Armageddon is now past, and by the grace of God you've survived into Earth's new paradise. But as new scrolls are opened and a clearer picture emerges of life in the New World, you learn, either by a direct judgment or a slow realization, that you have not yet been declared righteous so as to inherit everlasting life. You are astonished to learn that you were found to be unworthy of this gift of undeserved kindness as you had expected. Instead, your lot and judgment is to work toward “coming to life at the end of the 1000 years.” (Rev 20:5)
In this circumstance, you find yourself on equal or nearly equal footing with the unrighteous, such as those who lived before Jesus and never came to know his promise of salvation by being declared righteous by undeserved kindness. You find yourself as just one of many peoples who together now have the opportunity to know and exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but over the next thousand years. Granted, you might be ahead of others in faith and understanding, but you must wait the same amount of time until the end of the 1000 years to receive “eternal life.”
As you go about your daily work of building a New World Society, you become aware that the role of priests and princes is being carried out by a class of Christians that did receive the reward, those of the first resurrection.
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)
You are questioned as to why it was that you thought you were a member of a “great crowd of other sheep” that were excluded from the covenant for a kingdom. You had a publisher's record card in your congregation file with a check box for O.S., “other sheep.” You ask why you are no better off in standing than those who died before the ransom sacrifice, or unbelieving sons of Abraham—both Jews and Arabs—or people from the pagan nations?
These Kingdom princes direct you to examine John chapter 10 where Jesus says in verse 16: “And I have other sheep, which are not of the fold.” And you reply to them, "There I am.”
But these princes point out the second half, “...those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again.” (John 10:16, 17)
You are helped to realize that you did not become part of the “one flock, once shepherd” who received the free gift of everlasting life, because you rejected your membership in the "covenant for a kingdom." When Jesus spoke those words, he was speaking to Jews while he was a Jew and was given the assignment to go only to the lost sheep of Israel. After his death, those “other sheep,” non-Jews or Gentiles, did become "one flock" under "one shepherd" as part of the anointed Christian Congregation. They, and all other Christians who partook of the emblems. Those who became part of the International Bible Students Association (IBSA), as well as those who became known as “Jehovah's Witnesses” in 1931, continued to partake; but the majority of witnesses stopped partaking in 1935. What had changed? What sudden obstacle to the "covenant for a Kingdom" sprung up in 1926?
With the failure of World War I to end in Armageddon, Rutherford increasingly put emphasis on 1925, beginning door-to-door preaching with the new Golden Age magazine in 1919. Fervor for the New Order reached a high point where 90,000 were partaking of the memorial emblems in 1925, with an expectation of immediate passage through the great tribulation. This was a growth rate that would soon exceed 144,000, a literal limit in Rutherford's view. By this date, Fred W Franz had become Rutherford's research and doctrinal aide. With the failure of all the predictions surrounding the 1925 expectation, a disheartened atmosphere developed. Rutherford's followers were more skeptical. These were called a class lacking true belief in their anointing, and through the type/antitype analysis that Franz favored, they came to be called the Jonadab class, after the model of King Jehu and his associate Jonadab, a Kenite and non-Israelite .
The Jonadabs did not qualify for baptism or for even attending the memorial until after 1934. By that time, the pathway to Kingdom covenant was closed off. A new fork in the road to the kingdom had been set in place that would lead to out-right rejection of Jesus simple command to accept undeserved kindness belonging to his brothers, the anointed. Even though the word Christian implies anointing by spirit (Christ = the anointed one), these skeptics were set aside as observers, not participants in the new covenant.
“But they said: “We will not drink wine, because Je·hona·dab the son of Rechab, our forefather, gave us this command, ‘Neither you nor your sons must ever drink wine.” (Jeremiah 35:6)
By mid-1934, the doctrine was laid down that this class could present themselves for water baptism as friends of God, but they did not receive a spirit of inheritance as sons of God. They would stand apart from a closed class of 144,000 anointed, ignoring the Bible view of the “great crowd” as declared righteous to live in the tabernacle of God.
You protest, saying, “But I was part of the 'great crowd.'”
Again your reading of scripture is adjusted by princes, because they point out that the great crowd was not formed as a class until after they came out of the great tribulation ( Rev 7:14), and then they found themselves declared righteous and were seated in the temple before the throne of God.” The “great crowd” is seen, not in the temple courtyards, but in its inner-most chamber, “the divine habitation.”
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence." (Re 7:15 ESV)
“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:21-26)
The free gift of being declared righteous and joining the great crowd inside God's tabernacle is offered to all mankind by the preaching of the Good News of salvation by Christ's ransom. It is undeserved kindness or grace for the very reason that we are unworthy. Nothing on their part, aside from faith in the merit of Christ's sacrifice in our behalf, is required. Yes, sinners are unworthy, but they are made worthy not by works, but by the grace of God. That is the point of propitiation. Undeserved kindness is by its nature not applied to worthy ones, but the un-worthy.
Therefore, if we explain that we did not partake of the emblems of the covenant because we considered ourselves to be unworthy, then we show that we have rejected what was offered, specifically, the free gift of God. This results in a great irony, for we are essentially telling Jehovah that "I am unworthy to be counted as unworthy."
No measure of service activity or faithfulness to an organization makes a difference to our outcome. If we reject the kingdom covenant and membership in its spirit-anointed class—something never done before 1935—then we do not apply the value of the ransom sacrifice to ourselves.
Partaking of the emblems is more than observing a command to “take and eat” or “take and drink.” It is a communion with the Lord, and Paul speaks of it being done on the Lord's day, not the Passover.
As a summary of reasons as to who is worthy to partake, we have considered the following points in Scripture:
- The “other sheep” of John 10:16 are Christian gentiles who joined with Christian Israelites to make up "one flock" under one shepherd by the ransom sacrifice and the pouring out of holy spirit (anointing) on the people of the nations. They are worthy as "one flock" to be in the new covenant and partake.
- The post-Armageddon "great crowd" of Rev 7:14 are declared righteous by accepting undeserved kindness or grace through their belief in the sin-atoning value of Christ's blood and sacrificed body. They were found worthy to be declared righteous because in faith they followed the commands to "take eat" and "take drink."
- The “great crowd” are placed in the center area of the temple, not in its courtyards. God spreads his tent out over them, and they dwell in his place of habitation. Thus under Kingdom Rulership they will act as administrators and princes, as the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to cover the extents of the earth.
- This group, which receives everlasting life, is worthy, not in their own right, but by their faith in the new covenant.
- By their partaking of the emblems, they confirm their communion with Jesus as brothers and as spirit-anointed “sons of God.”
“To that very end we always pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling and with his power perform completely all the good that he pleases and every work of faith. 12 This is so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in union with him, according to the undeserved kindness of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:11, 12)
The substance of the 2017 Memorial talk, like the invitation campaign that precedes it, is focused on causing one to believe an "earthly hope" is offered as the way to Paradise.
The scriptures lay out that Christians serve with Christ in his Kingdom rule to bring the earth and mankind back into harmony with Jehovah's purposes. Whether they do this from the heavens or upon the earth will be revealed in God's due time.
The only option offered by Christ now is the kingdom covenant, to rule with him as a brother. The "rest of the dead" will eventually receive their opportunity too, but for now, Christians have but one hope, the Kingdom covenant hope.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Colette on 2017-03-23 02:03:28
Rufus, this is an interesting viewpoint. I went to catholic mass as a child, but as a non catholic was forbidden to partake of the bread/wine, which I longed to do. Became a JW at 20. Now 30 years later, at last, I am pleased to show my faith in Jesus shed blood.
You are right, the 'other sheep' are excluding themselves from the kingdom arrangement by not partaking. It was such a simple command, and what excuse can you give if you were right there and passed it on. I have read that Satanists celebrate their black mass in a similar way.
What gross disrespect!
The righteous are humble, and may reason: "but I don't want to be a king and rule others." I felt the same, until someone pointed out what it means to be a king and rule. No glorious position in a palace and being served such as the case with kings today. Look at Jesus' example: He came to serve others. Being counted as righteous and worthy as one of Jesus' brothers will allow us to love, serve and help others so that at the end of the millennium, God can be all things to everyone.Reply by John S on 2017-03-26 19:35:16
Hello Rufus; enjoyed the scenario of 'surprise!'
Armageddon is now past, and by the grace of God you’ve survived into Earth’s new paradise. But as new scrolls are opened and a clearer picture emerges of life in the New World, you learn, either by a direct judgment or a slow realization, that you have not yet been declared righteous so as to inherit everlasting life. You are astonished to learn that you were found to be unworthy of this gift of undeserved kindness as you had expected. Instead, your lot and judgment is to work toward “coming to life at the end of the 1000 years.” (Rev 20:5)
In this circumstance, you find yourself on equal or nearly equal footing with the unrighteous, such as those who lived before Jesus and never came to know his promise of salvation by being declared righteous by undeserved kindness. You find yourself as just one of many peoples who together now have the opportunity to know and exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but over the next thousand years. Granted, you might be ahead of others in faith and understanding, but you must wait the same amount of time until the end of the 1000 years to receive “eternal life.”
I agree that if we accept WT's explanations of the future scenario of Armageddon, Great Crowd. and being 'resurrected during the 1000 years'....we have serious and disturbing inconsistencies.
When I started really looking hard at the scriptures 10 years ago, and even afterward, I started discussions with the 'Bible Students', one of the brethren here is also coming aboard....
I started to see the need to just STICK to Jesus' explanations, and let WT dogma (Russell and Rutherford, and Franz)fly away out of my mind.
Right away I began to see something emerge about 'Paradise' from reading Gen.3
'Perfect' people make mistakes...... Adam, and Eve, both, had issues, and it became plain to me from reading God's sentencing of all three there that Eve was not ready to start bearing a world-full of children, but was totally NOT wanting sex with Adam; knowing what would happen; she saw calves being born......
Father had something to say about that. Read it again. (3:16)
Adam? Oh yes, he was more than ready, and had been since before Eve came it appeared. But, when she ate, what did he do? Joined her, because I believe he loved her to the bitter end, and FELT RESPONSIBLE in part for 'pushing her over the edge'.
We know if she had reservations about obeying God, and being 'one' with Adam, she had a serious problem, and where did she turn for answers? Not God , but especially not pushy Adam, right? What about the 'Tree of Knowledge'...good and bad...could it help me?
Guess who else wanted in on the "fill the earth and subdue it." ?
Another being who had his own agenda; starting his own race of beings; made in his own image. Which ultimately he did.(Gen.6)
"But wait!, you say, angels can't have children, as it says, "Like angels in heaven who are not given in marriage...."
Just because they do not marry doesn't mean some would never come to earth and disobey..."forsaking their own original position", ....take wives for themselves, and start a superman race that became 'Satan's seed', that did hate , and tried to destroy the human race via saturation of the humane genome/DNA, and almost succeeded until God stepped in and obliterated them all. Yes, they had children, with bodies, DNA compatible, and all. And yes, angels came here in physical forms, ate, drank, had sex, etc. So, another ?? Are angels just ghosts? I don't believe so.
Think about this, too.
Ephesians 1 says the ransom was planned even before the foundation of earth.
Christ, who created all the universe, as it was his to do; (Col.1:15-17) knew people would need forgiveness; perfect people will make mistakes too; children, for instance (like Eve). So Christ planned on coming down to show how much forgiveness would be needed eternally, even after the 1000 years and mankind's tests, the resurrection, everything. He would and will, prove the universe-machine must be run with the oil of love and forgiveness, why? Because we all; angels, humans, and all created beings, are free-willed, on a huge, steep, learning curve from the get-go.(children for instance) And are we still, all, not just children?
Revelation says even after all persons are resurrected, some still would not be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem to receive healing for different 'ailments', and these are called outrightly liars, dogs, disgusting in their filth, etc.
So, even after all the dust has settled, freedom of choice will be showing up some very damaging personality traits that have become case-hardened sins, right?
What am I getting at? Summing up;
All of us reading here have been exposed to a 'cut and shuffled', explanation of
'Perfect'
Righteous
even,..SIN. By WT. But...
Notice 1 John 5:16
There is a sin that incurs death.
So...Adam and Eve may have had many an argument, and she may have really grown cold in her love for him.....but this didn't kill her. The fruit did. And even then , if she had gotten to the fruit and ate it, she would have been cured. Fact. Read it in the next verses.
Now, if we begin again, reading without WT colored glasses, we may begin to work out inconsistencies and questions that may come up.
Here's one;
WT says people will be resurrected right after Armageddon.
The Revelation says there are two resurrections. One before Christ takes over the planet, and then when he attacks at his 'coming'....the other occurs
"after the 1000 years have ended, and Satan is abyssed"
Rev. 20:11
The judgment day for the resurrected comes, not during the 1000 years, but after...Satan is not around.
And we notice, that the dead , who stand before Christ as judge, are being judged not according to how they are tested by Satan, etc....
"they were judged individually according to their deeds"...which is what is in the 'scrolls'. WHEN they are resurrected from 'Hell.' Adamic death.
Christ does look at what everyone is doing, and resurrects some to life, but the evil will be judged as they stand before Christ, not released onto earth to cause havoc and evil again. Pharisees, Judas, those who engage in the sin against the spirit, and persons who have 'practiced sin exceedingly' while they lived on earth.
To WT , and the 'Bible Students', all people will be forgiven of ALL they did...a "Ransom for All", this being a C.T.Russell teaching.
But the scriptures say Christ knows how evil doers will just continue to do evil, and he , although brings them back before the throne, knows some will never do right, and are incorrigible. So they aren't gonna make it into the New Earth at all.(Rev.20:15)
There is only so much we can take; the human race I mean. Mankind just went through Armageddon...so are we gonna get another whole world full of wicked people right back here all at once again?! 15-30 billion of them!?
Anyway,...my point in ALL this is this;
We all need to have a big STOP,LOOK, and LISTEN to Christ moment, and re-read everything, and start forming our own clear and better understanding, rather than continue forming our religious beliefs on C.T. Russell or J.F. Rutherford....Franz...(great Crowd and 144,000 only going to heaven, etc.)
There are better explanations to be had.
And we have a much better think tank available with the modern-day JW, as the average JW is pretty well-read on the basics (in part to research done by Russell, and the preachers he got a lot of his understanding from).
And I know many of my previous JW brothers and sisters would exult, if they would just come over here and join in discussions like this.
Amen?
Freedom. To think, and ponder the wonderful story of God and mankind.
Happy reading, and may Christ be here in our discussions.
Comment by Amitafal on 2017-03-23 04:04:39
Thank you for your work Rufus. I see what you are saying to a point, but still struggle with the thought of partaking bread and wine. Maybe that's because of JW indoctrination for over 20yrs?
This year I don't feel I can attend the memorial with the JWs but still not sure what to do. In some ways I think the Catholics are correct in partaking more than once a year, but it feels strange to now partake and how? At home on my own ? With awakened friends?
Please don't think I'm being awkward here, just something I can't quite get my head around.
I know it has been mentioned about the manna before, but again it is a new concept for me to partake.
If you can further explain using scriptures it would be most helpful.
Many thanks
AmitafalReply by Menrov on 2017-03-23 08:15:23
HI Amitafal, Jesus said, where 2 or three are gather in my name, I will be there. In other words, if you gather with people who really are gathered in Jesus's name, I guess it would be fine to eat and drink. In my view (see discussion on this topic on DTT), it is not a once a year event but can be done every time when you gather.
Comment by lazarus on 2017-03-23 16:00:54
Thanks Rufus, interesting take on looking forward and contemplating where ones in the future, asking why? They got it wrong, as they were following the instructions of the Organisation.
Well interesting, note a little snippet from the Jw.org in 1987.
The Watchtower of June 15, 1987, noted that the previous year, in 1986, "It was appreciated that both the remnant and the “great crowd” must figuratively partake of Jesus’ flesh and blood by accepting his sacrifice in order to be in harmony with him.—John 6:53-56.
So, How do both, the remnant and the great crowd, figuratively partake of Jesus' flesh and blood? (Quote See w87 6/15 p. 19 par. 13)
The newly released book in 1986, Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace,” explained how those who are in the new covenant partake at the Lord's evening meal merely in a figurative way, saying: "The sacrificial death of the Mediator of the new covenant, Jesus Christ, is remembered every year by Jehovah’s Witnesses on the anniversary of 'the Lord’s evening meal.' The unleavened bread partaken of by those in the new covenant during that 'evening meal' symbolizes the perfect flesh of the Mediator, and the wine symbolizes the pure, uncontaminated blood that, according to the Scriptures, contained the very life value of the Mediator. (1 Corinthians 11:20-26; Leviticus 17:11) When those in the new covenant partake of the Memorial cup of wine at 'the Lord’s evening meal,' it is only in a figurative way that they are drinking blood, that of the Mediator of the new covenant. It is also in a symbolic way that they eat his flesh when they partake of the Memorial loaf of unleavened bread. By doing this, symbolically speaking, they demonstrate their faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Son of God, the Redeemer of all mankind."—Worldwide Security [ws] chap. 12 p. 104, pars. 13-14)
Partaking is not wrong, even if you don't feel you have a heavenly calling. It's for both parties to partake, that's how I understand it anyway. Paul explained by partaking we are "proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1 Cor. 11:23-26; Eph. 4:4-6)
Comment by Awakening on 2017-03-23 21:06:03
Dear Amitafal, last year was my family's first year of awakening. We still were going through alot of readjusting. I'm a forth gen born in. The idea of partaking was terrifying. My daughter was sure it would be the unforgivable sin. I prayed alot. We made an event of it. First we realized the meal took place the day before the passover. We watched a movie that read all of the book of John. We got some oil lamps and ate outside. We had lamb, bitter greens and unleavened bread for dinner. We prayed and partook. It was a special event for our first time. I then spent alot more time praying and trying to understand how often we should partake. We have done it a few times since. One time, with a small christian group, I found myself breaking down in tears to be openly offered this gift. I hope you also can find accepting the beauty of this gift one of peace.
Comment by Johnsc11 on 2017-03-24 17:46:55
Awesome discussion. We believe that the Great Company class make up the individuals that ran the race for the mark of the prize of the high calling that fail to make their calling and election sure but don't do into second death. We believe this to be an mercy class. Since many are called to run for the 144,000 but not all make it. So they fall into the Great Company class. They will eventually be over comers but will fail to make their calling and election sure.
Reply by amoreomeara on 2017-03-25 14:37:25
Hi John,
Do you have any scriptures to support this? In particular those that fall short of the 144,000 will be the Great Company Class? Thanks! :-)Reply by Johnsc11 on 2017-03-25 16:27:00
""The harvest is past, the summer has ended, and we are not saved."
Jeremiah 8:20
Of course. It mainly comes through reasoning. We know that since Jesus' day the Holy Spirit has been inviting people to the divine nature to be of the bride of Christ. Only during this Gospel Age are we invited. Not during the Jewish Age not the Millennial Age. We also know that there will be billions in earth! But during the Gospel Age we know that there is only one calling and that is the heavenly calling (Eph 4:4). Those who are not begotten of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth. Well if there are 144,000 that are of the bride and the Great Company is in heaven before the bride, ask yourself how are there two groups of spirit beings in heaven if there is only one call? We know the 144,000 are those who have "made their calling and election sure." Those who have won the race ( 2 Pet 1:10, 1 Cor 9:24). Only the 144,000 gain the prize of the divine nature. Who who is the "great multitude standing before the throne"? Logically they are those who did not win the prize since we know God is NOT calling two groups of people at this time; only one group. The Bible refers to them as castaways or as some translations say "disqualified".
1 Cor 9:27 states:
"No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize"
What prize is this? One who will make the bride class with the promise of blessing the world of mankind in the millennium. (Genesis 12:3)
So how can there be two groups in heaven yet only one call? Logically they are those who did not make the Bride class.
The Bible says we can lose the crown. (Rev 3:11)
We believe that only those who are anointed with Holy Spirit can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. If one willingly repudiates God and turn away WILLINGLY from him there is no salvation for him left and he goes to Second Death. (Heb 10:26).
The world of mankind cannot go into second death as the JWs teach. If we look at the type and antitype of the Passover night we believe that night represent the Gospel Age (death of Jesus until millennium). Only the firstborn was affected with the promise of death if he came out from beneath the blood. Not the other. The firstborn represents those whole will make up the Bride class and are called "church of the firstborns". Therefore no one else is in threat of second death unless they first come underneatg the blood and willingly come out from underneath if. But what if those who lose their crown but aren't bad enough to go into second death?
We can lose our crown but the Bible says we can still be saved. (1 Cor 5:5)
The Bible shows that we (the Bride class) will be worthy to escape these things coming in the tribulation. (Luke 21:36). This is shown in the Type that Enoch was taken before the flood and so the church will be taken before the tribulation. But the great company class will go throughy part of the great tribulation which is why they come out if it.
The Great Company will serve the Lamb and the bride in his temple forever (Rev 7:15) . This is also shown in Psalms 45 where the "virgin her companions" who are brought into the "Kings Daughter" and follow her into the palace (Ps 45:14,15) They are shown not to be of the Bride but serve her day and night in the temple (Rev 7:15).
So if the Great Company are before the throne and not on the throne with the lamb and his wife how come there is a secondary class of spiritual being in heaven? Obviously not everyone will make up the Bride but will be in heaven. They lost their crown but didn't go I to the second death. These were those who consecrated themselves and gave themselves up to be sacrificed with Christ who failed to make their calling and election sure.Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-25 20:17:38
Hello Johnsc11
you say "we beleive..." a couple of times? I am curious as to who the "we" is.
Your comment is fast moving, I would like to try to understand it however I am having trouble sorting it out... could be me!Reply by Johnsc11 on 2017-03-25 20:25:36
I understand. It's a lot. It's not a thing like "here's a scripture bam." ? It's a doctrine from the start of the Bible unto the end.
The "we" is Bible Students. We believe in what was taught by the Early Watchtower. We study the Studies in the Scriptures and the Zion's Watch TowerReply by Dajo on 2017-03-26 06:40:34
Hello John,
Wow! So do you mean you stick to some of the earlier stuff? Are you saying you stay with a set of beliefs between some "start date" and an "end date".
I'm fascinated by this concept. Can you put it in a nutshell?
If you can't it's ok. Do you meet with a like minded group, and how many.
thank you, I enjoy reading your comments.
David.Reply by Johnsc11 on 2017-03-26 08:15:05
Dajo. Yes we stick to the earlier stuff. Yes I meet with an ecclesia here and we have conventions all over the USA and world. We still publish the Studies in the Scriptures. We still read the (Zion's Watch Tower). We don't believe what Rutherford wrote. Our Watch Towers start from 1879-1916. We still use the Chart of the Ages. But we can update teachings too. The best thing about it is that there is no leader or Governing Body. There is no headquarters. Each ecclesia is autonomous (self governed)!! We vote in elders and we each are free to believe differently than one another. The Watchtower teaches that we broke off and died off or rejoined Christendom. That's a lie. We are still here. It's not that we stick with beliefs between some dates. It's that we don't believe what Rutherford taugh. Lots of xJWs are joining the Bible students.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-26 12:29:34
Hello John,
I have a number of difficulties with what you wrote above. Part of the difficulty is that, while you are a Bible Student, your doctrinal view echoes much of WT theology, which I would presume we both have issues with. The other difficulty is that, after extensive study and research, I don't believe that anyone is going to heaven. I have commented at length on this, such as on the Bible Study Forum under "Salvation".
You noted, "during the Gospel Age we know that there is only one calling and that is the heavenly calling (Eph 4:4)". Ephesians does in fact speak of a calling, but the word "heaven" is only mentioned in Eph. 4:7-10 with regard to Christ alone. It says nothing of other people ascending to heaven.
You said, "Those who are not begotten of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth." I contend that everyone will remain on the earth. By that understanding, a great deal of confusion about what the scriptural hope of mankind is cleared up. For instance, you say "how are there two groups of spirit beings in heaven if there is only one call?" The answer is, there aren't two groups of spirit beings in heaven. There aren't any at all. Everyone is on earth.
As for the 144,000, many others have eloquently argued that this is a symbolic number. It denotes, not those "called" to be in heaven, but those (of some undetermined number) called to serve (temporarily) as kings on earth, as Revelation 5:10 informs us. Being part of that symbolic 144,000 has nothing to do with gaining a "divine nature". There are so many reasons for concluding that.
The scriptures tell us that God does not need the advice and counsel of mere humans, and never did Jesus ask anyone for advice on how to teach and lead his followers. God and Christ do not need our help to govern mankind.
Further, if the "144,000" rule for 1,000 years, what happens in year 1,001? Do they stand in the unemployment line? When Christ hands over his rulership so that God is all things to everyone, those human kings won't be needed anymore. So what will they do in heaven then? Sit on clouds and play harps (or maybe video games)? It just doesn't make any sense.
In contrast, earth's population *would* need guidance from human rulers with whom they could talk and discuss how earth's affairs should be best managed. God and Christ do not need humans taken to heaven to help them rule the earth, as if the universe was being run by a committee. But we do need them here, as human rulers of flesh and blood.
Both those temporarily assigned the role of kings, and those ruled over, are "before" the throne, where the Greek word for "before" means "in the sight of". It is not necessary for humans to be taken to heaven to be before the throne. All that is necessary is for God and Christ to keenly observe and look upon mankind on earth with favor, and with kindly interest in us, to be in the sight of the throne.
As far as there being "two groups", it only makes sense that no matter how faithful a Christian might be, every last single individual Christian cannot be a king. That would be crazy and impossible to administer, not to mention unnecessary. Further, some people, in their heart of hearts, may not want to be a king, or are simply not "king material". Surely our Father would not force us to be a king if we didn't want to and if we were content to just be a subject, now would He?
I know that many, many people over the centuries have believed they were going to heaven. But it's not necessary to have that belief and still have faith in God and Christ.
The so-called "heavenly hope" contradicts the scriptures that say that the earth and man were "very good", and that the earth was given to man while the heavens belong to God. Believing in that "heavenly hope" doctrine basically calls God a liar, because it means the earth is not only NOT very good, but isn't even "good enough" for these good Christians. It shows disrespect for God's gift of the earth.
Finally, that doctrine plays into the hand of God's enemy. We must ask, who was it that first said that humans could be immortal and take on traits that were only possessed by God? Satan, that's who. He told Eve that she would not die but would be like God. The churches of Christendom have repeated that lie for centuries, and later, people like the Millerites, Russell, the Bible Students and the body of WT doctrine to this day have also repeated that lie. We must face the truth: the "heavenly hope" doctrine is a teaching of demons.
No one is going to heaven, because we don't belong there. We belong here.Reply by Karen on 2017-03-26 18:47:42
Thank you once again Robert for your logical and clear words.... I like how you think and agree whole heartedly with your sound thinking...
The earth indeed belongs to humankind, it was given to us by our heavenly father, the heavens belong to spirit creatures. How arrogant indeed to think that humans converted into spirit creatures could advice the God who created us??
Since leaving the WT following the ARC in 2015 I have been constantly patted on the head so to speak .... 'poor dear doesn't get it yet' because I cannot accept that we are going to heaven.... I am so appreciative and say thank you again that there is another individual out there who believes as I do....A belief based on evidence not simply a whim or personal desire ...
If the earth is to stand to time indefinite and we are all going to heaven then what will the earth be used for?
The scriptures are simple and clear why complicate things as the WT are so good at doing?
Thank you thank you Robert I thoroughly enjoy reading your comments ....
Thank you again Robert, I cannot tell you how glad I am to have read your thoughts....Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-26 18:57:46
Thank you for the kind words, Karen.
The thing that got me started on all this is an article called "Where is the Great Crowd serving God?" It was written in the 1980's when there was a dissident faction at Bethel. If you do a google search on this you may find the web site that has a summary of it, or Meleti may have a copy I sent him. Or, if you can give me an email address I could send it to you directly.
Basically it shows that the word "naos" in Greek, which means the inner sanctuary of the temple, is where both the 144,000 and the great crowd are located. WT didn't like this document being shared, and they expelled a bunch of people from Bethel. It seemed an awful lot like they were promoting the "all good Christians go to heaven" concept, and perhaps some were. But as I kept researching this, I realized they were "right" up to a point, but got it backwards. It's not that everyone goes to heaven, it's that no one does.
But then, what about all the references to the "temple"? Doesn't that mean heaven? No. There is a verse (you can look it up) where it says something like, 'you are God's temple' or 'which temple you people are'. So, those first century Christians WERE the temple, right here on earth, as humans. Suddenly, everything made sense. Then, how could the great crowd be "in" the temple AND be on earth? They do that by the earthly kings and their subject working side by side on earth. Those kings ARE the temple, and the subjects are IN the temple by cooperating and working together.
Result? Everyone is on earth.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-27 11:33:12
I have researched 1 Corinthians 15 quite closely. Here are my comments: http://beroeans.study/2017/02/24/salvation-part-4-all-in-the-family/#comment-359
Your mention of types and anti-types is unconvincing. This is a Bible Student/WT theory that WT themselves have now (rightly) rejected as unsupported in scripture. The concept of types and anti-types should be recognized for what it is: the exercise of human reasoning and wishful thinking, to wish some doctrine or theory to be true merely because that is what you want, rather than having scriptures and sound reasoning to back it up.
You evidently say above that there are Christians that don't go to heaven, but elsewhere you say there are two groups in heaven but one group was unworthy of the calling. I cannot understand what you are saying. I truly do not know what your position is, because your explanation is extremely hard to follow.Reply by Colette on 2017-03-27 21:34:17
Hi Robert I would appreciate a scriptural reason of why Jesus words at John 14:2 do not refer to his followers going to heaven, plus also why Jesus said that a lesser one in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the baptist.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-28 06:57:11
Hello Colette,
I certainly wouldn't claim to have an answer for everything, but I will do my best.
Here are the verses of John 14 in context, from the Berean Study Bible:
"2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going. 5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
We must appreciate that centuries of Christian thought have affected how people read, study, understand and translate these verses. A number of commentaries on John 14 immediately start discussing heaven, assuming that this is what Jesus was referring to, and few of those commentaries even bother to justify that assumption; it's simply a given to them. They see "rooms" or "mansions" in the verse, and jump to the conclusion that God and Christ are going to build some 'heavenly mansions' for them to live in, and they don't look any further.
I would have you consider your question literally, when you asked for "a scriptural reason of why Jesus words at John 14:2 do not refer to his followers going to heaven". The literal answer is, Jesus' words do not contain the word "heaven". In fact, the word "heaven" does not appear anywhere in chapter 14. Thus, any understanding about heaven is an interpretation. The question, of course, is whether that interpretation is a correct one.
Gaining an insight into this verse takes some digging. There are two important words in this verse, which are "house" and "rooms". The Greek word for "house" is "oikia". According to Strong's Concordance, "oikia" can be rendered not only as "house", but as "household". What exactly is a "household"? Here are some definitions for this word:
- "the people of a house collectively; a family including its servants"
- "the people in a family or other group that are living together in one house"
- "those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family"
- "a social unit composed of those living together in the same dwelling"
The main point of these definitions is to show that the word "household" concerns people, while "house" focuses on a building or structure. For instance, this word "oikia" is used in Philippians 4:22: "All the saints send you greetings, especially those from the household of Caesar." Clearly, a building with four walls and a roof does not send "greetings". Only people can do that. So, the same word "oikia" can either mean a building or a group of people that live in a house. We would normally call a group of people that lives in the same house a family.
As for "rooms", this comes from the Greek "monai" which has been variously translated as "rooms", "abodes", "mansions" and "dwelling places". The root meaning of "monai" is to "abide" or "remain", which is why some translations say "abodes". The thought of "remaining" is in contrast to not remaining, or being "transient". So, those dwelling places will be permanent ones.
In verse 3, Jesus says he will prepare a "place" for them, from the Greek "topon". Strong's defines this as "a place, region, seat; an opportunity". That last meaning is interesting, isn't it?
Putting all of this together, is it possible to understand this verse without reference to heaven? Yes.
A correct, alternative rendering of this verse could be, "There are many places to remain in my Father's household." If we draw the understanding of verse 3 into verse 2, we could also word this as,
"There are many opportunities to remain in my Father's household." Now, with the understanding that the word for "house" or "household" can mean "family", that would give us "There are many opportunities to remain in my Father's family."
What would it mean to be part of the Father's family? Would it not mean to be adopted as children of God? Yes. Look down at verse 18, where Jesus tells us directly: "I will not leave you as orphans". Children of God are not orphans. We do not need to live in heaven to be rescued from being orphans, any more than grown children who move away from their parents' home are "orphans" just because they live in their own house.
Finally, consider verses 3 and 23: "3 I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. "23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him."
If John 14 was referring to people going to heaven to live in heavenly "mansions", why would Jesus say the he and his Father would come to THEM? A "heavenly hope" doctrine would require people going in the opposite direction, would it not? But verse 23 is in harmony with Acts, where it says Jesus would return the same way he left, and with Revelation that says the tent of God is with mankind, not the other way around.
I believe John and Acts are telling us that Christ will return, in some form, back to the earth one day. Because his real home is in the heavens with his Father, his return here would be a temporary one, and would be for the purpose of helping earth and its new rulers understand his Father's will in the new world to come, and to give them guidance in properly administering earth's affairs.
Note John 8:35-36 (NWT): "Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. 36 Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will be actually free."
To me, John 14 has Jesus telling his followers that he is going to make arrangements for them to be a permanent part of the family of God by being adopted as God's children. Adoption is a legal arrangement. Just as in human families, once legally adopted children grow to adulthood, they may move to their own homes, but they don't cease being part of a larger family. Same here. We don't have to live in heaven to be adopted as God's children. We only need to be accepted by Him in a loving family arrangement.
For these reasons, it is not necessary to understand John 14:2 as a reference to a heavenly hope.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-28 11:42:00
Hello Colette,
You asked, "why Jesus said that a lesser one in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist".
Here is the account as shown in Matthew 11:11 (BSB) and my thoughts on this.
"Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
We must ask, who could possibly be worthy to baptize the son of God? He must have been a man of faith, honor, integrity, courage to speak out, and yet a man of great humility. Remember when John said, "I am the one needing to be baptized by you, and you are coming to me?" It is interesting that Jesus did not dispute what John said, per se, but just kindly convinced him to proceed, despite his misgivings borne of humility. Certainly, John was a fine man.
So, how could someone that is part of the kingdom be greater than John? First, John was killed by Herod before the death and resurrection of Jesus, and so John was not present at Pentecost to receive the outpouring of holy spirit. We should not minimize or overlook that. The scriptures describe receiving holy spirit as a great honor to be highly treasured. For John to lose the chance to experience that was a great loss for him.
What was the consequence of that? Consider Romans 8:15-17: "For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Because John died before all this happened, he missed out on being adopted as a son of God. Anyone who WAS able to benefit from that arrangement, and DID receive the spirit, would be in a more advantageous situation than John was while he was still alive.
What should we make of the phrase "the least" in the kingdom? How can someone BE "least"?
There are a few ways. All Christians have different strengths and qualities, and some might be more "prominent" than others. That may or may not be a good thing, but it exists as a possibility. After all, Jesus told us "For he that conducts himself as a lesser one among all of you is the one that is great." So, being a "lesser" one is not a bad thing.
Even if there were no improper motives or desires for undue prominence, not everyone might be used in the same way. Consider Jesus selected 12 apostles, but some like Bartholomew got barely mentioned, while others like the apostle John wrote books of the Bible. So, even some apostles seem (at least from the minimal coverage of their lives in the scriptures) like they were "lesser" than others.
However, there is more involved than simply the relative degree of prominence. Even if a Christian is adopted as a son of God, it cannot be the case that every last single individual Christian is going to rule as a king and priest with Christ. Such a thing would make no sense. It would be impossible to administer, and would be completely unnecessary. It would be, as the saying goes, like "all chiefs and no indians". Someone has to be the SUBJECTS of the king.
Thus, even a spirit begotten son of God might not be destined to rule as a king. They may simply be Christians that were adopted as God's children, who would nonetheless be part of God's kingdom. Not having that destiny to rule would in fact make them comparatively "lesser" than those who would rule, but they would still have a hope of eternal life as God's children. That is hardly a "consolation prize", even if it amounted to a "lesser" status.
Finally, this verse discusses "the kingdom of heaven". Does that reference mean that the "least ones" were destined to live in heaven? No. Jesus does not say those ones would LIVE in heaven - only that they would be IN the kingdom of heaven. These days, there are not many countries ruled by kings; most have presidents or prime ministers. But imagine you were in Europe at the time when it was ruled by kings, and suppose you were a French citizen living in France. You would be IN the kingdom of France. Would that fact mean that you were then on a first-name basis with the king of France, or that you personally resided in the French king's palace in Paris? No. You would simply be under the JURISDICTION of the kingdom of France. Same here. Being IN the kingdom of heaven does not mean being in heaven itself. It simply means being accepted as a citizen of that kingdom, whose KING is in heaven - but not the king's subjects.
Does the status of John the Baptist, at the time Jesus spoke these words, mean that he will always be "lesser" than Christians who followed him? We don't know. It is possible that in the future, John would be resurrected and given some role to play that would result in him no longer being "lesser". It is hard to imagine a man of John's exception qualities not having an important role in the kingdom. But, while he is asleep in death, Christians who were and are alive to benefit from the arrangement of being adopted as God's children are in a position superior to what was available to John during his lifetime.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-27 19:48:00
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Reply by simplyme on 2017-03-28 16:27:25
Hey Robert,
I was going back to see if I had missed any comments on this article and I ran into your comments on 1Cor. 15.
Wow, we have a very small study group, but this could have been written by one of us!
We have come to the very same conclusion.
You did a great job explaining the verses but this teaching of "going" to heaven is strongly entrenched.
I just wanted you to know your not alone in your understanding and I hope you get this reply.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-28 17:29:32
Thanks, S.M. Who is your study group? Are you referring to this forum or to people you associate with?
I find that one of the strongest arguments against the "heavenly hope" doctrine is the indefensible assumption that humans would be taken to heaven to help rule the world with Christ. The scriptures tell us about God saying, "Who as a man of counsel has taught me, or who has given something to me so that I ought to repay him"? When did Jesus ever ask for advice from his apostles? God and Christ do not NEED our help to rule the earth, as if the universe were run by a committee. But WE need human rulers here on earth to advise us how to best administer earth's affairs.
The various doctrines and theories about our future salvation have been bandied about by religions for centuries, and those doctrines have done nothing but confuse people. That is understandable, because they are false - and falsehood is always confusing.
If you go back and reread every statement in the Bible about man's future with 'new eyes' and with the understanding that we all have one destiny on earth, then suddenly, everything makes sense. Everything.
That is what you would expect from the truth.Reply by simplyme on 2017-03-28 19:16:24
Hey Robert,
Completely agree with your comments. We have roughly five that meet together weekly. Not so much but better than being alone.
Several years ago someone close to me started implying tactfully about heaven and I was angry at them and very resistant. Since they were close I thought I should investigate it further in hopes of helping them. The more I dug the more I saw they were right. I even found a paper done on the Apostolic fathers showing the earliest fathers did not believe in an otherworldly heavenly hope. It wasn't until the 2nd and 3rd centuries this idea started creeping in until it became locked in doctrine.
Scripturally there are many reasons we came to this conclusion one is what it means when the Bible speaks of a "new heavens and earth". That this did not mean an otherworldly place but a government or structure of things which has nothing to do with this system but is all here on earth. We also came to very similar conclusions on what it means to be immortal and incorruptible in relationship to Adamic sin and death.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-28 19:39:42
The irony of all that is that WT almost understands it. They say the new heavens is a new ruling arrangement, and the new earth is a new righteous human society. They are not wrong when they say that. But then they fall back on the doctrines of Christendom to cling to the idea that "anointed" ones are going to heaven to rule with Christ, and perpetuate a two-class system of salvation, and worse still go around saying that the "great crowd" have no mediator, are not children of God but only His "friends" and so on.
One thing that tipped me off is that the Greek word for "immortal" doesn't mean "cannot die". It only means, "doesn't die". If Adam hadn't sinned, he'd be alive today, and so he was created immortal. Only, immortal does not mean indestructible. Once punished by God, his children were genetically flawed, and so we are no longer immortal, as we would have been had sin not entered into the world.Reply by simplyme on 2017-03-28 20:10:17
You are so right about WT. In 2Peter 3 they understand this concept that satan's system of things are being destroyed and a new system of things will be replacing it. As witnesses we were always saying "in the new system I will be...". What does that term "system of things" mean? They will give you an answer that is very close to correct but then when these same heaven(s) is mentioned elsewhere it automatically becomes an otherworldly place.
Sometimes I wonder if the GB know some of this but it would destroy their two class system and in their minds their position of power.
On immortal I like to use this example. The words perfect and imperfect. The difference is "im" which means not, so it is perfect and not perfect. Same with mortal and immortal, the difference is "im". So they mean dying and not dying. Doesn't mean they can't die but they are no longer in a dying state.
Reply by Karen on 2017-03-30 19:52:13
Thank you Robert for your response. I am sure if I asked nicely Meleti would be happy to forward my email address to you as I would be most interested in reading this article.
Thank you again enjoy reading your comments.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-26 23:49:13
You ask an excellent question. If everyone with God's approval goes to heaven, what is the earth needed for any more? But the scriptues say that the earth was NOT made for nothing but to be inhabited. Those two ideas cannot both be true. It also begs the question, if righteous mankind's destiny is in heaven, why bother making the earth in the first place? God went to an awful lot of trouble during creation if the earth is merely a "disposable planet". It makes it sound like the creative work of God is a total waste of time.
To me, none of that makes any sense. As one looks closer and closer at this "heavenly hope" it results in one paradox after another, but life on earth for all humans not only makes sense, it fits the facts and is in harmony with the entire bible.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-27 10:50:42
Hello John,
I understand your view on debates. So many ex-JW sites where debates take place end up being venues for arguments and hostility, which I view as unnecessary. To me, a doctrinal position ought to be solely supported by scripture, and if it can't be, that is the end of the matter. I feel that it should be like a mathematical proof. No one gets hostile or argues whether 2+2=4. Either it's true or it's false, or else there is not enough information to make a determination.
I find your writing style hard to follow, so my apologies if I mischaracterized anything.
You say that you see lots of errors in what I wrote, but you don't cite any of these errors. If I am really in error, would it not be in harmony with 1 Peter 3:15, "always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you" to point out at least of some the things you believe I am wrong about? Maybe I *am* wrong. I don't know everything.
You asked, "Who said anything about everyone who had gods approved goes to heaven and the world was made for nothing?" You did, when you wrote "during the Gospel Age we know that there is only one calling and that is the heavenly calling". You cited Eph. 4:4 but as wrote in my first reply, that verse does not support your position, since it says nothing about heaven.
You wrote, "1 Cor 9:27 states: “No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize". However, the word "prize" is not present in the Greek; this was added by the translator of the version you quoted.
You then state, "So how can there be two groups in heaven yet only one call? Logically they are those who did not make the Bride class." I am confused by this statement. Are you saying there ARE two groups in heaven? Or that there are NOT two groups? I cannot understand what the point is you are trying to make here. If, as you say, some people will be disqualified from the "prize", why would God then reward them with life in heaven anyway, in some kind of inferior role?
This is a doctrinal concept that was promoted by Russell and the Bible Students, but you have not really shown any scriptural support for this "two class" concept. That is understandable, since as you admitted, "It mainly comes through reasoning." That preference for human reasoning is evident in statements such as, "We believe that only those who are anointed with Holy Spirit can blaspheme the Holy Spirit." Why would you have such a belief, when Jesus himself did not believe that? Look what Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 12:31-32: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come." The Pharisees were never anointed with holy spirit. In the very next breath, Jesus calls them part of a "wicked and adulterous generation", and they were instrumental in having Christ put to death. Yet they are clearly shown to have committed a blasphemy against the holy spirit.
I understand that you are holding on to strongly entrenched beliefs, but in the absence of any clear scriptural support for them, I find them unconvincing. I mean no disrespect and have no wish to argue, but you have not made your case here.
Comment by BrotherNicodemus on 2017-09-08 06:56:44
Hi, it was said "Paul speaks of it being done on the Lord’s day, not the Passover."
What does that mean? When? How often? Can I do it privately on my own alone?
Comment by Pleasant Unity and the Memorial | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2018-03-04 08:11:59
[…] Paragraph 9 then makes more of this interpretation of Ezekiel suggesting that the “unity described in Ezekiel is clearly evident each year as the anointed remnant and the other sheep gather to observe the Memorial of Christ’s death!” Really? Most congregations do not have a member claiming to be ‘anointed’. In those that do have such a member in reality it can cause disunity because of the ‘celebrity status’ bestowed on the ‘anointed’ one as this can lead to others claiming ‘anointing’ to receive the same status. Of course, now there are also those of us who through prayer and conscientious study of God’s word believe that all true Christians should partake. (See this previous article for a more in depth discussion) […]