what was a conscientious decision. So, when the morning worship talk was given the next day, no one knew exactly why the brother was harping so much about obedience so much. The brother did it to kind of make a public statement about obedience so others wouldn't do the same, and to put me in my place, but he didn't mention my name or the issue of the waste oil. Just a lot of harping about obedience regardless if we feel comfortable obeying or not. I don't know if others eventually found out and took my side. I didn't go what I did to get others on my side. But, I suppose it's a nice thought to know that you might not be alone and maybe you aren't the 'crazy one.' : )
Reply by Colette on 2016-08-12 00:02:09
Yehorakam, your attitude sounds the same as ours. When we found out about an elder's designing guidance systems for missiles, we took it to the elders in our cong and trusted the brothers to deal with it, which they did by leaving him in his position. And never said a word to anyone. When we found another elder had a criminal charge laid against him for fraud, same thing again. When I was assaulted in the second school by an elder, same thing again.The only thing that changed was that we became very unpopular with the elders. We didn't realise that they have a 'get out of jail free' card for wrongdoing.
And so we unwittingly, for the sake of not reproaching Jehovah and to keep peace, assisted in covering up their wrongdoing and helped them remain in their positions. Maybe that is the whole problem with the org: crooked leaders and many sincere people who are striving to please God. No wonder Jesus condemned the religious leaders the way he did. It is very easy, albeit sad, for them to take advantage of unsuspecting sheep who want to please.
Comment by Mike Felker on 2016-08-12 16:51:27
Thanks for this article Meleti. I was hoping to get your thoughts on Acts 21. Oddly, i've just never heard this appealed to as an example of the Governing Body. But I noticed you didn't address it above in your article directly. Was there a particular reason for not mentioning it? The presenter seemed to have spent around the same amount of time on this as he did other topics. Anyway, just wanted to get your take on it and why you don't think it's a good argument or example of a Governing Body. My take is that Paul agreed to their direction and could have just as easily chosen not to agree to it. After all, it was not necessarily an apostolic decision (other than James being around) but rather one made by the local Jerusalem elders. If Paul *could have* done otherwise, then this makes the Governing Body concept fall apart, at least with Acts 21. Do you agree and/or have a different approach? Your insights would be greatly appreciated.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-12 17:15:37
Hi Mike and welcome.
Thanks for bringing this up. It gives me a chance to explain.
I had considered devoting attention to that, but the reason I didn't was that I didn't want to get into a discussion that would have meant accepting their premise that there was a governing body in the first century, something I do not believe to be the case. We actually devoted a lot of research to this topic on the original site.
For example, this article by Apollos. Also, if you go the home page of that site, click "Jehovah's Witnesses" under the Category heading, then click "Governing Body", and you'll see quite a few articles on the subject.
The main topic for me was the replacement of Christ, and I didn't want to distract the reader's attention away from that.
Of course, even if we do accept the premise that there was a first century governing body, they failed to make their point with the Acts 21 account. The elders in Jerusalem didn't ask Paul to do anything against his conscience. Their plan was flawed, because it was based on fear and they were seeking appeasement with the authorities. This highlights a basic flaw in giving unconditional obedience to men. The results of that ill-fated decision are now part of Bible history. Nevertheless, if one is in the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and is asked to do something that doesn't entail a compromise of Bible principle, why not do it? That isn't the course of loyalty, but of cooperation. It would be like the police directing us to drive or park somewhere, or the government asking citizens to cooperate in some civil action like a cleanup after a natural disaster.
Using the example from Acts, which is an example of a failure of human direction, shows how desperate they are to try to find any scriptural support for their unscriptural demand for loyalty to men in place of Jesus.Reply by Mike Felker on 2016-08-14 08:54:47
Thanks Meleti, that was very helpful!
Comment by john971 on 2016-08-25 16:20:03
They leave Jesus off the list of the "Earthly Part of Jehovahs Organization" rightfully so. He is in heaven with God. And seeking to replace Christ yes, absolutely they do.
However to be accurate with the picture, Jesus is shown in that picture/illustration at Gods right hand and is not missing from the picture is he?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-25 16:49:35
You must have better eyes than I. I don't see him. Besides, he is not pictured in Ezequiel's vision upon which the top part of the WT illustration is based.
Reply by john971 on 2016-08-26 11:44:46
I suppose that I must, because he is shown in that illustration that you posted in the originating article, and the picture must be from a JW publication. Ezekiel vision aside. I see Jesus there in that illustration, as well as God, at the top on the throne. Neither Jehovah or Christ are mentioned on that page.
Post a picture of this Ezekiel vision then, where Jesus is not shown.
Don't you see the figure with the blue/green robes on? Its as clear as day really. He is there at Gods right hand.., is he not?. That would be Christ.
If we want to try and persuade JWs to see the light, we have to point out facts. I mean its there for all to see in that picture.
A small matter, but important.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-26 12:09:42
I had to use the Windows Magnifier program before I could see anything like what you are describing. Even then, to say it was a figure dressed in blue/green robes as clear as day, seems to me to be stretching a point. What I see there is the right armrest of the throne.
Based on our readership, thousands have seen this image and no one has interpreted that part of the drawing to represent Jesus, so could it be that you are seeing what you want to see.
Since Ezekiel's vision does not depict Jehovah with anyone else, if the Governing Body wanted to depict Jesus in his rightful place, they would have had to draw him above the heads of themselves, above the four living creatures, but below Jehovah.Reply by john971 on 2016-08-26 12:45:37
I'd say its a clear case of letting ones own personal biases, as legitimate as they may be, blind us to what is clearly depicted in the illustration you posted. I didn't need a magnifier. Yet you used one and say you didn't see it? You didn't see a representation of God on the throne there either I suppose? Its bizarre. I see him depicted there on the throne with Christ at his right hand.
Christ is in heaven with God. He or God aren't on their "list" of the "Earthly organization" and haven't been "excluded", because neither Jehovah or Jesus are part of the earthly part of Gods organization as JWs define it. They don't belong on the earthly list because they are in Heaven!!.So lets get that correct at least.
I really didn't take much notice of the picture in the beginning. The fact that the JW organization diminish Christs role is the main issue for me, and that's clear from most of the printed and spoken material they put out there.
However, to say that Christ is not pictured in that illustration or has been excluded from their list of earthly domains incorrectly, is disingenuous at best. Especially when we evoke the history of the Beroeans to check if things are actually so. God and Christ don't belong on that list.
When you make an error, own up to it. Sorry for you mate. Its just denying what is there.
JWs do the same thing all the time. Lets be better than they are.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-26 13:14:51
Rather than get into a pointless discussion about what you claim is clearly there and what I claim is clearly not there, perhaps we could ask our readers to weigh in on this. After all, since I'm being accused of not owning up to an error, I would like to know if the accusation is warranted.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-29 12:51:55
There's nobody next to the One on the throne. The blue/gray is the throne itself.
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-09-05 21:02:33
I'm not seeing a figure of Jesus in that illustration either. I see the arm of the throne, that's it.
Reply by tyhik on 2016-08-26 18:38:40
john971. Now that you have pointed it out, and after zooming in and out several times, I agree that there might be Jesus there. But then in white robes. The blue/green is his throne, as is the throne of Jehovah. See the other blue/green armrest of Jehovah's throne.
What a picture. Reminds me reading the images from clouds.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-26 19:47:03
There are two other things we must bear in mind. 1) Ezekiel's vision is not of Jehovah's heavenly organization. That is a pure and self-serving interpretation of the Society. The Bible never speaks of Jehovah having an organization, heavenly nor earthly. 2) Nowhere in the Bible is Jehovah depicted as riding a chariot. Another fabrication of the GB and one that has its roots in pagan mythology.
Reply by john971 on 2016-08-28 11:52:09
Okay, but your assertion that Jesus was wrongly removed from their list in that illustration you posted is plain wrong. Another illustration and list could have been used, where Christ has been clearly excluded or wrongly removed from. There must be 100s of them. Its just a poor/incorrect example posted.
He doesn't belong on that list. He is in heaven not on earth. You tell/show that even to a JW, they will laugh at that assertion. and they would be correct.
Its your business if you can't/don't want to see whats there in the illustration you posted.
The point is, JWs will see it because its there. I want to help JWs, especially my family members see the light. If you want to use their publications against them, then get it correct or you'll be doing more harm than good.
Many others have their own motivations, including those online seeking praise and doing well/winning polls on websites,and constant debates that accomplish nothing in helping those who want to see the light.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-28 13:13:07
john971, to ensure we are talking about the same thing, could you do a screen capture of the portion of the illustration where Jesus appears and email it to me at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com? That would help me greatly to understand your point.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-08-29 13:01:43
john971,
You're absolutely right that we can't say Jesus was removed from the list in the picture, any more than we can say that Jehovah was removed from it, since it is a list of links in the chain of authority in the so-called 'earthly part of God's organization'. The article, in fact, never says that Jesus should have been on the list, but the blurb gave that impression. It's been fixed. Thanks for the heads-up.Reply by john971 on 2016-09-03 16:32:55
The author of the article did write this, cut and pasted here moments ago:
“Why does the Organization continue to minimize Jesus role, even to the point of removing him from lists” ??.then the list posted by the author appears in the article..leading any reader to believe that Jesus has been removed from this list?? . I mean it there for all to see right now. This quote appears in the title caption of the article.
You write: The article, in fact, never says that Jesus should have been on the list, but the blurb gave that impression. It’s been fixed.
I just cut and pasted this from this website at 4:10 pm local time on Sept.3/2016, so how can it be said that in fact, the article never says this?? What exactly was/has been corrected? You mean you're just going to scrub it and change it then? Didn't the WT do the same thing with their Watchtower and Awake bound volumes after the original magazines were already out there?
Has the author offered an apology for misleading the readers on this website regarding the list he posted? No! Doesn't the WT GB, and Writing Dept act similarly when errors are made? Post another list that Christ has been removed from..there must be lots of them.
I am quoting from the caption/heading in the index of Bereons.net. from the original posting here with what I just cut and pasted again, as it appears on this website Mr. Editor.
On the second issue, I do see Christ seated at Gods right hand in the picture the author posted. I have asked various JWs about this and they see him there too. In excess of 15 JWs. We all see or don't see him there. Okay. We can apparently interpret the picture differently.
The first point about the removal of Jesus from the list posted by the author is not open to interpretation.Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-09-03 17:40:22
Hi john971,
I just checked the title and blurb that comes up and here it is:
Replacing Christ – August 2016 Broadcast
by Meleti Vivlon | Aug 4, 2016 | JW.org Videos | 73 Comments
Why does the Organization continue to minimize Jesus role, even to the point of omitting him from a drawing showing the channel of communication between God and men?
I don't know how you're still seeing the original blurb, but please be assured that there is no monkey business going on and that I, in good faith, acted on your observation and made the correction when I said I made it. If for some reason you can still see it, then there must be some glitch. That's not my area but I can assure you it will be looked into.Reply by john971 on 2016-09-03 20:19:58
I appreciate that you corrected the matter in good faith. I accept that of course.
How about the author of the article? He chose not to address the issue of the list directly in any of his replies to me on this forum, after it was brought to his attention.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-03 21:30:41
I was using the word "list" to represent that which the illustration depicts. It depicts an organization authority structure or hierarchy, from the rank-and-file publisher all the way up to Jehovah God. So please understand that I meant "list" to refer to a listing of all the positions of authority from Jehovah down to the congregation publisher. When I said that the Governing Body has removed Jesus from that list, I was viewing the list both Scripturally and organizationally. Scripturally, Jesus is the head of the congregation so in any authority structure depiction or listing from Jehovah down, he should appear below Jehovah, but above men. This position of authority is also one that the publications have recognized. Now while I may not agree with the various stations of authority depicted in that illustration, I do acknowledge that from a JW Organizational point of view they are all valid. I also know that the publications acknowledge that Jesus comes between men and God.
Therefore, in keeping with the teaching of the Organization, Jesus should appear in this list, but he does not. So he has been removed. In what sense? Not in the sense that he was originally in the graphic or illustration, and was removed or deleted from it. Rather his position of authority between God and men is found in the teaching of the publications. The graphic or illustration represents that teaching. It depicts what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. So by not depicting Jesus where he should be based on JW teachings, the artist and those who approved his artwork for publication, have effectively removed Jesus from the list of stations of authority without an overt statement. In this way, and in many others, they are slowly marginalizing Jesus in the minds of the flock.
So I stand by my statement that he has been removed, but I can see how wording it as I did can cause confusion, so I apologize for that.
Andere, acting in good faith, changed the excerpt that goes out by e-mail as an article teaser, hoping to avoid further confusion. I thank him for his efforts.
As for Jesus appearing in the illustration as you allege, I do not agree with you, but I'm willing to be proved wrong. Previously, I asked you for a blowup snippet of the area in the graphic where you claim he appears. Rather than continuing to insist he is there, might it not be more advantageous to forward me the proof I have requested? I assure you that if I am wrong about this, I will issue a retraction, but I'm sure you would not want me to do so on your say so alone.Reply by john971 on 2016-09-03 22:06:37
"I was using the word “list” to represent that which the illustration depicts."
Yes, I understand that explanation. That point could have been made in the original article, and I acknowledge what you were driving at now. But, I do see Jehovah and Jesus in the illustration. So even with your explanation of "list", I would have to disagree with it. But then, I see what I see. Others may not.
But I'm okay with that. There are other illustrations that they've used in the past, where a better case can be made to make your point. And on that point, regarding minimising or excluding Christ, and his position of authority over the Church, we are in complete agreement.
On the subject of the illustration, presenting you with a blow-up snippet of where I see Jesus wouldn't accomplish anything useful in my opinion. We are all looking at the same illustration. I don't have to expand it to see Jesus there, even though I have magnified it myself.
We can agree to disagree on what we see there. Its a small matter.
Reply by john971 on 2016-08-26 20:01:43
Jesus at Gods right hand at the present time in heaven. Seems consistent with Christian scripture to me.
Second point/issue not addressed earlier: "Why does the Organization continue to minimize Jesus role, even to the point of removing him from lists"
The JW list shown with the illustration is of the "earthly non-biblical hierarchy" of JWs.
Jesus and God are in heaven of course. Jesus hasn't been removed from that list. He doesn't belong there.
My point here is that if we want to try and open the eyes of those JWs who want to be helped, lets get it right when commenting on their publications. The rest of the illustration regarding organization and earthly parts of it are totally unscriptural.
Just because I wish to comment on or disagree with anyone on issues within that JW illustration, and its contrived non-scriptural context, does not mean I agree with the existence in reality of a heavenly, earthly or any organization, or God riding any chariot.
Take the time to read my earlier posts within this very topic.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-08-29 13:27:03
John971, are you now satisfied by AndereStimme's comment above, or is there something else that you feel needs correcting? If so please specify the article and paragraph in question to aid us in locating it.
Comment by Candace on 2016-12-03 00:57:00
Maybe, just maybe, we are being "bombarded" with the admonition to be loyal because a lot of brothers and sisters aren't getting/heeding it? That sounds horrible, but if we think about how far from perfection we are since the first human couple, and how the world's spirit of disloyalty is so strong, then we can discern why we need to be counseled like this - to prevent worldly influences from seeping into the congregation.
Also if the organisation is spirit directed then our faith will surely help us to discern that Jehovah allows imperfect men who make mistakes to give us food at the proper time just as much as he allows wickedness to happen on earth right now, and has anointed imperfect kings to rule over his chosen people back in bible times. We are also super confident that he will make things all perfect again when the time is right and every hidden thing like deception, mistakes, cover-ups will be made clear for everyone to see.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-03 09:32:40
Candace, I'm sure you see this as a valid argument. Now if this exact same argument were being made to you by a Roman Catholic speaking about her own church, would you still consider it valid? If not, why not?
Reply by Candace on 2016-12-05 21:44:25
Hi Meleti, I don't know what to say to that to be honest, except isn't this a bit like comparing an oddly shaped apple to a badly rotten one? The catholics sure are christians too but they have way more pagan beliefs that I can put my finger on. Trinity, christmas, same sex marriage, mary worship, thats just the start! Yes I understand our organisation isn't perfect either by any means but what is?
But I get it (I think), its our heart condition which matters most to Jehovah, specifically whether we are moved through his word to make the effort to put on the new personality by means of Christ. We have to serve God and follow Jesus out of love not because we are blindly following rules and taking no responsibility for our actions.