Covering Chapter 5 Paragraphs 10-17 of God’s Kingdom Rules
From paragraph 10:
“Decades before 1914, true Christians already understood that 144,000 faithful followers of Christ would rule with him in heaven. Those Bible Students saw that the number was literal and that it began to be filled back in the first century C.E.”
Well, they were wrong.
Surely if it’s okay for the publishers to make unsubstantiated assertions, it’s okay for us to do the same. That being said, we will try to substantiate ours.
Revelation 1:1 says that the revelation to John was presented in signs, or symbols. So when in doubt, why assume a literal number? Revelation 7:4-8 speaks of 12,000 drawn from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. Verse 8 speaks of the tribe of Joseph. Since there was no tribe of Joseph, this must be an example of one of the signs or symbols that are representative of something else. At this stage, it is not necessary for us to understand what is being represented, but only that a symbol is being used rather than something literal. Following on this reasoning, we are told that the number sealed from each tribe is 12,000. Can one seal a literal 12,000 people from a symbolic tribe? Is there reason to believe that literal things are being mixed here with symbolic things? Are we to assume that whatever these 12 tribes represent, exactly the same number of humans is found to be worthy from each tribe? That would seem to defy both the laws of probability and the nature of free will.
The Insight book states: “Twelve therefore seems to represent a complete, balanced, divinely constituted arrangement.” (it-2 p. 513)
Since the number 12, and multiples thereof, is used "to represent a complete, balanced, divinely constituted arrangement", which is exactly what it depicted in Revelation 7:4-8, they assume different when it comes to the number 144,000? Does it seem consistent that 12 symbolic tribes X 12,000 symbolic sealed ones = 144,000 literal sealed ones?
From paragraph 11:
“What, though, were those prospective members of Christ’s bride assigned to do while they were yet on the earth? They saw that Jesus had emphasized the preaching work and had connected it to a period of harvest. (Matt. 9:37; John 4:35) As we noted in Chapter 2, for a time they held that the harvest period would last 40 years, climaxing with the gathering of the anointed to heaven. However, because the work continued after 40 years elapsed, more clarification was needed. Now we know that the harvest season—the season for separating wheat from weeds, faithful anointed Christians from imitation Christians—began in 1914. The time had come to focus attention on the gathering of the remaining number of that heavenly class!”
The writer admits we were wrong about the harvest starting in 1874 and ending in 1914, but now he states we “know”—not believe, but “know”—that the harvest began in 1914 and continues down to our day. Where does this accurate knowledge come from? Supposedly from the two scriptures that accompany this assertion.
“Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few.” (Mt 9:37)
“Do you not say that there are yet four months before the harvest comes? Look! I say to you: Lift up your eyes and view the fields, that they are white for harvesting. Already” (Joh 4:35)
Jesus doesn't say that the harvest will be great. He speaks in the present tense. Still in the present tense, he tells his disciples to view the fields that are then, in his day, "white for harvesting". What mental gymnastics must we engage in to construe "are" as referring to conditions 19 centuries ahead? Sometimes it seems that the technique the publishers use to find a "proof text" is to do a search on a key word or phrase, like "harvest", and then just plug those results into the body of an article and hope no one will notice that the Scriptures just don't work for the point being made.
From paragraph 12:
“From 1919 onward, Christ kept guiding the faithful and discreet slave to emphasize the preaching work. He had made that assignment in the first century. (Matt. 28:19, 20)”
According to this, the assignment to preach was made in the first century, but it wasn’t made to the faithful and discreet slave, because our latest understanding is that there was no faithful and discreet slave until 1919. So the feeding program that the master put in place before leaving was not intended to sustain his domestics after he left in 33 CE, nor was feeding needed in the intervening centuries. Only in the 20th century were the domestics in want of spiritual provisions.
Forget about the fact that there is no proof for this new understanding. Ask yourself if it is even remotely logical.
Paragraphs 14 and 15
These paragraphs speak of the wrong understanding that “true Christians” had prior to and during the first years of Rutherford’s tenure as President. They believed in four hopes: two for heaven and two for earth. Admittedly, these wrong understandings were the result of human speculation and human interpretation involving made-up antitypes. What a mess we get ourselves into when we put human wisdom and Scriptural speculation on a par with the Word of God.
Did anything change in the 20s and 30s? Did we learn our lesson? Was the use of speculative antitypes abandoned? Did the new understanding concerning the resurrection hope rely solely upon what is actually said in Scripture?
We are now taught that types and antitypes which are not found in Scripture are wrong and go beyond what is written. They should not form the foundation of doctrine. (See Going Beyond What Is Written.) Given this, are we to expect that Witnesses under Rutherford in the 30s arrived at a true understanding of the resurrection hope – an understanding we continue to hold to this day – based not on types and antitypes and wild speculation, but on actual scriptural evidence? Read on.
Paragraph 16
Alas, it seems the Governing Body is willing to ignore its own directive to reject human fabricated antitypes when it comes to its own most cherished teachings. Thus, they claim that the new understandings revealed from 1923 onward were brilliant “flashes of light” revealed by Jesus Christ through holy spirit.
“How did holy spirit guide Christ’s followers to the understanding that we cherish today? It happened progressively, through a series of flashes of spiritual light. As early as 1923, The Watch Tower drew attention to a group with no heavenly aspirations who would live on earth under Christ’s reign. In 1932, The Watchtower discussed Jonadab (Jehonadab), who attached himself to God’s anointed Israelite King Jehu to support him in the war against false worship. (2 Ki. 10:15-17) The article said that there was a class of people in modern times who were like Jonadab, adding that Jehovah would take this class “through the Armageddon trouble” to live here on the earth.” – par. 16
So the antitypical Jonadab class that prefigured a non-anointed class of Christian, who are not God's children, was a "flash of spiritual light" from Jesus Christ? Apparently, Jesus also flashed forth the light that the six cities of refuge prefigured the salvation of this secondary class of Christian known as the Other Sheep. And the proof of this is that the Watchtower says so.
So we must reject antitypes not found in Scripture except when told not to. In short, it is the Watchtower, not the Bible, that tells us what is true and what is false.
Paragraph 17 and the Box “A Great Sign of Relief”
Given that there is no Scriptural proof to support this teaching, the Governing Body must try to conjure up evidence using other means. One of their favorite tactics is anecdotes. In this case, the audience enthusiastically accepted Rutherford's talk, so what he said must be true. If the number of people who accept a teaching is proof that it must be true, then we should all believe in the Trinity, or perhaps evolution, or both.
I have a good friend who would normally never accept anecdotal evidence, yet on this topic, he does. He tells me of his grandmother who was one of these people who were relieved at being told she didn't have the heavenly hope. This, for him, constitutes proof.
The reason, I firmly believe, that there is so much resistance to a single hope for Christians is that most just don't want it. They want to live forever as young, perfect humans. Who wouldn't want that? But when offered the chance at the "better resurrection", for them it is all, "Thanks Jehovah, but no thanks." (He 11:35) I don't think they have anything to worry about, personally—though this is just an opinion. There is, after all, the resurrection of the unrighteous. So these ones will not lose out. They may be disillusioned by realizing that they're in the same group as everybody else, even those without faith, but they'll get over it.
Nevertheless, we should realize that Rutherford's audience had been primed. First you have the confusion created by the previous four-hopes teaching of salvation. Then you had a serious of articles 1923 onward. Finally, came the landmark two-part article in 1934 that introduced the other sheep doctrine. Given all this preparation, is it any wonder that an emotion-packed delivery from the convention platform would have the effect described in the box, “A Great Sign of Relief”? All Rutherford did was bring it all together.
A Word about the 1934 Landmark Article
This study makes no mention of the 1934 two-part Watchtower study article published in the August 1 and 15 issues of that year. This is remarkable because this two-part series, titled “His Kindness”, is the linchpin of the Other Sheep doctrine. It is the article that first introduced this “brilliant flash of spiritual light” to the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yet, in this week’s study, the reader is led to believe that it wasn’t until 1935 that Jehovah’s Witnesses learned of this “new truth”. The historical fact is that they knew about it a full year before. Rutherford wasn’t explaining anything new, but just reiterating what was already known.
What is even more noteworthy is that a search of articles and publications explaining the introduction of this doctrine to Jehovah’s Witnesses always names 1935 as the landmark year and never makes mention of these two articles from the previous year. Going to the 1930-1985 WT Reference Index doesn’t help either. Under Other Sheep -> Discussion, it is not to be found. Even under the subheading Other Sheep -> Jehonadab, it is not referenced. Likewise, under Other Sheep -> City of Refuge, no mention is made to any article in 1934. Yet these are the main talking points of the article; the key antitypes upon which the doctrine is based. In fact, the doctrine is only based on antitypes. There is no scriptural link between John 10:16 or Revelation 7:9 and any Scripture speaking of an earthly resurrection. If there were, it would be repeated over and over in any article discussing the so-called earthly hope.
The apparent systematic avoidance of any reference to these two Watchtowers is very odd. It is like talking about the laws that are based in the U.S. Constitution, yet never making mention of the constitution itself.
Why is the article that started it all being virtually eradicated from the memory of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Could it be that anyone reading it would see there is no basis whatsoever in the Bible for this doctrine? I do recommend that all should look it up on the internet. Here is the link: Download 1934 Watchtower Volume. The first part of the study is found on page 228. The continuation is on page 244. I encourage you to take the time to read it for yourself. Make up your own mind about this teaching.
Remember, this is the hope we preach. This is the message of the good news we are told witnesses are spreading to the four corners of the earth. If it is a forlorn hope, there will be an accounting. (Ga 1:8, 9)
Archived Comments
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Comment by Johnsc11 on 2016-12-13 18:05:10
The reason the 12 tribes aren't lining up with the actual tribes is it is symbolic. Each of the names mentioned have a phrase associated with it. For example when the name of Judah was used in Genesis 29:35 says "NOW I WILL PRAISE THE LORD". Each of these names produced a phrase. If you take them in the order they are given. This is what it says:
"Now will I praise the LORD, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction, How fortunate! Happy am I! With great wrestlings have I wrestled and I have prevailed, For God hath made me forget all my toil, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, God has given me my wages, God has endowed me with a good gift; Now my husband will dwell with me, The LORD shall add to me, Thou shalt have this Son.”
IT DESCRIBES THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.
Now the 144,000 is hidden in the Bible many times. Here's a few.
1. The Jewish Age Israelites were supposed to be a picture of the Church in the Gospel Age. Jehovah tells us at Genesis 15:13 that the Israelites would be in bondage for 400 years. In their time a year was 360 days. Thus 400 x 360 = 144,000.
2. The tabernacle Ark of the Covenant was to be 1.5 x 1.5 x 2.5 cubits. That's 5.625. The interior of the most holy was 9 x 9 x 10. That's 810.
810 / 5.625 = 144. The numbers given to us for the dimensions was 10 x 10 x 10 = 1,000. This 144 x 1000 equals 144,000.
3. The feeding of the people by Jesus was he fed 5,000 by 5 loaves and 2 fish. The second feeding was 4,000 with 7 loaves and 2 fish. That's a total of 16 loaves and fish. And a total of 9,000 people were counted. 16 x 9,000 = 144,000. "Syriac Text says 2 not few as done many translations.
4. The 12 Trees in revelation produces fruit each month. 12x12 = 144. For a thousand years. 144x1000=144,000.Reply by anonymous on 2016-12-14 01:21:22
Interesting. And for your general information - 144 is the twelfth Fibonacci number, and the largest one to also be a square, as the square of 12 (which is also its index in the Fibonacci sequence). Now let's see if we can find any spiritual significance in that ?
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2016-12-13 18:16:35
"Well, they were wrong.
Surely if it’s okay for the publishers to make unsubstantiated assertions, it’s okay for us to do the same. That being said, we will try to substantiate ours."
? I love it.
I haven't even read the full article yet but that simple, powerful statement was worthy of applause from this little corner of England.
I read the book study material earlier this evening and said to my husband that I can't understand where the writers get the gall to make the statements in this book.
In all my 60 years experience of book study material, ( and I've sat cross legged on the floor while we studied the Babylon book in my formative years), I've never read a more fanciful piece of propaganda masquerading as truth.
"Well, they were wrong."
Bravo.
The Emporer's New Clothes is brought to life.
Thanks Meleti... Now to read the article. ?
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2016-12-13 18:30:08
"Sometimes it seems that the technique the publishers use to find a “proof text” is to do a search on a key word or phrase, like “harvest”, and then just plug those results into the body of an article and hope no one will notice that the Scriptures just don’t work for the point being made."
Yes, agreed, absolutely!
The digital age and the search facility has become a 'godsend' ? to the eisegesis method.
If one takes the trouble to read the context of each scripture cited over the last few years, you'll find a plethora of dodgy references that leave one scratching ones head in puzzlement. The mental gymnastics needed to make these random scriptures work lead the reader to either accept at face value what the writer is claiming, or exercise those brain cells and see through the fog.
That's one of the things that made me sit up, take notice and think.
Comment by Johnsc11 on 2016-12-13 19:15:48
Sorry. Error. ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-13 20:25:41
What comments are you referring to?
Comment by cx_516 on 2016-12-13 22:51:45
The links to the 1934 Watchtower (as well as 1925 in your previous article) have been very helpful to talking about these things with my wife. Its very easy to justify 'digging deep' for a family study when the CBS is essentially holding out these articles as evidence of divine direction. We had some good discussion over the topics in the articles and the lack of coherent evidence in the articles that support the conclusions drawn. My wife's succinct summary: "Those articles are just crazy. I don't understand the writing at all."
As you said Meleti, this is what we're supposed to be teaching new ones! As with the overlapping generations teaching, my wife and I like to say to ones in our hall, "I can't really teach this to students because I actually don't understand it myself." (We've only been pioneering for the last 15 years. Yeah, the problem must be us.)
With these JW customized doctrines, I see now that we're called upon to be true teachers as we're asked to be simple propagators of JW culture.
I was just reading a Philip K. Dick novel and he echo's my feelings on this topic:
“And yet he felt repelled by the teaching machines[JW publications]. For the entire Public School[Organization] was geared to a task which went contrary to his grain: the school was there not to inform or educate, but to mold, and along severely limited lines. It was the link to their inherited [JW]culture, and it peddled that culture, in its entirety, to the young[publishers]. It bent its pupils to it; perpetuation of the culture was the goal, and any special quirks in the children which might lead them in another direction had to be ironed out.”
― Philip K. Dick, Martian Time-SlipReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-14 06:46:02
Philip K. Dick came out with some really thought-provoking story lines. He was a one-of-a-kind writer.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-14 07:13:21
I really Hope that people are moved to partake whether in private or taking a public stand for others . I know that's asking a lot because of the Unfair Inquisitions of their Judicial system, Persecution by the whole JW community including your Family and Excommunication.
I really don't know what to say after this article....
Please accept Adoption into Gods household! You can only enter by being born again of the Holy Spirit says our Lord Jesus Christ. Please Obey His command to partake in the New Covenant.
Please don't limp on two opinions If you Know that the Governing Body is Wrong!!!
You are a Child of God!!!
Please Accept His Invitation ! He doesn't want you to be just a Solidier from Him.
He wants you at the Wedding feast!
I don't know how it can be any clearer after this article
You cannot simply "Join" in the Body of Christ !
You have to Born in...
Agape,
GWIT
Comment by lazarus on 2016-12-14 02:34:23
Thanks Meleti, excellent review once again, thanks to the link to the 1934 wt on his kindness. I think the Proclaimers Book makes ref to Wt 34, see below quotes.
Numbers.
Memorial. 1919-21,411
1922-33,411
1923-42,000
1924-62,694
1925- 90,434
Years 1926-28 no records big disappointment. No end!
1935 Memorial partakers 52,465
In attendance 63,146.
So in 1935 there were 11,000 who didn't partake. I guess because of this new teaching and today it's over 8million who aren't observing Christ command to partake! very sad.i was one of those for decades.
By the way if the number was literal 144,000 , then this number would of been close if not already reached by the 3rd century AD. If you disagree then staring in 33ce then a peak of 90,000 in 1925 surely that total would of been reached, for sure!!
Just highlighting how Rutherford could of looked at the numbers and realised , either we have it wrong eg literal number but symbolic, or add the secondary heavenly class to earth as the great crowd! I don't know, just speculating but what you see in the numbers especially from 1925 is a big drop in members. So, he had to make sure that any immediate announcements had to bring in people not keep them away. They had to be different! So a new name was born in 1931 & a new class identified in 1935. And we called it flashes of light!
But under scrutiny Meleti, as you highlighted in your article, and your review of the 1934 articles . It doesn't stack up to scriptural proof.
Personal experience. I remember a public talk back in the '90's. The brother posed the question. What's constituted ones anointing from 33ce? You would think Romans 8;14-16 the go to scripture for us JW's. No , his answer was, the Timing! In other words if you were born and accepted Christ, from 33 ce - 1935, you were of the anointed! I guess that reasoning seemed plausible in the light of The Societies teachings that 144,000 is literal. So, according to that logic, the time of your birth was the key not God Choosing & you accepting Christ.
It just shows shows the flaws in this teaching.
Also, the sheep and the Goats are not identified till the start of Armegeddon.
So who was this group of 1935? They weren't Christians, not according to our own teachings up until 1942. Confusing Isn't it.
No disrespect to those ones meant , just highlighting the teachings of the day.
The quotes showing this new unidentifiable group! Non Christian & not Jehovah's Witnesses.
"Earthly class has already appeared, but the members were not initially considered to be Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses
In 1923, during a convention in Los Angeles, California, U.S.A., it was explained that those sheep must make their appearance, not during the Millennium, but during the concluding days of this system of things. (Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind II 2001 p. 254).
A CHRISTIAN is one who is anointed by Jehovah through Christ Jesus and who is therefore a follower of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Head of all true Christians, and therefore the true Christians constitute the members of his body. (Col. 1: 18) (The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 252).
At that time the Jonadabs were not considered to be “Jehovah’s witnesses.” (See The Watchtower, August 15, 1934, page 249.) However, a few years later, The Watchtower of July 1, 1942, stated: “These ‘other sheep’ [Jonadabs] become witnesses for Him, on the same wise that the faithful men before Christ’s death, from John the Baptist all the way back to Abel, were the never-quitting witnesses for Jehovah.” (Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom 1993 p. 83).Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-14 04:09:20
Hi!
So how many people" missed" out? What were the worldwide numbers those years? Do you know? 1919-2016 approximately?
Agape,
GWITReply by lazarus on 2016-12-14 07:15:15
Hi GWIT , thanks for your reply. amoreomeara Has a link. I hope that helps.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-14 07:41:19
Hi Lazarus! ( I adore that name for so many reasons nowadays )
How many in attendance at these memorials? ( see link)
You know, The Governing Body's Worldwide Invitation to Their Memorial of Jesus Christ?
This is really just a ceremony of a Public Rejection of the New Covenant.
When did this ceremony or JW tradition of memorializing a "dead"Jesus Christ (?) began ?
Agape,
GWIT
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-14 07:31:32
Good information. Thanks Lazarus.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-12-14 14:25:20
The idea was originally that anointing was 'first come, first served'. This was quite convenient, in that it allowed for some false modesty: Sorry I'm anointed and you're not, but you simply were born too late. Also, the dying off of the anointed served as an Armageddon-nearness barometer. But with the 2007 QfR article (the maybe-some-are-being-anointed-even-now article), which explained a phenomenon that had yet to become evident to the publishers, you now have a very weird anointing methodology: First come, first served up until 1935, and then selective anointing (on no apparent principle) after that. What a head-scratcher! The god who 'doesn't do a single thing without revealing it to his prophets' sure has left us in the dark on that one.
One thing that got me thinking about this was that someone I know got anointed, and his anointing conveniently got him some things that I knew he wanted. It struck me that granting membership in an elite club through an unverifiable process was not my god's way of doing things.
So you have an unverifiable process that operates on no rational principle that serves to preserve the organizational power structure. Hmmm.Reply by lazarus on 2016-12-14 15:18:31
lol so true, I understand what your saying and it used to confuse me. I felt like we had our own " mysteries " like the trinity. There have been these teachings that knawed at me for years , I always felt some of these doctrines just didn't make any sense.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-14 03:47:18
So the significance of the" index" you posted answers a lot of questions for me.
From 1930-1985 They actively sought to shut up the kingdom of the heavens (inspired by whatever spirit they claim to operate by.)
1985 and ongoing - denys members the biblical gift of being baptized in the Name of the Holy Spirit .Phrasing changed to being baptized in the Name of the Organization right before Immersion.
Annual meeting year 2011? Message-"Basically we 7-8 people have control like the Pope now" -A Claim of Apostolic succession.
2014- Reports of Intense persecution executed by the Orders of Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses for partaking of the Lords evening Meal. ( would love to see the numbers)
Now they deny operating under the Holy Spirit or being inspired by it to explain away their failing 144,000 Doctrine but now Have now openly Blashepmed Against the Spirit.
What a sad state of affairs Meleti...
Agape,
GWITReply by amoreomeara on 2016-12-14 06:01:03
Hi GWIT,
Here is a link for numbers of partakers:
http://meletivivlon.com/2015/01/03/memorial-partakers-2014/
2012 partakers: 12604
2013 partakers: 13204
2014 partakers: 14121
2015 partakers: 15177
With regards the 144,000, over 2000 years would mean an average of just 72 newly anointed christians added per year.
I once had a conversation with my JW friends about the evil-doer executed next to Jesus. Was he anointed, or part of the other sheep? They maintained that he couldn't possibly be anointed because he didn't have "a record of faithfulness", but were also perplexed because they believed that the other sheep weren't gathered until later.
Thanks so much for your excellent work Meleti, reading your articles (and the comments!) are one of the highlights of my week! :-)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-14 06:42:22
What a great question, Amoreomeara. I shall remember that for the next time I'm engaged in an "other sheep" discussion with old JW friends.
Reply by Candace on 2016-12-14 08:52:29
I was told the evil doer next to Jesus was "other sheep" because he died before Jesus did, just like all the faithful ones that died before Jesus would join us in paradise.
And this year we already had a two part watchtower study about the Lords Evening Meal and it explained that the reason for the increasing numbers is because a lot of people coming into the truth from developing lands are still attached with the traditional idea of going to heaven and haven't had accurate knowledge yet.. or the person has an emotional or mental problem.
Well that was what made sense to me a few months ago. It seriously did but now inside I am so confused its hard to know what/who to believe anymore.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-14 09:31:21
I feel for you, Candace. All I can say is that in answer to who or what to believe, the Who is Jesus and the What is God's Word the Bible.
Reply by lazarus on 2016-12-14 14:53:42
Hi Candace and welcome, I was in your shoes a year ago, like Meleti's advice, trust in Christ , the word. I still attend meetings with my family, however my experience is following Jesus advice is important, at Matt 10:16"...prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. " I find this forum a place where you can express yourself freely. Keep examining Acts 17:11.
Reply by amoreomeara on 2016-12-15 04:46:57
Hi Candace,
Yes, they too had been told that the evil doer died first, but when we studied the scriptures we found this in John 19:32 "So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33 But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs."
Why did they break the legs of the other 2, but not of Jesus?
The practice of breaking their legs was actually a kindness! It meant that they couldn't bear weight on their legs and would die more quickly of asphyxiation.
This "mercy" was carried out to the first and second man, but when they came to Jesus they didn't need to, because "they saw he was already dead". Instead they pierced his side and both blood and water flowed out, a sign that he had been dead for a while.
These scriptures show us that Jesus died before the evil doer.
Which brings me back to the original question I asked, is the evil doer one of the anointed, or one of the other sheep?
They then said that he couldn't be anointed because he wasn't baptised, so we looked at Acts 10:47, where Cornelius and family were anointed before being baptised.
Next they quoted the verse (I can't remember the ref, sorry!) where Jesus tells his disciples that they will be rewarded for staying with him though persecution, saying that the disciples had spent longer with Jesus.
I pointed out that when his persecution was at it worst his disciples had been scattered, with Peter outright denying any association, whilst the evil doer defended him from the verbal abuse of the other criminal.
Finally, they concluded it was because he didn't have a "record of faithfulness" that qualified him to be anointed. I said that didn't seem to bother Jesus, if he found him acceptable, who are we to say he isn't?
Leaving quietly, I totally agree with you about Paul, although perhaps it is of some comfort that even as Paul was at his most deceived God could see his heart only wanted to serve him (John 16:2-3) and brought him into true relationship with him through Christ Jesus!
Sorry for the long post! I'm supposed to be writing an important email to my Uni, I think I am trying to avoid it!
:-)Reply by StMalj on 2016-12-15 05:37:20
Excellent reasoning!
The Bible just opens up when you shine light on the darkness of teachings of Men.
The Holy Spirit of God is our Greatest teacher. God sent another Helper like Jesus according to scripture.
If He , Jesus Christ, truly lives within us all who are anointed by Christ -then what need is there for a governing body to govern Christ 's own Body?
The Cost of His chosen (Body of Christ) is Righteous blood that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses certainly do not have.
So the price is Surpassingly and Unreachably High.
They now openly publicized that the "spirit" in which guides their teachings leads them to errors that last for years affecting millions of lives through the Century.
So
Why are we listening to this foolishness again? This is an Epiphany of sorts for me.
Concerned,
StMaljReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-15 08:12:24
Welcome, StMalj. Good reasoning!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-15 08:23:50
Good points, Amoreomeara. I might add another example. Stephen was martyred shortly after Pentacost. No time to build up a "record of faithfulness". Some do need time to come around while others do not. What counts is the heart and only God and Christ can read that. As for the requirement of anointing, the faithful men of old are included, since they also reached out for the better resurrection. (He 11:35) It isn't a special anointing that is required to become a child of God, but being declared righteous by God which we know Abraham was. (Ro 4:2,3)
I guess the long and the short of it is that we cannot say for sure either way, but the judgment lies with Jesus, so precisely what he meant by "you will be with me in paradise" will be seen in the resurrection.
Reply by leaving_quietly on 2016-12-14 19:00:13
@amoreomeara wrote: "They maintained that he couldn’t possibly be anointed because he didn’t have “a record of faithfulness”"
Funny... neither did Paul, yet he was not only anointed while actively persecuting Christians, Christ himself anointed him!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-14 23:15:22
Now that really is thought provoking! Thank you, Leaving_Quietly.
Reply by mailman on 2016-12-16 05:45:45
In light of the question, the following verses are worth pondering:
Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? - Isaiah 40:13
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ." - 1 Cor. 2: 16
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:9
The problem with the WT is sometimes it tries to answer questions it has no jurisdiction over. And when they publish a speculation that is rendered as doctrine, that's when deception comes next.
Comment by lazarus on 2016-12-14 08:54:28
Hi Meleti, there was a brother, were I live, who partook of the emblems in the 1930's. However when this new revelation came out in 1935 about John 10:16 & the great crowd, the Jehonadabs, he wasn't sure of himself. He still partook. It was the lead up to the April 1938 memorial. He was praying if he should continue or not partaking as he now wasn't sure of his calling. Then the watchtower of March 15, 1938 appeared. Pages 83-89. That answered his prayer, & he stopped partaking!
The articles delves into Romans 8. With constant reference to Jehonadabs. If you get time, it would be a great follow up on your review of the 1934 articles
It seems this new teaching needed more proof . Of course, my only reference is this brothers personal experience, it seems now they needed to give this new teaching some scriptural meat, as it were.
.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-14 09:30:51
Candace this revelation is Very emotionally distressing!
When my generation began to awaken they told us we were crazy but discouraged professional help.
Our parents didn't know . I don't think Anyone did but apparently a Select Few.
This is bananas!
I can't help to think about my Friend who just committed suicide....
Come quickly Lord Jesus!!!!Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-12-14 14:45:26
One reason so many don't want the "heavenly" hope, as described by the organization, is that it leaves no room for 'inheriting the earth'. True, they say that Jesus and the 144k 'inherit' the earth as the area they will rule over, but they also say that those who go to heaven rule from there and (apparently) never come back. It sounds a lot like 'leave your loved ones forever to live in a place and manner you can't understand'. No wonder there are so few takers.
If the "heavenly" hope were described as 'being with Jesus in paradise', my guess is that everybody would go for it.
It reminds me of the scene in La Vita e Bella where the waiter convinces the customer to choose a certain meal by presenting a bunch of fictitious alternatives that are less attractive.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2016-12-14 10:23:02
Candace, I feel for you and the rest who are confused, maybe including myself to some extent. No one has come up with a decent explanation as to why the numbers of the anointed are falling. That is probably because JWs have set up something that wasn't quite scripturally accurate in the first place.
It is similar with the resurrection. Some will be resurrected to heaven and others to the earth. We will all have to wait and see. Maybe then we will look back and think, why on earth did we make it all so complicated.
Don't get loaded down, but do make sure that what you do believe is what the scriptures say. If you think the interpretation you are reading, wherever it is, looks strange, maybe it is. But don't just write it off, take your time to examine it to your satisfaction. Jehovah must surely bless those efforts in line with 1 John 4:1.
Comment by Search-truth on 2016-12-14 18:39:11
Meleti, I can tell you had a lot of fun tearing apart this book study article..lol lol
Loved every word you wrote.. When I read this, I'm not sure what emotion I felt considering the number of decades I wasted following this lying, controlling & deceitful organization. But here goes. Anger, betrayal, hatred, revulsion, disgust, abhorrence, frustration, vengeful, fooled, bamboozled, conned. Did I miss any words? I would of added some other words, but they wouldn't be appropriate for this forum... Does anyone remember the mood ring? Well it would of exploded if I was wearing it...
Again Meleti, thank you for all the time, effort you put forth every week...
I hope I can settle down & sleep tonight..hahaha
SearchReply by mailman on 2016-12-16 05:33:18
Honestly, instead of being uplifted reading this book, there are portions that just upped sense of doubt and confusion. Doubt and confusion are exact opposites of faith. Hence, instead of being uplifted in spirit, a thinking Christian would end up being weary with questions hanging in his mind. But for a typical JW, well, no need to doubt, just believe every word from the book and go in peace. :)
Comment by leaving_quietly on 2016-12-14 18:45:25
Just a comment about the 12 tribes. Many say that the tribes listed in Revelation can't be the literal tribes of Israel because of the listing doesn't match. I beg to differ, the tribes list does match a listing of tribes by the second year of coming out of Egypt, with the exception of Dan. (Num 1:1) It appears Levi replaces Dan in the list in Revelation. There is a noted exception in Numbers 1 regarding Levi, though.
Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed; - Num 1:26
out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000; - Num 1:20
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; - Num 1:24
out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000; - Num 1:40
out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000; - Num 1:42
out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh 12,000; - Num 1:34
out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000; - Num 1:22
out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000; - Num 1:47 (NOTE: there was a special handling of the Levites)
out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000; - Num 1:28
out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000; - Num 1:30
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000; - Num 1:32 (Joseph through Ephraim)
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed. - Num 1:36
Dan is mentioned in Numbers (Num 1:38)
1 Chronicles 2:1,2 lists the sons of Israel. Manasseh is not mentioned because Manasseh was not a direct son of Israel. Neither was Ephraim. Manasseh and Ephraim were Joseph's sons. Both had their lineage listed in Numbers, but Joseph was the paternal head listed with it being noted as "through Ephraim).
The NWT vs. other translations muddies things a bit. In the NWT, Manasseh was considered a half-tribe ("half tribe of Manasseh") (Num 32:33; Num 34:14; Deut 3:13; and more...) In other translations, these same verses are rendered "half the tribe of Manasseh". The word "the" makes a huge difference in understanding. Josh 13:7,8 mentions "the other half tribe" (NWT). Other translations render this "the other half of the tribe of Manasseh". If the NWT is correct, and Manasseh was a half tribe, then it would make sense that the other half tribe was that of Ephraim, though never mentioned. However, the Hebrew doesn't say "other half" at all. It says "With whom". Most translations take this to mean "the other half of the tribe of Manasseh" such that the tribe of Manasseh was split.
Comment by stephen on 2016-12-14 22:06:52
quote; I don’t think they have anything to worry about, personally—though this is just an opinion. There is, after all, the resurrection of the unrighteous. So these ones will not lose out. They may be disillusioned by realizing that they’re in the same group as everybody else, even those without faith, but they’ll get over it.
I think that's good that the JWs are not condemned because most of them are good people that want to please God, they are just deceived by using the fear of death to manipulate them.
Comment by StMalj on 2016-12-15 04:05:47
Keep up the Great work Brothers!
Your work is greatly appreciated by those who have benefited from the teachings here on this site
Brother LQ,
If Israel is literal where are the records to prove it? Surely there is a back up copy somewhere since this is crucial to salvation of all.
StMaljReply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-15 22:50:29
Yes Robert. Virgin Jewish men. That's the literal interpretation.
Now I'm not saying that there is not some literal fulfillment. I leave the possibility always open because of the way I see things. There's a flip side to every coin I believe in prophecy.
But yea, where are the records ? There must be literally a way God has made for us all to verify?
I've heard that the HS is testifying to certain Jewish Christians what their tribe is. I cannot confirm or deny. You can't really verify this I think? Because God takes us all on different journeys for truth.
But this same God never changes...right? So we should be able to be verify . Both Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians.
Back to "genealogies" and "arguments"? Can't say Saul would be proud if we did that. And I firmly believe in his appointment.
Paul will be under the same scrutiny as before I believe and the West will insist Paul is right. We've studied him intellectually for a long time. Paul was an intellect btw. The East -well they are very critical of Paul . It will be very interesting to watch this unfold and see what all the major religious leaders eventually come up with as far as what teachings or heaven forbid "doctrine" that we the people should "accept" on this point alone.
At least that's overall how I currently see things anyway.
GWIT
Comment by robert6512 on 2016-12-15 18:46:39
It seems like the "literal" nature of the 144,000 always seems to overlook an obvious flaw. If this number is literal, then the entire passage is literal. So, if each group of 12,000 is from a tribe of Israel, then they are all Jews, correct? Then how does salvation come to the Gentiles - supposedly ALL of whom were in line to be "anointed" in the first century - if all the "literal" 144,000 were literally Jews, too?
Something "literally" doesn't add up.
Comment by mailman on 2016-12-16 05:26:00
Why the admissions are being done only now? Or were there direct admissions of error of interpretation early years after 1914?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-16 10:21:32
Since they've set the start of the appointment of the slave at 1919, they can dis the work of Russell without fear of undermining their claim to divine appointment. Even if they believed some things in the early years, they can say that was due to teachings from Russell which had to be cleaned away by Jesus as he refined the newly appointed slave.
Reply by mailman on 2016-12-16 20:41:29
Thanks Meleti. I am more than convinced now that the WT would never publish something that can easily incriminate itself. They have a way of presenting information that can be eventually adjusted without suffering much condemnation or a point of no return. Do we call that clever? ;)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-17 08:02:59
Exactly mailman. It is that cleverness, evident so often in their writings, that convinces me this is not done unwittingly. How fitting that the Bible speaks of "artfully contrived false stories". There is a creative art behind such persuasive writings.
Reply by lazarus on 2016-12-17 15:30:45
Yes I agree with you both and frustrating in trying to help our friends.
If I can add to your discussion mailman and Meleti, it's seems to me what the challenge isn't about. It isn't about, accuracy of doctrines. Although breaking that to bite size peices is important and clear. But I've come to appreciate,It's more about proving the perception of how one views that doctrine first. This skill is difficult. Jesus perceived (epiginosk) the thoughts & heart condition of the people. Luke 5:22.
When it came to the religious leaders, he perceived their craftiness Luke 20:23 & Matt 22:18 , when his disciples didn't get something in their thinking- Matt 16:5-12 , I feel like the disciples as well at times.
My personal observation of course, but logic proves a point but doesn't motivate an individual whereas the perception does, Eg must attend every meeting heb 10:24,25 and because if I don't and don't have valid reasons, eg on sickbed, your perceived as being weak in the faith, not good association,not obeying command to meet, borderline losing out on everlasting life in need of a shepherding call, your lucky if you get that, of course. And likewise, they admit to mistakes and errors now according to feb 2017 wt, ones will now reason, it Shows their humility, perception.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-18 08:20:15
So true, Lazarus.
Comment by anonymous on 2016-12-16 09:27:33
I have some genuine questions here. Who actually wrote the Apocalypse of John aka Revelation? (Please give convincing evidence for this, not just speculation) Who determined this Apocalypse should be in the New Testament Canon? Thanks.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-16 10:17:17
Hi !
I cannot prove it but I do not believe that John of Patmos is the Apostle John.
If I'm wrong then the religious leaders should provide us a better way to research this assertion outside of their Church traditions smh
My 2cents,
GWITReply by anonymous on 2016-12-16 17:27:37
Thanks for your reply and your honesty. The thought has occured to me that men will declare certain passages found in the King James Bible as spurious, like the last 12 verses of Mark, the account of the woman caught in the act of adultery, or 1 John 5:7,8. But if this is possible, then it is also possible certain books are spurious, like Jude and Revelation. I don't really gain too much from Revelation, to be honest. I would rather read other New Testament books which focus on God's grace and love shown through Jesus Christ to us.A lot of our beliefs are bound up in that one apocalyptic book, and I think our fascination with it stems from Millerite origins. Think of it - getting out of Babylon the Great, 1000 year reign, 144,000, Satan hurled down to earth in 1914, "the great tribulation" (although the King James just says those who come out of great tribulation). The list goes on. Take this one book out of the equation, and we would have to start focusing on more upbuilding stuff. We have always been an apocalyptic end of days movement really
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-16 19:02:45
Well..I agree. That's why I gave up studying prophecy after I left the JWs. Most of us have been studying Revelation,Ezekiel,Isaiah and Daniel since we could walk and who really wants to walk in doom and gloom again after Light!
"We have always been an apocalyptic end of days movement really"
Very true.Now all denominations will be too.
A very wise brother showed me this scripture years ago on this site when I became weary
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." Revelation 1:3
It is supposed to be a happy read. lol Everyone is literally excited this "end times around "but former JWs...including me.
As far as inspiration ooohhh it's inspired ! I just think that Christian tradition maybe wrong and this is another revelator. It's the style of writing maybe?
They could be right . It doesn't make much difference either way to me personally. I know and Believe that God preserved it for a time such as this.
Now the writing team on this site will be probably forced to write apocalyptic articles because that's all the Governing Body feeds us.
I am hoping we can get to the point of spreading Good news about John's revelation.
For many of us who have tried to crack this book for decades...I believe you'll find if you take a second look it may be easier to understand.
This is an amazing Bible https://www.amazon.com/NIV-First-Century-Study-Bible-Hardcover/dp/0310938902
Read Revelation again though this lens...and you'll never see this book the same way ;)
Maybe our message for now should be a remix of "The Gentile Times are ending?"
Still praying about it....
Comment by PoetryofProvidence on 2016-12-17 16:08:59
Do take care Meleti in your discussions regarding the "symbol" of the tribe of Joseph , please note that altho in Genesis Jacob/Israel claims Ephraim and Manasseh for himself an blesses them (therefore in the tribal distribution of land each were given territory legally ) Do note on his deathbed prophecy (inspired or God breathed )in Genesis 49 that Joseph is noted as "a tribe" given note of "his future" in the outcome of the tribes , and verse 28 specifically denotes Joseph as one of the tribes of Israel so for me Revelation is not at all in err in it's statement but further delineates the fullness of truth . So while Jacob gave legal recognition to Josephs sons , it was to Joseph the prophetic word applied. (also by doing so Joseph received a double portion in the legal distribution of land and goods and inheritance belonging to Jacob) So in fact Revelation indeed does not stray from "the Israel of God" in prophetic announcement. (Genesis 47-49)
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-17 17:59:49
Very exciting PoetryOfProvidence ! I see what you see:)
Brother AmosAu has excellent insights on the GT that I Agree with see(www. discussthetruth.com) The idea of a "symbolic " Armageddon is exciting. I still believe in a literal one ;) But maybe both???
I believe We are running on the same track in the Bible ...It's pretty Amazing I think:)
God is awesome!!!!! I'm ridiculously excited. Best news in a long time guys!
Oh and thanks for the explanation of the Genesis accounts! Can't wait to read it again now!Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-17 18:44:50
Btw is it JW tradition that Paul's name was changed due to conversion? I can't remember.
I don't think that's the case I could be wrong tho.
Isn't Saul just Paul's Roman name ?
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-17 19:15:04
PoetryofProvidence,
This is not a strong argument but after rereading your post ...
I wonder.. what would be the point of God changing the names of Abram, Sarai, Jacob etc.It's always a spiritual thing in the Bible.
I'm not sure God intends for us to verify lineage this way as a spiritual nation now.
There are many who disagree with Paul's Gospel so to speak. His arguments are undeniable and he flawlessly applied basic themes from Genesis to his work ! Jesus gave this to Revelation to the Apostle Paul for the Gentiles!
How people Get around Peter's confirmation of Paul and the Cornelius account is beyond me.
I'm short of time to fully explain but again for those who are wondering---I'm not saying there's no literal fulfillment. Just not in the way I believe most would believe. I see no positive outcome in verifying physical lineage. Maybe somebody could explain this argument ?Reply by PoetryofProvidence on 2016-12-17 22:11:30
Shannon I was only replying to "Joseph" not being considered a "tribe of Israel" whether fleshly or spiritual was not intended , even if Paul called the nations who became followers of Christ as the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16)the one flock which contains both physical Israel and those adopted/grafted into the one true vine . no real attempt was made here concerning the prophetic announcements only establishing that Joseph was considered the tribe as far back as his birth .
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-17 23:21:08
Ok I thought that is what you meant so we are on the same page. I'm just wondering what the flip side of this is.
Are people suggesting that the listing in Revelation is an error?? I must be missing something here. What is the traditional understanding of that listing? I am wondering if this is the gateway to the argument for a literal seed . This tends to lead to:
--The Apostle Paul really didn't keep the Torah" type of arguments . ( He did ...but I believe he had a "when in Rome do as the Romans do" type attitude toward dietary restrictions. Which btw for a Zealous Jew like Saul could not have been easy.)
-- and the "accept the Torah or die " arguments.
For Jews who argue the Paul was the worst Jew ever and others who believe that Paul was the worst Christian ever --this is a huge grey area to a host of false teachings.
I guess I don't expect the" literal" arguments to have positive results. I really don't see how this doesn't turn into two extremes:
Paul was an Apostate -all gentiles must prostelyze to current Judaism, accept their version of Torah, their ever changing Oral law and whatever Messiah they accept.( This may be a real scenario ... they finished the altar for the temple in 2015 ...and plus current news)
Or
Paul was an Apostate- Universal salvation . No atonement or variations of this theology that leads to immoral behavior . The end is not near or humans are evolving with Gods help ( a different "Promise" being promoted that doesn't gel with the Apostles.
I'm sure there's a middle I'm not seeing . There's a piece of this picture that doesn't fit right....I can't figure it out.
I just re-read my reply...Sorry if it was harshly worded. I have a tendency I think to write in first person .
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-18 08:28:43
Agreed PoetryofProvidence. I appreciate you sharing that with us, and I agree with what you say.
Some have suggested that the 144,000 represents a number drawn only from natural Jews, while the "great crowd" depicted next represents a vast number drawn from the nations. In this case, even if the 144,000 number is literal, it only represents a part of the whole, so there is still no unambiguous foundation for the 144,000 doctrine taught by Witnesses.
However, I tend toward the understanding you have--if I'm reading your comment accurately--that the twelve tribes listed refer to the Israel of God, in which case, the 144,000 must be symbolic as it represents the type of government arrangement that these will make up, while the great crowd shown later refer to the unknown but vast number that will make up this government as a consequence of having successfully come through the great tribulation with their integrity intact.Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-18 09:28:45
Hi Meleti!
I hope all is well:) I'm always praying for you!
So your recent comments shuts all of my doors.
I'm going to stay in my lane and just focus on evangelizing.
I see exactly where this is all going.
Smh!
Thank you brothers for the love ,kindness and forgiveness you have shown me and my family .
I don't want get mushy because I'm a "G" lol
But you saved my life....Again!!!
I could never repay you ... ever.
Here come the tears....
I'm so grateful for Anointed Men and Women of God who still love Jesus and are willing to risk everything.
I'm so grateful to Jehovah today.
K I'll stop typing ❤️️
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-18 05:12:29
Hi all !
I have a question to ask that is bugging me. I don't want to start a firestorm of comments so please be respectful of this site and it's intent. I suggest finding an older relevant article to discuss this under or starting a topic on discussthetruth.com
My question is sincere. For those who argue no Atonement or variations that deviate from traditional Christian understanding:
What are your thoughts on the Lords Evening Meal? Was Jesus continuing a Hebrew tradition or starting a brand new thing?
Additionally, please don't use lexicons to run me in circles. Eastern Christianity argue over genealogies I think. The West argue over lexicons. It is Equally irritating.But... I will say that these arguments are confusing. Why only use Greek words to translate stuff?
What is this New Age non Hebrew Jesus that some are promoting? Or Do I have this messed up somehow?
Warm Christian Love,
Shannon
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-12-22 11:17:46
Hi. Just saw all the comments about the 144,000. Something minor: I have come to understand in the spirit, that God will in fact make a last covenant with a small remnant from Israel before Armageddon. That I am sure of because it was by the spirit that I understood it. I have considered the arguments and prayed to know if the 144,000 are of Israel. As of yet I am not sure because the spirit has not confirmed it. I will have to wait on that one.
Those are my 2 cents worth if it's worth anything...and one of my shorter comments. :)
Much love,Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-22 11:33:55
Yes!!!! That's what I believe too Yehorakam!!
The logistics become clearer as I read throughout the both sites. ( beoreans.net / discussthetruth.com)
How could this not be so? If not , what's the point of evangelizing ?
The new generation is leading the way into the millennium celebration!
I believe We are primarily
responsible for waking people up!
The Two Witnesses... We've witnessed these things....(as in group or generation-I'm definitely not trying to get a headache over these doctrines)
At least if you believe that the entire tribe of Joseph is a spiritual nation..maybe?Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-23 02:53:39
After a recent read I am confident this is the case!
Methuselah's death ushered in a new age =He is the key! And Noah = book of Enoch and Maccabees
Think Jude!
I hope this makes sense ...
Notice these type of "deaths" occurring -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian--and recent unexpected deaths under 70 in the news...---
--notice the Judiasm blessing/greeting of " 120 years and one day" . Thus my argument that Enoch and Maccabees contains inspired expressions and experiences.
If you watch the recent "Biblical" movie Noah ...Maybe you might see where I'm coming from?
I'm not sure about this "rapture" everyone is expecting. That's all I'll say for now.
Rachel /Benjamin is what I Personally see in the Revelation tribal listing....Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-23 03:10:39
I believe Joel is right about the translation issue with the Gospel of John I believe... not good news . I suspected this book to have this type of issue for some reason.
There's a sinster reason why this is a cloudy issue.
This is Very Important.
When did Jesus die ? Does anyone know? The "third Day/day"?
One more thing...John is allowed a typo . Paul is too. I'll explain more when I get a better way to explain this.
Ok AmosAU always beats me with this type of stuff ...aaarrgh lol he's right about John 1:1 btw .... Also the Immanuel typo I think Paul made in trying to quote Isaiah. I guess Paul's gospel is in question over not having auto correct?!!?
Please note if this turns into a free for all on any one of these Apostles' work ---you will lose me!
Please be respectful!
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-24 03:27:14
I wanted to make my comments about Methuselah clearer...
"Man of the dart/spear", or alternatively "his death shall bring judgment"[1]) is the man reported to have lived the longest at the age of 969 in the Hebrew Bible.[2] Extra-biblical tradition maintains that he died on the 11th of Cheshvan of the year 1656AM (Anno Mundi, after Creation), seven days before the beginning of the Great Flood.[3] Methuselah was the son of Enoch, the father of Lamech, and the grandfather of Noah."
I believe that Methuselah knew Adam and thus received oral traditions from him to pass on to many generations to come.
I 'm thinking that maybe this may shed light on the "generation teaching" or at the very least retire the "Anointed Death" watch that JWs do.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-12-23 12:22:50
God's word is truth: I hate to break it to you but we are not the two witnesses. They are 2 prophets to come. I'll leave it at that.
Much love,Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-12-23 16:31:16
Well... I am looking forward to your comments!
I don't know where they fit in this picture / timeline exactly....but...
I believe they are already here ;)
( as a composite class anyway)
I'm intrigued!
I believe we are in the "Moses/Joseph administration " season .....