Bible Study – Chapter 1 Par. 11-20
“A naive person believes everything, but the shrewd person discerns his steps.” Proverbs 14:15
Sleight of Hand
manual dexterity, typically in performing tricks.
"a nifty bit of sleight of hand got the ashtray into the correct position"
As Christians, we do not get involved in the political antics of this system of things, because our kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) Nevertheless, we can observe and learn. Last Monday’s presidential debate demonstrated what I like to call “verbal sleight-of-hand”. This is the ability to seemingly hide a lie in plain sight. The trick is to never admit you’re wrong, and never vary from your story. This may require you to rewrite history, and if so the tactic is to repeat the revised story over and over until it becomes a reality in the minds of your listeners. This doesn’t work for everyone, but as Abraham Lincoln once said, “You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.” It is often enough to fool some of the people all of the time, especially when “some of the people” constitutes a majority of the people.
Are you a naïve person or an independent critical thinker? Do you put blind trust in people, or do you do your due diligence by putting all you are told to the test?
It seems there are people who believe whatever their favorite politician tells them, no matter how outrageous his words and actions may be; no matter how transparently blatant his lies become. Sadly, this situation is not confined to the political arena.
This sleight-of-hand technique to teaching “the truth” has never been more evident than in the book we are currently studying at the weekly Christian Life and Ministry meeting.
When Would God’s Kingdom Be Established?
When asking about the timing of the establishment of God’s Kingdom, paragraph 11 cites Acts 1:6, indicating that the disciples were asking about the timing of Christ’s presence.
“So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”” (Ac 1:6)
Here, the magician is holding a truth in his right hand for all to see. However, his left hand holds another truth which he does not want the audience to witness. The very next verse says:
“He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Ac 1:7)
The organization wishes us to believe that the kingdom of God was not restored in the first century, but it does not want us to know that the ability to foreknow the timing of the establishment of God’s kingdom has been denied to us by Jehovah himself. Watchtower teaching, however, would have us believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses knew not only the year but the very month in which God’s kingdom was established: October, 1914.
The magician's hands have to keep moving rapidly so that the audience doesn’t focus on the hand that holds the truth. Thus in very next paragraph (12) we jump into a seemingly unrelated parable, that of the wheat and the weeds. The interpretation given to this parable is utterly devoid of Scriptural support. We are to believe what they say, because they say it. That seems to be the end of the matter. For example, we are to believe that the growing season for the wheat and weeds ran from 33 C.E. to 1914 C.E. Then the period of the “conclusion of the system of things” began. This would mean the system of things has been concluding for the past century.
The word that the NWT translates as "conclusion" really means “end” or “completion.” But an the end that lasts over a century doesn’t really seem like an end, so the New World Translation prefers to use the word “conclusion.” However, this doesn’t fit either because what they hide in their other hand are the details of the parable which speak of the weeds being gathered first, bundled to be burned, then the wheat is gathered. This would mean the Angels have been gathering and bundling weeds for the past 102 years. The wheat has yet to be gathered based on the sequence of this parable. This simply doesn’t fit.
So that we do not dwell on this, the magician’s hands are a blur, and we are moved in paragraph 13 to the parable of the minas. Here at last we get scriptural references to prove something. At least it seems that way if we only look at what the magician holds in his right hand. These three scriptures, Ps 110:1-2; Mt 22:43-44; He 10:12-13, all show that Jesus rules in waiting until his Father puts his enemies under his feet. For example, Mt 22:43-44 quotes Ps 110:1-2 which says,
“Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”” (Ps 110:1-2)
We know from the Bible that Jesus sat at God's right hand in 33 C.E.
“Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’” (Ac 2:33-35)
Shortly thereafter, Stephen received a vision in which he saw the fulfillment of this Psalm.
“But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”” (Ac 7:55-56)
So when does the Father subdue his enemies? According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, this occurred in 1914.
"Following his resurrection, Jesus ascended to heaven and waited at God’s right hand until 1914 to begin ruling as King. During that time, Jesus ruled over his anointed followers, guiding them in their preaching and disciple-making work as well as preparing them to rule with him in his Kingdom.—Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20; Luke 22:28-30." (w06 9/1 p. 13 par. 6)
According to paragraph 19 of this study, there is clear evidence of this fact in the world. No clear evidence is presented however. But our main concern should be for what the organization is holding in the other hand while making this pronouncement.
What they are not showing us, is the rest of the parable. The slaves who worked with the minas are rewarded by being appointed over cities. Each faithful slave started with some coins, and ended up governing over cities based on how well he did with the money given him. Did this happen in 1914? Additionally, the enemies that opposed the king are brought before him and slaughtered.
“Moreover, bring these enemies of mine here who did not want me to become king over them and execute them in front of me.’”” (Lu 19:27)
Did this happen in 1914?
By making the establishment of the kingdom a separate event from the coming of the kingdom, the organization is making mincemeat of the parable of the minas.
When Will God’s Kingdom Come?
The dexterity of a really good magician is so great that at times the audience doesn’t know what they are seeing. The goal is to keep the eye confused so that the truth behind the trick is not revealed. In the next paragraph of our study, paragraph 14, the real meaning of words gets blurred to the point of nonsense. Consider:
“The start of his presence would coincide with the establishment of the Kingdom; and the culmination of his presence, with the coming of the Kingdom.” – Par. 14
According to our publications, the presence of Christ is the time he starts to rule as King.[i] Therefore, based on the theology of the Organization, saying Christ's presence began in 1914 is the same as saying, Christ began ruling in 1914. Let us now say, purely for the sake of argument, that the kingdom will come in 2030. Based on the logic from paragraph 14, the kingdom was established in 1914 and the kingdom will come in 2030. Christ presence began in 1914 and Christ presence will end in 2030. Jesus began ruling as King in 1914 and Jesus will stop ruling as King in 2030, when his presence ends.
It would not do well for us to dwell on such head-spinning logic for too long. Therefore, the writer wisely switches gears.
In paragraph 15, we get into the latest iteration of the doctrine of “this generation”[ii] taken from Matthew 24:34.
For over one hundred years, a series of misinterpretations of Matthew 24:34, starting with C. T. Russell and continuing throughout the twentieth century resulted in untold disillusionment and loss of faith for naïve believers of the doctrines of the leaders of the Society.[iii] (I confess to being one of them.) Then in the mid-90s we got this relief:
w95 11/1 p. 17 par. 6 A Time to Keep Awake
Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we “bring a heart of wisdom in,” not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah.
Like the aforementioned presidential candidate, there is no willingness here to accept responsibility, or even to admit a mistake was made by the ones who actually made it. Blame is shifted to all of Jehovah’s witnesses. Still, hope rose that those who claimed to be the faithful and discreet slave were finally living up to the “discrete" (i.e., wise) part of the name. It did seem, after all, impossible to come up with any other interpretation of the word “generation” that could be made to serve the task at hand – that is, to create a false or artificial sense of urgency. After so many disappointments, it did not seem too much to ask that those who presume to take the lead among us would at least learn from their mistakes so as not to repeat them.
Alas, this did not prove to be the case. Seven years ago the doctrine was reborn in the form of a hybrid generation. This new definition requires us to accept that two distinct generations spanning a period of over a century can be combined to form a single generation. For example, by this definition, soldiers fighting under Napoleon in 1812 are part of the same generation as soldiers who fought in the first world war of 1914 – a span of 102 years.
Since such a definition is unique and unscriptural, the publishers have seen fit to provide us with an illustration so that we might better understand it.
Not wanting us to doubt the importance of this, paragraph 19 states:
“Well, we know that the sign of Jesus’ presence in Kingdom power is clearly evident around the globe.” – par. 19
Clearly evident? Exactly what is the evidence which is so clear? In many ways the world is a far safer and more prosperous place than it was 102 years ago. Would any of us prefer to live at any time from 1914 to, say, 1950? Those are times of war, famine, economic upheaval, disease, inadequate or non-existent healthcare, poor education, and the list goes on. It seems that the magician is trying to pull a rabbit out of his hat.
“We also see that the anointed ones who are still alive and part of “this generation” are getting on in years; yet, they will not all die off before the great tribulation begins. Therefore, we can conclude that very soon indeed God’s Kingdom will come and exercise its rule over the earth! How thrilling it will be to witness the fulfillment of the prayer that Jesus taught us: “Let your Kingdom come”!” – par. 19
Why are many Jehovah’s Witnesses so ready to believe these things? Why are they willing to once again jump on the “generation” bandwagon? Is it that they are so desperate for the end of the system of things to come that they will believe anything they are told? Or perhaps it is that so much as been invested, sometimes an entire lifetime, that the thought that it all might be for nothing is more than some can bear? Like the gambler down to his last dollar, they are all in believing the next card will be the winner. This is not real faith. This is merely faith in men. (Ps 146:3)
“. . .Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.” (Pr 14:15)
The irony of the concluding paragraph of this week’s study will not escape the critical thinker.
“Let us never forget the words that Jehovah himself spoke from heaven regarding his Son: “Listen to him.” As true Christians, we are eager to heed that divine direction. We are keenly interested in everything that Jesus said and taught about God’s Kingdom.” – par. 20
Yes, true Christians are eager to listen to Jesus, but many Jehovah’s Witnesses have proven that they are more eager to listen to the not so artfully contrived false stories of their leadership. This cannot result in success for them.
________________________________________________________________________
[i] it-2 p. 678 Presence
Since Jesus’ kingship includes the whole earth, his presence is a global one (compare Mt 24:23-27, 30) and Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, as well as references to Christ’s reign in Revelation (5:8-10; 7:17; 19:11-16; 20:1-6; 21:1-4, 9, 10, 22-27), imply that Christ’s presence is the time for him to direct his full attention to the whole earth and its population, bringing the full force of his kingly power to bear so as to accomplish his Father’s will for the earth and its inhabitants.
[ii] If you would like to examine Matthew 24:34 in the light of Scripture, please see “This Generation – A Fresh Look.”
[iii] For a detailed analysis of this history of prophetic interpretive failures, see here.
Archived Comments
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Comment by lazarus on 2016-09-29 16:21:19
Like your illustration of a Magician Meleti. There are some really Clever magicians out there! When you have the Blind Guides leading the Blind, it makes what you present, logical even if it's illogical or nonsensical!
You touch on par 12. In part it says, "The parable thus indicates that the Kingdom would be established, not in the first century C.E., but only after the growing season ended"
Notice it says' only after the growing season ended' Which ended in 1914. Am I understanding this correctly.
If you plant wheat between March and May and should be harvested (or simply dug up) between July and September. That means a turn around four months. According to google.
If the growing season ended in 1914 and the harvest season began, that means no anointed has been called up since 1914. Correct! So why are we still in this old beat up system. So, that can't be right, otherwise all those anointed since 1914 are replacements of one who somehow missed the cut! That would mean anyone who partakes every memorial year since 1914, are a replacement! We can safely conclude according to the statement in para 12. But I might be miss understanding in its meaning.
Harvest means -the process or period of gathering in crops. Plant, grow, collect.
Para 18 * footnote :Anyone who was anointed after the death of the last of the anointed ones in the first group—that is, after those who witnessed the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914—would not be part of “this generation.”—Matt. 24:8.
So , anyone who was anointed between Fred Franz death, for arguments sake, until today, there not part of this generation?
Matt 24:34
Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.
I just don't see there would be a generation of anointed not included! Does sound correct . Lol
Well, at the meeting last night! Hardly any hands were up. The elder kept referring to the graph, in trying to get responses. He almost answered most of the questions himself. He tried!
It's confusing to the R&F , it's a
delusion of a teaching. It's not
plain and simple.
Breaking the magician's spell, not easy but can be done for those
who love truth, there is someone more powerful, That is guiding lovers of truth.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-30 07:55:51
Those are some really good points, Lazarus. Thanks for sharing!
Reply by mailman on 2016-10-02 06:25:19
I was absent during the CBS (perhaps on purpose as I was not feeling well) so I asked my wife what happened. Well, very few hands raising up to answer.
Dismayed over the explanation at the book, I did a research about "generation" using the New World Translation 2000 and the RNWT 2015, specifically using the Index only.
Found several verses to help explain what Matt. 24:34 means:
Luke 11:51, Fil 2:15, Matt. 12:39, Matt. 23:36
Noticed how these verses commonly refer to the "wicked and adulterous generation", If all these verses are pointing to one and the same generation in Jesus time, how can Matt. 24:34 specifically refer to a far distant date in the future - 1914? Wouldn't that be too far fetched, too bizarre an explanation? Wouldn't that be inconsistent and certainly not in harmony with other supporting verses?
As a JW, one of our practices is to let the Bible explain a particular point. If several scriptures explain clearly what a term means, then obviously that ought to be the correct understanding.
To isolate Matt. 24:34 and make it somewhat a stand-alone verse is like saying the other verses are entirely different in thought from what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 24:34. That isn't only illogical but an absurd appreciation of the way we comprehend the Scriptures.
Have we not noticed that the Society is fond of adjusting and re-adjusting their interpretation on the basis of what is transpiring in the organization vis-a-vis the events that had taken place?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-02 08:45:43
Spot on!
Reply by mailman on 2016-10-02 09:40:22
Thanks Meleti. I have also begun doing personal study about kingdom of the heavens. While this one is off-topic, Jesus spoke about it a number of times before the Jews far more numerous than mentioning about the earth being the prize. Take note that Christ spoke about it (e.g. people striving to enter the kingdom of heaven but prevented by the Pharisees, rich man trying to enter the kingdom, and so on) PRIOR to anointing of the spirit in Pentecost 33 CE. I think this is the key to vital understanding.
Heaven is the real hope for the Jews. Otherwise, Jesus would have made reservations on that hope, perhaps to the extent of even admonishing the crowd for believing in it in absolute terms.
Well, I will just try to expound on this in case once the appropriate topic comes out of this site. :)
Comment by THE DRIFTER on 2016-09-28 17:54:56
"Why are many Jehovah’s Witnesses so ready to believe these things?
Why are they willing to once again jump on the “generation” bandwagon?
--
Is it that they are so desperate for the end of the system of things to come that they will believe anything they are told?
Or perhaps it is that so much as been invested, sometimes an entire lifetime, that the thought that it all might be for nothing is more than some can bear?"
--
Yes
You described my thoughts >as< I was waking up, ...not until.
Also, when I started questioning, it was only a matter of time that I stopped believing. The "time invested" still consumes me but I'm unwilling to destroy my life with family and friends because I didn't figure it out during my study.
Comment by wish4truth2 on 2016-09-28 19:09:21
well done! a very good article.
Sleight of Hand
manual dexterity, typically in performing tricks.
“a nifty bit of sleight of hand got the ashtray into the correct position”
This is what 2 Thess 2:9-12 referring to when it says - But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
The GB are fulfilling scripture!
"Or perhaps it is that so much as been invested, sometimes an entire lifetime, that the thought that it all might be for nothing is more than some can bear? Like the gambler down to his last dollar, they are all in believing the next card will be the winner. This is not real faith. This is merely faith in men". -so true! I had invested 45 years of my life, the cognitive dissonance was hard to bear at times but it can be overcome with time and faith in Christ.
Comment by vinman on 2016-09-28 19:51:55
Meleti, your article was so depressing.? Magician- Just perfect!
Tony to gb: "Ok guys, what story do we want to make up this year? Any thoughts?
...
"Sounds great!"
"So this following week, maybe we can look through the Bible and then meet again next week and throw a modge podge together."
"Just remember, it needs to sound just a little confusing so the publishers will throw there hands up and say, "Obviously, they know more than me!"
That seems to work pretty often."
Lett: "Do you think it will work?"
Tony: "What choice do we have? Its got to work. The shelf life of our last doctrine is about to expire. We have no choice. But this time, can you guys make it a matter of prayer to have this one last at least the remainder of my life. I'm getting too old for this."Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-29 02:16:03
2 months later...(amid sounds of laughter and backslapping)
Tony: "David, you are the man. We are so glad to have you as part of the club because guys, I tell you, we just dodged a bullet. (Uncontrollable laughter from all) Absolutely superb bit of 'splaning Davo. And you said it all with such a straight face too. You really could sell an ice machine to an Eskimo. Overlapping generations....bahahahaha. Ol' Fred would have been proud. I think we've done it boys"
Comment by Colette on 2016-09-29 03:59:05
As per some comments on the previous Pickets article on the C.L.A.M.:
It seems as if the brothers clam up when it is time to answer on this book. But then the name C.L.A.M. makes me think of shellfish myself. It would have been far more appropriate if the GB had named the midweek meeting
C.hristian R.esponsibility A.nd P.ublishing.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2016-09-29 11:50:26
I call it the CLAMBAKE. ??
Comment by Menrov on 2016-09-29 04:48:57
Well, I do not attend these meetings anymore. But I decided to have a look at the material. I noticed n par. 12 this statement:
" Following the death of the apostles, the Devil would sow weeds (imitation Christians) in among wheat (“sons of the Kingdom,” or anointed Christians). "
That means that the R&F or according to their own doctrine, the great crowd, is part of the Weeds. Because there are only 2 groups and according to the WT doctrine, one are the fake Christians and the other are the anointed Christians. So, a non-anointed JW is then what??
Peculiar (well, actually not) to see that par. 17-20, containing the WT explanation of the generation does not have any scripture mentioned (ok, accept for Mat. 24:21...but that verse does not provide any explanation)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-29 06:51:10
Great catch, Menrov. I will look forward to using this in the future.
Reply by Colette on 2016-09-29 12:32:25
Ah ha! But we forget that the weeds were separated from the wheat circa 1919 (or has the date changed?), and the Great Crowd only came on the scene in 1935, according to 1 Paul 7:10, by which time the wheat were all clean and separate.
Now how will we explain the fact that the weeds that were bundled and await destruction have died from old age before said destruction could take place? Maybe that is why our preaching work involves separating the sheep and the goats. No, wait that was old new light...
Comment by Joseph Ben Mathias on 2016-09-29 08:17:00
The elephant in the room (or at least, one of many) to me seems to lay in the initial fulfillment of Jesus words of Matthew 24. With the possible exception of vs 29-31, all the words of Jesus regarding the destruction of Jerusalem's temple (Vs 1,2) were fulfilled within 37 years.
37 years. That generation. That simple.
The suspension of disbelief required to believe that the Great Teacher was implying some sort of "overlapping" generation of whoever is mind boggling. I was sitting in the audience in a state of shock at the comments being regurgitated attempting to make sense of this.
End of rant.
I can't thank you enough for articles of this sort to help me maintain a level of sanity.
Comment by mailman on 2016-09-29 08:24:42
Well, interpreting things that make our heads spin, eyebrows cross, is not the craft of our dear Lord Jesus Christ. He has spoken of parables but he explained the meaning thereof in a clear and meaningful manner, free from any doubt, unassailable.
Now contrast this to how the Watchtower has explained matters. For years, interpretations have changed much to the members' disappointment. Furthermore, it has led to unnecessary confusion and doubt which caused many to dessert the organization, felt depressed, felt betrayed, and so on.
God is never a god of confusion but of order.Reply by THE DRIFTER on 2016-09-29 11:10:29
To mailman: http://biblehub.com/bsb/2_thessalonians/2.htm
?Reply by mailman on 2016-10-02 09:22:42
Thanks The Drifter for sharing that link. :)
Reply by THE DRIFTER on 2016-10-02 13:25:53
Your welcome mailman!
This thought of God promoting a "deceptive influence" as regards our day or as that source cites, ..."11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie," is something I picked up from another site.
Not sure if it is a valid application but it certainly would help to answer as to why the Governing Body has stuck so dogmatically to the 1914 doctrine despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Maybe someone else could proffer an opinion?
Oh, btw, my friends just call me drifter!
:)Reply by william on 2016-10-02 14:36:48
Drifter, you asked WHY the GB has stuck dogmatically to 1914. I think that the answer WHY is that Grant Suiter and those who thought like him won a power struggle at Bethel in 1979-1980, and Suiter's influence continues to this day.
During the 1980 purge (as reported in the 4th edition Crisis of Conscience which I found on Scribd), there was a list of 8 doctrines used for committee meetings to identify apostasy. Item 6 read:
That the “last days” began in 1914, and that when the apostle Peter (at Acts 2:17) spoke of the last days as applying from Pentecost on, he did not mean the same “last days” that Paul did (at 2 Timothy 3:1).
Item 7 read:
That the calendar year of 1914 was the time when Christ was first officially enthroned as King toward all the earth and that that calendar date marks the start of his parousia.
Grant Suiter and those who thought like him considered the 8 doctrines to be distinctive doctrines of the religion of JW's. I think he thought that changing any of those doctrines meant destroying the religion.
At any rate, the prominent Witnesses who disagreed with the 8 points including 1914 were (1) disfellowshipped, or (2) left Bethel and hid and shut up, or (3) pretended to believe the 8 doctrines. There used to be a lot of prominent Witnesses who disagreed with some of these doctrines, but the organization got rid of them and terrified everybody else.
I haven't attended meetings for a very long time, I but I assume that the WT still keeps elders on the lookout for violators of these 8 doctrinal points. I do not think any Witness since 1980 could make it anywhere near the Writing Dept. or GB if they ever expressed any doubt on the 1914 doctrine.Reply by THE DRIFTER on 2016-10-02 16:04:55
Thanks friend!
I'm sure that's part of it as you have outlined our history so well however, I'm wondering on whether or not Jehovah is having any influence with this and whether or not the "man of lawlessness" is indeed and in fact the Governing Body itself.
As I stated earlier, if so, then that would most assuredly account for their unyielding and overprotective stance regarding the date.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-10-02 17:23:13
Remove the belief in 607/1914 and the whole thing collapses. We have not been engaged in a lifesaving work before this generation passes away, but been engaged in a work preaching a false message, knocking on people's doors waking them on a Saturday morning to listen to us. It becomes over a hundred years of embarrassment, with incompetent handling of God's word and not one prophetic speculation coming true. It means that we are not God's only chosen organisation like the Israelites were. It means that people who couldn't accept our message simply didn't believe it because it was ridiculous, and they knew it. This is why they must continue to kick the can down the road. If the rank and file don't believe in 1914 and all that it involves, they will lose their sense of urgency. Better to ramp things up a little and show great tribulation videos to keep them all zealous. I feel sorry for the guys at the top. They really are true believers, guardians of the doctrines of men. They also are captives of a concept, followers of men, and what happens when a blind man leads a blind man? Either that or they know the actual truth, have read all the apostate books themselves, and knowingly continue to perpetuate a blatant lie. I think they are buying time. Give it enough time and people forget the old teachings, so gradualism is the key to their success. Where will the organisation be in 30 years time? There will be new GB members teaching new things, and no one will know any different. Sad but true. The cycle continues.
Reply by mailman on 2016-10-02 22:44:21
Very true. To perpetuate a blatant lie reminds us of John 8:44. Would this scripture apply? If so, then... let the reader fill in the blank.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2016-09-30 12:00:44
Why are so many JWs prepared to believe all these things ? If the comments at this week's meeting were anything to go by, they really do not get the revised generation teaching. Even most of the elders did not comment during the book study. As you and others have explained, Meliti, the generation clearly applies to 1st Century Jews, as does most of Matthew 24. I wish I knew how to understand verses 29-31. As for 1914, it goes along with so many JW teachings, which are looking decidedly weedish, and we know what happens to them. Still time to change. Or is that just wishful thinking ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-30 12:23:35
Time to change, Yes. Willingness to change...not so much.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-30 18:02:45
Hey Leonardo, in relation to Matt 24:29-31 I would like to say just a couple of points. Jesus had said in vs 21 that there would not be another great tribulation again like what was going to happen. I believe that he was specifically referring to the Jewish nation. But the other option is to believe it somehow applies to us, which I think is untenable, like you have mentioned. Vs 29 uses the expression "immediately after". I think this is key. Once again, either Jesus was speaking in context here, or he was referring to a distant time some 2000 years in the future. If you let these three verses get put out of context, the inevitable result is that of the Millerites, trying to work out the time of Jesus second coming and expecting to be caught up to heaven. Which was what Russell and his loyal devoted followers expected when he entered the room and clapped his hands in 1914. A failure to recognise that the language is not literal but is highly "exaggerated", for want of a better word, will mislead even the most devoted and sincere reader. I believe Jesus followers knew what he meant. Keep reading the Bible in context, don't take it so literally, and you won't end up disappointed :-)
Reply by mailman on 2016-10-01 02:14:55
With all the important revelations and discoveries I personally did since 2013 (boy that's 3 years already) I am still trying to figure out what to do.
I have to adjust my mindset from time to time, thinking that being associated with the organization is still OK even with lingering doubts, even with clear conclusions that 1914 doctrine is just a myth, and despite the fact that the hybrid generation, the 144, 000 limit to heaven, the other sheep, the governing body, the faithful slave, shunning of disfellowshipped members, even the fanatic rejection of celebrating almost all holidays, are results of misinterpretations.
Perhaps I am staying for the meantime for social support. Being in the org and actively preaching, helping others to learn basic bible truths are great deviations from secular work and refreshing for the soul. Somehow, association is also protection against the world's temptations. I just told myself to just recognize which teachings are based on the truth and can be beneficial to myself and my family's well being while remaining skeptical in weeding out those that are unfounded.
For example, in the ministry, I focus more on the teachings based on Christ, e.g. Matthew 7:12, things that would make a person see the Christian life, make people understand that bible principles are the best. Before 2013, especially during the 90's, I used to focus on the last days and Armaggedon coming.
This is not easy dear brothers. I just hope our Father will find ways to correct the wrongs and show us the best way... the best way out of the falsehoods of the organization.
Comment by Gogetter on 2016-10-01 08:43:08
Mailman
Thank you for your comments, as you have word for word described my situation and mindset except it's been almost 6 years for me.
I often think I'm literally insane for staying in this situation so it is good to see others are battling the same spiritual delima!
I guess misery does love company after all, lol
Seriously this site is a place of refuge and encouragement for those who have awakened from the WT trance. Thank you brother Vivlon.
I hope it's not wishful thinking to feel that somehow Jehovah will use us to help those from within the congregation to start using their God given gift of reason along with his word the Bible to wake up!
May we all do this in the spirit of mildness and Christ like love as we walk this most difficult path.
AgapeReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-01 10:12:12
It's not wishful thinking at all, Gogetter. More and more are finding it hard to swallow the tall tales the GB is spinning these days. I've notice who many have commented here that the commenting at their meetings is painfully absent. The brother are either confused or are just not buying it anymore, but the dissent is expressed in abstention. Everyone has a limit, a personal tipping point. I fear that for most however it will tip them in the wrong direction. Some will double down on their faith to the point of fanaticism, while others will go off into the world, into agnosticism or even atheism. But for many--a minority admittedly, but a sizeable one--they will follow the path we have embarked upon. Those are the ones we can help and I'm confident the Lord will lead them to us.
Reply by mailman on 2016-10-02 09:22:02
Welcome Gogetter. I think there are hundreds if not thousands like us in the same boat. :)
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2016-10-03 09:39:05
Hi Mailman, and Gogetter. Probably about 3 years too. Maybe even a little less. It is good to know there are others on this site who are in exactly the same position as we are. I am sure there are many more. What you hope for is what I hope for. Whatever is being fed to us at the meetings, I hope I am not being naive in thinking most of the brothers sincerely want to do what is right for the correct reasons. That is why we have not gone anywhere else, apart from here. This site has been a revelation and a support, as much for gaining the accurate knowledge as also for being aware of others. May you be able to keep it going, Meliti.
Comment by tyhik on 2016-10-03 16:56:08
Thanks Meleti, nice fresh angle that magician one.
This clam meeting was a hard one to sit through. The next chapter in the book won't be any better. It might be that by picking this book for study, the GB has shot themselves in the foot. Those who have doubts, will have more doubts afterwards, because so many baseless claims have been collected and presented in a package. And some who did not have doubts, will have them. For a devout witness for whom Internet equals with jw.org, the organisation itself is in the best position to spill seeds of doubt.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-10-11 11:32:42
Menrov, I saw your comment on the wheat and the weeds and thought I would add something. Interestingly and truthfully as you say, at the point in time when the Son of Man sends the angels out at the end of the Great Tribulation, there are in fact only 2 groups left alive on earth. Jesus did not mention a third group, and that would have been important, because there is only eternal life or eternal death available at the point when the angels are sent out. The two groups are the wheat, the sons of kingdom or anointed as we often say. And the other is the weeds, those classified as the seed or sons of the Devil that actually merit a judgment of eternal destruction at the very time when the angels are sent out. In my understanding, all the other "good people" who have not been anointed by spirit and who are not direct agents of Satan meriting eternal destruction will have perished by that time. Revelation makes it very clear that Christ's true disciples that receive the mark will be preserved from the plagues (Rev 7:3; 9:3). By the end of the 6th plague, the only left alive are those that had the mark, and those that "did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their sexual immorality nor of their thefts." (Rev 9:20,21) These are the seed of Satan that will not change no matter what (kinda like Pharaoh) and God actually lets them live until that point (Rev 9:6), because his intention is to have Christ and the heavenly armies destroy them eternally in the ensuing battle of Armagedon which follows the 7th trumpet and establishing of God's Kingdom. If the scriptures say that after the 6th trumpet, the only ones not killed by the plagues are those that refused to repent (or those that had the mark), then it goes without saying that everyone else is no longer alive even thought they may have "repented" for not heeding Christ's words. Those declared righteous for life that come out of the great tribulation at that point are only those anointed by spirit. They come out of the GT in order to serve in the God's temple. Christ first makes atonement for them, the priestly class (Rev 19:13). No atonement is made for all those other "good people" before Armageddon. They are the "unrighteous" that will be resurrected and be given a second opportunity to express true faith in Christ and attain "life" at some later point. Again, Christ only describes two very distinct groups remaining when the angels are sent out. Those that don't fall into those two categories will have perished. They will be resurrected and be helped by Christ's bride to exercise true faith.
Of course, this is what I understand. The way you see it might be quite different.
Much love,