The Gentile Times Reconsidered Is Back in Print!

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-11-11 16:04:15

Hi Eric. thanks for the news. I read through the book as part of my waking up process, although, for family reasons, I am still PIMO, though not very PI now.. Indeed the information in that book was crucial. Karl Olaf Jonsson did a fantastic job.

The JW official line on Daniel 4 is that Nebuchadnezzar's tree represents Jerusalem cut down in 607 BCE, coming to life again in 1914. Of course the day for a year was never their teaching, but simply borrowed from the Adventists, who in turn picked the basic idea from those that went before.

There is nothing in Daniel 4 to indicate the validity of the parallel. Rather it was all about a lesson for King Nebuchadnezzar who had to see that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. This was what he discovered after what happened as recorded in verses 29 to 35, from which it seems he learned his lesson.

As to whether the detail is accurate, you make some fair points, Just wondering,. However the basics are enough to see the Watchtower fulfilment is just a made up story. And this is especially so when we wake up and carefully examine, Jeremiah 25, Haggai 2:3 along with Zechariah !;12 and 7:3-5. which I believe are enough to prove 607 BCE to not be the date of the fall of Jerusalem, if indeed that is an important event at all in Bible prophecy,

Thanks once again, Eric. By the way, do you know if there has been much added in this addition ?

Comment by James Mansoor on 2021-11-11 19:44:22

Well done Eric and Karl,

I have stumbled an elder or made him think by getting him to reason on the establishment of the messianic Kingdom without going into dates, here is what happened.

I asked the elder why wasn’t the Bible written in heaven by the angels and given to Man as a guidance? He said it was written for the benefit of mankind as we are imperfect.

I asked can you please tell me what is the purpose of the messianic Kingdom? His reply was to bring mankind to perfection and for the praise of Jehovah.

I asked him, can you please tell me what’s the point of driving a Ferrari in a sandy desert? His reply was it’ll be stupid to have a Ferrari in the sandy desert you would rather have a four-wheel-drive.

And then I asked him, what’s the point of having the messianic Kingdom established in heaven where you have heavenly perfection and everybody can freely communicate with Jehovah God and he praised night and day? It’s like having a Ferrari in a sandy desert… No use at all.

He was literally stunned, he was made to think for himself. I was cautioned not to air my views publicly.

Sometimes the simple things in life, are often the best.

Comment by rusticshore on 2021-11-12 18:16:27

Just ordered on Amazon. Looking fwd!

Comment by making sure on 2021-11-13 09:00:26

This is great news. I read “Crisis of Conscience “ during zoom meetings and this book will help me too. Many thanks.

Comment by Aleks Kristiani on 2021-11-15 05:27:34

Greetings to all the brothers and sisters from all over the world ..... I am new to this forum and am currently one of Jehovah's Witnesses ..... I would like to thank you all for your wonderful articles .... Meleti, Apollos, Alex Rover, Tadua, Eleasar, Elpida, James Penton, Anderestime .... as well as all of you with your constructive and encouraging comments .... Other sites with former Jehovah's Witnesses have switched to atheism and agnosticism ... I thought I was the only one in this world who knew the truth and kept it hidden but I found you too ..... I am happy and proud of you .... Jehovah bless you all. .........(John 15:12)

• Reply by Aleks Kristiani on 2021-11-18 05:15:15

  was just thinking ........... I would like to thank you for your hospitality and good advice ...... this forum has Christians who delve deeper into the Bible and in order to gather the pieces together and form the partial truth .... because none of us have the full truth ....... in the JW Kingdom Hall they have become lazy and for every topic use the application (JW Library) and do not are able to use the Bible ..... Jesus Christ says: I am with you all the days until the end of the system.....Matthew 28:20

• Reply by making sure on 2021-11-18 13:18:15

  Very heartwarming comment Aleks. I too am an active JW and retain my faith in God, his Son and the Bible. I found waking up to be an isolating experience thinking that I was alone. Beroean Pickets has really helped me to understand that this isn’t the case. I also appreciate learning how to study the Bible correctly as I feel it is vital to be properly nourished with words of truth as found in God’s Word.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-11-15 06:30:19

It is always disappointing to see negative votes with no comment. If you do not agree with what someone has said, what stops you explaining why, whoever you are ?

Comment by Fani on 2021-11-19 05:37:03

Je ne suis pas pour interdire les votes mais autoriser un vote négatif qu'à condition d'expliquer par un commentaire les raisons de ce vote négatif me paraît une très bonne idée.
Est-ce possible ?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-11-19 13:39:17

  To my knowledge, there is no comment plug in that supports that level of functionality. I could either turn off voting altogether or we could just develop thicker skins. :)
  
  I get downvoted all the time on YouTube. I realize that it is just the price we pay for being able to air our thoughts publicly.

  • Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-19 15:56:27

    Mhmmm. Enough said my brother.

  • Reply by Aleks Kristiani on 2021-11-19 16:01:09

    Meleti greet you with the inscription at Numbers 6: 24-26 ....... Continue on this path with the approval of Jehovah and Jesus Christ ...

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-11-20 09:03:13

      Thank you, Aleks.

  • Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 12:35:40

    Did you miss the part where he said, "or we could just develop thicker skins"?

  • Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 12:46:22

    "A down-vote is a number, not a thought."
    Wrong, it's both. The number represents the fact, just like the number 5 can represent 5 oranges. The number 5 isn't the oranges, but it represnets it. That's what numbers are literally for. A vote is shown as a number(+1 or -1), and it represents a thought(I agree with this comment OR I disagree with this comment).
    
    
    "YouTube allows separate Vote Up and Vote Down counts, while BP does not. So, a down-vote in YouTube cannot negate or conceal any up-votes.
    
    However, the voting process in BP results in “loss of information”. Thus, if a BP article gets 2 votes up and 3 votes down, the counter will say -1 and readers will think only one person voted by voting it down, when in fact 5 voters were involved."
    This is definitely true. But at least here you can see that someone has disliked a comment. In YouTube, you can't see that. Actually, you can't even see the amount of dislikes for a video on YouTube now!! I don't agree with that at all, not sure why they implemented that feature. So, it's not any better on YouTube my brother. It's not perfect anywhere you go. You can complain that the features(on WordPress OR YouTube) aren't perfect, which they certainty aren't, but that won't get anyone anywhere.
    
    
    "Unfortunately, your comparison of Beroean Pickets (WordPress) voting and YouTube voting is flawed.
    And because voters do not have to identify themselves, it’s anything but public – and that’s the whole problem."
    Actually, it's not flawed. It's not perfect, but no comparison ever is; if it was then the two things being compared would have to be the exactly identical, in which case the comparison isn't even a comparison, as you can't compare two thing that are the exact same. On both YouTube and WordPress you can't see exactly WHO likes or dislikes. At least here you can see that someone HAS disliked something. You can't see that on YouTube. Although, it's not any better overall, as you mentioned in your other paragraphs. Neither on YouTube nor WordPress is the voting feature perfect, or even close to optimal. They could use improvements, I 100% agree with you. But, unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that at the moment. So either we turn it off altogether, or we leave it as it is. I know you prefer the former, but I, as well as Eric, prefer the latter. Like he said; "or we could just develop thicker skins."

    • Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 13:03:55

      Sorry, I meant to write in respone to “A down-vote is a number, not a thought.”;
      Wrong, it's both. The number represents the fact, just like the number 5 can represent, say, a group of oranges. The number 5 isn't the group of oranges, but it represents it. That's what numbers are for. They're abstract entities used to represent concrete facts. A vote is revealed as a number(+1 or -1), i.e. an abstract entity, and it represents a fact, a real thought that someone really had(I agree with this comment OR I disagree with this comment). This is better worded than before.

• Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 12:55:59

  I do believe there is a difference in intent between positive and negative votes. A positive vote means that we agree or we are convinced that an argument or presentation was a sound one. That doesn’t really require much explanation. (Example: If two people are viewing a nice sunset, you don’t need to use many words – just enjoy the sunset.)
  
  However, a negative vote implies we view something as wrong. But, what? There are lots of people that might disagree with me, but if they don’t tell me why, how could I ever improve? I don’t know everything. I could be wrong. But if no one tells me why they think I’m wrong, how will I ever do things “right”? Just voting someone down doesn’t help, it only hurts people’s feelings, and it creates a hostile atmosphere on the forum. That does no one any good"
  
  I do somewhat agree with this. It's kind of complicated. Usually, the burden of proof is on someone when they are asserting that an argument someone made is invalid. Now, whether or not that is the same as simply disagreeing, I'm not sure. You can disagree with someone, even if you don't have proof. But if you assert that what the other person is saying is wrong, then you better have proof to back up that assertion. If you can't provide any, it reasonable to assume that you don't have any. Maybe that's the problem you see with the downvote option, correct? Maybe you view a downvote as an assertion that what someone has said is wrong, and that the fact they don't provide any valid arguments to support that assertion is wrong? I somewhat agree with this, but not 100%. I still believe people should be able to downvote if they want, whether or not they can reply showing why they disagree with you. Although, I do think it would be optimal if they had to reply in order to downvote, that way everyone knows the reason WHY someone downvoted. That sounds like a good idea. But, as Eric said, there's not feature for that currently, but that doesn't mean you should get rid of downvoting altogether. That's just my opinion though. It seems that the downvoting option is actually gone now, so I may be wrong. That's alright though. Have a good day my brother. :)

Comment by rajeshsony on 2021-11-19 17:24:56

Wow! Genius my brother! I never thought of any of these things before!! Thanks so much, this will be very helpful. I currently compiling a comprehensive list of the false doctrines that JW's teach, as well as all the problems with the GB and WT(such as UN association and covering up child sexual abuse). This just adds weight to all the other reasons why the 1914 doctrine is definitely wrong. Thanks my brother, have a good day! :)

• Reply by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 22:21:09

  "When we can answer all of that with a “yes”, we still don’t have “proof” of anything, one way or another, because the Bible itself is not proof. It is testimony. Now, even I will admit that the Bible is good testimony – even very good testimony. But we must accept that it is, in fact, testimony, and use it and reason on it accordingly. Now, some Christians may not like that idea, and may bristle at the notion of the Bible being called “testimony” instead of proof. I understand that."
  Bro, who doesn't know that? Ok, my bad, I'm sure there are people who don't.
  
  "For instance, Genesis 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. Is that “proof” that God did so? No. It’s testimony that He did so. I say that, even though I have the utmost respect for God and His word. Even so, it does not change that fact that Genesis 1:1 is testimony. That is the reality of the matter. We can only reach the truth if we face reality. A Christian might reply, “the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth, and that’s ‘proof’ enough for me”. But in saying that, they are misusing the word “proof”. What they really mean is, “I believe in and have faith in the truthfulness of the Bible, and thus if the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth, the testimony of the Bible is sufficient for me to accept the claim that God created the heavens and the earth”. And, when worded like that, it’s enough for me as well. But, it still isn’t “proof”. We must be clear and accurate in what we say, and how we say it."
  Yeah, of course. I think everyone should know all this. Believing in God requires faith as well, because there isn't any proof of His existence. Neither is there proof of His non-existence. Actually, believing with absolute certainty the proposition that God doesn't exist(i.e. what an atheist believes) is true requires orders of magnitude more faith than believing with absolute certainty the proposition that God DOES exist, due to the pragmatic impossibility of proving negative propositions, that is to say, disproving that which you, in practice, are unable to observe. But, no matter what side of the spectrum you are on, you are relying on faith. And it's good to keep that in mind.
  “I believe in and have faith in the truthfulness of the Bible, and thus if the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth, the testimony of the Bible is sufficient for me to accept the claim that God created the heavens and the earth”
  This is exactly how I word such things.
  
  
  "In reality, the WT concepts of a 2,520 year time span, the 607 BC fall of Jerusalem, the last days starting in 1914, and everything else associated with their elaborate invented theology, is a house of cards. Only, every single “fact” that WT cobbled together in that “house” is a bunch of “cards” based on lie after lie after lie. Not a single part of it is true.
  
  It’s not merely getting 607 BC wrong, or getting the “times” in Daniel wrong. All of it is wrong.
  
  It is not only not the truth, it isn’t even close to being the truth, and never was."
  Agreed. Devastating how millions fall for it, including my own family.

Comment by rajeshsony on 2021-11-20 14:27:15

I don't see what Romans 14:12 has to do with not allowing dislikes on the public forum of a JW reviewer website? Anyways, I don't really agree with the recent changes. It's worse than what YouTube has done. They went from showing how many dislikes a video had, to not showing how many dislikes a video has. But at least you CAN still dislike. You can't do any of that here anymore. But, I don't disagree with them either. I'm neutral on it. And, of course, I'm fine with it. Eric is the admin after all, so what he says goes. :)