This is now the fifth video in our series on Matthew 24.
Do you recognize this musical refrain?
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, well, you might find
You get what you need…
Rolling Stones, right? It’s very true.
The disciples wanted to know the sign of Christ’s presence, but they weren’t going to get what they wanted. They were going to get what they needed; and what they needed was a way to save themselves from what was to come. They were going to face the greatest tribulation their nation had ever experienced, or would ever experience again. Their survival would require they recognize the sign Jesus gave them, and that they have the faith needed to follow his instructions.
So, we now come to the part of the prophecy where Jesus actually answers their question, “When will all these things be?” (Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7)
While all three accounts differ from one another in many ways, they all begin with Jesus answering the question with the same opening phrase:
“When therefore you shall see…” (Matthew 24:15)
“When then you see…” (Mark 13:14)
“When then you see…” (Luke 21:20)
The adverb “therefore” or “then” is used to show a contrast between what went before and what comes now. Jesus has finished giving them all the warnings they will need leading up to this moment, but none of those warnings constituted a sign or signal to action. Jesus is about to give them that sign. Matthew and Mark refer to it cryptically for a non-Jew who would not have known Bible prophecy like a Jew would, but Luke leaves no doubt as to the meaning of Jesus’ warning sign.
“Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),” (Mt 24:15)
“However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Mr 13:14)
“However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” (Lu 21:20)
It is most likely that Jesus used the term, “disgusting thing”, that Matthew and Mark relate, because to a Jew versed in the law, having read it and heard it read every Sabbath, there would be no doubt what constituted a “disgusting thing causing desolation.” Jesus refers to the scrolls of Daniel the prophet which contain multiple references to a disgusting thing, or the desolation of the city and the temple. (See Daniel 9:26, 27; 11:31; and 12:11.)
We are interested particularly in Daniel 9:26, 27 which reads in part:
“…And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations….And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”” (Da 9:26, 27)
We can thank Luke for clarifying for us what the disgusting thing causing desolation refers to. We can only speculate why Luke decided not to use the same term that Matthew and Mark used, but one theory has to do with his intended audience. He opens his account by saying: “. . .I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus. . .” (Luke 1:3) Unlike the other three gospels, Luke’s was written for one individual in particular. The same goes for the entire book of Acts which Luke opens with “The first account, O Theophilus, I composed about all the things Jesus started to do and to teach. ” (Ac 1:1)
The honorific “most excellent” and the fact that Acts concludes with Paul under arrest in Rome has led some to suggest that Theophilus was a Roman official connected with Paul’s trial; possibly his lawyer. Whatever the case, if the account was to be used in his trial, it would hardly help his appeal to refer to Rome as “a disgusting thing” or an “abomination”. Saying that Jesus foretold that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies would be far more acceptable for Roman officials to hear.
Daniel refers to “the people of a leader” and “the wing of disgusting things”. Jews hated idols and pagan idol worshippers, so the pagan Roman army bearing its idol standard, an eagle with outstretched wings laying siege to the holy city and trying to make incursion through the temple gate, would be a true abomination.
And what were the Christians to do when the saw the desolating abomination?
“then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment.” (Matthew 24:16-18)
“. . ., then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down nor go inside to take anything out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment.” (Mark 13:14-16)
So, when they see a disgusting thing they must flee immediately and with great urgency. However, do you notice something seemingly odd about the instruction Jesus gives? Let’s look at it again as Luke describes it:
“However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her,” (Luke 21:20, 21)
How exactly were they supposed to comply with this command? How do you escape from a city that’s already surrounded by the enemy? Why didn’t Jesus give them more detail? There is an important lesson for us in this. We rarely have all the information we want. What God wants is for us to trust him, to have confidence that he has our back. Faith isn’t about believing in God’s existence. It’s about believing in his character.
Of course, everything Jesus foretold, came to pass.
In 66 C. E., the Jews revolted against Roman rule. General Cestius Gallus was sent to quell the rebellion. His army surrounded the city and prepared the temple gate to be breached by fire. The disgusting thing in the holy place. All this happened so swiftly that the Christians didn’t have a chance to flee the city. In fact, the Jews were so overwhelmed by the speed of the Roman advance that they were ready to surrender. Note this eyewitness account from Jewish historian Flavius Josephus:
“and now it was that a horrid fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately; but the people upon this took courage, and where the wicked part of the city gave ground, thither did they come, in order to set open the gates, and to admit Cestius as their benefactor, who, had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day.
It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by the despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world.”
(The Wars of the Jews, Book II, chapter 19, pars. 6, 7)
Just imagine the consequences had Cestius Gallus not withdrawn. The Jews would have surrendered and the city with its temple would have been spared. Jesus would have been a false prophet. Not going to happen ever. The Jews were not going to escape the condemnation the Lord pronounced upon them for spilling all the righteous blood from Abel onward, right down to his own blood. God had judged them. Sentence would be served.
The retreat under Cestius Gallus fulfilled Jesus’ words.
“In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:22)
“In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen, he has cut short the days.” (Mark 13:20)
Notice again a parallel with Daniel’s prophecy:
“…And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1)
Christian historian Eusebius records that they seized the opportunity and fled to the mountains to the city of Pella and elsewhere beyond the Jordan river.[i] But the inexplicable withdrawal seems to have had another effect. It emboldened the Jews, who harassed the retreating Roman army and had a great victory. Thus, when the Romans eventually returned to besiege the city, there was not talk of surrendering. Instead, a kind of madness seized the populous.
Jesus foretold that great tribulation would come upon this people.
“. . .for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Matthew 24:21)
“. . .for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again.” (Mark 13:19)
“. . .For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; . . .” (Luke 21:23, 24)
Jesus told us to use discernment and look to the prophecies of Daniel. One in particular is relevant to the prophecy involving great tribulation or as Luke puts it, great distress.
“…And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time….” (Daniel 12:1)
Here is where things get muddled. Those who have a penchant for wanting to predict the future read more into the following words than is there. Jesus said that such a tribulation “has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” They reason that a tribulation that befell Jerusalem, as bad as it was, is no comparison in scope or magnitude to what happened in the first and second world wars. They might also point to the Holocaust which, according to records, killed 6 million Jews; a greater number than died in the first century in Jerusalem. Therefore, they reason that Jesus was referring to some other tribulation far greater than what happened to Jerusalem. They look to Revelation 7:14 were John sees a great crowd standing before the throne in heaven and is told by the angel, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation…”.
“Aha! They exclaim. See! The same words are used—“great tribulation”—so it must refer to the same event. My friends, brothers and sisters, this is very shaky reasoning upon which to build an entire end-times prophetic fulfillment. First of all, Jesus doesn’t use the definite article when answering the question of the disciples. He doesn’t call it “the great tribulation” as if there is only one. It is just “great tribulation”.
Second, the fact that a similar phrase is used in Revelation doesn’t mean anything. Otherwise, we’d have to tie in this passage from Revelation as well:
“‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her fornication. Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.” (Revelation 2:20-22)
However, those promoting the idea of a secondary, major fulfillment will point to the fact that he says this great tribulation will never occur again. They would reason then that since worse tribulations than what befell Jerusalem have occurred, he must be referring to something even greater. But hold on a minute. They’re forgetting the context. The context speaks of only one tribulation. It doesn’t speak of a minor and a major fulfillment. There is nothing to indicate there is some antitypical fulfillment. The context is very specific. Look again at Luke’s words:
“there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations”. (Luke 21:23, 24)
It is speaking about the Jews, period. And that is exactly what happened to the Jews.
“But that doesn’t make sense,” some will say. “Noah’s flood was a greater tribulation than what happened to Jerusalem, so how could Jesus words be true?”
You and I did not say those words. Jesus said those words. So, what we think he means doesn’t count. We have to figure out what he actually meant. If we accept the premise that Jesus cannot lie nor contradict himself, then we have to look a little deeper to resolve the apparent conflict.
Matthew records him saying, “there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning”. What world? The world of mankind, or the world of Judaism?
Mark choses to render his words this way: “a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation.” What creation? The creation of the universe? The creation of the planet? The creation of the world of mankind? Or the creation of the nation of Israel?
Daniel says, “a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation” (Da 12:1). What nation? Any nation? Or the nation of Israel?
The only thing that works, that allows us to understand Jesus words as accurate and truthful is to accept that he was speaking within the context of the nation of Israel. Was the tribulation that came upon them the worst they as a nation had ever experienced?
Judge for yourself. Here are just a few highlights:
When Jesus was taken to be crucified he paused to say to the women who were weeping for him, “daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves, and for your children. (Luke 23:28). He could see the horrors that would come upon the city.
After Cestius Gallus retreated, another General was sent. Vespasian returned in 67 CE and captured Flavius Josephus. Josephus won the general’s favour by predicting accurately that he would become Emperor which he did some two years later. Because of this, Vespasian appointed him to a place of honor. During this time, Josephus made an extensive record of the Jewish/Roman war. With the Christians safely gone in 66 C.E., there was no reason for God to hold back. The city descended into anarchy with organized gangs, violent zealots and criminal elements causing great distress. The Romans didn’t return to Jerusalem directly, but concentrated on other places like Palestine, Syria, and Alexandria. Thousands of Jews died. This explains Jesus warning for those in Judea to flee when they saw the disgusting thing. Eventually the Romans came to Jerusalem and surrounded the city. Those who tried to escape the siege were either caught by the zealots and had their throats slit, or by the Romans who nailed them to crosses, as many as 500 a day. Famine seized the city. There was chaos and anarchy and civil war inside the city. Stores that should have kept them going for years were torched by opposing Jewish forces to keep the other side from having them. The Jews descended into cannibalism. Josephus records that opinion that the Jews did more to harm each other than did the Romans. Imagine living under that terror day after day, from your own people. When the Romans finally entered the city, they went mad and slaughtered people indiscriminately. Less than one out of every 10 Jews survived. The temple was torched despite Titus’ order to preserve it. When Titus finally entered the city and saw the fortifications, he realized that if they had held together they could have kept the Romans out for a very long time. This caused him to say perceptively:
“We have certainly had God for our existence in this war, and it was no other than God that ejected the Jews under these fortifications; for what could the hands of men, or any machines, do toward overthrowing these towers![ii]
The Emperor then ordered Titus to raze the city to the ground. Thus, Jesus words about a stone not being left upon a stone came true.
The Jews lost their nation, their temple, their priesthood, their records, their very identity. This was truly the worst tribulation ever to occur to the nation, surpassing even the Babylonian exile. Nothing like it will ever occur to them again. We are not talking about individual Jews, but the nation which was God’s chosen people until they killed his son.
What do we learn from this? The writer of Hebrews tells us:
“For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31)
Jesus is loving and merciful, but we must remember that he is the image of God. Therefore, Jehovah is loving and merciful. We know Him by knowing His Son. However, being the image of God means reflecting all his attributes, not just the warm, fuzzy ones.
Jesus is depicted in Revelation as a warrior King. When the New World Translation says: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay’, says Jehovah”, it is not rendering the Greek accurately. (Romans 12:9) What it actually says is, “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay’, says the Lord.” Jesus isn’t sitting on the sidelines, but is the instrument that the Father uses to exact vengeance. Remember: the man that welcomed young children into his arms, also fashioned a whip from ropes and drove the money lenders out of the temple—twice! (Matthew 19:13-15; Mark 9:36; John 2:15)
What is my point? I’m speaking not only to Jehovah’s Witnesses now, but to every religious denomination that feels that their particular brand of Christianity is the one that God has chosen as his very own. Witnesses believe that their organization is the only one chosen by God out of all of Christendom. But the same can be said for pretty much every other denomination out there. Each one believes theirs is the true religion, otherwise why would they remain in it?
Nevertheless, there is one thing we can all agree upon; one thing which is undeniable for all who believe the Bible: that is that the nation of Israel was God’s chosen people out of all the peoples on earth. It was, in essence, God’s church, God’s congregation, God’s organization. Did that save them from the most horrific tribulation imaginable?
If we think that membership has its privileges; if we think that affiliation with an organization or a church grants us some special get-out-of-jail-free card; then we are deceiving ourselves. God did not just punish individuals in the nation of Israel. He eradicated the nation; erased their national identity; razed their city to the ground as if a flood had swept through just as Daniel predicted; made them into a pariah. “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
If we want Jehovah to smile favourably on us, if we want our Lord, Jesus to stand up for us, then we must take a stand for what is right and true no matter the cost to ourselves.
Remember what Jesus told us:
“Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens; but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:32-39)
What is left to discuss from Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21? A great deal. We haven’t talked about the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. We haven’t discussed the presence of Christ. We touched on the link some feel exists between “great tribulation” mentioned here and “the great tribulation” recorded in Revelation. Oh, and there’s also the singular mention of the “appointed times of the nations”, or “the gentile times” from Luke . All of that will be the subject of our next video.
Thank you so much for watching and for your support.
_______________________________________________________________
[i] Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, III, 5:3
[ii] The Wars of the Jews, chapter 8:5
Archived Comments
We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.
Comment by Dan Adams on 2019-12-12 14:28:26
Loved this article. Thank you!
Comment by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-12 15:49:02
Thoroughly enjoyed that video thanks Eric.
I loved the logic and reasoning.
May I ask.... is there an article discussing the identity of the woman of Revelation 12?
I keep a check on what’s being discussed at the meetings ( because my parents attend and I want to be prepared for any discussion) and the identity of the woman was discussed this week with the insight book being referred to.
I’ve searched on the Beroean sites but can’t find any mention of it. I was sure it was discussed some time ago?
Any help from anyone in finding it would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Martha
P.S. as part of my search for info on “the woman” I had a look at some other bible study and commentary sites.
The variety of speculation on these verses confirmed to me that all of us are making stabs in the dark about a lot of Revelation, some may be a little more educated... but nevertheless, as you aptly pointed it in your video today, no religion has a monopoly on truth or on Jehovah’s approval.
Love to all,
Stay safe and well
?Reply by rudytokarz on 2019-12-12 17:36:26
I have also wondered about this and found the descriptive wording in Revelation 12:1-6 comparative to Revelation 17 interesting. Could the 'woman' start out in God's favor and be fed for a while then lose favor and become BTG? Could this portray the 'church' from the 1st century which has become the apostate organized Christian religion over time?
Just a thought...Reply by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-12 19:25:00
Thanks for commenting Rudy... your comment proves to me that Revelation is a puzzle indeed! The more I look the more questions I have. I’ll leave Revelation on the back burner for now. I guess that I’ll know what it all means once it’s all happened.
Meanwhile.... back to Matthew! ?Reply by Watchman on 2019-12-12 23:22:32
I believe you have to include the prophecies in the Old Testament to properly understand the full life cycle of the woman at Revelation 12.
In Genesis 3:15 it never says anything about the woman’s faithfulness or survival, simply that her offspring would destroy the serpent.
Ezekiel 16 describes the woman’s birth, marriage to Jehovah and the adultery she commits
Isaiah 66:6,7 seem to be describing the woman giving birth to Jesus before actually going into labor (at this point the woman is still a prostitute)
Israel 66:8,9 seem to be describing the birth of the rest of her sons (Christ’s brothers) at a later date after going into labor.
Revelation 12 describes what I believe to be an unfaithful prostitute that gives birth to Christ’s brothers, which are, eventually, caught away to gods throne. After giving birth Satan is thrown down to earth and attacks her but she is saved and carried off on the wings of birds to the wilderness where she is fed and cared for.
Zechariah 5 describes a similar vision when we see a woman named wickedness carried on the wings of birds to shinar(Babylon) where a home is built for her.
Hosea 2:1-14 describes the need for the woman’s offspring to condemn her prostitution and that even when she tries to return to Jehovah he still humiliates her for what she had done. He then takes her to the wilderness to win back her heart.
Revelation 2:20-23 describe that woman as Jezebel and state that she was given time to repent and was unwilling so she is thrown into a sickbed. This is while she is in the christian congregation of Thyatira. All her children who don’t repent of her deeds will be killed in the great tribulation.
Jeremiah 30 also describes the discipline of the woman(Zion) because her wounds were incurable (without turning to Jehovah). But Jehovah then destroys those who devoured her.
Revelation 17:3 describes the woman John sees in the wilderness.
Ezekiel 16:59-63 state that Jehovah makes the woman not just the sister of the harlots(Sodom and Samaria) but make her their mother.
Revelation 17 goes on to describe Babylon the great, the mother of harlots who ends up devoured by the wild beast(former lovers)
To this point the woman is Jerusalem and will never rise as Jerusalem again.
Instead her faithful children form new Jerusalem (the bride) and receive the promised covenants at Hosea 2:15-23 & Jeremiah 30:17-24 & Revelation 19 & 21Reply by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-13 03:22:23
Thank you watchman.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-13 03:27:36
Hello all,
Thank you for those of you who have taken the time to comment on my query.
I have had a message from Eric saying that there hasn’t been any commentary on the Beroean sites about Revelation yet.
This answers my original question.
I would just like to say I didn’t intend to start a discussion in the possible meanings of Revelation in this comment section, since it is meant to be about The video on Matthew.
?
Thanks to those who have tried to help; my query is over and although the theories are interesting, I don’t think this is the time or place to discuss them.
Sorry to hijack your comment section Eric! ?
Love to all
MarthaReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-12-13 06:23:08
Don't worry about it Martha. It's all good. As long as we can discuss these things calmly without becoming dogmatic, I see no harm.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-13 07:13:59
??
Comment by swaffi on 2019-12-12 17:55:01
Nice video Eric, just watched it on Youtube. It's good how you used the Rolling Stones song "you can't always get what you want" it's very apt in describing the doctrines of many Christian denominations
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2019-12-12 19:19:41
I liked that too! ?
Comment by Frankie on 2019-12-17 16:10:50
Hello Just Asking.
Interesting topic. I think verses Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24 in connection with Luke 21:25 are not talking about the eclipse time interval - short or long. Luke speaks of "signs" on the Sun and the Moon, which may be a shorter interval, as well (IMO).
These events, in my opinion, will only arise in future, because Jesus has not yet come on clouds with glory and his angels and has not begun to gather his elect from the four winds, etc. Certain verses of Matt 24 could relate to the future with respect to similar statements in Revelation (which is situated into the future).
I could present an alternative view of literal events. As for the stars and signs (or eclipses) on the Sun and Moon, there is a possible interpretation through astronomical phenomena in the Solar System. The term "star" may not be the same as a star such as the Sun or Sirius. In my country, when people are looking at the sky and see a meteor, they often say "the star is falling, wish something" (I don't know if it is the same in your country).
Falling "stars" at that time can be the extreme meteoric swarms, far more huge than e.g. of today's Perseids. These unusual swarms could be caused by chaos in the Solar System ("heavenly powers will move"), which may result, at the same time, in signs on the Sun and the Moon.
[ I'm not saying this is the case, it's just one of the possibilities within the frame of intellectual exercise :o) ]
If we want to explain the figurative falling of stars, then the eclipse of the Sun and the Moon must be explained at the same time, because these three phenomena are mentioned as simultaneous. I do not exclude that this is figurative like many other similar things in the Bible related to Earth, Sun, Moon and Stars. I'll take a look at it and get back to you (when I finally will have a day of 48 hours?).
Love to you JA. Frankie
Comment by Watchman on 2019-12-12 22:13:57
I really enjoyed the video. I’m wondering how Zechariah 12 & 14 fits into your timeline of Matthew 24.
Zechariah 12:2,3, 14:1,2; describe a siege Jehovah brings by gathering all the nations to capture, rape, and pillage Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:4-9, 14:3-5; describe Jehovah and his holy ones providing salvation and restoration to Jerusalem by destroying the nations that had originally summoned. (Including instructions to flee to the mountains)
Zechariah 14:6,7 could easily be describing the same celestial events as Matthew.
Zechariah 14:16 seems to support your concept of unrighteous ones also surviving the great war of Jehovah (at Armageddon)
Zechariah 12:10-14 possibly opening the eyes of those in Jerusalem to the reason for the nations having been gathered, causing grief and possibly (hopefully) repentance. (Notice the reference to the plain of Megiddo in verse 11, extremely similar to the meaning of Armageddon)
Zechariah 14:17-21 describes the relationship unrighteous ones will have with Jerusalem during the millennial reign, including penalties for noncompliance
Seeing as the book of Zechariah was written after the Jews returned from Babylonian exile, I’m convinced these prophecies are yet to occur. That Indicates to me that Jerusalem represents New Jerusalem in Revelation at least in these chapters.
My juror is still out on whether prophecies have multiple fulfillments, but at the very least later prophecies reuse the imagery from the prophets before them. If we have prophecies in the Old Testament and Revelation that seem to describe the same unfulfilled events, wouldn’t Jesus shared use of imagery add some context to what we can expect to unfold in the “world of the new covalent”?
One last question, why can’t Revelation 2:22 and 7:14 be talking about the same great tribulation?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-12-13 06:05:18
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Giving just a cursory read to Zechariah 12, 13 and 14 and remembering that the chapter divisions were added afterwards, it seems to me the whole thing this messianic prophecy. I'm going to have to do some research into it.
As to your final question, Revelation 7:14 uses the definite article to qualify the phrase "great tribulation". To me, this appears to be something unique, set apart from all other tribulations that the human race has ever suffered. If you do a scan on the word "tribulation" you will see that its primary use pertains to the Christian congregation and its primary definition relates to testing and refinement rather than punishment and destruction. From this I deduce that the Christian congregation has been going through tribulation since its inception and continues to do so. This testing has now stretched for almost 2000 years and is used to refine those chosen ones who will rule with Christ.Reply by Watchman on 2019-12-16 12:49:04
Wow, in the context of this conversation I went back and reviewed the occurrences of tribulation and distress. The list below are all references to a span of time of tribulation/distress that effects either gods chosen people or his enemies as entire groups. There were many more examples that could be connected as well but these were the ones that had unfulfilled portions of prophecy in the context of the entire chapter of prophecy.
Matthew 24:21,29
Luke 21:23
Mark 13:19,24
Romans 2:1-16(9)
Revelation 1:9
Revelation 2:10
Revelation 2:22
Revelation 7:14
Zephaniah 1:17
Obadiah 1:12,14
Isaiah 8-12, 8:22, 9:1
Isaiah 25:4
Isaiah 26:16
Isaiah 29:2,7
Isaiah 30:6,20
Isaiah 33:2
Isaiah 43:14
Isaiah 46:7
Isaiah 65:19
Jeremiah 4:31
Jeremiah 6:24
Jeremiah 30:7
Ezekiel 13:22
Daniel 12:1
Zechariah 10:11
I believe the pattern that emerges are 3 distinct periods of tribulation.
The first being instigated by Satan and spanning 2000+ years. This being cut short to protect god’s faithful chosen ones. Followed by a transition into a 2 phase great tribulation instigated by Jehovah thru Christ first targeting his own house to be cleansed (summoning the nations as his means of executing judgement)
followed by war against those nations.
I’m still praying and meditating on the details, but it’s possible the great crowd come out of Satan’s greatest tribulation in history and are then quickened to heaven to protect them, in the “ark” of his heavenly temple sanctuary, from Jehovah’s greatest tribulation in history. These chosen ones would then descend from heaven during the recreation of heaven and earth as New Jerusalem
Comment by Tori Te on 2019-12-13 00:39:46
I have questions, dear brother. If what Jesus Christ was forewarning his followers of was the one & only Great Tribulation, are we then to believe then that there would not be yet another "Great Tribulation" as we had been taught by the Watchtower Society? or would that Great Tribulation that befell solely apostate Jerusalem foreshadow the Watchtower Society which specifically will suffer tribulation bc of its apostasy & abominations against God?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-12-13 06:11:49
The tribulation which Jesus Christ was speaking of in Matthew pertains only to the destruction of Jerusalem and affected only his Jewish followers living in Jerusalem and Judea. However, there is also "the great tribulation" which affects all those from all the nations tribes and peoples who stand before the throne of God in an approved state. This tribulation is referred to at Revelation 7:14 and appears to me to relate to the testing that all Christians undergo. I'll get into detail in my next video.
Reply by Tori Te on 2019-12-13 15:15:42
Thank you for your reply. I am very much looking forward to the next video. You do a great job and I appreciate it. :)
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-05 08:41:50
Iam glad to share your view about Daniel 12:1. I understood that you place Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 in the same timeframe? Correct?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-05 09:49:53
That's correct.
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-05 10:59:44
The same about Daniel12:6,7? What about Daniel 7:25; Rev 11:2,3 and 12:14?
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-12-13 03:45:57
Eric, that was excellent. I look forward to the ones to come. You really are proving to be an excellent teacher. Your years of study and seeking truth are paying great dividends.
Comment by Igor Kocelj on 2019-12-13 13:08:32
Thanks, Eric, for this video. I agree with the arguments you elaborated.
Relatively recently I also came to the conclusion that there was no secondary fulfilment of this prophecy, at least of the part that refers to the destruction of Jerusalem with its temple.
Interestingly, first Christians were able to recognise the sign of the "last days" of their world. However, they NEVER understood those signs to mean that their Lord's PRESENCE was imminent or actually taking place. Why? Because Jesus might have spoken about TWO separate events.
The other day, when reading Luke 21 in my Croatian Catholic Bible, I noticed an interesting division of paragraphs. With Luke 21:25, a new paragraph begins, with the following subheading: "The arrival of the Son of Man".
Consequently, itt seems that we are now still living in Luke 21:24b.
The "sign of his parousia" is the "sign of the Son of Man", simply Luke 21:27, the fulfilment of Daniel 7:13,14 is yet to come.
Anyway, looking forward to learning how you view these verses.Reply by Nightingale on 2019-12-13 16:11:55
Hello Igor, that's an interesting idea. It seems that Luke 21:24b covers a long time period - not like the Wt teaches though but starting from 70 AD - until Jesus rules as King in Jerusalem I suppose.
That would mean that the parallel verses of Matthew 24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-23 would also cover that time period. It would be the time period starting from 70 AD. During the centuries Christians have been waiting for the parousia, the lightning. True Christians have suffered from many tribulations because of their faith (2Thessalonians 1:4-6) - I wonder if that could be the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29. This would also fit with Revelation 6:9-11 and what follows after those verses which sounds very similar than Matthew 24:29.Reply by Igor Kocelj on 2019-12-20 08:34:46
Hi Nightingale!
Thank you for your comment. It made me think... Would there be (at least for Christians) a tribulation GREATER than the one that affects us daily? Throughout the centuries Christians suffered a lot. Wasn't that enough? Why would some Christians have to face "ordinary" tribulation, whereas others have to go through both "ordinary" and "great" to be tested...
As the parable of wheat and weeds says, we NOW experience tests of faith. "When persecution happens, some wither"...
However, THE TRIBULATION might refer to the judgement we would all have to face, which will reveal who we really were (are). That is when many would say: Lord, Lord, didn't we....!?...
Interestingly, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the goats had no idea that they failed. Nor did the sheep know that they did well. How come, if they had already survived the cataclismic "great tribulation"?.. Just some thoughts....Reply by Igor Kocelj on 2019-12-23 16:14:12
I agree. Daniel 12:1 comes to mind:
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
What I find interesting is that "everyone whose name is found written in the book" will be delivered. So what we do NOW certainly matters. (Compare Exodus 32:23, John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. )
Speaking about parables, the parable of 10 virgins speaks about a PERIOD when the foolish virgins would be trying to buy oil. Nevertheless, it was too late then to change anything.Reply by Igor Kocelj on 2019-12-23 16:54:04
Luke 21:24 reminds me of Daniel 9:27: "And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,g and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Reply by Nightingale on 2019-12-24 14:50:27
Hello Igor and JA
It feels more likely to me that Jerusalem is still trampled even though Rome is gone. Jerusalem was a very special place for over 1000 years. It was the capital city of God's Kingdom where God's throne was located. And that Kingdom still hasn't been restored. Eventually Jesus and Israel of God will rule from that city and then it won't be trampled by nations (or natural Jews who reject the Messiah).
And regarding Daniel 12:1, I doubt it has any fulfillment anymore in the future. The long vision began like this in Daniel 10:14: Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to *your people* in the latter days, for the vision concerns those days.
"Your people", Daniel's people the Jews as God's chosen people is long gone like is it's "latter days" in the first century.
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-05 08:37:16
Good point ili po naški , bivšem srpskohrvatskom, lepo rečeno!
Reply by Igor Kocelj on 2020-03-05 15:53:06
Hvala. tek pomalo počinjem povezivati stvari. Odgovor nam, pretpostavljam, leži pred nosom...
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-07 13:46:53
I meni se to desilo više puta. Kada shvatim neku stvar, pitam se kako ranije nisam video nešto tako očigledno. Pošto te zanimaju proročanstva, želeo bih ti preporučiti knjigu koju sam napisao nakon više godina istraživanja. Pretpostavljam da znaš ćirilicu i da ti to ne smeta? https://archive.org/details/drvonarastajiiodredjenavremena.7z Nadam se da ćeš naći vremena i pronaći odgovore na mnoga pitanja. Pozdrav!
Comment by Psalmbee on 2019-12-13 17:32:19
Excellent reasoning all the way around Meleti, I want to thank the Holy Spirit for snatching you out from where you were and putting you right where you belong. I believe many others would agree with that too.
JustAsking,
Great, great post, very informative and well felt! May I say that I was pretty Harsh with JA on my last public post to him, first I apologized privately and now do it publicly, he didn't deserve it and even if he did, I'm not the one to make that call.
Love to all,
Psalmbee
Comment by Zacheus on 2020-05-13 02:41:24
Hello all,
I am new here. I am a former jw . I was fading and then watched the CARC; the section on Jehovah's Witnesses and that finished me.
The wt used to make much of the fall of Jerusalem.
The writings of Josephus are a profound and graphic record of terrible events. I could not understand why Jesus made the call to not even pick up an outer garment until reading this and it occurred to me that going back to your house for anything kept there could have seen you trapped by neighbours relatives or a mob.
This didn't occur to me before. So thank you for clarity.
Love to all.