Uphold the Truth About Death

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-06-18 03:17:15

Hi Tadua. Interesting thought on 1 John 4 about the demons imitating the holy spirit. Neither Barnes notes nor Calvin's commentaries indicate that the WT view is actually wrong, in this case. Mind you there may be other helpful references. Can you point me in the direction to support what you have said ?
I agree that the word is spirit, as it also is at 1 Tim 4:1 and many other places. We also must consider verses 2-3 in 1 John, which certainly would go better with the idea that the demons were speaking. Indeed most teachers of God's word will confess Jesus, but is that enough to suggest the demons are behind those utterances, as surely John would have made that more plain if it were the case. But again, that is an assumption.

It is good to present ideas so we can openly discuss them like this, something that seems impossible these days with Witnesses,without having the "Do you think you know more than the faithful slave" thrown in the air.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Thanks for all the hard work you do, my friend.

Comment by messenger on 2019-06-18 20:41:09

The ones referred to at 1Tim 4:1 speaking false inspired utterances and in the scriptures in 1John chapter 4 are people not demons. Teachings come from demons yes, but spoken by men and women. And in 1 John he is not telling readers to determine if assertions are false simply on the basis of whether they acknowledge Christ as coming in the flesh. He also included if the person asserting the expression was listening to the spiritual teachings of John and that group that started the Christian congregation. " Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.” 1 John 4:6

The apostles led by God taught certain things about Christ, like, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 which is a teaching by the same author that said above, those who know God listen to us. Anyone not listening according to John's words is an Antichrist. Of course common sense tells us listening includes receiving those teachings.

The inspired expressions, though inspired by this world's rebellious spirit against God initiated by demons, are spoken by men. Some of those types of teachings are defined in scripture as teaching Christians that they MUST do things God never said they must, like not getting married, not eating certain foods. The teachings focus on what men not led by God teach other Christians they must do. OBEYING those type of FAKE spiritual rules set by FAKE Christians is what John was warning against, as Peter also did. Note that some of the teachings cited in those scriptures focus on actions not merely beliefs.

It appears to be human nature that gives men the will to attain positions over men and set rules. Even the apostles probably would have done that if not for God. Their history with Christ suggests that could have been their behavior, if not for God. What stopped them was Holy Spirit. Take away Holy Spirit and the dominant spirit of this world, that WT taught us about, coupled with man's nature causes this reaction from men. Demons don't need to come out and directly talk to some people to bring this about. Notice how WT's teaching is an example, and yet WT claims no supernatural force communicates with its members. Matthew 24:45, the faithful and discreet slave that Jehovah's Witnesses are taught they MUST OBEY to KNOW GOD, is definitely one of these inspired utterances delivered by WT. Because Christ never put WT in the position WT claims he did. Thus that is an inspired expression from demons, because it falsely teaches it is the ONLY way to receive God's grace short of dying before the great tribulation today. Christ said only HE is the way, nothing else. That's why the apostles, and most notably Paul (but others said it too) only preached Christ. Thus John claimed any expression to be from God acknowledges Christ (who he is-not just that he came in the flesh). How do we know? Because he also said the one making the expression must listen to him (John) and those with John. John taught a lot more about who Christ is than that he came in the flesh.

According to scripture Christians pleasing to God must listen to the apostles, as John stated above, and they must listen to Christ. In the final days before the great tribulations Christians are said to be mingled among many other people, even in their places of formalized worship. Therefore they must be separated by Christ. They are not separated by any human organization. There is no faithful and discreet organization in the final days proceeding the great tribulation. The faithful and discreet slave is merely a metaphor for ALL individual faithful Christians. In the same way those other parables around it are describing all faithful Christians- the virgins with their lamps etc.- so the faithful and discreet slave represents all Christians who remain faithful to Christ.

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." Christ does this, not Watchtower. Even in the parable itself the faithful slave is not given a task of separating Christians.

• Reply by Tadua on 2019-06-22 14:21:31

  Hi Messenger
  I am interested in why you come to the conclusion that “the ones referred to at 1 Timothy 4:1 … and in 1 John 4 are people not demons”.
  1 Timothy 4:1 in an interlinear Bible says “But the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons” which I believe proves exactly the point I was making. It means that some would take notice of deceitful spirits rather than the Holy Spirit. Satan and the demons love to corrupt everything good. One only has to look at early Christian writings to see this, and evidence of deceitful spirits. The Montanists in particular, Montanus the founder and his female companions Prisca and Maximilla believed they had the Holy Spirit and the gift of prophesying, in particular of new teachings. “A criticism of Montanism was that its followers claimed their revelation received directly from the Holy Spirit could supersede the authority of Jesus or Paul the Apostle or anyone else.”
  Source reference quoted on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism
  This was already a problem in the Apostle Paul’s time as noted in 2 Corinthians 11:4 “For, as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or YOU receive a spirit other than what YOU received, or good news other than what YOU accepted, YOU easily put up [with him]. “
  “A spirit other than what you received” must refer to a wicked spirit as they had received Holy Spirit at baptism.
  
  I agree with you that teachings are spoken out loud by men and women, but they got these teachings from the thoughts the wicked spirits put in their minds and mouths as they allowed the wicked spirits to use them, while thinking mistakenly they had the Holy Spirit.
  Why else would Paul warn the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 12:3 “Therefore I would have YOU know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit.”
  
  He also warned about these deceitful spirits in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 “However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.” Clearly the inspired expression here would not be coming from Jesus and the Holy spirit but rather the wicked spirits trying to mislead the Christians who would then repeat or speak those wrongly inspired expressions.
  Notice that the deceitful spirits would not want to speak about “Jesus being Lord”, but would want to contradict the received good news, by saying “Jesus is accursed”, “Jesus did not come in the flesh”, “the day of the Lord is here”. Of course, it was a composite warning as to how to discern the spirit upon a Christian was not the holy spirit, but a wicked spirit, teaching contrary to the received Good News.
  
  The example i quoted above of the founder Montanists is a prime example. They prophesied with spirit, but it was the wicked spirits that were speaking through them as they contradicted what John and the other apostles had taught about the good news.
  
  Finally the entire context of 1 Corinthians 12:3 from 1 Corinthians 12:1 to 1 Corinthians 14:40 is discussing this problem of gifts of prophesying and speaking in tongues and interpretation, and how to use these gifts properly and identifying it as a gift from God rather than the demons.

  • Reply by messenger on 2019-06-23 01:29:44

    The LAST DAYS spoken of in scripture is not necessarily referring to a time period proceeding the end of the Jewish system of things. Once Christ died the days for this present system were numbered. That's how I view the Bible's Last Days. Not that there are two periods, and I don't believe the apostles were referring to the Jewish system at all but to the whole worldly system with that reference.
    
    2 Peter 3-"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
    
    Speaking about the utterances you believe must be actually spoken by demons to people. In that case then you should not believe that any of WT teachings fit into this category. As WT claims its members have no supernatural contact, demons could not have told WT anything. Yet WT was influenced, or inspired, to develop its false teachings “by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies.” (1Tim 4: 2) Demonic inspiration without necessitating direct communications from demons can cause people to develop certain types of teachings. WT’s teachings are inspired by demons in the way this whole world’s attitude against God is inspired by Satan, and originated through him. That’s what 1 Tim 4:1 says, “Inspired utterances,” it doesn’t say those were spoken by demons to people that passed them on to others. The examples of teachings given in those scriptures focus on things people teach that are taught by presumptuous and judgmental people. They are commanding Christians to comply with their wishes, and forbidding Christians from actions they claim are forbidden, but aren't found in scripture.
    
    1 Timothy 4:3 mentions that some of these inspired teachings prohibit Christians from getting married and eating certain foods. It’s common knowledge the Catholic church teaches both of those things. Yet read the information below from the Catholic Catechism and the Encyclopedia Britannica. The Catholic Church, similar to WT, teaches its members they do not have Holy Spirit talk to them. And similar to WT it teaches its members they MUST gain knowledge of scriptures through the church. That idea is included in 1 John 4 when accepting the doctrines of the apostles. Yet look how far apart WT teachings are from Catholicism. The teachings of these two and similar groups, so far apart and so ridged (TEACHING YOU MUST ACCEPT WHAT I TEACH) is what those scriptures speak of. Because they go beyond what God requires. Thus people follow men instead of God. As it’s been discussed here that can have many negative consequences. Included among those are minimizing Christ, and judging other groups of Christians adversely.
    
    Catechism of the Catholic church-687 "No one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."7Now God's Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance, but the Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit who "has spoken through the prophets" makes us hear the Father's Word, but we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith. The Spirit of truth who "unveils" Christ to us "will not speak on his own."8 Such properly divine self-effacement explains why "the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him," while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them.
    
    Encyclopaedia Britannica
    Papal infallibility, in Roman Catholic theology, the doctrine that the pope, acting as supreme teacher and under certain conditions, cannot err when he teaches in matters of faith or morals. As an element of the broader understanding of the infallibility of the church, this doctrine is based on the belief that the church has been entrusted with the teaching mission of Jesus Christ and that, in view of its mandate from Christ, it will remain faithful to that teaching through the assistance of the Holy Spirit. As such, the doctrine is related to, but distinguishable from, the concept of indefectibility, or the doctrine that the grace promised to the church assures its perseverance until the end of time.
    
    Relevant points:
    POINT#1 “But we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith.”
    POINT#2 As for papal infallibility, “This doctrine is based on the belief that the church has been entrusted with the teaching mission of Jesus Christ and that, in view of its mandate from Christ,” it will remain faithful to that teaching through the assistance of the Holy Spirit
    
    Point one is essentially what WT teaches about WT. Point two only diverts from WT’s teaching about itself in that WT does not teach it’s infallible; but it has taught from its beginning that no one can understand the Bible without accepting WT interpretations. Thus the reason I claimed WT teachings come from demons even though it, like the Catholic Church, doesn’t claim to receive direct communication with God.
    
    So, as shown the exact examples of these demonic inspired expressions (preventing marriage and eating of certain foods)that are listed at 1 Tim chapter 4 are taught by the world’s largest Christian group that also teaches its members Holy Spirit DOES NOT speak to them. I don’t see that your anecdotal citations have much relevance to proving your point. Just because God through Holy Spirit contacts individuals, and just because demons contact individuals, that doesn’t mean that these “inspired expressions” must exclusively be inspired through a spoken message from demons, or a direct demon contact; they could be indirectly inspired as in the cases of both WT and Catholicism. Some teachings might be inspired through direct contact; but looking at what happened to the Jewish religion, and by considering the teachings of most Christian teachers I doubt that most of these inspired expressions get spread this way.
    
    With regard to Jehovah's Witnesses being contacted by God and/or receiving some of the gifts of the Spirit. I agree with you. No doubt some Jehovah's Witness have been. But because of WT teachings I doubt if many Jehovah's Witnesses who have been contacted would continue to work with WT until they die. Also, remember WT denies such contacts. So, any members that have been contacted could not believe WT is correct about that point. And I believe Holy Spirit would lead them to see the truth about other matters also. That's why I think they would leave viewing WT as an apostate or "evil slave."

Comment by messenger on 2019-06-18 23:52:57

Hello Tadua,

Your quote, "Back in the 1st Century the early Christians had gifts of the spirit, which included prophecy, speaking in tongues, teaching and evangelising."

How would you know if these gifts of the Spirit existed in the first century but no longer exist today? And I am assuming that is your belief, not just because of your statement, but also because of what you were taught as a JW, and because of what other JWs that read on this site believe, because of what they were taught. According to the scriptures in your article God works with individuals who do what those scriptures teach, and God doesn't work with those that don't do what those scriptures teach.

I assume you spent most of your life as a Christian associating with Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses as your exclusive group in formal settings of worship. I also assume, since you write here, that you no longer believe WT is God's organization, which should lead you to realize God would not give those gifts of the spirit to Jehovah's Witnesses-at least not to ones who remain Jehovah's Witnesses. Therefore, you should not have seen those special gifts, if they exist today, because of where you were. That being the case, why do you feel you would know if those gifts exist today, since the Bible is silent about that?

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-19 03:17:18

  I need to make a correction to my last comment. The Bible is not silent on the matter as I stated, and I should not have stated that.
  
  Acts chapter 2 reads:
  
  17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
  That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
  Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
  Your young men shall see visions,
  Your old men shall dream dreams.
  18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
  I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
  And they shall prophesy.
  19 I will show wonders in heaven above
  And signs in the earth beneath:
  Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
  20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
  And the moon into blood,
  Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
  21 And it shall come to pass
  That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
  Shall be saved.’
  
  God said he will do this pouring out of his Spirit IN THE LAST DAYS. He didn't say that he would do that at the beginning of the last days only but then stop pouring it out, with the resultant effects stopping, as the last days progress. Some of those wonders (signs in heaven and on earth) that are seen are in dreams and visions God gives. That tells us not everyone would see those things. Of course eventually all alive will see the signs of the great tribulation and the sign of Christ that appears to everyone. But the dreamers and visionaries are shown parts of their futures. And not every Christian is given that experience.
  
  So, how would you know if these special gifts ended since every Christian doesn't possess them, and God usually wouldn't give those to people not following the scriptures you cite in your article? The people that surrounded you.

  • Reply by Tadua on 2019-06-22 14:15:07

    I do not think anyone can categorically state the gifts totally disappeared after the first century, although the weight of evidence gives indications that it did.
    As the Apostle Peter indicated in Acts the prophecy of Joel had a fulfillment in his days, which were the last days of the Jewish system.
    We have no clear scriptural backing to state it would be the same in a later "last days". There cannot be "last days" today if we do not know when Jesus will return.
    
    According to Jesus parable in Matthew, true christians would be wheat among weeds, so by extension some JW's could be wheatlike and hence receive gifts, especially as there is no one true religion to be found where these gifts could only be found.

• Reply by Alithia on 2019-06-19 17:31:13

  Hello Messenger and all from Alithia.
  
  The bible is not silent on this matter in fact it is vocal and explicit in the fact that these miraculous demonstrations of the "gifts of Holy Spirit" will cease.
  
  More on this when I have time on the week end. Messenger do you have any of these gifts? Do you know anyone else who has any of these gifts? What gifts are they and can you give a brief description, especially if you feel you have one or more of these gifts? I get the impression you may have a "gift".
  
  Love from Alithia.

  • Reply by messenger on 2019-06-20 03:25:41

    Hello Alithia. I didn't comment on whether the Bible states the gifts of the Spirit will be done away with. I think most here already know the scriptures state that. What I asked Tadua is how would he know IF THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT HAVE ALREADY DISAPPEARED? And I stated I am only assuming that might be his belief. I take it Alithia that most who read from this site are presently or have been Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of those who comment seem to be fairly knowledgeable about what WT teachings are, and so they probably know WT teachings on this matter. So, let me help you, since this can be explained very briefly. Why? Because the Bible only comments on any sort of spiritual gifts being done away with in one place, at 1 Corinthians 13: 8-12.
    
    First, everyone should remember that spiritual gifts, from God, were given to people throughout the Bible's historical record, from Genesis to Revelation. So, a claim the spiritual gifts don't presently exist offers no logical reason as to why they wouldn't presently exist. Why would God give those gifts to people for thousands of years, but stop before you were born, and before God's purpose for this Earth is fully realized? Because the gifts were not given to prove God exists to some people, as that argument is put forward. (If that was even a reason it was only one of the reasons; and the argument put forth the gifts started and STOPPED for that reason is an illogical reason. Because the same state exists that God desires people believe him today, just as much as in the past.) Those gifts were given by God because that's one of the means he uses to have his will done, while he uses people. And that's clear when we read the biblical history of the Jews. God wasn't proving he existed. He was getting his will done through empowering people and telling them to do it. And I repeat his purpose has not yet fully been realized today... So what's changed relative to the means in which God accomplishes his will historically and TODAY? Nothing according to scripture. In progressing his purpose according to biblical records he communicates with some, and he empowers some in ways that they know are from God, per the scripture I cited previously in ACTS, "In the LAST DAYS I shall pour out my Spirit.... "
    
    But, if you accept the WT teaching God stopped this practice of his ONCE THE BIBLE WAS COMPLETED, which WT knows is short of the time period when God's will for the Earth is to be fully realized, then you miss the obvious facts in the scriptures WT uses to deceive you. Or possibly WT is just too ignorant to see.
    
    Note also that in these dealings God has with some people THEY know it is God dealing with them, as they are told it is. (It is not some vague "we know God anointed us for a special purpose, but he never told us" that WT teaches). Historically this has been done throughout history, according to testimonies from people in the Bible, and God wrote about unnamed individuals or groups of individuals that he would deal with in like manner after the Bible was written. Also, it should be noted (something WT conceals in its teaching) that the scriptures that say certain spiritual gifts will be done away with DO NOT COMMENT ON God's act of contacting people individually at all. Therefore, to correlate the two ideas is an inappropriate interpretation of scripture. It's not even an interpretation, it's an add-on.
    
    I might be wrong Alithia, and I am not going back to look it up, but I believe on some distant page you challenged another commenter by you claiming that which is to arrive (the complete or perfect) mentioned at 1 Cor 13:10 means Love arriving. Pardon me if you didn't write that as the idea is an illogical one. To believe that idea a person would have to accept that a special love, a love beyond what the apostles had would later come to encompass the Christian congregation. Why? Because all the spiritual gifts existed while the apostles were present, and that which is complete that WILL arrive couldn't grammatically have been there due to the verb tense rendering WILL ARRIVE, instead of has arrived. (**Note my explanation as it relates to Paul and this point further down). It is also quite a contradiction to the WT teaching that practically the WHOLE church apostatized, if that's what you also accept. If you accept practically the whole church apostatized after the apostles a belief that a more complete Christian Love encompassed the church is contradictory.
    
    Now that whole thought is a distraction. And if you didn't write that I apologize for stating you even might have. Believe me I am not trying to smear your ability to interpret scripture by stating you wrote something you didn't.
    
    These are the relevant scriptures, along with Acts chapter 2 previously cited and considered:
    
    1 Corinthians 13:8-12 New International Version (NIV)
    
    8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    
    As for WT's interpretation. It denies what the scriptures are proclaiming. ** Paul died before the Bible was complete, yet in verse 12 Paul applies the time period in which these special gifts will be done away with to himself. Why would God have Paul write HE would see "when completeness comes" vs10 if God knew Paul wouldn't be around to see it in his human state, unless Paul was writing about a time period in which God knew Paul wouldn't be around in his human state? And again, Paul died before the Bible was completed. Therefore, in truth and in accuracy WT's interpretation could not be correct, since Paul died before the Bible was completed, while WT claims "that which is complete" in vs 10 means the completion of the Bible.
    
    Let's look at some of the other illogical claims of WT about this. See vs 8 "where there is knowledge, it will pass away." WT claims the knowledge that is spoken of here would also pass away "when completeness comes," and the scripture explicitly states that. But what knowledge? Paul identifies it as partial knowledge. WHO HAS PARTIAL KNOWLEDGE, and who has, or will have, complete knowledge? Think about what Paul said in vs 12. There he claimed under inspiration from God he didn't have full knowledge to replace the partial knowledge he had AT THAT TIME. But he said one day he would. Is there anyone since that time that has claimed they, as an individual or group, have a complete knowledge of every Bible interpretation, complete knowledge of God and his purpose, complete knowledge of what heaven is like, complete knowledge of being in the presence of Christ in his HEAVENLY glory? I don't know of anyone at anytime that has claimed that. And since there is no one that at least knows those things then, " when completeness comes" could not have arrived YET. Because those are the only things we can tell from the scriptures that Paul had not yet attained, but was promised by God that he would attain, that WE can know about. As Paul claims his inspired words were not written as an indistinct trumpet alarm. If there was something else Paul was to attain before this "complete or perfect arrives " he surely would have told us IN SCRIPTURE. It didn't arrive while Paul lived as a man. So he applied it's arrival to a time in his post-human existence, when he would know fully the things he wanted to know.
    
    Let's go back to Paul. It is his statement about himself that identifies what this saying, "but when completeness comes," is. Some Bibles interpret complete as "perfect" here. But it doesn't matter which word, the tell is that Paul said he would see, but that he didn't see at that time. What hadn't he experienced IN GOD'S PURPOSE at that time? He hadn't experienced the ending of God's purpose as it relates to Paul in his relationship to this Earth, people on it, and Christ. Typically WT people refer to that as the realization of God's purpose regarding the Earth. And Paul hadn't seen heaven, which would give him a broader perspective of ALL creation. We can say a complete knowledge of it, even though limited by God's perspective.
    
    Paul was only a man here on Earth. The gifts were God, not Paul. Paul experienced those like the other people who saw them. He had no ability aside from someone else doing those things that were supernatural. The partial knowledge was Paul's. The complete knowledge is complete because that is God, from God, or however you want to characterize it. Partial knowledge means you don't have all the facts. It disappears when all the facts are known and becomes "complete," or it can be characterized as "perfect" e.g. it could be asked of someone, Do you have a perfect or complete account of this event in your mind? Is it partial, or is it complete?
    
    As for the prophesying being done away with. Once something is present to prophesy about it's coming wouldn't make any sense. So of course that prophesying would be done away with. Just as certain prophesying regarding what would become of the Jewish nation ceased once the particular prophecies were fulfilled. You don't prophesy about what already happened. The same could be said about the PURPOSE of those gifts these scriptures speak about disappearing. Once Christ comes, what purpose would they serve, and if still present then, once God's purpose is fully realized, what purpose would they serve?
    
    In response to your question, the answer is yes.

Comment by Alithia on 2019-06-23 03:09:48

Hello Messenger and love to all others too.

As promised Messenger I will respond to your question of Tadua around the idea of people today possessing miraculous gifts of the spirit as our brothers had in the first Century. And why we could safely conclude these miraculous abilities have ceased.

I want to take a different approach to begin with.

Firstly you have not replied as to whether you have any of these special gifts, and if you have which ones?
You have not stated as requested if you know of any others you are closely familiar with who possess any of these special gifts, which ones they have and how they are evidenced.

Back to all of this latter, but please reply if you can answer to any of these questions above as it would assist greatly if you have an actual example no less one from you that is supportive of your point. I was hoping your personal experiences could enlighten us further on this matter of the “gifts of the spirit” and if they continue today as they did in the first Century.

Now I would like to generalise about many today or in the recent past who claim or have claimed to have been, “contacted” by God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, or have had miraculous powers of the Holy Spirit and how they were manifested in their lives, in their ministry and in the way they interacted with fellow believers, the world around them in general, and importantly how this corresponds to the scriptures.

Messenger, for someone who is so strident in advancing your ideas on this subject I think we all would like to know of your special capabilities if you have any, of anyone you may know past or present. I am not being facetious here at all.

Keeping in mind what John said at 1 John chapter 4 about testing the spirits and knowing truth and untruth and how we can know we have truth by the love amongst ourselves based on the example of our Lord Jesus who revealed the mind of God to us, and whether any of these manifestations could agree with the teachings of the apostles.

I want to throw out there a few examples that speak for themselves. I will not pass any judgements. Anyone can make up their own minds.

Firstly Joseph Smith who founded the Mormon religion. Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormons is a fantastic epic story of God/Jesus contacting a person and imparting special knowledge. Joseph Smiths account is of a spirit appearing to him in a fantastic bright light that transfixed him for some time and after which directed him to the gold scripted tablets in the woods of what later became known as the book of Mormons.
Now make what you think of the above, you may need to do some reading and research on Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion and their exotic belief system.
1. Joseph Smith prior to this spirit visitation was heavily steeped in the occult.
2. On public record he was charged with sorcery by the State.
3. He was charged with a Federal offence for creating another currency.
4. He practiced and encouraged others to practice polygamy.
5. He had sex with underage girls.
6. He had sex with other men’s wives.
7. He was implicated in murder.
8. He dragged thousands of people across rugged land (to what is now Utah Salt Lake City), to many of their deaths.
9. He was exposed as a fraud based on some interpretations of some ancient Egyptian artefacts.
10. He was a racist.
11. Claimed God used him as a prophet, and that he was better than Jesus who did not finish the job fully, or properly that God gave him. (Another gospel)

Messenger, if you have any knowledge of the Mormon religion and Joseph Smith you may be able to add to this list extensively.

Mmmmmmmm, I deliberate and consider in the light of Johns words if the spirits in Smithies life were of the benevolent or the malevolent kind??????
Speak to any active committed Mormon and like the witnesses they will immediately back pedal on this one and steer the conversation elsewhere!

And what about our “fair lady” Ellen White who was instrumental in the foundation of the Seven Day Adventist religion?

From her own accounts and those of those closest to her she exhibited many “spiritual gifts”.
1. She could stand holding a 5 pound bible in an outstretched hand for hours while she spoke in an “automatic “fashion guided by spirits.
2. Often in a trance while in her bed she would adopt a semi erect bodily position in a rigid state (that is humanely impossible to maintain for more than a few seconds), for hours on end as she “spoke” communicating the “messages” from the spirit world. (from god)
3. She wrote “automatically” extensively while in a trance like state.
4. She had visions that she recorded or were recorded by others.
5. Claimed she was a prophet from God.
6. Wrote about what one could or could not eat.
7. Extensively contradicted herself in her writings, period.
8. Established doctrines that contradict the scriptures and are not based on scripture. (another gospel)

Again I muse as to whether Ellen White was guided by spirits of the goody or the baddy kind??? What is your opinion Messenger? Are these the kind of “gifts of the spirit” you may be referring to that still continue to manifest themselves in our day or are there other things or manifestations you would point to?

Now let me give you some firsthand personal experiences of mine of some who claim they had these gifts described in scripture by way of “contact” or a message by God or Jesus or an angel sent by God or Jesus or an angel of God. Because my wife and I were heavily harassed by demonic activity when we first got married it seems that God used us on many occasions to help liberate many who were in the grip of demonic influence. Most of the time it was due to many thinking they were in receipt of the Holy Spirit in the first instance after which their predicament rapidly declined, until they took stock and retraced their steps and reconsidered the source of these “gifts”.

One lovely lady who was troubled took an interest in spiritual things and a study ensued with my wife. The lady who was of extreme physically beautiful really enjoyed the things she was learning and began to have a real hope for the future as described in scripture. Unfortunately her interest in spiritual things extended to those who convinced her they could help her get the “gifts of the spirit”.
It was only a matter of 1-2 years that the spirit/s were indicating to her that she should pull out her teeth, shave off her hair, remove her breasts and otherwise make herself quite ugly and unhealthy. (She did all those things)
In time she was convinced by these “gifts” to the point that she thought she was a prophetess and wanted to have a relationship with me as it was Gods will. In the end at the prompting of the messages she was receiving through “spiritual gifts” obediently she took her own life to be with God.

Sounds bizarre except if you knew a perfectly sound person both mentally and physically reduced in this way, to know that there is serious danger and good reason to apply what John said about testing the spirits and being very circumspect about anyone claiming to have these gifts. It is not just an academic discussion as behind every person that claims to have these “gifts” there is a story. Mostly it would seem not a very nice one. That is why I requested Messenger if you have a good story you may want to share with everyone, otherwise indicate you only want to have an academic debate.

Or another point many who claim to have these gifts, seem to profit from them. Like the Benny Hinn ministries. The healings are monologue and are not representative of the full range of healings that Jesus and the apostles performed! Not even close!

So I just thought I would throw the above out there to provide some context to my rebuttal of some of the comments you have made in response to Taduas article.

Firstly you have accepted that Paul did say explicitly these gifts would cease and be done away with. Paul also supplied the reason too. There would be no need for them. Argue all you like about it and what the time line could be for the end of them, but Paul did say that. There are many different arguments and explanations why and when, that differ from your arguments and they are at least equally valid as yours.

You mention spiritual gifts were given to God's people throughout history so why would God stop at some point in history until God's will is done, (as you understand it). Well there are examples such as Samson tearing down a building, ripping apart a Lion and a guy running faster than a chariot for miles. But this does not in any way correspond to the “gifts of the spirit” mentioned in Acts and Joel! Your argument and the proof s you present does not correspond to the point in discussion at all. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit was specific as it was practical the purpose for the declaring the good news. Not for impressing an audience. That was Elymus motive for wanting the “gifts”. Acts 13:1-12

Yep no mention of the early Christians tearing up or ripping apart anything more than unleavened bread at communion.

Who cares what WT thinks about gifts of the spirit, I do not think anyone is as hung up on WT theology as you may suggest ???

The “gifts of the spirit” did not necessarily try to prove the existence of God. The Jews already had a faith in God. The Jews constantly sought a sign from Jesus but he did not give them one. They believed in God anyway.

You mention God speaks to people who have the gifts of the spirit, they know as God has told them. Well in the few experiences I have related they all thought God had “spoken and told them”. I could relate heaps more personal firsthand experiences.

Concluding I think it is fallacious to ask Tadua to bear the burden of proof why the gifts of the spirit exist today or not. Messenger the burden of proof is with you. Both, personally to determine if you have any gifts if they are from God or if anyone else has these gifts.
Our job or anyone else is this. To test the spirits, and not necessarily to discuss academically the point without a test case!

It’s like arguing about which flavour of ice-cream tastes the best without having ice-cream to taste test! That all you are doing.

So if you or anyone you know has these gifts please share, make your point explain the manifestations and let us try with the spirit to determine if the spirits are from God?

What you say to that, fair or not?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating! If you have a gift let’s hear about it and let us put it to the test and rest your case. Otherwise debating it ultimately has no benefit. The scriptural admonition is simple and need not be a moot point without a test case.

Love to all from Alithia.

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-06-23 11:03:08

  Alithia, from the other side of this planet, may I say well put and constructed. At 1 Corinthians 13:8-9, we should note that the word for gifts is not in the original language. Also, for the expression "shall be done away with", the Greek is "katargeo" , translated "fail" in the KJ, and literally "will be made ineffective" in the Kingdom Interlinear. Vines does not like the use of "fail" and suggests "reduce to inactivity" first.
  I am not sure whether what I have said above is particularly important. What I did note, however, is all those things, prophecies, tongues, etc will cease when "that which is complete arrives". In other words, I guess, when Jesus finally comes, none of those gifts will be necessary. But we are not there yet.
  So, we are discussing a scripture which we cannot be certain we can interpret correctly. But we can build up (vs 13) faith, hope, and love, and stop being dogmatic about things we cannot be sure of. That, after all, has been the failure of JW.Org, namely being dogmatic about what they cannot be certain about, and encouraging people to rest their faith on man's interpretations.

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-25 06:11:08

  Alithia,
  
  You argue like the atheists do on JWSurvey, who cannot back up their points with facts, or relate any facts that are relevant to proving assertions. So they relate facts, like you do, that do not prove their (your) points, but are diversions to THE POINTS they (you) claim to be proving. You pointed to some people who might have been insane, or at the very least were people that everyone, at least on this site, will not take as legitimate examples of God having contacted. That was your WHOLE argument to prove God does not contact people today.
  
  Even the Sanhedrin that killed Christ did not condemn Jesus, or refute his teachings, on the basis of what someone else said or did. Why don't you throw that crazy man that today believes he's Jesus into your argument? Would that PROVE your point? It would just as much as the examples you offer. And those examples are your WHOLE argument? The rest of your comments offered zero evidence to prove the point, which you stated you were so desirous of spending several days to work on, or at least that you could not readily respond to. And I wonder why it would take you so much time to respond to this subject, as the relevant Bible scriptures aren't many.
  
  And then you ask If I will tell you about my relationship to God? Why would I share any information about me and my relationship with God, or anyone else's that I personally know of, with anyone who uses such tactics in arguing against scripture, while claiming your arguments prove a point that scriptures explicitly deny? As God stated, "In the Last Days I will pour out my Spirit." Your anecdotes prove nothing to deny that.
  
  As for Tadua's assertions, that EVIDENCE SUGGESTS the gifts of the Spirit were done away with before our day, and that Peter stated Joel's prophecy was FULFILLED at Pentecost? Notice he didn't cite any evidence, just as you have not. Because there is no evidence of that in scripture, or outside of it. Making a blanket statement like that is how they argue on JWSurvey too. It's an extremely weak approach to presenting a point one wants others to accept as factual. And the scriptures in Acts chapter 2 do not read the prophesy in Joel was FULFILLED as Tadua stated. Peter merely let his audience know what they were witnessing was God carrying out what Joel had promised, without saying what they witnessed fulfilled that prophecy. Scriptures prove what happened in Acts chapter two was not a FULFILLMENT of Joel's prophecy, but that it was the beginning of that prophecy coming true. Scriptures teach Holy Spirit continued working with people, and God kept contacting people, way after Pentecost.
  
  So, here's my suggestion to you Alithia. I'll return what you might have thought was a favor to me in suggesting I should learn how to frame arguments. You need to learn how to argue, and more precisely learn how to prove your point. Above I mentioned several major flaws you used in your approach. If you want me to help you with this I can identify future failings in your approach. Just let me know if you'd like my help. If you don't want it, that's okay. I'll just help if you wish me to. If you need a book, or lessons to do that (as you previously suggested), so be it. I personally don't depend on argumentative strategies presented in books. But those might help you also; I don't know. Just to reiterate, the main flaw in your approach is that you supplied exactly zero evidence to support your argument. Instead you offered facts that were diversions to proving your central contention. D minus this time buddy!
  
  "Dear children, this is the last hour..." (1 John 2:18 written 98 A.D.) All John's writings were written after Jerusalem was destroyed. The "last days" started when Christ died, and they continue through our day and maybe after our time. They didn't end with Jerusalem's destruction.
  
  Christ's prophecy that Jerusalem would be destroyed and the Jewish people dispersed among the nations, during a time period Christ called the "appointed times of the nations," and his promise Jews would be gathered back again to Jerusalem suggests the "last days" might not last much longer. The Jewish nation was reestablished in 1948. Christ said the appointed time of the nations would end once the Jews were regathered to Jerusalem.
  
  "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:24

Comment by Alithia on 2019-06-25 17:46:53

Hello all and especially to Messenger.

With regards to my post Messenger I think you missed the point I was making, although I thought I made it abundantly clear both by explicitly requesting you provide an example and by referring to examples that are common to all.

That is we can argue till the cows come home unless there is a specific case in point that we can adjudicate on to determine if any manifestation is really of the good spirit kind.

My examples that you referred to as crazy are actually accepted and embraced by millions and millions of sane people who have been misled. These people are in high positions of authority in Government. I think there is a Mormon in one of the highest Gov. positions in America alone. This alone should behove us to carefully consider or as John said "test the spirits".

In any case I sense you feel God has contacted you and that is why you feel so strongly about the gifts of the spirit today. That is why I enquired of you personally. And if indeed you do I thought we could all benefit by this.

But if you continue to choose to remain silent on this matter then all that is left is to hopelessly debate hypotheticals which as I mentioned in my last post possibly leads to nought benefit.

Love to all from Alithia.

P.S a D minus ?? Haaa LOL. Love your humor! I am an educator too, I know a few things about education and instruction not to mention one of the few things I appreciate from the Ministry school was the training in how to frame an argument at least. "Logical, coherent, reasoning and illustrations in development of talk".

Brother Alithia GGGGG looking forward to your next talk! Haaa.

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-26 07:24:23

  Hello Alithia,
  
  There are reasons I choose not disclose the information you asked for. If you are a paid teacher, and a contracted teacher not a substitute teacher, and if you have held that position for years, then you know half of our job is assessing students, not just what they know, but the level of their abilities also. I do that a thousand times a day, five days a week, for half of the days each year. As in my school district teachers work 182 days a year.
  
  My own abilities as determined by my college and university educators were quite high. In my last university program, which was a program to train teachers, I received the highest grade which is an "A" in every class except one. And in that one class I received a B plus; because I pissed off the teacher by making a negative comment about her to another student, while she was standing over my shoulder. I've taken about a hundred and fifty college and university courses. Most of the papers I turned in throughout my college years received the grade of A also. Many of the teachers that assessed me held a Phd (doctors in their fields) and taught for many years. While testing to re-enter college my score was in the top 1% of all students entering that particular college.
  
  I am not telling you this to toot my horn. Because I don't much care what people think of me, and I don't care about receiving pats on my back. The reason I disclosed that information is to say this. I have read several of your posts in the past on this site. Although you express yourself adequately, my assessment of your ability to logically analyze written information does not place you very high. I feel you have not properly understood plain language (not figurative language) that you have read, and that was language you believe in from the Bible. Therefore, I have no confidence that you possess the ability to ACCURATELY assess what you don't believe in; and just as important, even if I did think you had skill to analyze written material properly, I don't believe you have ability to analyze what you know nothing about. And I don't believe you have had any experience with this subject and so therefore know nothing about it. That is other than those experiences you have read in scripture.
  
  I am not here to knock you. Above is my honest assessment of your ability to comprehend written statements. And I probably would have hidden those thoughts from you had you not been rude in the past. Since you might wish to offer some retort, stating you do have ability, and others recognize that, I offer that I don't base my opinions on the opinions of others. I assess what I observe myself, irrespective of the opinions of others. I offer the following example as one among several I've noted from my past readings, which shows you don't meet a standard that I feel most teachers would when it comes to developing a theme, or convincing an audience, but most importantly understanding what you've read. This example is taken from your recent comments on this page:
  
  Here is a quote from a recent post of yours, on this page. I believe in developing this topic you utterly failed to meet your stated objective. Here is your quote that defines your objective: "Hello Messenger and love to all others too. As promised Messenger I will respond to your question of Tadua around the idea of people today possessing miraculous gifts of the spirit as our brothers had in the first Century. And why we could safely conclude these miraculous abilities have ceased."
  
  Why don't you re-read your post and see if, in your view, you were not very far away from proving what YOU CLAIMED was your purpose, which was proving why we could safely conclude these miraculous abilities have ceased. Yes you did ask me for personal information as you say here, "With regards to my post Messenger I think you missed the point I was making, although I thought I made it abundantly clear both by explicitly requesting you provide an example and by referring to examples that are common to all." Yet the argument that you presented, including examples, offered no proof to fulfill your purpose. Plus your argument contained tactics and statements that didn't serve your purpose, unless your purpose was to mislead slow thinkers.

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-26 07:39:47

  I don't go to the Kingdom Hall to give talks anymore Alithia. But I used to give them there every week. My own opinion of the Theocratic Ministry School book's information is that it teaches public speaking at a beginner's level. I don't write papers like that, nor did I give talks at the Hall applying those sort of elementary scenarios, except that some of those steps I did in my head without thinking about it as an assigned task. The way I write papers, and the way I wrote those talks I used to give at the Hall, is by starting with the first word and then writing until I'm done. With a bit of editing after that's finished.
  
  And I don't do that while I'm teaching other places. My opinion about teaching is that if you don't know your subject like you know 2+2=4 you're not qualified to teach it. And if you have to contemplate a teaching process and use notes teaching 2+2=4 then you have no business being a teacher.

Comment by Psalmbee on 2019-06-26 08:41:38

Messenger,

With all that education you say you have, you stayed in the Org how long? How many years did the WT still trick you, even with your education? 2+2 does equal 4, you are right about that, but that's about all you're right about as far as I'm concerned. Since you will not give Althia a direct answer with all your so called wisdom to such a simple question, NO, you don't have any special gift of the Spirit, I'll answer it for you. A lot of your comments here are longer than the article you are commenting on, and to be honest I don't make it through most of them, and I find it disrespectful to do such a thing. I don't know how others feel about it, but that's the way I feel about it. 10-4?

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-26 09:51:05

  A simple solution Psalmbee, don't read what I write. Is anyone making you? If so, why do you allow that? And I find it interesting that you feel you can tell me what to do, and much more interesting that you feel I will do what you say. Thus my pseudonym is messenger, not God. And even God doesn't make you believe what he says, does he? It's your choice. As for you believing anything I write, that's not a concern of mine at all. I only work for God to spread his message. You decide what you want to do with it, and who you want to believe about it. So, why are you crying when you have a choice? I'm not.
  
  As for answering your questions above, you try another tone next time if you want a requested response from me. This time you'll get no answer to those questions. And not for that reason I gave Alithia. It's instead for your attitude. Free will means God gives me the ability and privilege to choose what I do. I don't do what Psalmbee tells me to. That's never going to happen.

  • Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-06-26 10:31:58

    Messenger,
    
    I didn't at anytime tell you what to do, I simply made a six line post that you added words to.
    I'm sorry that you may feel like you didn't get any ice cream, but hey, that's the way it is sometimes.
    
    I have an honest attitude, and the truth hurts, but at least it's the truth. I really didn't want an answer from you, but I know you can't help yourself from trying to always get the last word.
    
    The floor is yours to have the last word now, so go ahead and make it something good please.
    
    
    Love,
    
    Psalmbee

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-06-26 11:48:18

      "Love,
      
      Psalmbee"
      
      And you see no hypocrisy in that salutation?

      • Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-06-26 12:04:52

        "Honesty knows no hypocrisy", in case you didn't know.
        
        Love,
        Psalmbee

Comment by Tadua on 2019-06-26 13:48:58

Hi all,
Perhaps I could draw this discussion to a close before it gets heated.
I stand by what I wrote in my article. While there is no definitive proof gifts of the spirit stopped by the end of the first century, that is what I personally understand from my reading of the scriptures and early church father writings.
Neither is there definite proof they continued. Joel said that Holy Spirit would poured out in the last days. It was in the last days of the Jewish system of things.
Whether there is another last days and another fulfillment of Joel is totally subject to interpretation. (My personal view is that there is not).
I have not seen evidence of what I understand the gifts of the spirit to be, as manifested in the 1st century and by the prophets. But I have seen plenty of evidence that those who claim to be anointed or have gifts of the spirit often manifest traits and actions that would indicate the gifts are from a demonic source.

Dear Messenger, despite your many long posts you have not yet supplied any evidence to support your assertion that the gifts are still given today. I also will admit, like Psalmbee, both my spouse and myself struggled to understand the points you were trying to make.
If you wish to continue this particular discussion then please do so off-line with to my email address. I am open minded to proof and evidence and would be interested in such, however i do not want to keep on debating words and things which are a matter of personal conscience.
I would ask therefore that any other comments to this article discuss other points from the review.
With all our best interests at heart,
Your fellow Christian,
Tadua

• Reply by messenger on 2019-06-28 04:42:24

  I have no desire to get into off-site discussions Tadua, or to transmit information off-site. I feel most readers who read what I wrote about this matter understand what I wrote. But yes, some people need to hear or read something more than once, or hear that thing presented in a different way, in order to understand what they heard or read.
  
  My whole argument is based on a type of quid pro quo, which is brought out at 1 Corinthians chapter 13. It reads that thing called “perfect” or “complete” MUST come before the “gifts of the spirit” are done away with. Except for Leonardo Josephus and myself, I have not read, in this discussion, that anyone else wrote what they believe that “perfect” or “complete” thing is. Leonardo Josephus and I agree on what that is. We both named it; and I also listed reasons for my belief to be correct. My previous post also brought out how illogical WT’s (and some other Christians’) claim is that the “perfect” or “complete” thing was the completion of the Bible. I also listed reasons why WT’s belief is an illogical position.
  
  Any position taken by anyone that doesn’t identify the “perfect” or “complete” thing has to be based on speculation. Because without identifying the “perfect,” an interpreter can present nothing but speculation, like that based on anecdotes to support a position. The scriptures under consideration in Corinthians do not speak of anecdotes as being a determining factor. In those scriptures there is listed only one thing that determines when the gifts of the spirit are to be done away with. That thing is when the "perfect" or "complete" thing comes, which Paul wrote he would see.
  
  That’s the whole argument I presented below in a nutshell. I am not asking anyone to believe anything I say, or accept any idea I teach. That’s not my purpose. My purpose is merely to teach, not to demand anyone accepts my teachings.

  • Reply by Tadua on 2019-07-04 08:26:17

    When was 1 Corinthians 13:10 fulfilled?
    
    The Biblehub Greek Interlinear reads as follows for 1 Corinthians 13:10. “When however should come the perfect the in part will be done away.”
    The word translated as “perfect” is "teleion". Please see https://biblehub.com/greek/5046.html .
    You will notice its meaning is “having reached its end, complete, perfect”, used as “complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of completeness of Christian character.
    The word is an adjective derived from "telos" meaning “consummated goal, mature” from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal.
    So logically we have to ask what was the goal of the outpouring of Holy Spirit and when did it reach its end or goal?
    According to Joel’s prophesy the outpouring of Holy Spirit would act as a warning about the imminence of “the coming of the great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah” (Joel 2:31) What else would occur before that time? V30, 31 says there would be “portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke”, “the sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood”.
    When did at least some of these things (if not all) happen? Matthew 27:45 records that darkness fell over all the land from the 6th hour (midday) till the 9th hour (3pm) the time of Jesus death. (See also Amos 8:9) This was clearly supernatural in nature. There is no known natural event that can account for this manifestation and the coincidence of it lifting after Jesus died. There was a violent earthquake as Jesus expired and Luke records that “the sunlight failed”.
    Joel 2:29 says it would be “in those days”, which indicates a specific time period, not ongoing.
    Less than two months after these events, the events of Pentecost occurred where the holy spirit was clearly poured out, thereby fulfilling Jesus promise made before his death (John 15:26) to enable them to bear witness about Jesus, all those who had seen the events of Jesus ministry and death.
    
    In Acts 2:15-21 the Apostle Peter clearly linked this outpouring of Holy Spirit with the fulfilment of Joel 2. “On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel ‘And in the last days… ‘“.
    Those were the last days of the Jewish System of things. Jesus had said they would conclude while the majority of the generation who rejected him were still alive. (See Matthew 24, Mark13, Luke 21, etc)
    With the destruction of the Jewish system of things, there was no requirement for miraculous gifts of Holy Spirit to draw the Jews attention to their impending destruction. These gifts had therefore reached and consummated their goal, which was that of giving the Jews the opportunity to call on the name of the Lord and obey his warnings. In doing so they would therefore be able to get out of Jerusalem and Judea when that destruction came, starting in 66 AD. It had also served the purpose of firmly establishing the early Christian congregation to such an extent that it could not be stamped out.
    In summary, all scriptural evidence points to the consummation of the goal or completeness or perfection of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit being reached with the conclusion of the Jewish System of things (which started in 66 AD).
    Therefore can there be other gifts of the spirit today in the same manner as the first century? Clearly not without a basis from other scriptures as those discussed above were obviously fulfilled.

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-07-04 12:42:11

      When was 1Corinthians 13:10 fulfilled?
      
      Thank you for re-entering the conversation through providing research on the subject Tadua, and not attacking me as a personality like some on this site have done instead of presenting scriptures to back their claims. Your idea assumes God is more concerned in scripture about the end of the Jewish system than the end of this world, and the establishment of his Kingdom over it. He is not. Let me more accurately phrase that. You are assuming your scriptures speak to that point instead of the latter point. Even though the ancient Jews were concerned with their nation, even the Jews were more concerned about the establishment of their messiah’s rule over them. That is the primary message of the Bible. That is the ultimate goal (purpose) of God concerning humans. Therefore, your definition of the word as you replied here, “The word is an adjective derived from “telos” meaning “consummated goal, mature” from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal.” (Tadua’s quote), is accurate, but it is applied to an inaccurate time period, and situation. You apply it to Jerusalem’s destruction, while Paul applies it to the establishment of God’s kingdom over the entire Earth. Just a few main points can prove that:
      
      Point #1 Paul claimed he would see the fulfillment of 1Cor 13:10 (see vs 12), and Paul died before Jerusalem was destroyed. But let’s take the position of a skeptic, and say Paul might not have died before 70 A.D. If so what further knowledge did Paul receive before he died, than that which he had when he wrote Corinthians?Because the arrival of the "perfect" will bring complete knowledge Paul said, and he said he would have it.
      
      Paul wrote Corinthians shortly before Jerusalem’s destruction. All Paul’s biblical works were completed before Jerusalem was destroyed, as were those works of all other Bible writers except John. Paul certainly died before John wrote anything, since John wrote at the very end of the first century. The identity of 1Corinthians 13:10 requires Paul being there to see when it (vs 10) arrives (see vs 12), or do you deny that? (A rhetorical question Tadua) If you deny Paul MUST see the perfect or complete arrive, I don’t know on what basis you’ve decided on that conclusion- it wasn’t addressed in your comment.
      
      The complete thing's (vs 10) arrival, associated with complete knowledge arriving, is when Paul's scriptures claim God's Spiritual gifts will end. So, what knowledge did the destruction of Jerusalem bring? The only additional knowledge received because of that destruction was the fact it was destroyed. Even that God was no longer dealing with the Jews could not be proven by the destruction, because the same thing had happened before, which the Jews were aware of. And they were aware that during and after that previous event of Jerusalem's destruction and its temple they were still God’s exclusive people. The revealing of what vs 10 is requires complete knowledge to be present, even for Paul to possess it. He never possessed it when Jerusalem was destroyed-something he wasn't even aware of because he was dead. And Paul didn't possess it because the complete knowledge Paul refers to cannot be found in scriptures or in this world.
      
      Point #2 Now we are talking specifically about the pouring out of Holy Spirit in the Last Days. Tadua you claim, “Joel 2:29 says it would be “in those days”, which indicates a specific time period, not ongoing.” Yes Joel did say, “in those days.” “Those days” are not days but decades by your reasoning-which means they are ongoing (days). “Those days” are in fact centuries. That is proven not only by point #1 but also from this next point I offer below (#3). But first for point #2 I offer John’s writings prove Holy Spirit was poured out, as God said it would be, well after Jerusalem was destroyed. John letters, his gospel, and Revelation prove that because Holy Spirit directed him to write. And he wrote those in 98 A.D., Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. Therefore God could not have ceased pouring Holy Spirit upon people in 70 A.D., at the culmination of the Jewish system. Also, Christianity was already established by 70 A.D. Paul had a big hand in that, and Paul was dead by that time. Why wouldn’t God cut the outpouring of Holy Spirit off in that year, if Jerusalem’s destruction had anything to do with God’s reason for doing so? It didn’t. Thus God continued pouring his Spirit out on Christians-to be clear on some Christians- even according to exact biblical evidence decades after Jerusalem was destroyed.
      
      
      Point #3. As I raised the point earlier even the Jewish people were more concerned about when their messiah would rule them, than any other biblical matter. The apostles even more so. From the apostles' questions on the Mount of Olives to Christ we can tell that the apostles already knew Christ would be leaving and returning again to establish his kingdom. They cared a lot more about that than they did about the subject Christ had introduced, which was the temple’s destruction. In their questions to Christ they asked him about that most important matter to them, as they inquired about that less important matter, the temple’s destruction. Matthew 24:“3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (KJV) In an interlinear the word for world is “age.” It’s clear that the “end of the age” the apostles spoke of was not Jerusalem’s temple’s destruction, because in their questions they attached the “end of the age” to “thy coming,” meaning Christ’s coming. Jesus response is what should solidify a correct understanding. Jesus answered all three questions, with the last two being combined as one. Everyone reading here knows Christ did not come again when Jerusalem was destroyed. He hasn’t come to date. When he comes he said there will be a sign of the Son of Man, in heaven, that everyone on Earth will see. That was the only sign he gave about his Parousia. He also gave a separate sign about the end of the world, which will also be signs in the heavens.
      
      When Christ told us, Christians, to raise our heads erect when we “see all the things” he elaborated on prior to making that statement, it was to reassure us that we should not be terrified because our deliverance is near. Why did Christ decide to give words to reassure those of us that will be alive at that time, those of us who will see “all these things"? Because some of “all these things” will be terrifying, and Christ does not want us (Christians) to let our faith in him give out. How terrifying will part of “all these things” be? Very! Coming to my mind is the picture of a little child on a two story roof, and his house is on fire with no safe way out through the first level. And his dad in their front yard, looking up, tells him to "jump, you’ll be safe."
      
      The great tribulation that Christ said is coming was not only the destruction of Jerusalem. As he progressed his monologue he spoke of this world's ending. Christians shouldn’t have even been terrified when Jerusalem was destroyed because Christ told them to leave Jerusalem before destruction arrived. “This generation” that will see “all these things” is the generation that will see the end of this world. The sign Christ gave concerning Jerusalem being surrounded was his answer to the first question his disciples asked him. Proceeding to but prior to his answering the last two questions apostles asked, [those questions being, and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (KJV)], Christ first spoke of some things that will occur that were not part of the signs he shared. But in the last two signs which he finally gave after sharing those other thoughts, in answering he spoke of miraculous heavenly sights. Christ said “this generation” (meaning the generation that will see “all these things”) is the generation to see the world’s end. Until the Great Tribulation for this whole world comes, “all these things,” could not be evident to anyone. Because “all these things” grammatically must include all the things Christ spoke of proceeding that phrase, which included the great tribulation upon this world. The actual events that take place during that Great Tribulation (which is the second one Christ spoke of in Matthew 24, and Luke 21), were sent to the apostle John in visions. John recorded those visions as the book of Revelation, written in 98 A.D., well after Jerusalem was destroyed. And those visions are describing a worldwide ending, not that isolated event you cite in Jerusalem. It is only after "all these things" happen that the completion of God's purpose comes-his kingdom.
      
      You put too much relevance on the Jewish nation. That nation has only been attached to God because of the promises God made to Abram. And some of the promises made to Abram still go unfulfilled, but will be fulfilled, so that attachment continues. But God's primary promises to Abram have to do with Christ saving all people who allow it. God is not partial, and even though he works with Jews to fulfill those promises to Abram God has always been working to benefit all people just as much as the Jews. The completion of God's purpose therefore has to do with all people. When that comes so will complete knowledge come, at least to Christ's church, in the since 1Cor 13 describes it. And Paul will be there to see that.

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-07-04 20:47:37

      Christ begins speaking of Jerusalem’s tribulation; then (after speaking of that tribulation) he speaks of a time period when false Christs attempt to mislead Christians (Matthew 24:23-28), followed by his statement that “after that tribulation” (Mark 13:10) the heavenly signs are seen, and Christ comes, and is seen.
      
      The words “after that tribulation,” as Mark phrased it, could mean thousands of years, but the way Matthew reports Christ’s words couldn’t mean thousands of years. Matthew recorded his words like this, starting at vs 29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light. the stars will fall from heaven, the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.” Christ comes immediately after a tribulation he reports on in this latter part of Matthew 24. So he must have been speaking of a different tribulation than the one he first describes in that chapter.
      
      The great tribulation Christ referred to in parts of Matthew 24 is not Jerusalem's destruction. Christ associated that great tribulation with his presence appearing immediately after it. That did not happen after Jerusalem was destroyed. In vss 29-31 he must have been referring to a tribulation John saw in visions, his Revelation.
      
      However, other vss in Matthew do point to a tribulation in Jerusalem. Confirming that is the way Luke recorded the conversation at Luke 21:24, where he wrote, "They will fall by the mouth of the sword, and be led captive to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the nations until are fulfilled the times of the nations, and will be signs ...." (ESV) read thru vs 28 which speaks of the Son of Man's appearance-just as Matthew included that. Note how the "times of the nations" define a time period, an extensive one, before Christ comes.
      
      Both Matthew and Luke record Christ speaking of Jerusalem's destruction first, as a great tribulation, but then have him going right into speaking of his second coming. The only way to reconcile Christ's words is to see he is speaking of two tribulations. That part of Watchtower's interpretation I agree with. By carefully reading Christ's words it seems evident that he went from speaking about one tribulation, which was the fall of Jerusalem, and then after mingling other thoughts together in his monologue-those thoughts defining a time period after Jerusalem's destruction, he began speaking of the tribulation John saw, in his visions written down in Revelation. A very interesting form of speech, as it is not the way we normally speak. Christ spoke of the two events in some verses as if they are the same event. In other verses he clearly speaks of those tribulations as different events.

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-07-06 09:23:20

      Compare the phrase "end of the age"that Christ used in Matthew 13:39, and what he meant by that phrase, to how the apostles used the same phrase at Matthew 24:3. Both Christ and the apostles associated the phrase with Christ's second coming. So naturally when Christ answered THAT QUESTION he was speaking of a worldwide ending, instead of the isolated event in Jerusalem.
      
      But before giving that answer Christ gave another answer, to the question the apostles first asked, "Tell us, when will these things be?" (the destruction of the temple). The time period covered in Christ's answer to that first question is a period proceeding the destruction of the temple.

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-07-08 13:47:04

      Tadua,
      
      Here is another clue to the identity of "this generation," recorded at Matthew 24:34. Look at vs 36 of Matthew 24, which is a statement Christ made immediately after citing "this generation." And remember he is continuing in his answer to the questions recorded at Matthew 24:3 .
      
      "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son of Man, but only the Father." vs 36
      
      He starts that statement by speaking of a specific time period. And Christ labels that time period as being "that day and hour," in response to the questions put forth in vs 3. Christ said no one but the Father knows that time period. And I assume you agree that in vs 36 Christ was referring to his second coming, and that you also agree he was answering the questions put forth in vs 3. And then notice that after vs 36 Christ returns to speak of his second coming, clarifying the identity of vs 36 as the time period of his second coming. Christ previously spoke of that time period in vss 30 & 31. Thus he placed the phrase "this generation" in between two descriptors of his second coming.
      
      As part of the first descriptor of his second coming Christ said, "Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things know that HE is near at the doors"( vs 33), followed immediately by the vs containing "this generation" in it. The YOU Christ referred to is the Christian group who view the descriptors signaling his second coming, as he concludes that sentence containing "you" by telling them, " know that HE is near at the doors." Therefore, that phrase "this generation" should logically apply to those he just called "You," since these are the ones he is now speaking about, not those that saw Jerusalem affected by Daniel's prophecy, that Christ spoke about way back in vs 15. If Christ wanted "this generation" to describe his apostles' generation it would have made a lot more sense for him to place that phrase by vs 15, and not where he is clearly referring to his second coming. Because although Christ didn't know that day and hour he sure knew it wouldn't be while his apostles were alive.
      
      Grammatically speaking Christ could have used the words "this generation" or 'that generation' when speaking about the generation he identified as "seeing all these things." Because the term "this" applies to those observing the things he was speaking about, which would be those Christians who would see the things he mentioned prior to his making that statement. If those people present wouldn't see those things, then Christ didn't mean their generation at all. Saying "this generation" had no explicit or implied connection to who was present or alive at that time. Its context connected that phrase to those Christians who will view his descriptors of events that will occur prior to his second coming.
      
      HOLY SPIRIT HOW DOES IT OPERATE THROUGHOUT HISTORY:
      
      With regard to your two thoughts, "With the destruction of the Jewish system of things, there was no requirement for miraculous gifts of Holy Spirit to draw the Jews attention to their impending destruction," and "In summary, all scriptural evidence points to the consummation of the goal or completeness or perfection of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit being reached with the conclusion of the Jewish System of things (which started in 66 AD)"; you link those two ideas as if they are one; yet they are not. Also, you fail to articulate how the writer of 1Corinthians 13:10 was impacted by that event in vs 10, when he wrote at vs 12 of 1Cor. chapter 13 that he definitely would be impacted by that event in vs 10.
      
      There are no requirements on God. He does what he wants to, when he wants to. Those names," I AM what I AM," and "Jehovah" imply that he is God and does what he wants to as God, and no one can prevent that from happening, or in truth characterize his actions by claiming what he must do, or is required to do. God contacts people, and does what he wants with them, without having any requirements placed on him about anything, including any time period that he operates using Holy Spirit along with people in the ways we are considering. Your assumption that God is required to operate in those ways only during a certain time period is inaccurate. The idea puts God in a box you created in your mind, and it defies God's proclamation that he is what he is, "I Am what I Am," or "Jehovah," which means he does whatever he wants to. Those names are not merely signifying he CAN become what he wants, they signify he DOES whatever he wants. He exists as a being that can do what he wants, whenever he wants to.
      
      THE PEOPLE WITH SPECIAL GIFTS, and others that are contacted by God:
      
      It is God working in some fashion that brings about all those miracles, including human contact. The fact Paul prayed three times for his own malady to be healed, but it wasn't, shows that. The gifts of the Spirit given to Bible characters were accounts of God, through some procedures of his own, working miracles in the presence of people. The same thing happens when God contacts humans. And both of these types of situations happened throughout Bible history, people were healed, raised from the dead, prophesied, and given special knowledge, and contacted by God. Other than their prayers, faith, and the lifestyles those people have and had, the people themselves have nothing to do with those miracles. The Bible only describes people as having gifts because those people are what humans see when God operates, while using that small part of the population to inform others of his (God's) power, will, or messages.
      
      Sometimes, as when God contacts people, those people are the only ones who are aware of the miracle. Because again, God does things for his own reasons, and those reasons are not restricted by human rationalizations, like assuming God's actions towards some people must be proven to other people. God is not required to prove he contacted people to anyone else not receiving those contacts. Naturally they know of it or there are no contacts. The miracle of contacts through Holy Spirit (dreams and visions) is not addressed in the scriptures at 1Cor. chpt 13. Those scriptures speak of certain works God does but not those things. So, it is making a leap in judgment to say the dreams and visions Peter spoke of are done away with along with the things Paul mentioned in 1Cor.13 that will be done away with.
      
      Concerning how Joel described "the day of the Lord," notice that in the following vss Joel described "the day of the Lord," in vs 14, as a judgment day for people in all the nations. There he was not describing it as Jerusalem's destruction. Here are those vss, Joel 3:9-16 from the New International Version Bible (NIV):
      
      9 Proclaim this among the nations:
      Prepare for war!
      Rouse the warriors!
      Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
      10 Beat your plowshares into swords
      and your pruning hooks into spears.
      Let the weakling say,
      “I am strong!”
      11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
      and assemble there.
      
      Bring down your warriors, Lord!
      
      12 “Let the nations be roused;
      let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
      for there I will sit
      to judge all the nations on every side.
      13 Swing the sickle,
      for the harvest is ripe.
      Come, trample the grapes,
      for the winepress is full
      and the vats overflow—
      so great is their wickedness!”
      
      14 Multitudes, multitudes
      in the valley of decision!
      For the day of the Lord is near
      in the valley of decision.
      15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
      and the stars no longer shine.
      16 The Lord will roar from Zion
      and thunder from Jerusalem;
      the earth and the heavens will tremble.
      But the Lord will be a refuge for his people,
      a stronghold for the people of Israel.