Does Your Style of Dress Glorify God?

Comment by James on 2016-11-09 04:44:44

If slacks or pants are acceptable in some cultures,then it should be allowed for sisters since some appointed men have beards as their culture allows it.

Again, as pointed out,which culture is implied? The culture of the territory or what? Since they mention it will not detract from the good news, the culture of the territory is invariably implied.That being so,the appointed brothers with bears were appointed in disregard to the instruction in the Ministry book that "For men, a neat personal appearance may include being clean-shaven. In areas where mustaches are widely viewed as dignified, any who wear these should keep them neatly trimmed".Though 'may' is used,elders consider it as SHALL,and refers to it as law, and will not recommend those with beards especially if they have been advised not to keep beards.
The statement that some appointed men have beards is unwarranted if there was no law against beard prior to this article.
The Nigerian Pidgin English article present this as "if man keep beard beard wey clean and wey them shape well,dem fit no see am as bad thing.",this is very common in many campus and general society in Nigeria for young men to keep clean,shaped beard,yet, if a young witness do as the article says,he is imitating the world.

Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2016-11-11 21:11:56

I have so many memories of this crazy attitude. I can still remember counseling one young brother to 'dress down' since his jacket resembled that of a tuxedo.

However, my greatest memories are from illustrations of Adam and Jesus being beardless in our publicatios because perfect men were considered as having no such growth. This view has continued to be a powerful reason for the present "pay attention to the pictures" decree during our bible and watchtower studies.

?

Comment by vinman on 2016-11-06 18:42:15

You are right. Like sex, the gb are obsessed with clothing. As you so well reasoned, it really boils down to control. But I guess I just don't get it. If the control slows down growth and people are turned off by this, why obsess about control? It makes no sense. Don't they want people and their money to join the organization?

As far as beards, this is what paragraph 17 really says: You can wear a beard. No, you can't. But maybe it will be fine if you do. No, it may not be fine. You can have privileges even if you have a beard. But don't expect them if you do have a beard. ?

Irreprehensible?!! What??!!
But you can be absolutely lacking love, kindness, mildness, and goodness and that is just fine. Nice.?

Comment by THE DRIFTER on 2016-11-06 19:53:57

Apparently, beards and tieless shirts are more powerful than the Holy Spirit!

Comment by Christian on 2016-11-06 21:05:05

I live in a part of the world where the sub-tropical climate determines how the locals dress. It 's quite a casual and relaxed environment - until JWs pile onto the territory. Then it's 'Showtime'....lots of dark jackets, longsleeve white shirts, ties etc etc. You get the picture. Usually there's a cluster of them, up to twenty, all seemingly feerful of leaving the group and actually knock on someone's door. By then of course, the residents have gone into full-alert mode as they know that the only people in the world who would dress up looking like escapees from the nearby funeral parlor have to be.....JWs. All this whilst the temperature is probably in the high 20sC (80F). What does this excercise acheive? You guessed it, less than zero. Many attempts have been made to allow reason to prevail, but to date - zip. This is what happens when men stand up, in the name of 'good order' and completely block Jehovah's Holy Spirit. If only they stood up for Common Sense, a misnoma of course, because sadly it's not all that common. Smart Casual should prevail, but no, that could give rise to all manner of rebelliousness.

Comment by Colette on 2016-11-06 22:08:37

I disagree that the motive is control. An elder we knew well who was involved in criminal activity yet nothing was done as he was a very good assembly speaker, once told us 'It is all about perception.'

The one reason I found it hard to leave the org was that everyone looked so nice. And it was really nice to see my husband on the platform with suit and tie. And it is really hard to think that there could be any sort of pedophilia or any other kind of filth going on if everyone looks so decent.

As Jesus said of the Pharisees at Luke 11:39, they wash the outside of the cup, but inside are full of wickedness, and that they are like whitewashed graves, appearing beautiful to men, but are in fact full of dead men's bones and uncleanness - Matthew 23:25-28.

And then he gets to the crux of the matter in Matthew 23:28 "In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

In the elders' book and in practice, as long as wrongdoing of the men taking the lead is not common knowledge, they can keep their privileges. That is why they would disfellowship a victim of child abuse for speaking up. And that is why it isn't the wrongdoer that brings reproach on Jehovah, but rather the person that talks about it.

I guess that for the WT is it easier to get the org to look clean than to actually get them to bring their actions in line with bible standards. And appearance for them is oh so important, as without it, it will be easier to see through the charade and people would notice the filth and unchristian behavior of those around them.

• Reply by Colette on 2016-11-06 22:19:56

  And of course that is why they are a pedophile's paradise.

Comment by AFRICAINE on 2016-11-06 22:37:11

I would posit that the motive includes the element of control as well and when left up to interpretation by individual elder bodies it can become a powerful controlling element in their hands. There was a congregation in the South African city of Bloemfontein [a very conservative Afrikaner city - esp at the time of this happening] who would not tolerate anything but a white shirt and very dull unexciting tie on brothers giving public talks especially visiting speakers. And so if you pitched up to give a talk in anything but the "regulation" dress code you were taken to the back and offered a white shirt and tie to change into - from a closet of clothing in a variety of sizes. Their interpretation was that the congo and community was conservative and you had to conform to that dictate - Pink shirts would have caused pandemonium - that would have had the word "moffie" [gay man] attached to it -
In my own congo in a very conservative Afrikaner community east of Johannesburg we had 3 elders who were so obese their shirts could not button around their belly's - you could see their hairy navels - but....they had shirt and tie and so that was ok......So if not directly wishing to control, the Borg allows it to happen via the elders and CO's who are often the strongest element of control in a circuit [ eg CO 7 Stars ]

• Reply by Colette on 2016-11-07 02:58:53

  Sounds like Durban Central Cong.
  
  The fact is that if the GB's body main motive is to control the dress, they would proscribe exactly what one can wear, even as the LDS and Amish do. And they could turn it into a money spinner, by not only selling literature carts, but also JWorg scarves and ties... And then in different colours to match the rest of your outfit. Or special ones if you are regular or aux pioneering for the month.

• Reply by THE DRIFTER on 2016-11-07 06:45:56

  Apparently, pink shirts are more powerful than the Holy Spirit.

  • Reply by Menrov on 2016-11-07 09:57:52

    That is why we have "The Pink Panther" ....
    
    In the Netherlands it seems to be a very mixed environment. The congregation I was in, was strict many years ago but from what I hear and had seen before I left, it became far more flexible: MS with beards, walking with the so important microphone with very short hair cut (almost bold), shirts in various colors etc. Women seem to be a bit more traditional. I know that some very much disliked these "house rules" but conformity won in most cases.
    
    The focus on clothing is not unique to JW's. It is funny though. As a JW you are taught not to become a member of a sports team as you have to wear clothes that identify you as a member of that team. But as well all know, it is the clothing of JW's that makes them very easy to identify. And that is what counts, that the people identify you as a JW, despite how you think about it all or what you have done. It is appearance and the organisation wants to control that appearance.
    
    So glad that our Lord reads the heart.....not our dress.

Comment by Truth-Seeker on 2016-11-07 00:34:00

The only time in my 50 year history as a JW that an elder really got near to me was when I tried to grow a mustache. I was in his radar with no let up until I finally gave up the mustache because I didn't need the hassle. After that his "shepherding" ceased and I never had his attention again. I was amazed at his conduct at the time but that is the training the elders get from the GB: to concentrate on the 'outside of the cup' and ignore what's going on inside.

• Reply by THE DRIFTER on 2016-11-07 06:47:48

  Mustaches are the devil and, ...are more powerful than the Holy Spirit!

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2016-11-09 15:11:22

It seems to me that the problem with beards and slacks for women and similar issues is the same as over certain spiritual doctrines, namely a reluctance, or maybe even a fear, of change. We have stated this is our view, and we cannot change it otherwise we will look foolish, or just wrong. We claim to be guided by Jehovah's holy spirit. It was right then. He does not change, so we cannot. Besides some very old brothers and sisters might be stumbled, so rather than change, we will cling to what we already have taught, and no one will be upset. The fact that it puts off others joining us can be blamed on their lack of humility, lack of right heart condition, etc. No further comment.

Comment by lazarus on 2016-11-10 15:20:22

Thanks Meleti, for the insights you. Ring to these articles. Everyone's comments have basically covered what's petty within the Organisation I was speaking to a client yesterday, we were discussing staff, & his biggest issues. For him being in hospitality was dress, grooming and personal hygiene. What I think is not important, but how does God feel. Modesty was highlighted in the article. The difference between business and worship in my mind, one your being paid to work, the other it's voluntary to worship. The problem with conformity in worship can be the motive one makes changes. Why? For God or Men, then the aspect of Judging each other, also in trying to impress others even outdoing others, bringing in a spirit of competition, even a class system. Which in turn doesn't promote Love, humility and goes against what Jesus, James and others promoted amongst worshippers of God .modesty Love and use your conscience.

• Reply by lazarus on 2016-11-10 15:23:38

  ...Meant to say bring to these articles. Lol..sorry I'm in between jobs.

Comment by kyaecker on 2016-11-13 11:28:25

Interesting article. For the most part not too much to get upset about but this one point that has always botherd me. Specifically service dress. I live in a rural area and when ppl see us coming in our d2d service, they know who we are a mile away. Does this help the message? When I go d2d I always feel over dressed and self conscience as compared to the householder. I often wonder, might they feel the same, put off? I think many times our message is delayed or stopped because of our rigid dress in service. I would feel more relaxed talking with someone at my door if they were dressed more casually. Two guys in suits at your front door is over dressed for the occasion and may even alarm some neighbors. Is this showing brotherly love for others. The Society never seems to understand this. It's about, this is our dress code follow it. I have had more success in informal witnessing than door to door dressed to the hilt.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-11-13 11:40:17

  I think you make an excellent point. I grew up in an industrial town--shift workers everywhere. An elder--back in the days when we called them servants--went door to door dressed like a factory worker and had great success.

• Reply by Candace on 2016-12-01 08:00:38

  So the dress and grooming is a witness in itself isn't it? Thats the whole point of dressing modestly then, so it sets us apart from the rest of the world since we are no part of it. But I must say, the only time I feel a bit awkward I guess is when I do cart & informal witnessing at the beachside in our territory. Having the long dress and blouse outfit on makes me self conscious when everyone else is in their bikini or board shorts. I just try not to focus on that too much but rather on the message I am trying to preach, but honestly I do feel a bit sorry for the brothers sweating it in their suit and ties when its so hot. :')

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-01 09:25:42

    We have this counsel from Paul:
    
    “. . .For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.” (1Co 9:19-23)
    
    So the Bible principle is: We dress in such a way as to win people over.
    
    So rather than dress by an arbitrary standard that serves to distinguish our organization from other organizations--what amounts to a uniform, if you will, such as the Mormons also wear with their white shirts, black badges and black pants--we should be allowed to determine for ourselves what best serves to spread the message. This self-determination allows the Christian to exercise his or her own conscience which is guided by the spirit through the Lord. Thus the Lord, not the Governing Body, and not the local elders, rule over us.

    • Reply by Candace on 2016-12-02 08:36:08

      I never thought about it this way before, thank you for explaining it so well! But I admit to being a bit confused right now about how this principle applies to being no part of the world, John 17:16. I have always been taught to be different in the way we dress (modestly), talk (no cussing or swearing), and conduct (chaste). This is how people can clearly tell that we are different to them. Honestly how am I supposed to act like "to those without law I became as without law"? Is it to pretend to be like a worldly person just so I can blend in for the sake of trying to win them over with the kingdom message?
      
      OK I am going to meditate/study on this one for a little while.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-02 14:00:41

        Not being part of the world doesn't require us to make a point of being different. For example, if you live in the Bible belt in the States and you find all your neighbors are born-again Christians who dress modestly, it doesn't mean you have to dress immodestly just to be different. The idea isn't to stand out as different as if being different is some badge of righteousness.
        
        Paul's point was that he didn't do things that would alienate people. To those with law (the Jews) he acted like a Jew. He observed the law. So even though he could work on the Sabbath and eat pork, he conducted himself like them so as to not create an impediment to the preaching of the good news. For those without Law, he acted as one without law. He is not speaking of outlaws, but of the non-Jews who were not under the law code. He was a Jew by birth, but did not rigidly hold to his customs, but would eat with gentiles and enter their homes--both things prohibited by Jews customs--so that he could become like them so as to gain them. Of course, he wouldn't break the law of Christ at any time.
        
        For example, if there were a neighborhood barbeque most witnesses would feel that attending would make them part of the world, but that is not the intent of Jesus' words at John 17:16 as he himself indicated by this own example in preaching.

  • Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-19 05:54:04

    Exactly

• Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-19 05:53:14

  Exactly.

Comment by Christismyleadernotjw.org on 2016-11-14 07:58:13

Great Article Meleti!
On paragraph 17, after everyone had their "opinions" on men with beards, and how they are pretty much inappropriate for witnesses (not so much Christians) I had to raise my hand and speak. These were my exact words (I have to write my comments out to make sure they are spiritually up building without offending in such a public place.) "It has always interested me that the new testament only has about 2 places where it gives comment on dress and groom (1 Timothy 2:9,10 and maybe 1 Peter 3:2-5).. However, they are general instructions.. "with modesty and good judgment". Where as the Old testament give specific instructions. When we understand the people that the words were directed to, we can appreciate why that is so. In Mosaic Law, God was only speaking to one nation, with one set of customs While in the new testament, there were Christians from all sorts of nations and customs. And it is true that we are no longer "obligated to keep the law" as put by the article and is summed up in Galatians 3:24,25. However, paragraph 3 of the article after reading Deuteronomy 22:5, which was also part of the mosaic law, the paragraph states: "From God’s stated direction about clothing, we clearly see that God is not pleased with styles of dress that feminize men, that make women look like men, or that make it hard to see the difference between men and women." Therefore, when the law states in Leviticus 19:27, that men should not destroy the extremity of their beard, and in Lev 21:5 where it denies men to not shave their heads bald or their beard (Our Coordinator shaves his head), we can see how Jehovah saw this issue at that time and to that one nation.But the fact of the matter is that now we are under the Law of Christ, and this law is more general when speaking of our dress and groom (1 Tim 2:9,10)"being modest and showing good judgement" Why? because now there is not just jews under this law. Therefore, if a brother decides to have a beard or not, to have a mustache or not, to shave his head or not, we have no right to judge or criticize such brother for being rebellious, or spiritually weak. In fact the scriptures that are in this paragraph (17) 1 Corinthians 8:9 and Romans 15:1-3 teaches us that if we were to stumble for such matters, it shows that we are the "weak" ones. This will reflect our own spirituality if we are to stumble over this matter. And although our dress and grooming can glorify God, Jesus showed us in Mathew 7:15-20 that false prophets were going "come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves", but by their "fruits" we would recognize them. So we see that our outward appearance can sometimes mean nothing if our "fruits" or christian works are not in line."

Yes.. I know it was a long comment, but I had to do it. It just irritates me that on paragraph 3, the Org emphasizes parts of the law that they see convenient, but in other areas, such as beards, they downplay it, like it paragraph 17. At the end of the article, the conductor said "just to be clear, if you brothers show up here with a beard on Thursdays meeting, we will have a chat with you in the back room, since it's not culturally accepted" I know that was a sling to me, but it was appalling because it just shows how much "invisible rules" exist inside the congregation.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-11-14 09:34:17

  What a great comment, ChristIsMyLeaderNotJW. In what area of the world are beards currently unacceptable? Did you get any positive feedback from some of the brothers or sisters?

  • Reply by Christismyleadernotjw.org on 2016-11-14 17:32:42

    Thanks Meleti.
    I really don't know the answer to where beards are currently unacceptable. I live in the US States and go to a foreign language congregation. A Spanish language congregation to be more exact.
    
    There was much positive feedback from the brothers and sisters. I was happy to see that, some brothers were beginning to use critical thinking. One young brother, came up to me after the meeting and said "brother, that comment pretty much summed up how we should all feel about our dress and groom, and not to mention, you pretty much rebuked the conductors closing remarks". I just smiled, and thanked him, and told him that my intention was not to rebuke, but help brothers draw closer to Jehovah through Christ and his Word. Then I slipped him a note I had written that said "Read 2 Corinthians 3, and focus your attention on verses 14 to 17". Consequently, I literally read this scripture out loud at our last CLAM meeting, "Bible" (Book) study when explaining the true fulfillment of Daniel 12:4 in the 1 century.
    
    Thanks once again for helping me through my awakening process. It will never be forgotten. Your brother in Christ.

Comment by Candace on 2016-12-01 07:42:16

Yup, it might seem a bit over the top reading it the way you described it. Having said that maybe there is a reason why we need so many reminders on dress and grooming? The worldly standards are dropping so low its super hard to choose something that is suitable for wearing at the meetings and for witnessing. Even at the conventions you still see some really ridiculous clothing! like groups of 'brothers' dressed in neon coloured slim cut suits. Seriously?
So, just like with entertainment and social media, internet, worldly trends are heading towards the extreme. And basically if we didn't get timely reminders from the faithful and discreet slave imagine going to the meetings and seeing everyone dressed casually, in yoga/gymwear or like they are about to go to a club. That doesn't sound very christian and being 'no part of the world' to me.

Comment by meekman on 2017-01-05 10:08:22

First of all there is a problem in the congregation with "inappropriate" dress and grooming thats why the study dedicated to it. So i dont understand why your criticizing the society. Are you trying to cast doubt on the society? Whats the purpose of this website? Nitpick every detail? Focus on the enormous good it has done for us and stop being sidetracked on frivolous critical criticism.
Secondly the sister wearing the dress just below the knee on a cold day could be alot warmer if she wore that dress three quarters of the way down her legs. So i dont understand why your on here nitpicking everything the society says and does. Are we becoming like Korah now? Beware and remember his fate and those that followed him.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-05 19:29:17

  I think if you read the other articles on this site and on the original site, www.meletivivlon.com, you'll see we are not nit-picking at all. Proving from Scripture that the Organization is teaching a false hope in the Other Sheep doctrine can hardly be termed nit-picking — not when the topic deals with our eternal salvation.
  
  How easily Witnesses slip into the misapplication of the account of Korah to condemn everyone who disagrees with the doctrine of the Governing Body. They fail to recognize that Korah wanted to replace Moses as God's channel of communication with his people.
  
  Today, Jesus is the Greater Moses.
  
  *** w13 9/15 p. 26 par. 18 Make Personal Decisions Wisely ***
  The Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, has been leading true worshippers of Jehovah through the wilderness of Satan’s world for many decades.
  
  So who is trying to replace Jesus as the channel of communication between God and his people? Who is claiming that their every instruction must be obeyed without question for the sake of unity? I think a more appropriate comparison for those of us who speak out on this site through articles and comments would be the sons of Korah who instead of siding with their rebellious father sided with Moses. We here side with Jesus Christ.

Comment by Enoch on 2017-01-10 05:00:44

Don't get me started on beards folks....always had a problem with it for the following reasons..

1Co 4:3 Now, I am not at all concerned about being judged by you or by any human standard; I don't even pass judgment on myself.
1Co 4:4 My conscience is clear, but that does not prove that I am really innocent. The Lord is the one who passes judgment on me.

1. The bible speaks considerably about riches, materialism, status and greed. Yet quite rightly the society doesn't legislate on people's material status. How much the individual owns, how big his house is or what car he drives is his individual decision. A brother can be as ostentatious with his wealth as he likes and he can progress all the way to Bethel.

There is scant information in the bible about grooming compared to the counsel against pursuing wealth and status and yet we have the non sensical, bizarre development of wealthy Elders leaving their Beverly Hills Palace, hopping into their imported European Super Salon, driving around to a brother's 2 bedroom apartment and tell him to shave off his neat trim beard because he is a bad witness to the community? I should know.....it was me!!! :-) :-)

Jas 2:2 Suppose a rich man wearing a gold ring and fine clothes comes to your meeting, and a poor man in ragged clothes also comes.
Jas 2:3 If you show more respect to the well-dressed man and say to him, "Have this best seat here," but say to the poor man, "Stand over there, or sit here on the floor by my feet,"
Jas 2:4 then you are guilty of creating distinctions among yourselves and of making judgments based on evil motives.

Mat 23:8 You must not be called 'Teacher,' because you are all equal and have only one Teacher.

Mat 23:10 Nor should you be called 'Leader,' because your one and only leader is the Messiah.

Mat 23:27 "How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look fine on the outside but are full of bones and decaying corpses on the inside.
Mat 23:28 In the same way, on the outside you appear good to everybody, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and sins.

2. If the society is worried about Men looking like women and vice versa then wouldn't beards be a good thing? Last time I checked, with the exception of some Elderly women from the Baltic states, women are'nt that good at putting out the facial carpet. This is why hundreds of millions of Muslims, Jews and some branches of Christianity go completely opposite to JW.ORG ....they see the beard as a sign of Male Headship and staying loyal to the creator against worldly trends. Interesting.

3. In 2012 when told to lose my beard I took an informal survey of people in my community. I spoke to Doctors, Law and business people. The biggest problem they had with beards was not the beards but why a group of people would ever pass a rule saying that a man can't wear one. It took me several attempts at the question because they were so confused by the topic. The main reaction I got from the "world" is the absurdity of the topic.

4. The bikini was launched in the 1950's and shocked many in the secular society of the day. Many elderly ladies in both the Org and the community still don't like seeing women in bikinis and see it as unchristian and immodest. Yet you will see many young and not so young witness women (in good standing) strutting the beaches in bikinis and then shake their head at a brother with a beard? One persons fashion choice becomes another persons sin against God. The WT article did make a comment on being modest at the beach but the sisters at the meeting were silent. When the beard paragraph came up you couldn't keep the sisters quiet. No brother commented during the beard discussion but 6 sisters found a very vocal , disapproving voice. Enjoy your skimpy swimwear ladies!!! :-) :-)

It's not hard for me as a brother to shave. I don't mind doing it if it really is God's direction but noone has offered me convincing scriptural evidence that this is the case. The CO in 2011 told me he personally would love to have a beard. Then straight after he said " Who knows? Maybe one day in the New System Jehovah will reverse the restriction and we can have them again?"

The CO was an intelligent , articulate man and he coughed up that bit of theological wonderment. He was so against beards by the societies conditioning that he was'nt even sure if we'd have them again. I rest my case. (Mat 15:9 It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!' )



PS Meleti...if we're gonna get you into that San Diego Palace it may pay to be clean shaven. The brothers won't notice the Mansion but the beard will be a dead give away. :-) ;-)

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-10 16:31:29

  This was a hoot, Enoch. Thanks.

Comment by meekman on 2017-01-10 09:54:32

so tell me then and this applies to everyone here if all of you continue posting criticism why are you still associated with jws? If they arent teaching the truth why not excuse yourself from being witnesses? It seems to me the whole slant on every topic here is critical and negative light. Id like to see any of us trying to direct 8million plus people in the same spiritual truths. Have fun trying it. Dont be surprised how many other beroean pickets sites will come out on our behalfs. A question to everyone here Would you all have a clean conscience before almighty Jehovah right now and his judge Jesus christ? If you stood before Jehovah right now and Jesus brought up this site to you what would you respond? Wouldnt you be a little nervous?
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?” Matthew 24:45.
Jesus has given the slave this appointment right now.
If you believe otherwise then you have a problem. We are in the wrong religion. And if we are the wrong religion then where is the right religion(straight and narrow path jesus spoke about) if we are in the wrong faith then we should leave and stop complaining or suck it up cause this is better than anything else out there. But if we keep complaining at every single detail. What are we really doing and whats gonna happen? You all keep doing it and soon youll be walking around with signs at every district convention like the rest of the complainers opposers and apostates or you may just might be opposers in your heart its up to you. It will happen dont kid yourselves. The heart is the most treacherous thing and satan is not far behind messing with our minds and emotions..what did satan do when he was in heaven? "Accuser of the faithfull ones day and night" Revelation. We dont to imitate satan do we? All this critical talk is very disheartening especially because we are surrounded with wickedness all over. We are depressing ourselves even more by all this negative talk. Is all this worth losing our eternal life over? Think about it

• Reply by Stormie on 2017-01-10 11:58:49

  Having given the matter a lot of thought and prayer over the past year I have come to recognize that there is no "true religion" out there. Not a single one fails to teach manmade doctrines that are false along with the truths of God's Word. Not a single one.
  
  If I stood before Jehovah today and Jesus brought up this website I would not be even slightly nervous. Because I have the backing of his own word to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." KJV 1 Thess 5:21 And that is what I have been doing all along.
  
  I also have Peter's words to Jesus. "Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life." BLB John 6:68
  
  To WHOM not to where, not to an organization. Don't need a religion to follow God, Jesus and the Bible.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-10 16:21:50

    Amen!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-10 16:53:31

  Meekman, you ask: "If you stood before Jehovah right now and Jesus brought up this site to you what would you respond? Wouldnt you be a little nervous?" Interesting that you condemn us for passing judgment as you say, yet you are doing the same here. You judge that Jehovah would disapprove of this site. You feel that pointing out the faults we see in the Organization is wrong. Yet, has not the Organization pointed out the faults in other religions for over 100 years? If it is wrong to tell people that they are being taught falsehoods, then why does the Organization continue to do that?
  
  I'm sure that there were Pharisees who criticized Jesus and his followers for pointing out their flaws.
  
  You ask a valid question when you ask, where it the right religion? You are working under the assumption that there must be one true organization, but Rutherford had it right (we have to give credit where it is due) when he said that "Religion is a snare and a racket!" To clarify, 'Organized religion is a snare and a racket.'
  
  Christianity isn't about organizations nor about ecclesiastical hierarchies run by men like the one Gerrit Losch claimed he was part of. Christianity is about following the Christ and having him as our leader. I know that a witness will counter that statement with the comeback, "Then how will the preaching work get done if there isn't someone to organize it?"
  
  That is what you have suggested when you asked, "Id like to see any of us trying to direct 8million plus people in the same spiritual truths." Well, the Mormon church directs 15 million Mormons in the same spiritual truths, and the Seventh Day Adventists direct 18 million Adventists in the same spiritual truths, so I think your points is weak. You may counter that those two churches teach falsehoods, but that is the point we are making here about Jehovah's Witnesses.
  
  You would discount the Mormon and SDA organizations preaching accomplishments because they are not teaching the true good news. Well, neither are Jehovah's Witnesses. The teaching of the other sheep proves that.

  • Reply by Colette on 2017-01-10 21:26:05

    I have too have the backing of God's word. For example Matthew 7, that we will recognize a tree by its fruit.
    
    (Psalm 26:4, 5) . . .I do not associate with deceitful men, And I avoid those who hide what they are.  5 I hate the company of evil men, And I refuse to associate with the wicked. I have come across many lies by elders and circuit overseers and have no choice but to apply this scripture, trusting God to be with me no matter what the consequence.
    
    Meekman, you raise the point about how could anyone direct 8 million people. That is the whole point, NO human can do it. We must allow our Lord Jesus Christ to direct us as he is the true head of the Christian Church. NO human and definitely NO organization.

• Reply by Enoch on 2017-01-10 19:47:10

  Howdy Meekman. There is no denying your zeal as I believe you are genuinely trying to stand up for what you see as truth.
  
  I have only just arrived here a few days back. I have never participated in online groups about JWs as they are often peppered with Athiests and other name calling individuals that I would never want to associate with.
  
  The reason I decided to give this place a go is I thought people were genuinely trying to put JW.ORG under the lens of biblical scholarship. I didn't see them as brothers with an axe to grind , I saw them as brothers that were trying to understand the scriptures and the best way to apply them to Christianity.
  
  I don't know if you've used this technique in the ministry but when talking to trinitarians I would refer to the Apostles Paul's letters and go straight to the introduction. The Apostle Paul introduces his letters on behalf of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...he never mentions the Holy Spirit in the introduction which doesn't make sense if God really was a 3 in one.
  
  The other thing you'll notice is that he does'nt write the letters on behalf of the Faithful and Discreet Slave or Governing Body either. He introduces himself and sometimes Timothy and God the father and Jesus. None of his letters are written from Jerusalem. In fact if you go to your New World Translation reference bible and look at the Bible Books list you will notice that it has a "place written" column. Of all the Christian letters only James is said to have been written from Jerusalem.
  
  The Apostle Paul had authority as an Apostle granted to him by Christ but he did not claim that the Apostles and only the Apostles were capable of imparting knowledge.
  
  Eph 4:7 Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given.
  
  Eph 4:11 It was he who "gave gifts to people"; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
  
  Act 21:8  And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him. 
  Act 21:9  Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied. 
  
  Co 14:5  Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 
  1Co 14:6  But now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching? 
  
  You openly condemn sites like Borean Pickets but one of the big reasons they emerge is that anytime a brother has a question or wants to express something that he doubts, he gets a dogmatic, corrective rant like you just served up in your post.
  
  There are wolves(weeds) in the Organization and rather then condemn people who have been wounded by them we should seek to create an environment where brothers can express themselves about the scriptures without fear of being put down and stifled. Jud 1:22 Show mercy toward those who have doubts;

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-11 00:21:35

  Hi Meekman,
  
  I think Enoch expressed the general sentiment correctly. I would only add that the forum comment guidelines ask everyone with an opinion to express to back it up with Scripture. You have made a number of assertions in your recent comments, but there is no evidence for us to examine so as to determine their veracity. Please supply it.

Comment by meekman on 2017-01-10 23:58:42

Despite how you feel one fact remains which some of you cannot accept. Jehovah is still blessing his Witnesses and His organization and there is nothing you or i can do about it. However If any of you feel that you can do better give it your best shot and make a better one..you better make sure your millions of followers are well trained in the scriptures and provide food at the proper time. Start organizing worldwide missionairies and schools for training..train your elders well.oh and by the way provide all your members with bibles and literature to help people understand the bible. Piece of cake aint it. Oh you forgot..where are you going to store and prodiuce all this literature. And whos going to do it? Dont forget to organize your finances. Can go on and on. If you want to be the true faithful slave prove it. jws have been very faithful and giving but dont bite the hand that feeds you. Theres nothing that compares to Jws not lda not sda fda nsa nba. Please dont deceive you or anyone else comparing them.

• Reply by leachmar1 on 2018-01-13 12:51:12

  Meekman you are right about this, there is nothing anyone can do about it . If Jehovah God and his son Jesus is behind the movement , proof is in the pudding as some will say, the watchtower is one of the most widely distributed magazines in the entire earth.. it is a bible aid but it is not the Bible itself, this is proven when the watchtower make corrections In their literature , for example, something they believed in past , they find reasons to correct it, they go back re-examine scriptures and realize it is not lined up correctly with what the scriptures are saying. This does not mean in any way that everything in the watchtower that is printed is inaccurate, Jehovah’s Witnesses literature has been a very powerful effective tool in bringing many to Jehovah God & his son Jesus. You know that! And others in this group know that as well! Just because someone says something that’s wrong does not mean they wrong ALL the time.
  
  It simply means they are ambitious eager to understand more truths, For example, how many times did inventors fail in the past before they finally got the solution right?
  
  Because of their ambition and determination, they kept trying
  
  Jehovah’s Witnesses is the same they keep praying keep seeking to understand
  
  If you are going to be part of any group wether religious or not. Rules and regulations are going to apply wether they be man made or not. Telling a group to wear a shirt or tie or a dress is not violating bible principles. Jehovah God does not dictate everything through his word and he leaves it up to his servants at times how they will go about doing things, if one is disgruntled with wearing a suit or tie or dress. The simple solution is ...leave.. because as meekman said it’s not going to change...
  
  Now telling a man he can’t wear a beard because it can make him reprehensible to the group is judging.. I’m very disturbed about this...but again .. I can leave anytime I want...so why do I stay? It’s not all about doing whatever we want anytime we want, that’s not being a Christian.. Paul knew that Christians were no longer under the law, and that eating meat even pig wasn’t wrong. But he knew the sensitive feelings many Jewish Christians were feeling because they had been so use to being under law. So Paul stated “ if eating meat stumbles my brother then I will never eat meat again”
  
  He also chad Timothy a gentile circumcised in order to enter the temple and witness to the Jews
  
  If a group wants to be clean shaven and they all would like to represent themselves this way. What business do we have to be complaining about it? Yes it bothers me, however if I want to be part of the group and have peace and unity , then I personally put aside my own freedom in order to have peace with my brothers and sisters, but it still does not mean that I don’t recognize this beard thing is not scriptural, it’s a matter of having peace... what I do recognize as well, is Jehovah God and his son Jesus is using Jehovah’s Witnesses to help others learn about them in ways no other religon on this planet earth can do or is doing.
  
  I do caution ppl in this group, to take the warning of Gamaliel When he told the Sandhedrin to leave the Christians alone or else they could find themselves fighting against God himself.
  
  If all the time is spent complaining about Jehovah’s Witnesses then really Jws got everyone beat. Because they don’t waste time complaining about what you doing or what you saying in this group. They go on allowing Jehovah and Jesus to use them.
  
  There are so many religions out there that have their own rules their own way of doing things not all of it is scripturally sound
  
  It’s going to happen and like Meekman said there is nothing that’s going to change unless Jehovah God and his son Jesus changes it remove it or destroy it or bless it

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-13 21:54:44

  What is the evidence you speak of, meekman? You seem to be saying that having millions of followers is proof of God's blessing. Well then, the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists, to name only two, are also blessed by Jehovah. You speak of being trained in the scriptures, and having missionaries and training schools. Do you imagine that only witnesses have these? Other faiths help people understand the Bible, but they also teach falsehoods like the trinity and hellfire. However, Witnesses teach 1914 and the other sheep as non-children of God. It's all the same.

Comment by leachmar1 on 2018-01-12 08:41:46

You telling the truth! I’m one of Jws myself..however I do believe that if Jehovah God and his son Jesus have blessed us enough financially, we should use those funds to dress with shirt and tie or women should wear appropriate dress when out in field service. Remember: the Israelites were told to bring their very best sacrifice to Jehovah God.

Also, if you are going to be part of a group and you willingly submit yourself to following and obeying the rules and regulations of that group that is a personal choice you made . People do this all the time in many organizations they join.

However, you are right about beards, Jws dictate man made rules that have nothing to do with Gods word. Wearing a beard WILL NOT condemn or cause one to lose favor with Jehovah God and his son Jesus. It is a social pressure witnesses impose on the group. And twisting the scriptures by telling someone “ They may hinder bringing glory to God “ is simply not true... If one condemns facial hair on a man ... then he has to condemn Jehovah God who put it in man to grow facial hair.. if you cannot condemn the creator for creating man with the ability to grow facial hair, how can you condemn man who is made in the likeness of God?

Taking away their privileges is judging them to be unworthy in which there is no reason or cause to do so.

Jehovah’s witnesses love Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and do their utmost to follow Jesus as colors as possible. But they are imperfect and do make mistakes and errors and not EVERYHING they put in a watchtower is biblically sound as many would want to believe. This does not mean in any way Jehovah is not using them to get the good news of his Kingdom preached.

However, lthey need to stick with preaching the Kingdom instead of invading private and personal choices of their members if it does not violate Gods word.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-12 09:49:10

  Welcome, Leachmar1.
  
  I agree with you that our dress should always be appropriate to the occasion and bring honor to God. When I say appropriate to the occasion, I have in mind Paul's words that he became a Greek to the Greek and a Jew to the Jew. One has to ask, if we went from door-to-door well dressed but without a tie as is common in business attire these days, would we be visually more appealing to our audience or less? Those wearing suits are upper management, bankers, sales people, and TV Evangelists asking for money. As for our sisters, pantsuits are common in business, so no reproach there. I think you said it all, and I agree, when you said, "they need to stick with preaching the Kingdom instead of invading private and personal choices of their members if it does not violate Gods word." So true.