[From ws11/16 p. 21 January 16-22]
If you are reading this for the second time, you will notice some changes. I realized I had mistakenly crossed two unrelated articles in this review and have now rectified that oversight. - Meleti Vivlon
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they have already freed themselves from captivity to false religion and the false religious teachings of men in obedience to the command found at Revelation 18:4.
“And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.” (Re 18:4)
A critical thinker is wise to ask why this command doesn't include instruction to join another religion as part of the process of getting out of Babylon the Great. All it tells us to do is to get out. There is no command to go anywhere else.
Let us bear that in mind as we review this article and its follow-up next week, which together are intended to "adjust" our understanding of precisely when all this occurred.
This opening article explains a little of the history of Israel’s exile in Babylon so as to lay the groundwork for the reasoning that will follow in the next article. As always, we will alert you to any errors or inconsistencies in the reasoning or facts presented.
The Wrong Year
The first such is found in the very first paragraph of the study:
IN 607 B.C.E., a massive Babylonian army under the command of King Nebuchadnezzar II invaded the city of Jerusalem. – par. 1
There is no support in the Bible for the year 607 B.C.E. as the date for this invasion. While it may be that 607 is the year that Jeremiah 25:11 began its fulfillment, secular historians are in agreement by and large that 587 B.C.E. is the year that the land of Israel was desolated, and the remainder of its inhabitants either killed or brought to Babylon.
When a Suggestion is not a Suggestion
This slipped by my notice on the first go-round, but thanks to alert reader Lazarus' comment, I can now give it the attention it so richly deserves.
In paragraph 6, we read that "For many years, this journal suggested that God's modern-day servants entered into Babylonian captivity in 1918 and that they were released from Babylon in 1919".
"For many years..." That's something of an understatement. I remember being taught this as a boy when we studied the book, "Babylon The Great Has Fallen!" God's Kingdom Rules. I am now almost 70! "For a lifetime" would be more accurate, and perhaps farther back than that. (I was unable to determine when this doctrine originated.) Why is the amount of time this teaching, which they now admit is false, persisted worthy of our criticism? Does it really matter how many years we had it wrong before getting it right? As we'll see when we review next week's study, Yes, it matters a very great deal.
"..this journal..." While we praise the candor of Bible writers such as King David and the Apostle Paul in admitting their sins publicly, our leadership is loathe to imitate those fine examples of faith. Here, the blame for this error is placed on a magazine, as if it were speaking for itself.
"...suggested..." Suggested!? The former teaching is being treated now as a mere suggestion, and not a doctrine which all were required for the sake of unity to agree with and preach and teach to others, including those studying to be baptized.
We will see in next week's study that the information on which the Governing Body now bases the new understanding was around when the former one, the one they are now disavowing, was first promoted. Not only was the information contradicting that former teaching available to them, but some of those most responsible for promoting that false teaching had seen the evidence against it first hand—had lived through the very events they were misinterpreting.
When someone has misled you and yet is unwilling to accept full responsibility and tries to water down the wrong by minimizing its impact ('it was only a suggestion'), would it be wise to blindly accept their next great interpretation?
Babylon the Great – Admission Criteria
Who comprise Babylon the Great? Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that all the world's religions, Christian and Pagan, form the great harlot. The reason is that Babylon the Great is the world empire false religion.
Consider: Babylon the Great is the world empire of false religion. – par. 7
It follows, then, that to be considered a member of this entity, a religion must be false. What constitutes being false in the eyes of Jehovah's Witnesses? Essentially, it is any religion that teaches falsehoods as doctrines of God.
It is important that we bear in mind that this criteria has been established by the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Bible principle that should guide us here is found at Matthew 7:1, 2, "Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged; and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you." So we are painted with the same brush we used to paint others. That's only fair.
Those studying this Watchtower article will be working under the assumption that escape from Babylon the Great means admission into the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Thus, when paragraph seven speaks of “God’s anointed servants actually breaking free from Babylon the Great”, the reader will assume that it is referring to the early Bible students who became Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1931 breaking free from all the false religions on earth.
Before we get into questioning the validity of such an assumption, we should point out one mistake in this paragraph. The claim made is that these early Bible students were persecuted during the First World War prior to 1918, but this persecution did not qualify as captivity to Babylon the Great because it originated with the secular authorities principally. Based on eyewitness testimony from members of the governing body at the time, this is not true as the following quote proves:
Be it noted here that from 1874 to 1918 there was little, if any, persecution of those of Zion; that beginning with the Jewish year 1918, to wit, the latter part of 1917 our time, the great suffering came upon the anointed ones, Zion (March 1, 1925 issue p. 68 par. 19)
(No 1900-Year Slave: On something of a side issue, it should be noted that the historical evidence provided in this study, as well as that provided in the current JW broadcast, flies in the face of the reasoning given us just a few months ago by David Splane when he claimed that for 1900 years there was no faithful slave providing food for Christians.)
Let us re-examine what paragraph 7 claims about 'God’s anointed servants actually breaking free from Babylon the Great'. This indicates that the Organization recognizes that God’s servants were anointed while still in Babylon the Great. Their membership within any religious organization did not constitute a rejection of their faith in Christ, nor their anointed status before God. God had chosen and anointed individuals while members of churches that taught falsehoods. According to the article, these ones were like the wheat described in Matthew chapter 13. The article continues to acknowledge this fact when it says:
The truth is that by that time an apostate form of Christianity had joined the pagan religious organizations of the Roman Empire as members of Babylon the Great. Even so, a small number of anointed wheatlike Christians were doing their best to worship God, but their voices were being drowned out. (Read Matthew 13:24, 25, 37-39.) They truly were in Babylonian captivity! – par. 9
Something not mentioned in the article—probably because it needs no mention among Jehovah’s Witnesses—is that getting out of Babylon the Great is achieved only by becoming a Jehovah's Witness. If God chose and anointed Christians while still in Babylon the Great in the 19th century who subsequently got out of the Great Harlot by become Bible Students (now Jehovah's Witnesses), then does it not follow that he continues to do so?
The Bible urges Christians this way: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins..." (Re 18:4) They are considered his people while still in Babylon the Great. So the Witness idea that one can only be anointed after one has been baptized as a Jehovah's Witness must be false. Additionally, this idea contradicts what this article states when it says that anointed ones left Babylon and joined the early Bible Students.
Returning to the definition of what makes a religion part of Babylon the Great, let us turn that brush on ourselves.
As anyone who has done an in-depth study of the teachings that are unique to JW.org can attest, it too teaches falsehoods. Not a single one of the uniquely JW.org teachings can be supported from Scripture. If you are coming to this website for the first time, we do not ask you to accept this statement at face value. Instead, go to the Bereoan Pickets Archive Site and under the Categories List on the homepage, open up the Jehovah’s Witnesses topic. There you will find extensive research delving into all the doctrines that are unique to JW.org. Please take the time to examine scripturally the doctrines which you may have taken as absolute truth for much of your life.
Perhaps, after many years of being taught that you belong to the one true Christian religion on earth, you find it hard to think of JW.org being part of Babylon the Great. If so, consider this characteristic of Babylon the Great as described in this week’s study:
Still, for the first few centuries of our Common Era, many people could read the Bible in either Greek or Latin. They were thus in a position to compare the teachings of God’s Word with the dogmas of the church. On the basis of what they read in the Bible, some among them rejected the unscriptural creeds of the church, but it was dangerous—even fatal—to express such opinions openly. – par. 10
Many of us on the site have done exactly what this paragraph describes. We have compared the teachings of God’s word with the dogmas of JW.org, and just as the paragraph states, we have found it dangerous to express our opinions openly. Doing so results in disfellowshipping (excommunication). We are shunned by everyone we have come to love, both family and friends. This is what happens when we speak the truth openly.
If getting out of Babylon the Great does not mean becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, we are left asking, “What does it mean?”
We shall address that next week. However, one thing to bear in mind is testimony from this week’s Watchtower.
Faithful anointed servants of God had to meet together in discreet groups. – par. 11
Rather than think as we have been taught to think—that salvation requires us to belong to an organization—let us realize that salvation is something achieved individually. The purpose of meeting together is not to achieve salvation, but to encourage one another to love and good works. (He 10:24, 25) We do not have to be organized to be saved. Indeed the first century Christians met in small groups. We can do likewise.
That is what being “called out of darkness” really means. The light does not come from an organization. We are the light.
“You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when located on a mountain. 15 People light a lamp and set it, not under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it shines on all those in the house. 16 Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.” (Mt 5:14-16)
Archived Comments
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Comment by simplyme on 2017-01-15 22:33:12
Meleti this was another great job of pointing out their failings by their own words. As to your last point about Jehovah's true people being the light. The GB love to use Proverbs 4:18 as to new light or understanding that comes from the GB but that scripture translated correctly backs up your point. From the Apostolic bible "But the ways of the just are likened to light--they radiate. They go before and give light until whenever the day should set up". Verse 19 is also appropriate. "But the ways of the impious are dark; they do not know how they stumble".
Comment by Enoch on 2017-01-16 01:30:14
Thanks for those comments Meletti. When the brothers give commentary on the Organizations history it becomes to me like a real life version of Animal Farm. The animals rebel against the tyranny of the Humans and by the end the Pigs claim the same authority over the animals and the flock ends up still being oppressed.
In one breath we praise Christians all through history for making a stand against leaders in the Church based on a love for God's word and then the GB and most of the membership criticize this when they see it in their own flock.
It makes me wonder what one of the bible students from the late 19th Century would say if they were to come back in the year 2017??
Here are some things that I thought stood out with the studies reasoning....
Paragraph 3. "Through Jeremiah, Jehovah advised the future exiles to accept their new situation and make the most of it. He said: “Build houses [in Babylon] and live in them. Plant gardens and eat their fruit. And seek the peace of the city to which I have exiled you, and pray in its behalf to Jehovah, for in its peace you will have peace.” (Jer. 29:5, 7) Those who submitted to the will of God lived a relatively normal life in Babylon. "
The advice to brothers by the Org in this twentieth and 21st Century has been almost opposite. Although the circumstances are different, does anyone else here think that we could of fared a bit better if brothers in the modern day were allowed to follow a similar course if they chose to? Not knowing the "day or hour"or "times or seasons"... wouldn't such a similar attitude do us well in this time as well?
I know of many brothers who were counselled exactly the opposite. "Don't build a house. Don't enjoy anything nice. Avoid commerce. Don't get married . Don't have a family. Don't get job skills. Avoid the non believing people like the plague except for recruiting." I think the example at Jer 29: 5,7 shows a balance that has been sorely missing from some congregations of JWs in the modern day. Jehovah knew that with the right perspective they could preserve their Jewish faith whilst still maintaining some form of community with "non believers". It's clear the Jews were seperate from the Babylonians without being extremist.
I'm sorry if that all sounds a bit discouraging but often times I feel like my mother led me "into" captivity when she got the truth...captivity to men and an unbalanced view of being no part of the world. Ecc 3:22 "So I saw that there is nothing better than for a man to have joy in his work—because that is his reward. Who will make him see what will come after him? "
In paragraph 9 it speaks of the Apostasy taking hold in the 4th Century and a few Christians holding out.....
quote""Historians refer to pagan Rome as having been “Christianized” in the fourth century. The truth is that by that time an apostate form of Christianity had joined the pagan religious organizations of the Roman Empire as members of Babylon the Great. Even so, a small number of anointed wheatlike Christians were doing their best to worship God, but their voices were being drowned out." unquote
I thought the brothers might like to know that although Arius was silenced the teaching that Jesus was not God "Arianism" still held strong in the Western parts of Europe for some time. This was held by more then just a few. This quote from Wikipedia shows that Arianism was still quite strong in the West until the 7th Century and literally hundreds of thousands if not millions were resisting the "Jesus Is God" teaching for a long time after Constantine and the Nicean Creed.
Quote from Wikipedia...
Arianism from the 5th to 7th century[edit]
'""Much of south-eastern Europe and central Europe, including many of the Goths and Vandals respectively, had embraced Arianism (the Visigoths converted to Arian Christianity in 376), which led to Arianism being a religious factor in various wars in the Roman Empire.[33] In the west, organized Arianism survived in North Africa, in Hispania, and parts of Italy until it was finally suppressed in the 6th and 7th centuries. Grimwald, King of the Lombards (662–671), and his young son and successor Garibald (671), were the last Arian kings in Europe."" End quote.
In Paragraph 13 the Society is once again "Animal Farming" with their analysis. They correctly point out the rightfulness of church members reading the bible in their own language and asking if their Church Dogma was in the scripture yet condemn that attitude in their own flock.
P13 Quote "" ‘Where in God’s Word is there mention of purgatory? of paid masses for the dead? of popes and cardinals?’ From the point of view of the church, this was an outrage. How dare the multitudes question church leaders! The church fought back. Men and women were condemned for heresy because they rejected teachings of the church,"" Unquote
Try reading that p13 quote but instead insert our lingo...." Where in God's word is there mention of a Governing Body?" "Where does it say to report? ". "Where does it ban Higher Education?" etc etc If you ask these things then you can in effect be "condemned for heresy" except it's called "apostasy" and "mental disease".
1Co 4:6 My brothers, it is because of you that I have taken Apollos and myself as examples of these things, so that in us you might see that it is not wise to go farther than what is in the holy Writings, so that no one of you may be lifted up against his brother.
In Paragraph 14 some similar reasoning follows on. The brothers quite rightly give commendation to the Bible Students yet they consistently criticize that current attitude in current believers.
quote "14 Many who thirsted for Bible truth fled to countries where the influence of the church was less pervasive. They wanted to read and study and converse with one another without being told what to think." unquote.
I understand that active members of JW.ORG will see this as simply trying to get the flock to be of one mind ( 1 Cor 1;10) but to me it shows the perils of going beyond what is written by hypocritically commending the stand of annointed Christians for challenging Church Authority whilst simultaneously using their "Church"(ORG) authority to silence anyone that questions them (GB).
Perhaps if the Society wants to teach lessons based on history they should also pay careful attention to Solomon's words and the propensity of men with short memories to repeat it.
Ecc 1:9 That which has been, is that which is to be, and that which has been done, is that which will be done, and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there anything of which men say, See, this is new? It has been in the old time which was before us.
Comment by Marina-Anastasia on 2017-01-16 09:50:15
Hi - my first post here - hope it's not too long! And apologies if it does not read too clearly I don't know how to format it.
An eclipse occurred in the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Assyriologists consider the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar to be 568 BCE.
The eclipse took place on the 4th of July. On the Hebrew calendar that is 9th Tammuz (the 4th month) 3192, if you use Tishri (the 7th month) as the month when the year turns. Alternatively it is 19th Tammuz 3193, if you use Nisan (the 1st month) as the month when the year turns.
Jerusalem fell between the 7th and 10th of Ab (the 5th month) in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.
(2 Kings 25:8-11) . . .And in the fifth month on the seventh [day] of the month, that is to say, the nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon, Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 9 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the king’s house and all the houses of Jerusalem; and the house of every great man he burned with fire. 10 And the walls of Jerusalem, all around, the entire military force of Chal·de′ans that were with the chief of the bodyguard pulled down. 11 And the rest of the people that were left behind in the city and the deserters that had gone over to the king of Babylon and the rest of the crowd Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard took into exile.
(Jeremiah 52:12-14) . . .And in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, [in] the nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, the king of Babylon, Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard, who was standing before the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem. 13 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the house of the king and all the houses of Jerusalem; and every great house he burned with fire. 14 And all the walls of Jerusalem, round about, all the military forces of the Chal·de′ans that were with the chief of the bodyguard pulled down.
If Tammuz (the 4th month) of 568 BCE is the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, then the Tammuz of the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar must be 586 BCE. Tammuz is followed by Ab (the 5th month) and that is the month when Jerusalem fell.
On the Hebrew calendar that is 21st to 24th July (7th – 10th Ab) 3174, if you use Tishri (the 7th month) as the month when the year turns.
Alternatively it is 9th -12th July (7th – 10th Ab) 3173, if you use Nisan (the 1st month) as the month when the year turns.
Allowing for the difference in Hebrew years, Jerusalem fell circa 586 BCE or 585 BCE if the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar is 568 BCE.
Other dates in relation to Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year (if his 37th year is set at 568 BCE):-
The Exile of Daniel and the Battle of Carchemish
1) The exile of Daniel – the 1st and 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar – the 3rd, 4th and 5th year of Jehoiakim.
Scriptures – Dan 1:1-4, Dan 2:1, Jer 25:1-3, Jer 36:1-29
2) Battle of Carchemish
(Jeremiah 46:1-2) . . .This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations: 2 For Egypt, concerning the military force of Phar′aoh Ne′cho the king of Egypt, who happened to be by the river Eu·phra′tes at Car′che·mish, whom Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Je·hoi′a·kim the son of Jo·si′ah, the king of Judah:
Let’s say Nebuchadnezzar’s years of rule are running from May-April. His first year must run from 603 BCE to 604 BCE.
Let’s say Jehoiakim is ruling from Sept-Aug. Jehoiakim’s 4th year is Nebuchadnezzar’s 1st year, therefore:-
May – 3rd year of Jehoiakim and 1st year of Nebuchadnezzar = 604 BCE
Sept – 4th year of Jehoiakim and 1st year of Nebuchadnezzar = 604 BCE
That means the battle of Carchemish followed by Daniel’s exile in 1st year of Nebuchadnezzar took place after Sept 604 BCE but before end of April 603 BCE when Nebuchadnezzar’s 1st year turns into his 2nd.
Jehoiachin’s Exile
1) The exile of Jehoiachin – the 8th year of Nebuchadnezzar – 1st year of Zedekiah
Scriptures - 2 Kings 24:6-12, 17, 2 Chronicles 36:9-10
Jehoiachin goes into exile at the turn of the year. Let’s say the turn of the year is Nisan (the 1st month). The Nisan of Nebuchadnezzar’s 8th year is 596 BCE. This would also mark the start of Zedekiah’s reign.
Zedekiah’s reign and the exile of Jehoiachin start at almost, if not exactly, the same time. But Zedekiah’s reign ends in his 11th year, whereas Jehoiachin’s exile continues well beyond the 11th year.
The Fall of Jerusalem
1) The fall of Jerusalem, the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, the 11th year of Zedekiah, the 11th year of Jehoiachin’s exile.
Scriptures – 2 Ki 24:18, 2 Ki 25:8-11, Jer 52:12-14
As already stated:-
If Tammuz (the 4th month) of 586 BCE is the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, then the Tammuz of the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar must be 586 BCE.
Fourteen Years After the Fall of Jerusalem
1) 14 years after the fall of Jerusalem, 25th year of Jehoiakim’s exile, 32nd year of Nebuchadnezzar (deduced from 25th year of Jehoiachin’s exile
(Ezekiel 40:1) 40 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, in the start of the year, on the tenth [day] of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city had been struck down, on this very same day the hand of Jehovah proved to be upon me, so that he brought me to that place.
Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, this was the 11th year of Jehoiachin’s exile and the 11 year of Zedekiah’s rule, therefore the 25th year of the exile of Jehoiachin would run from April – March, 572 BCE to 571 BCE. As Ezekiel 40:1 refers to the start of the year on the 10th day, the year would be 572 BCE, that is the 32nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.
Seventh Year of Nebuchadnezzar (9th to 10th year of Jehoiakim’s reign)
May 598 BCE to April 597 BCE
Jer 52:28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·rez′zar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews.
Eighteenth Year of Nebuchadnezzar (10th year Zedekiah)
May 587 BCE to Arpil 586 BCE
Jer 52:29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
Twenty Third Year of Nebuchadnezzar (15th year of Jehoiachin’s exile)
May 582 BCE to April 581 BCE
Jer 52:30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez′zar, Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls
37th year of Jehoiachin’s Exile
March (the 12th month is Adar) 559 BCE
(2 Kings 25:27-30) . . .And it came about in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Je·hoi′a·chin the king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, that E′vil-mer′o·dach the king of Babylon, in the year of his becoming king, raised up the head of Je·hoi′a·chin the king of Judah out of the house of detention; 28 and he began to speak good things with him, and then put his throne higher than the thrones of the kings that were with him in Babylon. 29 And he took off his prison garments; and he ate bread constantly before him all the days of his life. 30 As for his allowance, an allowance was constantly given him from the king, daily as due, all the days of his life.
Comment by Johnsc11 on 2017-01-16 10:05:05
Russel and even Rutherford originally taught the the Valley of the Dry bones was a prophesy relating to natural Israel. We still believe this today. Natural Israel has been restored as a nation as the Bible predicts on so many passages. ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-16 11:35:00
Hi Johnsc11,
By "we still believe this today", do you mean Jehovah's Witnesses, or International Bible Students?
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-16 11:45:32
Hi Meliti. We had to listen to a talk yesterday which told us how much happier we all are because of knowing the truth. I am very happy, because of this site, to have come to know many truths. I am happy that I know certain truths because of JWs. The conflict means real happiness is much harder to find. But I no longer kid myself that simply being one of Jehovah's Witnesses means I am happy, any more than I feel I am in paradise, simply because someone calls what we have a "Spiritual Paradise".
Thanks though for maintaining this site Meliti. The secrecy allows us all to know there are others in the same boat.
Comment by lazarus on 2017-01-16 13:58:52
Thanks Meleti, for your review. It's amazing how one word can change the meaning of an idea, thought and teaching.
Note para 6 , they use the word suggest instead they should of used as a suggestion, taught or teached.
Under sub heading "IS THERE A MODERN-DAY PARALLEL?" Note how the original teaching is expressed. It says "for many years, this journal "suggested" that God’s modern-day servants entered into Babylonian captivity in 1918 and that they were released from Babylon in 1919.
So was it a"suggestion" that it was Taught a teaching.
Ok so to suggest means, put forward for consideration.
The Wt March 1, 2001
Para 17 "Was Babylon the Great ever forced to acknowledge Jehovah’s powerful works? Yes. During the first world war, Jehovah’s anointed servants preached under tribulation. In 1918 they went into spiritual captivity when leading officers of the Watch Tower Society were imprisoned.The organized preaching work virtually ceased. Then, in 1919, Jehovah restored them and reinvigorated them with his spirit, whereupon they set out to fulfill the commission to preach the good news in all the inhabited earth. "
You can make up your own mind on that sentence, it's only a word.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-16 15:16:10
Good catch. If the original teaching was just a 'suggestion', then I get this one is as well. Maybe we should bring that up as a comment at the meeting. :)
Reply by lazarus on 2017-01-16 15:52:32
haha, well it's crossed my mind to text the Wt conductor.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-17 09:46:01
Lazarus, I've used your "find" in the article's second version (see above). Thanks again.
Reply by lazarus on 2017-01-17 13:21:50
That's Excellent!
Reply by mailman on 2017-01-21 10:42:00
Suggestion??? Really??? Sorry dear brothers but this makes our blood boil.
Perhaps we have to ask the elders, especially the WT conductor, if the paragraph or statement is just a suggestion or a doctrine/teaching that needs to be followed - w/o any doubt or question.
What is the criteria then to look if the printed thought is just a suggestion and not a doctrine? :)
Comment by anonymous on 2017-01-16 17:14:47
The book which started the rot was "The Three Worlds" written by Nelson Barbour, but co-published with Charles Taze Russell in 1877. Here it is.
https://archive.org/details/TheThreeWorlds
Read p.189 and there are several wrong conclusions reached. Jerusalem was destroyed in 606 BCE, the seventy years were captivity of Jews in Babylon (it was actually the period of Babylonian domination of all nations ending in 539 BCE as per Jere 25:11,12), a 40 year harvest period from 1874 to 1914 with 1874 being when Christ returned and 1914 being the end of the time of trouble. And all this being attributed to Bro.Miller. Wait a minute....Surely not William Miller the false prophet? You betcha. And on p.189 is a retelling of William Millers dream, the same story which is found in The Finished Mystery. The Jehovahs Witness religion has Millerite roots. No doubt about it. Read it for yourself. And try not to weep at all those wasted hours preaching the end of the world. All religion is a snare and a racket, particularly American ones started in the late 19th century. Sucking peoples time and money until all that's left is a depressed shell of a person.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-17 10:18:12
Anonymous. Thanks for a fantastic bit of research. Really appreciated.
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-17 15:09:23
Anytime ? Nelson Barbour was a former Millerite and obviously suffered extreme cognitive dissonance when Millers prophecy about 1844 failed. He spent the next 30 years doing holy arithmetic trying to work out what went wrong. To find out how 1843/1844 became 1873/1874 read Jonas Wendells "Present Truth or Meat In Due Season". It's not too long and theres a chart which explains the 30 year difference.
https://archive.org/details/PresentTruthByJonasWendell
Also read "Thy Kingdom Come" by CT Russell p.84-90 and you will see what I mean. This really connected the dots for me.
https://archive.org/details/ThyKingdomComeByCharlesTazeRussell
Comment by Rufus on 2017-01-17 11:45:09
Since the Millerite Adventist movement, Russell and the Watchtower have counted back 70 years from the “absolute” ancient date of 539 BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. But they have mis-understood Jer. 25:11 as being a prophecy about an empty City of Jerusalem, and not what it plainly says: that “these nations” will serve the King of Babylon for 70 years.
Daniel gets it right. His first year of exile came in Nebuchadnezzar's first year of world domination, and continued through to the end of Babylonian world power some 70 years later.
Nebuchadnezzar's troops came against Jerusalem three times. The first took Daniel, King Jehoiakim, priests and temple worship utensils to Babylon, leaving a puppet ruler behind to pay tribute to Babylon. 2 Chron 36:5-7.
His rebellion forced a second entry “at the return of the year”, sacking 18 year old Jehoiachin and devastating the governmental structure of a “king” in the line of David, leaving Uncle Zedekiah as a puppet. This time Ezekiel was taken, leaving Jeremiah behind. From Babylon, Ezekiel continues his reportage of events, as an "eye witness" by spirit. Ez. 1: 1-5.
What did Jehovah do? 2 Chron 36:15-16 explains: “And Jehovah the God of their forefathers kept sending against them by means of his messengers, sending again and again, because he felt compassion for his people and for his dwelling. 16 But they were continually making jest at the messengers of the [true] God and despising his words and mocking at his prophets, until the rage of Jehovah came up against his people, until there was no healing.”
Finally, after 20 years, Jehovah himself brought Nebuchadnezzar's armies back to finish off the city and to scatter its remaining peoples, with Jeremiah to Egypt. 2 Chron 36: 17-23. The King of Babylon kept these nations under his domination for 50 more years.
By not including these first 20 years in the fulfillment of Jeremiah 25, Watchtower arrives at an incorrect chronology. This would not be so critical, except that it undermines the 1914 teaching and the need to suddenly create a faithful and discrete slave by self-appointment in 1919. The first notice of this error was delivered to Russell in 1916, but he died before changing his published views.
Rutherford quickly found the need to discredit his view and to point forward to the 1925 resurrection of the dead. When that failed, he then began to look backwards to the invisible Kingdom Rulership. When that failed, he then began mis-directing attention to Jewish prophecies of restoration. Jehovah's Witnesses look to John 17:3 as though taking in knowledge of Jehovah leads to everlasting life. But Jesus prayed in verse 5, "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." This Glory JWs fail to recognize or honor, instead keeping vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty as the Bible theme, and not salvation by means of Jesus ransom.Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2017-01-18 08:33:03
Russell certainly did a lot of counting, no? From "Thy Kingdom Come - Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures" we note:
"the time when God's sanctuary would be cleansed of the defiling errors and principles of Papacy.... We have noted the fulfillment of the 1,260 days, or the time, times, and half a time of Papacy's power to persecute, and the beginning, in 1799, of the Time of the End. We have seen how 1,290 days marked the beginning of an understanding of the mysteries of prophecy in the year 1829, culminating in the great movement of 1844 known as the Second-Advent movement when ... the wise Virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom, thirty years prior to his actual coming .... We have remarked, with special delight, the 1,335 days, pointing ... to 1874 as the exact date of our Lord's return."
Eighteen forty-six . . . 1799 . 1829 . . . 1844 . . . 1874; 1,260 days …1,290 days . . . 1,335 days . . . No wonder the Witnesses won't allow "outsiders" access to the Studies in the Scriptures (which are very hard indeed to come by). Russell even worked Napolean Bonaparte into his various calculations.
Comment by Stormie on 2017-01-18 08:05:57
This part in paragraph 14 is what grabbed my attention. "Many who thirsted for Bible truth fled to countries where the influence of the church was less pervasive. They wanted to read and study and converse with one another without being told what to think.”
As a Bible Study I always had questions about beliefs. It probably did not help that I came at it from a "research first" point of view which led me to examine the religion from the outside in within hours of starting the study. So I started with some doubts. Reading the Bible Teach book really didn't do much for me, but reading the Bible changed my entire life! Especially reading the book of Ecclesiastes. That one spoke to me like nothing else had, and when I tried to start a discussion regarding it with my Bible Study Conductress I was told we would cover that book in the midweek meeting later in the year and I can look at it then. Might as well tossed a bucket of cold water on me really. That's what made me really see the lack of depth in the Study. I tried to start some other discussions regarding doctrines, beliefs and the Bible but was always shut down. Finally walked away after my Study was turned into a two hour "discussion" with the conductress and an elder following some remarks I made after the convention.
For me it was incredibly disappointing to learn that although many claim to study the Bible they cannot and will not hold a discussion on its truths without permission or an additional aid.Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2017-01-18 08:12:20
Well-stated, Stormie, thanks for sharing your story.
"without being told what to think"
The irony of some of the organization's statements never fails to absolutely amaze me. What gets me is that others (at least most) do not see it.
Reply by Enoch on 2017-01-18 18:13:10
Howdy Stormie. I think the big reason alot of Witnesses steer away from Ecclesiastes is because of it's lateral, out of the box thinking. Some translations will refer to Solomon as a Philosopher Ecc 1:1 ""These are the words of the Philosopher, David's son, who was king in Jerusalem."" JWs are taught not only to keep everything in their speech in line with official WT policy but also told that it's wrong to even have a thought that does so!!
Many JW's are among some of the most linear, one dimensional thinkers you'll ever meet. They are part of a system that tells them how they must think. Even if they start thinking out of the box about the New World they are quickly shut down with counsel for being "speculative". You could say that Ecclesiastes is anathema to rank and file JW thinking.
I've been to dinner at a special pioneer couples house recently and it was like I was invited to become a living part of one of those canned, contrived demonstrations you see at a convention where every sentence is so over rehearsed you feel like you are listening to an extreme version of Ned and Maud Flanders. (RIP Maud :-) )
The other reason Ecclesiastes doesn't get much of a rap is that Solomon is basically saying "Look folks. You live, you die. Don't try and get everything right because you won't. For the short time your'e here make sure to enjoy your life. Enjoy your wife. Enjoy your work. Enjoy your food. Enjoy your booze. Just do so in a way that is not too over the top and that doesn't bring dishonour to God. That's all kids. Gotta go and walk the dog and feed the wifes. Or was it walk the wifes and feed the dog? I've got so many , I lose track. " :-)
I "discovered" Ecclesiastes at the age of 23. I was so enamoured with it I cut the whole book out of the Good News Bible and folded into a wad that I carried around in my pocket. Ecclesiastes told me that it was Ok to have "deep" thoughts and that I wasn't a "freak" because I asked questions about the meaning of existence outside of WT language. Jehovah gave Ecclesiastes for the tortured souls who like to peel back the veneer of both life and themselves and look a bit deeper than the surface level.
I highly recommend Ecclesiastes to all JW's as a guidebook to not only peer a little deeper into the meaning of our world and existence, but also to lighten up!! Ecclesiastes will make you both cry and smile....isn't that what is to be human??Reply by Candace on 2017-01-22 03:49:00
I love this!! Thanks Enoch for sharing. I am reading Ecclesiastes again and am hooked, so as to speak..reading slowly, to spot verses that need my lateral thinking hat on to understand it better. Actually I really wish there is a commentary book on Ecclesiastes just like with the Revelation, Isaiah, and Daniel books. (not that you can find these in the Jw library anymore which is annoying)
Reply by Enoch on 2017-01-23 01:35:20
Howdy Candace. Yes I'm not surprised that you would like Ecclesiastes. The fact that as a young person your'e here hamming at up with a bunch of people that are mostly 30 and over shows that you like to use the pink stuff between your ears. :-)
The problem you'll have in the Org is that not everyone will see your good qualities as something to celebrate but rather to put down.
The fact that you are taking on University and full time service at the same time shows an incredible amount of self initiative and resourcefulness and yet for some reason two Elders in your congregation sought to tear you down rather then build you up.
You'll probably come to realize if you havn't already that you see the world a bit differently to the average JW. People become threatened by what they don't understand particularly like in your case , where you respectfully held your ground during 3 Shepherding visits.
As JWs we are in a very small minority in the population. In the West, we are about 1 in 300. But what happens if like yourself, you feel different to the mainstream JW.ORG view? Then you become what is known as a "minority within a minority". From a Psycho/social point of view being in a minority group can be extremely stressful. But if then you become marginalized by the minority...you become 1/100 amongst the 1/300 or in other words 1 in 30,000 which can be a very isolated feeling for even the strongest of minds.
Hopefully you'll be able to embrace your uniqueness and not let people strip you of your potential. It's great to see you asking questions and reasoning things through and I think you'll find that most brothers and sisters here see your good qualities and want you to thrive and do well!!! :-) 1 Samuel 16: 6-13
Reply by Stormie on 2017-01-22 18:53:16
Thanks Enoch.
I gave up on Bible Study for a lot of the wrong reasons, but since then I have come to realize I would have in the end regardless. I don't do well at accepting things at face value so I tend to always do my homework. This is in part due to the fact that I am an adult with Asperger's. I struggle with understanding people and their motives and have always had a great deal of difficulty relating. Basically I think differently about everything! LOL so I would have never been able to just go along with the crowd. This has been a cause of frustration of late as I have lost one of the few friends I had since he is a Witness and was very upset that I quit study. He accused me of doing "one sided research" because I "accept carbon dating without proof" but not certain doctrines. Which was untrue as I have examined carbon dating in the past... He literally just kept feeding me the same lines over and over about my problem with pride. But he at least understood my need/desire to research. The elders at the local congregation did not and discouraged it to a degree. Which made me suspicious and more inclined to do it... my entire opinion is simply: If it's the truth it will hold up under examination.
Ecclesiastes convinced me of a lot of things, so I continue to research on my own. My trouble is simply that it is just as hard for me to to relate to the idea of God as it is for me to relate to another person. Little harder since I can at least process the other person through physical senses as well.Reply by Enoch on 2017-01-23 01:16:27
Howdy Stormie. I have a good friend who has Aspergers and he does alot of bible research that is incredibly detailed and complex. I think the ability to spend long periods of time alone without being lonely makes Aspergers persons very amenable to research and is why many go on to be PHDs if they can manage their condition.
The Org can be a hard place for people who walk to the beat of their own drum. People with Bi Polar, Apergers or simply just intense Arty types find the one dimensional speed of the Org hard to relate to.
Aspergers people need love and friendship as much as the next person. Just because they see the world through a different lens doesn't mean they are wrong....just different.
All through my life I've always had friends in the truth who weren't the mainstream. I love it when people are brave enough to be themselves despite everyone else around them parroting the party line. So many witnesses are threatened by people that are different but I think it all adds colour.
Keep up your study and don't let the turkeys bring you down!! :-)Reply by Stormie on 2017-01-23 07:54:32
I read and study on my own now. I don't have any intention of not doing so, I just don't have people I can discuss it all with. Can definitely see how the Org would be a hard place for someone like me, especially since my main hobby is fantasy/sci-fi writing. I don't mind being different, been doing it for over forty years now; I simply had too many doubts to stay.
One of the things I have always been able to do really easily is spot patterns, or information that just repeats over and over. Having been reading Watchtowers for over a year now I can see the repetitiveness to them. The same core ideas being reworded and reiterated over and over. To me it appeared to be programming. Constant reinforcement of the same things over and over and over. It frightened me in all honesty. Luckily I found this site and another forum that allows me to read differing viewpoints and continue learning. Much appreciation for all the work Meleti and other put in to these articles! :D
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-18 11:51:07
For those who have not yet read the book "Three Worlds" mentioned by Anonymous, do note that (on page 189) 606 BCE was selected, for the start of the 2520 years/7 times because that was the end of the line of David, which starts the 70 year period of captivity. Does anyone know when WTBS changed the start date to that of the fall of Jerusalem ? Answers on this site with any references will be appreciate.
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-18 17:12:50
Hi Leonardo,
This idea of the Gentile Times has been bandied about for a while, starting with a book called "The Even Tides" by John Aquila Brown in 1823. This is mentioned in the "Jehovahs Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom" book. It also mentions how the theory changed I think. Just do a word search in WT Library - for example "miller" or "three worlds". At some point the scripture used was changed to Luke 21:24, which doesn't make sense anyway, as Jesus said Jerusalem will be trampled on (future) not has been trampled on (past). Carl Olof Jonsson talks about all of this in his excellent treatise "The Gentile Times Reconsidered", where he goes right into the history of it all.
You can read about it here
https://ad1914.com/2014/01/01/gentile-times-reconsidered/
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-18 22:57:33
Found it Leonardo. Chapter 10 page 134 of the Proclaimers Book under the heading "End of the Gentile Times". As Carl Olof Jonsson rightly points out though, John Aquila Brown did not connect the seven times with Luke 21:24 as they state, so this is incorrect. I have read a portion of "The Even Tides" and can verify this. Here is a link
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1823_Even-Tide_Gentile_Times.pdf
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-19 03:39:16
Hi Anonymous. That reference is of help, but unless I am missing something I cannot see where JWs first pick on 607 as the fall of Jerusalem. The early 1914 figures are all based on the end of the Davidic rule, which seems to follow the time when many were taken into captivity in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim (see Daniel 1:1) . Matthew Henry's commentary suggests that most commentators agree that this is the start of the 70 years, so I have nothing to tell me that any of those earlier forecasts worked on anything different. Therefore at some point we claimed Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE. But when did we first suggest this ? Having entered all this, sorry I have not linked it to your reply.
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-19 12:24:48
At least as early as 1922, although this was based on the seven times of Leviticus 26, not Luke 21:24.
https://archive.org/details/1922WatchtowerArticlesOnChronology
I would really suggest reading "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" if you have not done so. Your question is answered in there
https://ad1914.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/the-gentile-times-reconsidered.pdf
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-19 12:27:48
I mean, technically it was 606 back then, until it was "providentially" changed to 607 because Russell and Barbour had mistakenly counted the zero year
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-19 15:56:59
Hi Anonymous. I really appreciate your help. I have read most of the Gentile Times, thank you. In 1877 Russell calculated 1914 based on the end of the Davidic line, and somewhere after that the start date was attached to the destruction of Jerusalem instead. I am aware that in 1877, 606 BCE was picked and that it was changed later to 607. That is not the question. Neither am I asking how long the seven times were or whether they were the appointed times of the nations. I just want to know when we first put into print that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE. Hope that is clear and appeal to anyone who can answer the question. Thanks a lot to all you fellow seekers of truth.
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-19 18:23:13
Hi Leonardo,
Barbour and Russell always believed that the 70 years "captivity" started with the destruction of Jerusalem and the removal of Zedekiah from the throne in 606. This was first put into print in 1875 in Barbours magazine and later in 1877 in "The Three Worlds". Read page 75. Also, here is a quote from "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" page 40.
"E. B. Elliott was most probably the first expositor to reckon the “times of the Gentiles” from 606 B.C.E. to 1914 CE. It should be noted, however, that in his chronology the starting-point, 606 B.C.E, was the accession-year of Nebuchadnezzar, while in the chronology of Barbour and Russell this was Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year. Their chronologies, therefore, were conflicting, although the dates accidentally happened to be the same."
What later changed in the understanding was not whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 606/607, as this was always the theory, but the linking of Luke 21:24 with the seven times in Daniel, instead of using Leviticus 26. When that happened, I don't know. I hope this clears it up for you.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-20 12:15:21
Hi Anonymous, again. You have been most helpful. I will go away for now and have a good read of all of this. Thanks once again.
Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2017-01-22 02:20:46
Zec 1:12 "So the angel of Jehovah said: 'O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?'”
Check it out. Zechariah wasn't completed for almost 20 years after Daniel. Daniel's notation of 70 years relates to the ruling period given by Jehovah to Nebuchadnezzar. Since Israel kept rebelling against willingly turning themselves into captivity to Babylon, their release and payment of Sabbaths were delayed by 20 years.
SW1Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-22 03:28:55
Unfortunately this is incorrect. The seventy years of the nations serving Babylon, or being under Babylonian domination, finished in 539 BCE. This is according to Jeremiahs prophecy recorded at Jere 25:11,12. After the seventy years were completed, the king of Babylon was called to account.
“This whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. It shall come to pass when seventy years are finished that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, says the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.”
Jeremiah 25:11-12 MEV
http://bible.com/1171/jer.25.11-12.mev
So if 539 BCE was the end of the seventy years, then the start was 609 BCE. This is in full agreement with history as Babylon was dominant for exactly seventy years. It was also how Daniel knew that the time for the Jews release was imminent (Dan 9:1,2) Within that seventy year time period, the nations all around were made subject to Babylon and Jerusalem was made a desolate place, just as prophesied. Also, when that 70 period ended, another period started which was 7 times as long, the great 490 year prophecy. This should be counted from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, issued by Cyrus, God's anointed as spoken of in Isaiah chapters 44 and 45.
Comment by Candace on 2017-01-22 04:07:07
I am concerned that the connection is being made that JW org is part of Babylon the Great. Maybe a few months ago I would have closed this window immediately and described it as demonic attack. But now thanks to Meleti for helping me to open my eyes so I am not confused with doctrine that isn't bible based! Isn't the Hebrew word for Babylon mean 'confusion'? Well, JW doctrines are confusing. Is that a connection?
About the warning in Rev 18:4 to get out of her my people if you don't want to share in her sins. I just wish that such an important command came with a timeline on WHEN to take action. Because for some of us its not as easy as moving out of home or changing jobs for example. Lost of family and friends are involved. And if in full time service every day of the week which is what I still do, the change being asked of me is so great I am not sure if I can deal with it. Obviously I have faith that Jehovah will guide me with his spirit. But I am anxious about hurting and stumbling others and worse of all, harming their faith because of my decisions since they won't understand why I am doing this all of a sudden.
P.s This study gave me a headache especially when I compared the comments here with the comments I heard at the meeting and next week doesn't look like its any better. Why do we need to separate this into TWO studies anyway? Each 'study' only has 15 paragraphs. I remember a few years ago the study articles were like 22 paragraphs and had a LOT more scriptures and material for me to research. Ugh..Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-22 05:38:19
The Millerites also felt a need to "get out of Babylon". So its not surprising JW's share the same views. I would highly recommend reading a couple of these lectures, particularly Susan Palmers on unravelling Adventist Prophecy. She makes this very point.
http://aurora.edu/academics/library/jenks-collection/jenks-writings/index.html#axzz4WU88YqiA
It wouldn't surprise me if Revelation was a heretical book. The Jesus of the Gospels who said his load was light seems different to the Jesus of Revelation, who is going to spit you out of his mouth because your works aren't good enough. What happened to grace? If certain passages of the Bible have been declared spurious, why not books too? The churches of Christendom decided the canon. Were they inspired to include the right books? Take Revelation out of the picture, and you realise how much of what we did as JW's depended on it.Reply by Vox Ratio on 2017-01-22 07:41:25
Hi anonymous,
Thank you for sharing your historical research with us. It is most helpful.
Concerning your concluding remarks: Though Jesus was a man of deep feeling, he nevertheless understood the need for God's wrath to come against sin. The man that spoke about offering a light load, who told of the means of restoration for the prodigal, and who taught compassion for our enemies, is the same man that spoke about the destruction of little children, who told of the annihilation of the unrepentant, and who taught eternal damnation for unforgiveable acts (Mat. 12:31f; Lu. 13:3, 19:44). It seems to me that the Jesus of the gospels is not that dissimilar to the Jesus of the apocalypse after all.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-22 10:41:33
I'd have to respectfully disagree. Jesus is the perfect reflection of God, the God of the OT that brought the fire from heaven down on the Sodomites with nary a warning.
These will be resurrected and given a chance, and the congregations that were 'spit out of the mouth of the Lord' will likewise, IMHO, be given a resurrection, but it will be along with the rest of the unrighteous. The 'spitting out' doesn't mean eternal damnation, but the loss of the exquisite privilege of being with Christ in the kingdom of the heavens.Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-22 15:17:19
Yes, this view that God is angry with us turns a lot of people off God and religion. Everybody sidestepped what I said before. The Apocalypse of John was debated for a long time as to its conclusion in the canon. Everybody can keep debating its meaning until the cows come home for all I care, and I'm sure they won't need my encouragement. Either its meant to be there or its not. Prove to me who wrote it, and then I can work out whether I should waste my time trying to decipher it. It means my eternal salvation to do so apparently. Otherwise I will do as Jesus said and not be anxious about tomorrow.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-23 09:30:17
Could not the same be said about any Bible Book. The discussion of why any book should be inspired is an old one and a valid one. Frankly, I haven't done enough research to speak authoritatively on the subject, but I'm definitely putting it in my To Do list.
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-23 16:28:13
Great ?Here's a starting point. The Canon of the New Testament was developed in response to a heretic called Marcion, who had developed his own canon, namely certain letters of Paul and a modified version of Luke. The churches have failed to tell people the Gospels are written anonymously, with the names being added much later. When someone says "Matthew wrote..." well, he probably didn't. The book of Jude quotes directly from the Book of Enoch, as if it has some authority. Should we also read this book? 2 Tim 3:16, is it "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial?" or only "All scripture inspired of God is beneficial"? At the end of the day the early Christians just had oral stories and word of mouth about Jesus, and believed on this basis. When the Beroeans studied the scriptures to see if these things were so, that would have been the Hebrew Scriptures.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-22 08:22:09
Hi Candace,
I agree. It would be nice to have a clear sign to tell us it's time to get out of Babylon. Perhaps there isn't one provided, because Jesus only wants his followers to recognize the signs. Perhaps the manner of the attack may start subtly with governments going after the wealth. The Org would see that as persecution, as would other churches. That would cause the "faithful" to rally to the cause of their particular faith, instead of taking the event as a sign that they should disavow any connection with the church and get out. I think of a fall of Jerusalem. There was a abortive attack in 66 C.E. which allowed the Christians time to get out, but the rest didn't see it for what it was.
Your point about not wanting to hurt the 'faith' of the brothers is interesting. However, when we go door-to-door, do we not do so with a view of undermining the faith of others in their religion? When we speak to a Catholic, we are diplomatic, but our concern is not that our teachings might undermine her faith in the Pope or the church itself. In fact, that's what we want. Is a Catholic's faith in the Pope of any less value than a Witness's faith in the Governing Body?
Reply by Enoch on 2017-01-22 18:31:21
Howdy Candace. In regards to the length of the WT remember that the Society has to provide a study for people of all sorts of ages, IQ, literacy, culture and health.Someone like you who is actively involved in Academic pursuits can always step down a level in analysis but someone from a low level of education cannot be expected to step up. There are forums that are pro JW that are not sanctioned by the society where brothers analyse the WT a bit deeper. Perhaps you could also check one of those out as well to gain additional perspective?
In regards to getting out of Babylon I would advise to be as Jesus said "Innocent as a Dove, cautious as a serpent. ". There is no rush to make any decision and I don't believe that Jehovah expects you to do so. I'm not telling you to take the easy way out, only to make sure that you've given yourself sufficient time to analyse all perspectives and points of view.
Personally, I am still weighing up all forms of evidence before I arrive at any definitive conclusions. The older you get in life the more you will realize that things can't be so quickly grouped into black and white terms.
An experienced brother once told me that if you mix the colours Black and White you can end up with over 3000 different shades of grey. This Elder tried to view the brothers that way which I thought was a refreshing change from some of the other block headed Nazis I had ran into in the past.
While you are questioning your beliefs and the role of the Organization you can be assured that Jehovah will still continue to bless and support you in your endeavours. Jehovah tolerates a considerable amount of ambiguity in his flock and knows the ones who are genuinely trying to follow him in truth. You are never lost in the crowd so there is no great hurry to seperate from it until you are absolutely sure of your conviction.
Here are some examples that you may find supportive and encouraging in your situation.
The 7 Congregations in Rev Chapters 2 and 3. Read through these 2 chapters and ask yourself if you see Uniformity in believers or considerable variation in knowledge and morals?
Read Malachi 3: 14-18. How does this passage relate to you and your relationship with Jehovah as you continue your search. What confidence does it give you?
Read 1 KINGS 19: 14 -18. Can you relate to Elijah's feelings of isolation in V14? How does Jah comfort him in V 18?
Read Jeremiah Chapter 9: 1-6. Can you relate to Jeremiahs feelings in this passage. How many faithful people were in Jerusalem before the exile?
Candace, you sound like a very conscientious, Idealistic person which is great but remember like any other person your strength can also be your weakness. Idealism can move you to make a stand but if not bridled it can also lead to a rushed and hasty decision. This is not a flaw on your part. It's a normal part of being human. All of us are a mixed bag of different traits and Jehovah takes this into account.
Consider Jonah. He gets given a commission and bolts off to sea in the opposite direction. Then he shows remarkble bravery/Idealism by volunteering to be thrown into a raging sea. Then he finally preaches a message of doom to a dodgy bunch of sinners which again is very tenacious and brave. But when the people repent he sits on the hill feeling slighted that they weren't destroyed.(Pride/lack of empathy) I see alot of myself in Jonah. It reminds me of Solomon's words in ECC 7 :16 -18.....we're a mixed bag but through Grace Jehovah tolerates the vagaries in our nature.
It's great that your'e taking your worship seriously but remember to have some fun as well. Be patient with yourself and I'm sure Jehovah will bring your answers at the right time. Often Jehovah will allow things to run perhaps longer then we would like. It must of been hard for Joseph to experience not one but two great injustices before his path got clearer. He may have felt once he had his position in Potiphars House that Jehovah had undone the injustice done by his brothers but then it got worse and he was thrown into jail under accusation of rape and Adultery.
Hang in there Candace and I hope things become clearer for you soon. In the meantime be assured that your feelings of uncertainty and anxiety are valid and normal and that Jehovah permits things to happen for our refinement. Best Wishes.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-01-22 06:24:07
Hi Smoldering Wick, Anonymous, and others. JW facts( 607:1914 seven times) points out that 1914 was not stated to be Christs Return until 1930 in the Golden Age. If this is correct, it would be interesting to know how those in the earlier part of the "overlapping generations", as in the broadcast in 2015, knew the significance of the times in 1914.
Also I found a few interesting things on the 70 years. Zechariah 1:12 ties up to 70 years of desolation of the temple from 586/7 BCE to its being rebuilt about 515 BCE. Other commentaries relate the 70 year period as simply to the captivity until the Jews release, while many believe there are two overlapping periods of 70 years, this and the temple being desolate.
nother "overlapping" prophecy ! But maybe a little more sensible than the broadcast.
Sorry of this is a little rushed, but hope it gives something to think about.
Comment by Tadua on 2017-01-22 19:14:14
Hi did anyone else pick up on the bold lie about Jeremiah 29 in paragraph 3
3 What the prophets had foretold came to pass. Through Jeremiah, Jehovah advised the future exiles to accept their new situation and make the most of it. He said: “Build houses [in Babylon] and live in them. Plant gardens and eat their fruit. And seek the peace of the city to which I have exiled you, and pray in its behalf to Jehovah, for in its peace you will have peace.” (Jer. 29:5, 7)
Jeremiah was not speaking to future exiles. He was speaking to those already in exile and the letter was sent to Babylon to the exiles for them to read, in the 4th or 5th year of zedekiah.
I think the wt writer needs to go to specsavers or maybe get some higher education. It seems reading and understanding is getting a bit tough for some in the writing department.Reply by AndereStimme on 2017-01-23 14:27:44
Never mind higher education - remedial reading would be the place to start! I get the feeling that the writing department has been purged of all but the ultra faithful, and therefore has suffered significant brain drain.
Reply by Tadua on 2017-01-23 19:52:29
To the editor, could you please moderate my last comment by removing the last paragraph: from : I think the wt writer.
It's not come out the way I intended. Thanks
Comment by rudytokarz on 2017-01-22 22:49:46
This is the first time commenting for me but I had to flag what seems to be an obvious error in paragraph 3 and 4 in relation to Jer. 29. Paragraph 3 quotes verses 5 and 7 in telling the exiles to try and get along in Babylon and then paragraph 4 mentions that the "temple with it's alter had been destroyed. Read all of Jer. 29; this letter to the exiles took place BEFORE Jerusalem has destroyed. Did I miss something or is this really obvious?
Secondly, verse 10 says that it would be 70 years for those exiles that were ALREADY in Babylon so how could those years of desolation start later when Jerusalem was eventually destroyed?Reply by AndereStimme on 2017-01-23 14:24:56
Welcome Rudy, and good catch!
15You may say, “The Lord has raised up prophets for us in Babylon,” 16but this is what the Lord says about the king who sits on David’s throne and all the people who remain in this city, your fellow citizens who did not go with you into exile
As you pointed out, a careful reading of Jeremiah 29 shows that the exiles to whom Jeremiah wrote were, indeed, already exiles, and Jerusalem had not yet been destroyed.
Interestingly, most translations of verse 10 speak of 70 years for Babylon, which makes the question of when Jerusalem was destroyed moot. Of course, for JWs, whose status as chosen ones hinges on the date of the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, it's extremely important and worth all manner of twisting and massaging of the data to put it where they need it to be.
It's also interesting that the false prophets were apparently urging the exiles to not marry and have children because of their imminent liberation. Now, where have I heard that before?
Comment by rudytokarz on 2017-01-23 15:04:26
AndereStimme, What about Dan. 9:2? It sounds pretty specific about "desolation of Jerusalem" not Babylon. I know that there are many other verses that say "for Babylon" also but this is always used as a 'proof' verse for the start of the 70 years. Any thoughts?
Reply by anonymous on 2017-01-23 17:54:26
You may find this summary useful
https://ad1914.com/biblical-evidence-against-watchtower-society-chronology/
To put it simply, Jerusalem was desolated throughout the course of 70 years. There were 3 exiles. Daniel was taken in the first exile, Ezekiel was taken in the second exile with Jehoiachin, and there was a third and final exile in 587. All this fulfilled the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel figured this out when Babylon was overthrown. Babylon had been dominant 70 years. He would have done the math, as he had been captive about 67 years himself. The Watchtower Society claims Daniel was taken in the second exile with Jehoachin, not the 3rd year of Jehoiakim, as expressly stated in the Bible. This is incorrect
Reply by Tadua on 2017-01-23 19:44:28
Rudytokarz
If you add back 70 years to 539bce you get to 609bce.
According to secular history Babylon became the world power in that year. Judah came under Babylonian sphere of influence then and Nebuchadnezzar enforced it 3 years later, by besieging Jerusalem according to Daniel 1:1. This was when Daniel was taken to Babylon as an exile. Jerusalem was devastated at least 3 times. Then, also 8 years later with Jehoiachin and a further 11 years later after zedekiah was killed. If you look at the number of exiles taken each time, it went down each time as there were less people to take. See Jeremiah 52:28-30. The largest no of exiles taken by far, was with jehoiachin 11 years (28) before Jerusalem was finally destroyed.(29), and those who fled to Egypt.
Hence there were at least 3 desolations agreeing with Daniel 9. Finally the scripture says the desolations would end there with Babylons fall not 2 years later on the return of a few exiles. The majority did not return to Judah and Jerusalem until 20 years later in the reign of Darius the Great when the temple finally got rebuilt and worship at the temple restored.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2017-01-24 12:35:06
Hi Rudy,
Well, it's been a while since I looked into this, but according to Carl O. Jonsson:
What Daniel discovered by reading Jeremiah’s letter, then, was not that Jerusalem’s desolation would last for seventy years (for this is nowhere stated in Jeremiah), but that the desolations of Jerusalem would not cease until the seventy years “for Babylon” had ceased. The focus of the “seventy years” was on Babylon, and her period of dominance, rather than on Jerusalem. – The Gentile Times Reconsidered, p. 220.
You'll notice, if you compare various translations, that Daniel 9:2 is a bit ambiguous. Do the 'desolations of Jerusalem' last 70 years, or do they simply end when the 70 years for Babylon are up?
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. – Dan 9:2 ESV
Comment by James on 2017-01-23 15:11:45
Thanks for all the comments.
Someone please help me out,this captivity issue is another type and anti-type? Thought we've done away with anti-type not expressly stated in the Bible. Where in the scriptures do we find indications of anti-type for Jewish captivity? Jesus never said his followers would be captive to false religion,the apostles did not, or am i wrong?
Granted, Jesus said there would be apostates, the apostles said it too. But Jesus parable of the wheat and weed did not say the weed will outgrow the wheat or hold the wheat captive,He said "let both GROW TOGETHER until the harvest", was this an indication of captivity?
Jesus said he would be with his followers all the days until the conclusion.... To me this teaching or suggestion( old or new version) of captivity of Jesus body,bride ( the congregation),dishonors Christ.
How come the Jews who were out and out rebellious despite series of warnings from prophets went to captivity for only 70 years, and Christians who unlike the Jews were obedient (though some turned apostates)will be in captivity for over 1500 years (313 CE to 1900 CE)? Is this not ridiculous?
Someone please correct me.
Since this doctrine is a "suggestion", henceforth, if any Elder reminds me of an instruction not based on the Bible but on our tradition, I will simply let them know that GB teachings not expressly based on the Bible are "suggestions"
Love you all