For the next piece of primary evidence, we will look at the planet Saturn. This article will help us to comprehend how Saturn's position in the sky can easily be used to establish the time period when Jerusalem was destroyed.
In our modern age, we take the measurement of time for granted. We can easily forget that all the technology is based on the movement of a planetary body, specifically our Earth. A year is the time it takes the Earth to make a full revolution around the sun. A day is the time it takes the Earth to make a full revolution around its axis. The movement of the planets are so consistent, so reliable, that ancient civilizations used the sky as a celestial calendar, a compass, a clock, and a map. Before GPS, a ship’s captain could navigate anywhere on earth with just a timepiece and the night sky to guide him.
The Babylonians were experts in astronomy. Over many centuries, they recorded precise planetary, solar and lunar movements as well as eclipses. The combination of these planetary positions locks them into an absolute timeline that we can trace back with precision. Each combination is as unique as a human fingerprint or a lottery ticket number.
Think of a chronological list of 12 lottery ticket numbers won on specific dates over a given year. What are the chances of those exact same numbers coming up on different dates ever again?
As we stated in the first article, our purpose here is to use the two-part article titled, "When was ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?", published in the October and November, 2011 issues of The Watchtower to demonstrate clearly that the publishers had all the information necessary to reveal the truth that they had been wrong about 607 BCE all along, yet chose to ignore it and perpetuate a harmful false teaching.
To this end, let's look at how Saturn's location can be used to establish the dating of Nebuchadnezzar's 37th regnal year. Why does that matter? It matters, because according to Jeremiah 52:12, "In the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon" Jerusalem was destroyed. The siege lasted over a year (Jeremiah 52: 4, 5). Jeremiah got a vision in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign while the city was under siege (Jeremiah 32:1, 2) So, if we can fix with precision the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, it is an easy subtraction to arrive at the year of Jerusalem's destruction.
You can be sure that if astronomical data pointed to 607 BCE, The Watchtower article would be all over it. Yet, no mention is made of Saturn's position at all. They ignore this valuable piece of evidence entirely. Why?
Let's look at the evidence, shall we?
VAT 4956 is a number assigned to a particular clay tablet which describes astronomical data relating to the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign.
The first two lines of the translation of this tablet read:
- Year 37 of Nebukadnezar, king of Babylon. Month I. (the 1st [5] of which was identical with) the 30th [6] (of the preceding month)[7], the moon became visible behind the Bull of Heaven[8]; [sunset to moonset:] ….[….][9]
- Saturn was in front of the Swallow.[10], [11] The 2nd,[12] in the morning, a rainbow stretched in the west. Night of the 3rd,[13] the moon was 2 cubits in front of [….][14]
Line two tells us that "Saturn was in front of the Swallow" (The region of the night sky today called Pisces.)
Saturn is much farther from our Sun than is Earth, and so it takes a lot longer to complete a full orbit. A single orbit is about 29.4 Earth years in fact.
Our modern clocks are divided into 12 hours. Why 12? We could have had 10 hour days and 10 hour nights, with each hour made up of 100 minutes each, and each minute divided into 100 seconds. Indeed, we could have divided our days up into segments of any length we chose, but 12 was what the time keepers long ago settled on.
The ancient astronomers also divided the sky into 12 segments known as constellations. They saw familiar star patterns and thought these resembled animals and so named them accordingly.
As Saturn orbits around the Sun, it appears to move through all 12 of these constellations. Just as the hour hand of a clock takes an hour to move through each of the twelve numbers on the clock, so Saturn takes about 2.42 years to move through each constellation. Thus, if Saturn was observed in Pisces—at the top of our celestial clock—in the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, it wouldn't appear there again for almost three decades.
As we noted before, given the precision with which we can date events based on planetary movement data, one has to wonder why such an important fact was left out. Surely anything that would categorically prove 607 BCE as the date of Jerusalem's destruction would have been front and center of the Watchtower article.
Since we know exactly where Saturn is today—you can even verify that yourself with the naked eye—all we have to do is run the numbers backward in 29.4 year orbital segments. Of course, that is tedious. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a piece of software to do that for us with the kind of precision a computer can offer? The November Watchtower article mentions a piece of software they used for their calculations. If they ran a calculation on Saturn's orbit, they make no mention of it, though it is hard to imagine they wouldn't have done so in the hopes of establishing 607 as the date.
Fortunately, we also have access to a wonderful software program that can be downloaded and run on a smart phone or tablet. It's called SkySafari 6 Plus and is available on the web or from the Apple and Android stores. I would recommend you download it yourself so you can run your own research. Make sure you get the "Plus" version or higher as the cheapest version does not allow calculations for years before Christ.
Here's a screenshot of the settings used for our own research:
The location is Baghdad, Iraq which is close to where ancient Babylon was located. The date is 588 BC. The Horizon & Sky is hidden to make it easier to see the background constellations.
Now let's see if the date of 588 produces a match with what the Babylonian astronomers recorded for the position of Saturn during the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Remember, they said it appears in front of the Swallow, which today is known as Pisces, "the Fish".
Here's the screen capture:
As we see here, Saturn was in Cancer (Latin for Crab).
Looking at the chart above showing the 12 constellations, we see that Saturn would have to move through, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpius, Sagittarius, Capricornus, and Aquarius, before reaching Pisces or the Swallow. So if we add 20 years and go with the date the Archeologists say was Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year, 568, where is Saturn?
And there we have Saturn in Pisces, just where the Babylonian astronomers said it was in the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign. That would mean that his 19th year would fall between 587/588 just as the Archeologists claim. According to Jeremiah, that was when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem.
Why would the Organization withhold this information from us?
In the November broadcast on tv.jw.org, Governing Body member Gerrit Losch told us that "Lying involves saying something incorrect to a person who is entitled to know the truth about a matter. But there is also something that is called a half-truth....So we need to speak openly and honestly with each other, not withholding bits of information that could change the perception of the listener or mislead him.
Would you think that withholding this vital astronomical data from us that pinpoints the year of Jerusalem's destruction amounts to "withholding bits of information that could change the perception" we have about 607 BCE and 1914 CE? Is the Organization, through its chief teaching instrument, "speaking openly and honestly" with us?
We might excuse this as a mistake made due to imperfection. But remember, Gerrit Losch was defining what constitutes a lie. When a true Christian makes a mistake, the correct course of action is to acknowledge it and correct it. However, what about one claiming to be a true Christian who knows something to be true and yet conceals that truth to perpetuate a false teaching. What does Gerrit Losch call that?
What would be the motivation for such an action?
We must bear in mind that pinning 607 BCE as the year of Jerusalem's destruction is the cornerstone of the 1914 doctrine. Move the date to 588, and the calculation for the start of the last days moves to 1934. They lose the World War I, the Spanish Influenza and the famines caused by the war as part of the their "composite sign". Worse, they can no longer claim 1919 as the year Christ Jesus appointed them as the Faithful and Discreet Slave (Matthew 24:45-47). Without that 1919 appointment, they cannot claim the right to exercise authority in the name of God over Christ's flock. They, therefore, have a powerful vested interest in supporting the 1914 doctrine. Still, it is hard to imagine that men you may have esteemed all your life could be capable of knowingly perpetrating such a colossal deception. Nevertheless, a critical thinker looks at the evidence, and does not allow emotion to cloud his thinking.
(For a thorough analysis of the 1914 teaching, see 1914 – A Litany of Assumptions.)
Additional Evidence
There is another piece of evidence which they have withheld. As we saw in the last article, they need us to accept the belief that there is a 20-year gap in the timeline of the kings of Babylon. That supposed gap allows them to move the date of Jerusalem's destruction back to 607. They claim that there is 20 years of information missing from the written record. In the last article, we demonstrated that no such gap exists. Does the astronomical data also demonstrate the absence of any such gap? Here is the list of two predecessor kings to Nebuchadnezzar.
| King | Number of Years | Regnal Period |
| Kandalanu | 22 years | 647 - 626 BCE |
| Nabopolassar | 21 years | 625 - 605 BCE |
| Nebuchadnezzar | 43 years | 604 - 562 BCE |
These names and dates are established by the “Saturn Tablet (British Museum Index BM 76738 + BM 76813) which is found in a book written by N.W Swerdlow, titled, Ancient Astronomy and Celestial Divination, chapter 3, “Babylonian Observations of Saturn”.[i]
Line 2 of this tablet states that in Year 1, month 4, day 24 of Kandalanu’s reign, Saturn was located in front of the Crab constellation.
Using the data from this tablet and the recorded years of each king's reign, we can see that the astronomical data continues to match Saturn’s positions all the way back to King Kandalanu who began ruling in 647 BCE.
This second confirmation, after the evidence from our last article, deals a one-two punch to the Organization's fiction of a 20-year gap. Undoubtedly, this is the reason why this evidence never found its way into the 2011 two-part article.
Examining The Watchtower's Argument
On page 25 of the November 2011 issue, we find this argument in favor of 607 BCE:
In addition to the aforementioned eclipse, there are 13 sets of lunar observations on the tablet and 15 planetary observations. These describe the position of the moon or planets in relation to certain stars or constellations.18
Because of the superior reliability of the lunar positions, researchers have carefully analyzed these 13 sets of lunar positions on VAT 4956.
Why are they going for lunar positions over planetary observations? According to footnote 18: "Though the cuneiform sign for the moon is clear and unambiguous, some of the signs for the names of the planets and their positions are unclear. "
The trusting reader is not likely to notice that no mention is made of which "signs for the names of the planets...are unclear". Additionally, we are not told who the researchers are who have carefully analyzed the "13 sets of lunar positions". For us to be sure there is no bias, these researchers must have no connection with the Organization. Additionally, why do they not share the details of their research as we have done here in this article, so that the readers of The Watchtower can verify the findings for themselves?
For instance, they make this claim from the second Watchtower article:
"While not all of these sets of lunar positions match the year 568/567 B.C.E., all 13 sets match calculated positions for 20 years earlier, for the year 588/587 B.C.E." (p. 27)
We have already seen in these two Watchtower articles that hard archeological and astronomical data and primary source evidence have been omitted or misrepresented. Gerrit Losch, in the video cited earlier, said: "Lies and half-truths undermine trust. A German proverb says: “Who lies once is not believed, even if he says the truth.”
Given that, they can hardly expect us to now take everything they write as gospel truth. We need to check things for ourselves to see if they are telling us the truth or misleading us. It may well be a challenge for those of us raised as Witnesses to believe that the leadership of the Organization could be capable of willful deception, yet the facts we've already uncovered make it difficult to look the other way. Given that, we will take the time in a future article to examine their claim to see if the lunar data does indeed point to 588 versus 586 BCE.
____________________________________________________________
[i] Use https://www.worldcat.org/ to locate this book at your local library.
[ii]http://www.adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/VAT4956/VAT4956ATranscriptionOfItsTranslationAndComments.htm
Archived Comments
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Comment by Chet on 2020-02-09 11:47:27
For most of my life, I took the Watchtower at their word. I never looked into the veracity of their claims. I do recall thinking, at times, that we put a lot of trust in these men, but I believed that it was well placed trust for many years.
When I left off activity as a JW, it was because of the gossip and meddling, some of which had cost me dearly, as I defended myself from the same shopworn and baseless accusations, over and over again. I held out a degree of hope that there would be reform and this was most likely due to the fact that I believed their narrative regarding Christ’s choosing of them in 1919.
Quite incidentally, one day when I was searching for something completely unrelated to the Witnesses, I saw the term “Great Disappointment” as part of some search results. Having an unlimited appetite for learning about the ironies of life, I had to find out what this was. It was at that point I learned about William Miller and the Second Adventist movement of his day. As I dug deeper, I had an amazing sense of deja vu. I had lived through the 1975 debacle from end to end, having heard about that date in 1966 and having heard COs counting down the months to Armageddon. (The Organization has attempted to whitewash this debacle out of existence, but I was there and saw it firsthand.) The comments made in Miller’s day sounded strikingly similar to what was coming out of Brooklyn in the years leading up to ‘75. The actions of Miller’s followers were quite similar to what was happening with the rank and file JWs in the years before ‘75. It was almost as if someone had read about Miller’s Great Disappointment and decided that it would be amusing to do it all over again.
It was this discovery which made me take a very hard look at the veracity of what I had been taught by the Witnesses. It wasn’t long before the question of 607 B.C.E. came to my attention and it was a matter of microseconds later that I realized the ramifications of this information upon the Organization’s claims regarding 1919. The entire edifice of their narrative collapsed instantly. More importantly, their credibility was completely gone, in my eyes. Things I believed to “know” since my earliest memories were now questionable. A lifetime spent as an outsider now seemed misspent.
The point here is that the JW teachings pivot upon 607 as being a valid date. It is like the center pole in a very large tent; without its support, very little else matters. I’ve been able to find the teachings I so love in other places. The concept of a restored earth is certainly not the exclusive property of Witnesses, and for that matter, there are plenty of Christian groups that do not believe in hellfire or a universal heavenly hope for the saved. One Witness teaching I’ve never found elsewhere is the notion that Christ died for a relative few (the Anointed) and that everyone else is saved by association with these persons.
This teaching has surfaced occasionally in Witness literature and, IMHO, is pure strychnine. This goes directly against what the Bible says about Christ dying for all mankind. Conveniently enough, for the Organization, it creates a class system which is unassailable by the average rank and file Witness. To take a stand against this, or even to question it, would be tantamount to a Catholic grabbing the Pope’s mitre and selling it on eBay. To the convinced JW, the Faithful and Discreet Slave must be obeyed and most certainly must be supported materially. If “The Slave” demands title to real properties how can someone of the “Other Sheep” even begin to question their motives. Since claiming the title “Faithful and Discreet Slave” as exclusively for the Governing Body, these man have placed themselves as being intrinsic to salvation itself.
The only hope these clowns have is to maintain the pretense that they were selected by Christ in 1919 that date relies upon the support of their faulty chronology, based upon the date of 607 BCE. Every word that they use to support that date only serves to paint themselves more deeply into a corner from which there is no escape. It is my suspicion that there are any number of people at, or near, the top of the Organization who realize that they are trapped and can only hope that they don’t end up on the street, penniless and without Social Security benefits. They’ve built the very trap in which they now find themselves caught.
Comment by vinman on 2020-02-09 13:05:53
I haven't been around in a while. I needed to learn and take in knowledge for the past few years. It has been a long journey. But it naturally without any self-delusion, has brought me back full circle to God's word. In my journey, I have extensively studied the NEW WORLD ORDER agenda. This is not a man-made construct. It is a supernatural agenda that most are asleep to.
Why am I mentioning this? It is because as I studied this agenda, my mind kept going back to the parallels between this agenda and The Watchtower. First, on the CIA website there is a document that states clearly that the Watchtower Society is definitely part of the Illuminati bloodlines.
When you study how all major events (WW 1,2, GREAT DEPRESSION, Great recession, etc) have been orchestrated by the Cabal/ Illuminati/Zionists, you learn about their timelines.
World War 1 was an orchestrated war that was designed to bring in the New World Order. That is why it was called the war to end all wars. But the New World Order agenda, did not achieve what it desired. Hence more events were orchestrated in order for this agenda to come to its tuition.
This agenda currently is heading forward so fast, that we can't even keep up with the events in connection with it.
I began to view the Watchtower Society, as a model for the New World Order. First of all, there is no doubt that Charles Russell was influenced by the Freemasons. 1914 was a special year for the Watchtower Society. It's almost as if they knew about the timeline that I am talking about. But then when things didn't happen, they had to change their views. Later, they began to talk about how things would happen before the generation of 1914 passes away. Then that generation pretty much passed away. And the New World Order. did not arrive. Then they came up with this. Overlapping Generations. And according to some, this too has a deadline. That deadline is said to be around the year 2030 or 2032 or something like that. Well the New World Order agenda, which is speeding up right now, is that in 2030 the United Nations wants to implement Agenda 21. This is part of the NWO.
I just find it very strange that the Watchtower Society keeps changing its timeline and that timeline seems to fit with the New World Order. Also, too, They've always called The Paradise Earth the new world. Then they changed it to the new system.. Their Bible is called the New World Translation. Even the way they operate, In connection with keeping people busy and the mind control, are all very similar to what we see going on today.
Having said all this, that is why it concerns me. That the Watchtower Society has repeatedly told their people be obedient, even if it goes against human reasoning. Why do they keep saying this? I'm beginning to believe that the new world that the witnesses think they're looking forward to, is not the new world the Watchtower Society is thinking about.Reply by Warp Speed on 2020-02-09 13:58:26
Good to hear from you Vinman. I haven’t been around for a while myself. I have come to very similar conclusion also.
Rock on,
WS
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-02-09 14:14:23
Can you give us that link to the CIA Website about the Watchtower and the Illuminati?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-02-09 18:24:04
How do we know if any of that is true?
Reply by Psalmbee on 2020-02-09 21:15:23
Hi Meleti,
I have read those documents before, while very interesting and I'm sure a lot is at least half true, it's still a bias new world conspiracy theory, and in my opinion are not official documents from the CIA.
Psalmbee
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-02-10 15:31:48
Thank you, Just Asking. I was worried that that was the case, but didn't want to act precipitously. I don't want the site used to promote conspiracy theories. There are already too many out there, and sadly, too many people who seem to believe anything just because someone took the time to write it down.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-02-10 16:49:51
Not sure what to make of that source, Vinman, although it did lead me on to another slightly more interesting publication "The Watchtower and the Masons", having previously been reading about "The Brotherhood" by Stephen Knight.
In the Watchtower and the Masons publication the writer stated "although the WT does have material on self improvement, the thrust is not really on personal growth, but on production quotas". The author likens this to the old communist systems, where the factories produce not to fulfil demand, but to produce a quota.
The lack of "New light" is the main cause of this present tack. WT could help us be better Christians, but maintaining the growth is vital to keep the "Jehovah is blessing us" mantra.
However, there was one quote in the Illuminati publication which did worry me, and that was references to the the Memorial, where essentially no one partakes. The more this goes on, the more I do wonder what Jesus thinks of what they are doing..
Reply by Chet on 2020-02-10 20:48:52
Considering that Ted Bundy was adopted into the Bundy family name at the age of five when his mother married someone of that surname, I would say that the link with the family of Mc George Bundy exists only in someone's imagination.
It would be gratifying to find some link between the Watchtower and persons with a heritage of evil, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if Russell was somehow proven to be a Satanist charlatan, that would have little relevance today. The Watchtower of Russell's day was to a great extent subsumed by the changes of the Rutherford era and the modern Organization has changed drastically.
I was baptized during the Knorr years, but after he died, the Organization changed drastically in structure, with the Governing Body taking on virtually all of the authority. But the Governing Body of the late '70s is not the Governing Body of today.
I. speaking only for myself, think of the Organization as having several major subdivisions of time. The Russell years, the Rutherford Years, the Knorr years, the era of the GB (which I feel started in earnest with the death of Nathan Knorr) and perhaps the most drastic change coming in 2013, when the current GB claimed unto themselves exclusive ownership of the title Faithful and Discreet Slave.
Even within these eras, there were many changes. Rutherford changed the direction of the organization considerably from that of Russell. It is my opinion that the Watchtower 'brand" was applied to Rutherford's ideas which meshed with Russell's to some degree, but came to diverge from Russell significantly.
My point, however is simple: no matter what the history of the Organization, there is little reason to think that the heritage of certain founding members would be of any influence at this point in time.
It is easy to point fingers and claim that being from a certain bloodline means something, but I can state from firsthand experience that the wealth and influence of the US' founding families means little at this point in time. I can trace my lineage back to some of the first settlers of North America and, i assure you, it has no influence whatsoever in my life and I certainly am not heir to any long-standing wealth. I think that the entire notion of bloodlines making one part of a secret society smacks of demagoguery.
There is one aspect of that paper, however, which piqued my attention. The portion regarding the Memorial sticks with me. The pantomime communion has always struck me as strange. If I'm not invited to partake, why am I invited to the occasion of the meal? Jesus commanded all present to drink of the cup. I am confident in the earthly hope, but I believe that all Christians are part of communion. The WT teaches that only a relative handful of its members have any standing before the Christ, but I can't follow them in that belief.
If the pantomime communion which is observed in many places has roots in something else, I couldn't be all that surprised. Even when I was attending and long before I developed any serious doubts regarding the Witnesses, it always struck me as odd that Memorial was acted out the way it was. I believed their reasons for not partaking, at the time, but it always seemed strange that we would even bother to attend, when we were no part of the ceremony.
I have heard from numerous sources that in the Bethel library there are a number of occult books. This does raise serious concerns on my part. I would suggest that the events in ancient Ephesus serve as a model of how to handle such things and I would STRONGLY suggest to the leadership of the WT that they destroy these without delay. I doubt highly that they will ever do it, but IMO, they certainly should. If anything makes me suspect that the Organization has occult ties, the presence of those books would be my number one concern.
Reply by simplyme on 2020-02-09 14:34:54
Hey Vinman,
I too agree with your conclusion. When I was all in as a JW I became aware of the New World Order and did a lot of research on it and still keep up with their agenda. At the time I thought it was very curious the Society used very similar terminology. As you brought out, the New World translation and the New World we were looking forward to. I thought this was another stunt of Satans, to mimic Jehovah’s purpose. Now I know better. They were not promoting God’s purpose.
Reply by stephen on 2020-02-12 18:42:24
Hi Vinman
There is really nothing to fear about New World Order predictions. Humans have been predicting all kinds of end day scenarios since the earliest history records show that we have available.
In the Western world we have things like the overlapping generation which some predict will happen in 2030 but in the Eastern part of the world others believe something else will happen in the last day of 2030.
There are 7 billion crazy humans on the planet each with their own nightmares trolling around their heads.
The Watchtower organization is just .001 percent of those predicting something is about to happen very soon. Not even one percent.
Here is a list of a few the end time predictions humans have made.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-02-09 16:23:42
Eric, that was a very interesting article, which I hope to test against the software sometime.
Where is one of the easiest scriptures to prove 587 BCE as the date for the fall of Jerusalem ?
1. It relies on the pivotal date and there is no dispute on the date when it was written.
2. It uses one verse and two additional scriptures to prove its point.
3. It cannot be misread.
4. Even JW Org's attempt to undermine its credibility do not hold water.
5. There is no dispute as to the events referred to (Fall of Jerusalem and Gedaliah's assassination)
The scripture is Zechariah 7:5
Check it out and prove it to yourself. Any problems ? come back and let us know.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-02-09 18:21:24
The fourth year of Darius was 518. Wonderful catch, Leonardo!
Comment by Frankie on 2020-02-09 17:39:02
Thank you Eric for very nice reasoning, using the historical and astronomical arguments. The way of explanation is clear, illustrative and logical and your article (as well as the previous Part 1) can serve as good material for many JWs awakening. I'm going to use it as well. Thanks also to commenters for interesting thoughts.
Love to you and all. Frankie.
Comment by matijevic on 2020-03-03 10:15:15
I would like to recommend this book: https://archive.org/details/treegenerationsandappointedtimes.7z
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-03 10:22:03
Please tell us why you would recommend this book.
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-03 10:32:11
Hello Vivlon, thanks for asking. This is my brainchild of which I am very proud. I finished it after years of research. I read " The gentile times reconsidered" as you, I presume. However, I find ditching 7 times and especially 607 b.c as very problematic from Christian viewpoint. I would like to share my conclusion with opem minded people!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-03 11:02:17
Call me Meleti, please. Why would ditching a false date for the destruction of Jerusalem prove problematic for Christians?
Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-03 11:19:37
Ok, Meleti. If what modern chronology says is true, than Jeremiah and Daniel are false prophets. This is only logical conclusion if we want to be honest. 70 years of desolated Jerusalem and Judah can not be harmonized with the chronology without distorting words of these two prophets. By domino effect we should ditch Bible as the word of God. Read it please, 100 pages.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-03 17:45:37
I noticed in your first comment that you appealed to the open minded among us. I think it safe to say that after dialoguing with these brothers for the past eight years, it would be hard to find the more open-minded group. However, being open-minded doesn't mean one is willing to go over the same evidence time and again. What it means is that one is willing to look at all the evidence before drawing a conclusion. Once all the evidence is in and it points to a particular truth, what benefit is there to going over it again. Of course, if new evidence surfaces, then there would be cause for further examination. However, it seems unfair to expect us to read 100 pages of dialogue in the hope that there is something new that we have yet to consider on this matter. If you feel we have missed something, then why not just stated in the comment. But first you might want to examine what is already been written on the subject on this site. For instance, check out the comments under this article: https://beroeans.net/2017/01/15/called-out-of-darkness/
I would also recommend you do a search on the topic on www.discussthetruth.com.
That is just one example of course. As I said, we have discussed this issue for years now from all sides. The problem lies with the interpretation men give to the Scriptures in Daniel and Jeremiah. If you impose the particular interpretation of the organization on the word "desolations", you're stuck with the conundrum of trying to make the Bible fit with known archaeological evidence. When there is ambiguity in the interpretation of a text or the meaning of the word as it applies to a specific instance, the ambiguity must be resolved by outside sources. Given the abundance of evidence that 607 was not the year that Jerusalem was destroyed, we must opt for the interpretation that allows the Bible to be true without conflicting with hard facts.Reply by matijevic on 2020-03-04 13:25:11
Glad to hear I am among open minded persons. I appreciate it very much! However, your implying that I have not a single new evidence to offer makes me sad. I wrote that the book is MY (not WTS) brainchild, and that I finished it after YEARS of research. You did not even bother to take a glance!Sinful people are full of prejudice, I am not an exeption, but I am trying to show respect to everyone! Anyway,thanks for the chance to say what I think is important. Here are some crumbles from my book which are relevant to the topic: "However, the strongest evidence against modern chronology gives the word of God, because you just can not fit it into the orthodox mold without distortion its message! 2,600 years ago, Jehovah encouraged Jeremiah to write down these words: "And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years." (Jeremiah 25:11) I believe that nearly everyone who hear these words for the first time concluded that prophet predicts 70 years of servitude to the king of Babylon after or when land (of Judah) becomes a ruin. But, for the sake of the mold, we must understand that the servitude starts before devastation of the land. To support this interpretation, Jeremiah 29:10 is used: " For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’ " Verse and context can actually be utilized for the benefit of serving before the devastation. Prophet's words to the first exiles to Babylon were probably written seven years before the Babylonian destruction of the land of Judah (Jer 28: 1). Accordingly, Carl Olof raises two questions: " If the period had not commenced, why did Jeremiah connect it with the exiles’ staying on at Babylon? If the seventy-year period was not already in progress, what relevance is there in Jeremiah’s reference to it? " Carl then concludes: " Jeremiah did not urge the exiles to wait until the seventy years would begin, but to wait until the period had been completed. " The conclusion is correct, but it does not provide undeniable evidence that the seventy prophetic years begun before the destruction of Jerusalem. If 70 years commence with the destruction of Jerusalem, what reason had Jeremiah to encourage his compatriots to wait for this event? It did not bring any change for the better for the first exiles. On the other hand, the end of 70 years has meant the end of exile for all the people of Jehovah, and that is why Jeremiah could connect it with the first group of exiles living in Babylon. (Ezra 1: 2,3) The Bible in many places clearly links the beginning of this period with the destruction of the city and the temple of Jehovah: " For, look! it is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity, and should YOU yourselves in any way go free of punishment? YOU will not go free of punishment, for there is a sword that I am calling against all the inhabitants of the earth, is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. " (Jer 25:29) Although article 607 BCE What Does Mean to You, and Does it Matter? proposes something else, 25th chapter of Jeremiah testifies that Jerusalem was punished first and then the surrounding nations, and that that 70 years primarily relates to Judah. (verses 1-3, 7-9, 10,11, 15-24) Also, Jeremiah and Daniel mention what that punishment or calamity includes: " This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’... He has carried out his words that he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled over us, by bringing great calamity on us; nothing has ever been done under the whole heavens such as what was done in Jerusalem. " (Jeremiah 25: 32,33; Daniel 9:12) Who does not know what these words refer to should read Jer 52: 12.13, 2 Chronicles 36: 17-19 and Lamentations 2: 20-22. In addition, Daniel 9: 2 provides important detail: " I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years. " (Daniel 9: 2) First inspired interpretation of the book of Jeremiah makes a clear link between 70 years and devastated Jerusalem! Some try to belittle this conclusion by stating that it is in conflict with Jeremiah's prophecy. I believe the provided evidence indicates that Jer 29:10 could be harmonized with the conclusion, while 25th chapter actually (I would say strongly) supports the conclusion that 70 years begin with the destruction of Jerusalem. Many decades later, Jehovah encouraged Ezra to write the following: " So he brought against them the king of the Chal·de′ans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary; he felt no compassion for young man or virgin, old or infirm. God gave everything into his hand. All the utensils of the house of the true God, great and small, as well as the treasures of the house of Jehovah and the treasures of the king and his princes, everything he brought to Babylon. He burned down the house of the true God, tore down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its fortified towers with fire, and destroyed everything of value. He carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign, to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years. "(2 Chron 36: 17-21) Тhis writer too connects 70 years with desolated Jerusalem! Carl tries to deal with the evidence by claiming that Ezra refers to two prophecies (Leviticus 26: 34,35; Jeremiah 29:10), that 70 years relatе to the servitude to Babylon as a world power, that the end of Babylonian domination resulted in the return of the Jews to their homeland and that therefore the two biblical writers connected the 70 years with devastated Jerusalem. (pages 209-235) In contrast, the Bible says: " to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land ... " not " by Jeremiah and Moses "! Since God's Word warns us not to add anything, (1 Cor 4: 6; Rev 22:18) I would give priority to the possibility that Ezra understood by reading the book of Jeremiah and thinking about verses from Leviticus that 70 years does not apply only to servitude to Babylon but also to making up for all the Sabbath years. (Jer 34: 8-22; Exodus 21: 2; Lev 25:10) Also, the assumption that 70 years relates to the servitude to Babylon when it becomes a world power has no basis in the Bible! Earlier, some believed that this period lasted from 605 to 539 BC, or from the time when Nebuchadnezzar became the ruler until the conquest of Babylon. However, this period covers 66 rather than 70 years. This would mean that God is a bit imprecise and that’s why this interpretation is not popular among the faithful. Newer interpretation moves the starting point to 609 BC, the year when, according to the official chronology, Assyria was destroyed and Babylon assumed the role of a world power. The Bible connects this event with the death of King Josiah and placing a ruler under the administration of Egypt (2 Kings 23: 28-35) !!! Servitude to Babylon, to their misfortune, is mentioned only at the time of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, and that brings us back according to the official chronology, to the 605 BC as the earliest starting point! (Jer 27: 5-7) If we want to be more precise, we need to understand that seven years before the destruction of Jerusalem (594 BC), the inhabitants of Judah still could choose whether or not they want to serve the ruler of Babylon: " If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nez′zar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand. " (Jer 27: 8) Since the Jews decided not to serve Nebuchadnezzar during this time, why would Jehovah counted years before the destruction of Jerusalem as the years of servitude to Babylon? In contrast to the voluntary service, 25th chapter of Jeremiah emphasize compulsory or involuntary servitude: " And if they refuse to take the cup out of your hand to drink, say to them, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: You must drink it! " (Verse 28) The time when the Jewish people were forced to serve Babylon is the time of the devastation of Jerusalem and the land of Judah. That's all from me. I know that I did not provide all the answers and that's why I would like to direct attention to the book Jerusalem 607 BCE where you can find plenty of good information."
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-04 14:53:47
You write, “However, your implying that I have not a single new evidence to offer makes me sad.” You may be inferring that, but I certainly wasn’t implying it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have said that ‘if we have missed something then why not just state it in your comment.’ My point is that you are expecting us to spend an enormous amount of time in the hope that you have something new. We don’t know you so why should we invest that amount of time without good reason? Does it not seem more reasonable for you to state the things that you have which are new? Things you believe we have overlooked? If you did that, then we would have reason to read your book.
I hope you can see that I am not rejecting your book out of hand. But please understand that I get referrals like yours every week and if I devoted time to reading them all, I’d get nothing done. So, I have to be wise in how I invest my time.
I appreciate that you have finally shared some of the highlights from your book, though I found it a challenge to follow because everything was in one big block paragraph and there were quite a number of grammatical errors that hindered the flow of thought. That being said, I like to thank you for sharing this information with our readers as it will help them to determine whether or not they’d like to delve into your book.
My best regards,
Meleti Vivlon
Reply by Chet on 2020-03-04 16:33:03
If I may chime in, I would like to offer my perspective on the matter.
I've discussed the 607 matter with a number of JWs, ex JWs and people somewhere in between whom harbor doubts. Almost invariably, when I mention that the correct date is more on the order of 587 or 586 BCE, the immediate reaction is to state that the End Times started in 1934 or 1935. To my way of thinking, this misses the point entirely. Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority."
It doesn't matter when Jerusalem was desolated, because that is not germane to the issue. The Father has set the time and if we take the square root of Daniel times the hypotenuse of Jeremiah, it might make for interesting speculation, but there's absolutely no reason to think that Jehovah has hidden clues in His word so that the mathematically gifted can learn a secret reserved unto the Father only and not even revealed to the Son. Matt 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only."
Back in 1975, at the District convention I attended, I heard from the platform that determining the date of Armageddon from chronology. The speaker pointed out that if Jesus, whom had existed in pre-human form and was the Master Worker of all creation, was not able to piece it together from math, we wouldn't either. (I'm surprised he wasn't burned at the stake for speaking this truth. Maybe he was.) :)
Simply stated, trying to use the Bible as a math puzzle is futile. God is smarter than that. He's not about to reveal tactical details to His opposer and He's way too smart to have left breadcrumbs in His word which would allow us to answer questions He plainly does not want us to answer.
Carl Olof Jonsson is, by all appearances, a sincere and decent man whom sought to find the truth. He presented his information to the Society and was slapped in the face for telling the truth. Ironic, for a religion that likes to refer to itself as The Truth.
If there's a lesson in all of this, I would see it as to learn from the mistakes of the past and to take Jesus' words at face value. He didn't know when Armageddon was coming, neither do we, neither should we, according to Acts 1:7. Take just a moment and think of this: if you knew the date of Armageddon, would that be good for you? Think carefully about that. If Jehovah parted the clouds above and and gave you a vision telling the precise date of Armageddon, would that be good for you? My take is that it would probably destroy you. If you knew for a certainty the details of how all this would come to pass, would you be able to bear the burdens of all this? If you knew that a week from next Tuesday the most significant event since the Flood would happen, would you be able to carry that information around inside your head? I don't think I could. Without some vagueness, we'd all be in a serious emotional vortex. Our Heavenly Father knows our limitations and isn't going to burden us with information which goes beyond our needs,
After 60+ years exposure to Witness teachings, and with almost all of my relatives either active Witnesses, or completely alienated because they have fled the Witnesses in the family, my conclusion is that the entire exercise is a waste. I'm not saying that the Bible is a waste; I don't believe that for a moment, but I am saying that trying to second guess the future by cherry picking verses from the Bible IS a waste. and it's a colossal waste, at that. Bible prophecy was not written to let us predict the future, but to show us what to expect overall and allow us to recognize events if they should happen to unfold in our lifetime. Going beyond what is written in scripture accomplishes nothing.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-05 07:18:41
Your chimes are always welcome, Chet.
Reply by Chet on 2020-03-05 07:30:53
Thank you sir. I’ll keep chiming. :)
Comment by Is the Governing Body Knowingly Deceiving Us over 607 B.C.E.? (Part 1) - Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2020-04-15 11:46:59
[…] To view the next article in this series, follow this link. […]
Comment by Biblicaly Inclined on 2020-04-29 08:09:30
Sorry for late commenting I recently just found the site... But in the Watchtower publications they say that it took two years for the Jews to return to Jerusalem
Even before the end of the 70 years of exile, Babylon fell, in 539 B.C.E., to the invading armies of Persian King Cyrus. Then, during his first year as ruler of Babylon, Cyrus issued a decree opening the way for the Jewish exiles to return to Jerusalem. (Ezr 1:1-4) A remnant that numbered 42,360 (including men, women, and children) made the journey, arriving in Judah in 537 B.C.E. (Ezr 1:5–3:1; 4:1) Thus the 70 years’ desolation ended exactly on time.
The above quote is from Insight under the Subtitle "Exiles Return from Babylon"
My question is, Is there any historical or scriptural evidence that the journey from Babylon to Judah would take two Years as this Insight volume is suggesting?.
Thanks for your time.Reply by Chet on 2020-04-29 10:03:27
Without going into any great depth in my research, I would say that it's very unlikely. The return to Zion was something which started with a relatively small group, so the number 42,360 seems realistic enough. However, if you were going to travel from Iraq to Israel on foot, it's hard to imagine that anyone would choose to linger along the way.
Reply by Biblicaly Inclined on 2020-04-29 15:52:18
Yeah. It really seemed strange to me, because the only thing clearly stated is that they arrived during the 7th month of the first year of king Cyrus. There is nothing to establish exactly how long the journey took. As if it had any prophetic importance.
Reply by Chet on 2020-04-29 19:07:41
That’s the real folly; attaching prophetic significance to every aspect of every thing. If you stop to think about it, the Adventist theories are very similar to numerology.
If you arbitrarily make up interpretive rules as you go along, you can derive apparent meaning from almost anything. Israel was warned against looking for signs of this nature and told not to allow soothsayers, or the like, in their midst. It’s a dangerous way to manage your affairs. If a large text document is entered into a computer and you vary the number of characters per line, you can find all sorts of acrostic words in the text. The text of the Bible has been used this way and some take these as code, embedded in scripture, but in reality, it’s meaningless.
Much of what the Watchtower has taught is similarly fanciful, cherry-picking verses from various books of the Bible and using these to bolster their ideas, but in reality, they are making up their rules of interpretation as they see fit, picking and choosing the “evidence” which supports their eisegesis. In the final analysis, misusing the Bible in this way has no more significance than numerology.
Comment by ctron on 2021-07-14 01:35:12
I found a post where someone shows that VAT 4956 is apparently not that reliable. I don't know what I should think about that.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/260873/jw-apologist-writes-about-vat-4956#4826225
Comment by Francisco Souza on 2021-10-03 02:46:24
I have researched a lot about the 607 BCE data, and although Jeremiah say in the prophecy that the 70 years would be Babylon's dominion over the nations including Jerusalem and Judah some texts actually imply that a calamid was specially applied to Jerusalem as punishment from Jehovah. And that the calamity or the 70 years would begin or begin with the city that invokes his name, which of course is Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 25:29). And in the following verses 32 and 33 he even describes calamide as a killing of many people. Didn't Jeremiah indicate in these words that the calamid or the 70 years would begin with the devastation of Jerusalem?