Hello, the title of this video is “Jehovah’s Witnesses Say it is wrong to Worship Jesus, but Are Happy to Worship Men”. I’m sure that I’m going to get comments from disgruntled Jehovah’s Witnesses accusing me of misrepresenting them. They will claim they do not worship men; they will claim that they are the only ones on earth who worship the true God, Jehovah. Next, they will criticize me for suggesting that worshiping Jesus is a scripturally correct part of true worship. They might even quote Matthew 4:10 which shows Jesus telling the devil, “Go away, Satan! For it is written, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” New World Translation
Fine, I have made the accusation and I have done so publicly. So now I need to back it up with Scripture.
Let’s start by clearing away some potential misunderstandings. If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, what do you understand the word “worship” to mean? Think about that for a moment. You claim to worship Jehovah God, but how exactly do you do that? If someone were to come up to you on the street and ask, what do I have to do to worship God, how would you answer?
I have found that to be a very challenging question to ask, not only of a Jehovah’s Witness, but of any member of any other religious faith. Everybody thinks they know what it means to worship God, but when you ask them to explain it, to put it into words, there is often a long silence.
Of course, what you and I think worship to mean is irrelevant. What counts is what God means when he says that we must worship only him. The best way to find out what God thinks on the question of worship is to read His inspired word. Would it surprise you to learn that there are four Greek words that are translated “worship” in the Bible? Four words to translate the one English word. It seems like our English word, worship, is carrying a heavy load.
Now this is going to get a little technical, but I’m going to ask you to bear with me because the subject is not academic. If I am right in saying that Jehovah’s Witnesses are worshiping men, then we are talking about an action that could bring about the condemnation of God. In other words, we’re talking about a subject that is a matter of life and death. So, it deserves our fullest attention.
By the way, even though I’m focusing on Jehovah’s Witnesses, I think that by the end of this video you’ll come to see that they’re not the only religious people who are worshiping men. Let us begin:
The first Greek word used for “worship” that we are going to consider is Thréskeia.
Strong’s Concordance gives the short definition of this term as “ritual worship, religion”. The fuller definition it provides is: “(underlying sense: reverence or worship of the gods), worship as expressed in ritual acts, religion.” NAS Exhaustive Concordance simply defines it as “religion”. This Greek word Thréskeia occurs only four times in Scripture. The New American Standard Bible only renders it as “worship” once, and the other three times as “religion”. However, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, the Bible of Jehovah’s Witnesses, renders it as “worship” or “form of worship” in each instance. Here are the texts where it appears in the NWT:
“who were previously acquainted with me, if they would be willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship [thréskeia], I lived as a Pharisee.” (Acts 26:5)
“Let no man deprive you of the prize who takes delight in a false humility and a form of worship [thréskeia] of the angels, “taking his stand on” the things he has seen.” (Col 2:18)
“If any man thinks he is a worshipper [thréskos] of God but does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship [thréskeia] is futile. The form of worship [thréskeia] that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.” (James 1:26, 27)
By rendering thréskeia as “form of worship”, the Witnesses’ Bible conveys the idea of formalized or ritualistic worship; i.e., worship prescribed by following a set of rules and/or traditions. This is the form of worship or religion practiced in houses of worship, like Kingdom halls, temples, mosques, synagogues and traditional churches. It is noteworthy that each time this word is used in the Bible, it carries a strongly negative connotation. Therefore…
If you are a Catholic, your worship is thréskeia.
If you are a Protestant, your worship is thréskeia.
If you are a Seventh Day Adventist, your worship is thréskeia.
If you are a Mormon, your worship is thréskeia.
If you are a Jew, your worship is thréskeia.
If you are a Moslem, your worship is thréskeia.
and yes, most definitely,
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your worship is thréskeia.
Why does the Bible cast thréskeia in a negative light? Could it be because this is paint-by-numbers worship? Worship that obeys the rules of men rather than the guiding principles of our Lord the Christ? To illustrate, if you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and you go to all the meetings regularly and go out in field service weekly, putting in at least 10 hours a month in the preaching work, and if you donate your money to support the worldwide work, then you are “worshipping Jehovah God” in an acceptable manner, according to the rules of the Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society—thréskeia.
This is nonsense, of course. When James says that the thréskeia which is “clean and undefiled from God’s viewpoint is to take care of orphans and widows,” he’s being ironic. There is no ritualism involved in that. Just love. Essentially, he is saying mockingly, “Oh, you think your religion is acceptable to God, do you? If there were a religion that God accepts, it would be one that cares for the needy and doesn’t follow the way of the world.”
Thréskeia (adjective): Religion, ritualized and formal
So, we can say that thréskeia is the word of Formalized or Ritualized Worship, or to put it another way, Organized Religion. To me, organized religion is a tautology, like saying “evening sunset”, “frozen ice” or “tuna fish.” All religion is organized. The problem with religion is that it is always men who do the organizing, so you end up doing things the way men tell you to do then or else you’ll suffer some punishment.
The next Greek word we’ll look at is:
Sebó (verb): reverence and devotion
It appears ten times in the Christian Scriptures—once in Matthew, once in Mark, and the remaining eight times in the book of Acts. It is the second of four distinct Greek words which modern Bible translations render “worship”. According to Strong’s Concordance, sebó can be used for reverence, adoration, or worship. Here are some examples of its usage:
“It is in vain that they keep worshipping [sebó] me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”” (Matthew 15:9 NWT)
“One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper [sebó] of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.” (Acts 16:14 ESV)
“This man is persuading people to worship [sebó] God contrary to the law.” (Acts 18:13 ESV)
For your convenience, I’m providing all these references in the description field of the video you’re watching should you wish to paste them into a Bible search engine, like biblegateway.com so as to see how other translations render sebó. [References to sebó in Greek: Mt 15:9; Mark 7:7; Acts 13:43,50; 16:14; 17:4,17; 18:7,13; 29:27]
While sebó is a verb, it doesn’t really depict any action. In fact, in none of the ten occurrences of the use of sebó is it possible to deduce exactly how the individuals mentioned are engaging in sebó, in reverential worship or adoration of God. Remember, this term is not describing a ritualistic or formalistic process of worship. The definition from Strong’s does not indicate action either. To reverence God and to adore God both speak about a feeling or an attitude about God or towards God. I can sit in my living room and adore God without actually doing anything. Of course, it can be argued that true adoration of God, or of anyone for that matter, must eventually manifest itself in some form of action, but what form that action should take is not specified in any of these verses.
A number of Bible translations render sebó as “devout”. Again, that speaks of a mental disposition more than any specific action and this is an important distinction to keep it mind.
A person who is devout, who reveres God, whose love of God reaches the level of adoration, is a person who is recognizable as godly. His worship characterizes his life. He talks the talk and walks the walk. His fervent desire is to be like his God. So, everything he does in life is guided by the self-examining thought, “Would this please my God?”
In short, his worship isn’t about performing a ritual of any kind as prescribed by men in methodical worship. His worship is his very way of life.
Nevertheless, the capacity for self-delusion that is part of the fallen flesh requires us to be careful. In past centuries, when devout (sebó) Christians burned a fellow worshipper at the stake, they thought they were rendering sacred service or reverential service to God. Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses think they are worshipping God (sebó) when they shun a fellow believer because he or she speaks out against some transgression committed by the Governing Body, like their hypocritical 10-year affiliation with the United Nations Organization or their mishandling of thousands of child sexual abuse cases.
Likewise, it is possible to render sebó (reverent, adoring devotion or worship) to the wrong God. Jesus condemned the sebó of the scribes, Pharisees and priests, because they taught commands of men as coming from God. Jesus said, “They worship [sebó] me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.” Matthew (15:9 BSB) Thus, they misrepresented God and failed to imitate him. The God they were imitating was Satan and Jesus told them so:
”You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44, BSB)
Now we come to the third Greek word rendered “worship” in the Bible.
Thréskeia (adjective): Religion, ritualized and formal
Sebó (verb): reverence and devotion
Latreuó (verb): sacred service
Strong’s Concordance gives us:
Latreuó
Definition: to serve
Usage: I serve, especially God, perhaps simply: I worship.
Some translations will render it “worship”. For instance:
“But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship [latreuó] me in this place.’” (Acts 7:7 NIV)
“But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship [latreuó] of the sun, moon and stars. (Acts 7:42 NIV)
However, the New World translation prefers to render latreuó as “sacred service” which brings us back to Jesus’ encounter with the Devil that we discussed at the beginning of this video:
“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [latreuó].’” (Mt 4:10 NWT)
Jesus links worship of God with service to God.
But what about the first part of that rebuke when Jesus said, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship” (Matthew 4:10 NWT)?
That word isn’t Thréskeia, nor sebó, nor latreuó. This is the fourth Greek word translated as worship in English Bibles and it is the one upon which the title of this video is based. This is the worship that we should render to Jesus, and it is the worship that Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse to render. This is the worship that Witnesses render to men. Ironically, most other religions in Christendom while claiming to render this worship to Jesus also fail to do so and instead worship men. This word in Greek is proskuneó.
According to Strong’s Concordance:
Proskuneó means:
Definition: to do reverence to
Usage: I go down on my knees to do obeisance to, worship.
Proskuneó is a compound word.
HELPS Word-studies states that it comes from “prós, “towards” and kyneo, “to kiss“. It refers to the action of kissing the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready “to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one’s knees” (DNTT); to “do obeisance” (BAGD)”
Sometimes the New World Translation renders it as “worship” and sometimes as “obeisance”. This is really a distinction without a difference. For example, when Peter entered the home of Cornelius, the first Gentile Christian, we read: “As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance [proskuneó] to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.” (Acts 10:25, 26)
Most Bibles render this as “worshipped him”. For instance, the New American Standard Bible gives us: “As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.”
It is worthy of note for the serious Bible student that a very similar circumstance and wording occurs in Revelation where the apostle John says:
“At that I fell down before his feet to worship [proskuneó] him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship [proskuneó] God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”” (Revelation 19:10, NWT)
Here, the New World Translation uses “worship” instead of “do obeisance” for the same word, proskuneó. Why is Cornelius shown as doing obeisance, while John is shown as worshipping when the same Greek word is used in both places and the circumstances are virtually identical.
At Hebrews 1:6 we read in the New World Translation:
“But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”” (Hebrews 1:6)
Yet in virtually every other Bible translation we read that the angels worship him.
Why does the New World translation use “obeisance” instead of “worship” in these instances? As a former elder in the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I can state without any doubt that this is to create an artificial distinction based on religious bias. To Jehovah’s Witnesses, you can worship God, but you can’t worship Jesus. Perhaps they did this originally to counter the influence of trinitarianism. They have even gone so far as to demote Jesus to the status of an angel, albeit the archangel Michael. Now to be clear, I don’t believe in the Trinity. Nevertheless, worshipping Jesus, as we shall see, does not require us to accept that God is a Trinity.
Religious bias is a very powerful impediment to accurate Bible understanding, so before proceeding further, let us get a good grasp of what the word proskuneó really means.
You will remember the account of the windstorm when Jesus came to his disciples in their fishing boat walking on water, and Peter asked to do the same, but then began to doubt and sink. The account reads:
“Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and took hold of Peter. “You of little faith,” He said, “why did you doubt?” And when they had climbed back into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped Him (proskuneó,) saying, “Truly You are the Son of God!”” (Matthew 14:31-33 BSB)
Why does the New World Translation choose to render, proskuneó, in this account as “do obeisance” when in other places it renders it as worship? Why do almost all translations follow the Berean Study Bible in saying that the disciples worshipped Jesus in this instance? To answer that, we need to realize what the word proskuneó meant to Greek speakers in the ancient world.
Proskuneó literally means to “bow down and kiss the earth.” Given that, what image comes to your mind as you read this passage. Did the disciples just give the Lord a hearty thumbs up? “That was pretty nifty Lord, what you did back there, walking on water and calming the storm. Cool. Koodos to you!”
No! They were so overawed by this awesome display of power, seeing that the elements themselves were subject to Jesus—the storm abating, the water supporting him—that they fell to their knees and bowed before him. They kissed the ground, so to speak. This was an act of total submission. Proskuneó is a word that implies total submission. Total submission implies total obedience. Yet, when Cornelius did the same thing before Peter, the apostle told him not to do that. He was just a man like Cornelius. And when John bowed down to kiss the earth before the angel, the angel told him not to do that. Even though he was a righteous angel, he was just a fellow servant. He didn’t deserve John’s obedience. Yet, when the disciples bowed down and kissed the earth before Jesus, Jesus didn’t rebuke them and didn’t tell them not to do that. Hebrews 1:6 tells us that the angels will also bow down and kiss the earth before Jesus, and again, they do that correctly at the decree of God.
Now if I were to tell you to do something, would you obey me unquestioningly without reservation? You better not. Why not? Because I’m just a human like you. But what if an angel were to appear and tell you to do something? Would you obey the angel unconditionally and without question? Again, you had better not. Paul told the Galatians that even if “an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8 NWT)
Now ask yourself, when Jesus returns, will you willingly obey everything he tells you to do without question nor reservation? Do you see the difference?
When Jesus was resurrected, he told his disciples that “all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18 NWT)
Who gave him all authority? Our Heavenly Father, obviously. So, if Jesus tells us to do something, it is as if our Heavenly Father himself were telling us. There is no difference, right? But if a man tells you to do something claiming that God told him to tell you, that is different, then you would still have to check with God, wouldn’t you?
“If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.” (John 7:17, 18 NWT)
Jesus also tells us:
“Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5:19 NWT)
So, would you worship Jesus? Would you proskuneó Jesus? That is to say, would you give your full submission to him? Remember, proskuneó is the Greek word for worship that implies full submission. If Jesus appeared before you in this instant, what would you do? Slap him on the back and say, “Welcome back, Lord. Good to see you. What took you so long?” No! The first thing we must do is to fall to our knees, bow to the earth to show that we are willing to totally submit to him. That is what it means to truly worship Jesus. By worshiping Jesus, we worship Jehovah, the Father, because we are submitting to his arrangement. He has put the Son in charge and he told us, three times no less, “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.” (Matthew 17:5 NWT)
Remember when you were a child and were acting disobediently? Your parent would say, “You’re not listening to me. Listen to me!” And then they’d tell you to do something and you knew you had better do it.
Our Heavenly Father, the only true God has told us: “This is my Son…listen to him!”
We had better listen. We had better submit. We had better proskuneó, worship our Lord, Jesus.
This is where people get mixed up. They can’t resolve how it can be possible to worship both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. The Bible says you cannot serve two masters, so wouldn’t worshipping Jesus and Jehovah be like trying to serve two masters? Jesus told the Devil to only worship [proskuneó] God, so how could he accept worship himself. A Trinitarian will get around this by saying that it works because Jesus is God. Really? Then why doesn’t the Bible tell us to worship the holy spirit as well? No, there is a much simpler explanation. When God tells us not to worship any other gods except him, who decides what it means to worship God? The worshipper? No, God decides how he is to be worshipped. What the Father expects from us is total submission. Now, if I agree to totally submit to my Heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and he then tells me to totally submit to his Son, Jesus Christ, am I going to say, “Sorry, God. Can’t do that. I’m only going to submit to you?” Can we see how ridiculous such a stance would be? Jehovah is saying, “I want you to submit to me through my Son. To obey him is to obey me.”
And we are saying, “Sorry, Jehovah, I can only obey commands you give me directly. I accept no mediator between you and me.”
Remember that Jesus does nothing of his own initiative, so to obey Jesus is to obey the Father. That is why Jesus is called “the Word of God”. You may recall Hebrews 1:6 that we read twice so far. Where it says the Father will bring his first born and all the angels will worship him. So who is bringing who? The Father is bringing the son. Who is telling the angels to worship the Son? The Father. And there you have it.
People will still ask, “But then to whom do I pray?” First of all, prayer isn’t proskuneó. Prayer is where you get to talk to God. Now Jesus came to make it possible for you to call Jehovah your Father. Before him, that was not possible. Before him, we were orphans. Given that you are now an adopted child of God, why wouldn’t you want to talk to your father? “Abba, Father.” You want to talk to Jesus too. Okay, no one is stopping you. Why make it into an either/or thing?
Now that we’ve established what it means to worship God and Christ, let’s deal with the other part of the video title; the part where I said that Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually worshipping men. They think they are worshipping Jehovah God, but in fact, they are not. They are worshipping men. But let’s not restrict that to just Jehovah’s Witnesses. Most members of organized religion will claim to be worshipping Jesus, but are also, in fact, worshipping men.
Remember the man of God who was deceived by an old prophet in 1 Kings 13:18, 19? The old prophet lied to the man of God who came from Judah and who was told by God not to eat or drink with anyone and go home by another route. The false prophet said:
“At this he said to him: “I too am a prophet like you, and an angel told me by the word of Jehovah, ‘Have him come back with you to your house so that he may eat bread and drink water.’” (He deceived him.) So he went back with him to eat bread and drink water in his house.” (1 Kings 13:18, 19 NWT)
Jehovah God punished him for his disobedience. He obeyed or submitted to a man rather than to God. In that instance, he worshipped [proskuneó] a man because that is what the word means. He suffered the consequences.
Jehovah God doesn’t speak to us as he did to the prophet in 1 Kings. Instead, Jehovah speaks to us through the Bible. He speaks to us through his Son, Jesus, whose words and teachings are recorded in Scripture. We are like that “man of God” in 1 Kings. God tells us which path to follow. He does this through his word the Bible which we all have and can all read for ourselves.
So, if a man claims to be a prophet—be he a member of the Governing Body, or a TV evangelist, or the Pope in Rome—if that man tells us that God speaks to him and he then tells us to take a different path home, a path different than the one laid out by God in Scripture, then we must disobey that man. If we don’t , if we obey that man, we are worshipping him. We are bowing down and kissing the earth before him because we are submitting to him rather than submitting to Jehovah God. This is very dangerous.
Men lie. Men speak of their own originality, seeking their own glory, not the glory of God.
Sadly, my former associates in the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses are not obedient to this commandment. If you disagree, try a little experiment. Ask them if there was something in the Bible telling them to do one thing, but the Governing Body told them to do something else, which would they obey? You’ll be surprised at the answer.
An elder from another country who had served for over 20 years told me about an elders’ school he had attended where one of the instructors had come down from Brooklyn. This prominent man held up a Bible with a black cover and told the class, “If the Governing Body were to tell me that the cover of this Bible is blue, then it is blue.” I have had similar experiences myself.
I understand that it can be hard to comprehend some Bible passages and so the average Jehovah’s Witness will trust the men in charge, but there are some things that are not hard to understand. Something happened in 2012 that should have shocked all Jehovah’s Witnesses, because they claim to be in the truth and they claim to worship [proskuneó, submit to] Jehovah God.
It was in that year that the Governing Body presumptuously took upon itself the designation of the “faithful and discreet slave,” and demanded all Jehovah’s Witnesses to submit to their interpretation of Scripture. They have referred to themselves publicly as the “Guardians of Doctrine.” (Google it if you doubt me.) Who appointed them Guardians of Doctrine. Jesus said that he that “speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory…” (John 7:18, NWT)
Throughout the history of the Organization, the “anointed” were considered to be the faithful and discreet slave, but when, in 2012, the Governing Body took that mantle upon themselves, there was hardly a whisper of protest from the flock. Amazing!
Those men now claim to be God’s channel of communication. They audaciously claim to be substitutes for Christ as we see in their 2017 version of the NWT at 2 Cor 2: 20.
“Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.””
The word “substituting” does not occur in the original text. It has been inserted by the New World Translation committee.
As acting substitutes for Jesus Christ, they expect Jehovah’s Witnesses to obey them unconditionally. For example, listen to this excerpt from The Watchtower:
“When “the Assyrian” attacks…the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
(w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today)
They view themselves as a collective Moses. When anyone disagrees with them, they consider that person to be a modern-day Korah, who opposed Moses. But these men are not the modern equivalent to Moses. Jesus is the greater Moses and anyone who expects men to follow them instead of following Jesus is sitting in the seat of Moses.
Jehovah’s Witnesses now believe that these men of the Governing Body are the key to their salvation.
These men claim to be kings and priests whom Jesus has chosen and remind Jehovah’s Witnesses that they “should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed “brothers” still on earth. (w12 3/15 p. 20 par. 2)
But Jehovah God tells us:
“Put not your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.” (Psalm 146:3 BSB)
No man, no group of men, no Pope, no Cardinal, no Arch Bishop, no TV Evangelist, nor Governing Body serves as the cornerstone of our salvation. Only Jesus Christ fills that role.
“This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’ Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”” (Acts 4:11, 12)
Frankly, I’m shocked that my former Jehovah’s Witness friends have so easily slipped into the worship of men. I’m talking men and women whom I have known for decades. Mature and intelligent individuals. Yet, they are no different from the Corinthians that Paul rebuked when he wrote:
“For YOU gladly put up with the unreasonable persons, seeing YOU are reasonable. In fact, YOU put up with whoever enslaves YOU, whoever devours [what YOU have], whoever grabs [what YOU have], whoever exalts himself over [YOU], whoever strikes YOU in the face.” (2 Corinthians 11:19, 20, NWT)
Where did the sound reasoning of my former friends go?
Let me paraphrase Paul’s words to the Corinthians, speaking to my dear friends:
Why do you gladly put up with unreasonable people? Why do you put up with a Governing Body that enslaves you by demanding strict obedience to every dictate of theirs, telling you what holidays you can and cannot celebrate, what medical treatments you can and cannot accept, what entertainment you can and cannot listen to? Why do you put up with a Governing Body that devours what you have by selling your hard won kingdom hall property right out from under your feet? Why do you put up with a Governing Body that grabs what you have, by taking all the excess funds from your congregation account? Why do you adore men who exalt themselves over you? Why do you put up with men who strike you in the face, by demanding you turn your back on your own children who decide they no longer want to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Men who use the threat of disfellowshipping as a weapon to get you to bow down to them and submit.
The Governing Body claims to be the faithful and discreet slave, but what makes that slave faithful and discreet? The slave cannot be faithful if he teaches falsehoods. He cannot be discreet if he arrogantly proclaims himself to be faithful and discreet instead of waiting for his master to do so upon his return. From what you know of the historical and current actions of the Governing Body, do you think that Matthew 24:45-47 is an accurate description of them, the faithful and discreet slave, or would the next verses fit better?
“But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.” (Matthew 24:48-51 NWT)
The Governing Body is quick to label anyone who disagrees with them as a poisonous apostate. Like a magician who distracts you with a hand movement here, while his other hand is doing the trick, they say, “Watch out for opposers and apostates. Don’t even listen to them for fear they will seduce you with smooth words.”
But just who is doing the actual seducing? The Bible says:
“Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) NWT
Now if you think I’m targeting only Jehovah’s Witnesses, you are wrong. If you’re a Catholic, or Mormon, or an evangelist, or any other Christian faith, and you are content in the belief that you are worshiping Jesus, I ask you to take a hard look at your form of worship. Do you pray to Jesus? Do you praise Jesus? Do you preach Jesus? That is all well and good, but that’s not worship. Remember what the word means. To bow down and kiss the earth; in other words, to fully submit to Jesus. If your church tells you it’s okay to bow down before a statute and pray to that statute, that idol, do you obey your church? Because the Bible tells us to flee from idolatry in all its forms. That’s Jesus talking. Does your church tell you to get fully involved in politics? Because Jesus tells us to be no part of the world. Does your church tell you it’s okay to take up arms and kill fellow Christians who happen to be on the other side of the border? Because Jesus tells us to love our brothers and sisters and those living by the sword will die by the sword.
Worshiping Jesus, unconditional obedience to him, is hard, because it puts us at odds with the world, even the world that calls itself Christian.
The Bible tells us that there will soon come a time in which the crimes of the church will be judged by God. Just like he destroyed his former nation, Israel in the time of Christ, because of their apostasy, he will likewise destroy religion. I don’t say false religion because that would be a tautology. Religion is a formalized or ritualized form of worship imposed by men and therefore is by its nature false. And it’s different from worship. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman that neither in Jerusalem at the temple, nor on the mountain where the Samaritans worshipped would God accept worship. Instead, he was looking for individuals, not an organization, a place, a church, or any other ecclesiastical arrangement. He was looking for people who would worship him in spirit and truth.
That is why Jesus tells us through John in Revelation to get out of her my people if you do not want to share with her in her sins. (Revelation 18:4,5). Again, like ancient Jerusalem, religion will be destroyed by God for her sins. It’s best for us not to be inside of Babylon the Great when the time comes.
In conclusion, you will recall that proskuneó, worship, in Greek means to kiss the earth before the feet of someone. Will we kiss the earth before Jesus by fully and unconditionally submitting to him no matter the personal cost?
I will leave you with this final thought from Psalm 2:12.
“Kiss the son, that He may not become incensed And YOU may not perish [from] the way, For his anger flares up easily. Happy are all those taking refuge in him.” (Psalm 2:12)
Thank you for your time and your attention.
[Meleti Vivlon] This is where people get mixed up. They can’t resolve how it can be possible to worship both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. The Bible says you cannot serve two masters, so wouldn’t worshipping Jesus and Jehovah be like trying to serve two masters? Jesus told the Devil to only worship [proskuneó] God, so how could he accept worship himself. A Trinitarian will get around this by saying that it works because Jesus is God. Really? Then why doesn’t the Bible tell us to worship the holy spirit as well? No, there is a much simpler explanation. When God tells us not… Read more »
[Ralf] How can the Father reserve worship and glory for Himself alone, and then give it to another? Doesn’t that sound like the Father is contradicting Himself? [Eric] I explained the answer to that question in the preceding paragraph. If you can’t grasp it, I don’t know what else I can say to explain it to you so that you see there is no contradiction. As for the rest of what you wrote, thank you for sharing your opinions, but since there is no scriptural basis backing them up, I have nothing more to add, as I am loathe to… Read more »
I just didn’t take the time to get them all. So I will do that and get back to you. But it’s kinda like Thomas saying “my Lord and my God”. But I’ll show where my opinions have come from my reading of scripture. As for churches who are worshiping wrongly, none are going to be perfect. As for individuals worshiping perfectly, none are going to be perfect. That’s why we need a savior. A savior whose sacrifice on our behalf was of such value that it could pay for the sins of all humanity. A man who somehow managed… Read more »
I do appreciate these conversations. Thank you for your patience with me. [Meleti Vivlon] This is where people get mixed up. They can’t resolve how it can be possible to worship both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. The Bible says you cannot serve two masters, so wouldn’t worshipping Jesus and Jehovah be like trying to serve two masters? Jesus told the Devil to only worship [proskuneó] God, so how could he accept worship himself. A Trinitarian will get around this by saying that it works because Jesus is God. Really? Then why doesn’t the Bible tell us to worship… Read more »
Ralf, If Jehovah tells you to unconditionally obey Jesus, would you unconditionally obey Jesus?
Matthew 5:48. To the best of my ability. I am trying to do so every day. I fail, but repent as best I can and resume striving to obey.
How are you doing at it?
I was using “you” in a generic sense. It is none of my business how you choose personally to obey Jesus. I was only trying to establish a common ground from which to reason.
The point is that if Jehovah tells us to proskuneo Jesus–that is submit to Jesus–he is not violating his rule of sharing his glory with another god, because that rule was given within the context of rival gods which the Israelites were submitting to (worshipping). Would you agree with me on that understanding?
I can agree that the context of the revelation when given was in reaction to the people’s adultery of following other gods. It don’t see that changes the command to have no other gods, and that if Jesus is just a man, he would be just as subject to that command and could not accept worship.
I find Jesus to be divine in almost every chapter of every book of the bible, and I see him as fully human as well. Without that understanding, I find the bible to be contradictory.
Putting aside for the moment the account where Jesus accepted proskuneo while still a man, you haven’t acknowledged agreement, or disagreement, with my stated understanding that “if Jehovah tells us to proskuneo Jesus–that is submit to Jesus–he is not violating his rule of sharing his glory with another god”.
Jehovah didn’t want the Israelites worshipping other gods. Worship (proskuneo) represents being submissive to God, that is to obey his commands. Are you saying that if Jehovah decides that the way to submit to him (worship him) is to submit to his son, that he is violating his rule as you understand it?
We obviously see things very differently and draw different conclusion from the same Bible evidence. Since we have no common ground, further discussion will be fruitless.
Jehovah isn’t violating His requirement of worshiping Him only when He commands worship of Jesus, because the only reason He isn’t violating it is that Jesus is God just as Jehovah is. Different persons, and the same nature. We do have different understandings of scripture. You’ve pointed out in multiple places that the only way to understand the bible correctly is by the guiding of the Holy Spirit. One of has that guidance, and one of us doesn’t. And I can’t put aside even for a moment, the fact that Jesus accepted worship during His earthly ministry because all of… Read more »
“because the only reason He isn’t violating it is that Jesus is God just as Jehovah is. Different persons, and the same nature.”
But Jesus isn’t God, so your logic fails because it is based on a falsehood.
You cannot separate a person from his nature. Your reasoning is based on a fallacy. To say that God’s nature is God is like saying that Ralf’s nature is Ralf.
As you have said to me, I don’t really give any consideration to an opinion, unless you have scripture to prove it correct.
So you know and agree that an opinion not supported in Scripture is without value. Yet you state that Jesus is God though you provide no proof, which is understandable since there is no proof. Yet when I do the same you find fault. Seems a little hypocritical to me. So let’s do this. You are free to comment, but only bible facts, no personal opinions and certainly no false Babylonish teachings. Can we agree on that?
I agree that opinions without scriptural backing are not very helpful. We read the same bible, and you claim there is no proof of Jesus being God. I find scripture that indicates Jesus is God. I and centuries and centuries of people see Jesus is God based on scripture. How many people on the planet, excluding JWs who we know are unbiblical, agree with you concerning Jesus not being God? Of course, truth isn’t arrived at by democratic means. Yet, volumes of scholarly study would agree with me. So here is my scriptural backing that I’ve already shared several times.… Read more »
I thought that I had responded to this post, but I suspect that operator (me) error must have messed up and failed to get my response posted. Yes I agree that opinion is of little value if it can’t be backed up by scripture. I believe I have provided plenty of scriptural references to support my belief that Jesus is divine. So I’ll repeat my bible verses: Matthew 1:23 & Isaiah 7:14. Immanuel, God with us. John 1:1. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Colossians 2:9. The fullness of deity dwells in Jesus. Hebrews 1:8 & John… Read more »
Hi Ralf,
Do you accept that Isaiah 9:6 proves that Jesus is God?
eric
Hey Eric,
I believe Is 9:6 is describing and predicting the Messiah.
Ralf
Correct. How is it then that he, God the Son, is called “Everlasting Father”?
DZIĘKUJĘ, JAKOŚ UMKNĄŁ MI TEN 2012 ROK.. Tylko moja intuicja mi mówił, że coś jest nie tak.
Thank you very much, Eric, for this lecture. This is a wonderful work for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. You interpret 1 Kings 13: 18,19 wonderfully. JW’s Governing Body cannot worship Jesus because it is taking his place and awaiting glory for itself. As Jesus says, they have already received their wages, and apart from rebuke, they are not owed a thread. Many brothers with their roots in JW have difficulty worshiping our Lord. John 5: 22,23 is the key to balance in this matter. Our God the Father is not jealous of his only-begotten son. Jesus himself… Read more »
Hi ZbigniewJan „Our God the Father is not jealous of his only-begotten son“ – That is the truth. Otherwise, Jehovah would not give all his power in heaven and on earth to his Son (Matt. 28:18). Nowadays, Jesus is in charge of all God’s things in heaven and on Earth (1 Peter 3:22). He acts temporary (1 Cor 15:28) as God for all of us. His authority includes everything except Jehovah (1 Cor. 15:27). On my knees, how would I ask for my health, or for my faith, or for mercy for my enemies? (2 Cor 12:8; Luke 17:5; Acts… Read more »
Witaj Frankie!!!
Dziękuję za Twoją odpowiedź. Zawsze z uwagą czytam Twoje komentarze i czuję z Tobą jedność w Chrystusie. Mieszkamy na tej naszej planecie dosyć blisko siebie, mam nadzieję, że się spotkamy i uściskamy. Pragnę poznać Ciebie i Twoją chrześcijańską drogę do wolności Chrystusowej. Proszę napisz do mnie coś z Twojej historii. Napisz po słowacku, google pomoże mi przetłumaczyć. Mój mail:
z.piatek-zegarmistrz@wp.pl
Pozdrawiam serdecznie!!!!
Zbigniew
Rajeshsony, You are not my brother. You are a troll. Get away from me.
Hello, everyone. Please allow me to impart my sincerest apologies to everyone I’ve (most likely) offended due to the sarcastic, humorous, provoking, and irritable impression I’ve been giving off. That is entirely on me; no excuses. So I’m deeply, deeply sorry for that.
I’m sorry vitisbp.
I’m sorry Fani
I’m sorry Frankie
I’m sorry Bamba64
I’m sorry wish4truth2
I’m very sorry just wondering.
And I’m very sorry Aleks Kristiani
I’d appreciate it more than anything else if everyone could find it in their hearts to forgive me. If not, that is ok, I understand. Have a fantastic day, my brothers! ?
Personnellement tu ne m’as pas offensée, donc je ne vois pas ce que je dois te pardonner. J’ai juste partagé mon sentiment, mon impression en lisant tes nombreux commentaires et en particulier le dernier. Nous allons tous essayer de garder notre franchise tout en faisant attention à la sensibilité, parfois à la susceptibilité de chacun. Comme disait Paul ,: “supportez vous les uns les autres”. Colossiens 3 : 13 Ne faisons pas le jeu de Satan qui veut nous diviser. Préservons ce site. Nous en avons tellement besoin. Nous avons dû nous taire pendant si longtemps ! La parole est… Read more »
Ne faisons pas le jeu de Satan qui veut nous diviser.
Préservons ce site. Nous en avons tellement besoin. Nous avons dû nous taire pendant si longtemps ! La parole est un bien précieux, apprenons à la manier habilement (j’ai beaucoup de progrès à faire dans ce domaine).
I couldn’t agree more with you, my sister. 😀
Hi Eric,
Thank you for another good video.
In the text (and in the video) you made a mistake:). There must be a 2 Corinthians 5:20, you have 2:20.
Quote from the text:
“Those men now claim to be God’s channel of communication. They audaciously claim to be substitutes for Christ as we see in their 2017 version of the NWT at 2 Cor 2: 20.
“Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.””
Ahh! Thank you so much for this. 🙂
I
can anyone
Hello, fellow brothers and sisters. I just wanted to clear up the issue of praying to Jesus once and for all. This is over 12 hours of researching and writing, so I genuinely and sincerely hope someone, anyone, finds this helpful. 😀 We’ll start with the definition of prayer(as prayer is an ENGLISH word). Prayer : an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (Merriam-Webster) That’s the definition of “prayer.” Now, there is one stipulation that is necessitated for every prayer to be a prayer; that you do not see and cannot hear… Read more »
If you’re going to leave a dislike, please reply and tell me why so I can improve upon what I’ve written. I spent a lot of time on this, and I genuinely appreciate receiving constructive criticism. If you have any, please, please comment them.
Was it my weird as heck examples? Yes, they were weird, but they got the point across, right?
Hmmmm. I see. So, basically, this comment disturbs you because you know I’m right and have nothing to say in return. Dislike this comment for, “Yes, you are right.” Don’t dislike this comment and actually reply to me(for once) for, “No, you are wrong.”
Only time will tell…
Pour ma part je n’ai mis ni un + ni un -.
Je voulais juste dire que vous aviez déjà très largement commenté votre opinion.
Il arrive un moment, après avoir donné ses arguments, où il faut cesser de vouloir absolument que les personnes adoptent nos conclusions.
“Il y a un moment pour parler et un moment pour se taire.”
Vos arguments et références sont très intéressants et je pense que nous avons compris.
J’ai trouvé ce dernier développement fatigant car pour moi c’est une redite.
Fraternellement
Nicole
Il arrive un moment, après avoir donné ses arguments, où il faut cesser de vouloir absolument que les personnes adoptent nos conclusions. I’m not trying to get anyone to adopt my conclusions. I’m trying to get the people who dislike my conclusion to reply to me and tell me why exactly they dislike it. Trying to get a response from people is not the same as trying to force people to agree with me. Either way, I’m fine. If no one can reply and tell me why they dislike my arguments despite me inviting them to on several occasions, but… Read more »
Good morning from Australia, It is so nice to see 157 comments even though that some are off the subject, but by the same token it’s really great to see so many commenting. The other day I got called stupid from one of the people that I deal with since he believed in the Trinity. And it’s true what Eric said that we’re not here discussing the Trinity, this whole subject was about prayer and worship. And I’m very very happy that the subject about the alpha and the omega came up in this forum, let me explain….. My father… Read more »
To all, please understand that this comment section is for just that: comments. It is not a debating forum. If anyone wishes to debate, please use http://www.discussthetruth.com. There you can debate to your hearts content. Outside of sharpening your reasoning skills, it is, however, a waste of time. Trinitarians have many methods to promote this falsehood, and long, hard experience shows they will not let a little thing like reason get in their way. They use ambiguous proof texts like John 1:1 and John 20:28, but only allow for a single interpretation. They will coin words like the recent “monotheism”… Read more »
To all, please understand that this comment section is for just that: comments. It is not a debating forum. If anyone wishes to debate, please use http://www.discussthetruth.com. There you can debate to your hearts content. Outside of sharpening your reasoning skills, it is, however, a waste of time. Yes, you are absolutely right, brother. Sorry. And I’ll cease my debating. 🙂 At some point, we have to let them be and move on with the business of promoting the Good News, or is 2 John 7-11 only written to guard against gnostics? Mhhmmm, indeed. It’s meant to guard against anyone… Read more »
Good to have you with us, RajeshSony.
I agree.
Here’s the way I see it. Everything else is religion, just a snare and a racket.
1st. (Jos 24:15)
2nd. (Jhn 7:53)
3rd. (Jhn 8:1)
4th. (Jhn 8:2)
Psalmbee
Excellent polemic against the WTBTS as always, however, the theology has me baffled. Doesn’t your position make scripture contradict itself and affect the immutability Of God? Scripture has affirmed that we shall not worship the created only the uncreated which axiomatically is Yahovah, Yahovah has also said that there are no other gods (uncreated gods, or true Gods) beside Him, (Romans 1:25, Isaiah 45:5, Deut 6:13-14, Ex 23:13). Of course, if you mean that Jesus is not of creaturely status i.e. eternal; and thus must be by default Yahovah then I’m with you on that (Rev 1:8, Rev 1:17-18). If… Read more »
I explain how it is possible for Jesus to be eternal, while not being God Almighty in this video: https://beroeans.net/2021/03/26/trinity-part-3/ As for the statement that there are no other Gods beside Yehowah, that refers to there being no rival Gods. That context reveals he is not making a statement about existence, but about rivalry. To help you comprehend how he can say that there are no other Gods but himself when he himself states that there are other Gods, like Satan and the Word, we can look at these verses: “. . .There is no other God but me; A righteous God… Read more »
We’ve had this discussion before Eric, I don’t know why you would fetch this up as an argument (unless your memory is failing like mine). Obviously, there is no saviour of souls other than Yaveh, however, there are many saviours of human life.
Can you explain what you mean by begotten, and in the context of what scripture?
I will look at your video again but this argument could be simply settled by one question. Is Jesus of creature status (created) yes or no?
Is Jesus a creation by God? No… Well, that depends on what defintion of “create” you are operating under. (1) Create – to make something new, or invent something (Cambridge Dictionary) Create – to make or produce (something) (Merriam-Webster) (2) Create – to cause something to exist (Cambridge Dictionary) Create – to bring into existence (Merriam-Webster) NOTE: defintion of exist – to be, or to be real (Cambridge Dictionary) If you are operating under the first, Jesus is uncreated. The process of making something new implies a starting point(the start of the creation process) and an end point(when the creation process is finished, i.e. when… Read more »
This is the problem that I see, you ask a simple question and when you can’t answer it you go into micro analyse mode or obfuscation. How did the audience understand that Jesus is the first and last? Was there a “time” when Jesus didn’t exist and therefore came into existence, it’s not a difficult question, if he was created he is of creature status? It’s not hard to understand what created or not created means.
I’ve addressed that conundrum in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5_OqnnF6M
Bamba64, this video was not about the Trinity, so your questions are off topic and are obviously intended to provoke a polemic. I’m not interested in monitoring a site like that. If you wish, you can go to discussthetruth.com where they encourage such debates.
Apologies Eric.
While I do recognize that I’m off topic it does relate to whether we should communicate (pray) to any supernatural being and, I’m hardly the only one that is off-topic in that respect on this thread.
Nevertheless, I know it must take a fair amount of time for you to monitor this blog. I’ll try to keep on topic.
Many thanks for your time.
Mark
This is the problem that I see, you ask a simple question and when you can’t answer it you go into micro analyse mode or obfuscation. What?? I don’t understand you, my brother. It like you want a clear and cut answer, that can only be taken and understood one way, as though the infinite complexities of metaphysics ought to be enveloped within a few words for Mr. Bamba. I gave you a great answer, the most correct answer you are ever going to get. Was there a “time” when Jesus didn’t exist and therefore came into existence, No… that’s… Read more »
How did the audience understand that Jesus is the first and last? Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” This passage is undoubtedly about Jesus. The “first and the last” here is, I think, a reference to Jesus’ resurrection. There is a lot of evidence supporting that, because of the context surrounding the… Read more »
Someone has something to say about what I wrote? I’d love to hear. 🙂 Constructive criticism is always optimal. 😀
Is this explanation a little too anti-climactic for your tastes? It fits perfectly within the context, albeit a little dissatisfying compared to “first and last” being a testimony to the eternality of Jesus. But can anyone tell me why my explanation is wrong, per se? Or whether or not there is a better explanation out there(better, as in, fits within the context better. Not better in your mind or to your feelings)? Dissatisfaction, however distasteful, is not a valid reason in support of an argument being wrong.
Actually, there are other gods. The Hebrew word “elohim” is the word translated as God or gods in English. What is means is any being belonging to the spiritual realm; it’s a category title, the set of all spiritual beings(like how “mom” is a category title. One term for the set of all female human beings who have children. However, when I hear “mom”, I don’t think of every mom in the world. I think of one specific mom; MY mom… Such is the same with the term “god.”). And a proper subset of “elohim” is the One True God… Read more »
I think you may have misunderstood me, I tend to agree with you, and I believe that is exactly the distinction that Yahovah is making. They may be recognized as gods (elohim) by men, but they are not by nature God Gal 4:8.
🙂
Heh heh. A smiley face got two dislikes. That’s gotta tell you something. No words, no arguments, no assertions, not a single letter. Nothing but a simple, friendly smiley face, and 3 people disliked it(I remember it had 1 upvote, so for it to have 2 downvotes now, 3 people must have downvoted it). Somebodies really don’t like. I wonder who they are? ;P ^_^
Got his book “The Unseen Realm”
Good morning all, This is a very interesting topic the subject about prayer. I personally struggled with praying to Jesus the reason why is I could not differentiate between the father and the son, if everything I needed was in my prayer to Jesus then why do I need the father? For example if the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to interpret the Bible then why do I need the Holy Spirit? I speak to Jesus every day some might think I am praying to him but the actual fact is I am not praying to him. For example Jehovah… Read more »
For example Jehovah spoke to Abraham and Moses does that mean he was praying to them or was it just a form of conversation. Yes, and when Abraham talked to God, did not God respond in a voice that he could hear? When we pray to God, does He respond to us in a voice that we can hear? Some are equating conversation as a form of prayer. Well, conversation in and of itself is not prayer. Conversation with God/a god in heaven is, by defintion, prayer. That’s all prayer really is. Let me put it like this; all prayer… Read more »
Wondering what your thoughts are on who is the Almighty in Rev 1:8. I think there is a strong case for this to be Jesus.
The scripture in Revelation 1: 8 I think is in context with Revelation 4: 8 and belongs to Jehovah … I salute you
The beginning and the end (eternal one) is the Father here, the Father is coming quickly?
According to the biblical context Revelation 1: 8 relates to Revelation 1: 4 (who was, is, and is coming) …… Revelation 4: 8 ….. Isaiah 6: 3 ….. (i holy, holy, holy) we also have the term (Pantocrator) …. Revelation 11:17 ……. Revelation 15: 3 ….. Revelation 16: 3 …….. Revelation 16: 7 ……. Revelation 19: 6 …… Revelation 19:15 ………. I wish you health
Ok, sure, let me hear it. The case, I mean. 🙂 I haven’t really thought much about that scripture. But, it’s not like every time in Revelation someone is denoted as the “Alpha and the Omega” or as “God” it is or even can be Jesus. Revelation 21:5-7 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty… Read more »
Dislike? But all I did was ask to hear your own case… sorry for asking.
Again try to pray to Jesus and after awhile ask you yourself, how is your relationship with your heavenly Father Jehovah progressing? I don’t think it needs to be so black and white, don’t you? I talk to both my mom and my sister. Talking with my sister more often doesn’t mean I’m starting to love my mom any more less than I did before. In my opinion, prayer is more than just asking for things; much, MUCH more. The only thing I’ve prayed to Jesus for apropos a petition is that he be with me as I go through… Read more »
May I ask you a question, my brother? Is prayer only asking for things? Can it be nothing else but making a petition? Remember, prayer is just a means of communicating with God. So, is the only subject you want to communicate with God that you want something? Just answer that question, my brother. Have a wonderful day! 🙂
Let me ask you a question: Why do not you pray to Jesus: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified ……. According to Isaiah 9: 6 he is also our Father, do you think! .. Maybe Jesus of the Testament that the New is the Old Testament Jehovah? …. what do you think!
Huh?
have become brothers with 85% to Jehovah and 15% to Christ and my faith has been strengthened …….. It was very beautiful … The Bible does not forbid us for such a thing … We do not need Jehovah … we must worship Christ, we pray to Christ, we sanctify the name of Jesus, we are witnesses of Jesus, All the glory goes to Christ, everything we do for the sake of Christ, Jesus is our God, He is our creator, even Jehovah comes out of the equation, it’s so Simple ,,,, as you think brother! Have we not lost… Read more »
I’m tasting… sarcasm… Hmmm. You know, it’s pretty salty; I’m staggered.
Maybe Christ did things to get all the glory for himself and we did not understand brother!
No, while he was on Earth, everything he did was for the glory of the Father. It still is now. But by brining glory to the Father, he brought glory to HIMSELF, because God glorified the Son as a consequence of doing so.
Jehovah is still our Father. At the moment, Jesus is not. We do still need Jehovah; He is our Father.
!
Isaiah 9:6; “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Well, this certainly isn’t a scripture that helps anyone; not even trinitarians. Trinitarians believe that both the Father and the Son are God, but that the Father and the Son are not each other(I know, logically impossible, but we’ll give it to them). This scripture says that Jesus will be called “Eternal Father”, though, so that doesn’t even help… Read more »
In Genesis 17: 5 even Abraham is called the father of many nations …. should we not also pray to Abraham ,,, what do you think, brother? It is the same term as Isaiah 9: 6 …. The Bible does not tell us anything about prayer addressed to Abraham … How do you think we pray to Jehovah 90% and father Abraham 10% … I do not think there is a problem!
Did you not read what I wrote? Jesus is not our Father, but in the New World(New Heavens and New Earth), he will be.
Also, Abraham is dead. He is in Sheol, the grave, waiting to be resurrected by Jesus as part of the First Resurrection. He is not in heaven. Also, prayer can only be directed to God/a god(s). Even pagans pray, technically. They pray to pagan gods(the gods themselves, namely, their attributes and appearances, are not real, but behind the imaginary entity is a real demon(s); demons are always associated with divination, spiritism, and idol worship. And demons are gods). But since prayer is a form of worship, as Christians, the only gods we are allowed to pray to are the ones… Read more »
I have a question for you though. What is prayer, to you? How do you pray? What do you view prayer as, and what are the implications of prayer to you? You keep talking about prayer this, prayer that, prayer is a form of worship, etc. etc. But, you haven’t even told me WHAT prayer is to you… or what it looks like to you. And don’t give me another Greek word please. I understand the Greek perfectly fine. I want to know what you, my brother, understand prayer to be.
see prayer as a form of worship and communication with my Creator and the whole universe … and as a privilege to be given only to the Source of Life (Jehovah) because He deserves it … I accept Jesus as my mediator, the teacher, the king … even if I speak to Jesus or ask him something I ask only for the glory of the Father Jehovah. I obey Jesus (proskuneo) and serve him (latreuo) but I do not give him (sebo) my way of life and nor prayer (prosefho) …. I sing praise to both the Father and the… Read more »
see prayer as a form of worship and communication with my Creator and the whole universe Ok, so what exactly do you do in your communcation. So far, yoou’ve ruled out petitioning, calling, and talking. You say, we can talk to Jesus, and call on his name(like Stephen did), and petition to him(like Paul did), and talk to him(like all of them did and like John did), but none of those are prayers, right? That’s what you told me. So, then, what’s left to do? if you want to stay consistent with your logic, then if you call on God,… Read more »
Dear brother, I do not claim to be Jehovah’s channel, or that everyone knows the truth, nor do you know Greek fluently … but I do know a little Greek and the words that are used as a prayer are what the Greeks do on a daily basis. … when I talk to them, talk to them, yell at them, call them, address them, my friend … this does not mean that I am asking them … I realized that you have no knowledge of the Greek language since your arguments were presented …. I apologize if you feel offended… Read more »
All those words that the Greek people use in their lives as communication you classify as prayer
All those words that the Greek people use in their lives as communication you classify as prayer Wrong, I don’t. See, you still aren’t understanding me. They’re classified as prayer when, and ONLY when, they are directed at a deity. I explained this to you already. One verb can have many meanings depending on the context you use it in. I can “climb” on to my bed, and I can also “climb” mount Everest; same verb, two totally different situations. Can you understand this, my brother? This is simple logic. Neither situation is the same in magnitude/significance, nor is the… Read more »
I apologize if you feel offended anyway
No I’m not offended; absolutely not my brother! 😀
You still haven’t answered my question;
if you want to stay consistent with your logic, then if you call on God, that’s not a prayer. If you petition to God, that’s not a prayer, if you even talk so much as to God, that’s not a prayer. So, what exactly IS there left to do in a prayer?
You know, if anyone has any feedback and criticism at all regarding my view, I genuinely want to hear it. And here are some more scriptures you have to harmonize. Ephesians 1:21 “…far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” (ESV) Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there… Read more »
Keeping John 1:18 in mind who do you think was walking in the garden?
Jesus. I had already mentioned that. Eric agrees it was Jesus as well.
Why so many dislikes? Can no one reply and tell me why?
Not Yahovah?
No, Jesus. Jehovah has infinite power; to be put into a body that is restricted by the confines of space, time, matter, and energy, a body that can walk, is to be diminished greatly in power, which God cannot be.
You know, if anyone has any feedback and criticism at all regarding my view, I genuinely want to hear it. And here are some more scriptures you have to harmonize. Ephesians 1:21 “…far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” (ESV) Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there… Read more »
How did you come to the conclusion that Jesus being the “everlasting Father” doesn’t help Tri-unitarians?
Have you not studies the Trinity? Here’s a picture.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, but none are each other. Which is logically impossible. So, if the Father and Son are the same beings, that would hurt the Trinity. The Trinity says God and the Son are the same, but the Father and Son are not. That’s what the picture says, anyway.
Is this not a picture of the Trinity doctrine? I don’t understand??
I think you may have hit the nail squarely on the head, how can Jesus be the everlasting Father? I’ve heard two explanations, one from the unitarian Sabalian/modelist camp which explains God to change modes, one mode is the Father, another mode is the Son, and finally the mode of the Holy Spirit, there is not three persons but one person that put’s differing masks on. However this doesn’t work for me, this idea I think makes God into a deceptive being, when we read about Jesus baptism God the Father speaks to the Son and the Holy Spirit comes… Read more »
The key is found in 1 Corinthians “. . .So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45) Adam is the father of the human race, but in Adam, we are all dying. Jesus will become the last Adam for all who put faith in him under his kingdom rule. That means they will move over from death to life by become children of the last Adam and so he will become their everlasting Father. However, for the Children of God now whom Jesus calls his brothers, there is… Read more »
“Adam is the father of the human race, but in Adam, we are all dying. Jesus will become the last Adam for all who put faith in him under his kingdom rule. That means they will move over from death to life by become children of the last Adam and so he will become their everlasting Father. However, for the Children of God now whom Jesus calls his brothers, there is the opportunity be come adoptive children of the Father, God almighty.” Woah! How did you think of that, my brother? This is probably a much better explanation than mine… Read more »
I didn’t even make any assertions in this comment! All I did was compliment Eric’s explanation and proceed to ask a question…
[RS] “what do you think will happen to Jesus in the New World, and how do you reconcile the 3 scriptures I listed with 1 Corinthians 15:24-28?” I have pondered that as well. It is a huge question. Beware: much speculation here. If you grant me that, I would say that the entire story of humanity is quite remarkable. Here we are on one tiny planet orbiting a fairly ordinary star, rotating with about 100 billion other stars within a very common type of spiral galaxy, which is merely one of about 100 billion galaxies (and that’s just what we… Read more »
would say that the entire story of humanity is quite remarkable. Here we are on one tiny planet orbiting a fairly ordinary star, rotating with about 100 billion other stars within a very common type of spiral galaxy, which is merely one of about 100 billion galaxies (and that’s just what we can see) and the creator of it all sends his son to save us?! So true!!! Thank you. Are we the only material creation made in his image in all the universe? I don’t know. I guess you have to start somewhere, but then it seems presumptuous to… Read more »
I kind of agree with you, however, if Jesus is Yahveh then he would be the father of Israel. We are surely speaking of the Messiah’s character toward Israel and us that Isaiah has in mind. Concerning the language of “Everlasting Father,” couldn’t it also be a descriptive analogy pointing to Christ’s character He is fatherly, father-like, in his treatment of us.”
Why do you think the Spirit is a person? Let’s get one thing clear. When we say “person”, we mean “distinct conscious entity.” God is not a person like you and I, but He is a distinct conscious entity. So, is the Holy Spirit a distinct conscious entity(with thoughts, emotions, a character/personality like the God and Jesus)? If so, what proof do you have that this is the case?
The authors intent in Acts, in every way that language could describe a person using personal pronouns it’s used in regards to the Holy Spirit, plus He has a name.
What’s its name? Also, Greek doesn’t work the same way English words. Using personal pronouns to describe something in Greek doesn’t mean the author thinks it’s a person.
Comforter.
Have you ever heard of personification? Personification – the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form. Personification is very, very common in everyday life. “The wind is howling.” Does that mean the wind is a living thing which can howl? Here are some more examples. “That’s an angry sore you’ve got there on your foot.” “The stars danced in the midnight sky.” “That cake is calling to me; it’s telling me to eat it.” “The weather looks sad today.” “Death is like a thief in the… Read more »
However this doesn’t work for me, this idea I think makes God into a deceptive being, when we read about Jesus baptism God the Father speaks to the Son and the Holy Spirit comes down, surely the authors intent is to show that there is more than one person involved here. Exactly! I’m glad you agree, my brother. However, if Yahveh is a tri-personal (a Triunity) being; this would mean that Jesus is Yahveh, and although not the Father per se, He would have been the Father of Israel. Israel had not Father, though. God was their Adonai(Lord). God is… Read more »
You have deduced God’s unipersonality from the axiom of unipersonality, then as a unitarian, you attempt to deductively demonstrate that the doctrine of the trinity incoherently posits that the three divine persons of the Godhead are distinct while simultaneously implying that they are really one and the same person. You seem unable to conceive of another kind of individual personal being (namely, individual tri-personal being) which says nothing about whether or not God himself can be or is tri-personal. What can be known of God must be revealed by him in a manner that is accessible to the minds of… Read more »
By the way, logic is created by God, it is an immaterial, universal and invariant law that cannot exist without intelligence.
By the way, logic is created by God, it is an immaterial, universal and invariant law that cannot exist without intelligence. Logic is a law? It needs intelligence to exist? Hmmm, it seems as though you haven’t studied logic before. I’ll let that slide. Also, just to be clear, I’m not saying God cannot do the logically impossible, because He very well could. I’m just saying that if He COULD do the logically impossible, that would have serious implications(God could abolish free will altogether, without abolishing free will altogether. Satan would never have existed, nor the demons, nor would Adam… Read more »
continuing my comment from before… I got cut off; But if the Father and Son are the exact same beings, then there’s IS no Father and Son. There is only Father, or only Son. You cannot say that they are equal and not equal simultaneously. That is breaking another fundamental law of logic; Proposition A = B is true or proposition A ≠ B is true at any given moment in time, but both propositions are never true simultaneously. Therefore, there is no Father and Son. If there is no Father and Son, well, then, the entire Bible is a… Read more »
How about instead of disliking everything I comment and doing absolutely nothing else, you reply and rebut my arguments to show WHY my comment deserves a dislike? If someone had tried to disprove my beloved doctrine I certainly wouldn’t like it. Now, whether or not I can give a valid counterargument is another subject, don’t you think? What it comes down to is that, if God is able to manifest Himself in 3 persons simultaneously, none of which are the same as each other, He is doing the logically impossible; there’s no way around this. So, to believe in such… Read more »
Hello brother, how are you? I spoke sarcastically with my brother (Rajeshsony) and to see where his logical reasoning leads us …. whether we should pray to Jesus …….. He causes a lot of confusion by saying that Paul, and Stephen they prayed to Jesus …. when in fact at that time Jesus appeared and communicated with these apostles..they were supernatural manifestations and they spoke and cried out to Christ … but they did not pray to him … those words used in those Scriptures are used by the Greek people in daily life in communication with each other and… Read more »
those words used in those Scriptures are used by the Greek people in daily life in communication with each other and none of them has the meaning of (prayer) ,,,, however I suggest to the brother to take a course (Greek-English) for the meaning of the Bible words.
OH MY goodness… How many times… how many times… how many times… how many times… do I have to go over this? I’m not going over it again. Please, read my previous comments.
As for the term (Abba) used for Abraham, Jesus, Jehovah …. I think Abraham is called (Abba) of all believers ..believing alone and being separated from his relatives and family for worshiped Jehovah …… Jesus is called (Abba) because he is the last Adam …. and Jehovah is called (Abba) because he is the source of creation and Creator …….. Jrhovai does not command us to pray Jesus … but to obey and obey him and to serve him … since Jesus is our personal mediator to the Father we have entered into a personal relationship with him..because without Jesus… Read more »
Jrhovai does not command us to pray Jesus So, unless Jehovah commands us to do something, we cannot do it? Following your logic; Jehovah doesn’t command us to sleep on a bed, therefore we cannot sleep on a bed. Let’s take that one step further. Jehovah doesn’t commands us NOT sexually abuse children, therefore we have to sexually abuse children. Nice logic, right? you give my prayer to Jehovah 85% and Jesus 15% … would not be approved …… Ok then. Show me the scripture that condemns praying to Jesus. Go on… If you do not reply but dislike my… Read more »
Good morning, To answer your question the answer is no, you see my brother Jehovah and Jesus are not my waiter they are my family, just think of your family situation, if you have children do they love you for what they can get out of you? do they talk to you only when they need something? Moses walked with the true God as seeing the invisible one, can you imagine in your minds eye that you’re holding your heavenly father‘s hand and just going for a walk? I personally believe that you and I are coming to the subject… Read more »
To answer your question the answer is no, you see my brother Jehovah and Jesus are not my waiter they are my family, just think of your family situation, if you have children do they love you for what they can get out of you? do they talk to you only when they need something? Exactly! Thank you so much! 🙂 You are awesome brother. 😀 Moses walked with the true God as seeing the invisible one, can you imagine in your minds eye that you’re holding your heavenly father‘s hand and just going for a walk? I can actually.… Read more »
“For example if the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to interpret the Bible then why do I need the Holy Spirit?”
What a good point!
Thank you for sharing this reasoning with us, James. I concur.
So prayer is a form of worship that belongs only to Jehovah God just as his only-begotten Son did ……. Jesus Christ during his lifetime by his example … thank you
If talking to/making a petition is not prayer, then what exactly IS prayer? How do you pray to God, if not talking to Him and making petitions to Him? That’s what Paul and Stephen did with Jesus. Are you saying that when we talk to God we are not praying to Him? You say it is, “worship,” but how exactly do you worship God when you pray to Him? And what is the difference between doing so and talking/making a petition to Jesus?
The last words in the entire Bible, the inspired word of God, are a prayer to Jesus, not to God.
Revelation 22:20-21;
“He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
Notice it doesn’t say;
“He who testifies to these things says, “Surely my Son is coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, let your Son, Jesus Christ, come. The grace of our God and Father be with you all. In the name of your Son, Jesus Christ, Amen.”
Thanks for the comment brother …. I like it … you have made some valuable points to consider … what we understand when we pray … The book of Revelation closes with a promise from Jesus Christ that he will come soon also with the term (amen) which means (so be it) … With the term amen we express the belief and certainty that what has been said will happen … but this is not a prayer … We can use the term amen even in everyday life when we do not pray … Thank you for your attention
We can use the term amen even in everyday life when we do not pray
Yeah, I know that. I use the term in everyday life as well. But just because that is possible, that doesn’t mean that must be what is happening here. It’s clear John is talking TO Jesus.
“Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!”
Who is talking? John. Who is he referring to? Jesus. What does he say to finish his thought? Amen… This is a prayer. This is not “everyday life” talk. This is a prayer.
the case of the letters sent to the Hebrews the word worship is (proskuneo) = to bow down, obey with submission = worship …. We also render sacred service to Jesus as the apostle Paul (latreuo) but prayer is a form of worship = (prosefho) which belongs only to Jehovah … You can find a scripture in the Greek Scriptures where they pray (prosefho) Jesus..If you will confirm me from the Scriptures I agree brother … but I agree that we have a personal relationship with Jesus and communicate with him but the glory must go to our Father …… Read more »
but I agree that we have a personal relationship with Jesus and communicate with him but the glory must go to our Father
I couldn’t agree more. The Father has a glory that the Son does not; He has infinite power. I know that. I know Jesus is not equal to God in that aspect. But how does praying to Jesus necessitate that one must beleive that Jesus is equal to God in glory? It doesn’t. But I’m glad to hear you communicate with Jesus.
Interesting, but how do we explain…John 17:5 (NKJV)
John 17:5 (NET)
And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.
Is there a scripture reference that states that Jesus glory is different to the Fathers or is that just an assumption?
Not so fast. “With” doesn’t have to imply that you are sharing something with another person. With : used as a function word to indicate combination, accompaniment, presence, or addition (Merriam-Webster) “I had a smoothie with my girlfriend.” Does such a statement necessitate that me and my girlfriend shared one smoothie? Absoultely not; in fact, if I wanted to imply that, I could have just said, “I shared a smoothie with my girlfriend.” But, considering what I said, the meaning of my statement is more akin to, “I had a smoothie alongside my girlfriend.” Another statement; “I was with my… Read more »
Also, the context of John 17 makes it impossible that the glory Jesus had was the glory of God. John 17:20-23 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23… Read more »
The conversation between Jesus and John is an extraordinary situation, with visions where Jesus spoke directly to him … this is communication between them in an unusual situation … we do not have this privilege because Jesus does not appear as in the 1st century
The conversation between Jesus and John is an extraordinary situation, with visions where Jesus spoke directly to him … this is communication between them in an unusual situation … we do not have this privilege because Jesus does not appear as in the 1st century
I agree. But he was still praying to Jesus. John was not talking to Jesus directly. Jesus did not appear to John.
Revelation 1:1 “This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. ” (BSB) Whose revelation is this from? Jesus Christ’s, who received it from God. How did Jesus make it known? By sending HIS angel to HIS servant, John. Revelation 22:6 “Then the angel said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord, the God… Read more »
The Bible teaches me according to Psalm 65: 2 that I pray only to the Lord God … and according to John 14: 13-14 that I ask Jesus something, or call on him ….. but not to him … even this is to glorify the Father … for the angels we have no instructions in the Bible to pray or ask for anything … thank you
Once again, Jesus only prayed to God while he was on Earth because he was a human. And no one prayed to Jesus also because he was a human. Jesus did not have the power, authority, knowledge, status, etc. that he has at the current moment. He received it ALL when he ascended “above the highest heavens.” That is when people started to pray to him, that is, to call to him and petition to him and communicate with him while he was IN heaven. Stephen did it, Paul did it, John did it(once again. Jesus did not appear before… Read more »
All I’m saying is that, Jesus, when God is using him to be a direct representative of him, and Jesus being the perfect delegate of God, is, in essence, and for all intents and purposes, God Himself. It’s about our mindset. When Jesus, who can fulfill God’s will perfectly and represents him perfectly(see John 12:49, John 6:38, John 5:19, and John 4:34), is acting a delegate of God, it is absolutely reasonable to CALL him God. That is it. When John 1 said that the Word WAS God, it wasn’t saying the Word was equal to God in all aspects,… Read more »
Well put, Rajeshsony
You have to realize, my brother. When Jesus was on Earth, he was not God. He was a human being, capable of being hungry, getting drunk(he never did. But he did drink wine. I suspect that he drank wine because it tasted good and gave a good feeling, the same reason every other human who drinks wine, drinks it. Having perfect self-control, he never got drunk, but having a human body, was certainly capable of doing so), being tempted, being anxious and fearful, suffering and feeling weakness, and dying. God cannot do or be or feel any of these things,… Read more »
Here is what HELP word-studies says about “proseúxomai.” This was the main word for prayer in Greek. “4336 proseúxomai (from 4314 /prós, “towards, exchange” and 2172/euxomai, “to wish, pray”) – properly, to exchange wishes; pray – literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith (“divine persuasion“). Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis (“faith”) in the NT.” It’s a compound word. 4314 literally means, “in the direction, towards, in relation to.” And 2172 means literally “to wish for.” So, the word means, to wish for something towards someone… Read more »
This comment is for all Christians who pray to Jesus in particular …. In 2 Corinthians 12: 8 Paul prayed to Jesus 3 times and it is the Greek verb (parakals) = .. to call or to call … is a word widely used in everyday Greek life ….. Stephen prayed to Jesus is the Greek verb (epicalumenon) = to appeal or call to Acts 7:59 … while in verse 60 we have the verb (ekraksen) = to shout or shout loudly …… it is interesting that the verb (epicalumenon) also appears in 2 Corinthians 1:23 (epicalum) where Paul calls… Read more »
Parakals, epicalumenon, ekraksen; they’re all forms of prayer. Prayer : an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (Merriam-Webster) Did Stephen not address Jesus aloud? Did Paul not make a petition to Jesus(maybe both aloud and in his mind)? If it that wasn’t prayer, then why don’t you do the same thing with angels? Make a petition to them. Why not? After all, prayer is something that belongs only to God, as you said. And Jesus is not God. So, since Paul and Stephen did not pray to Jesus, according to you, then… Read more »
@rajeshsony
1 Corinthians 15:45, ESV: “Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
Jesus the life-giving spirit who through his death and resurrection gives us life, through our faith in his offer.
When our prayers are answered do we say: thank you?!
Love Maria ?
Unless, of course, the defintion IS right. Prayer IS an address or petition, any address or petition, to God. As I’ve said before, Jesus is God’s perfect representative. Everything we do to Jesus, we do to God Obeying Jesus means obeying God. God has put Jesus in charge of everything. Literally, everything. He will be doing all the judging, all the forgiving, all the resurrecting. He will carry out the Holy War of Armageddon. He has all authority over everything in existence, has ascended above the highest heavens, and is at the right hand of the Father, that is, an… Read more »
How do you explain 2 Corinthians 1:23 (epicalumeno) …. as a prayer?! …. The Greeks say in everyday life …. What time is it please ………… .. (parakalo) ……… is an expression and they use it in everyday life because I have known Greek closely
I wasn’t talking about 2 Corinthians 1:23. I was talking about 2 Corinthians 12:8. And, it’s not about what different ways a verb CAN be used. It’s about HOW the verb is used in the instance. I can say, “I climbed on top of my bed.” I can also use the same verb “climb” and say, “I climbed Mount Everest.” It’s the same word. But the two situations are drastically different. In 2 Corinthians 12:8, Paul was literally talking to Jesus, and making a petition to him. That is what we do to God, is it not! Are you saying… Read more »
Dear brother … I have never known an angel in my life and he has not appeared to me but if you would appear to me with pleasure I would talk to him..it would be something special
I certainly would too. But if an angel appeared and we talked to him, that would not be prayer. That would just be communicating with the angel. I know I said that prayer is just a form of communication, but what I really mean is that it is a form of communication to reach someone you cannot see or hear, someone who is in heaven(prayer can only ever be to someone in heaven, because GOD is only ever in heaven. That’s why no one prayed to Jesus when he was on Earth; they could just talk to him directly, in… Read more »
The end of the lecture..Jesus is a god created by Jehovah ….. The worship we do to him we do because the Father requires us …. Jesus did all things in his life for the glory of the God Jehovah and took the name after every name … Jehovah is the source of everything …. and in everything we do in our lives we do it for the glory of Jehovah …. therefore prayer (prosefho) = prayer of worship … is a a right that belongs only to him …. Nowhere in the Greek Scriptures do we find anyone giving… Read more »
Setting aside the use of the word “Prayer”, I would like to pose a question: Are we allowed to talk to Jesus? Are we allowed to ask Jesus for something?
Read these writings about Christ and answer me if we should speak or ask Christ for anything ….. (Revelation 3:20 …… John 6:37 ……. John 10: 27- 29 ……. 1 Peter 3:18 …….. Romans 5: 1 …… John 1:12 …… John 14: 6 ….. ..Colossians 1: 13-14 ….. Acts 10:43 ….. Ephesians 1: 7-8 ……. 1 John 4: 9-10 …. John 5:24 …… 1 John 5: 11-13 …. John 15: 7-11) ………… But prayer is to Jehovah alone …. Philippians 4: 6 -7 ….. And all that we ought to do, we ought to do for the glory of Jehovah… Read more »
My brother, none of these scriptures say that we can ONLY pray to God… and none of them say that praying to Jesus is wrong either.
Read these writings about Christ and answer me if we should speak or ask Christ for anything See, this is the first and foremost problem. You think I am arguing for the proposition that we should pray to Jesus. Not so, at all. I am arguing for the proposition that we can pray to Jesus. Big difference. Stephen could have prayed to his Father when he was dying, but he chose to pray to Jesus, no? I am not saying you ought to pray to Jesus, but that you can if you want to. Please, my brother, understand the difference.… Read more »
The Greeks use this as the key word for the prayer of worship … but I do not know if there are other words
Ok, what proof do you have that this is so?
Aleks, you haven’t answered my question. I can speak to you and ask you for things. I can speak to God and ask God for things. Why can’t I speak to Jesus and ask Jesus for things? I’m not talking about prayer, but speech.
Well, you are talking about prayer. Prayer is a form of speech. What you mean is you are not talking about “prosefho.” That is what is synonymous with “prayer” in brother Krisiani’s mind.
believe so … we can talk and have a personal relationship with Jesus but not to pray to him
Oh my goodness. If you talk to Jesus and make petitions to him, that is prayer.
We can talk and ask Jesus for something but not pray to him ….. Prayer is a form of worship that belongs only to Jehovah in the sense that I have so far … however I change my mind if I am given scripture … ..Even as far as the contradiction is concerned, I believe that the answer will be when the new scrolls are opened … thank you
We can talk and ask Jesus for something but not pray to him
Why does no one understand this… talking and asking someone who is in heaven IS prayer…
Prayer – an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought
That is the defintion of prayer.
Prayer is a form of worship that belongs only to Jehovah in the sense that I have so far
Ok then, point me to the scripture that says this…
The worship we do to him we do because the Father requires us 100%. I agree totally. Jesus did all things in his life for the glory of the God Jehovah and took the name after every name Exactly. And obeying Jesus and praying to him glorifies God. Well, at least I know obeying him(Jesus) does. God has commanded us to do something, that is, to obey His Son. To NOT do so would be the opposite of glorifying Him, it would be sheer disobedience. Jehovah is the source of everything …. and in everything we do in our lives… Read more »
Is it possible for humankind to speak, pray, ask anything of a being that isn’t omnipresent?
Wonderful commentary. And may I add… the Witnesses do not worship Jehovah, the Father. They worship the name, and are thus guilty of idolatry. May one be guilty of idolatry in such a case, that is, worshipping the actual “name” of God? Certainly, yes! For when one examines the historical component associated with the long legacy of unbiblical practices by the JW and their leadership… something God would never approve, we may conclude that they are worshipping the actual name of God, and not God Himself… as well as the men who force them to do so. “Name” in biblical… Read more »
Wow what a massive work. It is one I will need to read over slowly.Now,I was doing my nightly reading of the bible and came across this scripture, It fairly leapt off the page to me.
Deuteronomy 18:22“When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”
King James Version (KJV)
but.. “its just around the corner”
Thanks Eric. Really helpful to see the different words that are used for worship (and sacred service if you like). Not something I had thought about, but it will definitely help me in working out what is really involved in worship.
Many thanks for raising the subject. I wonder what made you even think about it ? But I am more than happy you did so. Real spiritual food.
Very interesting article Eric. I really appreciate you doing the research on the word worship and all the possible meanings in Greek. It should not surprise us as there is also four different Greek words for love. Something however on a separate note that I have pondered from time to time is that if our original parents had not sinned, how would we worship today? There appears that there were no directives in regards to how to worship God In the Garden of Eden other than what Jehovah mentioned to them in regards to having the animals in subjecting to… Read more »
3 words; “dress and keep.”
Check out this article to see what I mean: https://theexplanation.com/dress-keep-garden-of-eden-man-destined-to-be-a-gardener/
Someone disliked my comment. Might I ask why?
First of all please know that it wasn’t me. However having said that I’m wondering if it might not have something to do with what appears you overly commenting. So far out of the 21 comments here,14 are yours. None of us has everything figured out completely. We are still searching on certain things to complete the picture. The more you allow others to put in their input the more we will grow .I hope I haven’t offended you. That is not my intention. I can see you are a spiritual person and I love that in you. Your brother… Read more »
The more you allow others to put in their input the more we will grow
This is what I want more than anything else! Am I stopping anyone from doing so? If so, please forgive me.
I hope I haven’t offended you. That is not my intention.
Absolutely not!
Take care, my brother! ^_^ Have a wonderful day! :)))
Ok, let’s think of it this way. There are two main types of worship of God. (1) the kind that comes from adoration and reverence for someone. This is encapsulated by the word “Sebó” in Greek. (2) the kind that comes from total submission, that is, full obedience. This is encapsulated by the word “Latreuó” in Greek. Emulation(an effort to imitate another person’s qualities) is a form of worship that fulfills both kinds of worship. Think about it… (A) What makes you have adoration and total respect for someone in your mind? This is just anyone in general, even humans.… Read more »
That is a profound insight, Yobec. Thanks.
Bonjour à tous Dans cette histoire du Prophète de 1 rois 13 nous remarquons qu’en premier lieu le prophète avait bien respecté la loi de Dieu lorsqu’il s’est trouvé devant le roi Jéroboam. Ce fut facile car ce roi avait été manifestement rejeté par Jéhovah et le prophète le savait. Il refusa donc son invitation de rester et manger avec lui, comme le lui avait demandé Dieu. Le problème fut différent lorsqu’il s’est trouvé devant un prophète qui disait que Dieu parlait aussi par lui. C’était un vieux prophète ce qui laissait entendre qu’il avait plus d’expérience que lui, plus… Read more »
Wow! Un bon point, pourrais-je dire. Très perspicace. En effet, il est très facile de s’illusionner en pensant que nos paroles peuvent remplacer celles de Dieu. Il y a ceux qui trompent intentionnellement les autres, et il y a ceux qui trompent involontairement les autres parce que la racine du problème est leur propre illusion. Comme vous l’avez souligné, nous devons nous méfier des deux types de personnes. Peut-être plus important encore, nous devrions nous méfier de ne pas devenir l’un d’entre eux ! Merci pour cette remarque, sœur Fani. Passe une bonne journée!
My comment in English:
Wow! Quite a fine point, might I say. Very perceptive. Indeed, it is very easy to delude ourselves into thinking our words can be a substitute for God’s. There are those who intentionally deceive others, and there are those who unintentionally deceive others because the root problem is their own self-deception. As you pointed out, we must be wary of either kind of person. Perhaps more crucial, we should be wary that we don’t become one of them! Thank you for this point, sister Fani. Have a beautiful day!
Eric- spot on. I pray that our sincere brothers and sisters within the JW org are helped to see how the unquestionable allegiance demanded by a small group of men (GB) is in essence worship, and therefore an apostatizing from our true leader Jesus and our Father Jehovah.
Thank, Mike.
is interesting that according to the biblical context the apostle Paul gives (latreuo) to Jesus ……. Acts 27: 23-24: Tonight an angel of God appears to me to whom I belong and to whom I render sacred service
Yes, indeed. Here’s what HELP word studies says about the term “ággelos“; “32 ággelos – properly, a messenger or delegate – either human or heavenly (a celestial angel); someone sent (by God) to proclaim His message.” Basically, an angel is anyone sent by God. It’s merely a job description. It’s not a type of spiritual being, with a specific appearance and/or powers. If you are sent directly by God, you are an angel. So, technically, Jesus is an angel. What I mean by that is, Jesus can take on the job of being a messenger of God. Whether or not… Read more »
Thanks for your comment.Even at Genesis 48:16 … Patriarch Jacob calls Jehovah (angel) … maybe it’s figurative too..are we going a little off topic … Can we give Jesus latreuo besides proskuneo?
Patriarch Jacob calls Jehovah (angel) Yes, that is the Angel of the Lord, which I believe to be Jesus before he was transformed into a human. The Angel of the Lord had been called Jehovah and God on multiple occasions in the Hebrew Bible, and even acted like God, unlike any other angel(of which very few were named, and when they were it was never Jehovah). Jesus has been God’s primary messenger since the time of Abraham. And in the minds of many who spoke to the angel, this angel WAS Jehovah(that’s why they called him that). The messenger of… Read more »
Of all the things you have said, I have only liked the Scriptures in Revelation 22: 1-5 and it is a valid point …… I absolutely disagree with the other facts: 1-James addresses Jesus (the angel) and not to Jehovah ….. The angel in Eden and in the Hebrew Scriptures is always Jesus when the Bible does not specify ….. 2-We must pray to Jesus ….. 3-We can not give (Sebo) to Jesus. … but only to Jehovah as Jesus gave to his Father in the way of his life ….. Your explanations seem too much to me and your… Read more »
“James addresses Jesus (the angel) and not to Jehovah” James? What about James? The angel in Eden and in the Hebrew Scriptures is always Jesus when the Bible does not specify I 100% agree. That’s what I said. I’m just saying that they called the angel God as well. You provided a scripture that said that… Genesis 48:16. You literally said Jacob called God/Jehovah an angel, which he definitely did, I agree. This angel is Jesus, I totally agree. But, being a perfect representative of God, he is also God in a way… We must pray to Jesus I said… Read more »
Brother …. this is a deep topic that has nothing to do with the topic that brother Eric did …. I hope to once again give the relevant Scriptures on these topics ….. Brother …… …… Jesus gave Sebo with his way of life Father, Latreuo, Proskuneo ….. you prayed to the Father …… while you say that we pray to Jesus … we give Sebo with our way of life, latreuo, proskuneo … but we also give to Jehovah then Jesus is also our Father …… But the Bible says that Jehovah asks us to give proskuneo to Jesus,… Read more »
So, then, Stephen was sinning when he prayed to Jesus? I really don’t think so. My brother, you have to understand; the relationship we are supposed to have with God is not the same we are to have with Jesus. For example, say you call your mom on FaceTime. Would you say that, because you called your mom on FaceTime, if you were to call your sister on FaceTime as well, they(your mom and sister) would be the same? No, of course not. Similarly, prayer is just a form of communication. We pray to God as our Father; we communicate… Read more »
I absolutely disagree with the other facts
If you’re going to say you totally disagree with me and go ahead and give my comment a dislike, I hope you have some valid reasons for doing so. Might I inquire as to what they are?
I have only liked the Scriptures in Revelation 22: 1-5 and it is a valid point
Thank you very much my brother! 🙂
Did you know the name “Israel” literally means “he who wrestles with God,” or “fighter of God.” That’s why Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, because he “fought with God.” (Genesis 32:24) Of course, he fought with an angel. But, his name doesn’t mean “he who wrestles with an angel.” As you can see, the Angel of the Lord(Jesus) is synonymous with God(Jehovah). By wrestling the angel(Jesus), Jacob essentially wrestled with God, hence how he could justifiably change his name to Israel.
I agree with you that Jesus is the Angel of the Lord, He is not an angelic being but the Malachi, especially if we take into account Jn 1:18. He has all the attributes of Yaveh.
He has all the attributes of Yaveh.
Correction; he has all the conscious attributes of Yahweh.
What do you mean by that?
God has infinite power; Jesus does not. Well, if you accept the axiom that God has infinite power(i.e. cannot be subjected to anything that would in any way diminish His power), and know power is inversely proportional to diminishibility(the ability to be diminished in power), then a corollary is that God must have a nil level of diminishibility. And if that’s the case, He cannot be the exact same as Jesus, who was diminished greatly, even to the point of death. Thus, Jesus is lesser to God(who has an infinite amount of power) in terms of power, and likewise greater… Read more »
Revelation 22:1-5 “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve[latreuó] him. 4 They… Read more »
Since he is our lord now, our commander-in-chief, it would be hard to obey him without rendering his service. ?
WOW! Fantastic job on this video, my brother. This is one of the best videos I’ve seen in some time, I mean that. I can tell that you put a lot of work into this, and believe me when I say it payed off! Amazing job brother Eric!
P.S. I love your sense of humor(and how it manifests in the form of witty sarcasm)! 🙂
Thanks, Rajeshsony.