In the last video, we examined the hope of the Other Sheep mentioned in John 10:16.
“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses teaches that these two groups of Christians—“this fold” and the “other sheep”—are distinguished by the reward they receive. The first are spirit-anointed and go to heaven, the second are not spirit-anointed and live on earth still as imperfect sinners. We saw from the Scriptures in our last video that this is a false teaching. The Scriptural evidence supports the conclusion that the Other Sheep are distinguished from “this fold” not by their hope, but by their origins. They are Gentile Christians, not Jewish Christians. We also learned that the Bible does not teach two hopes, but one:
“. . .One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6)
Admittedly, it takes a little time to adjust to this new reality. When I first realized that I had the hope to become one of the children of God, it was with mixed feelings. I was still steeped in JW theology, so I thought this new understanding meant that if I remained faithful, I would toddle off to heaven, never to be seen again. I remember my wife—seldom given to tears—weeping at the prospect.
The question is, Do the anointed Children of God go to heaven for their reward?
It would be nice to point to a scripture that answers this question unambiguously, but alas, no such scripture exists to the best of my knowledge. For many, that’s not good enough. They want to know. They want a black-and-white answer. The reason is that they don’t really want to go to heaven. They like the idea of living on earth as perfect humans living forever. So do I. It’s a very natural desire.
There are two reasons to put our minds at ease regarding this question.
Reason 1
The first I can best illustrate by putting a question to you. Now, I don’t want you to think about the answer. Just respond from your gut. Here’s the scenario.
You are single and looking for a mate. You have two options. In option 1, you can choose any mate from among the billions of humans on earth—any race, creed, or background. Your choice. No restrictions. Choose the best looking, the most intelligent, the richest, the kindest or funniest, or a combination of these. Whatever sweetens your coffee. In option 2, you don’t get to choose. God chooses. Whatever mate Jehovah brings to you, you must accept.
Gut reaction, choose now!
Did you choose option 1? If not…if you chose option 2, are you still drawn to option 1? Are you second guessing your choice? Do you feel you have to think about it some, before making your final decision?
Our failing is that we make choices based on what we want, not what we need—not what’s best for us. The problem is we rarely seem to know what is best for us. Yet we often have the hubris to think we do. Truth be told, when it comes to choosing a mate, we all too frequently make the wrong choice. The high divorce rate is evidence of this.
Given this reality, we all should have jumped at option 2, shuddering at even the thought of the first option. God chose for me? Bring it on!
But we don’t. We doubt.
If we really believe that Jehovah knows more about us than we can possibly know about ourselves, and if we truly believe that He loves us and wants only what is best for us, then why wouldn’t we want him to chose a mate for us?
Should it be any different when it comes to the reward we get for putting faith in his Son?
What we have just illustrated is the essence of faith. We’ve all read Hebrews 11:1. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures puts it this way:
“Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)
When it comes to our salvation, the thing hoped for is most definitely not clearly seen, despite the beautiful depictions of life in the New World found in the publications of the Watchtower Society.
Do we really think that God is going to resurrect billions of unrighteous people, responsible for all the tragedies and atrocities of history, and everything will be hunky dory from the get-go? It’s just not realistic. How often have we found that the picture in advertising doesn’t match the product being sold?
The fact that we cannot accurately know the reality of the reward that the Children of God receive is why we need faith. Consider the examples in the rest of the eleventh chapter of Hebrews.
Verse four speaks of Abel: “By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain…” (Hebrews 11:4) Both brothers could see the angels and the flaming sword standing guard at the entrance to the Garden of Eden. Neither doubted God’s existence. In fact, Cain spoke with God. (Genesis 11:6, 9-16) He spoke with God!!! Yet, Cain lacked faith. Abel, on the other hand, won his reward because of his faith. There is no evidence that Abel had a clear picture of what that reward would be. In fact, the Bible calls it a sacred secret that had been hidden until revealed by the Christ thousands of years later.
“. . .the sacred secret that was hidden from the past systems of things and from the past generations. But now it has been revealed to his holy ones,” (Colossians 1:26)
Abel’s faith was not about belief in God, because even Cain had that. Nor was his faith specifically that God would keep his promises, because there is no evidence that promises were made to him. In some way, Jehovah manifested his approval of Abel’s sacrifices, but all we can state with certainty from the inspired record is that Abel was aware he was pleasing Jehovah. Witness was borne to him that in God’s eyes, he was righteous; but what did that mean in the final outcome? There is no evidence that he knew. The important thing for us to realize is that he didn’t need to know. As the writer of Hebrews states:
“. . .Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6)
And what is that reward? We don’t need to know. In fact, faith is all about not knowing. Faith is about trusting in the supreme goodness of God.
Let us say you are a builder, and a man comes to you and says, “Build me a house, but you must pay for all expenses out of your own pocket, and I will pay you nothing until I take possession, and then I will pay you what I see fit.”
Would you build a house under those conditions? Would you be able to put that kind of faith in the goodness and reliability of another human?
This is what Jehovah God is asking us to do.
The point is, do you need to know exactly what the reward will be before you can accept it?
The Bible says:
“But just as it is written: ‘Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.’” (1 Co 2:9)
Granted, we have a better picture of what the reward entails than Abel did, but we still don’t have the whole picture—not even close.
Even though the sacred secret had been revealed in Paul’s day, and he wrote under inspiration sharing a number of details to help clarify the nature of the reward, he still only had a vague picture.
“For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Corinthians 13:12, 13)
The need for faith has not expired. If Jehovah says, “I will reward you if you are faithful to me”, are we going to respond, “Before I make my decision, Father, could you be a little specific about what you are offering?”
So, the first reason for us not to worry about the nature of our reward involves faith in God. If we really have faith that Jehovah is supremely good and infinitely wise and overwhelmingly abundant in his love for us and his desire to make us happy, then we will leave the rewarding in his hands, confident that whatever it turns out to be will be a delight beyond anything we can imagine.
Reason 2
The second reason not to worry is that much of our concern stems from a belief about the reward that in fact, is not real.
I’m going to start off by making a rather bold statement. Every religion believes in some form of heavenly reward and they all have it wrong. Hindus and Buddhists have their planes of existence, the Hindu Bhuva Loka and Swarga Loka, or the Buddhist Nirvana—which isn’t so much heaven as a kind of blissful oblivion. The Islamic version of the afterlife seems to be slanted in favor of men, promising an abundance of beautiful virgins to marry.
Within gardens and springs, Wearing [garments of] fine silk and brocade, facing each other…We will marry…fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes. (Qur’an, 44:52-54)
In them [the gardens] are women limiting [their] glances, untouched before them by man or jinni – As if they were rubies and coral. (Qur’an, 55:56,58)
And then we come to Christendom. Most churches, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, believe that all good people go to heaven. The difference is that Witnesses believe the number is limited to only 144,000.
Let’s go back to the Bible to begin to undo all the false teachings. Let’s reread 1 Corinthians 2:9, but this time in context.
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:6-10)
So, who are the “rulers of this system of things”? They are the ones who “executed the glorious Lord”. Who executed Jesus? The Romans had a hand in it, to be sure, but those most culpable, those who insisted that Pontius Pilate sentence Jesus to death, were the rulers of Jehovah’s Organization, as Witnesses would put it—the nation of Israel. Since we claim that the nation of Israel was Jehovah’s earthly organization, it follows that its rulers—its governing body—were the Priests, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. These are the “rulers of this system of things” to whom Paul refers. Thus, when we read this passage, let us not restrict our thinking to political rulers of today, but include those who are the religious rulers; for it is the religious rulers who should be a position to understand “God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom” of which Paul speaks.
Do the rulers of the Jehovah’s Witnesses system of things, the Governing Body, understand the sacred secret? Are they privy to the wisdom of God? One might assume so, because we are taught that they have God’s spirit and so, again as Paul says, should be able to search into “the deep things of God.”
Yet, as we saw in our previous video, these men are teaching millions of sincere Christians searching for truth that they have been excluded from this sacred secret. Part of their teaching is that only 144,000 will rule with Christ. And they also teach that this rule will be in heaven. In other words, the 144,000 leave earth for good and go off to heaven to be with God.
It is said that in real estate, there are three factors you must always keep in mind when buying a house: The first is location. The second is location, and the third is, you guessed it, location. Is that what the reward for Christians is? Location, location, location? Is our reward a better place to live?
If so, then what of Psalm 115:16:
“. . .As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.” (Psalm 115:16)
And did he not promise Christians, the Children of God, that they would possess the earth as an inheritance?
“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5)
Of course, in the same passage, what is known as the Beatitudes, Jesus also said:
“Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.” (Matthew 5:8)
Was he speaking metaphorically? Possibly, but I don’t think so. Nevertheless, that is just my opinion and my opinion and $1.85 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. You must look at the facts and form your own conclusion.
The question before us stands: Is the reward for anointed Christians, whether of the Jewish fold, or the larger gentile Other Sheep, to leave earth and live in heaven?
Jesus did say:
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.” (Matthew 5:3)
Now the phrase, “kingdom of the heavens”, appears 32 times in the book of Matthew. (It appears nowhere else in Scripture.) But notice it is not the “kingdom in the heavens”. Matthew is not talking about location, but of origin—the source of the kingdom’s authority. This kingdom is not of the earth but of the heavens. Its authority is therefore from God not from men.
Perhaps this would be a good time to pause and look at the word “heaven” as it is used in Scripture. “Heaven”, singular, occurs in the Bible almost 300 times, and “heavens”, over 500 times. “Heavenly” occurs close to 50 times. The terms have various meanings.
“Heaven” or “heavens” can mean simply the sky above us. Mark 4:32 speaks of the birds of heaven. The heavens can also refer to the physical universe. However, they are often used to refer to the spiritual realm. The Lord’s prayer starts off with the phrase, “our father in the heavens…” (Matthew 6:9) there the plural is used. However, at Matthew 18:10 Jesus speaks of ‘the angels in heaven who always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven.’ There, the singular is used. Does this contradict what we just read from first Kings about God not being contained even in the heaven of heavens? Not at all. These are just expressions to give us some small level of understanding about the nature of God.
For example, when speaking of Jesus, Paul tells the Ephesians in chapter 4 verse 10 that he “ascended far above all the heavens”. Is Paul suggesting that Jesus ascended above God Himself? No way.
We speak of God being in heaven, yet he is not.
“But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!” (1 Kings 8:27)
The Bible says that Jehovah is in heaven, but it also says that heaven cannot contain him.
Imagine trying to explain to a man born blind what the colours red, blue, green, and yellow look like. You might try by comparing colours to temperature. Red is warm, blue is cool. You are trying to give the blind man some frame of reference, but he still doesn’t really understand colour.
We can understand location. So, to say that God is in heaven means that he is not here with us but is somewhere else far beyond our reach. However, that doesn’t begin to explain what heaven really is nor the nature of God. We have to come to terms with our limitations if we are going to understand anything about our heavenly hope.
Let me explain this with a practical example. I’m going to show you what many call the most important photograph every taken.
Back in 1995, the people at NASA took a huge risk. Time on the Hubble telescope was very expensive, with a long waiting list of people wishing to use it. Nevertheless, they decided to point it at a tiny portion of the sky that was empty. Imagine the size of a tennis ball at one goalpost of the football field body stand at the other. How tiny that would be. That is how big the area of the sky they examined was. For 10 days the faint light from that part of the sky dribbled in, photon by photon, to be detected on the telescope’s sensor. They could’ve ended up with nothing, but instead they got this.
Every every dot, every speck of white on this image is not a star but a galaxy. A galaxy with hundreds of millions if not billions of stars. Since that time they have done even deeper scans in different parts of the sky and each time they get the same result. Do we think God lives in a place? The physical universe that we can perceive is so big that it cannot be imagined by the human brain. How can Jehovah live in a place? The angels, yes. They are finite like you and I. They must live somewhere. It would appear there are other dimensions of existence, planes of reality. Again, the blind trying to understand colour – that’s what we are.
So, when the Bible speaks of heaven, or heavens, these are simply a conventionality to assist us somewhat in understanding what we cannot understand. If we are going to try to find a common definition that links all the various usages of “heaven”,” heavens”, “heavenly”, it might be this:
Heaven is that which is not of the earth.
The idea of heaven in the Bible is always that of something which is superior to the earth and/or earthly things, even in a negative way. Ephesians 6:12 speaks of “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places” and 2 Peter 3:7 speaks of “the heavens and the earth that are now stored up for fire”.
Is there any verse in the Bible that unequivocally says that our reward is to rule from heaven or live in heaven? Religionists have inferred that for centuries from the Scriptures; but remember, these are the same men who have taught doctrines like Hellfire, the immortal soul, or the 1914 presence of Christ—to name only a few. To be safe, we must disregard any teaching of theirs as “fruit of the poisoned tree”. Instead, let us simply go to the Bible, making no assumptions, and see where it leads us.
There are two questions that consume us. Where will we live? And what will we be? Let us try to address the issue of location first.
Location
Jesus said we would rule with him. (2 Timothy 2:12) Does Jesus rule from heaven? If he can rule from heaven, why did he have to appoint a faithful and discreet slave to feed his flock after he left? (Mt 24:45-47) In parable after parable—the talents, the minas, the 10 virgins, the faithful steward—we see the same common theme: Jesus departs and leaves his servants in charge until he returns. To fully govern, he must be present, and the whole of Christianity is about waiting for his return to earth to rule.
Some would say, “Hey, God can do anything he wants. If God wants Jesus and the anointed to govern from heaven, they can.”
True. But the issue isn’t what God can do, but what God has chosen to do. We have to look at the inspired record to see just how Jehovah has governed mankind down to this day.
For instance, take the account of Sodom and Gomorrah. The angelic spokesman for Jehovah who materialized as a man and visited Abraham told him:
“The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.”” (Genesis 18:20, 21)
It appears Jehovah didn’t use his omniscience to tell the angels what the situation actually was in those cities, but instead let them find out for themselves. They had to come down to learn. They had to materialize as men. A physical presence was needed, and they had to visit the location.
Likewise, when Jesus returns, he will be on the earth to rule and to judge mankind. The Bible doesn’t speak only of a brief interval where he arrives, gathers up his chosen ones, and then whisks them off to heaven never to return. Jesus is not present now. He is in heaven. When he returns, his Parousia, his presence will begin. If his presence begins when he returns to the earth, how can his presence continue if he goes back to heaven? How did we miss this?
Revelation tells us that “The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them…” “Reside with them!” How can God would reside with us? Because Jesus will be with us. He was called Immanuel which means “with us is God”. (Mt 1:23) he is “the exact representation” of Jehovah’s very being, “and he sustains all things by the word of his power.” (Hebrews 1:3) he is the “image of God”, and those who see him, see the Father. (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 14:9)
Not only will Jesus reside with mankind, but so will the anointed, his kings and priests. We are also told that the New Jerusalem—where the anointed reside—comes down out of heaven. (Revelation 21:1-4)
The Children of God who rule with Jesus as kings and priests are said to rule on the earth, not in heaven. The NWT mistranslates Revelation 5:10 rendering the Greek word epi which means “on or upon” as “over”. This is misleading!
Location: In Summary
While it may seem so, I am not stating anything categorically. That would be a mistake. I’m merely showing where the weight of evidence leads. To go beyond that would be to ignore Paul’s words that we only see things partially. (1 Corinthians 13:12)
This leads us to the next question: What will we be like?
What Will We Be Like?
Will we simply be perfect humans? The problem is, if we are only humans, albeit perfect and sinless, how can we rule as kings?
The Bible says: ‘Man dominates man to his injury’, and ‘it does not belong to man to direct his own step’. (Ecclesiastes 8:9; Jeremiah 10:23)
The Bible says that we will judge mankind, and more than that, we will even judge angels, referring to the fallen angels that are with Satan. (1 Corinthians 6:3) To do all this and more, we will need both power and insight beyond what any human can possess.
The Bible speaks of a New Creation, indicating something that has not existed before.
“. . .Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)
“. . .But may I never boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been put to death with regard to me and I with regard to the world. For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:14-16)
Is Paul here speaking metaphorically, or is he alluding to something else. The question remains, What will we be in the re-creation that Jesus spoke of at Matthew 19:28?
We can get a glimpse of that by examining Jesus. We can say this because what John told us in one of the last books of the Bible ever written.
“. . .See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.” (1 John 3:1-3)
Whatever Jesus is now, when he is manifest, he will become what he needs to become to rule on the earth for a thousand years and restore humankind back to the family of God. At that time, we will be as he is.
When Jesus was resurrected by God, he was no longer human, but a spirit. More than that, he became a spirit that had life within himself, life he could impart to others.
“. . .So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45)
“For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)
“Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’” (1 Timothy 3:16)
Jesus was resurrected by God, “declared righteous in spirit”.
“. . .let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, . . .” (Acts 4:10)
However, in his resurrected, glorified form, he was able to raise up his body. He was “made manifest in flesh”.
“. . .Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was talking about the temple of his body.” (John 2:19-22)
Notice, he was raised up by God, but he—Jesus—would raise up his body. This he did repeatedly, because he could not manifest himself to his disciples as a spirit. Humans do not possess the sensory capability to see a spirit. So, Jesus took on flesh at will. In this form, he was no longer a spirit, but a man. It appears he could don and doff his body at will. He could appear out of thin air…eat, drink, touch and be touched…then disappear back into thin air. (See John 20:19-29)
On the other hand, during that same time Jesus appeared to the spirits in prison, the demons who had been cast down and confined to the earth. (1 Peter 3:18-20; Revelation 12:7-9) This, he would have done as a spirit.
The reason that Jesus appeared as a man was that he needed to tend to his disciples’ needs. Take for instance the healing of Peter.
Peter was a broken man. He had failed his Lord. He had denied him three times. Knowing that Peter had to be restored to spiritual health, Jesus staged a loving scenario. Standing on the shore while they were fishing, he directed them to cast their net on the starboard side of the boat. Instantly, the net was overflowing with fish. Peter recognized that it was the Lord and leapt from the boat to swim ashore.
On shore he found the Lord quietly sitting tending a charcoal fire. The night that Peter denied the Lord, there was also a charcoal fire. (John 18:18) The stage was set.
Jesus roasted some of the fish they caught and they ate together. In Israel, eating together meant you were at peace with one another. Jesus was telling Peter that they were at peace. After the meal, Jesus asked only Peter, if he loved him. He asked him not once, but three times. Peter had denied the Lord three times, so with each affirmation of his love, he was undoing his previous denial. No spirit could do this. It was a very human-to-human interaction.
Let us bear that in mind as we examine what God has in store for his chosen ones.
Isaiah speaks of a King who will rule for righteousness and princes who will rule for justice.
“. . .Look! A king will reign for righteousness,
And princes will rule for justice.
And each one will be like a hiding place from the wind,
A place of concealment from the rainstorm,
Like streams of water in a waterless land,
Like the shadow of a massive crag in a parched land.”
(Isaiah 32:1, 2)
We can easily determine that the King here referred to is Jesus, but who are the princes? The Organization teaches that these are the elders, circuit overseers, and branch committee members who will rule on the earth in the New World.
In the new world, Jesus will appoint “princes in all the earth” to take the lead among Jehovah’s worshipers on earth. (Psalm 45:16) No doubt he will select many of these from among the faithful elders of today. Because these men are proving themselves now, he will choose to entrust many with even greater privileges in the future when he reveals the role of the chieftain class in the new world.
(w99 3/1 p. 17 par. 18 “The Temple” and “the Chieftain” Today)
The “chieftain class”!? The organization does seem to love its classes. The “Jeremiah class”, the “Isaiah class”, the “Jonadab class”…the list goes on. Are we really to believe that Jehovah inspired Isaiah to prophecy about Jesus as King, skip over the entire body of Christ—the Children of God—and write about the elders, circuit overseers, and Bethel elders of Jehovah’s Witnesses?! Are congregation elders ever referred to as princes in the Bible? The ones called princes or kings are the chosen ones, the anointed children of God, and that, only after they are resurrected to glory. Isaiah was referring prophetically to the Israel of God, the children of God, not imperfect humans.
That being said, how will they serve as refreshing sources of life-giving water and protective crags? What need will there be for such things if, as the organization claims, the New World will be a paradise from the start?
Consider what Paul has to say about these princes or kings.
“. . .For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.” (Romans 8:19-22)
The "creation" is seen as distinct from the "Children of God". The creation Paul speaks of is fallen, imperfect humanity – the unrighteous. These are not God’s children, but are alienated from God, and in need of reconciliation. These people, in their billions, will be resurrected to earth with all their foibles, biases, shortcomings, and emotional baggage intact. God does not mess with free will. They will have to come around on their own, decide of their own volition to accept the redeeming power of Christ’s ransom.
Like Jesus did with Peter, these ones will need tender loving care to be restored to a state of grace with God. This will be the role of priest. Some will not accept, will rebel. A firm and powerful hand will be needed to keep the peace and protect those who humble themselves before God. This is the role of Kings. But all of this is the role of humans, not angels. This human problem will not be resolved by angels, but by humans, chosen by God, tested as to fitness, and given the power and wisdom to rule and cure.
In Summary
If you are looking for some definitive answers as to where we would live and what we will be once we get our reward, I’m sorry that I cannot give them. The Lord simply has not revealed these things to us. As Paul said:
“. . .For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.”
(1 Corinthians 13:12)
I can state that there is no clear evidence that we will live in heaven, but the abundance of evidence supports the idea that we will be on the earth. That is, after all, the place for humanity.
Will we be able to transition between heaven and earth, between the spirit realm and the physical realm? Who can say for sure? That does seem to be a distinct possibility.
Some might ask, but what if I don’t want to be a king and a priest? What if I just want to live on the earth as an average human?
Here is what I do know. Jehovah God, through his son Jesus Christ, is offering us the opportunity to become his adopted children even now in our current state of sin. John 1:12 says:
“However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.” (John 1:12)
Whatever reward that entails, whatever form our new body will be, is up to God. He is making us an offer and it doesn’t seem prudent to question it, to say so to speak, “That’s fine God, but what’s behind door number two?”
Let us simply put faith in realities though not seen, trusting in our loving Father to make us happy beyond our wildest dreams.
As Forrest Gump said, “That’s all I have to say about that.”
Archived Comments
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Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 11:22:09
I'm wondering whos been observant, Did anyone spot galaxy Z in the Hubble telescope picture?
Comment by Helanren on 2018-05-24 15:46:07
Thank you so much for this article! One of the good points mentioned: I never understood why Jesus said that he would raise himself up, but now I understand that God resurrected his spirit, and our Lord himself raised up his own body.
Also, one scripture that really convinces me that Jesus will come back to earth literally is acts 1:9-11
9
After Jesus said this, he was taken up to heaven. They watched until a cloud hid him from their sight.
10
While he was going up, they kept on looking at the sky. Suddenly two men dressed in white clothing stood beside them.
11
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking at the sky? Jesus has been taken away from you into heaven. But he will come back in the same way you saw him go."
Btw, this is my first comment, I'm happy I finally found the courage to write one...
Greetings and love from the Netherlands! :DReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-24 17:29:05
Welcome, Helanren. I'm happy you did too. I am also happy you included Acts 1:9-11. I'd overlooked that, but what a great scripture to support the idea of a physical return and manifestation of our Lord.
Reply by Helanren on 2018-05-25 10:11:57
Thank you :). I've been reading your and Tadua's articles for a long time, but its a pity I never commented before. Thanks for all your hard work!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 11:13:10
My pleasure.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-24 18:38:18
Hello Helanren, and welcome,
As you are from the Netherlands, I am not sure if Helanren is a Mr. or Ms. Any hints you might want to offer are optional but would be appreciated :-)
(Sorry this post got so long-winded ... didn't realize how long it was until I had to go back and correct a typo.) Anyway ...
To me, the key point is verse 11: "Jesus has been taken away from you into heaven. But he will come back in the same way you saw him go."
Look what it says: These men SAW him go. What is the most reasonable conclusion we could draw as to how "he will come back"? That men would SEE him come back. Right?
Yet, what does WT teach? Oh no, not that. Nothing so simple. Instead, they say: 'Only a few faithful men were present at the event of Jesus' ascension in heaven, something that was unseen by the rest of the world. So, when Jesus returns, it will be unseen by the world.' Add to this, Russell had to come up with an explanation why Jesus didn't return in the late 1800's, and his answer was that he came back 'invisibly', because he latched on to that word parousia (presence) from the Emphatic Diaglott. Thus, contrary to the plain words of Acts, WT says that at Jesus' return, no one will see him, except with 'the eyes of faith'.
There are some major flaws with the WT doctrine about this.
First, there is Revelation 1:7: "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him."
This refers not to just godly men who see Jesus with 'eyes of faith' but to those who are viewed as his enemies, ones who will greatly regret his return. Those enemies might not be (and probably aren't) literally the same people from 2000 years ago that put him to death, but are most likely people who share the same violent, hostile and ungodly attitudes against him.
The point is, having 'eyes of faith' is not a requirement to see him.
Then there is this passage in Matthew 24:23:
---
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
---
When WT says Christ has returned invisibly in a way that can only be seen with 'eyes of faith' belonging to faithful men 'in the know', how is that any different than claiming he is 'in the wilderness' - some place out in the middle of no where, where no one could find him unless you knew where to look? Or any different from being hidden in a secret inner chamber of some room, which no one could enter unless they knew the 'secret password'?
What does Jesus say about such scenarios? "Do not believe it." What does WT say about that? 'Oh, sure, believe US. We are spirit-anointed, and we know better than Jesus.' Well, no, they don't literally say that last part, but don't their actions and statements over the years imply that very thing - that they believe they DO know better than Jesus? I'd say so.
Jesus gives the illustration of lightning. When a good, powerful bolt of lightning strikes, it pretty much doesn't matter WHERE it comes from. It will light up the entire sky - east to west, north to south. The point is, it's NO SECRET. Everybody knows. It doesn't require 'eyes of faith', just plain eyes. All you have to do is look, and BLAM, the whole sky is lit up.
Since these verses strongly argue against an invisible return, and we have the verse in Acts that says his return would be seen, it makes a good case that Jesus would return in physical form.
As to whether that form were a 'real' body, or merely something 'materialized' for the occasion, the Bible doesn't say, and it doesn't really matter. People just need to be able to see him, one way or the other.
Finally, we must face the possiblity that Russell offered the explanation of an invisible presence, not so much because it was true, but because failing to offer such an explanation would have forced another, simpler explanation: Russell was wrong, and didn't know what he was talking about, and worse, that he was a false prophet.
It is quite possible, and perhaps likely, that Russell's own pride was the source of this invisible-presence doctrine, necessary for him to save face, to avoid a humiliating failure and to avoid admitting that he was wrong.Reply by Helanren on 2018-05-25 10:01:40
I added 'Mr', I hope you can see it now... Helanren means Dutchman in Chinese btw haha. Im still very young. This year I will start attending college, after two gap years. I didn't start immediately because at that time I thought that higher education is baaaaad. Lets say im sort of pimo now.
Interesting summary, such small misinterpretations like from Russel lead up to big doctrines. Because he believed Christ's presence started in 1874 it could only be invisible, in his eyes.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 11:12:45
Thanks Helanren. I was wondering what the alias stood for. :)
Comment by samisaac on 2018-05-24 16:24:40
Excellent.
Comment by amoreomeara on 2018-05-24 17:07:37
Hi Meleti thanks for another excellent article which I agree with very much... except that you say “When Jesus was resurrected by God, he was no longer human, but a spirit. ” I know you go on to explain your position, but this is a WT teaching that I personally consider quite flawed. Thanks for all your hard work ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-24 17:33:28
Hi Amoreomeara. I don't think the WT is the only denomination that believes this. Just as many denominations, like the Mormons, believe Christ was resurrected in a glorified human body and goes off to heaven in the flesh. I think what is important is to look at what the Bible says, and try to find the answers that fit with all of the inspired record. That being said, I'm open to further discussion, because, like Paul, I only know "partially". :)
Comment by lazarus on 2018-05-24 22:02:59
Thanks Meleti,
I found after reading the previous article on the Other Sheep, and today’s article has encouraged me very much. I’m a happy guy today.
For decades I’ve internally, had so many questions regarding these points. Anointed, other sheep, Yes I used to ask myself questions, but could never find satisfaction in the answers through the WT library. It’s not wrong to question things, but we were restricted in exploring other explanations.
For me I appreciate tackling these points regards to Heavens, Return of Christ, judging the spirits etc etc,.
I find in my case that the spirit is patient and kind in allowing myself the right time to receive truths at a time when I’m mentally and emotional and spiritually free to do so.
The logic is well presented and if I can steal a phrase from the past, it has the “ring of truth” about it.
I will properly go over these two articles again.
Well done, worth the wait.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-05-24 23:32:21
Scientifically, is not the Earth the most beautiful celestial body of the heavens that we know of? Or is the planet Earth the only part of the universe that's not entitled to be part of Heaven? I wonder, oh I wonder.
"Heaven is that which is not of the Earth".
To that I would say: Earth is that which is of the Heavens, and is the most beautiful thing we know of to be in it.
That's what we know about Man's Heavens. We know nothing about Heaven in the
Bible!
Does anyone care to expand on what you know about Heaven? (Job 19:25,26,27)Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-25 07:16:59
To me, the most extraordinarily beautiful object (in the solar system at least) is not earth, but Neptune. Do an internet search on "picture of planet neptune" and you will see what I mean. It is a jewel in space, like a sapphire. Of course, the drawback is you can't live there. You'd freeze to death, be crushed to death by the atmopheric pressure, and that atmosphere would poison you to death. Other than that, it's a great place. Not exactly kid-friendly, but it sure is pretty :-)
Comment by Yehorakam on 2018-05-25 00:29:17
Hi Eric. When you say: "We can state that there is no clear evidence that we will live in heaven," this leads me to believe there is group of people that put forth this article, or that you speak on behalf of a group. Just wondering how I should understand that expression?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 09:39:57
Good point. That should (and will) read, "I can state". Mind you, if there is clear evidence that we will live in heaven, then please share. This is a forum in which any and every statement can be challenged, because we are seeking truth, not the exalting of men.
For example, sometimes I think that the spirit has opened up my mind to some truth. However, I'll never say, "the spirit told me", or "the spirit revealed to me", because that gives my words the force of divine inspiration. Anyone reading that will feel either that I'm full of that which emanates from the business end of a bull, or even worse, that I'm speaking for God--as some religionists we all know do claim.
That being said, I do believe the holy spirit guides us to truth just as Jesus said, but a guide is someone you follow, and sometimes--often times--we stray from the path the guide is taking. Thus, it is the spirit working through the group, not the individual, that leads us to truth.
So challenge away! :)Reply by messenger on 2018-05-25 21:42:21
1 Thessalonians 4:17 states, "...(We)will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord..." ESV study Bible. Also, Christ said he was going away (from Earth) to prepare a place for his followers (to be with him).
The Christian church goes to heaven (meets the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord), with apparently an ability to rule over the Earth from heaven. And it appears we will posses the ability to travel between heaven and Earth in that work, at least during the time span we rule over people on Earth.
The kingdom (the heavenly church of Christ) comes to the Earth. "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God ..... Behold the dwelling place of God is with man...God himself will be with them" Rev 21:2,3
Christ who is the primary ruler over Earth as a member and head of New Jerusalem apparently will also visit Earth again during that period. It will be said, "Behold the dwelling place of God is with man...God himself will be with them" Rev 21:2,3
No place in scripture does it call other members of New Jerusalem "God". But the scriptures frequently speak of Christ as God; and other scriptures not giving Christ that title validate his godship. See 1Col 1:16 "...All things were created by him and for him." That scripture in Col 1:16 states the goal (or purpose) of creation was that it was for Christ. We and everything were created for Christ; he is God, along with his father. The fact he submits his will to the Father does not invalidate that point.
Things created by someone, for that someone (and not another) is that person's property. That even applies to things created by people on Earth. Opening Bible scriptures let us known Christ and his Father created together, "let us make...." Both are God. Both creator, both owners of all they created. Thus God says he who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father. WT teaching Christ was just used to create by his father does not honor Christ; and it is a lie.
Angels are not in a position to be worshipped, per scripture. Neither are members of Heavenly Jerusalem, except for Christ. Christ was frequently worshipped, even during his life as a human on Earth. WT translated the Greek word it translates to worship when that word is placed in scriptures that apply to everything else (including Satan) to the phrase "did obeisance to" when WT applies that word to Christ. Why? To support its heresy of denying Christ's godship. Because WT recognizes the Bible teaches God only wants God to be worshipped WT does not teach that accurate Bible truth, the truth Christ was worshipped here on Earth already. And no one is rightfully worshipped according to God except God. Worshipping persons other than God is idolatry.
Join the discussionReply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-25 22:25:02
Messenger,
I read your post twice and still don't really understand the gist of what you are trying to advocate. If you really want others to join your discussion, I would recommend simplifying your post and reducing the number of points you are highlighting. Otherwise, readers will not know how to approach it, a certain amount of debate and arguing will occur, and then at some point your post will likely be forgotten.
Having said that, I note that in this mostly anti-WT rant that you believe WT (wrongly) translated its Bible as it did to "support its heresy of denying Christ’s godship".
A doctrinal position is "heresy" only if it is contrary to established dogma. You will find that the readers of this forum are generally not interested in dogma, but rather they are interested in the truth.
While I would concur that WT has often failed to uphold the truth in many respects, they didn't in this regard.
In my view (and that of most readers of this forum), Christ is not God and never was. I am totally fine with "denying" that assertion, since it's a falsehood, and to me, denying a falsehood isn't even slightly heretical. Christians are supposed to reject falsehood, not embrace it as you have evidently chosen to do.
I am not sure what you intend to accomplish here, but I suspect you will not succeed in your efforts.
If you came here to sell some sort of Trinity doctrine, you will find few buyers. That is as it should be.Reply by messenger on 2018-05-26 16:56:24
The person that judges you now and will judge you in the future is Christ. If you don’t fully appreciate Christ’s position now you will at some point. I suggest you curb your attitude. As Witnesses we all condemned biblical beliefs that varied from ours. That condemnation is not the “Way” of the “Truth”. The “Way” and the “Truth” are Christ, and some variance in belief about him is not the reason Christ condemns people. Those condemned do not belong to him (do you?). Why are you so defensive about your belief?
Condemnation of other Christian beliefs is what WT taught us. And WT is, was, and began as an apostate sect teaching false doctrines and speaking false prophecies. Every false story printed in WT literature about its declared anointed’s relation to Hebrew and Greek scripture is dogma, in the way you interpret that word. And if you don’t believe that go inside any Kingdom Hall and start telling people there Christ did not set up his kingdom in 1914. And yet God can even save some of those misled people. When asked who can be saved? Christ’s reply, “With God all things are possible.” If Christ knows you want to belong to him he will lead you. And there is nothing I can tell you that will help or hinder that. Nor is there anything you can say that can stop people when people choose to belong to Christ. You asked my intent here, I speak for God. All people wanting to know him will know him; and that means they will know the truth about Christ when they hear it. Christ’s voice is in scripture. His sheep hear his voice.
oin the discussionReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 13:37:28
Hi Messenger, I'm not sure whom you're addressing when you say, "Why are you so defensive about your belief?", but your tone is not conducive to a constructive discussion. Who in fact is the one acting defensively?
Additionally, what are you advocating by your repeated refrain: "Join the discussion"?
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-26 17:45:40
Christ is the Christian hope. John 14:6 Jesus said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The Christian hope if defined as what actually saves a Christian is having a relationship with the Father and Son. No one will have a relationship with the Father who does not have one with the Son. Everyone that has a relationship with the Son also has one with the Father.
Salvation does not come from knowing the details of salvation, a relationship with God and Christ is the entire reason they save people-that is the Christian hope. In the same way you would not kill someone you had a good personal relationship with if they had some incorrect ideas about something you said neither will Christ for that reason. Knowing whether we live on Earth or in heaven is not the Christian hope, Christ is. Join the discussion
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 12:17:11
Messenger, this is the area when personal interpretation creeps in.
You read, "meeting in the air", and "preparing a place for you" as proof they go off to heaven, with heaven being what is traditionally understood to be the place where God is.
As long as you see that as a personal interpretation, and do not promote it as doctrinal truth, I see no problem, since we are all willing to adjust our personal interpretations as more facts come available.
Some facts worth considering are that Paul uses "air" in the context of heaven at Eph 2:2 where he refers to the "authority of the air" referring to the devil and his forces who are in the heavenly places. In this case, heaven is not a location, but a state. The old heavens (the authority of the air, the authority of Satan) are to be destroyed. (2 Peter 3:5-7)
Viewing heaven as a state, instead of a location allows us to understand that the preparations Jesus was making for the arrival of the Holy Ones has more to do with whatever they will need to perform their heavenly (governmental) functions under his kingdom rule. Will they need a physical or spiritual "location", and an abode as part of the governmental function? Seems likely, but I'm not going to worry about that which I cannot know yet with certainly. What I do know is that they will govern as kings and priests on the earth. (Re 5:10)Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 18:42:11
No Eric, I do not believe the idea I shared that spiritual bodies given to some people who then also exist in the dimensions God and Jesus do is an opinion,mine or anyone else's. I view it as a truth clearly revealed in scripture. And when I start couching my biblical comments based on whether someone will accept those or have a problem with those I stop working for God. That is not going to happen, and I make no apology for not doing so.
What truth about God that we know we speak. Those failing to do so are not fit to serve in the kingdom because it will not work as God has planned it to by conforming God's truths to how people decide to belive them against God's will. And what is God's will for mankind now? That people come to an accurate knowledge of his truth. The truth is truth, it is not subject to an opinion or debate or speculative
reasoning.
Christianity is a big net that has been thrown over our Earth. It has brought in many fish. The separating has not happened yet.
Your idea that all things are not crystal clear to anyone on Earth is correct. And because of that Jesus will not judge us based on our having incomplete knowledge and understanding.
But be careful brother that you are not judge by Jesus because of working against him. Your comment that it is okay if mine was an option implies it's not okay with you if it is not my opinion as I've expressed. What then? A sensor? Be careful you are not found by Chtist to have worked against him somehow.
Peace to you brother, and may God's love be with you. And may he direct your steps toward your own salvation. I hold nothing against your comments because I realize we are not saved because of possessing much knowledge. A little is enough for salvation.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 23:34:43
Your words worry me, messenger. You speak condescendingly. You misrepresent what others have said, and your tone is preachy. Worst of all, you seem to believe that what is clearly your personal opinion should be taken by others as gospel truth.
Your tone disrupts the peaceful climate of free interchange of thought, understanding and research which it is my goal that this site provide. Many will refrain from commenting if a tone such as yours persists, and that works against the free flow of the spirit.
When someone presumes to teach us and uses intimidate tactics to quell debate, intimating that Jesus will judge those who disagree, we have dogmatism.
I've had a lifetime of that in the Organization and it has no place here.Reply by messenger on 2018-05-28 01:44:48
To that Eric I say adios amigos. I am not going to do as you wish and ask you or your followers on your Site to accept a Bible truth as my opinion when it is not an opinion of mine, but it is a plainly stated Biblical teaching.
I am surprised that with all the years of Bible study your members have had many including yourself do not realize such an obvious Bible teaching that all other Christians understand. I have never heard your line of reasoning expressed anywhere else. Surely you must realize your few members are not the remaining church by themselves, and that early Christians knew where they would be resurrected to if accepted as members of God's kingdom.
One thing does not surprise me though, because of the previous positions you claim were held inside Watchtower by members moderating this site. Because of your previous Watchtower positions I am not surprised about the recent comments you directed towards me. Trivial(example:"messenger why do your comments end with 'join the discussion'")and overly critical observations on your part, and comments attempting to force me to conform to your opinion. And I don't just mean your opinion about your biblical view, but included is your opinion about how to share comments your way.Best wishes to you. If Christ wills I'll see you in the New World, or if you go to heaven we'll meet there first.Reply by Dan Adams on 2018-05-28 20:23:19
Messenger, do you really want to leave in this manner? You said in another post that there is nothing you can say that will help or hinder those coming to Christ. But I disagree. Maybe you won’t affect the long-term outcomes, but you can certainly affect the short-term. I think that anyone such as yourself who has come to rethink some previously held beliefs is in a unique position to help bring about healing to the many divisions within the body of Christ.
Everyone here is in a process of discovery, and everyone needs the support of those who journey with them, no matter how far ahead or behind they might be from each other. It takes a great deal of humility and courage to begin the journey at all, and just as much humility in our interactions along the way. You may be familiar with the saying, “in the essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” But my experience has taught me that different denominations cannot even agree on what the essentials are, and this makes “plainly stated Biblical teaching” not quite as clear as we might think.
For those seeking mutual support in deepening their Bible knowledge and relationship with Christ, this site is invaluable. And rare. So I agree with Meleti’s position in his moderation of these discussions, and I hope you will come to appreciate his efforts and decide to stick around.Reply by Devora on 2018-05-30 10:04:12
Amen to your very insightful points,Dan...your mature spirituality is also very much needed here!
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-29 22:09:26
Messenger,
Let me share a scripture, (Mt 5:39). Don't think your words here are/were for nought my friend. I have read all of them and recognize and know your line of reasoning. Would you please keep in mind that everyone's level here is not the same. Meleti is one of the most knowledgeable men I know of on the internet, and also a very fair man, who has come along way in the last six years and that"s not counting the 60 or so years he spent as a JW.
I would ask you my Brother, to reconsider your decision as I know that a lot of us here, Appreciate what you can give (Mt 7:6).
Psalmbee
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-25 03:52:04
That was one fine article, Meliti. Our knowledge is so limited, it is an insult to God to try to outguess him. If Jehovah was going to reveal details not in the scriptures, what sort of persons would he reveal that to ? Rather, until the time comes, we all have his word, and that should be enough.
I have been trying to read some of the book of Revelation as it is, namely simply in the signs and pictures which John simply recorded. I am quite happy to just wait find out what it all means in due time, but meanwhile I can put my trust in both Jehovah and Jesus to act and reward as you have outlined.
If we read Revelation chapters 18 to 21, what do we get ? Simply that Jesus sorts this earth out once and for all and keeps Satan out of the way for a long period of time, 1000 years if you like, but it’s a picture. We get a view of the dead , released, or about to be released.
In chapter 21 we see a new earth, a new clean planet, and the picture of the New Jerusalem simply reminds him of the joy and splendour of the occasion when God’s presence will again be felt. Is that not what all the rest of the pictures following in Revelation are all about.
Eye has not seen....etc.(1 Cor 2:9).
Or maybe, just maybe, the new earth of Rev 21 is one of many new earths which God will be using in the course of time. We will all have to just wait and see.
Just my ramblings, friends.
Comment by Alithia on 2018-05-25 07:41:07
Hello Meleti, thank you for taking the time to compile this material for consideration.
You certainly have taken much time and effort, using pictorials and illustrations to present it in a way so the ideas can be easily understood; as they will be new and perhaps troubling teachings for many!
I certainly agree with some of the points you have made. I do however have issue with a number of your points that I will address in another post as I am working on the rebuttal at the moment. I really feel like I need to pull the wings and legs off this one Meleti so be prepared for a big one!!!! I will and in a loving spirit to use one of your expressions, “bring it on”
But firstly on the things I found I could readily agree on, and a few scriptures that indicate the location of the kingdom promises;
I agree that all of the Kingdom promises are located here on this Earth. Jesus taught his disciples to pray this way at Matthew 6:10. Your Kingdom come your will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. There was no need to pray for Gods will to be done in heaven as it is, has been, and will continue to be done there for ever. Gods plan of salvation is for man here on earth, this is where his will needs to be done as Satan has for a while side tracked mankind from carrying out Gods will to fill the earth with perfect humans who reflect Gods qualities and to subdue it and have all creation in subjection to him.
Very earthly stuff, like Gods plan originally was for Adam, marriage and procreation, have children, establish tribes, families, build houses, plant, eat, drink and have lots of fun with all creation to Gods glory.
Jesus taught his disciples and spoke many times about his role in this restoration of all things. After coming down the mountain with some of his disciples after the transfiguration Jesus said of himself at Matthew 17:11, “Elijah is coming and will come and restore all things”. What things are in need of restoration, well the answer to that would be everything that needs to be brought back to how God intended it to be here on earth when he placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Nothing more nothing less.
Jesus disciples preached the same message as Jesus, at Acts 3: 21-26 the apostle Peter addressing the crowds said here in part, heaven would receive Jesus until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke from the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient times. Then mentions prophets like Moses, Samuel and the covenant God made with Abraham, and continues by saying how through this promise all of the families of the earth shall be blessed. Well there, I think we have it! Just turn to any of these prophesies regarding the promise of the kingdom starting from Abraham, Moses, Isaac Jacob and all of the other prophets particularly Isiah you will see the promises are all about the good life here on earth. Isiah 35:5-6, the eyes of the blind will be opened and the lame will leap, Isiah 25: 6-8, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, death no more and fine wine of course! This is a direct connection between what Jesus spoke about, and Jesus disciples preached about. A virtual mountain of evidence regarding the location of the kingdom promises, literally filling the earth!
In Daniel chapter 2 king Nebuchadnezzar sees an immense image of different metals, Daniel interprets the dream for him and for us today which is about Kingdom power. Chapter 2:44 Daniel describes how the God of heaven (heavenly kingdom as pictured by the stone cut out of the mountain without hands) will set up a Kingdom that will destroy all of the kingdoms on earth to be replaced by his kingdom. Daniel 2:35 concludes by saying this stone that struck the statue, it too became a great mountain and filled, (and here we have it) the earth! Not heaven. The stone from heaven that becomes a mountain is referenced to heaven only as its source. The cause and source is heavenly the effect is here on earth.
Acts 1:6 on this occasion after Jesus was resurrected having appeared many tines to his disciples gathered together they asked him. Lord is it at this time you are restoring the kingdom to Israel? The GB often uses this account as an out for their many failed ideas about things, but the disciples did not get anything woefully wrong here the just wanted to know about the timing not about the location! In answer to their question Jesus did not discuss the location only the timing of the establishment fully here on earth. They were not to know of the times and seasons. (This would be left up to Russell and Rutherford and others to determine we would be led to believe).
Again on the Mount of Olives at Matthew 24:3 and in the parallel accounts in Luke 21; Jesus disciples asked him about the timing and about any sign as to the timing not about any location, when Jesus will return to fully establish the Kingdom and restore all things and his disciples will start ruling together with Jesus. Again Jesus could have corrected them and mentioned something about the location but rather again he replied in terms of timing not the location.
Many of Jesus parables were about the timing of his return to restore all things, the parable of the King who left to a distant country and returned much later, the wise virgins etc. Much about timing not about location as this was already an accepted fact for Jewish people who worshiped Jehovah and new what the prophets said, and this is what rightly they would be expecting.
It is also helpful for what it is worth to consider what the early Christians believed, we can have some insight by considering the following.
I have cut and pasted below what some early “Church Fathers” said of the early Christians, very close to the time, note how these “Church Fathers” already influenced heavily with Greek philosophy, which was all about the soul leaving the body for the ultimate spiritual destination and spiritual existence mocked the beliefs of the early Christians, which was all about the earthly promises in the Hebrew scriptures, and obviously what Jesus and the Apostles taught. These people influenced by Greek philosophy thought they had a higher appreciation of what the scriptures really taught. They hijacked the kingdom hope and distorted it with Greek philosophy. Considering earthly life as banal and could not possibly be a Godly reward. Yep this symbolic typical antitypical thing got started right from the geco!!! Read on.
Gaius (early second century)
“But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy of the Scriptures of God, he asserts, with the purpose of deceiving men, that there is to be a period of a thousand years5 for marriage festivals.” (H.E. 3.28.2)
Origen (early third century)
Certain persons, then, refusing the labour of thinking, and adopting a superficial view of the letter of the law, and yielding rather in some measure to the indulgence of their own desires and lusts, being disciples of the letter alone, are of opinion that the fulfilment of the promises of the future are to be looked for in bodily pleasure and luxury; and therefore they especially desire to have again, after the resurrection, such bodily structures as may never be without the power of eating, and drinking, and performing all the functions of flesh and blood (De Princip. 2.11.2)
“And even as those who because of the fact that they do not interpret the prophecies allegorically suppose (that) after the resurrection we will eat and drink bodily food and drink, since also the words of the prophetic writings embrace such as these, so also what has been written concerning marriages of both men and women, keeping to the literal and supposing (that) we will take part in intercourse then, on account of which it is not even possible to have time for prayer when being in (a state of) defilement and uncleanness partaking in sexual pleasures.” (Commentary on Matthew 17.35)
Dionysius (mid third century)
“For the doctrine which he [Cerinthus] taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion; that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace.” (H.E. 7.25.3)
Well I better pause here I hope I have provided additional support to the idea that the kingdom promises are to be realised here on planet earth, as I need to work further on my response to Meletis offering.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 09:56:31
Thank you for these additional proofs, Alithia. I look forward to your next post.
Reply by Devora on 2018-05-27 08:12:48
Alithia,agreed.
Our Earth--with created Man/Woman,"Very!good"..
made for ever-fascinating
contemplations;studies;made in all it's unique!Beauties(this does not discount other galaxies/planets/life)it will be so,"New".
The Issue began on earth=settled on earth.
Earth is the subject-Focus of many-
outside of our current state as Homo Sapiens,Man.
"All eyes" are intently
observing this Drama,this situation..to the Finale.
We have been already shown in the Bible-the outcome,yet,
our faith will be tested to our limits,"until (our)relief comes".
Let us fortify ourselves here,now,while we can,by "building upon(our)most holy faith."As said on here already,in Love.
I am keenly and painfully aware of things ahead,and don't want 1 single Soul-whatever level of faith they possess-to become shocked;astounded,'caught unawares' by "the things coming upon the inhabited earth,for the Powers of the heavens will be shaken".
Comment by Vox Ratio on 2018-05-25 09:56:46
Hi Meleti,
Thank you for another fine addition to your video library. If I may, I'd like to offer a few more musings that might be amenable to your own.
To be sure, the new creation is something altogether different from anything that has preceded it. These ones are the only beings in God's order who have been approved of straddling the divide between the physical (PSUCHIKOS) and the spiritual (PNEUMATIKOS); and while doing this now in a state of decay, they have also been promised to do this in a state of glorious power. In fact, this state of glory will be an existence that is invariably like that of their master – for they have all been promised a body like his (cf. 1 Cor. 15:42ff; 1 Jo. 3:2). Still, why have a body clothed with power just like Christ if they cannot exist in the state that he possesses? After all, is he not the one spoken of as being "out of heaven" (1 Cor. 15:47)? What's more, why give a spiritual body in the likeness of Christ to the new creation if these ones will only ever serve within a physical world? Of course, these are only questions and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer. All the same, if such questioning is permissible then it seems to me that there could be a way to resolve this quandary (albeit speculatively).
Because of following the lie, purely spiritual beings unjustly sought to clothe themselves with flesh and in doing so corrupted themselves and the world that is. What was once holy became something debased (Jud. 1:6). Nevertheless, as if to demonstrate the wretchedness of creating something new in defiance of God, God himself has seen fit to show the cosmos that only he can take what was once debased and fashion it into something holy and new – to wit, a new creation.
Thus, because of following the truth, purely fleshly beings will justly be clothed with the spiritual and in doing so will purify themselves and the world to come. This new creation will be freely given that which fallen spirit creatures desired to steal for themselves – namely, the privilege of traversing both the physical and the spiritual worlds. For instance, there is evidence that the saints are in heaven with Jesus when he brings down judgement upon a fallen world (Rev. 19:14), and it might just be the case that a spiritual body is necessary for the saints to effect retributive justice upon the fallen angels (1 Cor. 6:3, Rom. 16:20).
In any case, while God's creation initiated the fall, God's creation will also inaugurate the restoration.
Truly, eye has not seen... (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9a)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 11:11:00
Nicely put, Vox Ratio. I always enjoy your insights.
Reply by Devora on 2018-05-27 07:45:22
Vox,Thank You Brother..on your thoughts here,please refer to my post earlier.
I do love your reasonings on those Scriptures.
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 17:34:53
Rev 3:10 also supports your position Vox Ratio as well as many other scriptures concerning the rapture, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, some who were people that will exist as beings seeing God, the church being with Jesus not just for a time (as the scriptures just speak of the 1000 year reign of the kingdom) but there is no mention of the church departing from Jesus after that. Chtist prepares a place for us so that wherever he is existing we will be (ie the analogy of marriage), etc
Reply by Dan Adams on 2018-05-28 13:15:21
Wow. I love your thought process here. Fascinating stuff to ponder.
Comment by Dan Adams on 2018-05-25 13:32:24
This article is so full of interesting analogies and great points that I couldn’t begin to comment on them all. In my studies with a JW I’ve been thinking a lot about where people end up, heaven vs. earth, etc. Lately I’ve been thinking about it in terms of “what” heaven is, vs. “where” heaven is.
The timing of this article is interesting because in my last Bible study, the idea of the “sacred secret” mentioned by Meleti was discussed at length, but in the context of marriage. That’s because we’re on the chapter about family life in the “What Does the Bible Really Teach” booklet. So in Ephesians 5:28-33 we read:
In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation, because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh.” This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking about Christ and the congregation. Nevertheless, each one of you must love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.
Notice the verse about the “sacred secret”? Obviously the point of the Bible study was to illustrate how husbands and wives should relate to one another. But what does Paul mean when he speaks about two becoming one flesh in reference to Christ and the congregation? This is what I asked my study leader. So we followed the sacred secret trail to several other verses. Eph. 1:9-10 speaks of the secret in terms of bringing everything in heaven and earth into union with Christ. Col. 1:27 says the sacred secret is Christ in union with us. And Eph. 3:5-6 emphasizes that people of the nations (the other sheep?) are included in this promise.
So then I asked, if scripture instructs husbands on how to love their wives based on how Christ loved the congregation, could you say the opposite is also true? Meaning, could you consider that marriage was created to give us a glimpse of what our destiny in Christ is all about? Because another scripture we read was Eph. 1:4, which says we were chosen to be in union with Christ *before* the founding of the world, and Eph. 3:10 speaks about the secret being an “eternal purpose”.
Okay, well at this point I was told how nice it was that I think so deeply on scriptural matters but we really need to get back to the original purpose of creation, which was all about us filling the earth and Jehovah’s government, etc. But for whatever reason I haven’t been able to stop thinking about this. I mean, in a general sense you could say that all of creation points to the beauty of Jehovah and gives knowledge of Him. But there are many things in the old testament scriptures that are given precisely for the purpose of pointing forward to Christ. So can you say this is also true of marriage?
Now, here is what I’ve been pondering as it relates to Meleti’s great post. If it’s true that we were chosen to be in union with Christ before the founding of the world, and Paul compares this union to the “one flesh” union of husband and wife, then it seems natural to conclude that we were created with a supernatural end in mind. Because otherwise how can something of human nature be united in “one flesh” with something of a heavenly nature? Now, do I think this does away with Jehovah’s original intent for creating mankind, and for the purpose of this earth? No, not at all. But I do wonder if this shines light on the reason that Jesus spoke of those in the resurrection as neither marrying nor being given in marriage. This is what has me thinking in terms of heaven being more of a “what” rather than a “where”. As in, heaven is our reward, and that reward is union with Christ. It’s the one flesh union that Christ has with his bride, his congregation. So if our ultimate happiness is determined by who we spend eternity with, then it’s one more thing that takes the worry out of where that happens to be.
Sorry for the lengthy post. You all are my only outlet for such musings.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-25 14:30:34
Hello Dan, and welcome.
I don't recall seeing posts from you before. If you are new here, I hope you will come back.
You have an interesting perspective on Ephesians 5:28-33. Based on your comments, allow me to offer my take on this.
I believe the main point of Ephesians was to show the depth of Christ's love for the congregation, rather than trying to show some literal equivalence of the two types of relationships. It is about feelings, not about two (or more) persons becoming one flesh.
Further, in the case of husband and wife, the two are one flesh only metaphorically, in regard to marital relations and being in harmony of purpose as a couple.
You asked, "But what does Paul mean when he speaks about two becoming one flesh in reference to Christ and the congregation?" But, he doesn't speak of that. Paul has intertwined two concepts in a single verse. The only thing tying them together is the love of Christ for the congregation vs. the love of a man for his wife. I believe you have misunderstood the intent of this verse.
It is true that the scriptures discuss how approved members of the Christian congregation would be "chosen to be in union with Christ before the founding of the world". Of course, since Christians must be faithful until death, that "choosing" was not for any particular individuals, but was a general provision under the Christian arrangement, which some would be found worthy of and others not. But, what does "union with Christ" mean? It cannot mean physical adjacency in heaven. Why not? Because Christ said prior to his ascension to heaven that he would be with his followers until the conclusion of the system of things. His followers would remain on earth while he was in heaven, and yet he was WITH them. This shows that it is not necessary for Christians to be in heaven to be WITH Christ. They are simply united in purpose, even though physically separated.
You also asked, "But I do wonder if this shines light on the reason that Jesus spoke of those in the resurrection as neither marrying nor being given in marriage." Elsewhere, Jesus also says that resurrected ones are "like angels in heaven". He doesn't say they will be IN heaven or BE angels - only that they would be LIKE angels, creatures that ARE in heaven.
Given the theme of Meleti's article, let us assume that those who are resurrected will receive life on earth, and no where else. If so, what could these verses mean? Here is my take on it:
The key to this is 1 Corinthians 7:39: "A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep in death, she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in the Lord."
The critical word here is "bound". Here, if the husband dies, the wife is not "bound" any more. But, if the wife is not bound, neither is the husband, is he? Of course, for the present, that part is not as relevant, since the husband has died, and so is not alive to be bound in the first place. But the point is, if the marriage bonds are broken, they are broken for both.
Thus, when two formerly married people are resurrected, they are not bound in marriage to each other any more AT THE TIME THEY ARE FIRST RESURRECTED. Perhaps many, even most, formerly married people would choose to remarry each other, but they would not be required to. Therefore, when initially raised to life, neither would be treated as if they had been given in marriage to each other - NOT YET. Everyone who is resurrected is resurrected as a single, unmarried person.
In what way would that make those two humans on earth "like" angels? Simply that angels have no personal relationships with each other that are comparable to being married as a husband and wife. Perhaps angels are "friends" with each other, but the scriptures give no evidence that they actually have such friendships, much less that it went any further or any more personally than that.
In the same way, newly resurrected ones would have no pre-existing marital commitments that carried over from their former life. Any relationship they entered into after resurrection they would have to choose at that time.Reply by Dan Adams on 2018-05-28 12:49:21
Robert, thanks for the welcome. I’ve posted here just a couple times before. By way of introduction, I’m Catholic, raised Protestant, and currently studying with JW. In response to some of your thoughts, yes, I can see how the spousal one flesh union is metaphorical. I’m just following my thoughts down the rabbit hole and pondering how the metaphor relates to us as the bride of Christ.
Your explanation of unity is helpful for me in understanding some of our underlying differences in belief, coming from different backgrounds, and how they affect the way we read scripture. What I hear you saying is that unity is to be thought of, in part, as being united in harmony and purpose, and I would never have thought of this as an explanation for how it is that Christ is still “with” us even though he ascended into heaven. I recall now from my Bible study that this “unity of purpose” is also how the oneness of Christ and Jehovah are explained. But back to the spousal one flesh unity, I’m curious what you would take Paul to mean 1 Cor. 6:16 when he uses the same one flesh concept in his admonishment against prostitution?
I’m also wondering if you can clarify for me your understanding of marriage in the resurrection. I understand the part about death dissolving the marriage bond, and those newly resurrected not being currently bound to anyone. Do you mean then, that the words “neither marry nor are given in marriage” apply only to the initial moment of resurrection? And our likeness to the angels in heaven as only a metaphor for our temporary state of being unmarried (when newly resurrected)? I think this is a concept I am far from comprehending.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-25 15:07:59
Hi Dan,
Interesting thoughts! Thank you for that. One thing that might have an impact on your conclusions is understanding when the founding of the world occurred, since the choosing occurs prior to that. The word is katabolé and according to Strong's Concordance means: "(a) foundation, (b) depositing, sowing, deposit, technically used of the act of conception." So it would be reasonable to assume that the founding of the world refers to the "world of Mankind" which was founded with the conception of the first man, Cain. So before the first human was conceived through procreation, Jehovah has purposed for the salvation of humankind via the Christ.Reply by Dan Adams on 2018-05-28 13:09:26
Meleti – Sounds like I have quite a lot more to think about! Thanks for the insight on the word katabole. To be honest, it's not yet reasonable in my mind to conclude that the founding of the world refers to the world once Cain was conceived vs. the creation of the earth in general. However certain pieces of the puzzle would certainly come together in support of a particular viewpoint if that were true.
This reminds me of the theological discussion in medieval times over whether or not Christ would have come as a man had man not sinned. Did he only come as ransom for our sin? Or, if creation is in, through, and for Christ, is there something about our eternal destiny that found fulfillment in Christ taking on our human nature? Of course one of the underlying assumptions in even discussing the matter is the belief that Christ retained something of his humanity after being resurrected, and I think I understand correctly that JW do not share this belief.
At any rate, thanks for your insight. Much appreciated!
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-25 23:26:51
We can appreciate why the means God uses to save mankind was referred to as a secret, because it was hidden for thousands of years. And it was sacred because it was a secret holy God chose to keep. The exact means God would use to save mankind (that secret) was revealed much later through Christ, his apostles, and holy spirit. It didn't really start to get clearly understood until holy spirit fell on Christ's disciples. For instance, the Jews had no idea how God would go about including everyone who was not a Jew in his plan for salvation. They knew the Bible claimed God would set up a kingdom to rule the world, per Daniel. But, how would the gentile population fit in? That didn't become clear until after Peter used the keys of the kingdom. That's the reason some Jewish Christians wanted to enforce Jewish law. Would all saved people need to be Jews? After all the savior Christ was a Jew, wasn't he? And many early Christians still believed the law was instrumental in leading people to salvation. When in fact the law was not given for that purpose. Its purpose was really to convict men of their sinful nature, and only lead them to salvation by showing people they needed a savior, that they could never be righteousness enough in themselves for God to save them.
God went sharing his plan to save mankind in bits and pieces primarily first to Jewish people, over thousands of years. During those thousands of years God's sacred secret (the means God would use to save mankind) was kept from all men, even the Jews. Different parts of that secret were revealed over the years though. For instance, the ancient Jews knew of a coming messiah to save them, but exactly what he would save them to they didn't know. (Free us from Roman rule some thought). Nor did they understand how the messiah would save them. Thus Jews killed their messiah in ignorance because of expecting their messiah to come as something else, and do something else. And what about their idea of gentiles? They had no idea how God planned to save the gentiles. Those answers, and other answers about this marvelous plan of God are part of that sacred secret. God foresaw salvation from before the world; but God kept the answers to that a secret for thousands of years.
join in the discussionReply by Dajo on 2018-05-25 23:55:34
Good afternoon Messenger,
you make some interesting points. Some of the things you raise are in other articles on this site. Have you read them? Or another forum some here used to discuss things - including points you raise is this one discussthetruth.comReply by messenger on 2018-05-26 17:21:37
Good afternoon Dajo,
A little while ago I read some older articles here on Salvation. I believe Eric wrote those and there were six of them. I also read a couple other articles from this site, one on Last Days, and another on Evolution. Even though all those articles were older ones I posted comments in the comments section.
A few years ago I went to the Kingdom Hall, as everyone was invited to hear a televised zone talk delivered to the USA area. In that presentation Anthony Morris made some assertions that clearly are unscriptural. To me the most troubling one is when he spoke for some time teaching that all baptized JW brothers 21 years of age or older who are not appointed to a position of ministerial servant or higher by the Watchtower Society are not proper candidates for sisters to consider when seeking marriage mates. Prior to this I knew there was a problem with some elders, and some false teachings from WT. For instance, I remember being in the meeting once and reading in a publication, possibly a KM, that Christians who seek higher education are not exemplary Christians. The Anthony Morris speech, however, made me give serious thought to what WT was teaching us, and what WT is (is it apostate?). I read some other sites: JW Struggle, JW facts, JW Survey, Ray Franz's books. God led me to realize where I was and the falsehood I had learned. I just recently came here, after being invited several times to do so by one of the commenters on JW Survey. I cannot remember her name. But I remember the commenter is female, and is a very gracious person. She may be using a different name here.
Join the discussionReply by Dajo on 2018-05-26 21:53:13
Morning Messenger,
thank you for helping me to understand your position some more. I can say that I can fully relate to your background as it is similar to mine and I guess many here.
It is really edifying to be able to discuss things such as these. As for myself, I read avidly, however am unable to articulate things and make comments to the degree some do here. I really deem it a privilege to have access to so many Christ like minds.Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 01:22:48
Remember love builds up while knowledge puffs up? And during the brief time I have been here your comments appear to be among the most loving. And I found your response to Alithia to be one of the most accurate and, it was as well expressed as any here. I look forward to our meeting.
Reply by Devora on 2018-05-27 07:34:49
Dear Messenger..Welcome!
Yes it's me you kindly-referred to,as the one telling you about this Site.(My name is the same except here its in the Hebrew).
Isn't it so refreshing;Life-affirming,to express yourself here with beautiful Christian freedom--not bound by organized religion's oppressive, man-ruled partly-erroneous dogma and doctrines?Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 16:39:29
Devorah,
Thank you for your warm welcome. Like before you are very kind. I look forward to meeting you in person one day.Reply by Devora on 2018-05-27 18:55:21
Likewise!Messenger..
and likewise,with All here..
The glories to be realized in-full,with Christ,defy!our current-incomplete-glimpses..
The Answers will Be,in that future.He said"In that day you will ask me no question at all".
So I look forward,lonely but keenly(personally striving "in mastering that song",as in Revelation)to becoming, with all called and chosen..through eternity..
as perfected-reflections
of The Supreme One..all
to His/His Son's glory;
as testaments,to Love.
But..
"meanwhile-tho for a little while..grieved by various trials..the tested quality of(our)faith"is key.
And Eric/Meliti has,in his love also of others;his abilities,
given us all here,a most
valuable,Christian open
discussion Site...
May we all uphold his
Site's stated intents and protocols..based on God's Word. Brothers,Sisters,who are seeking the Spirit..may that be displayed,so others-incoming here will find true Christian
refreshments;a free interchange of mutual-encouragements.
"Let All your affairs take place with Love".
P.S.
Off-topic here,but
perhaps-(if I'm still alive,here,etc!(Book of James 4:13-15)-it would be wonderful to join a group of you(in the Northeast U.S./few hours from Toronto)for 2019's Memorial of our Lord?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 23:36:49
We already have a group that meets in Toronto for the Memorial. It would be great to extend that next year.
Reply by Devora on 2018-05-28 09:27:19
Eric,Thank You,(and for this article too),my new passport will be ready before then!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-28 11:41:35
As we get near the date, remind me of this. My memory is one of my weak points, so I rely on friends to keep me on track with arrangements like this. ;)
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-26 00:24:07
There is no original purpose of God, and then another adjusted purpose of his after sin entered the world. That's an idea WT used to teach, but I believe WT might have realized that was untrue after teaching it for decades. God foresees all things. It does not make sense God chooses to look into the future of some things while he fails to look into the eventuality of the most important things (which is still a current WT teaching that lacks truth). One of those important things of God would have to be God's creation. Because all that God has revealed to us entails information about himself and his creation. He's looked into the eventuality of his creation. And that eventuality includes everything along the way, including sin, and what he would chose to do about it.
Also, God's purposes always prevail (Isaiah 55). So what does that mean with respect to people living on Earth? It means the Earth will be populated by Adam's offspring, bringing other creatures on Earth into subjection, and bringing about paradisiac conditions on the entire Earth. The sacred secret reveals how God and Christ will be instrumental in helping mankind do that. God and Christ are in fact the ones who really bring that about, not man. Man just helps them.
One of the means God uses to do that is Christ. Another means is the other son's of God's kingdom. Together they make up the kingdom of God that, with mankind, bring this purpose about. Those on Earth at that time who are people live on Earth to fulfill the statements God made to Adam (fill the Earth and subdue it...). Those that make up the kingdom are not people in the same way we would not consider God and Christ people. Those instead have a nature similar to God and Christ but are of an inferior nature. For God and Christ are unique beings. These others are born again as something different from men. Holy spirit is just a token guarantee, an assurance of what their birth to something different will be, a new kind of creature with the ability to go to different places (dimensions men cannot enter into). Those will, for a period at least, come down to the Earth from where their new nature has taken them. Some of us have already seen it. God still reveals some things to some people through personal contact. In the last days God has poured out his spirit on all kinds of flesh, and dreams and visions some see from God.(Joel 2:28 also see Peters statement in Acts with the pouring out of holy spirit). The last days continue to last ever since Christ's death, and so does the pouring out of God's spirit, and God's personal contacts with some people on Earth through it.
The most important thing is belief. That means trusting God. If you do that you will prevail. You will live. Christ and God will see to that. You can live forever, and where ever that is for you, you will be at peace. There will be no sadness or worries. God has already shown that to some people.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 13:45:42
You say, “God foresees all things.” It is upon this premise that many in understanding of God is made. The premise is that God cannot fail to know all things. In fact, to not know something is viewed as a failure, a limitation of divine power. This understanding of God’s power makes Jehovah a slave to his abilities. God cannot choose to not look into something, because he must look into it whether he wants to or not. I think this is the fundamental flaw in the line of reasoning many assume when the presume to understand omniscience.
If Jehovah wishes to create a being with free will and wishes not to predestine the choice that being will make by foreknowing that choice, who are we to say, “No, Lord, you cannot do that. Our understanding of your all-knowingness this will not permit it.”
Now this may happen to be a belief that the Watchtower has had, but just because they had a belief doesn’t qualify it is falsehood. Not everything that they have taught is false. That can be said for any Christian religion. Indeed, even non-Christian religions have truth intermixed with falsehood.Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 16:20:50
Of course God can and does do what he wants to. He is God. But just because he can does not mean he does. Your own reasoning kills your argument, or at the minimum fails to support it. God does not have to decide not to look into all things just because he can. God and his son choose the heavenly church because they have looked into all things and know who it is safe to trust with immortality, knowing what these will l do with it. God tells men future events not merely by making those happen, his looking into all things is also used. And with supreme intelligence he surely looked into his creation to see its development. How he does so is what I would like to know. But being able to travel through time or exist in more than one time is probable. He probably exists outside of time and outside of his creation also.
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 16:31:51
Also looking into ones future has nothing to do with predestination when God does not take an active part to change their future. God did though and does with some, that is predestined their futures (examples David, and those forming the kingdom).
Comment by LaRhonda T. on 2018-05-25 21:01:56
I watched the video twice and copied down al the Scriptures. This is how the Bible should be taught. Let the Bible explain itself, free from all the various doctrinal gobbledygoop! I thank you from the bottom of my heart Bro. Wilson. For the first time in a long time, my husband actually sat and listened and said, that for the first time, he feels that someone has explained the Scriptures to him in a way that he can understand. There are still some points that we are not sure of, but now we have the tools to sit, read, study and above all pray for guidance free from the Watchtower's influence. RIGHT HERE ON THE EARTH!!!! JESUS WILL RULE RIGHT HERE ON THE EARTH!! WE WILL BE LIKE JESUS!!! No we, don't fully understand, but careful reading and banishing all of the various arms of Christendom, (Including the witlesses, uh, I mean witnesses) will help us go far in our understanding of the Scriptures. Take care and be blessed!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 11:39:38
:) "witlesses". Gave me a chuckle.
Comment by Dajo on 2018-05-25 23:19:42
Thanks Meleti,
I've often wondered what heaven, heavens and heavenly really mean/are etc. The scripture “..eye has not seen, ear has not heard... nor come into the heart” 1 Cor 2:9 does give pause for thought.
As you said using the illustration about a choosing a companion, well imagine having God pick one out for us! Yes we'd wonder. We'd fantasize, imagine. I would anyway! I'd be so excited – I wonder if she's blond, brunette? Asian Mmm, yes please. What about like a deep dark Russian, is she a cut Swede …. anyway I digress. My point being – we know we are getting something so we'll trust God on this one – why shouldn't we. He promised us Jesus and we got him!
Even ungodly humans acknowledge that we, as humans, don't fully realize our full potential. Now and then we hear of savants and other types of people that buck the trend of normal human thinking - and even sometimes in a physical sense. Who knows what's in store for us spiritually? … eye has not seen .. yet!
I have felt for a long time to only put “A Place” on the description (as you aptly say, Location) on the terms heaven, heavens and heavenly is really quite inadequate and thankfully 1 Cor 2:9 allows for oh so so much more! Jesus spoke of RE creation, renewal. It is so exciting and something else that it is – it is very very faith strengthening.
To quote from the article:
So, the first reason for us not to worry about the nature of our reward involves faith in God. If we really have faith that Jehovah is supremely good and infinitely wise and overwhelmingly abundant in his love for us and his desire to make us happy, then we will leave the rewarding in his hands, confident that whatever it turns out to be will be a delight beyond anything we can imagine.
One thing I felt when I made my break nearly 2 years ago now was a lot of insecurity. But now that is no more. By reading and bible study with the WT spectacles removed things are definitely improving and I now have a stronger faith than being decades in the organization.
I have watched the video and have now read the article and the one on the other sheep again and enjoy all the comments here.
Appreciate this resource. Thanks again Meleti.
Comment by Alithia on 2018-05-26 07:50:57
Dear Meleti, I take issue with statements and your understanding with regards to what the scriptures teach about “faith”. Also your analyses of Hebrews 11:1 and a number of statements such as the following, “we cannot know the full reality of the reward which is why we need faith, faith is not about knowing”, along with a number of different analogies and bible stories to make your point.”
It never ceases to amaze me, as it probably would with most that come to this site, how our reading and understanding of scripture has often turned out (after discovering the truth), to be affected by deeply entrenched preconceived ideas, an example could be what the biblical term apostasy means to one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and what the true biblical meaning of Apostasy means. With an incorrect premise and understanding of this word JWs will use this as a platform to develop further erroneous teachings and ideas. Therefore I am sure you will agree it is important when developing an argument to begin with a premise that is both valid and true.
One such prime example is what the scriptures teach about faith, as found at Hebrews 11:1.
I will discuss the historical background as to how the religious use of the word faith has developed to mean today something very different from its original intended use and understanding due to translation inadequacies, and the developing distorted religious beliefs of the prevailing Church at the time which was the Catholic Church. Beliefs and understanding absorbed and understood by most Churches and JWs today.
To begin with I have pasted the dictionary definition below which describes the common understanding of how faith is understood in a secular and in a religious sense.
1.complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
In the New Testament, the English word for “faith” comes from the Greek word; Pistis. The word is mentioned together with such other personifications as Elpis (Hope), a quick look up in the JW Interlinear can confirm this, see the entire chapter of Hebrews 11. Check out hope and faith.
I would like to explain why “trust” is a much better English translation of the Greek word pistis than “faith” is, as a result of religious influences and also to show that “faith” is misunderstood and misused.
There is a lot of confusion among Christians about faith, so let’s become clear on what it is.
The early Christians would have readily perceived the meaning of pistis as “trust” or “confidence,” and that meaning can be easily confirmed by checking any good biblical lexicon or Bible dictionary. For example, pistis has been defined as:
• “With the predominant idea of trust (or confidence)” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament);
• “Firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
• “Firm persuasion” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W. Bullinger).
• “State of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted; trust, confidence” (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, W. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, 2000; usually abbreviated “BDAG”).
• “It is the attitude of complete trust in Christ...” (The New Bible Dictionary).
• “In the New Testament, ‘faith’ is used in a number of ways, but primarily with the meaning ‘trust’ or ‘confidence’ in God” (Hollman Bible Dictionary).
These few examples could be multiplied many times if you like jiggling around with Bible Hub etc, but the point should be clear: the biblical meaning of pistis in phrases like “pistis in God” is “trust.”
There are also numerous writings from the classical Greek times were this word “Pisti” is used, and from the context it can be deduced how it should be understood as per the references above.
As with many words that appear in the Christian Greek scriptures that were written in Common Greek (Koine Greek, common 2000 years ago), many are still in regular use today and are understood in the same way, “pisti” being one of them. Being of Greek background and able to read and write Greek I can attest to the common and everyday use of this word still, as defined in the reference works above. A Greek person today may describe a mate as pistos, “faithful” or that they believe and trust them, “pistevou”, similar to the meaning of the root word “Pisti” 2000 years ago.
As one can see from the ancient and still prevailing use of the Greek word Pisti, there is little room for the suggestion that faith or more accurately Pisti is anything less than 100% conviction based on the available facts of the matter.
One cannot say they have Pisti if at the same time they feel, or think they are left “hanging in the air” not sure about things or are obscure, or are in any doubt about what their trust is placed in. To say you have pisti and not be sure is a self defeating statement.
The definitions and the usage as in the day do not allow for this.
I will develop this point further in Hebrews chapter 11 for further discussion around how JWs currently understand this, and how it would have been understood by early Christians that Paul wrote to.
Hebrews 11:1 defines what pistis is:
“Now faith [pistis] is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” (NIV2011).
The NASB uses slightly different vocabulary but gives the same message: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
The NWT this way, “Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.
So the Bible itself defines pistis as assurance or confidence in something and a good way to express that in English is by the word “trust.”
That something is given here as the hope for all Christians.
“Trust” is simple to understand. The lexical sources listed above defined it when they defined pistis: it is confidence, a firm persuasion, a conviction based on the reliability, or trustworthiness, of the person or thing that is trusted.
Also, trust has to have an object; something that is trusted. The human mind cannot “just trust.” We have to trust something. It can be God, our spouse, our friend, or even that the sun will come up tomorrow, but trust requires an object; we have to trust some trustworthy thing.
To say you have trust in something yet be unsure, unclear or not be fully cognizant in any way is a self-defeating statement!
This is not logical or reasonable.
Therefore it seems inexplicable to me that the early Christians who were encouraged to have “Pisti” in the hope before them would be vague or have only an obscure or partial vision of what many ultimately would sacrifice their lives for!
We cannot and should not imagine God would require that of anyone. Yet many would have us believe that this is a requirement of God in fact we could not please him well otherwise.
Christians were exhorted to keep their eyes on the prize, make sure of all things, test the faith, how could they do this if they did not have the complete picture. They were to have “Pisti”. You could not do any of the above or even want to unless you had “Pisti to begin with! “Pisti” as defined above not as explained by many today.
To further explain why having the notion that to please God well requires a degree of not knowing the full reality of the reward is mistaken, it is good to consider how the word faith and the understanding of the word in its current form came to us.
Where the Word “Faith” Came From
It is easy to see why pistis, which means “trust” or “confidence,” came to be translated “faith” in our English Bibles. When the New Testament was translated into Latin, the Latin word fides (pronounced feeˈ-dace), which means “trust,” was often used to translate the Greek word pistis. And fides was a good translation because just as the Greek word pistis meant “trust, confidence,” so did the Latin word fides. As the English language developed many centuries later, the Latin word fides became the root of the English word “faith” (also “fidelity,” “fiduciary,” etc.).
“Take it in faith, some things are a mystery” is Not Biblical
This is still a common saying of the clergy of the Greek Orthodox Church, “pisteve kai mi erevna”. Loosely translated as believe and do not question. This is not biblical. Why not? Because we cannot make ourselves trust something that we do not understand. This concept is not well understood. The statement “take it by faith” has been taught throughout Christianity for centuries, but it never occurs in the Bible and is not a biblical concept.
Continuing to today, translating pistis as “faith” instead of “trust” has obscured the simple truth that we don’t trust what we don’t understand. Most people are not really sure of what “faith” is, so they accept the Church teaching that they can have faith in something they don’t understand. We can “accept” something and not argue about it even if we don’t understand it, but “accepting” something is not “trust.”
Can you start to see something sinister and familiar in this? Does it start to smell strongly of something we all had to contend with and submit to even when in our bones we knew there was no reason to believe??? Ala Jehovah will reveal it to us in time, just have faith for now that the slave will clarify the matter or do not worry about it have faith in the Org!
“Faith” Changed Meaning
We have seen that the biblical meaning of the Greek word pistis is “trust,” but that is not its primary meaning “on the street” today. Many Christians, and most non-Christians, think “faith” means “firm belief in something for which there is no proof” (Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, 2004). Often that definition has been used to ridicule Christians, and admittedly, “believing in something for which there is no proof” seems like a questionable practice. So how did that non-biblical definition of “faith” develop?
Over the centuries, doctrines were brought into Christianity that were not biblically sound, and some that were not even logical. When those doctrines were questioned, since there was no proper biblical answer, the answer often given by the church authorities was simply, “take it by faith.” Sadly, the history of the Christian Church, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, is replete with examples of Christians who were pressured or tortured (Including disfellowshipping by JWs) into taking things “by faith” that did not make sense to them. Thus, over time, “faith” changed meanings. It came to mean belief in something for which there is no proof.
The average Christian is not enough of a linguist to know that the commonly accepted current definition of faith is not the actual biblical definition of the Greek and Latin text, so they wrongly think that “belief in something for which there is no proof” is a biblical definition of “faith.”
Now here is the real kicker and you better slow down here and try to join the dots. Check out this scripture at James 2:19 NWT or any other translation and do a check on the original Greek with the Kingdom Interlinear if handy or any Greek English Interlinear on Bible Hub or E-Sword and look where the word for “faith Pisti”, occurs.
Despite your translation on hand which may use the word believe or similar note the original Greek word for believe or faith etc.
And see that if you still have the current and common understanding of what faith is, then it is the one and same as the devil and the Demons!!!! Yep demons have the same faith or “Pisti” as us in Jehovah God!!!
There is no problem here with this. The devil and the demons are in no doubt about God in any way, they are fully persuaded and are 100% convinced about him in every way! More faith than many of us seem to want or understand.
What one will find though as James was trying to instruct was the resultant actions of this faith. What the demons do and how a Christian should respond arising from this faith would be and is very different obviously. James goes on to talk about acceptable works that could arise from this faith.
Hebrews chapter 11 is replete with the many pleasing acts of faith by those who had “Pisti” in Jehovah.
So Abel having this pisti evidenced this in some way by the sacrifice he brought to God, Noah built the Ark, Abraham left home and went to the promised land and offered up his son, Sarah gave birth to a son in her old age, Moses, Rahab etc, and etc, yet as Paul says they all died not having received the promises but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them!
I don’t know about you but I would not like to be sawn asunder unless I had full and implicit trust in what I could see very very clearly! You cannot be sawn asunder and have a better understanding as to why this may be the best option at a later time!
Many of us including myself spent (wasted) most of my life in an Org having the contemporary understanding of Faith!
Paul was here telling the brothers they needed to show faith in the promise as others before them had; the promises were such a given, he hardly mentioned it as they already knew very well what the Jewish people who became Christians could look forward to with the addition that they would also rule with Christ as Kings and Priests too. The restoration of all things, here on earth!
There is nothing magical or mysterious about trust. It is a very common and basic human experience, not one religion would have us believe is some esoterically based idea to suit their agenda.
To illustrate what Paul was instructing the Christians about with regards to faith in Hebrews chapter 11, consider the amazing story of Charles Blondin, a famous French tightrope walker.
Blondin's greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat. The crowd watched as Blondin carefully walked across pushing a wheel barrow. Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!
Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?" The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"
"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!
This unique story illustrates what faith actually is. The crowd watched these daring feats. They said they believed. But... their actions proved they truly did not believe. In the biblical sense. This is the same sense of what James was saying at James 2:19. What you say and what you do is telling!
Similarly, it is one thing for us to say we believe in God. Just like the Demons do! However, its true faith, the kind of faith that pleases God well when we believe God and put our faith and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. And try to imitate our master Jesus, demonstrating this by the works we choose to perform both spontaneously and by a heart filled and motivated by love.
The demons do not have this faith.
So from my perspective, according to the explanation of how faith works with our hope in your latest post Meleti,, I would be more inclined to have “pisti” and have a go in Blondins barrow, assured, convinced, trusting of getting to the other side safely, than dealing with the vagaries you have presented around the Kingdom hope.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-26 09:21:22
That is an excellent piece, Alithia. Trust is what it is all about. However, I believe we can have our trust in Jehovah despite not knowing the details.
Having said that, I am not clear what statements made by Meliti you have actually taken issue with. There can be nothing objectionable to being uncertain as to details of where the Kingdom is and how we will fit in. This does not affect trust in Jehovah, who has done nothing to undermine our trust in him.
Maybe I am being a bit slow today, so can you clarify what you are taking issue with ?
Can you explain.Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-27 03:51:41
Hello LJ you are right and i could not agree more! We can trust God fully in all things, including our salvation and where and how we will live when the Christ returns to fixar-up everything. Including the provision of at least one automatic washing machine for Warp Speed so she will feel at home and happy in the re-creation. But with this mind set we could say that about every thing scriptural that is not explicit, that requires some prayerful effort, humility and the willing desire to understand with wisdom?. Proverbs "Search as for hid treasure", has not been lost on me after having it drummed into me for 60 years!
We could be like the Evangelicals who say once saved always saved just have faith in Jesus and God and she'll be right mate. No need for any of the great effort put in already by ones like Tadua and Meleti and many more who have contributed on this subject.
The Jehovah will fix it all up mind set, wait and see, I will accept whatever could hardly be deemed "Loving God with all of you mind, heart and soul as the scriptures teach and endorsed by Jesus himself??? many are here including myself licking deep and nasty "wounds " for that very reason.
Of course there is no need for this discussion to "rage" in more intensity and duration than the California wild fires, but I am having fun with it searching the scriptures and listening to all of the comments. I hope no-one is offended I do not mean to be divisive or contradictory for the sake of it, or get any satisfaction or feel the need for any affirmation or validation from anyone's comments either. If anyone disagrees blast away, as the wise sage Maxwell Smart says, "And loving it".
And hey I did say I agreed with Meleti conclusions I just don,t agree how he got there. A few things in the middle that I see differently and by the feed back I am getting a likely-hood of being wrong of about 9 out of 10.Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-27 15:44:49
Yo mate- Warp Speed is a dude, not a lady...
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:45:40
Ha!
This is all hilarious.
I'm loving the openness and banter, and the serious stuff to some degree....but I'm also exhausted from reading all this talking!!!!
Thumbs up to you and yours WS. ?Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-28 22:26:01
Thanks Martha. You too?
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 09:55:50
I agree with LJ. What statements from Meleti do you have issue with?
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 17:06:46
That based on his understanding of faith we cannot expect to have a full and clear vision of what the hope for mankind in general is. Not meaning if we will have washing machines in paradise, only as to where the hope will be realized as here on earth or in heaven. I think the bible is clear. I take issue with meleti using the incorrect current general understanding and teaching on faith as being an incorrect premise on which he built his further proofs for his arguments.
therefore much of what he said resting on this foundation is false.
I will address in another post to clear up the haziness, hopefully this time I will not be as hazy as it seems from the responses!!!!!Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 20:23:22
If I can't have a washing machine in paradise- I'm out...
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:41:30
Absolutely!
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-26 10:41:25
Alithia, speaking from experience, I know that when someone writes a post as long as yours, it is very hard to absorb and comprehend. When you then want people to agree with your position, it's like asking them to agree with an encyclopedia. It is too much to ask. You need to make your point in about 1/10 the amount of words you used. Otherwise, all of your writing will have been in vain.
To briefly attempt to address your point (if I even understand it), I feel you have left out an important point about faith. You are ignoring the contextual meaning of the word. That is in fact how most word meanings are determined, especially for ancient languages. You could say, "look it up in the dictionary", but what did people do *before* there was a dictionary? What do dictionary *writers* do to write their dictionaries? They look at the context.
To me, the biblical context of "faith" has a very loud connotation, and it says, "respect".
Yes, demons might have "faith" in the sense of knowing God's existence and power, but do they respect Him? No. Abraham may, or may not, have understood the significance of what he was being asked, but he obeyed out of respect.
Consider Hebrews 11:7: "By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith."
Look at what the context shows us: Was it "faith" that drove Noah to build an ark? Was it "fear"? Godly or not, was it fear? No. It was because of RESPECT. In fact, if you go through the Bible, anywhere "faith" or "fear" are mentioned, try replacing the word in the passage with "respect" and re-read it. When you do that, it all makes perfect sense. Are we supposed to have "fear" of God? Or "fear" of a king? Aren't we really supposed to have RESPECT for them? Doesn't that make more sense?
If you have respect for someone, you would naturally have faith and trust in them, AS A CONSEQUENCE of having that respect.
Likewise, we ought to have faith in the Christian hope *because* of the respect we have for God and Christ. That respect will impel us to believe and trust that they have our best interests at heart, which is another way of saying that they love us.Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 17:00:41
Thanks for reading my post and taking the time to comment, but if you re-read my post you will notice it was all about taking into account the correct context. In addition to the current dictionary definition I added the numerous definitions by reputable scholars as relating from the biblical times and added secular writings from this period too, to help in my point about how the word faith is incorrectly understood today and how it should really be understood by Christians as it was in the time Paul wrote about it. When you mention respect i accept what you say and agree to a point about this word, however I was addressing the word Faith, and how Meleti used it in his discussion of the Christian reward/hope etc.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-26 10:49:19
One thing I don't particularly care for is the using of the NWT or any of the WT literature. It's all biased and really doesn't make any sense to be using it at all. If you want to get to the truth, use material that has truth not misleading, incorrect information. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like some here are trying to keep most of the JW doctrine and form a new belief with it.
Notice: I said some not all!Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 10:59:26
I don't think that's the case Psalmbee
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-26 11:12:37
I know that's the case Warp, it may not be recognizable to those still partially in, but in any case it is very true.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 13:29:56
This illustrates the value of the "thumbs down" option. Before, I would have just given you a thumbs down. Now, I said that I don't agree with you and the fun starts.
I would in a loving way remind you Psalmbee, that you tend to get judgmental about "still in" or "partially in" JW's. This coming from somebody who was "never in".
Please be careful with your judgements of people who have actually BEEN JW's.Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-26 18:38:37
Thank you for that reminder Warp Speed,and TY for "speaking up instead of thumbing down".Let's get clear on the "still ins". There is none here, simply because they are still in.they don't come here at all, or any other non sanctioned research sites, as per the GB.
If you're not 100% in the Org. then really you are not in at all, and I'm talking about baptized ones of course. Would you disagree with that?Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:41:01
Of course some "still ins" come here.
I was still in but questioning when I stumbled on Beroeans and it took me years to come to terms with what I was reading.... And see that I had been tricked by men into accepting doctrines that were false.
Not alL JWS follow the GBs orders to the letter. There are some who, having been taught to search for truth and hold to it in spite of all ridicule, are able to see through the silly rules and dare to question.
Psalmbee I really like your name, but I don't like it when you make assertions that are just your opinions.
Sometimes it seems to me that you're trying to start your own religion yourself.
As Warp Speed said, please don't assume that you know what people who have been or are still JWs are thinking, and please don't judge us. We've come out of that atmosphere and are very sensitive to any judgement or dogmatic statements. It's like an immunisation. We can spot it a mile off and throw it off.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-30 11:13:54
I get your last statement, Psalmbee, namely that if you are not 100% in, you are not in at all. On this site, the expression for many is Physically in, Mentally out (PIMO), which is about where quite a few are. There are plenty of Witnesses who are not 100% in, but they may not be visiting this or any other site. They have their own hang ups.
I was certainly in when I first visited this site, and am slowly drawing away. I am really not bothered whether JWs consider me in or not (but they have not kicked me out). I know where I am but a facade is necessary for the sake of friends and family. When the right boat comes along, I will jump on it (and this does not refer to some other religion).Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-30 21:33:58
LJ, you are a man with much wisdom, there is no denying that.
I know deep down there is nothing you want more than to be done with this Organization, other than being in paradise. I'm riding in Jesus's boat to get me there. When you are ready just tell him to dock the boat so you can get on, I know he would be glad to do so!!
Psalmbee
P.S. When was the last time you listened to the Staple Singers sing
"I'll Take You There"?Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-31 04:30:13
There isn’t a last time. Just looked at the words. Never heard of the Staple Singers before.
Thanks for the reference. How much we need Jesus to take us there!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-31 09:20:53
With a tip of the hat to Dr. Emmett Brown in "Back to the Future":
"Boats!? We don't need no boats! We'll just walk on water."
:) :)
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 16:53:07
Good point brother, on this matter of faith that Meleti used as a starting point and built his explanation around the hope is as Jesus said putting new wine in old wine skins, reading through the material I felt the pressure of his explanations had burst the bag of credibility. The understanding of faith as used by Meleti is an oldie but a baddie from the archives of the catholic Church.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 18:03:20
The Governing Body call those who dissent with their opinions, apostates and liars, but never explain why. Let us not resort to their tactics on this forum. My explanation of faith was taken, not from Catholic Church archives, but from the excellent definition and examples provided to us in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. Please confine your replies to Scriptural evidence and not ad hominem attacks. They are unwelcome on this forum.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 10:55:53
Also, you say that Eric has presented "vagaries" around the Kingdom Hope. From your post, it seems to me that the onus is now on you to clear up these "vagaries".
We all know the inherent problem with that approach- that we would now be looking to "men" to interpret the Scriptures for us.
Sound familiar?......
Sometimes we just have to admit that we don't understand all of the particular mechanics of how the Kingdom will operate. We will find out soon enough....Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 16:48:18
Good point I will address these vagaries, as they are addressed for us in the scriptures. These vagaries are as a result of Apostate Christendom introducing Greek philosophy into the Christian narrative. It is so pervasive for so long we do not even realize it ourselves at times as in now when we discuss this issue of what the hope really is. This subject was discussed for centuries earlier from the second century, many were put to death arguing about it or were burned at the stake until dissent was quashed. The idea of heavenly life for all then has persisted in this pervasive manner till today. yet the scriptures are clear, I will discuss in another post. This subject is of supreme importance , as it is central to salvation. 1Peter 3:15. I ask what is your hope ??? according to Meleti the answer must be we do not know. ???????? Que???? Cannot give a reply for the hope within us??? Not to be found in the scriptures, I do not think so!!!
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 20:15:10
It would seem that things are black-and-white in your mind Alithia. As for me, the more I study God's Word, the more I realize that I had many misconceptions about a good many things. I still struggle to try and put away some of these erroneous precepts that are definitely a "hangover" from four decades of Org indoctrination.
As for 1 Peter 3:15, my hope is that God will ultimately take care of all of his children in His due time, whether in heaven or earth.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:28:24
I agree, Warp Speed.
For me it's almost 6 decades and Its humbling to see how much I accepted that was beyond scripture. I'm not going to fall for it again. I'd rather be ignorant than accept more dogma.
I'm with you in trusting God to do what's right for all of us. I think for the first time in my life I'm actually content to do just that.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-27 06:29:13
If Paul could not explain his hope in clear detail, then how can I ? there are enough scriptures suggesting our hope is to be on the earth, and nothing to tell us what happens when and if it is filled up.
There are plenty of scriptures suggesting somewhere else is the hope, while no one seems to have discussed 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (We shall all be changed..put on immortality etc).
Its all back to 1 Cor 2:9, which means I still do not know enough to be categoric, and am undoubtedly influenced by 40 odd years of JW teaching, except that at least that helps me focus on the best scriptures.
it is enough of a challenge to try to work out how to worship God in spirit and truth as an individual with free will, and to learn how to be responsible for exercising my own conscience.
Adam and Eve had no idea what would be their future when they started off. It was not important. Stage One (caring for the earth etc) was a massive task. That was their focus. Similarly the best we have is a hazy outline, as Paul puts it in 1 Cor 13:12.
Its tough enough working out truth from what we have got. Great, Alithia, if you are convinced in what you are reading, that you have the correct perspective. Then hold on to it. But it can be dangerous to be too categoric. Meanwhile may we all continue to be free to express ourselves here on this site, because it is opening up all sorts of scriptures for discussion.Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 14:50:33
Good comment. If we get killed for not knowing and understanding all the details we are all going down, which means we have no hope? Would you kill people for that if you were God?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 18:12:33
Messenger, is someone suggesting--other then Jehovah's Witnesses--that someone would get killed for not knowing all the details?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 18:00:25
Alithia,
You are taking my words out of context. Our hope is to live forever with the Christ. That is clear. I was discussing the belief that many have that our hope is to live in heaven, and to that I gave evidence to support the idea that we will live on earth, but I cannot prove beyond doubt that we will be denied access to heavenly places, nor can I explain "what we will be", anymore than Paul could. If you can find Bible proof to clear up these questions without resorting to person opinion and interpretation, then I welcome your comment.
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 16:41:08
Maybe the point about complete trust in someone or something was missed by you as Meleti ended by saying we cannot be sure. This is not biblical faith which as I tried to demonstrate is complete or sure Meleti incorrectly applied scriptures about what Paul said about only seeing partially as applying to the understanding of the hope/reward for faithful Christians. What Paul meant there is that from his moment in time the reward which would be fully realized in the future as a "new creation" a resurrected man in a perfect body like the Christ reflecting God like Adam did, however in the present moment when Paul was talking the body, his and others was in by comparison only a hazy vision of the things to come. The Hope. read fully the account where Paul discuses this I will post again covering this then.
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-27 15:34:16
Alithia your comments about faith meaning trust, and that trust being in an object are true. The Bible teaches we put our faith in God and his son. That is the focus of our faith. When Paul commented on seeing a hazy outline but later having more complete knowledge he referred to the time he referenced at 1Cor 15:35-44 when his body would be spiritual allowing him to see God and Jesus in their natural state, as well as viewing other heavenly realities unseen by men. True he did not mean then he would understand where he would exist. He already knew that. He also knew mankind, not the raised church would live in Earth.
Reply by Dajo on 2018-05-26 22:24:38
Good morning Alithia,
I wanted to say how much I gleaned from your personal experience on another part of this site. Thank you for sharing so many personal things.
I have read and re-read yours an Meleti's articles and from the way I see it (and of course mine is only from my viewpoint).. your article seems to actually compliment the one Meleti wrote.
I only speak from what I have discerned from my own Bible reading this:
Heaven, Heavens or heavenly as words, seem to be sometimes a state place, thing or other realm, dimension or something I think that we can't fully understand. Does it exist here right alongside us? are we part of it like a room is part of a house?
I can trust that it does exist because of what I have seen in creation itself. I know I'm sounding mundane here however we Trust that Jesus will run things one day and that trust has a basis. Our Christian hope is built on trust and we manifest that when we do our best to 'put on the Christ'.
I can't help but also think that if we are to try and 'define' our Christian hope to others too much ... well where would we stop! I for one have an opinion on washing machines in the restored earth (TRUST me on this!!) :) But I don't think it will contribute anything, or be helpful to any here.
Thanks again for you deep article and I will continue to follow along with the comments here.Reply by Devora on 2018-05-27 07:21:03
Brother Dajo,indeed the spiritual Heavens are a different "Dimension"...
We believe and accept Jah and Christ's and all angelic realities as-existing on a different
plane of existence..their abilities to move in/out of earthly/physical-universe,"the things seen".
"No man can see God and yet live"..but Christ spoke of his Father's "house in which there are many abodes".Revelation 22:3:
..."they will see His face..".Fully able to exist in Both Dimensions..
The"problem/dilemma"of our destiny is solved by what many of you brothers here already see--as Christ said,in that future with his follwers,He will drink of the fruit of the vine.He proved the realities of what will be,as outlined already here,by so many of you.
When'All things gathered in Christ,(both dimensions)
in the Heavens and the Earth'...when"the ReCreation"is realized,
Peaceful Unity will be realized.."Look!I am making ALL things NEW".
Also,RE/having now,individual gifts of the Spirit,"He does not give out the Spirit by measure"..'Each one (as being given)a portion of it'.As in the first century God's spirit through Christ did indeed give some prophetic abilities.
Brothers I am suffering from exhaustion,too brain-tired,but all your comments here help all in various degrees and I rejoice in it.Thank You.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 14:49:55
Hi Alithia,
I fail to see how substituting “trust” for “faith” in our translations helps us avoid being misled by men. The Governing Body in the March broadcast exhorted Jehovah’s Witnesses to have” full trust” and the Governing Body. You will admit that there is a difference between the nouns “belief”, “trust”, and “faith”. In English, faith is only a noun. It is not a verb. I cannot say, ”I faith in God”, but I can say, “ I believe in God,” or “I trust in God”. People might say, “believe me.” Or they might say, “trust me.” But you would never say, “faith me.”
By contrast, these three words are used to translate the one Word in Greek. The noun, pistis, occurs 243 times ended virtually every occurrence is rendered as “faith”, not “trust” or “belief”. However, when the same word is expressed as a verb, pisteuó, some 244 times, it is most frequently rendered as “believe”.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
believe (118), believed (73), believers (3), believes (29), believing (10), do (1), entrust (1), entrusted (6), entrusting (1), has faith (1).
You make many well reasoned reasons arguments, but we must focus on is what the Bible says. Modern dictionaries and Bible lexicons are aged understanding, but the writer of Hebrews gives us a Bible definition of the term “faith” and then backs it up with numerous examples. As we scan through those examples, we find many who did not have an accurate understanding of their hope. Jehovah did not appear to able, or Noah, or Moses at the time in which they exercised faith in him and lay down a precise explanation of what they would get for their faith. Wasn’t as if there was some kind of contract between them stating I will do this for you if you will do this for me.
It is true that belief is part of faith. The writer of Hebrews says that the first step is to believe that God exists. (Hebrews 11:6) True, this is not enough, because as you point out, the demons also believe. Nevertheless, a Christian cannot have faith without first believing in the existence of God. The difference is that the demons believe but do not act. Their belief does not motivate them to do good. So, faith is more than simple belief even though the same word in Greek can refer to simple belief or belief that motivates one to action. In this perhaps we have something in English they do not have Greek, we have a specific word with a positive connotation. We would not say that the demons have faith in God, but we can say they have belief in God. Yet expressing this in Greek would require us to use the same word if I’m not mistaken.
Many people today do not believe in God at all. Therefore they have no basis for faith of any kind and the divine one. On the other hand, there are many people to do believe in God. But they may feel that he is distant or uncaring, some might even believe he is malevolent based all the suffering they see in the world today most of which they blame on God. So, while believing in God, they do not have faith. Jehovah has promised us everlasting life. But those are just words written down in the book. I do we know that’s true?
I’m sorry, but I must disagree with you. Faith is completely about trusting in the unknowable. Paul said:
“. . .For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.” (Romans 8:24, 25)
When the thing hoped for has become a reality, we have full knowledge. We then know accurately. But now we only know partially, just as Paul said. Partially, because our knowledge is based on faith not on reality. The reality, the thing hoped for, is not yet seen. Our faith makes the reality real. But when the reality has come, we will not need the faith, because we will have the fulfillment of the reward.Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-27 16:43:14
Hello Meleti, thank you for the reply I like and can appreciate this point of view. I will balance this against how I see things.
Bye the way you certainly have stoked the fire with this choice of topic!!!
At the moment the discussion seems to be raging with more intensity and duration than the California wild fires!!!
On the subject to further make my point, you mentioned the March broadcast about having full and complete trust in the Governing Body, "faith". Locsh mentioned many of the same examples as recorded in Hebrews chapter 11 alluding to the same point of view as the one you present about faith and not knowing.
However if one takes the time to consider each and every one of these accounts in detail which Losch did not. (for good reason as there is plenty of reasons why Moses and the Israelites could have faith and completely trust Jehovah and Moses, the GB being unable to raise anything substantive) Moses for one, Jehovah did not leave Moses or anyone else along the entire process from wo to go in any doubt, wondering or guessing what is going to happen next without a mountain of certainty and of extraordinary proofs, including clear and prior notice to the up coming event. It is Gods trade mark in how he deals with people, do we expect him to change in his ways?
Faith as it is understood today would certainly not be required back then however faith is integral to the whole shebang and constantly refereed to in relation to the Exodus through out the bible!!!
The GB likes to operate in a different way and on a different level and yet make the same appeal as many who have the current understanding of faith as it is understood.
Moses said, but what if they do not believe me LORD when I say you sent me? The rod turns into a snake, Moses hand turns leprous and back to health. Performs this in front of Pharaoh too and his snake eats up the wise men's snake.
10 epic plagues, a pillar of fire at night, a cloud pillar during the day to follow, smoke wind thunder lightning at the Mount Sinai, snake ,bird and manna, Red Sea, winning wars miracles!!!
Still in all of this the Israelite nation tested God in the wilderness by not displaying faith??? (actions) It certainly was not the case for lack of clear concise and obvious butt burning proof! Read Psalm 106 where this is discussed in terms of Gods people having and then lacking faith in Gods promises..See verse 12"then they had faith, then they did not" Nothing to do with "believing" or "faith" as it is understood today. It is all about the level of "trust" "pisti" they had as evidenced by their actions! This is where the emphasis is in the scriptures, preconceived ideas color thinking to the "nebulous unidentifiable unknown mysterious kind of faith".
My point being God is the same today yesterday and tomorrow! He gives us fickle imperfect humans heaps to base our faith on. What we do, is the test, the display by works/actions not the level of credulity we display.
This is how Losch would like us to believe, this is a Watchtowerly teaching and mind set that they readily and often appeal to promote ardent followers of their teachings that have little or mostly no scriptural support. If the current belief is the correct one about faith why are we not all rushing back to the Org anyway???? Where is our faith that Jah will fix things in good time?? How do we argue that, if our understanding of faith is the same as brother Losch??????
Along with all of the other JW teachings I think this is one that is most insidious and dangerous requiring caution. That is why I am taking time to add a little extra around it. Ha ha Ha!
The view I am positing takes time to sink in and have the penny drop but when it does the scriptures become so much more sublime and harmonious from a logical and reasoned way rather than the typical Christendom airy fairy view.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 18:23:41
Thanks Alithia,
The driving force for your zeal in defending your position is now more evident to me and I applaud your desire to ensure that the belief in faith in God is never perverted by men in a way to cause others to put faith or trust in men instead of God.
However, I don't think we are in danger of that as long as we keep our focus on the Christ. I was just asked by a sister why I don't just wait on Jehovah to fix things. Essentially she was asking me why I don't have faith in God that he will fix things that are wrong in the organization. I told her that I have complete trust that God will fix things. I said that he fixed things in his former earthly organization (to use Witness vernacular). I said that he destroyed that earthly organization in 70 C.E. That's how he fixes things, and he'll do something similar with all religions that claim to be his possession or his organization.
However, it isn't Jehovah who is giving me a clear picture of my salvation. I put faith in him, trusting I will get eternal life in a glorified spiritual body--whatever that turns out to be.
It is the Organization that tries to give you and me a clear picture of our hope with artfully contrived artist renditions of life on a paradise earth. They are the ones trying to make our hope clear and easy to grasp in an effort to get us to trust them.
Comment by pquin7 on 2018-05-26 11:09:18
I believe brother you may not have a clear understanding of what paul means by mystery. when you compare romans 16: 25,26 with ephesians 3:1-11 and colossians. 1:25 26 Paul was taking about his commission to the Gentiles or the nations which he was chosen by christ to gather. Paul calls it a revelation that was given to him, that God was going to call people of the nations to be part of the spiritual temple his son was building. In other words the Mystery was as Jesus eluded to in john 10:16 of the other sheep. As ver 6 of Ephesians says The Mystery is that the Gentiles are joint heirs and fellow members of the same body and co-shares of the promise in Messiah. That is the Mystery my brother and not to some reward as you allude in your article.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-26 12:50:28
pquin7, I believe you are correct, and Eric's application of "sacred secret" or "mystery" regarding the Christian hope is not supported by the verses he cites.
Now, we should be able to agree that there is more than one "secret" in the Bible, since we are told that we only know the "fringes" of God's ways. I'd say there are all kinds of secrets we still don't know.
However, the particular "secret" as to mankind's ultimate destiny and hope is not made more clear by the verses Eric cited.
Further, I believe Eric is trying too hard to be "politically correct" (in a manner of speaking), by his unwillingness to commit to the idea that the Christian hope is on earth, and no where else.
To me, the scriptures are very, very plain about this. It virtually 'shouts' this, when all verses in the entire Bible are taken together, that man's destiny is on earth. It is not a mystery at all. When Eric says that it is, he is wrong.
I must ask, with all the words of Christ, and all the words of all his apostles and other inspired writers of the NT all taken together, why is there not a single sentence that says in plain language something like this: "When faithful Christians die in a state of divine approval, they will be resurrected as spirit beings, then transported to heaven to exist like angels, to live out their lives in the very personal presence of God Himself"?
The thing is, such a statement appears nowhere in the Bible. Why? Because it's not the truth.
While I am pleased with much of what he wrote (and, he knows full well how much that means, since I have written to him at length about this), what he presented falls short of what I had hoped for.
I am confident he will expand upon this important topic in the future.Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 13:34:02
And again Robert, that is just your opinion. Maybe you are the one trying to be politically correct........
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-26 16:18:57
Please be specific. Which part is "just" my opinion? Surely not all of it. As for me being politically correct myself, I have gotten plenty of backslash in my time on this forum, so if that were an attempt to be politically correct, I am doing a pretty poor job of it.
In any case, I noted that this was just a figure of speech, and said further that it was about Eric's unwillingness to commit to saying that man's destiny is on the earth. The very fact that I *am* saying this shows I am not even slightly trying to be politically correct. I am saying unequivocally that man's destiny is on the earth, period. That is not even vaguely political. Either it's correct, or it's not.
As for being my opinion, it is not.
Fact: The very first mention of man having a destiny other than earth was suggested, not by God, but by Satan. He told Adam and Eve that (1) they would be immortal (you will not die), (2) they would be of divine nature (you will be like God), and (3) they would possess capabilities unavailable to ordinary people (you will know good and bad, something they couldn't as yet do). This means the "heavenly hope" doctrine was tainted from day one as being a teaching of demons.
Fact: God said the earth and man were "very good". If faithful Christians needed to be sent to heaven to receive their "reward" and for their lives to be "good", then God's pronouncement in Eden rings hollow, and borders on being a lie.
Fact: God said that He gave the earth to the sons of men. If people are resurrected to heaven, then God's gift to THEM gets taken away, and again, God is cast as a liar.
Fact: The passage in Revelation is correctly translated as saying that persons would rule ON the earth. If that is so, but Christians were resurrected to heaven, they would have to come back to be "on" the earth. If they needed to be on earth, why leave the earth first and come back? Is that reasonable? The Bible commands US to be reasonable, but is God Himself not going to act that way? It doesn't make sense.
Fact: The scriptures are very clear that God does not take the counsel of humans, nor can men give Him anything such that He needed to repay them. We also have the record of Christ's words and actions on earth. When did Jesus EVER ask his apostles for advice? Never. These things are clear evidence that God and Christ DO NO NEED US in heaven. There is no reason at all for humans to be sent to heaven to "help run the universe" in the kingdom arrangement.
They don't need us. WE need those rulers on earth, to help US.
Those are facts, not my opinions.Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-26 16:31:00
I agree Roberto, the idea of heavenly life for humans other than Jesus is a demonic mockery and we should not equivocate about the earthly hope that Jehovah has determined for mankind. Other than to be 100% on this is to give credence to the lies that only started to appear in the centuries after 1st Century Christianity when Greek philosophy became entangled with the truth. Along with the Trinity, the departing of the soul to heavenly life as a reward is also one major part of the Apostasy that Paul spoke about.
Reply by messenger on 2018-05-26 18:38:38
Robert-6512
Man's destiny is on Earth. Put members in the church of Christ making up God's kingdom become creatures that are no longer men or women. That thought also is clear in scripture; so clear it should need no looking up of scriptures among biblically literate people sharing thoughts, even those people sharing different beliefs. The beatitudes Eric shared, that were spoken by Christ in Matthew 5, could be referring to these two distinctly different groups of people sharing different destinies, not the same one, but two (Earth and heaven).
You suggest Christ should have made a statement clear enough for you to understand it if another's belief about scripture proves true and yours does not. Have you ever considered that Christ did not do that out of design, and for a reason?
One WT teaching is that all early Christians had a heavenly hope, and many of today's Christians do not. But, Christ said, many are called but few chosen, possibly suggesting not all Christians in the first century were chosen either. And yet if so, might the ones not chosen have life here on Earth, and help take a part here in fulfilling God's purpose?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 17:40:22
Mankind's destiny is on earth, at least for the foreseeable future, but my discussion wasn't about Mankind's destiny. I was discussing the Christian Hope, not the hope for Mankind. Mankind will be resurrected in their billions as the unrighteous Jesus spoke of. My article dealt with the tiny group of Christians who are the Children of God. I do not feel we can be dogmatic about that. I do not feel we can accurately know all there is to know about that hope. Being policitically correct is a phase used when one describes attempts to not offend others. My purpose was something else. I was attempting to avoid opinionated dogmatism.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 18:26:20
Thanks IIOHB. I was surprised by the vehemence of some of the comments. I didn't think not being dogmatic would create such a backlash. :)
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-27 21:01:35
Maybe the solution is to be more dogmatic??
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:22:06
The very fact that you are not dogmatic is like raindrops on a parched garden Eric.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 17:54:03
“Fact: The very first mention of man having a destiny other than earth was suggested, not by God, but by Satan. He told Adam and Eve that (1) they would be immortal (you will not die), (2) they would be of divine nature (you will be like God), and (3) they would possess capabilities unavailable to ordinary people (you will know good and bad, something they couldn't as yet do). This means the "heavenly hope" doctrine is tainted 'from day one' as being a teaching of demons.”
That is a remarkable stretch of logic. The “fact” is that they did become like God, knowing good and evil. We know this from Jehovah’s own words.
“. . .Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.. . .” (Genesis 3:22)
So that breaks your line of reasoning.
Additionally, you are inferring that the Devil was implying they would have capabilities unavailable to ordinary people, and them far more than that, that these new capabilities were part of the heavenly hope.
“Fact: God said the earth and man were "very good". If faithful Christians need to be sent to heaven for their lives to be "good", then God's pronouncement in Eden rings hollow, and borders on being a lie.”
While other religions believe that all humans go to heaven, that is not our discussion here. If God wishes to take a small group of humans and reward them in a special way, who are we to say that he cannot. It doesn’t conflict with his purpose of having Mankind possess the earth. In fact, this arrangement is to make that possible.
“Fact: God said that He gave the earth to the sons of men. If people are resurrected to heaven, then God's gift to THEM gets taken away, and again, God is cast as a liar.”
The anointed do possess the earth. However, from this we cannot conclude that they must be denied assess to heaven. If the earth is populated by billions of humans and the anointed are on the earth but are also granted access to heavenly places, then how would that make God a liar?
On your last two points, I don’t want us to be arguing from opposing directions when in fact we are on the same page, but in different corners of the pages. As I stated in the video, there is no Scripture I am aware of that says the anointed will live in heaven. However, they are resurrected with spiritual bodies, not physical bodies, just as Christ was. That bespeaks of something new. All I’m saying is that the nature of that new creation is nothing something I can speak about with authority. We can only guess at it. I know that makes some people uncomfortable. They want certainly. They want black and white.
“Fact: The very first mention of man having a destiny other than earth was suggested, not by God, but by Satan. He told Adam and Eve that (1) they would be immortal (you will not die), (2) they would be of divine nature (you will be like God), and (3) they would possess capabilities unavailable to ordinary people (you will know good and bad, something they couldn't as yet do). This means the "heavenly hope" doctrine is tainted 'from day one' as being a teaching of demons.”
That is a remarkable stretch of logic. The “fact” is that they did become like God, knowing good and evil. We know this from Jehovah’s own words.
“. . .Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.. . .” (Genesis 3:22)
So that breaks your line of reasoning.
Additionally, you are inferring that the Devil was implying they would have capabilities unavailable to ordinary people, and them far more than that, that these new capabilities were part of the heavenly hope.
“Fact: God said the earth and man were "very good". If faithful Christians need to be sent to heaven for their lives to be "good", then God's pronouncement in Eden rings hollow, and borders on being a lie.”
While other religions believe that all humans go to heaven, that is not our discussion here. If God wishes to take a small group of humans and reward them in a special way, who are we to say that he cannot. It doesn’t conflict with his purpose of having Mankind possess the earth. In fact, this arrangement is to make that possible.
“Fact: God said that He gave the earth to the sons of men. If people are resurrected to heaven, then God's gift to THEM gets taken away, and again, God is cast as a liar.”
The anointed do possess the earth. However, from this we cannot conclude that they must be denied assess to heaven. If the earth is populated by billions of humans and the anointed are on the earth but are also granted access to heavenly places, then how would that make God a liar?
On your last two points, I don’t want us to be arguing from opposing directions when in fact we are on the same page, but in different corners of the pages. As I stated in the video, there is no Scripture I am aware of that says the anointed will live in heaven. However, they are resurrected with spiritual bodies, not physical bodies, just as Christ was. That bespeaks of something new. All I’m saying is that the nature of that new creation is nothing something I can speak about with authority. We can only guess at it. I know that makes some people uncomfortable. They want certainly. They want black and white.
Reply by Yehorakam on 2018-05-29 17:55:33
Hi Robert. In answer to your statement: "I must ask, with all the words of Christ, and all the words of all his apostles and other inspired writers of the NT all taken together, why is there not a single sentence that says in plain language something like this: “When faithful Christians die in a state of divine approval, they will be resurrected as spirit beings, then transported to heaven to exist like angels, to live out their lives in the very personal presence of God Himself”?
The thing is, such a statement appears nowhere in the Bible. Why? Because it’s not the truth."
I'm surprised you asked that questions. In a split second, my mind reflected on these scriptures:
(Luke 20:34-36) ". . .Jesus said to them: “The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection."
(1 Corinthians 15:42-49) ". . .So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. . .
(Hebrews 11:13-16) "...All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant future and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers and foreigners on earth. For people who say such things make it clear that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking about what they had left behind, they would have had an opportunity to go back. Instead, they were longing for a better country, that is, a heavenly one. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, because he has prepared a city for them."
Funny how Jesus' own words did make it quite clear. So did Paul's. Funny how quickly we forget scriptures so clear. If I remember correctly, months ago you made a comment that essentially was putting pressure on Eric to write an article about this. He finally did and it appears you're not happy. In my own opinion, I don't think he got everything right, but at least he is attempting to find how scriptures can be harmonized, without ignoring clear statements by God's son and the apostles. I could be wrong, but your statement seems to claim that verses don't exist when they really do. Why not consider anew all the verses on this subject, meditate and pray about it. If you are patient, flexible and put aside your emotions, holy spirit can show you the truth, and then everything fits. Then the so called "contradictions" disappear and you will be at peace.
By interjecting here, I don't wish to start a debate, but I can say something inside me twitched when you said: "the scriptures aren't clear on this" when I think they actually are quite clear. What often isn't clear is our understanding, or how different verses work together to paint a beautiful picture. That's why it's best to be careful when making blanket statements.
Much love
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-27 04:20:20
Good points brother Pquin7, but after reading those scriptures and giving them some consideration I note that in each of those scriptures the sacred secret being manifest and having been a secret for a long time has been revealed in Jesus. And all things that arise from this, including rewards of any kind. Jesus who proved to be the promised Messiah, who fulfilled the letter of the Law and fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning him as found in the Hebrew scriptures.
Jesus of course being central to the outworking of Gods plan for the earth in gathering the chosen ones to rule with him and to transform or restore the earth to its original condition as in the the Garden of Eden. (reward for us)
In the process Jesus would also gather chosen ones from among the nations to fulfill the prophecy from long ago uttered to Abraham that all the nations will be blessed by means of his seed. So it may seem that there are lots of "secrets, mysteries, hidden things" floating around but there really is only one, that has now been revealed, that is Jesus who is "all things" as he was revealed to the people in the time that Jesus lived on earth.
The whole carboodle is about getting mankind back on track to having a great time on planet earth in the recreation when mankind can enjoy life in a paradise earth, possibly with a Panda or a Lion for a pet and living forever in a righteous society of people in perfect physical and spiritual health.
Yeah I know that last blurb was automatic but I still stand by it. Love to all.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 17:34:58
Hi pquin7,
You focus on one aspect of the sacred secret, but it is part, not the whole.
Here are the verses which deal with the matter:
“. . .the sacred secret of the kingdom of God . . .” (Mark 4:11)
“. . .For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in,” (Romans 11:25)
“. . .Now to him who can make YOU firm in accord with the good news I declare and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the sacred secret which has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has now been made manifest and has been made known through the prophetic scriptures among all the nations in accord with the command of the everlasting God to promote obedience by faith;” (Romans 16:25, 26)
“But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. This [wisdom] not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known [it] they would not have impaled the glorious Lord. But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:7-10)
“. . .secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52)
“. . .This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,” (Ephesians 1:8-10)
“. . .In the face of this YOU, when YOU read this, can realize the comprehension I have in the sacred secret of the Christ. In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news.” (Ephesians 3:4-6)
“. . .This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation.” (Ephesians 5:32)
“. . .that ability to speak may be given me with the opening of my mouth, with freeness of speech to make known the sacred secret of the good news, for which I am acting as an ambassador in chains; . . .” (Ephesians 6:19, 20)
“. . .to whom God has been pleased to make known what are the glorious riches of this sacred secret among the nations. It is Christ in union with YOU, the hope of [his] glory.” (Colossians 1:27)
“. . .with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ. Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Colossians 2:2, 3)
“. . .that God may open a door of utterance to us, to speak the sacred secret about the Christ,. . .” (Colossians 4:3)
“. . .Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’” (1 Timothy 3:16)
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-05-27 10:25:52
Meleti, you said it yourself in this very article that the NWT is misleading. You are correct with that statement, but what I don't understand is, why do you continue to use it? You said many times in this article "the Bible says" and then quote from the NWT. I believe you said that you finally left the ORG. in 2012 therefore you are using a book that they re-butchered in 2013, what gives? It's a distorted translation that the NEW WORLD BIBLE TRANSLATION COMMITTEE (all capital letters, I wonder why!) butchered up for WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA and WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK INC. (all capital letters, I think I know why.)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 11:31:03
Hi Psalmbee.
These articles and videos are seeking to appeal to Jehovah's Witnesses, so I'm following the principle Paul established.
“. . .To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-22)Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-27 12:08:19
Ad recte docendum oportet, primum inquirere nomina,quia rerum cognitio a nominibus rerum dependet. = In order rightly to comprehend a thing, inquire first into the names, for a right knowledge of things depends upon their names.
Sometimes the dominating persons are outsiders controlling the corporation by nominees. (Is anyone here ready to pierce the corporate veil?)Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-27 20:54:11
What does that mean?
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 09:57:45
The explanation was given in the comment, did you not read the whole thing Warp Speed?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-28 11:43:35
I think what Warp Speed is trying to say is that while we understand what is written, we don't understand what is meant. The comment seems to be out of context to the current discussion.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 21:31:16
The point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to find fault and misleading information with the JW doctrine. We do it in every article on this site, but that's as far as it goes. No one seems to care about the set-up behind the scenes and I'm not talking about the nominated GB. Who is behind all this falsehood and why has it flourished? In layman's terms, if you want to kill a snake you should chop his head off.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-28 21:54:04
According to the Bible, Satan is the father of the lie. (John 8:44) Just what is it you propose to do Psalmbee?
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 22:57:03
What I plan on doing is keep listening and following (Jn 10:4).
I wish I knew my subconscious interest in being here among you and the others. I wish I knew why I ever was acquainted with any form of the WTBTS. But for now I just follow the voice I know (Jn 10:27).
I will tell you that one thing I've learned along the "way" and it's a good thing, is that I had to know Jehovah before I could know Jesus. And the funny thing is that I have to go through the father to get to the Son.
I think someone forgot to put that in the Bible!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-28 22:20:09
Jesus is the snake killer, Psalmbee. (Genesis 3:15) As for us, we leave vengeance in the hands of God. (Hebrews 10:30) That doesn't mean we cannot expose their lies, of course.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 22:43:37
Yes indeed, I couldn't agree more. (1Jn 3:8)
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 09:56:36
No, and that's a silly question. It's a written Latin phrase that was translated into written English.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-28 10:37:57
Technically you are correct, and if they are Holy then so be it.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you are quick witted for someone who is brainless. Good one!
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-27 11:39:36
Psalmbee, I understand your not liking the use of the NWT,. However, many of us here can recall the NWT scriptures more easily than any other translation. Also this site is dedicated to help JWs see the truth, and is seriously examining the JW teachings. If we were examining Islam, we would quote from an acceptable translation of the ‘Koran. If it was Mormon teachings, we would be quoting from the Book of Mormon.
Many of us here are only too well aware of flaws in the NWT. If there is a bad quote we use, anyone is welcome to elucidate it for us. At least the NWT puts Jehovah’s name in the right place, and 237 places where it should not have put it in the NT. Otherwise, your bringing out the flaws in the NWT verses which we quote is positively helpful, and may aid us in getting others out.
PS. The comments are my own, as I am not speaking for Eric or this site in general.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-27 12:26:24
Well put, Leonardo.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-27 22:34:27
I appreciate that LJ, and understand what you are saying, but does 237 wrongs make 7000 give or take rights? Would you continue to take prescribed medicine that you knew was killing you, just because your Dr. said it was right for you? I have some problems with the JW doctrine, but my main beef is with the slicksters in NY. Take a look at the title/publishers page in your silver sword, why all the capital letters? Has anyone looked at (legal fiction), these guys are the masters of it.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-28 07:03:23
Hi Psalmbee. We must be getting close to some sort of record on this site for the number of comments. All since the likes and dislikes have been removed.
There are, I agree, 237 errors with the divine name in the Christian Greek scriptures/NT, and 7000 odd in most other translations. I believe that most of those who are regular on this site are not misled by this matter. Everytime I read the divine name in the NT I ask myself
1. Is this a quote from the OT ?
2. Who is it likely to be referring to?
I know it is a translation of “kyrios”, and, I guess, I would have to ask a similar question if I was reading another Bible as to who is referred to by “lord”.
Basically I am not now fooled on this matter. I was, but I am not now.
There are other poorly translated verses in the NWT. I have written, not with satisfactory replies, to WTBTS to ask for explanations, on some of these. But so far the situation has not reached a point where I find the NWT is so bad it is unusable.
Personally I would prefer this site used a Bible I have in my library than one I do not have access to. Eric and Tadua and those that comment often bring out how other translators have worded things, and I regularly refer to Biblehub, Bible Gtaeway, or E Sword or similar sites when I am not sure about what I am being told. I also have a hard copy of Vines.
After some 3 years reading things on this site, I have become a very suspicious person when it comes to WT teachings, but I cannot see how we can examine their teachings without using their Bible.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:08:17
Well said Leonardo.
We are wise and cautious now when we read the NWT. A bit like when we would read " other" translations in the past with a wary eye. ?
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-29 10:06:14
Why use NWT? Many have the library cd, so it is convenient. Not all of it is translated badly. There are many passages that do a respectable job. We can always check bible hub if there are questions. Other translations have mistakes too. We shouldnt overreact to that fact of life. Finally, all-caps is just a printing style. I wouldn't read too much into it (literally).
Comment by lazarus on 2018-05-28 18:07:01
I’ve already made a comment but I feel I need to make another comment not so much in valid questions being raised.
So , please don’t take offence. .i can see, in a similar way the apostles Peter and Paul over circumcision, and Paul and Barnabas having disagreement about Mark that they had to part company and work independently.and let’s not leave out in Philippi two women Syntyche and Euodia had such a disruptive disagreement that Paul had to single them out for rebuke.
Im not against disagreements it is a normal part of the imperfect body of Christ.
I think in working out our differences we need to realise that the Bible always takes precedence over personal views. I’m sure everyone agrees.
Having our convictions challenged and changed by interaction with God's truth may at times be very painful. I’ve felt that after 30 years as a witness, PIMO. But it is also a very necessary part of growing into maturity in Christ. Therefore it is essential that we come to the Scriptures, and to each other, with a readiness to be convicted and reshaped to be more like Jesus Christ, so that we can live in a way that brings glory to God and a powerful witness, based on love. John 13:34,35 Again in defence of Meleti he wasn’t being dogmatic. Coffee anyone ?Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:54:18
Well said Lazarus.
A bit late for coffee for me but thanks for the offer.Reply by lazarus on 2018-05-29 18:15:26
Ahh I see, I live in a state that’s above Van Diemen's Land. ??? So it will be a cup of tea or something else for you ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-28 19:08:35
This is when I miss the vote-up button. :)
Reply by lazarus on 2018-05-29 18:11:38
Agree
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-28 19:19:21
Very well said Lazarus?
Reply by lazarus on 2018-05-29 18:11:17
???
Reply by Devora on 2018-05-28 22:06:40
Amen,Lazarus.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-28 23:18:08
Lazarus, you are totally 100% right.
The scriptures tell, we can do nothing against the truth, only for the truth. Of course, those opposed to the truth, or unwittingly disseminating falsehood, may impede the truth for a while, but in the end truth will prevail.
For instance, we could dogmatically assert that 2+2=3, but when our checkbook does not balance, or we cannot construct a house or sew a garment that fits, we know something is wrong. Likewise here.
I would tell everyone here, keep pounding away, question everything, research, ponder. Don't take offense, challenge others kindly, but keep challenging. If you criticize, have good reasons. Be prepared to back them up, be also be prepared to be wrong and admit it.
We must never forget, Russell was wrong about Christ's advent. Instead of admitting he was wrong, he tried to cover it over. The flaws and wrongdoing of the present day WT are the result of decades of covering over one mistake after another. In a spiritual sense, they have tried to "balance their books" by saying 2+2=3, but their books don't balance.
Finally, I am fully mindful that I am foremost in needing to follow my own advice; the irony is not lost on me.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-29 08:18:00
Well said Robert
?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-29 09:03:37
??
Reply by lazarus on 2018-05-29 18:10:40
??? Thanks Robert- will all need it.
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 18:17:59
I enjoyed your video presentation Eric. ?
I watch it and read along with the scriptures as my husband listens along.
It's great to see how competent you are behind the camera... When you look back at the first one you must feel proud of yourself for the progress! I'd be a shivering wreck , but you've taken to it like a duck to water.
Your reasoning is very interesting and I can't deny there's much evidence in favour of what you propose. Most of it .... I agree with. Definitely the kingdom ruling on earth. It makes total sense. Otherwise we'd have the same problem of perfect rulers transmitting info to imperfect humans on earth and the Chinese whispers begin again from those who claim to be the recipients. No thanks.
I don't quite agree with everything you say, but the beauty of this site is that I can say that and we're OK. I'm happy to wait on our Lord and see what happens and I do trust that everything will be wonderful. I'm still holding out for my house by the ocean with a sailboat moored at the end of the landing stage though.?
If I have to be a ruler ( ?) I can do it by satellite phone conference call from the Indian Ocean can't I?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-28 19:08:12
Some will be assigned over 10 cities, others over 5. (Luke 19:17, 18) Maybe some will be assigned over beach side resorts. There's always hope. :)
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 20:35:28
Hope is a wonderful thing ?
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-28 20:34:57
?
Reply by wild olive on 2018-05-29 01:17:27
Martha I truly hope you get your rickety little jetty with a pretty sailboat, I can understand the appeal. Every Friday afternoon I join the boys on exactly that , we call ourselves the FAGS(Friday Afternoon Gentlemen Sailors) , Jesus said according to your faith let it happen (Matt9:29), how can anyone tell you it's wrong to desire your jetty and boat?
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-29 05:14:13
How lovely to be close enough to the ocean to do that.
Well, I don't know how to sail yet, but I will learn one day and I will have that rickety jetty and pretty boat. Maybe we'll pass you gentlemen and give you an "Ahoy there me hearties!"
( yes.... I've been reading too many pirates story books to my granddaughter. ?)
Comment by wild olive on 2018-05-29 00:54:54
Eric what have you done ? How do we put a lid on this can worms ??
I just wondered if anyone had read 1 Thess 4:15-18 ? Paul describes the rapture and at :18 counsels we comfort and encourage one another with that .
Seems pretty straightforward to me.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-29 06:41:42
You really want to discuss the Rapture? I am game if you are, but that's not only another can but another ball of wax altogether.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-05-29 09:02:10
I think I'd prefer the rapture to resurrection. To be transformed into a spirit or whatever Jesus is at that time and meet him in the air. What a mind-blowing experience.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2018-05-29 20:59:28
.
Comment by messenger on 2018-07-26 21:24:01
Because of the controversy experienced a couple months ago I've come back to first carefully read all the comments offered by the guests in order to more carefully examine the causes for that conflict;then I carefully read through the first half of this article, dealing with whether the elect will rule the Earth from Earth or heaven. I also skim read the second half of this article. I agree with the article that the son's of God will rule the Earth on Earth, communicating with humans in bodies that appear human during Christ's millennium. I don't know what Earthly access these will have after that mellinium though. My guess, which is only a guess, is that they'll retain access.
I base my beliefs on scriptures and also because of being shown part of my future by God. My experience suggests we will be able to commute between heaven and Earth, and that we will talk to people on Earth, and look like we looked while alive here when we enteract with people during the mellinium.
I don't expect you to accept my personal experiences for what I know they were, truly from God. We were taught those type of experiences no longer happen. And up until my mid-fifties I believed they did not happen. But the evidence to convince me differently is too overwhelming for me to deny that now.
Best wishes to you all along with Christian love.
messenger