This is video number five in our series, “Saving Humanity.” Up to this point, we have demonstrated that there are two ways of viewing life and death. There is “alive” or “dead” as we believers see it, and, of course, this is the only view that atheists have. However, people of faith and understanding will recognize that what counts is how our Creator views life and death.
It is therefore possible to be dead, yet in God’s eyes, we live. “He is not the God of the dead [referring to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] but of the living, for to Him all are alive.” Luke 20:38 BSB Or we can be alive, yet God sees us as dead. But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.” Matthew 8:22 BSB
When you factor in the element of time, this really starts to make sense. To take the ultimate example, Jesus Christ died and was in the tomb for three days, yet he was alive to God, meaning that it was only a question of time before he was alive in every sense. Though men had killed him, they could do nothing to stop the Father from returning his son to life and more, of granting him immortality.
By His power God raised the Lord from the dead, and He will raise us also. 1 Cor 6:14 And “But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.” Acts 2:24
Now, nothing can kill the son of God. Imagine the same thing for you and me, immortal life.
To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev 3:21 BSB
This is what is being offered to us now. This means that even if you die or are killed as Jesus was, you merely go into a sleep-like state until the time for you to wake up. When you go to sleep each night, you do not die. You continue living and when you awaken in the morning, you still continue living. In a similar manner, when you die, you continue living and when you awaken in the resurrection, you still continue living. This is because as a child of God, you have already been given eternal life. This is why Paul told Timothy to “Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12 NIV)
But what of those who do not have this faith, who, for whatever reason, have not taken hold of eternal life? God’s love is manifest in that he has provided for a second resurrection, a resurrection to judgment.
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29 BSB)
In this resurrection, humans are restored to life on earth but remain in a state of sin, and without faith in Christ, are still dead in God’s eyes. During the 1000-year reign of Christ, there will be provisions made for these resurrected ones by which they can exercise their free will and accept God as their Father through the redeeming power of Christ’s human life offered in their behalf; or, they can reject it. Their choice. They can choose life, or death.
It is all so binary. Two deaths, two lifes, two resurrections, and now two sets of eyes. Yes, to understand our salvation fully, we need to see things not with the eyes in our head but with eyes of faith. Indeed, as Christians, “We walk by faith, not by sight.” (2 Corinthians 5:7)
Without the eyesight that faith provides, we will look at the world and draw the wrong conclusion. An example of the conclusion that countless people have drawn can be demonstrated from this excerpt of an interview with the multi-talented Stephen Fry.
Stephen Fry is an atheist, yet here he is not challenging the existence of God, but rather takes the view that is there really were a God, he would have to be a moral monster. He believes that the misery and suffering that is being experienced by humankind is not our fault. Therefore, God must take the blame. Mind you, since he really doesn’t believe in God, one can’t help but wonder who is left to take the blame.
As I’ve said, Stephen Fry’s view is hardly unique, but is representative of a large and growing number of people in what is steadily becoming a post-Christian world. This view can influence us as well, if we are not vigilant. The critical thinking that we have used to escape from false religion must not be turned off ever. Sadly, many who have escaped false religion, have succumbed to the superficial logic of humanists, and lost all faith in God. Thus, they are blind to anything they cannot see with their physical eyes
They reason: if there really were a loving God, all knowing, all powerful, he would have ended the suffering of the world. Therefore, either he doesn’t exist, or he is, as Fry put it, stupid and evil.
Those who reason this way are very, very wrong, and to demonstrate why, let’s engage in a little thought experiment.
Let us put you in God’s place. You are now all-knowing, all-powerful. You see the suffering of the world and you want to fix it. You start with disease, but not just bone cancer in a child, but all disease. It’s a fairly easy fix for an all-powerful God. Just give humans an immune system capable of fighting off any virus or bacteria. However, foreign organisms are not the only cause for suffering and death. We all get old, grow decrepit, and eventually died of old age even if we are free of disease. So, to end suffering you will have to end the aging process and death. You will have to extend life eternally to truly end pain and suffering.
But that brings with it, its own problems, because men are often the architects of mankind’s greatest suffering. Men are polluting the earth. Men are exterminating the animals and wiping out huge tracts of vegetation, affecting the climate. Men cause wars and the death of millions. There is the misery caused by poverty resulting from our economic systems. On the local level, there are murders and muggings. There is the abuse of children and the weak—domestic abuse. If you’re truly going to eliminate the misery, pain, and suffering of the world as God Almighty, you have to eliminate all of this as well.
This is where things get dicey. Do you kill everyone who causes pain and suffering of any kind? Or, if you don’t want to kill anyone, you could just reach into their mind and make it so that they cannot do anything wrong? That way no one has to die. You could solve all of mankind’s problems by turning people into biological robots, programmed to do only good and moral things.
It is so easy to play the armchair quarterback until they actually put you in the game. I can tell you from my study of the Bible that not only does God want to end the suffering, but that he has been actively engaged in doing so since the very beginning. However, the quick fix that so many people want will simply not be the solution they need. God cannot remove our free will because we are his children, made in his image. A loving father does not want robots for children, but individuals who are guided by a keen moral sense and wise self-determination. To achieve the end of suffering while preserving our free will presents us with a problem that only God can solve. The rest of the videos in this series will examine that solution.
Along the way, we’re going to encounter some things which viewed superficially or more accurately viewed physically without the eyes of faith will seem to be indefensible atrocities. For example, we will ask ourselves: “How could a loving God destroy the entire world of Mankind, including young children, drowning them in the flood of Noah’s day? Why would a just God burn up the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah without even giving them a chance to repent? Why did God order the genocide of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan? Why would God kill 70,000 of his own people because the King took a census of the nation? How can we consider the Almighty to be a loving and just Father when we learn that to punish David and Bathsheba for their sin, he killed their innocent newborn child?
These questions need to be answered if we are going to build our faith on solid ground. However, are we asking these questions based on a faulty premise? Let us take what might seem the most indefensible of these questions: the death of David and Bathsheba’s child. David and Bathsheba also died much later, but they died. In fact, so that everyone of that generation, and for that matter every generation that followed up to the present one. So why are we concerned about the death of one baby, and not the death of billions of humans? Is it because we have the idea that the baby was deprived of the normal lifespan everyone has a right to? Do we believe that everyone has a right to die a natural death? From where do we get the idea that any human death can be considered natural?
The average dog lives between 12 to 14 years of age; Cats, 12 to 18; among the longest-lived animals is the Bowhead Whale who lives over 200 years, but all animals die. That is their nature. That is what it means to die a natural death. An evolutionist will consider a man to be just another animal with a lifespan well under a century on average, though modern medicine has managed to push it upwards a little. Still, he naturally dies when evolution has got from him what it looks for: procreation. After he can no longer procreate, evolution is done with him.
However, according to the Bible, humans are much more than animals. being made in God’s image and as such are considered God’s children. As children of God, we inherit everlasting life. So, the lifespan of humans currently is, according to the Bible, anything but natural. Given that, we must conclude that we die because we were condemned to die by God due to the original sin which we have all inherited
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 BSB
So, rather than worry about the death of one innocent baby, we should be concerned about what it means that God has condemned all of us, billions of us, to death. Does that seem fair given that none of us chose to be born as sinners? I daresay that if given the choice, most of us would gladly choose to be born without sinful inclinations.
One fellow, someone who commented on the YouTube channel, seemed eager to find fault with God. He asked me what I thought of God that would drown a baby. (I’m assuming he was referring to the flood of Noah’s day.) It seemed like a loaded question, so I decided to test out his agenda. Instead of answering directly, I asked him if he believed that God could resurrect those who have died. He would not accept that as a premise. Now, given that this question assumes that God is the creator of all life, why would he reject the possibility that God could re-create life? Evidently, he wanted to reject any thing that would allow God to be exonerated. The resurrection hope does exactly that.
In our next video, we will get into many of the so-called “atrocities” that God has committed and learn that they are anything but that. For now, however, we need to establish a fundamental premise that changes the whole landscape. God is not a man with the limitations of a human. He has no such limitations. His power allows him to correct any wrong, undo any damage. To illustrate, if you are an atheist and are sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole, but are given the choice of execution by lethal injection, which would you choose? I think it is safe to say that most would prefer to live, even in those circumstances. But take that scenario and put it into the hands of a child of God. I can only speak for myself, but if I were given the opportunity to choose between spending the rest of my life in a cement box surrounded by some of the worst elements of human society, or immediately arriving in God’s kingdom, well, that wouldn’t be a hard choice at all. I see immediately, because I take God’s view that death is merely an unconscious state similar to sleep. The intervening time between my death and my awakening, whether it be a day or thousand years, would be for me instantaneous. In this situation the only viewpoint that matters is my own. Instantaneous entry into God’s kingdom versus a lifetime in prison, let’s get this execution going quickly.
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Philippians 1:21-24 BSB)
We must look at everything that people point to in an effort to find fault with God – to accuse him of atrocities, genocide, and the death of the innocents – and view it with eyes of faith. Evolutionists and atheists scoff at this. To them the whole idea of human salvation is folly, because they cannot see with eyes of faith
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (1 Corinthians 1:20-25 NIV)
Some might still argue, but why kill the baby? Sure, God can resurrect a baby in the New World and the child will never know the difference. He will have lost out on living during the time of David, but will live instead in the time of the Greater David, Jesus Christ, in a world far better than ancient Israel could ever have been. I was born in the middle of the last century, and I don’t regret having missed out on the 18th century or the 17th century. As a matter fact, given what I know about those centuries, I’m quite happy that I was born when and where I was. Still, the question hangs: why did Jehovah God kill the child?
The answer to that is more profound than you might initially think. In fact, we have to go to the first book of the Bible to lay the foundation, not only to answer that question, but for all of the others relating to the acts of God with regard to humankind throughout the centuries. We will start with Genesis 3:15 and work our way forward. We’ll make that the subject for our next video in this series.
Thank you for viewing. Your ongoing support helps me continue to make these videos.
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Comment by James Mansoor on 2021-11-02 18:24:38
To sincerelyours and justwondering
I love your zeal and your passion for the truth… I am just wondering would it be possible if either of you can write a short article about the truth from God‘s Word the Bible, just as when you were giving talks… I am sure that Eric would not mined and the rest of us would love to feel and see how much you love Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus.
I have been baptised since the early 70s I am what they call PIMO… Physically and mentally out since 2015 and when I saw some members of the organisation live through the skin of their teeth in the Australian royal commission into child abuse.
One thing I have learnt is not to blame Jehovah or Jesus by the way this organisation is ruling people.
I am in my late 60s and I have seen a number of people who connected the organisation with the existence of God and his son and they spent the rest of their life to the time of their death denying the father and the son existed.
I have read some of Eric‘s posts when he discovered the truth from God‘s Word… Talk about being bitter about the men that have fooled him and the rest of us and continue to fool the 8 1/2 million people worldwide… incidentally with all the preaching work we have done, we have -.6% of membership to which we are not allowed to talk about.
My only regret is that I am married to a Christian woman who believes and worships the ground that the governing body walks on… So does every Jehovah’s Witness who is active believes in.
To give you an example of what I’m talking about I recently had a conversation with a highly respected elder in our congregation the subject was… Are we following men or do we follow what is written in the Bible? Much to my surprise he said he will wait for an article in the societies publications to clarify ANY subject that is Bible based.
Stay safe and warm Christian loveReply by James Mansoor on 2021-11-03 19:39:06
Justwondering
Just want to tell you that I have always enjoyed what you have written even though that some of them happen to be lengthy but nonetheless it makes a lot of sense.
I truly do enjoy brief precise to the point articles… scriptures that makes Jehovah’s Witnesses think without lengthy explanations to them as our Lord Jesus Christ would use the phrase (what do you think).
As an example of what I am saying… Does the holy spirit operates only on the governing body? As the Lord Jesus Christ would say what do you think? Did he not “say also you being wicked know how to give good gift to your children how much more with your father who is in the heavens give holy spirit to those asking him?”
I am sure Eric will latch on this one and he will try to use it because it is a humorous one and he loves Abbott and Costello, I hope he does the sketch is: Who’s on first, What’s on second, I don’t know who is on third.… Matthew 24:45 Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
Who is the faithful and discreet slave? Who… The slave class… Who… The one that has been appointed… Who… Why are you asking me? I am not asking you I am telling you.… You gotta watch this again and if you haven’t before you definitely will be and every time when you’re reading this scripture you will remember Abbott and Costello sketch.
Don’t give up in doing what is right you are reaping what you are sewing with your articles just because not many do comment because of their personal circumstances that doesn’t mean that they have not been used in a discussion with the witnesses.
Take care my brother and stay safe.
Reply by sincerelyours on 2021-11-05 05:34:29
Dear James Mansoor,
I know what I would write now. It would start like this:
Have you ever been gifted with your favorite desert? Mine was my mom's pineapple upside down cake.
Imagine being so excited for that cake. Cannot wait for that first bite! So you cut the cake and much to your dismay, you find on the inside there are worms. Live, crawling worms. And you just cannot believe your eyes! Because you see, my mom is the best baker in the world!! She can bake anything! She would never let this happen. How is this even possible?
And you leave shocked, disappointed, wondering what to trust, what to believe, how do you confront the baker and tell them without hurting their feelings, so many thoughts go through your head....is Mom losing it? Do I need to be concerned for her mental capacity/capability?
Granted, a cake is far far away from the mental and emotional anguish that describes becoming awoken to the abusive nature of something you once cherished.
My point is, the cake is a reality. How I respond or react to the cake? That's on me. It's my job now to choose how to react, make a plan, and figure out next steps.
The bottom line is I love my mom with all my heart, just as I love those in my congregation. They are fully indoctrinated and cannot see the worms. I can not hold them responsible for what they cannot even see.
No. This is my job.
Jehovah loves me....He knows how hard I've prayed to see and learn the truth. So he opened the door. Now it's my job to get past the worms, see it for what it is. And get busy and make a new cake.
Comment by louabbott on 2021-10-23 16:06:53
Excellent Brother Wilson!
I was wondering just yesterday when we would hear from you again.
Comment by Fani on 2021-10-25 03:53:05
Il est vrai que la permission du mal par Dieu est une question douloureuse et que nous trouvons, à notre niveau, le temps long.
Je ne doute pas que Dieu ait toutes les bonnes raisons pour avoir permis le mal. Je sais qu'il n'est absolument pas responsable. Les hommes peuvent faire autrement. C'est à leur portée de faire le bien.
Néanmoins nous ne sommes que des hommes et je pense que Dieu ne nous en voudra pas si nous restons dans l'incompréhension et la douleur devant la permission du mal. Notre cœur, notre sensibilité ne peuvent la comprendre et l'accepter véritablement.
"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ignore".
Jéhovah marque au front, selon Ezéchiel, "ceux qui soupirent et ceux qui gémissent" à cause des choses détestables commises : non respect du droit, affliction du petit, violence, perversion…Il comprend notre douleur, nos gémissements à ce sujet.
S'il est vrai que la résurrection est une réalité, que notre vie n'est qu'une brume, que nous sommes très loin de connaître tous les enjeux, en particulier sur ce qui s'est passé et se passe dans les cieux, il est difficile de consoler une maman qui voit son enfant torturé ou réduit en esclavage…Je ne pourrai rien lui dire sinon essayer de compatir.
Mais je sais que Dieu comprend notre révolte. Il ne nous en veut pas.
"Que sa volonté soit faite".
Merci Éric.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-10-25 07:10:13
Very clear, Eric. If we reject the resurrection, we reject the answer. Simple. Just as we cannot criticise someone for not doing a job the way we think it should be done, if they have a better long term solution.
Comment by Frankie on 2021-10-27 16:26:18
Dear Just Wondering,
we know exactly why the David's son died. Let's look at the verses 2 Samuel 12:14-15 in context.
„13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for a the Lord, the son born to you will die.” 15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill.” (2 Samuel 12:13-15, NIV).
Verse 14 speaks of cause and effect. The cause was David's sin - he allowed God's enemies to blaspheme. For this reason, and for no other reason, the child had to die - there is the word "because". The child's death was the effect of David's sin (IMO - perhaps for David to realize forever what he did). Furthermore, it is clear from verse 15 that Jehovah caused the illness and death of the child — “the Lord struck the child,” because verse 14 states that the child will surely die as a result of David's sin and because God said so.
So the baby's death was a punishment for the David's sin. Jehovah is our loving, but also righteous Heavenly Father. Here, God applied His principle, which He announced to Moses on Mount Sinai long before:
„ .... Yet he [Jehovah] does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:7b, NIV).
God followed his principle and passed on the sin of David to his descendant, and so the lineage of David was preserved up to Jesus Christ. God always has the right to do what He sees good, and we can only humbly bow before Him and accept His decision, as David did:
“Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped.“ (2 Samuel 12:20a, NIV).
We are not in a position to criticize any of God's actions from our mundane perspective because:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9, NIV).
Eric said: “David and Bathsheba also died much later, but they died. In fact, so that everyone of that generation, and for that matter every generation that followed up to the present one.”
David was well aware of this as well, because he said “But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.“ (2 Samuel 12:23, NIV).
And if Jehovah resurrects David's son in the God's Kingdom, then we will be able to say, "The end is good - everything is good."
Love to you JW. Frankie.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-10-28 03:14:55
To this we might add all those who lost their lives as punishment for David taking a census as recorded at 2 Samuel 24. Only the resurrection resolves what happened there, but there was indeed a lot of pain for the families who lost their loved ones.
Reply by Frankie on 2021-10-29 12:55:41
Yes dear Leonardo, because "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7, KJV). With respect to Isaiah 55:8-9 and 1 John 4:8. Agape, Frankie.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-10-28 11:54:00
You raise excellent questions. As I said at the end of the video, I'll be addressing this and other similar questions in the videos of this series.
Reply by ctron on 2021-11-03 00:19:26
Eric, this is such an important topic. I often wondered about the flood when everyone was killed including children. But just by reading this article alone it gave me a lot to think about. And I'm already seeing things a bit differently. I'm looking forward to your next article. Thank you.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-10-30 06:42:39
Your reasoning, JW,is excellent. I enjoyed reading that. I wonder if Paul thought of that when he said that all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for setting things straight. As you say, we do need explanations in order to set things straight, and they are not forthcoming on that occasion. There is clearly something that we do not know.
It all sounds a bit like the Government claim that "lessons will be learned", but exactly what lesson if the explanation is missing ?
Thanks again.
Comment by sincerelyours on 2021-11-02 06:33:16
Hi Folks, my name is Kari. I just recently left my congregation. My question is, if we are supposed to spread the good news, what is to prevent us from using the same means as the witnesses are currently using ie; letter writing and phone calls to our local communities. Is anyone doing this and if so, could you please take some time to talk with me about it. And if we as a whole are being recommended to not do this, may I have an understanding as to why we wouldn't. I have so far sent only a brief text to two of the elders in my congregation expressing my doubts toward the GB and why. For certain I would like to send them a pages-long letter citing several examples of watchtower dogma exposed for what it is. But perhaps that's not the thing to do either.
Forgive me for my ignorance as I am learning things as fast as I can and still wanting to take the time to find for myself if all I am now learning IS the truth. Almost 40 years of believing lies has taken its toll on my imagination. Doing a good job keeping my emotions out of it and asking Jehovah to continue to open doors is where I am currently.
Thank you in advance for whatever advise you have for me.Reply by Wytz on 2021-11-03 04:24:54
You may have noticed that the WT 'good news' is about the kingdom that has been ruling the world since 1914 from heaven and that is 'about to take full control of the whole earth' – this is not the good news of the Bible, because it tells us that the incoming kingdom that will soon take over world rulership is from Satan, when he gives the 666 beast 'authority over every nation.' Re 13:2,7
Further, the WT teaches that only God's kingdom can unite mankind under its rule, and that therefore when we experience this world unity it must be from Jehovah.
However, Revelation tells us that soon the whole world will be united in enthusiastic Devil worship – just who do Jehovah's Witnesses really work for? Re 13:3,4
They call themselves the truth, but play along with the covid and 'vaccine' lie; the mRNA shot is not a vaccine, it is experimental gene therapy, because the definition of a vaccine has now been changed from a drug that imparts immunity and stops the spread of disease – and the mRNA shots do neither – to a means for potentially lowering the severity of symptoms.
Our job as Christians is to speak the truth to whoever wants to hear it.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-11-03 13:16:49
I agree with Just Wondering. Wytz, will you reconsider your views and either correct them or remove them on your own?
Reply by rudytokarz on 2021-11-03 16:27:14
This is not the forum for 'vaccine talk'. By the way, our God-given immune system is imperfect based on Adam's sin thus we can't fight a novel virus.
Pretty simple actually....
Reply by James Mansoor on 2021-11-03 20:10:24
Wytz
All what I can say to you is follow Christ Jesus as the leader learn from his method of teaching, for example when he was shown a coin, and was asked to get involved in a political manoeuvre… What was his reply? Give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God.… He didn’t come to get involved in the political or commercial business of the world, he had a job to do and he asked us to remain in his teaching if we are truly his disciples.
2Timothy 2:4 No man serving as a soldier involves himself in the “commercial businesses of life”, in order that he may gain the approval of the one who enrolled him as a soldier.… If you believe you are a soldier of Christ then follow your leader.
Wytz if you have a Scriptural point to discuss please do share it and remember as Christ Jesus said whenever there are two or three gathered in my name that is where I will be… I would love to hear from you… Be safe my brother and take care
Warm Christian love
Reply by sincerelyours on 2021-11-05 06:29:52
I feel that your point on vaccines in nothing more than just an example of what they push as 'evidently true' because they say so (?) When actually they have no right to say anything at all. I get it.
When I asked should I be declaring good news, I was not referring to their good news. Just wondering gave me the advise to slow down and learn. Great advise. I have always felt responsible to Jesus and want to uphold my responsibilities. But learning right now is my responsibility.
I see nothing coercive or demeaning in your post personally. When I had one of the elders get in my face about vaccines I shut him down! I told him in no respect does he have the right to tell me to just follow along with the GB and going forward he can keep his opinion on such matters to himself. He didn't like that. Well, if you don't want my answers don't ask the questions as I'm not going to tell anyone what they want to hear. That was my last straw.
Reply by Frankie on 2021-11-09 18:28:17
Hi Wytz.
Your last but one paragraph is rather off topic. Nevertheless, see the Rome Declaration as of September 28, "Crimes Against Humanity". Frankie (frankiel@azet.sk).
Reply by Fani on 2021-11-03 04:54:14
J'ai eu le même désir. On a été éduqué ainsi : partager ce que l'on considérait comme la "vérité".
Avant d'être excommuniée, j'ai parlé avec 2 ou 3 frères de certains points. Ils ne m'ont rien dit personnellement mais sont allés se plaindre aux anciens ce qui m'a été reprochée par ces mêmes anciens.
Après mon excommunication, j'ai envoyé à tous les anciens de ma congrégation une longue lettre (17 pages) avec les points de divergences avec à l'appui tous les versets bibliques.
J'ai envoyé aux anciens et à quelques amis intimes durant plusieurs mois des messages sur leurs études en cours (criquets, vidéos choquantes : le plaisir de voir brûler l'allumette...etc) Au fur et à mesure, tous ces frères m'ont bloquée, le dernier et seul qui me lisait encore, m'a bloqué l'accès à son téléphone le mois dernier.
Tant pis. Je ne regrette pas de l'avoir fait. Je me dis que peut-être un jour ces graines germeront.
"Lance ton pain à la surface de l’eau car, avec le temps, tu le retrouveras." Ecclésiaste 11 : 1
Il faut comprendre que eux ont le droit de dénoncer ce qu'ils considèrent comme faux mais EUX NE COMPRENNENT PAS que tu puisses faire la même chose.
Tant que tu n'es pas excommunié, tu peux encore partager tes découvertes bibliques mais sache que tu ne pourras pas le faire longtemps…
(Oui, Just Asking donne un bon conseil : il faut aborder des sujets de base - pour ma part, je pense avoir abordé trop de sujets et je les ai sûrement noyés... c'est très difficile de contenir notre révolte).
Bon courage ! Fais selon ton cœur.
Et bienvenu !
Nicole (France)
Reply by rudytokarz on 2021-11-03 12:27:29
Kari,
As a third generation, ex-elder (11 years) and current PIMO trying to figure out the best way to 'fade', I believe that the JW indoctrination is so strongly entrenched in the minds of the great majority (I was previously in that majority) that even showing them all the scriptures that disprove most of the GB teachings will not do anything except have them call you out as an apostate.
Just watch/read the wording of the 'spiritual food' that they generate lately; it all comes down to what does the GB say. They have put themselves in the "seat of Moses" yet we should only have "the greater Moses", Jesus.
I have used just the scriptures (comparing John 10 with Ephesians 2) with a close friend to let him make his own conclusions and, although he could see my point, the response was "that is not how the F&DS understands it".
How hard should we push the obviously clear scriptures to people who cannot except that the GB could be mistaken? The exclusivity of their teachings show that they believe they're 'God's only spokesman on earth', regardless of what Geoffrey Jackson said during the ARC case.
I have decided not to say anything specific to any JW, not even my very PIMI wife as of yet, for those reasons.
RudyReply by rudytokarz on 2021-11-04 11:15:26
Yes it is, to me anyway, impossible NOT to see the truth of the 'other sheep' when one reads those chapters in context. The real issue is that it is near impossible to even bring up the possibility that the GB is wrong about anything especially these basic doctrinal matters without being accused of "lacking faith", "being spiritually weak", "listening to apostates lies" or "Do you think you know more that the GB?!?".
Although I am not sure about the exact meanings of the final 'location' (heaven/earth/combination) of the faithful followers of Jesus, we should be able to discuss the Scriptures to understand more on the subject without being accused of wrongdoing.
RudyReply by rudytokarz on 2021-11-04 13:23:06
The parallel account (parable not prophecy) found in Luke 12 makes the application clear when it is taken along in context to all the other similar parables regarding being a 'faithful slave'. The Minas, Talents, Virgins with lamps, Wheat and Weeds all have to do with how we ALL live up to our faith/baptism/spirit; ALL will be rewarded or punished based on the attitude and actions regarding what Jesus has given ALL of us.
The Scriptures do not show a narrow (only 8 men) application but a broader and more inclusive operation of spiritual responsibilities.
Rudy
Reply by sincerelyours on 2021-11-05 07:53:08
rudytokarz,
Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. I go through life never being afraid of man or beast for that matter. But what I'm getting here is that sometimes silence is more powerful. I would hate to be the one who stumbles a sister further simply because I felt the need to prove one thing. And that is Jesus' job to reconcile all matters anyway. I was always known as approachable. If any of them should want to know, I will speak my truth then. Thank you for helping me see this. Agape' Love to you brother.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-11-05 08:56:12
Hi Kari. Just Wondering has left some very good advice. To this I would recommend listing the main issues and thoroughly research them one at a time. There is enough on the Internet to help get at the truth, and there are only a limited number of subjects. Yes, it is quite a lot of work, but if you put it in writing on your computer you can keep coming back to it until you are not only convinced in what you have found, but you can recall a lot of it when needs arise. 1914, shunning are two of the most obvious topics. But you can start anywhere you feel is important.
Have fun, and may you be convinced whatever conclusions you reach.
Comment by Wytz on 2021-11-02 20:02:56
You have done a lot of honest thinking - here is a short answer:
Jehovah, because Almighty, absolutely carries full moral responsibility for all suffering and evil happening here on earth, and He owns it and has paid the full penalty for it with the life of the exact Representation of His very Being, which is why it is incumbent on us to accept Jesus as His reconciling apology, offered to us for the grief caused by His allowing evil into our world, and because it is our believing acceptance that is justifying Him.
Job 2:3c; Ro 8:20; La 3:33; Lu 22:31; Ex 21:29-31; Heb 9:16; Heb 1:3; 2Co 5:20;Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-11-02 20:14:14
I don't agree. The fault is ours. God had the option of never allowing us to live, or allowing us to live despite the suffering. I prefer the latter, because it gives us a chance at life and also the opportunity to sanctify God's name.
Reply by Wytz on 2021-11-02 23:48:45
Allowing creatures made in His image to experience and live out the consequences of their 'alternative' ethics seems helpful to all; it looks like there are two types of people in the world, those who believe God at His word, and those who need to see 'alternatives' demonstrated, even if it will cause suffering to them and those who believe.
Would it be righteous to subject those who have decided to believe God's word, to suffer the bad consequences of those who doubt His warning and want to go their own way?
Deliberate, willful obedience to a generous and loving God is the ideal reaction of intelligent creatures made in His image, but because Jehovah's [and ours] righteousness was challenged, He allowed unrighteousness to unfold and cause this untold suffering, not only to those who deserved it due to cause and effect, but also those of us who got dragged into this Devils bargain against our will, if we but had a chance to express it in advance.
I agree that God doesn't owe anyone his existence, but like with any human father, if one chooses to become such, there are strings attached ethically, and Jehovah seems to take His Fatherhood very serious indeed.
The question for us is: How can we ever trust a God who alienated us from the get-go and subjected us to this futility, not only to adversity coming at us from outside, but to the 'enemy within,' which we discover early in life when our inborn moral helplessness and sinfulness dawns on us? Ro 7:18-23; 8:20
Disbelief is our fault at the point of rejecting the reconciliation offered to us in Christ Jesus, and not before then.
Both our alienation and reconciliation issue from God; there is no glory or merit in accepting a gift, no matter how great it is.
Our personal suffering gains purpose as we see it as the price we pay for God's righteousness and our faith and integrity, but this is what each and everyone has to experience for themselves.
Interesting topic.
Comment by rusticshore on 2021-11-08 10:15:14
I believe the thoughts expressed by "Just Wondering" are perfectly valid, and have likely perplexed most Christians for centiries. However, I do challenge that anyone, despite their biblical experience and powerfully strong reasoning ability, legitimately and successfully explain the case involving the 70,000 killed. There are simply too many details absent the biblical text, to categorically and definively conclude something substantially final on the destruction of those 70,000 "innocent sheep."
The only thing I can state on this matter, as elementary as it may sound - is.... Jah does not know what it is like to be us... (If we have all the facts on this). Rudementary, I know! Sure.... He can create. I look to the heavens, or peer through the wide-angle lens of Hubble on documentaries, and I am in absolute awe of God's mightiness. It is unexplainable, and too magnificent to articulate. Just the simple yet delectable taste of just a strawberry can make one wonder... "How does He do this?" Yes....no one can create like Him. No doubt, His abilities are beyond compare, and far too magnificent to truly comprehend.
The only thing I can conclude as it pertains to specific things in the bible, such as the execution of so many for the act of one... means we either do not have the full picture (story), and/or He simply doesn't know what it's like to be us.....imperfect lowly humans, who can look at "what" dialogue we do have on that account - and being created in the "image" of God, reluctantly say.... "Inexcusable." Unless more evidence on the narrative is presented far in to the future, my sense of justice and most of all, my love for humankind says undeniably.... "inexcusable." And I will not alter my thinking unless more evidence is presented to change my opinion. And I wait to be corrected should we have further explanation down the road. Until then... inexcusable.Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-19 17:18:27
Oh my. Two upvotes for a comment telling God that what He did is "inexcusable"?
First of all, God does NOT have to know what if feels like to be a human to know right from wrong, good from evil.
Second of all; He simply doesn’t know what it’s like to be us…..imperfect lowly humans
You think so? I would have never thought about that! Ok, all sarcasm aside; of course God doesn't know what it feels like to be a lowly, imperfect human. He couldn't. That's literally impossible for Him. To be subjected to the limitations of a fleshly body, and subjected to imperfections(whether innate or sinful)? To be subject to the physical laws that govern the very universe He created, and to the matter, energy, and timestream that are a part of it? You're asking for the impossible my friend. But everything you're saying isn't even taking into account the fact that God DOES see the suffering we undergo. God sees everything. He doesn't need to feel it or experience it. He sees it, and He cares, because He is Love. You have to remember, God isn't obliged to do anything. He didn't have to give us His Son's words and his ransom. He didn't have to give us this wonderful Earth. He didn't have to give us life, and He doesn't have to resurrect us and make us rulers in the Kindgom of the Heavens. And yet He has. God hasn't left us completely helpless and in the dark, now, has He? Yes, there is plenty of suffering, but you have to realize that suffering isn't always bad; at least, not in God's eyes. Jesus certainly suffered to a great extent; and for US at that. What seems like bad or wrong to us might not be wrong in the eyes of God. And this brings me to my final point.
Maybe WE are the ones who have to adjust how we view the world, instead of God doing that. Maybe, instead of God changing what He views as good and bad to fit what we view as good or bad, it should be the other way around. That's what we should strive to do. Notice I said strive. Of course, no one CAN actually accomplish such a feat. We could never hope to grasp the mind of God. And yet, because of his Love for us, He has revealed Himself through His word, so that we may get a taste, to the extent that He revealed Himself(and to the extent that our incredibly limited minds can understand), of what His character and attributes are AND how we should try to imamate them and be fashioned by His image into the image-bearers that He intends for us to be.
Comment by rusticshore on 2021-11-08 18:45:25
This would be a fair explanation, one of which I had not previously considered, and the most probable, at least at this point. Still, some unknowns. David considered them, as discussed, "innocent sheep."
If the dialogue (explanation) you gave is correct, and again, appears certainly plausible - one must wonder "why" these ones were viewed as "innocent" by David... and considered as "sheep?" The explanation would appear to contradict both of those things. But thus far... it is the most appropriate explanation I have heard yet... never having delve deep into this particular account.
Much to consider.
Comment by rajeshsony on 2021-11-19 16:40:15
Your article asks, “Can We Blame God for Our Pain, Misery, and Suffering?” Of course we can. People do it all the time, and have done so for centuries. The real question is whether that blame is in any way justified. People who have faith in God and the Bible will usually say that since God is righteous and perfect, He can’t be blamed for anything. The Bible itself addresses this question in Job 40:2: “Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty? Let the reprover of God himself answer it.” The scriptural position on this is clear. Who is any mere, imperfect mortal to be questioning – much less blaming – God? Job himself answered this in chapter 42 and repentantly admits that he should have kept his mouth shut.
Well, I think this depends on what you mean by blaming someone for something.
Blame - assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.
The problem is; what seems like a fault or something wrong to us might not actually be in the eyes of God. Yes, you can rightly blame God, if you're going by your own standards, by definition. If you're going by the standards of God, however, then you can't. Incidentally, the standards of God are the ONLY standards, so I guess whether or not you can rightly justify blaming God depends on what you mean by rightly. Also, what you mean by standards. Is something a standard because it works or because someone says it is? Is a window that has been shattered into pieces still a "window"(albeit a broken one), or can you not even designate the title of "window" to it anymore? All the pieces are still there. Are distorted versions of God's standards still standards, or is what is defined as a standard is the fundamental standard that God is. I hope you get the point by now. We could play with semantics all day and never get anywhere; that's why I'm certain God does not play them. No human could ever hope to know the mind of God, agreed?
So, for whatever reason, David made a mistake. Why did 70,000 Israelites lose their lives because of David’s mistake? Here is where things get more difficult. Consider Ezekiel 18:20: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.”
If David sinned, but 70,000 other people paid for it, isn’t it a case of God not following His own rules at Ezekiel 18:20? It sure seems like it. Or, worse, is the “rule” in Ezekiel not really a rule at all? Which of God’s statements are we to take as “rules” and which are merely “off-hand remarks” that don’t always apply?
Ezekiel 18:20 is what we would call the gold-standard. It 100% is the gold standard. What is a gold standard?
Gold standard - the best, most reliable, or most prestigious thing of its type.
So yes, that is what Ezekiel 18:20 is. But you have to know something. Just because it is the gold standard, that does NOT mean that God isn't allowed to deviate from it, OR that is would be immoral for Him to do so. Of course, God wouldn't do such a thing unless He has good reasons for doing so; God ALWAYS has a reason for everything He does. Everything that ever happens goes according to His plan, God is always in control, and we need to remember that. God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. He knows Himself completely perfectly. See Isaiah 46:10
Now, what those reasons are, who can say? We might never know the reasons God has for doing a specific thing, and we'll certainty NEVER know the reasons why God does everything He does, and that's fine. Actually, not only is it fine, but it's great. We need to embrace that. God is infinitely greater than we are. We are mere humans. Just because we can't explain something, that doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Maybe we just have to learn to deal with our limited perspectives and finite experiences, and our inherent imperfections, and boundaries set by our own ignorances, and both realize and embrace that, not only are incredibly restricted by them, but we cannot overcome them. They are a part of being human. I personally think that cultivating the intellectual maturity to realize that some questions don't have the kind of answers that are designed to make us feel satisfied, is a good idea.
Also, one more very important thing to note: Just because something is wrong or immoral for us, that doesn't mean the same is true for God(e.g. It's immoral for imperfect humans to kill other imperfect humans, but it isn't immoral for God, a perfect being, to kill an imperfect being). I know right, what a huge shocker; who would have though? Ok, but seriously though, just want to get this point across for anyone else out there. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not hypocrisy or double standards of any sorts when the persons telling you that is infinitely greater than you are.
Double standard - a rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.
Unfair - not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
Double standards only apply to groups of equal status. And since God and humans aren't on par at all whatsoever, it's not a double standard. I'm sure you know this already, but I've seen a lot of people call out God for double standards before, believe it or not. So, I'm just mentioning this for any other people out there that see this thread, such as atheists and/or agnostics.
Comment by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 15:01:52
"But, that is consistent with the overall tone of Chronicles, which was written much later than Samuel and Kings were. The Chronicles have a more upbeat and positive view of Israel, since it was written around 460 BC for the benefit of the Jews that had come back from Babylonian exile."
This is exactly right, and this statement alone helps us to realize why there seems to be so many discrepancies between the account. Chronicles was written much later, AND the Jews had just come out of exile(so they probably weren't feeling the greatest). Actually, Chronicles was one of the last books of the TaNaK(Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim) written! It doesn't look that way in our Bible because our ordering is different than the ordering the Jews had for the scriptures(check out picture at bottom). Actually, their ordering makes a whole lot more sense, thought that isn't so surprising, is it?
"Now, we get to the part where David sees the angel striking “people” down and says, “these sheep, what have they done”. But is that account accurate? Were those “people” really just “sheep” – that is, innocent bystanders? Suppose this account is white-washing matters, and these 70,000 people were not mere civilians but soldiers – soldiers who David planned to use in a military campaign against God’s wishes. If that were the case, those 70,000 people might have died anyway because God’s blessing would not have been with the nation if it waged a war that God told them not to fight. If David had deployed them against the advice of Joab (and perhaps, against the advice of Gad and the high priest), he might have been sending them out to their deaths anyway.
It is notable that in Chronicles the angel is described as using a sword, even though at first the punishment was described as a “pestilence”. Why a sword? As Jesus put it, those who live by the sword would die by the sword. Did the angel wield a sword because those he was striking down were not civilians but soldiers? Soldiers destined to fight in a war God never wanted them to wage in the first place? What is more, suppose those soldiers knew the war they were going to be asked to fight was not approved by God. Wouldn’t they all be individually bloodguilty if they went along with David’s war plans willingly? We don’t know if they knew all this, but suppose they did know? Did the angel strike down those soldiers so that it would deprive David of enough fighting men to wage his unauthorized military campaign, and thus thwart his unsanctioned plans before they ever started?"
This is absolutely amazing, well done. As I've said before, God ALWAYS has a reason for everything He does. We might never learn what they are; we certainly didn't learn what they were for this, we just learned about a completely valid possibility. Not to mention, no one is truly innocent; at least, not in the eyes of God. Innocent from our point of view, such as that of David's, may not be innocent from God's point of view. A truly innocent person would be one that is perfect and does not sin. But not a single one of the people God killed were any of those things(the only human to be perfect and sinless to the end was Jesus, of course).
"If those 70,000 people were actually soldiers about to engage in bloodshed against other nations when God did not sanction it, God himself could be accused of turning a blind eye to what might have been unjustified mass murder on the part of Israel if He failed to act as He did."
There is an incredibly powerful lesson in here. God holds His own people(that includes Christians) accountable to higher standards than He does for other people.
Comment by wish4truth2 on 2022-01-11 16:36:20
I am really wondering these days whether the "post christian era" we live in today with atheism so rampant with evolution following can be described as a lawlessness or a great rebellion against God, because it is world wide,they do not want to admit responsibility to God and do not want to give up their wickedness, acting like they are gods themselves in charge of their destiny and rights under the delusion of believing the lie of atheism and evolution and their wicked deceptive works over the love of truth.. Thus fulfilling 2 Thess 2:3-4,9-12"for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness."