[From ws17/10 p. 26 – December 18-24]
It will occur—if you do not fail to listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.”—Zec 6:15
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The first thing you should do before studying this article is read the entirety of chapter 6 of Zechariah. As you read it, look carefully to see if there is any application, any application whatsoever, beyond Zechariah’s day?
Now consider these words by Governing Body member, David Splane, delivered at the 2:13 mark of video of the 2014 Annual Meeting Program:
“Who is to decide if a person or an event is a type if the word of God doesn’t say anything about it? Who is qualified to do that? Our answer? We can do no better than to quote our beloved brother Albert Schroeder who said, “We need to exercise great care when applying accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures as prophetic patterns or types if these accounts are not applied in the Scriptures themselves.” Wasn’t that a beautiful statement? We agree with it.”
Then, around the 2:18 mark, Splane gives the example of one brother Arch W. Smith who loved the belief we once held in the significance of pyramids. However, then the 1928 Watchtower nullified that doctrine, he accepted the change because, to quote Splane, “he let reason win out over emotion.” Splane then continues to say, “In recent times, the trend in our publications has been to look for the practical application of events and not for types where the Scriptures themselves do not clearly identify them as such. We simply cannot go beyond what is written.”
You might also want to consider the follow-up to that talk published in the March 15, 2015 Watchtower, “Questions from Readers” on page 17.
So we are no longer going to teach antitypes unless they are explicitly declared in the Bible. That is the official position of the Governing Body and yet this article commissioned by the Governing Body violates it.
How can they expect us to be obedient to everything they teach us if they won't obey their own direction?
One of the reasons they dropped antitypical applications is that they often came across as silly. For instance, in this article, the two mountains Zechariah speaks of are interpreted by the Governing Body to represent “Jehovah’s universal and eternal rulership” and “the Messianic Kingdom in the hands of Jesus”. However, the application was to Zechariah’s day, a time before the Messianic Kingdom in any form came into existence.
We could go on, but it seems fruitless to do so. After all, most of the antitypes apply to 1914 and 1919, and we've spent considerable effort demonstrating from Scripture that all the JW teachings concerning those years are false.[i]
Take Part in the Building Work
What is the writer of this article really after? First, the non-scriptural antitypes are intended to shore up the belief of Jehovah’s Witnesses that God is backing the Organization. What more is expected from the rank and file?
Today, millions join in true worship, and they are moved from the heart to contribute their “valuable things,” which include their time, energy, and resources in support of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. (Prov. 3:9) How can we be certain that Jehovah values our loyal support? Remember that Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah brought the materials for the crown that Zechariah made. The crown then served “as a memorial,” or “reminder,” of their contribution toward true worship. (Zech. 6:14; ftn.) Likewise, the work and the love we show for Jehovah will never be forgotten. (Heb. 6:10) They will remain forever, cherished in Jehovah’s memory. – par. 18
In short, give your time and money to the Organization and Jehovah will remember you and bless you, because you have helped build His modern-day temple. And what is His modern-day temple? According to the Bible, the temple represents the anointed Christians that make up the bride of Christ, not some human-run Organization with real estate holdings all over the world. (2 Co 6:16) In fact, the Bible doesn't ever use the word "organization". So equating the temple of God to such things cannot be based in Scripture.
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[i] See the two categories “1914” and “1919” on the home pages of Beroean Pickets Archive.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Warp Speed on 2017-12-17 19:47:15
Short and sweet Meleti. No need to elaborate on these bogus "antitypes" that are not supposed to be taught any more.
All I hear is white noise......Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-17 21:04:39
Warp how do you describe white noise? I know it to be a hissing sound or "Low tone static". Can you elaborate?
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-17 21:54:13
One definition is: "meaningless or distracting commotion, hubbub, or chatter"
Does that help?Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-17 22:42:26
Not really, I don't believe hubbub or chatter to be accurate nor the other either. Scientifically it's the noise you hear when a television station goes off the air of a channel but the radio is still broadcasting, it never goes off or out of the air, an invisible force that can be heard.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-17 22:51:33
Sorry to offend you. Next time I won't use a term you don't understand...
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 00:02:08
You didn't offend me Warp and there wasn't any term you used that I didn't understand unless you meant it in a slang way.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-18 04:12:13
Oh dear! ?
I understood what Warp meant, Psalmbee.
It is a neologism, a new word or made up term that uses a scientific term as you correctly stated, to describe the effect of words that have no meaning. Just like the white noise when the channel went off air... There was some noise but it was meaningless.
That was a long time ago when we used to have white noise on the TV!
So when Warp said white noise I understood it to refer to meaningless chatter.
Somewhat like when my husband lovingly refers to me as a " plank", I know he's not meaning I'm literally a piece of wood, but am acting a bit dim.
??
Personally I like the way the English language has evolved to be humorous. Jesus used it with camels going through eyes of needles. Although he wasn't speaking English..... Oh dear. ?
Much love to you all... Your comments made me chuckle. Just what I need as I'm suffering the wonderful winter cold virus.Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 07:37:51
Yeah for sure M/M nothing in the English language is absolute. I was just heeding the principle at (Matt 5:37). I try not to horseplay with words or make new meanings out of old words it's already confussing enough. I am in the U.S.A and don't consider it funny when the "Tract" society destroys enormous amounts of land just to print their literature\litter-a-tour. I'm not saying I don't know how, I can hang with the best of them when it comes to that.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-18 17:02:01
Hi PB,
Very interesting application of Matthew 5:37. Does that mean that if someone uses slang he is from "the wicked one"? I'm confussed....Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 18:30:00
Hi Warp Speed, not at all what I meant,I was speaking for myself when I said that. I myself have been very guilty of using slang. It's something I'm trying to refrain from. With all the varieties of English nowadays it's very difficult to keep up with regional slang.I would much rather speak in basic terminology that provides a route for staying on course much more smoothly. I hope you and yours are doing well this Holiday Season! I'm fine, just hanging out here in my "little platoon" reading the mail.
Reply by Lois on 2017-12-18 21:52:53
I’m confused about confussed ?
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-18 22:00:58
I was quoting Psalmbee
Reply by Lois on 2017-12-18 22:08:06
Forgive me WS...I was trying to be humorous but I guess it didn’t work. I enjoy your comments very much!
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-18 22:32:48
Hi Lois,
I did get the humor?
Thanks
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-12-18 18:18:18
Where is your proof that WT destroys enormous amounts of land to print literature? What land? Where? If WT does this, what does the NY Times do? Is the consumption of trees for paper the sole extent of this destruction, or did you have something else in mind?
I am by no means a fan of WT, but if you are going to hurl insults around, you ought to at least include the tiniest semblence of facts to back them up.Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 19:16:13
You must not be aware of the trampling the Earth is afflicted with just to make paper. Logging is a very destructive and kills wild life in abundance. I've got plenty of proof. 46 million Watchtower mags. 45million Awake mags per month being printed along with all their other material they need lots of paper. large amounts of Poisonous Ink was found at the Warwick construction site buried in the ground. They have no recycling system in place for all their unwanted literature that stacks up in active publishers homes and elsewhere. Perhaps you should see the dark side of the Business to get a full view. I've done my research and what I've found out is that they keep it very dark. Look into it see what you find out!!!
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-18 21:08:30
Are you saying that the Warwick site was contaminated by WT ink?
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-12-18 21:21:37
Maybe you have "done" research, but you haven't cited any of it. For whatever paper WT consumes, it is a drop in the ocean of the whole world's paper usage.
WT is not responsible for the conduct of loggers, but it so happens that loggers do replant logging fields, and because logging on existing lands had disturbed them in the past, it's unlikely any additional wildlife gets disturbed from new activity. (Not impossible, but just less likely, since the damage is already done.) The reality is, there is probably more damage being done to forests from global warming (like changes to growing seasons, droughts and altered patterns for harmful insects) than from logging alone.
Poisonous materials buried at Warwick? They were left by the prior owners; this is a well known issue.
Recycling? Why would WT have a recycling system for literature in publishers' homes, when those publishers can use their own municipal recycling? This doesn't make any sense.
I will say again, I am no fan of WT, but this tirade you have going against them is unimpressive and your arguments don't hold water. If you have specific, verifiable criticisms against WT activities, provide links that prove your claims.
Saying this information is "dark" is meaningless, and sounds like conspiracy-theory talk. Either this evidence exists, or it does not. If it exists, it is not "dark", and if it doesn't, you made up the whole thing. It can't be both. If you want us to take you seriously, you have to decide how you want it.Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 22:50:20
Excuse me about the recycling I forgot it's not their literature after it leaves the press, the publishers own it. That's funny. How can you think they are so squeaky clean when they have ruined so many lives without missing a single issue. I don't need a theory to know that this is a conspiracy. You can take this however you want, but I peck when I type, I own a flip phone, I don't keep records, I'm not a lawyer, I don't provide links other than scripture available here, because I don't know how and don't want to learn. I'm not here to try and out apostate anyone, I'm on my own, I don't gang up with anyone or any group, I'm not janus-faced. I put it out there you can run with it or you can try to keep it under the rug for them or should I say the covers cause they are in bed with all of Babylon the Great. I'm not gonna decide how I want it that's not up to me or you. Don't be a blind guide. Quit fishing for minnows when the sharks are circling.Those silver Bibles sure are pretty, not too many cedars in Lebanon left, get em while they last.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-19 00:23:40
I assume the previous owners had a real good reason for burying a bunch of 55gal steel drums of poisonous ink that rusted and seeped in the ground over all those years, you got any oceanfront property in Arizona you want to show me? I saw it on the news being handled at a city level. WT legal team best in the Business and behind the scenes at keeping things hush hush and diverting attention to protect the elite. They squelched it with the quickness.
Reply by Eleasar on 2017-12-19 08:57:19
Robert,
I concur with your view.
There is a lot of obsfucation in wt society. Many who have left add their theories and views.
What is required is to stick to the facts and when we have a theory or perspective state it as such.
Otherwise it muddies the waters and the truth will not shine out as easily. Much of this deflects the conversation.
An example is ARC. We should discuss it by explaining the purpose of a royal Commission and it’s scope.
Then we go into the data and eho provided it and in this case it was Wt for case study 29 and 54. From here just state the numbers and ask questions.
When we go into the entire org is full of abusers etc it loses clarity and then impact.
WT have helped people over the years. This must be acknowledged. But it has also done a lot of damage to people. This too must be acknowledged. Then we can help people weigh up matters.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-18 08:21:58
Sorry to hear you're sick, MarthaMartha. The only good thing about a winter cold is it forces me to stay indoors and binge-watch my favorite Netflix shows.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-18 08:18:44
For me, it's like the static you get when a TV is tuned to a station that is not transmitting. Of course, if you have cable, there's no such thing. :)
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-18 04:13:56
?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-19 09:12:47
We were just reading 1 Cor. 13 in our weekly bible study and it brings to mind 1 Cor. 13:7 where Paul tells us that "Love...believes all things". I find we in particular need to implement that aspect of love when communicating with one another online, because written communication lacks the moderating factor of body language and tone of voice; so what is written can easily be taken in a way that the writer never intended. Thus, it is best to "believe all things", in the sense of believing the best of the writer, giving them the benefit of the doubt. This is even more so the case in our community where many are coming out from under years (or decades) of deception and as a consequence are experiencing real psychological trauma which includes depression and anger.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-19 21:24:12
Agreed Meleti. Good counsel indeed.?
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-19 23:23:02
Ps 108:12
Reply by Devora on 2017-12-24 10:31:50
Amen,dear brothers and sisters.."faith operating through love"(Gal.Ch.5) the important key;holding to our Master.Having mostly recovered now from PTSD:from slanderers- within(they were kept hidden;got off free),I have much gratitude..for all of you...in your well-meaning,sincere comments.In acceptance of all of our current imperfections,traumas, losses,griefs.. Love's It;takes care of ALL,Ephesians 3:17-19.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-17 20:22:00
Meleti, The question to the angel in verse 4 by Zechariah raises a red flag for me. I feel it would translate best as "Is this the Lord I'm seeing"? Keeping in mind this was a "prophetic vision". 2nd flag, it appears to me that the red horses and the first chariot have disappeared (out of sight or vision). The angel also describes these chariots and horses as spirits unlike what is described in Genesis and Isaiah and other places. That's a little mysterious to me and could indicate days beyond Zechariah.
Reply by wild olive on 2017-12-17 20:45:04
To add a bit more to pslambees comment.
I think it's always worth remembering that the OT scriptures were what our 1st century brothers and sisters had in front of them as Gods written word, which always pointed them towards Christ , as this was the goal of these collected writings. They also had the eyewitness accounts and letters of counsel and encouragement from the apostles , but this wasn't put together in a book till around 110 AD. So I find it beneficial to always ask myself " how did the 1st century brothers and sisters look at this material "? After all theirs was the " faith that was delivered once for all time". Jud:3
I find the more I try and pull things back to their time it always seems to make sense, because they were the ones who really "had the truth".
If we are going to go the WT way and start saying things apply in some other way not specified in the NT scripture, then I feel we are falling back into the same mistakes that started with Charles Russell and continues with the present GB, which in turn corrupts the faith of Jud:3.
Just an opinion.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-17 22:01:35
Meleti, in reference to them being an organization with Real Estate holdings all over the world, I'll just say that I don't think they had a pamphlet in mind when they named their Corporation Watch Tower Bible and -"TRACT"- Society. That to me is a perfect example of type antitype lingo they use. It serves a dual purpose.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-18 04:20:17
Ha very droll Psambee!
I admit I had a moment of confusion there; we don't tend to use the word tract for land here in UK. Very clever though; tracts of land, tracts expressing strong opinions on religion, and bronchial tracts, which are causing me much trouble this week.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-12-18 11:06:53
There's a lot of nasty stuff around. Get well soon, MM, wherever you are in this country.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-20 17:54:06
Still here and fighting the lurgy Leonardo! Cough cough!
?
Reply by Yehorakam on 2017-12-17 23:24:59
Hey Psalmbee. You are on the right track if you can see that some of what's written in the prophets has not yet been fulfilled. Sadly, the organization has applied every unfulfilled prophesy to their own organization. It seems "it's always about them." They're just so self-centered, they can't see how things really apply. Unfortunately their abuse of applying unfulfilled prophesies to themselves has left a really bad taste in ex-JW's mouths. So much so that many don't wish to consider that some of the prophet's prophesies indeed are for the future (they just have nothing to do with the JW org).
Just to give you a really good tip to understanding: Revelation is a compilation of all the unfulfilled prophesies of the prophets. It's as if our loving Father did us the favour of putting all the prophet's prophesies that had a secondary and greater fulfillment into one book for us. The 2 olive branches are the 2 Witnesses of Revelation. The flying scroll is the same one as Revelation. The woman in the basket is Babylon the Great...etc. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will teach you these things and the like.
Much love,Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-18 00:14:13
Thanks, Yehorakam for the tip but I thought we were talking about Zechariah 6 in this article?
Reply by Yehorakam on 2017-12-18 00:23:32
Yes indeed. My refs were to Zech 4 & 5
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-12-19 09:42:21
You are quite right, Yehorakam. This is how it was from the time I became a JW and further back. The prophecies in Revelation were about them, and events in the last days. Those funny dayss in Daniel were all (and still are !) to do with periods between Conventions. Everything was used to picture them. Remember Jehu and the Jonadabs, etc. Everything was being fulfilled in the Organisation somewhere. And we all swallowed it.
Were we gullible ? Maybe.
But we trusted them then , even if we thought some things were a bit odd.
What is the position now ? Yes the antitypes may be largely gone, so what do we find when we lift the lid ? Not a lot of substance. Maybe even an empty box.
I wonder what Jesus thinks.
And this week we are doing it again.
Sad.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-19 21:22:37
For starters,@ JWleaks letter_on illegal_toxic_dumping_at_ Watchtower_ farms1_.pdf ,also 1,888 trees located within Warwick work area 1,461 of them destroyed (U.S. Army Corps. of Engineers). Unknown amounts of wildlife exterminated. The Buffalo bullet: Watch Tower Society being investigated for illegal toxic dumping in Hudson Valley Watershed. By Barbara Anderson. Also just to point out to those unaware when W.T. sold out from DUMBO and other portions of the Brooklyn area They sold to The Kushner Group. AKA The President of the U.S.A son in law Jared,the most prestigious of the properties and buildings, according to Robert Devine legal spokesperson for THE WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC. U.S.A. I only went over a few of my notes that I could find. I feel like people should know what their into. Business schemes that are based on religion have obviously worked for The Watch Tower Society. The leaders of this multi-billion dollar corporation attempt to conceal their financial success and money making schemes from loyal followers.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-19 21:45:27
Anyone got a 10-20 on the first chariot with red horses that's been M.I.A.? (Ec 11:5) perhaps ?
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-19 22:17:02
Five different colored horses red, black, white, grisled, and bay (king James) older revisions of the NWT say speckled and parti- colored for the last two.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-20 11:28:25
Wow, a thumbs down for clarifying scripture. Who are we working with here? Beelzebub. (busybob).
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-20 09:09:21
Can I get a Hallelujah can I get an Amen? Feels like the Holy Ghost running thru ya when I'm feeling those shunned effects of the naysayers. I'm out here in the open, I feel no shame, I can hear the lullaby of the midnight train. Progress came and took it's toll, and in the name of flood control they made their plans and drained the land. The last time I walked in the swamp I sat upon a cypress stump. I listened close and heard the Ghost of the Holy One cry, blow blow Watchtower wind blow like you're never gonna blow again. I know who you are! Some people may try and guess the secret of happiness, but some of them never learn it's a simple thing. I'm singing this note cause it's fits in well with the chords I'm playing. I got it all here in my head there's nothing more needs to be said. If there's a method to writing this song how come I ? Keep getting it wrong. Come on and show me. Suddenly just turn the page. It's actually not very hard. What's hard is making it feel hard.
Psalmbee and others....
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-20 10:37:23
Don't fool yourself, sir, it isn't just one organization active against you.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-20 22:37:41
Ifionlyhadabrain, What happened to your comment that was in this spot above mine below??
Comment by Psalmbee on 2017-12-21 09:26:21
Meleti Vivion, I'm surprised that you or no one else here picked up on the Five horses so plainly stated in Zech 6:2,3. Now I'm being shunned for pointing that out, but I think it's more about as one commentor put it "hurling insults" at the Watchtower. I'm getting a good picture of where the line gets drawn here. People can criticize all the way up to the Governing Body but go no further. Don't say nothing about the "upper escutcheon". Don't mess with the Watchtower war machine, keep it rolling at all costs, otherwise a lot of people go out of business. I am requesting a "backroom meeting" before my shunning becomes official. Please respond!
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-12-21 09:34:48
Here is my response: What utter drivel. For the love of God, please stop talking.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-21 09:48:28
Which God you talking about Robert? WTBTS of the World? The "In God we trust" God?$$$$$$$$ Money Money Money Money$$$$$$$ Which one? (1Tim 6:10).
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-21 10:41:06
Psalmbee, I think it best if we leave the "backroom meetings" in the Kingdom hall, don't you? Be assured that no one is shunning you. Some may disagree with your view on a Scripture, but isn't that their right? Don't you want the right to disagree yourself? The important thing is that we can have different viewpoints on Scriptures that are interpretive in nature without allowing the difference of opinion to affect our love for one another. Our words should always be expressed out of love.
"Let YOUR utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how YOU ought to give an answer to each one." (Col 4:6)Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-21 12:04:28
The haunting and the haunted play a game no one can win. I'm sorry it goes down like this but someone has to lose. Let the inmates free the guards! (Is 49:9), (Ps 69:33), (Ps 79:11).
Comment by Thaddeus on 2017-12-31 11:49:03
[i] "See the two categories “1914” and “1919” on the home pages of Beroean Pickets Archive."
This seems to be a dead link.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-01 08:26:47
Hi Thaddeus, I just checked both out and there are articles listed under both. When you click on the plus sign, does nothing show?
Reply by Thaddeus on 2018-01-01 14:33:02
At the bottom of this article it says "[i] “See the two categories “1914” and “1919” on the home pages of Beroean Pickets Archive.
I click the words "Beroean
Pickets" which is highlighted as a link.
When I do it takes me to a page that states:
No Results Found
The page you requested could not be found. Try refining your search, or use the navigation above to locate the post.
Categories.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-01 17:17:47
I understand now. I've fixed the link. Thank you.