“You will be with me in Paradise.”—Luke 23:43
[From ws 12/18 p.2 February 4 – February 10]
After giving us the usage and meaning of the Greek word “paradeisos” (an unspoiled naturally beautiful park or garden) paragraph 8 gives us accurate information. In summing up the scriptural evidence provided it says the following: “There is no indication in the Bible that Abraham thought that humans would get a final reward in a heavenly paradise. So when God spoke of “all nations of the earth” as being blessed, Abraham would reasonably think of blessings on earth. The promise was from God, so it suggested better conditions for “all nations of the earth.””
It follows up in paragraph 9 with David’s inspired promise that “the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” David was also inspired to predict: “The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it.” (Ps 37:11, 29; 2 Sa 23:2)”
The next paragraphs deal with various prophecies in Isaiah, such as Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 35:5-10, Isaiah 65:21-23, and King David’s Psalm 37. These talk about “the righteous will possess the earth and live forever upon it”, “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah”, the deserts having water and the grass growing there again, “the days of my people will be like the days of a tree” and similar wording. All together they paint a picture of a garden-like earth, with peace and everlasting life.
Finally, having set the scene convincingly, paragraphs 16-20 start discussing the theme scripture of Luke 23:43.
Discussing Jesus prophecy[i] that he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and then raised up, paragraph 18 correctly points out “The apostle Peter reports that this happened. (Acts 10:39, 40) So Jesus did not go to any Paradise on the day he and that criminal died. Jesus was “in the Grave [or “Hades”]” for days, until God resurrected him.—Acts 2:31, 32;”
One might reasonably conclude that on this occasion the NWT translation committee got it right by moving the comma. However, another possibility is worthy of our consideration and is discussed in detail in this article: A Comma Here; A Comma There.
However, we want to draw attention to the following points:
First, the continued absence of any proper references to quotations from other sources, authorities, or writers, they are using to prove a point. Unusually there is one reference as a footnote to paragraph 18. However, the usual lack of any verifiable references resumes with the example in paragraph 19 when it says: “A Bible translator from the Middle East said of Jesus’ reply: “The emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read, ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
Is this Bible translator a scholar of the same faith? Without knowing, how can we be assured there is no bias in his evaluation? Indeed, is this a recognised scholar with qualifications or just an amateur without professional qualifications? This does not mean the conclusion is wrong, just that it is far more difficult for Beroean-like Christians to have confidence in the conclusions provided. (Acts 17:11)
As an aside, even today with agreements intended to be binding we usually sign and date documents. A common wording is to say: “signed this day in the presence of ". Thus, if Jesus was reassuring the impaled criminal that it was not an empty promise, then that wording “I tell you today” is what would have reassured the dying criminal.
The second point is that it ignores “the elephant in the room”. The article points out correctly that “We can thus understand that what Jesus promised must be an earthly paradise.” (Par.21) However, the previous sentences briefly allude to the teaching of almost all Christendom and also the Organization, namely that some will go to heaven. (The Organization restricts this to 144,000). They state “That dying criminal did not know that Jesus had made a covenant with his faithful apostles to be with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 22:29)”.
There is a difficult question that needs answering, which is avoided by the Watchtower article.
We have established that the criminal will be in paradise here on earth.
Jesus clearly states he would be with him, so that would imply Jesus would be here on earth too. The Greek word translated “with” is “meta” and means “in company with”.
It therefore follows that if Jesus is on earth with this criminal and others, then he cannot be in heaven at that time. Also, if Jesus is here on earth or in its close vicinity in the atmospheric sky of the earth then the chosen ones have to be in the same place as they are with Christ. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
“The heavenly kingdom” alluded to in that statement is described in the Scriptures in terms such as “the kingdom of the heavens” and “the kingdom of God”, describing who the kingdom belongs to or comes from, rather than where it is.
In fact Luke 22:29 cited in paragraph 21, only refers to the covenant Jehovah made with Jesus and in turn Jesus with his 11 faithful disciples. This covenant was to rule and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. The Organization interprets it as extending further, but that is by no means certain or clear from the scriptures that this particular covenant is for more than his faithful 11 disciples. Luke 22:28 states one of the reasons for this covenant or promise to them was because they were the ones who had stuck with him through his trials. Other Christians who accepted Jesus from then on would not be able to stick with Christ through his trials.
More interestingly, in the same paragraph says “Unlike the dying criminal, Paul and the other faithful apostles were selected to go to heaven to share with Jesus in the Kingdom. Still, Paul was pointing to something to come in the future—a future “paradise.””
Here the article does not quote or cite a scripture in support. Why not? Is it perhaps because one does not exist? There are a number of scriptures that are or can be interpreted that way by the Organization and by Christendom. However, is there a scripture that categorically and clearly states that humans will become spirit creatures and go to live in the heavens? By “heavens” we mean Jehovah’s presence somewhere beyond outer space.[ii]
Third, the Apostle Paul states that he believed “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15). If the righteous are to be resurrected to heaven as a limited number of 144,000 as taught by the Organization, where does that leave those who will live on or be resurrected to earth? With this teaching of the Organization these ones would have to be considered as part of the unrighteous. Remember too that this would also include the likes of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Noah and so forth, as they did not have a hope to go to heaven according to the Organization. Simply put, does splitting those considered righteous between heaven and earth make sense and agree with Scripture?
Food for thought for all thinking Witnesses.
[i] See Matthew 12:40, 16:21, 17:22-23, Mark 10:34
[ii] Please see a series of articles on this site discussing this subject in depth.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Alithia on 2019-02-07 16:39:06
Just a thought around the comments of some who feel this site could take a different direction with the type of material being considered, so as to be more "up building and Christ centred".
At times I think of the early Christians particularly those who fled Jerusalem due to the persecution from the religious leaders such as Saul of Tarsus. They were forced to go to places where the language, customs and culture was different, and in many cases repugnant to a Jew. they may of had minimal community friends and family they could relate to. Not to mention a Christian community for some time in the beggoining until theuy were established.
It was possible that for some that only after decades did some receive an encouraging letter by an apostle.First and second Peter as an example. The letters are brief and basically say to hangin there, avoid sexual immorality and, theft anger etc and remember God s 1 dy is for us a thousand years. This to peole who would be intensely preoccupied with the return of Christ.
the point I am making is that we really do have an abundance of spiritual food if we scout around, if not the entire cannon of scripture to consider. Mostly thought we need t remember that the Holy Spirit is what we need to endure and keep the faith.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-02-07 18:50:07
The purpose of this site is contained in its title: JW.org Reviewer. For those who do not wish to review, analyze and cross examine JW teachings, we have another site, Beroeans.study, titled "Bible Study Forum". Unfortunately, we have been neglecting it for the past months because the work of providing videos for both the English and now Spanish communities has taken up all our time. Many hands make light the work, but alas, there are not many hands. Until that changes, we'll do our best. It is my hope that for the English audience, the need for JW centric videos will soon be reduced, and I can concentrate on videos that will build up the faith in Christ. Perhaps I can reach a similar point in Spanish since much of the work in English can be translated over.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-02-08 03:16:37
It would be fine to concentrate on things that are upbuilding. And it is good for readers to realise how many excellent articles are already available, and all credit to you for these. Those on the Bible Study forum still make fine reading.
It is hard not to criticize JW publications when those of us still attending have to listen to this. It is not a situation we like, I can assure you.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2019-02-07 19:56:33
Good points Alithia.
Holy Spirit is really what should be teaching us. We probably still have thinking patterns left over from our years of Org indoctrination.
C.T. Russell often stated that his publications were better to have than the Bible itself. The same culture still exists in the Org today. Their "spiritual food" almost replaces the Holy Scriptures as well.
Thanks for the reminders dear brother Alithia ?
Comment by Joseph Ben Mathias on 2019-02-10 19:54:34
Great article as always Tadua!
I lurk and read far more often then I ever write, but this latest WT article kind of pushed me a bit.
As a JW who's still wrestling with having to be in, I always struggle with the question of whether the errors in our belief system are due to a true misguided zeal, or at times perhaps whether the elements of the Governing Body know better but can't/won't go through the arduous process of correcting obviously misguided thinking.
Today's article was a nice review of the prophecies regarding the word Paradise in the Scriptures. The references from the Christian Greek or New Testament was where things really went off the rails though. Tadua covered nicely the erroneous thinking. What struck me though was the deliberate absence in the WT article of any mention of Revelation 2:7.
Current JW theology, and I would perhaps go so far as to say even the Scriptures, apply the word "Paradise" in this scripture to the heavenly hope. If 1st century Christians thought of "paradise" as applying to the heavenly hope in this instance, who is to say it wouldn't apply in other instances? At the very least, the possibility exists, and would seem to call for a more modest and less dogmatic approach to the subject.
I hate to judge motives, as some of the previous comments have mentioned the danger of doing, but I find it nearly impossible to believe that leaving this scripture out of what was to be an exhaustive consideration of the word Paradise in Scripture was an oversight.
End of rant.
Comment by Warp Speed on 2019-02-03 12:28:32
So then, it seems that none of us know for sure. Therefore, why do we keep trying to intellectualize all of the details.
How about cultivating love in our lives and showing it to others?
Did not our Lord and Master sum up what His followers should be doing- namely, loving God with their whole strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves?Reply by Alithia on 2019-02-03 19:41:19
Hello Warp, fine sentiments expressed that you desire which is commendable. However in my view one must consider the entire text that you refer to. Thoughts embedded in the OT and reiterated by Jesus as follows.]
Mark 12:30-31 says, "`And you shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and from your whole soul and from your whole mind and from your whole strength.’ The second is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
Please note in addition to what you quoted we must also love God with all of our mind! After which we can then properly show love to our neighbours as ourselves.
If precious truths are founded in God's word and can be known with the help of the Holy Spirit, then it would be logical that God would want us to fully use our "minds" and thinking ability to be fully cognizant of these things.
Only by "knowing the truth" can we be set free to love like Jesus did his disciples. I am not advocating an intellectual approach only to the study and application of Jesus' teachings. The Jewish religious leaders in Jesus day fell into this approach. See John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me."
Jesus pointed out that the elephant in the room they were ignoring. Jesus was the Messiah! This was not due to any lack of information or because they were not informed sufficiently. It was there reluctance to accept what the Holy Spirit was making clear through the scriptures and Jesus. So I agree Warp there needs to be an emphasis on the application of Jesus teachings by showing love to all, but I also think where needed we need to apply the admonition to use our mental powers to grasp important truths about the Kingdom gospel.
After all Paul under the guidance of Holy Spirit did say at Ephesians 4:4-6 that there is only one hope!
New International Version (NIV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
As Tadua properly mentioned in the review above there is a confusion amongst most of the Christian churches around what this hope really is. Much is said on this site about having preached a different gospel to the one originally delivered for all time by the Apostles and Jesus. So is it not important to nail this one down so to speak?
I do appreciate it can cause "brain fry" to make the discovery after thinking one has it all worked out sufficiently to think there is possibly now more ideas and long held cherished beliefs to jettison to remain only with the pure distilled waters of truth.
Comment by Bernardbooks on 2019-02-03 20:22:07
There may or may not be any agenda on the organizations part but I’ve wondered why they have failed to mention at least in a footnote the different wording in some manuscripts of Luke 23:42 in any of their Bible versions. I’ve noticed many other translations make mention of this possible variance.
(Luke 23:42) NWT
Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.”
(Luke 23:42) NET
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in* your kingdom.”
*The alternate readings of some mss make the reference to Jesus’ coming clearer. “Into your kingdom” - with εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν (eis tēn basileian), read by Ƥ75 B L - is a reference to his entering into God’s presence at the right hand. “In your kingdom” - with ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ (en tē basileia), read by א A C*,2 W Θ Ψ 070 f1, 13 33 Maj. lat sy - looks at his return.
(Luke 23:42) NASB
And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in* Your kingdom!”
*or “into”
(Luke 23:42) NRSV
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into* your kingdom.”
*Other ancient authorities read “in”
Comment by messenger on 2019-02-04 02:13:45
At Revelation 21:16 an angel measures the holy city where the church lives. It is as high as it is wide and deep. That is about 1,400 miles, which is about half way across the United States. No physical structure could be built that high from the ground.
New Jerusalem is heavenly, not physical. Those living there come out of it to serve the people on Earth. Where they spend more time is questionable. But their assignment is to serve people on Earth.
The Bible has always represented God and Christ when he was not human as living in dimensions outside the grasp of humanity. Because those are dimensions that prohibit human entrance God's position to our physical universe need not be outside it. He need only be far from us because we are prohibited from entering those dimensions necessary to see him.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-02-04 05:31:35
In reply, WS. A valid point, caused by our searching for truth following many years being misled.
Whether we are trying to "intellectualize" things, is probably not a fair way to put things. Approaching 50 years of being told this is the truth, leads one to examine everything to try and discern what is "truth".
Also, it can be very hard to build love for God after being told that JWs are his Organisation. I can understand why many who leave find themselves athiest or agnostic.
I must agree however, that some of the searching does lead to conclusions that many answers to questions cannot be proved (yet). Having said this, there are plenty of JW teachings which we can get the truth on.
And there are others, where we will just have to wait.
Should this conclusion stop us looking ? No way. because we all can search and become better Christians at the same time.Reply by Warp Speed on 2019-02-04 10:27:15
Hi LJ,
Thanks for the response. My point is that in continually trying to rebuff Watchtower teachings, we are spinning our wheels and diverting ourselves from truly beginning our journey with Christ.
Sure, there are newly "awakening" ones visiting this site. This site is indeed beneficial for those as it certainly was for me.
For ones like us though, LJ, I have to wonder how beneficial it is for us to continue to "trash" teachings that we determined to be false years ago.
Wouldn't the time and energy be better spent focusing on our journey forward, instead of looking in our rear-view mirror forever?......Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-02-04 21:46:58
Hi Warp Speed,
Very well put, but I hope you plan on sticking around to lend your experience, like you just did in your post above.
Everyone has to be somewhere, and I think this is a "mighty" fine place to be, would you not agree? This life doesn't end just because we get a little tired of knocking WT. We still gotta live with what we know and think to be true and what was for some, bred into.
Always good to hear your voice of reason, I hope you and yours are doing fine.
Psalmbee
Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-02-04 20:02:25
Good morning to all
At the out set let me say Warp speed I am with you 100%, I stated before why do we spend so much time and energy on what WT & GB is teaching or doing or what they should be doing!
Jesus said Gods word is alive and exerts power, so why dont we STUDY it, I mean we have great thinkers among us that are producing great articles, so again why dont we take a few chapters of the bible and examine them so we can stir the thinking of fellow witnesses, its beyond me to understand just WHY do we have to be sniffing the back side of the WT & GB.
I posed this question before and was told, maybe this site is not for you, as we like to expose WT & GB teaching.
OK i get it and so all who visit this site, WT & GB are FALSE teachers, so can we move ON please, I am starving spiritually and I am sure their are others like myself who cannot stand to read or hear what the great GB is doing, BUT we LOVE to hear what the bible is teaching and to reason from it.
Was Jesus so consumed with the TEACHING of religious leaders this week, this month, or he taught his disciples to be well versed with Gods word.
I wonder is their anyone of us that is going to voice their opinion at WT study and say what they think of the WT and the GB teaching? I am not.
What does 'Don't stop and kick at every dog that barks at you' mean?
If we stop to kick at every dog that barks at us we will never arrive at our destination in life, because we are obsessed with righting insignificant wrongs that should have no more effect on us than a dog that barks as we walk by.
Warp speed thanks again.Reply by Sharon on 2019-02-04 20:41:42
Jamesbrown, (this is my first reply so I hope it works out okay.) I agree with you that the Watchtower just uses it's own thoughts but they should study the Bible for their information. That's why I was never a happy JW. That is what a Christian should do is study and read the Bible instead of studying the Watchtower publications.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-02-04 21:33:53
Hello all,
James Brown, you say you are starving Spiritually. We all may be a little hungry but Christ feeds his sheep in rations and we are all relying on those rations. JW.ORG needs reviewed, their teachings need scrutinized. We all have loved ones rooted in the Org, whether living or already dead, the record will be set straight. I can appreciate your "eager anticipation", I've been there and still get there at times, but True Christian Love must endure the patience, one of the toughest things that we all encounter.
Be patient, the gang is all here. the Situation must be right. Jesus Christ will not be late. Get strong with Jesus and you just might not get so hungry.Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-02-05 00:55:24
Psalmbee and to all my friends
This website has taught me to check the source material where paragraphs are quoted from, and that means I am forced to read WT & have GB teaching again in my mind & that makes me very angry about what I am reading.
If Jesus was alive today, how much time would he spend on the false teachings of jw.org, would he turn around tell his disciples to devote their time and energy on JW false teaching?
I want to ask you: If there was NO jw.org, what would happen to the Beroean Pickets? Pick on another org that we THINK they are not teaching the right thing?
Psalmbee, you might not like how I respond, I asked myself this question: Was Jesus constantly scrutinising the religious leaders of his day, or was it the other way around?
You said: We all may be a little hungry but Christ feeds his sheep in rations and we are all relying on those rations. JW.ORG needs reviewed, their teachings need scrutinised.
Psalmbee, if Jesus heard you say the above, wouldn’t he say just as any wise person would “Why are you going back to smell the VOMIT, and pock a stick in it? A vomit is still a vomit, its not going to change”.
I am not picking on you Psalmbee, but if you are talking to someone about Jehovah and Jesus, would you start by telling them what the WT teaching is and then open your bible to show them the true teaching of the father and son? I don’t think so.
This org has been going for more than 100 years and keeps adding numbers to it, almost 8.5 million active JW’s now, are they on the right track? No, are they helping people to change their life for the better? Yes.
Are all Christian religions and sects helping people to become better Christians? Yes
Are JW on the same level as all Christian religions? Yes. Do we all have the same hope? Yes.
I think if I am going to knock a religion or sect that’s built on Jesus as the foundation weather on the right track or not, doesn’t that make me God the almighty? Isn’t that what Eve wanted?
When I go preaching, I don’t preach the WT, I have the bible in my hand as the sword of the spirit, I don’t ask people to review the WT or jw.org, why don’t I do that? Its because I will be promoting false teaching.
JW is a transport for my preaching that’s all and if I can help someone to see the light from Gods word then I have got Jesus blessing, that all.
Love to all and I will be patient as you suggest.Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-02-05 09:06:23
Hi James Brown,
This website is not only dedicated to going back and smelling the vomit but also dedicated to cleaning up the vomit (Is 19:14). You suit yourself, but it seems like you keep returning here to this site, like a man who is staggering around in his own vomit. Catch a grip and hold on tight (Pr 23:8).
Reply by Tadua on 2019-02-05 15:48:49
Dear James Brown
I can feel your pain. Our aim is not to get the Organization to change, although that would benefit all those still trapped in the Organization. But there are many looking for a way out, without losing their faith. Also the smell of the vomit reminds us why we should keep away from it.
In addition we do endeavour to provide fresh food solely scripturally based. All takes time. We have many ideas, but currently not enough hours in the day to bring them all to fruition. But there are a number of topics in preparation that are solely scripturally based with the aim of restoring confidence in God's Word.
Be assured of our best intentions and endeavours.
Your brother in Christ
Tadua
Comment by Sharon on 2019-02-04 20:54:48
I think Eric/Meleti has said in his videos that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous at two different time periods. I had never thought about the resurrection being separate occurrences but it would seem logical. Also, at John 5:29 "those who did good things to a resurrection of life and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment". That doesn't sound like the good resurrection will be the same as the one who practiced vile things and I would hope that I would not have the bad judgment.-
Comment by wild olive on 2019-02-05 03:54:28
This article is one of the main reasons I believe that the earthly hope is the only hope, that includes the anointed of Christ , they are going to rule here with Christ as glorified immortal humans, not disembodied spirits, that has always been the hope of Israel, its only till the Greek influence arrived through the early church fathers that the idea of heaven took hold
Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-02-05 23:54:58
Tadua, you are a wise person and many thanks for your advise.
Psalmbee...... This is how you react at conversations. A blast from your PAST:
In reply to Robert-6512.
Hi Robert,
That was a scolding to a very high degree. We must remember that this site is focused on the awakening JW’s and those that are slumbering. Tadua is doing what he thinks is best for that targeted group, and I think you owe him an apology even if you are right. There is plenty of places to get spiritual food if you’re hungry. Your advanced state needs a little nourishing in my opinion, let the flock eat the morsels in this field, if they don’t like it, they will find another field.
A Thought on the JW.org/UN Petition Letter 8/6/2018
Psalmbee,
Far be it from me to stifle conversation or avoid controversies. I am sure there are still some irate readers that don’t care much for me, though that was never my intent.
But, having said that, I feel your tone is too confrontational and abrasive. I can see where telling people “It’s time to pick up your cross and carry it, don’t hide it.” is going to offend them and hurt their feelings.
I personally believe that WT is a false religion and part of Babylon the Great, and that we should have no part of it whatsoever. But even I wouldn’t go that far to say what you did. Your words amount to a command – a harsh one at that.
You need to calm down. Everyone on this forum has been provided with enough information to guide their heart and conscience as to what the right course of action is for their own lives. We need to respect that and allow people to make up their own minds, even if we personally might not agree with the choices made by any one individual.
Being strident and demanding and impatient doesn’t really work for most people. You will just make them feel bad by doing that.
It’s not our job to be the conscience of other people. It’s hard enough doing it for ourselves.
8/6/2018
I wonder if Jesus when he was having nails driven through his hands and feet was saying I wish you would stop because I’m such a sensitive person and I don’t know if I can handle this or not? (Ro 6:3)
It’s time to pick up your cross and carry it, don’t hide it.
7/6/2018
In reply to Warp Speed.
Warp Speed you said: You have the gall to tell all of us ex-JW’s to “get out”, when in fact you were never “in”.
First of all, let’s understand the meaning of ex-JW’s, I don’t fit that description, perhaps you may if that’s the way you identify yourself at the Kingdom Hall or is it just here you do that?
Warp asked: What was your excuse for never getting baptised?
I don’t have an excuse, The Lord Jesus has always told me not to do that yet, therefore I don’t need an excuse when some man asks me.
Remember Eric favourite scripture when I lose it: Let your words be gracious seasoned with salt.
I still love you my brother.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-02-06 09:01:32
Hi JB
it seems to me that getting to the truth on any subject involves either starting from scratch or starting from where we are. The knowledge most us bring here is a combination of JW teachings which we agree with and JW teachings which we do not agree with. I am open to teachings from all over the place, as long as they harmonise with the Bible. I then do my best to sort out what I can accept for the moment, and those that I think are wrong.
However, it is hardly surprising that in realising that many of the things we have been taught are wrong, this makes us somewhere between bitter and angry. After all we had put a lot into the "Organisation". Of course we want to find truth and discuss spiritual things with others (here) who totally trust the Scriptures. However, there are few topics we can discuss which have not been influenced by past and present JW teachings. So we have to undo the wrong first. It is not always meant as an attack, even if that is how it seems.
This is a site of JWs, fading JWs, and ex JWs, and others in between, so it is quite natural that we want to get behind the untruths that we have been taught. Was that not how some of us felt about religions that we were brought up with ?
Whatever subject is raised on this platform we will probably find that WT already has something to say on it. Indeed many articles have been presented here which are simply open discussions such as "What does the Bible say about ....". This week's Watchtower lends itself to just that sort of discussion. It is a base. And it is spiritual food. We would all like to know exactly what Jesus meant.
Critical thinking involves taking all the information we can and sorting out the true and the false. How else do we do it ?
I am most grateful to you all here for having stirred my critical thinking, whatever your opinions may be. Do please continue to do so.
We study history so we can learn from the errors of the past. We have to learn the errors so we do not run into them ourselves. At least that is how I see it.Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-02-06 16:45:14
Dear LJ
As I was reading your words, my heart cried with joy, you are truly a lover of God, your words of encouragement has eternally touched my heart.
Thank you LJ
Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-02-06 09:09:58
Thank you James Brown, and I still love you too. I have said a lot of things on this site that I got reprimanded and moderated for, I'm the first one to admit that. I have been on moderation for several months at a time,but to be honest that only made me respect this site and the people who run it. Yeah I was a little mad at first but not anymore.
When you said what you did in one of your posts it reminded me of me and I just wanted to speak up about it. While it is true that I'm not the average ordinary awakening JW, and have said things here that I should not have said, I am still grateful that I can still participate here.
At any rate, let me apologize to you for putting to much salt in the wound. I enjoy your comments personally, but just like some of my comments that have been made, they don't fit in here. I'm not the type to hold a grudge and hope you can understand where I'm coming from.
Psalmbee (Ec 7:8)Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-02-06 17:05:11
Psalmbee
I love what you write, and yes you are right, sometimes my emotions get the better of me, I cannot talk to my wife as she worships the ground GB walks on, so the only place I get to say what I can say is on this site, and Psalmbee, this is STUPID of me, as I love you all very,very much.
EC 7:8 Is so true, thanks again my brother.
Comment by Warp Speed on 2019-02-06 16:55:30
Hello to all,
Wow! 18 comments already. I believe this is a good thing. So encouraging to hear from everyone.
By the way Tadua, I would like to say thanks for your continued hard work on your WT Reviews. I do believe these are needed for those who are still active JWs who need a "place to go" that isn't outwardly intimidating. When I was waking up a few years ago this site was the only one I would dare allow myself to visit. I'm certain that is still the case for many awakening Witnesses. I'm certain it will continue to help many to reason on erroneous Org teachings.
With that being said, there seems to be many of us here that are more than convinced that Watchtower is bogus. Speaking for myself, there are times when re-hashing their "bogusness" only makes me more angry. I think most of us who have already commented thus far on this thread can relate to what I'm saying.
I guess someone could rightfully say, "Don't read the review if it upsets you", and they would be correct in saying so.
Here's the thing though- I love the fellowship with everyone here. Because of that, I'm just trying to encourage all to share in moving forward and help each other in our journey.
Sometimes it just seems like trying move forward while at the same time looking behind, can be burdensome instead of up building.
Can anyone relate?Reply by Tadua on 2019-02-06 19:05:37
Hi Warp speed
Rest assured I certainly can. It’s all the nice comments and interchange between readers that helps keep me going. I read them all, even if I don’t comment.
Trust me it gets very frustrating at times reviewing the same insipid or incorrect material that is perpetually peddled as spiritual food from God. Trying to get the balance between highlighting error and encouraging others is also a difficult balance to get. It is actually a relief when there is some time to write a WT publication free article. So much more refreshing and exciting. However, I constantly have to remind myself what would the disciples etc understood was being said here, as there is so much baggage of false religion in our society at large and in the Organization, which can color one’s understanding if we are not careful. It will take a number of years to be 95% free of our former indoctrination.
Further to the series about Mankind’s Hope which is solely Bible based, tonight I was doing some research into the Early Church Fathers writings and what was said about resurrection and heaven. That has proved to be very interesting and has served to corroborate the conclusions I came to earlier, now in the articles. Your brother
Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-02-06 20:40:06
Warp Speed and to all who comment and write articles on this website, I just want to say thank you for your persistence, and research into so many faith building subjects that truly makes my brain cells jump for joy.
The way we encourage and commend one another is truly amazing, and the hard work that Tadua and the way he reasons is diffidently backed by Jehovah's Spirit, I am extremely grateful for that.
The org always mentions that we should offer commendation to one another for the hard work that our brothers who are taking the lead, but in the actual fact they NEVER do. Let me give you an-example of what I am saying:
A brother that I know very well happen to step down from being an MS due to family reasons and work commitment.
An announcement was made “brother so & so is no longer an MS". And then the speaker went to conclude the meeting with song and prayer.
After the meeting, it was said, the way it was announced he must have done something wrong, as they Never thanked him for the hard work that he put in helping the brothers and sisters.
To this day he is very bitter with the elders, the way they treated him from the platform.
Similar thing happen to an elder, his family is devastated at the way it was announced.
I asked an elder if the org has changed its policy in the way the announcement is made after telling him what happened, his reply was " it all depends who you are, if you are just an MS and you had no impact on the congregation, then that’s it". So yes, it all depends on who you are.
My emotions got the better of me, so I said, "if my name was Jeffery Jackson, he interrupted me and said NOW we are talking, as a matter of fact we will be shorting the meeting to thank JJ for all the hard work he has done".
Again, I would like to thank all who comments on this website no matter how long or short your comment is.
May Jehovah's blessing be with you allReply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-02-07 04:54:38
Hi JB, and thanks for your encouraging reply further down the page. When I came off the BOE that bland announcement was all there was. My family were livid !
Unfortunately, all the elders seem to be bound by what it says in the Shepherding book" , which simply says that the announcement is "brother o and so is no longer serving as an elder(or M/S " (or something very similar). So because the book says nothing to allow any embellishment, then that is all we get. One bland announcement. An elder with 40 years of service, who comes off for health (or other valid) reasons gets the same announcement as one who has come close to a Judicial committee meeting.
Even when a disfellowshipping announcement is made, no one seems to be able to begin it with "I have a sad announcement. Brother so and so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses".
It is another case where no one seems prepared to "Go beyond the things that are written" and use a little common sense.
Even when speaking about Judas was not afraid so speak a few words about that man, after he had killed himself. Also, did not Paul remind the Colossians, at ch 4:6) "Let your utterance always be gracious, seasoned with salt...".
May we all continue to serve Jehovah and Jesus in truth
Happy picketingReply by Warp Speed on 2019-02-07 07:55:22
Hi LJ and JB,
Same announcement for me also. There is no flexibility given for anyone. It's the same wording whether you were removed (for sin) or stepped-down for personal reasons. This is intentional (it nurtures fear and distrust which helps control the rank and file.)
What a fine Christian attitude.....
Reply by Warp Speed on 2019-02-10 09:18:05
O
Comment by messenger on 2019-02-07 23:33:28
I implore all commenters to please not be angry with Watchtower. When we believed it was God's instrument we used to defend it to our deaths. Those still believing in it who read here still do. You can understand what response our expressing anger towards their cherished org. might illicit.
More importantly that anger can harm us. For it might identify us to Christ as judges rather than God's messengers to humanity and brothers and sisters of each other.
One WT ploy is that it's written many of us who leave are bitter,even though it knows many aren't. And we don't have to be, even if we've been abused inside the organization. Look to our master's example, and let him be the judge.
I speak against WT for the same reason I spoke against other religious organizations when I witnessed as a JW. If our intent is to help others gain life then we are speaking for the reason Christ told us to speak.
On this Site and other websites I warn of Watchtower's apostasy. Because I believe some individuals inside WT will be judged adversely because of following WT. But that's the only reason I speak against WT. If I believed following WT didn't endanger some, but instead it just taught some wrong biblical ideas I wouldn't comment about it at all.
Some discussion has arising about why we offer negative comments against WT. For most of us their reason might be the same as mine. WT has set it self up as a judge, thereby partially fulfilling the man of lawlessness that comes into the temple of God setting himself up as a god, and judging everything else declared to be holy. Only Christ has that biblical position. Therefore WT and those who present that idea to the world are in a very dangerous position.
If you were an elderly, you should especially be glad you woke up to that danger, because you were taking the lead in that heresy, which could have put you in a position more likely to receive judgment from Christ. You have something to be glad about. If you are angry let that thought help help remove your anger.
We are Christ's messengers that's all. None of us are judges. And the people Christ will judge should be pitied not hated.
Best wishes to you all. Your good works are appreciated by God.Reply by messenger on 2019-02-07 23:41:40
In my comment above ARISING SHOULD BE ARISEN. ELDERLY SHOULD BE ELDER.
I have auto fill on my phone which has its own mind and sometimes changes my words.
Comment by tyhik on 2019-02-08 17:03:48
Tadua, thank you very much for your continued hard work!
Just a thought about the heavenly hope. Rev 7:15
"That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple [naos]; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."
The word translated as temple above is the Greek word 'naos'. The following verses specify the location of the naos as being in heaven.
Rev 11:19
"And the temple sanctuary [naos] of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. ..."
Rev 14:17
"And still another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary [naos] that is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. ..."
The fact that NWT translators have at times translated 'naos' as 'temple' and other times as 'temple sanctuary' shows just their bias. According to lexicons, naos is the central sanctuary building excluding the temple courts etc.
Comment by chicho on 2020-02-29 03:09:48
Hermano wilson, tengo varias cosas que decirle. Lei el articulo de la atalaya y creame que es de las pocas veces que ponen solo dos o tres citas biblicas, No usaron mas. Y al contrario, citaron a un Catolico (no que los catolicos son lo peor, la gran ramera? Porque citar a un catolico???) Y citaron a un musulman o estudioso judio de la biblia que por cierto temieron dar el nombre (muy raro), pero alguien en un video de youtube si investigo quien era. Eso me hace pensar que el Paraiso que por tantos años nos han metido en la cabeza a usted hermano Wilson por mas años que a mi, NO ES REAL. En la biblia no hay un solo texto que mencione que David, Abrahan, Noe o incluso usted y yo viviremos eternamente en la tierra. Si les dice Jehova tu descendencia la bendecire, si dice que habra paz y que los animales seran mansos y habra mucha gente buena ya que sera un gobierno de Dios, pero jamas dice que David o Abrahan vivirian en ese tipo de gobernacion terrestre. Y lo ilustro con este ejemplo, si yo que soy de mexico digo mi familia (descendencia) vivira eternamente en este pais, que doy a entender? Que cada generaciln vivira por siempre? No, significa que todo descendiente mio vivira siempre en el pais pero no que tendran vida infinita. Y eso es lo que Jehova les prometio, que sus descendientes o hijos siempre estaran en paz en un Reino a futuro gobernado correctamente por Jehova. El articulo de la Atalaya carece de sustento biblico asi como la creencia de un Paraiso terrestre en el cual viviran todos nuestros seres queridos que ha muerto que la JW nos ha enseñado, ya que de esa forma nos ha manipulado. Ahora veamos lo que dice la biblia sobre Paraiso: Jesus lo menciomo, ya lo dijo usted hermano Wilson, pero de ahi ningun apostol lo menciono, y Jesus lo hizo de forma muy vaga. Pablo fue el segundo que menciono el Paraiso, y fue en 2 Corintios 12:2-4 donde dice que vio un Tercer Cielo, y que ese es el Paraiso, y ahora leamos Deutoronomio 10:14 menciona el tercer cielo pero de otra forma. Tal vez lo que piensen otras religiones sobre lo que pasa despues de la muerte no sea tan equivocada, que se va al "cielo" es decir una pocision inferior a Dios y probablemente eso sea el Paraiso que Jesus le prometio al malhechor. Quedan muchas dudas aun, los Judios no tienen claro que sucede despues de la muerte, y queda claro que Jesus vino a enseñarnos que habra gente que Herede el Reino de los Cielos y que habra una vida eterna de alguna forma Juan 17:3. Nos estaremos equivocando al pensar como la JW quiere que pensemos? Porque suena muu bonito decir que viviremos en la Tierra felices y veremos a nuestros seres queridos y tendremos nuestta propia casa y kugaremos con animales salvajes, no sera otra forma de manipulacion de la JW? Saludos hermano Wilson