Each time I’ve released a video on the Trinity – this will be the fourth one – I get people commenting that I don’t really understand the Trinity doctrine. They are right. I don’t understand it. But here’s the thing: Each time someone has said that to me, I’ve asked them to explain it to me. If I truly don’t understand it, then lay it out for me, piece by piece. I’m a reasonably intelligent fellow, so I think that if it’s explained to me, I would be able to get it.
What response do I get from these Trinitarians? I get the same old tired proof texts that I’ve seen for decades. I don’t get anything new. And when I point out the incongruities in their reasoning and the textual inconsistencies between their proof texts and the rest of Scripture, I again get the derisive response: “You just don’t understand the Trinity.”
Here’s the thing: I don’t need to understand it. All I need is some real empirical proof that it exists. There are a lot of things I don’t understand, but that doesn’t mean I doubt their existence. For example, I don’t understand how radio waves work. Nobody does. Not really. Yet, every time I use my cell phone, I prove their existence.
I would argue the same about God. I see evidence about intelligent design in the creation around me (Romans 1:20). I see it in my own DNA. I am a computer programmer by profession. When I see computer program code, I know someone wrote it, because it represents information, and information comes from a mind. DNA is infinitely more complex code than anything I’ve ever written, or could write, for that matter. It contains information that instructs a single cell to multiply in a very precise way so as to produce a very chemically and structurally complicated human being. Information always originates from a mind, from an intelligent purposeful consciousness
If I were to land on Mars and find words carved into a rock reading, “Welcome to our world, Earthman.” I would know that there was intelligence at work, not random chance.
My point is that I don’t have to understand the nature of God to know that he exists. I can prove his existence from the evidence around me, but I can’t understand his nature from that evidence. While creation proves to me the existence of a god, it doesn’t prove that he is a three-in-one entity. For that I need evidence not found in nature. The only source for that type of evidence is the Bible. God reveals something of his nature through his inspired word.
Does God reveal himself as a Trinity? He gives us his name almost 7,000 times. One would expect him to also name his nature, yet the word Trinity, which comes from the Latin trinitas (triad) is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
Jehovah God, or Yahweh if you prefer, has chosen to reveal himself and he has done that in the pages of the Bible, but how does that revelation work? How does it come to us? Is it encoded in Scripture? Are aspects of his nature concealed in the holy writings, waiting for a few intelligent and privileged minds to decipher the hidden code? Or, has God simply chosen to tell it like it is?
If the Most High, the Creator of all things, has chosen to reveal himself to us, to reveal his very nature to us, then shouldn’t we all be on the same page? Shouldn’t we all have the same understanding?
No, we shouldn’t. Why do I say that? Because that is not what God wants. Jesus explains:
“At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.
All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.” (Matthew 11:25-27 BSB).
“Those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” According to this passage, the Son does not choose the wise and learned. When his disciples asked why he did that he told them in no uncertain terms:
“The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them… This is why I speak to them in parables.” (Matthew 13:11,13 BSB)
If someone thinks he is wise and learned, intelligent and scholarly, special and visionary, and that these gifts grant him the ability to decipher the deep things of God for the rest of us, even God’s true nature, then he is deceiving himself.
We don’t figure God out. God reveals himself, or rather, the Son of God, reveals the Father to us, but he doesn’t reveal God to everyone, just to the chosen ones. This is significant and we need to think about what quality our Father is looking for in the ones he chooses to be his adopted children. Is he seeking intellectual prowess? How about those who promote themselves as having special insights into God’s word, or proclaim themselves as God’s channel of communication? Paul tells us what God is looking for:
“And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28, BSB).
Love is the thread that weaves back and forth to unite all knowledge into a whole. Without it, we cannot get the spirit of God, and without that spirit, we cannot get to the truth. Our heavenly Father chooses us because he loves us and we love him.
“Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1 BSB)
“Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.” (John 14:9-11BSB)
How is it possible for God to communicate truth in such plain speech and simple writing which his adopted children can understand, yet which he hides from those who think themselves to be wise and intellectual? For certainly the wise or intellectual ones, by Jesus’ own admission in Matthew 11:25, can’t understand the meaning of unity or love between the Father, the Son, and the chosen ones through the holy spirit because the intellectual mind seeks complexity so that it can distinguish itself from ordinary folk. As John 17:21-26 says:
“I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” (John 17:21-26 BSB)
The oneness that Jesus has with God is based on the unity that comes from love. This is the same oneness with God and Christ that Christians experience. You will notice that the holy spirit is not included in this oneness. We are expected to love the Father, and we are expected to love the Son, and we are expected to love one another; and more than that, we want to love the Father, and we want to love the son, and we want to love our brothers and sisters. But where is the command to love the holy spirit? Surely, if it were the third person of a holy Trinity, such a command would be easy to find!
Jesus explains that it is the Spirit of truth that moves us:
“I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.” (John 16:12, 13)
Naturally, if you believe that the Trinity doctrine defines the nature of God, then you want to believe that the spirit guided you to that truth, right? Again, if we try to work out the deep things of God for ourselves based on our own ideas, then we will get it wrong every time. We need the spirit to guide us. Paul told us:
“But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 2:10,11 New Living Translation)
I don’t believe the Trinity doctrine defines God’s nature, nor his relationship with his Son, Jesus Christ. I also believe that the spirit guided me to that understanding. A Trinitarian will say the same thing about his understanding of God’s nature. We can’t both be right, can we? The same spirit did not guide us both to different conclusions. There is only one truth, though there can be many lies. Paul reminds the children of God:
“I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10 NIV)
Let’s explore Paul’s discussion of the unity of mind and thought a little bit more as it is an important scriptural theme and therefore essential to our salvation. Why do some people think that we can each worship God in our own way and with our own understanding, and in the end, we’ll all end up with the prize of eternal life?
Why is understanding God’s nature vital? Why does our understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son affect our chances at getting everlasting life as children of God in the resurrection of the righteous?
Jesus tells us: “Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” (John 17:3 BSB)
So, knowing God means life. And what about not knowing God? If the Trinity is a false teaching originating in pagan theology and forced down the throat of Christians on pain of death, as it was by the Roman emperor Theodosius after 381 CE, then those who accept it do not know God.
Paul tells us:
“After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 BSB)
Okay, okay. So, we can all agree that knowing God is crucial to pleasing him and gaining his approval which leads to eternal life. But if you believe in the Trinity and I don’t, doesn’t that really mean that one of us doesn’t know God? Is one of us in danger of losing out on the prize of eternal life with Jesus in the kingdom of the heavens? It would seem so.
Well, let’s review. We’ve established that we can’t figure God out by sheer intellect. In fact, he hides things from the intellectuals and reveals them to childlike ones as we saw at Matthew 11:25. God has adopted children and, like any loving father, he shares intimacies with his children that he doesn’t share with strangers. We’ve also established the way he reveals things to his children is through the holy spirit. That spirit guides us into all the truth. So, if we have the Spirit, we have the truth. If we don’t have the truth, then we don’t have the Spirit.
That brings us to what Jesus told the Samaritan woman:
“But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23, 24 BSB)
So, Jehovah God is looking for a particular type of individual, one who will worship him in spirit and in truth. We must therefore love truth and be guided by God’s spirit into all the truth that we earnestly seek. The key to gaining that knowledge, that truth, isn’t by our intellect. It is through love. If our heart is filled with love, the spirit can guide us right through. However, if we are motivated by pride, the spirit will be hindered, even blocked altogether.
“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:16-19 NIV)
What this represents is huge; it is no trivial matter. If the Trinity is true, then we must accept it if we are going to be among those worshipping the Father in Spirit and in truth and if we are going to be the ones he favors with eternal life. But if it is not true, we must reject it for the same reason. Our eternal lives hang in the balance.
What we’ve said before, bears repeating. If the Trinity is a revelation from God, then the only evidence of it is to be found in Scripture. If the spirit has guided men to the truth and that truth is that God is a Trinity, then all we need is childlike trust and humility to see God for what he truly is, three persons in one God. While our feeble human minds may not be able to grasp the manner in which this triune God can be, that is of little consequence. It would be sufficient that he reveals himself to be such a God, such a divine, three-in-one being. We do not need to understand how this works, but only that it is so.
Surely, those who have already been led by the Spirit of God to this truth can now explain it to us in a simple way, a way that little children can understand. So, before we look at the evidence in Scripture used to support the Trinity, let us first examine it as defined by those who would claim to have had it revealed to them by God’s holy spirit.
We will start with the ontological Trinity.
“Wait a minute,” you might say. Why are you putting an adjective like “ontological” in front the noun “Trinity”? If there is only one Trinity, why do you need to qualify it? Well, I wouldn’t, if there were only one trinity, but in fact there are many definitions. If you care to look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, you’ll find “‘rational reconstructions’ of the Trinity doctrine, which employ concepts from contemporary analytic metaphysics, logic, and epistemology” like “One-self Theories”, “Three-self Theories”, “Four-self, No-self, and Indeterminate Self Theories”, “Mysterianism”, and “Beyond Coherence”. All these things are guaranteed to bring the mind of the wise and intellectual endless delight. As for the childlike, ah, not so much. In any case, we won’t get muddled down by all these many theories. Let’s just stick to the two main theories: The ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity.
So again, we will start with the ontological Trinity.
“Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being. The “ontological Trinity” refers to the being or nature of each member of the Trinity. In nature, essence, and attributes, each Person of the Trinity is equal. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same divine nature and thus comprise an ontological Trinity. The teaching of the ontological Trinity says that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in power, glory, wisdom, etc.” (Source: gotquestions.org)
Of course, that creates a problem because there are so many places in the Bible where the “power, glory, [and] wisdom” of one member of the Trinity—the Son—is shown to be subordinate or inferior to the “power, glory, [and] wisdom”, of another member—the Father (not to mention that there is never any exhortation to worship the holy spirit).
In an attempt to solve that, we have the second definition: the economic Trinity.
“The economic Trinity is often discussed in conjunction with the “ontological Trinity,” a term that refers to the co-equal nature of the Persons of the Trinity. The term “economic Trinity” focuses on what God does; “ontological Trinity” focuses on who God is. Taken together, these two terms present the paradox of the Trinity: The Father, Son, and Spirit share one nature, but they are different Persons and have different roles. The Trinity is both united and distinct.” (Source: gotquestions.org)
All of this is presented as a paradox. The definition of a paradox is: A seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true. (Source: lexico.com)
The only way you can legitimately call the Trinity a paradox is if this “seemingly absurd” doctrine is proved to be true. If you cannot prove it to be true, then it isn’t a paradox, it’s just an absurd teaching. The only possible source for evidence to prove that the ontological/economic trinity is true, is the Bible. There is no other source.
How does CARM, the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry, prove the teaching is true?
(Just to warn you, this is pretty long, but we really have to read it all to get the full height, and breadth, and depth of this kind of Trinitarian thought. I’ve left the Scriptural references but removed the actual quotations in the interest of brevity, but you can access the full text by using a link which I’ll put in the description field of this video.
The Economic Trinity
As stated above, the Economic Trinity deals with how the three persons in the Godhead relate to each other and the world. Each has different roles within the Godhead and each has different roles in relationship to the world (some roles overlap). The Father-and-Son is an inter-trinitarian relationship since it is eternal (more on this below). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10), the Son came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of the Father (John 6:38). For a single verse that shows differences in roles, see 1 Pet. 1:2, “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood,” You can see that the Father foreknows. The Son became man and sacrificed himself. The Holy Spirit sanctifies the church. That is simple enough, but before we discuss this further, let’s look at some of the verses that support the difference of roles among the three persons of the Trinity.
The Father sent the Son. The Son did not send the Father (John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14)
Jesus came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of the Father. (John 6:38)
Jesus performed the redemptive work. The Father did not. (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24)
Jesus is the only-begotten. The Father is not. (John 3:16)
The Father gave the Son. The Son did not give the Father or the Holy Spirit. (John 3:16)
The Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not send the Father and the Son. (John 14:26; 15:26)
The Father has given the elect to the Son. Scripture does not say that the Father gave the elect to the Holy Spirit. (John 6:39)
The Father chose us before the foundation of the world. No indication that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us. (Eph. 1:4)
The Father predestined us to adoption according to the intention of his will. This is not said of the Son or the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1:5)
We have redemption through Jesus’ blood, not the blood of the Father or the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1:7)
Let’s summarize. We can see that the Father sent the Son (John 6:44; 8:18). The Son came down from heaven not to do his own will (John 6:38). The Father gave the Son (John 3:16), who is the only begotten (John 3:16), to perform the redemptive work (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24). The Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit. The Father, who chose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), predestined us (Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29), and gave the elect to the Son (John 6:39).
It was not the Son who sent the Father. The Father was not sent to do the will of the Son. The Son did not give the Father, nor was the Father called the only-begotten. The Father did not perform the redemptive work. The Holy Spirit did not send the Father and Son. It is not said that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us, predestined us, and gave us to the Father.
Furthermore, the Father calls Jesus the Son (John 9:35), not the other way around. Jesus is called the Son of Man (Matt. 24:27); the Father is not. Jesus is called the Son of God (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35); the Father is not called the Son of God. Jesus will sit on the right hand of God (Mark 14:62; Acts 7:56); the Father does not sit on the right hand of the Son. The Father appointed the Son as the heir of all things (Heb. 1:1), not the other way around. The Father has fixed the time of the restoring of the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:7), the Son didn’t. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to the Church (1 Cor. 12:8-11) and produces fruit (Gal. 5:22-23). These are not said of the Father and Son.
So, clearly, we see differences in function and roles. The Father sends, directs, and predestines. The Son does the will of the Father, becomes flesh, and accomplishes redemption. The Holy Spirit indwells and sanctifies the Church.
Now remember that the ontological trinity, which the economic Trinity supports, states that “all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in power, glory, wisdom, etc.” The et cetera represents everything else. So, reading all the above, where do we find equality in power, glory, wisdom, knowledge, authority, or anything else? If you read all those bible verses without any preconceived ideas, without anyone telling you in advance what they mean, would you believe God is revealing himself to you by holy spirit as a Trinity? As three distinct persons making up one being?
What conclusion does the writer of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry article draw from all this:
Without these distinctions, there can’t be any distinctions between the persons of the Trinity and if there are no distinctions, there is no Trinity.
Huh? I would look at all those distinctions to prove there isn’t a trinity, because they prove the three are not equal at all, but the writer of this article is turning all the evidence against there being a Trinity on its head and claiming that the evidence proves the Trinity after all.
Imagine if the police were to come to your door one night and say, “Your neighbor was found murdered. We found your gun at the scene with your fingerprints on it. We found your DNA under the victim’s fingernails. We have three Witnesses who saw you enter the house minutes before the gunshot was heard and who saw you running out afterwards. We have also found his blood on your clothes. Finally, before he died, he wrote your name in blood on the floor. All this evidence proves conclusively that you didn’t murder him. In fact, if it were not for this evidence, you would be our prime suspect.”
I know. That is an absurd scenario, yet that is essentially the scenario of this CARM article. We are expected to believe that all the Biblical evidence that disproves the Trinity, doesn’t disprove it at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Have these scholars lost their ability to think rationally, or do they just think the rest of us are fools. You know, sometimes there are no words…
It would appear that the purpose of the economic Trinity theory is to try to get around the mountain of scriptural evidence that demonstrates that the three members of the trinity are not equal to each other in any way. The economic trinity tries to shift the focus from the nature of the Father, Son and holy spirit to the roles each plays.
This is a cute trick. Let me show you how it works. I’m going to play a video for you. I have not been able to ascertain the source of this video, but it is evidently an excerpt from a debate between an atheist and a Christian Creationist. The atheist asks what he obviously believes is a gotcha question, but the Christian shuts him down quite effectively. His answer reveals some real insight into the nature of God. But that Christian is undoubtedly a Trinitarian. The irony is that his answer actually disproves the Trinity. Then, to conclude, he ironically engages in a nifty little piece of fallacious reasoning. Let’s listen:
Reinhold Schlieter: I’m confused. Being philosophically consistent and being very honest person, I’m sure you can tell me where God came from. And in addition, in addition, once you have told me where God comes from, please try to clarify how you can figure that a spiritual force can have an impact on a material universe to create it.
Dr. Kent Hovind: Alright, your question, “Where did God come from?” assumes that your thinking of the wrong—obviously, it displays—that your thinking of the wrong god. Because the God of the Bible is not affected by time, space, or matter. If He’s affected by time, space, or matter, he’s not God. Time, space and matter is what we call a continuum. All of them have to come into existence at the same instant. Because it there were matter, but no space, where would you put it? If there were matter and space, but no time, when would you put it? You cannot have time, space, or matter independently. They have to come into existence simultaneously. The Bible answers that in ten words: “In the beginning [there’s time], God created the heaven [there’s space], and the earth [there’s matter].
So you have time, space, matter created; a trinity of trinities there; you know time is past, present, future; space is height, length, width; matter is solid, liquid, gas. You have a trinity of trinities created instantaneously, and the God who created them has to be outside of them. If he’s limited by time, He’s not God.
The god who created this computer is not in the computer. He’s not running around in there changing the numbers on the screen, okay? The God who created this universe is outside of the universe. He’s above it, beyond it, in it, through it. He’s unaffected by it. So, for…and the concept that a spiritual force cannot have any effect on a material body…well then, I guess you’d have to explain to me things like emotions and love and hatred and envy and jealousy and rationality. I mean if your brain is just a random collection of chemicals that formed by chance over billions of years, how on earth can you trust your own reasoning processes and the thoughts that you think, okay?
So, ah…your question: “Where did God come from?” is assuming a limited god, and that’s your problem. The God that I worship is not limited by time, space, or matter. If I could fit the infinite God in my three-pound brain, He would not be worth worshipping, that’s for certain. So that’s the God that I worship. Thank you.
I agree that God is infinite and cannot be affected by the universe. On that point, I am in agreement with this fellow. But he fails to see the impact of his words on his own belief system. How can Jesus who is God according to Trinitarian theory be affected by the universe? God cannot be limited by time. God does not need to eat. God cannot be nailed to a cross. God cannot be killed. Yet, he will have us believe that Jesus is God.
So here you have a wonderful explanation of the infinite intelligence and power and nature of God that doesn’t fit with Trinitarian theory. But did you notice how he still tried to introduce the Trinity into his argument when he quoted Genesis 1:1? He refers to time, space and matter as a Trinity. In other words, all creation, the entire universe, is a Trinity. Then he subdivides each element of this universe into its own trinity. Time has past, present, and future; space has height, width, and depth; matter exists as a solid, liquid, or gas. A Trinity of Trinities, he called it.
You can’t just call something that exists in three states, like matter, a trinity. (Actually, matter can also exist as plasma, which is a fourth state, but let’s not confuse the issue further.) The point is that we are seeing a common technique here. The logical fallacy of false equivalence. By playing fast and loose with the meaning of the word, trinity, he is trying to get us to accept the concept on his terms. Once we do, he can then apply it to the real meaning he wants to convey.
Do I accept that Jehovah, Jesus, and the holy spirit all have different roles? Yes. There you have it, the economic Trinity. No, you don’t.
Do you agree that in a family you have a father, a mother and a child that all have different roles? Yes. Can you define them as a family? Yes. But that is not equivalent to the Trinity. Is the father the family? Is the mother, the family? Is the child, the family? No. But is the Father, God? Yes, says the Trinitarian. Is the Holy Spirit, God? Yes, again. Is the Son, God? Yes.
You see, the economic Trinity is just a way to try to take the evidence that disproves the ontological Trinity, and explain it away. But in reality, most of those who use the economic Trinity to explain away the evidence against the ontological Trinity still believe in the ontological definition of three distinct persons in one being, who are all equal in all things. This is a magician’s trick. One hand distracts you while the other hand performs the trick. Look here: In my left hand, I hold the economic trinity. Everything the Bible says about the different roles performed by the Father, Son, and holy spirit is true. Do you accept that? Yes. Let’s call it a Trinity, okay? Okay. Now in the right hand, “abracadabra,” we have the real trinity. But it’s still called the Trinity, right? And you accept the Trinity, right? Oh. Yeah. Okay, I get it.
Now to be fair, not everyone who is a Trinitarian accepts the ontological trinity. Many these days have developed their own definitions. But they still use the term, Trinity. That’s a very important fact. It’s the key to explain the compulsion people have to accept the Trinity.
For most people, the definition doesn’t really matter so much. It used to matter. In fact, there was a time that you’d be tied to a stake and burned alive if you didn’t agree with it. But nowadays, not so much. You can come up with your own definition and that’s okay. Just as long as you use the term, Trinity. It’s like the password to gain entry to an exclusive club.
The analogy I just used of a family actually fits with some definitions of the Trinity now in circulation.
If the only child in a family dies, it is no longer a family. All that remains is a couple. I asked a Trinitarian what happened when Jesus died for three days. His answer was that God was dead for those three days.
That is not the Trinity, but again, what matters is that the term itself is used. Why?
I have a theory, but before I explain it, I should state that with this series of videos, I’m not trying to convince Trinitarians that they are wrong. This argument has been going on for over 15 centuries, and I’m not going to win it. Jesus will win it when he comes. I’m trying to help those who are awakening from the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses not to fall prey to another false doctrine. I don’t want them jumping from the frying pan of false JW theology into the fire of mainstream Christian dogma.
I know the appeal to belong to some group of Christians can be very strong. Some will reason that if they have to bend a little, if they have to accept another false doctrine, it is a price that they are willing to pay. Peer pressure and the need to belong is what drove first century Christians, at least some of them, to try to get the Gentiles to get circumcised.
Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12 NIV)
I believe it is a valid argument to apply that to our current situation and re-read the verse thus:
Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to believe God is a Trinity. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12 NIV)
The need to belong to a group means that the person is still trapped by the indoctrination of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. “Where else will I go?” is the question most commonly asked by all who start to wake up to the falsehood and hypocrisy of JW.org. I know of one Jehovah’s Witness who is trying to get reinstated even though he knows about all the false teachings and the UN affiliation hypocrisy and the child sexual abuse coverups. His reasoning is that it is the best of all the false religions. His need to belong to a religion has clouded his mind to the fact that the chosen of God, the children of God, belong only to the Christ. We do not belong anymore to men.
So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. (1 Corinthians 3:21-23)
Of course, Trinitarians hearing this will claim they do have proof. They will claim that the proof for the Trinity exists throughout the Bible. They have many “proof texts”. From this point forward, I’ll be examining these proof texts one by one to see if they do indeed provide the scriptural evidence for the doctrine, or if it is all smoke and mirrors.
For now, we’ll end and I’d like to thank you for your kind attention and, again, express my appreciation for your support.
I am no scholar, just a guy who has been reading the bible for around 40 years. In this response, I will make mistakes. I have likely misunderstand some of what you are saying. I apologize. I want to be corrected where I am wrong. We are called to continually study and share God’s truth as we find it, just as you are attempting to do with Beroean Pickets. I’m a member of a church, attend bible studies, and have a number of resources and bible teachers/theologians that help me. I am curious to know if you have a… Read more »
Why do you think that I am “theologically, nearly still a Jehovah’s witness”? [Ralf] “To which churches or group are you hoping to direct them?” I believe that religion is a snare and a racket so I’m not directing people to any particular church. I want them to learn to worship God in spirit and truth free from the dogma of men. [Ralf] “The answer is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent by Jesus and the Father to guide us into all truth”. That is true, but it can hardly be used as an argument to prove the point… Read more »
I think you are still largely holding to Watchtower theology because you appear to agree with them by denying Jesus is divine, believing we earn God’s favor by what we do (love), and denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I note that you are going to do a video further describing your understanding of the Spirit. I look forward to that. I don’t know that “person” is a good description for the members of the Trinity anyway. I think people down the ages had nothing better to use. If the only church/religious organization you have ever been a member… Read more »
Interesting. I have found that virtually every doctrine unique to JWs is false. The rejection of the Trinity is not unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses, so just because someone doesn’t accept it is hardly a valid reason to paint them with the JW theology brush. Incidentally, I don’t deny that Jesus is divine. I just reject your definition of divine which makes him into god almighty. But he is a god. Ralf, as to your belief concerning what I believe about religion and what I am doing to worship God, you seem to get your exercise by jumping to conclusions. You… Read more »
I apologize if I assumed too much. Like I said in my original response to your post, I know I’ll misunderstand or misinterpret some of what you say. I’m just going with what your words seem to me to be saying. Continue to correct me. But isn’t it consistent with JW belief that Jesus is A God and not God Almighty? So that would be an agreement. I knew rejecting the Trinity isn’t unique. Arians were doing to long ago. Elijah and Elisah were acting in the same office as the early church apostles. God performed miracles through them in… Read more »
I have not abandoned all the beliefs that JWs have. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. However, believing some of the things they believe does not make me theologically bound to JW doctrine anymore than my beliefs that are consistent with Baptist or Catholic teachings bind me to those faiths. Regarding Elijah and Elisha resurrecting the dead, I was using that to counter your argument: “If God is Triune, why wouldn’t different divine acts be done by different persons? And still, Jesus throughout the Book of John points out that He is doing divine work only… Read more »
By the way, when Jesus died and for three days and nights lay in the grave, did God die?
Yes, but I think our differences here are like our differences on Jesus’ divinity. Differing understandings on “divine”, and perhaps differing understanding of “death”. Do you hold to death being non-existence (the JW understanding), only to resume life with resurrection? Because I believe when I die, I continue alive in spirit. The prospect of transitioning seamless from this life of struggle into the presence of Jesus in heaven is what takes the sting out of death. But death is un-natural and a result of sin, and still a sad and evil event as Jesus’ tears outside of Lazarus’ tomb indicate.… Read more »
You don’t need to believe that you continue “alive in spirit” to have the sting removed from death. Since the dead know nothing, the time between one’s death and one’s resurrection will be instantaneous from one’s own point of view, though thousands of years may have passed.
Jesus was fully human, not a god. He gave up his divinity according to Philippians 2:5,6
The Tetragrammaton, YHWH, represents the four-letter name of God which appears close to 7000 times in the original manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures. The translation made of that Hebrew name varies. The most common two translations are Yahweh and Jehovah in English. But these are translations or transliterations as the case may be, not the actual name as originally spelled and pronounced in Hebrew.
If you come to our meetings on Sunday you will meet other people in the UK that you can associate with. The meeting times and the Zoom links are available at this link: https://beroeans.net/events/
Eric, Just wondering, Frankie, You have been a good source of encouragement for me… Keep up the good work. Eric, You said you will NOT bring back the upvotes and downvotes and this site was jw.org reviewer ONLY … Is your “light getting brighter and brighter?” Eric, Satan has demanded to have you sifted, but when you return, encourage your “family”. Know the reason why you were disfellowshipped and why you setup this website to help the witnesses to wake up. If your dear wife was still alive, what would she have said to you? Just wondering, I got hooked… Read more »
James Mansoor, your comment here is one of the most controlling and manipulative posts I’ve seen in a long time, you are plucking all the “harp strings” available to you to try to steer this ship into a direction to please you! You feel free to speak for Jehovah and Satan? Seriously??? This site is to do Jehovah’s work WHAT EVER THAT MAY BE!! Not a platform for any man to become a leader and exercise his personal authority or to be controlled and manipulated into doing someone else’s bidding! Do your really understand the “Babel” or its implications at… Read more »
Thank you for your rebuke of James and for your sound reasoning, BobPfohl.
I know it really bothers you to have downvotes, but we discussed it a number of times and I’ve decided that the pluses outweigh the negatives.
I understand you don’t like to be down voted when the down voter doesn’t provide a reason, and I understand that can be very galling. I get many down votes on my YouTube channel without ever getting a reason. But they serve a purpose. They allow us to gauge the overall reaction of what we say. We have to be secure enough in our position to handle rejection, whether it is unwarranted or not.
The WT overlords would never allow down voting. That alone seems like justification for allowing it.
PS: I just down voted your comment. ?
Trinity discussion and the dogmatism and judgemental attitude that follows it. It remains an unending discussion that just won’t go away. Is it possible for trinitarians to miss the: Father yhwh, Jesus who came in the name of yhwh and The helper who the Jesus who came in name of the father yhwh promised? Is it possible for those who don’t subscribe to the trinity doctrine to miss theFather yhwh, Jesus who came in the name of yhwh and The helper who the Jesus who came in name of the father promised? Whether we are learned or unlearned, I believe… Read more »
Standing firm in the truth is not being dogmatic nor judgmental. There is nothing in the gospels showing Jesus was tolerant of false teachings, nor do any of the Christian writers demonstrate an attitude of appeasement when confronting false teachers. Trinitarians and those promoting other false doctrines like the immortal soul and hellfire will try to get us to “moisten their tongue with a drop of water” by asking us to let them be, claiming that it is all just a matter of opinion–as if there were no hard truths in Scripture nor in life. The father is seeking worshippers… Read more »
Wow 111 comments about a subject that will be answered by Jesus Christ himself when he comes and sits on his glorious throne and begins to seperate Trinitarians from non Trinitarians.… I thought this site is jw.org reviewer.
Good point. It was JW.org reviewer, but I think it is time to rethink that name since my ministry has expanded. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Your ministry has indeed expanded, brother Eric. Please keep up the absolutely amazing work that you do!
most important is to let the free flow of Gods Spirit take place and avoid setting up rules and becoming leaders of a group. the pattern I’ve seen is any, time a group is formed people want to Join, and for the purpose of Organization a leader is picked, appointed or self-anointed, to that position, and then to maintain the group rules and controls are created and in an attempt to maintain order, tyranny eventually sets in because in our imperfect state none of us can control and maintain that leadership position! that’s why our leader is and always must… Read more »
James Mansoor, if you need to wait for Jesus to tell you the truth about this doctrine, i suggest you wait in “Orthodox Christianity” until you get the answer! Just your reveals what you believe about this doctrine, and i think your heart is all riled up about it? (Luke 6:43-45) 43 “For no fine tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces fine fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thornbush. 45 A good man brings good out of the good… Read more »
just wondering, in harmony with your comment we can see that Cain (encouraged by his parents) assumed the special designation of the “seed of the woman” as his possession, this let to his behavior and the death of Abel and a early attempt for Satan to try to foil this prophesy from being completed! (I could talk more about this but that’s enough for now)
Thank you, Eric, for taking up the topic of the Trinity. I really like the title: Is the Trinity Doctrine Given from God or Revealed by the Devil. This doctrine divides Christians very much. And this is obvious to me because the followers of Christ are united and harmonious, and therefore not divided in the basic teachings of God. When I discuss with a man who denies Jesus’ life before he was born on earth and says that the Logos is God’s thought, I do not feel Christ’s unity with this man. Also, I do not feel such a oneness… Read more »
That’s a very interesting thought. Thank you for sharing.
All good mate. All good ?
Mate two old geezers like us, we can always have a yarn or two. Please everyone is there any words of encouragement you all can impart?
Just wondering, get that article out as I want to share it with some in our congregation and abroad.
Thanks heaps mate.
Just wondering if you could write a brief article to help encourage some Ukrainian brothers that I have asked them to have a look at this website… One elder that I know that has moved there said his eyes have been opened and thanks me.
I am sure the subject of the trinity will still be here to pick up where we left of.
What do think?
I always appreciated the aphorism, “Try to understand the Trinity and you will lose your mind – try to deny it, and you will lose your life.”
the Trinity doctrine is a satanic construct designed to stere individuals away from knowing our God the degree possible, it similar to the teaching of evolution only to be appreciated by the intellectuals of this evil satanic world. it makes it impossible for a person to bond with God or his son properly. its frontage is “chaos and confusion”! Yet i understand by the nature of this topic it draws like a magnet all those who are heart bound to this doctrine and blindly adhere to it, is becomes the central core of these individuals’ beliefs, and thus they can’t… Read more »
excellent thinking “just wrong”, if we remember the attitudes of Jews who fell into false worship for example under Jezebels leadership, think about the accounts of those who worshipped these false gods?
and then how Jehovah and empowered his profits to deal with them! the truly indoctrinated into false worship have a difficult path out of that snare!
Well put, JW
Hi Ken. I see here a discussion about Jesus’ presence in Sheol between his death on cross and his resurrection. I want to present my view of this quite often discussed matter and remembering 1 Cor 13:12 at the same time. The whole issue may arise from 1 Peter 3:18-19: „For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,“ [ESV] Let’s look at the time sequence… Read more »
Dear Frankie – thanks for your response about Jesus’ 3 days in hades question. I think it has gone off topic so I apologise to Eric for that. You mention in No 1, that you know brothers who believe there were two Gods or a Twinity. According to Michael S Heiser a biblical scholar, second temple Jews including Paul and the NT writers either knew or believed there were two powers in heaven. The two Yahweh’s in Gen 19:24. Also if you asked second temple Jews why all the wickedness on earth, according to Heiser, firstly they would say because… Read more »
Really good reasoning, Just Wondering. Thank you for sharing.
Eric, Towards the end of your article, you said “What happened when Jesus was dead for three days?” I always wondered when did Jesus “preach to the spirits in prison”? 1 Peter 3. I found this article on the internet called “What Christians Want to Know”. Where Did Jesus Go After His Death on the Cross? Jesus was put to death “in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” means that death could not hold Him. He was sinless and death are the wages of sin (Rom 6:23) but since Jesus never sinned, His spirit remained alive, even though He suffered… Read more »
just wondering, it wasn’t my assertion, I said it was from an article I found on the the internet called “What Christians Want To Know”. I was always puzzled as to when Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, namely the Sons of God. Gen 6. I know there are different theories. Ken
Hi Ken, My understanding is that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison during the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension. 1 Peter 3:18, 19 can be understood either as an instantaneous action or one that occurred after three days of time had passed. The time element isn’t specified. Jesus clearly said that he would be dead for three days. Revelation 1:18 says that he was dead. God cannot die, so Jesus cannot be God. The argument that article makes is based on a supposition. It simply states that his spirit remained alive but it provides no proof… Read more »
Eric – Does it really matter whether people believe in the trinity or not? What if they believe that the true God is YHWH and that Jesus is their saviour? Whether they be Mormons, JW’s or whatever, surely GOD knows what is in their hearts! King David, how many mistakes did he make, yet he always knew and believed YHWH – JEHOVAH – YAHWEH was the true God. There is a good article by Michael S Heiser about Naaman the leper mentioned by Jesus who was a pagan who believed in Yahweh, who asked Elisha if it was Ok to… Read more »
So are ‘faithful’ JWs, in fact all other ‘false’ Christians in the same boat with their beliefs? What if we all agree that we have the ‘truth’ on one of these topics but in fact we don’t? What about those who lived before the Reformation and the only understanding was IF you knew Latin? Only God can say for sure. Most all (regardless of denomination) follow what they have been “taught from infancy” and can’t see the ‘truth’ even though they may actually want to. That doesn’t mean that we should not keep digging for truth but we can only… Read more »
Good point Rudy, if we love God above all other things then we will accept “the truth” for what it is, and because that full manifestation of truth will not be here until after Gods Kingdom, we need to be willing to change and align our views to Gods when they are revealed perfectly to us. “Belonging to a denomination is potentially dangerous because of “Group Think” and our desire to please members of the group over God himself
Just wondering I think I know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth, it will be when Eric stops making videos and BP’s website disappears because the truth will set you free – from debate. – Ken
Ken when you say this “Just wondering I think I know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth” This statement reveals much about your thinking. First you say, “Just Wondering” followed by a very firm judgement of what you consider to be a group when you say: ” know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth”? Are you saying “the truth” exists in a group only if they allow all opposing viewpoints to be considered and discussed by the entire group as a unit? this is just the way “group think” a satanic construct” successfully compromises and waters down… Read more »
BobPfohl – All of the above. Thank you for your patience. I learned a lot in the last few days – I wish you All the Best. Thanks Eric I learned a lot from you – GOD Bless You – Ken
Just wondering & Eric, – just wondering you don’t have to apologize, I do agree with part of the article which is at this web address (https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-the-bible-tell-us-where-jesus-was-the-three-days-between-his-death-and-resurrection/) because I always had it in my mind that somehow after Jesus suffered the pangs of death as a human, he went on to preach to the “spirits in prison” which JW’s agree with “the angels that forsook their original position “Jude 6. I don’t believe Jesus is GOD, but he is the unique Son of God. Do we create our children or do we beget them. The article made sense to me… Read more »
Before answering, I need to know your understanding of this. Let’s forget about the time element. Does it matter whether he was dead for three days, or one day, or one hour, or one minute, or one second? The question is, do you agree he died? Not just his body with his spirit remaining alive and conscious. Was the person who was Jesus the man dead for some moment in time?
Hi Eric, To me it matters, Ezekiel 18:20 “The soul that is sinning…”, Jesus was without sin. John 2:19 “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days”. Either he was speaking about his fleshly body or his spiritual body which Christians can be a part of. If he was speaking about his fleshly body then he must have been alive as a Spirit Being to raise it up within the three days. As a human being I agree that Jesus died for our salvation, else we are without hope. Does it matter about the time period… Read more »
The “Jesus in hell” conversation seems a bit off topic but I’m glad it came up. I recently had to look into the topic myself after a conversation i had with some mormons. I was always under the impression that the spirits in prison were the angels that came to earth in Noah’s day. I’m not sure that that explanation doesn’t seem appropriate given that the similar descriptions of angels in chains/bonds/darkness in 2 Pete and Jude. It seems odd to me that Jesus would journey to these imprisoned angels just to rub it their faces, so to speak. I… Read more »
As for translating 1 Peter 3:19 as “the spirits that are NOW in prison”, a check of Bible Study Tools online did not show a single translation with “now” inserted into any version as you suggest… Check the parallel renderings on biblehub, there are a few. Also, if you want a better explanation than I can manage, check the commentaries on the verse in question. The gist is of the argument is that the spirits now in prison were spirits at the time Peter was alive, but had formerly been the people that Jesus preached to through his spirit through… Read more »
Where does the Bible say that people become spirits, so that Jesus could have even “preached” to them in this way in the first place? Jesus preached to them, in his spirit state, through Noah, when they were living people. For it is better, if the will of God should so will, that ye suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing. Noah suffered for righteousness, the people whom he preached to suffered for unrighteousness. Now their spirits await judgement – ‘in prison’. Note that I’m not making any suggestion that their spirits are conscious or suffering or anything else. To be… Read more »
Again, JA, I did not invent this line of reasoning. If you want a more in depth look into the subject, simply search through some of the commentary on the scripture on biblehub. I don’t know what you think the Word of God was doing before he was revealed as Jesus but the idea that he was active in God’s dealings with man is not an unheard of thought in the new testament. (Heb 11:26; Jude 5; 1 Cor 10:4; John 12:40-41) As far as a soul and a spirit go, you seem to conflate the two. Is the spirit… Read more »
JA was a typo. I meant JW- just wondering
NotSure you have put a lot of thought and research into your comments here. but to go to the trouble of doing this research and thinking, and writing out in your comment, and then to finalize your comment with the comment: “I’m not interested in scoring points, and I do not wish to continue this discussion either.” I find several contradictions in your words, vs scriptural principles i am aware of. when you make the above statement and end it with “I do not wish to continue the discussion” you are basically making a sign that cannot be changed and… Read more »
You must have missed the part when justwondering told me off and said he didn’t want to continue the discussion. It’s difficult to understand the context of my posts on account of justwondering removing all his posts
Ken Jesus proclaimed to the spirits in prison after he was resurrected. The latter part of 1 Peter 3:18 juxtaposes “put to death in the flesh” and “made alive in the spirit”(Peter uses the conjunction δέ to denote that what he is saying about being “made alive in the spirit” is apropos being “put to death in the flesh.”). “Put to death” is a reference to his crucifixion(an event), and “in the flesh” is a reference to the form he was put to death in(i.e. flesh and bones, a mortal human). “Made alive” a reference to His resurrection(an event), and “in the spirit” is… Read more »
rajeshsony With respect, I don’t understand Greek, and I barely get by with English, so I have to rely on English translations. Jesus was without sin. Jesus tasted death as a human for our salvation. Under GOD’s law Jesus had no need to be in the grave because he was sinless. In John 2:19 Jesus says, “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days”. To me he was either talking about his fleshly body or his spiritual body. Later on his disciples realise he was talking about his body. Notice that it is Jesus who raises… Read more »
If I could jump in here, it is true that Jesus was sinless and so would not die of sin. However, he as human and as such not immortal. He could die, or more specifically, he could be killed. The law would require a resurrection because his death would be a murder and God would have to make restitution. If God chose to leave him in the grave before resurrecting him, that would surely be God’s perrogative, would it not? So, we know he was resurrected as a spirit because 1 Peter 3:18, 19 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us… Read more »
Eric What is your thinking on John 2:19?
I find it interesting that Trinitarians get hyperliteral when it suits them and metaphorical when it doesn’t.
He literally says he will raise a body, not resurrect a body nor resurrect himself. The bible clearly says he is a life-giving spirit. So if a spirit raises a body would that not mean exactly what it says. When Jesus appears in a locked room, he was flesh. They touched him. He was not a spirit. How do we explain that without concocting a wild theory? Can we look elsewhere in scripture for spirits who can manifest themselves in the flesh?
Eric I have no problem with trinitarians. I think there is a lot that human beings don’t understand. If some believe in the trinity who am I to judge them, what about if they are right. There are a lot of passages in the NT that seem to imply that Jesus is GOD. The I AM passage. Jesus before Caiaphas which sealed his fate! Caiaphas knew Jesus was saying he was GOD. I have never been a trinitarian, Maybe it was JW’s who drummed it into me. I don’t think it matters as long as I try to follow Jesus… Read more »
j wondering I vaguely remember in the Greek translation of The New World Translation, it still renders it I AM. But don’t tell English speaking JW’s. What about Caiaphas knowing that Jesus was saying he was GOD, because the only person who was a cloud rider was YHWH or as JW’s put it Jehovah’s Chariot who they have a lot of trouble keeping up with – Ken
jwondering I can’t remember saying Jesus resurrected himself, I said Jesus raised his own body so he must have been a Spirit Being within the three days. On the internet if you Google Jesus resurrected Jesus, they are mostly Trinitarians.It’s just my belief that Jesus visited “the spirits in prison” within those three days. – Ken
Glad to see someone on this forum has heard of Heiser, he produces a lot of great content. It was through him that I became convinced of the Trinity.
I’m not such a fan of the man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc Towards the end of this video he says this is the clincher and it is when Jesus is before Caiaphas (Matthew 26:64) and Jesus says “you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven”. Caiaphas knew that only YHWH is the one that rides the clouds of heaven and why he got so angry.” Do you see the flaw in his reasoning? Do a search on “sit* right hand” and you quickly find that nowhere in Scripture is… Read more »
Eric – Matthew 19:26 – Ken
Do you mean GOD IS limited in some way?
5 loaves + 2 Fish = 1000’s of loaves + 1000’s 0f Fish
J wondering The Witnesses used to tell me when you are pointing the finger at someone, there’s always 3 fingers pointing back at you!
I couldn’t agree with you more, Just Wondering. I get this all the time on the YouTube forum. I think they think it is the comment equivalent of a mic drop. This is another example of hyperliteralism, which actually corrupts the message of the good news in the eyes of unbelievers. Take the creationists insistence that the 6 days of creation were 24 hours days as but one example. Here, it allows people to criticize the Bible as inconsistent and contradictory. If all things are possible, then it is possible for God to lie, yet the Bible says it is… Read more »
Eric I agree it is impossible for GOD to lie, but it is not impossible for GOD to use a spirit being to lie – to achieve His purposes 1Kings 22:22.- Ken
JW – Didn’t GOD give permission to Satan to test Job? How can I post a comment without drawing attention to myself? – Ken
I think you have missed Just Wondering’s point.
J wondering I apologise sincerely – I beg your pardon – Ken
I’m sorry you feel that way Jw but have you only 1 translation of the Bible? I was just quoting what the Bible says. I hate to bring Heiser’s name into it again but I didn’t want him to suffer from your condemnation. I wasn’t in anyway trying to smear GOD’s name.
Sorry, Ken, but that is a poor excuse since multiple translations are available on line: biblehub.com for instance.
Eric I don’t know j wonderings capabilities on the computer. I wasn’t being sarcastic. I heard from the above comments that he was an old geezer. Because of this form of communication it is easy to misunderstand peoples intentions. People could write in capital letters because of poor eyesight or they may prefer writing in capitals and it could be thought that they were shouting! What’s the purpose of these likes and dislike things do you think they help? I hope I haven’t said anything wrong. – Ken
Ken, why do you feel you need you defend Heiser” it looks to me like he has done a great job of building up his fame and name in the “Christian” community!
When men need credentials from “Satan’s Education system” and make themselves the center of attention other than Jesus, how can you follow such a man?
More importantly why would anyone looking to worship the great God Jehovah WANT TO HAVE A HUMAN TEACHER other than Christ himself?
Ken, do you believe in the trinity?
Isn’t this one of Eric’s ad hominem attacks? John 10:33. The Jews seemed to think Jesus was claiming to be God.
If you look at John 10:33 up in the interlinear, you will see that once again Trinitarian bias is at play. There is no definite article in front of the Greek word for God. No Jew would think that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh. Ho Theos, the God. Even today we have languages that don’t have an indefinite article. There are rules when translating Greek to guide translator so that he inserts the indefinite article when called for and removes the definite article when called for. We would never render John 1:1 in English, “In the beginning was the… Read more »
On ne peut pas citer des versets en les sortant de leur contexte. Qu’à répondu Christ à Jean 10 : 33 ? 35/36 “S’il est vrai qu’elle a appelé dieux ceux à qui la parole de Dieu a été adressée et si l’Ecriture ne peut pas être annulée, 36 comment pouvez-vous dire à celui que le Père a consacré et envoyé dans le monde: ‘Tu blasphèmes’, et cela parce que j’ai affirmé: ‘Je SUIS LE FILS DE DIEU ?” Christ dit : 1 – il n’aurait pas été faux de dire qu’il était un dieu en raison de son autorité… Read more »
Fani – It was the Jews that were saying Jesus was claiming to be God, not me. The question is, is Jesus a part of a trinity? There are scriptures in the old testament that seem to indicate that this is a possibility. I don’t dismiss that this is a possibility. I have an open mind to other peoples opinions. I know Jesus is the Son of God. The body of Christ is made up of many members. How do I understand that? How do you understand that? I am just searching for the truth. Thank you for your comment… Read more »
Did they really believe that or were they just upset that Jesus was a threat to their power they developed with their group of men?
Anyone who is both accepting and propounding a falsehood is by definition a liar. Not exactly. It depends on whether the person knows that what they accept(and proport) is in fact a falsehood. Saying a falsehood doesn’t necessarily make you a liar. Saying a falsehood when you know it’s a falsehood makes you a liar. A “lie” is defined by Merriam-Webster as an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive. Google dictionary defines a lie as an intentionally false statement. Dictionary.com defines a lie as a false statement made with… Read more »
All Heiser was saying is that it is possible for GOD to be in more than one place or person at one time else there are scriptures in the OT that make no sense at all. If someone disagrees with Eric’s preconceived ideas then he must be a liar.
Now that is a good example of an ad hominem attack. You haven’t proven your point at all. You just made a statement – shared an the opinion. Are you now saying that Heiser is not a Trinitarian?
Eric I do agree with you “that the ministers of Satan dress themselves in cloaks of righteousness” and I agree that Michael Heiser is a Trinitarian – Ken
I certainly see the flaw in your reasoning. First off we need to look at the wider context of the term “cloud rider” in the ancient near east. Ugarit was Israel’s close northern neighbour, and they share much vocabulary and imagery. In the Ugaritic texts, the god Baal is called “the one who rides the clouds.” The description became an official title of Baal , whom the entire ancient near eastern world considered a deity of rank. To ancient people all over the Mediterranean, Israelite or not, the “one who rides the clouds” was a deity— his status as a… Read more »
Hi copper, if the point you are trying to make is that the Israelites were not monotheistic as Trinitarians claim, then I completely agree. The Bible teaches that YHWH is the supreme God, power above all other powers, the source of all life. But it does not deny the existence of other gods whether they be unrighteous or righteous, false or true. The problem many face in trying to understand God is one of degree. They’re trying to put God inside the same box they put all other gods. They’re trying to measure God with the same yardstick they used… Read more »
Hello Meleti Vivlon, No I’m not referring to divine plurality, although I am in agreement with you that the ancient Israelites were not monotheistic, but were closer to henotheistic in their beliefs. I put this question to you: why were the Jews constantly trying to stone Jesus to death for blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son? It was because the title “The Son of God” by Jesus time was a common title for the coming davidic messiah, and consequently was seen as the second Yahweh figure. In Israelite law the only form of blasphemy which was punishable by death… Read more »
Hi Cooper, I’m not entirely sure what your point is, but perhaps I can help by pointing out your reasoning needs to start with an accurate translation of John 10. I’ve provided one below which I believe better reflects the context of that encounter between Jesus and the religious leaders: “31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for… Read more »
Eric You are doing your best to separate the Word from GOD, The body of Christ has many members all entitled to be called Christians, The Godhead has three members. all entitled to bear the Divine Name. That’s my understanding. – The word Trinity turns people off right away because of it’s association with the Catholic Church if you have been a JW. – Ken
I just want to remind everyone that if you prove that Jesus is God, you have NOT necessarily proved the Trinity. You have, at the very least, proved a duality. People seem to forget this all the time. They focus so hard on proving the divinity of Christ, and all because they think that’ll verify the Trinity doctrine. But that not need be the case. And this goes for those on the other side as well; if someone proves the divinity of Christ to you, you are not forced to accept the Trinity. Many people think that is the case,… Read more »
rajeshsony With the greatest respect I only said it was my understanding. I prefer not to call it the Trinity now but you are free to call it what you want. There is no question about the Divinity of Christ. But I think there are a lot of misconceptions floating around that’s made it hard to get the grips on what the “trinity” is. What about if Jesus is not the Almighty, did he ever claim to be? But he still has the right to bear the Divine Name. As for The Holy Spirit. If it’s GOD’s Holy Spirit then… Read more »
I agree that the Spirit is a part of God, but the reasoning you used to reach that conclusion is not sound. One can very easily possess something without it being an integral part of their nature. For example, I own a dog… People would call it Rajesh’s dog. But that dog is not intrinsic to my nature, despite my owning it. But, once again, I agree that God’s Spirit is a part of Him.
Have a good day. 🙂
rajeshsony – I thought we were having an intelligent discussion here, are you suggesting that there might be dogs in the body of Christ called Christians? – My understanding is that the Three members of the Godhead are all of the same Nature hence all entitled to bear the Divine Name. Jesus is unique, the Holy Spirit is unique, and YHWH is unique according to Heiser and a lot of other scholars the meaning of monogenesis not “only begotten” – Ken
I should have said monogenes not monogenesis. I beg yor pardon.. Here is an article from a website subtitled “Jesus as Monogenes” “The history of the interpretation of this word is quite fascinating. Prior to and during New Testament times the word clearly meant something like “unique” or “only.” However, quite fascinatingly, and without warrant, the meaning was changed to “only begotten” in the early Christian centuries. The distortion of the word in the Latin Vulgate and the subsequent perpetuation of the error in the King James Version of 1611 A.D. make fascinating reading. It might appear that we have… Read more »
So you would have us believe that YHWH, wanting to help his human children and choosing the metaphor of a father son relationship and then calling his son the only one, would expect his children to disregard the fact that every son is begotten?
Eric It’s not up to me to have you believe anything. It was you who throwed down the challenge for somebody to explain or to try to explain the Trinity. You know yourself it’s not easy to explain. I’m just going by what other people are saying. I wasn’t a Trinitarian. I just remembered that Michael Heiser had said something about the Two Powers in Heaven years ago. It never bothered me about the the Trinity. Like Cooper I don’t think understanding the Trinity is necessary for salvation. I think God’s Grace and love are more important! What did Jesus… Read more »
You Write: “I don’t think understanding the Trinity is necessary for salvation.”
Would you be of the opinion that we can believe any one of the following theologies and still be saved to be with Christ as kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens?
Eric I’m an earthly bloke, from the time I saw my first butterfly and flower I fell in love with God’s creation. I’ve been a sinner right up to the present moment. I don’t understand heavenly things. If GOD allows me to be resurrected on earth through Jesus’ work on the cross then that’s enough for me. – Best Wishes – Ken.
Ken simple question, how much of “Christian Orthodoxy” do you subscribe to? Ken? Ken? KEN? Funny how they all use what I call “NPR Radio/Love” approach to try to jamb these doctrine’s down people’s throats and then when really pushed on the subject they “flutter away”? what I find is a mock humility, and a total lack of openness to learn anything truthful! these people from Orthodoxy seem to be all hanging out thinking they can subvert every Christian who falls out of the JW Organization, they fail to realize that so many are now being guided by Holy spirit… Read more »
Good to have you with us, BobPfohl
Hi Ken It seems that many who are no longer part of the organisation still maintain a very rigid belief system. John 3:16 sums up our salvation in believing in Christ. Of course the term believing means more then simply believing that he existed. We must put faith and appreciation in his sacrifice, which includes behaving in the way Jesus instructed us. I see Meleti Vivlon started naming belief systems and asking which ones will lead to the practitioner being saved. To my knowledge the only one that wouldn’t qualify is Gnosticism as they reject that Christ’s death had any… Read more »
If YHWH is the name of the Father and Jesus is the name of the son, what is the name given all three as the trinity and what is the name of the holy spirit?
A valid point often overlooked in discussions. Thanks.
ken that’s “pure Orthodoxy”
I see that even though you’ve removed yourself from the organization, some of their doctrines are still dear to you. That’s fine, the important thing is that we both managed to get out from under the GB’s grip. For the record I don’t think belief (or unbelief) in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, but I think it’s unnecessary to refer to an evangelical biblical scholar as a liar just because he teaches a doctrine you don’t believe. I would heartily recommend Alan F. Segals “Two Powers in Heaven”, it’s still the finest scholarly work available today for tracing the… Read more »
Cooper, do you believe all the teachings of the organization are false?
I believe that any teachings of theirs which are based on faulty interpretation of scripture, eg interpreting with no regard for the original cultural context, are false. I also believe that any doctrines they hold which they must prop up by misquoting experts, hiding evidence, and outright lying are also false. 1914 comes to mind.
I agree, but that would also mean that the Trinity is false since it relies on a faulty interpretation of Scripture.
That’s your opinion, but where’s the evidence? I’ve cited numerous scriptures, second temple writings and a few targums to prove my point, which is that there was a basic trinitarian theological framework in existence long before Christ, a position now held by many modern scholars. You’re relying on an outdated scholarly opinion from the early 20th century when scholars didn’t yet have access to many of these writings, and certainly didn’t understand the cultural context that they were written in. Consequently today we are in a much better position to understand what was believed by ancient Jews. Just so we’re… Read more »
I’m unclear about what you are referring to when you write that I’m relying “an outdated scholarly opinion from the early 20th century”. You’re replying to a comment that quotes no scholarly opinion at all. Here’s the text of the comment you are replying to:
I agree, but that would also mean that the Trinity is false since it relies on a faulty interpretation of Scripture.
I’m referring to the interviews you had with James Penton regarding the Trinity, the first of which had the following view to offer: “But from what you’re telling me, there is no evidence in the Bible, nor in the history of the nation of Israel prior to Christ, nor any community of Christianity up to the 3rd century of any clear indication of a Trinity.” Penton then agrees with your statement. This seems to be the framework you work off of in every Trinity article of yours I’ve read, and seeing as it’s your website I think people here should… Read more »
Cooper “Truth is truth” and if you want to rely on the thinking of “men with letters” to reason for you to prove something as clear as the trinity’s origin, and to try to build small fragments of it being part of Jewish thinking from the past, then that’s on you, if you study both the scriptures and secular historical writings, the Trinity doctrine came thru Nimrod and Babylon, not from the “kabala’s of the ancient jews”, it was clearly introduced into the apostate Christian organization after the death of John, and then fully accepted and pushed by good old… Read more »
You still subscribe to the ideas of Alexander Hislop? He literally made all that up. His theories were based on nothing credible, mostly his imagination. Even the organisation doesn’t cite him anymore. I’m afraid you’ve been misled by a man of letters yourself.
lol “He literally made all that up” and with such a statement (a lie) you negate all that historical documentation!!! lol its clear to see where your heart/mind is!
Historical documentation?? I doubt you looked into the topic too deeply, otherwise you wouldn’t be making such claims. Thanks for indirectly calling me a liar. I’ll do you the service of not returning the insult brother, as it seems to me that you truly do believe that the Trinity came from Nimrod. I will say that I feel you’re misguided, and I hope that you do one day “come to an accurate knowledge of truth” to quote our old JW brethren. God bless you BobPfohl.
cooper I don’t really understand how the TWO powers in Heaven theory supports the Trinity. Wouldn’t it oppose the Trinity? If the Trinity were true, wouldn’t it be THREE powers in Heaven? The Trinity asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all co-equal and co-eternal, meaning that none of them have a beginning(each is uncreated) AND that each is the same in terms of power and authority. If such a notion were true, wouldn’t we see it reflected in, oh I don’t know, God’s word the Bible? If the notion of a God who is “1 essence, 3… Read more »
Hello rajeshsony The Jews of Jesus day held many differing views of how exactly God operates. The “two powers” motif was just one such one, and is one for which we have extant manuscripts for it being termed that way. There are other writings which preserve other traditions showing that many Jews held to a “three in one” theological framework. Philo records such traditions, as does Origen which he learned from his Hebrew master. The ascension of Isaiah, a document which has close affinities with the Qumran documents, opens with the words of Isaiah to Hezekiah using a trinitarian formula:… Read more »
I’m getting the impression that for a trinitarian, any mention of the three in a single verse supports the entirety of their doctrine. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are all mentioned in the same verse and they all share the same nature, ergo, a Trinity.
I believe the first real Trinity was made up of the first 3 rebels against Jehovah, and that was Satan, Eve, and Adam, that was the first trinity!
Cooper: its a false assumption on the part of all the “orthodox Christians” trolling here to conclude that just because a person left “the organization” (of JWS) that they desire or should return to “Christian orthodoxy”!!! to the contrary, genuine Christians are led by gods spirit to progress out of both “orthodoxy and the JW Organization” to continue progressing away from the great apostasy and towards aligning their thinking towards Jesus kingdom, soon to be here! this means progressing beyond the “Group think” that entraps both groups!! (2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because… Read more »
“For Him to raise up His body He must have been a Spirit Being within the three days.” why do you understand John 2:19 the way you do?
I’m still trying to wrap my head around how those who used to be jdubs, are still spiritually minded and believe in God are then turning around and adopting Christendom’s theory of trinity. In my mind, it’s the equivalent of dropping a bad boyfriend just to pick up a rebound without even really knowing who he is. You’d think someone walking away from false doctrine wouldn’t be so eager to pick up another plate and not really examine all the ingredients first. How does this even happen?
My theory is that the need to belong to some group, to not be all alone, overwhelms their love of truth.
Maybe God will forgive them!
I’m sure God will forgive the Unitarians too!
I’m sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!
There are four slaves. Only one gets the prize offered to Christians by Jesus. But apparently, two of them do get another chance at life. “Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 44 I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all… Read more »
If we draw conclusions like this “I’m sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!” are we not making “a Judgement” in our heart that wrong thinking is ok? and so what is the incentive to search for the truth as a “valuable pearl”, Paul talked about being “disapproved somehow” so should we set rules to ourselves or others presuming what Jehovah will forgive and not forgive, that is in essence “playing God” and technically violating the first commandment!
Dear BobPohl, my response to Cooper was not intended as a condemnation, but quite the opposite. You know, I’m a long way from judging anyone. My answer was only replica that basically followed my comment above, where I highlighted love. So the (perhaps) hidden meaning of my response to Cooper is about mutual love: “I’m sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!“ + „I’m sure God will forgive the Unitarians too!“ = „Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8). So Cooper loves all Unitarians (and certainly Trinitarians, too) and wants… Read more »
My dear Frankie, First of all, my love for both Cooper and you motivates me to caution you both on becoming judges in place of God or his son! The full and correct understanding “love” is oh so very important in our ability to be “one with God”, and his Son. So, let’s look to the scriptures to help us understand it better. (Mark 8:30-33) 30 At that he strictly ordered them not to tell anyone about him. 31 Also, he began teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the elders and the chief… Read more »
we are to forgive each other – this is the commandment of our Lord:
“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,” (Matt 6:14)
Matt 18:22; Luke 11:4; 17:4; John 20:23; 2 Cor 2:10; Eph 4:32; Coloss 3:13.
I have nothing more to say about this. Please, try to think about forgiveness.
With love, Frankie.
Dear Frankie, I see no sin being committed here? unless you view discipline as a sin? What exactly do you feel i am not forgiving about or over? (2 Timothy 3:8-4:5) 8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my… Read more »
So I accused you of not forgiving? Am I sitting on Jehovah’s seat of Judgment? And what else do you make of my simple claims that we should forgive each other? What else are you accusing me of?
I have never condemned anyone and I do not condemn you either. I don’t know what your intention is.
Leave me alone! End of discussion.
Frankie, when you use the term “my simple claims” shows you desire to present yourself as humble in in the eyes of those observing your words, your 2 opening questions are clever ways of accusing me of Judging your “eventuality” not your behavior, no only Jehovah or his son can do that, but your behavior is very transparent to me, and you don’t what it exposed so you fain ignorance and deny your behavior and try to stifle any further discussion to be able to come to a truthful and honest conclusion or consensus of truth. thus, there is no… Read more »
I Agree completely!
I want to apologize for my strict response to your comment. Sometimes I don’t have a good day, but I can’t be angry for long. I’m not angry with you at all, and I hope you’re not angry with me either. We may have different opinions, but more important is the love between brothers and sisters, you and me and all of us.
I would like to hug you and I wish you much of God’s blessing on your journey from WT to Jesus Christ.
With love, Frankie.
This counsel is relevant.
“. . .Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”” (Luke 17:4)
We notice that the forgiveness is not granted willy nilly, but rather as a consequence of a repentant plea.
Dear Eric, I think the first scripture I mentioned is relevant: “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,” (Matt 6:14) – but the others are also important. That text is about an action you have to take against your brother first – that’s important. You must be active in forgiveness because: „ … if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.“ (Matt 6:15). If I do not forgive, I will not be forgiven. However, God can forgive the one who sinned against me, even if… Read more »
We have to harmonize all of scripture to get a full understanding and be balanced. God does not forgive everyone. Otherwise, there would be no need for the lake of fire. The important element is our willingness to forgive whenever there is true repentance.
For what it’s worth, mutual love is what I got from your comment! God bless you brother.
are you not “Judging” Cooper with your thinking? and is that not a dangerous thing to do?
I’ve judged no one in place of God, I pray that all my brothers continue on the narrow path towards life.
This is what I call “group Think” it is bound up in satanic brainwashing linked to so many things: the trinity = group of 3, democracy = obedience to the majority of a group, (which happens to be the trick Rutherford used to take control of the Bible Students group), this need and social programing Satan has socially engineered into us is strongly promoted by the society and the allegiance is to the group and the group leaders, this was done very cleverly by Rutherford starting in 1917 the literature he wrote by constantly whenever mentioning “God” Or “Jehovah” then… Read more »
“the reader eventually views the two separate things as equal “God” and “the organization” this is a very clever use of group think.” The most recent and perhaps biggest example of this was Study Article 39 of the September 2021 Watchtower, “When a Loved One Leaves Jehovah”. Throughout the article, being disfellowshipped/disassociating with the organization is equated with “leaving Jehovah”. I’m not actually sure if the article even mentions “leaving the organization” once. I don’t think it does. It only ever says “leaving Jehovah”. It’s unbelievable how far it’s gone. In the minds of JW, leaving the organization is synonymous… Read more »
sincerelyours, If a genuine truth seeker, a person, is a Jehovah’s witness because they believe that “Gods truth” is found only within the confines of that human organization’s boundaries, and then is confronted with the possibility that that is not true, then they have a difficult decision to make, it then test them as to how genuine there love for God really is vs love for self or others (group). so many love the group think over God, and when “disfellowshipped from JWS” they look for Group acceptance rather than realizing the real Gift from God in being thrown out… Read more »
These thoughts and reasoning from the Scriptures are brilliant. I’m going to pilfer them shamelessly for the final video in the trinity series. ?
There is no shame in us collaborating together, I’m a big believer in Synergy, and when you throw in Gods holy spirit much good can be accomplished! i have so many things I want to eventually share with you and others gathered here! We can boast in the Good news of truth: (1 Corinthians 9:15-18) 15 But I have not made use of a single one of these [provisions]. Indeed, I have not written these things that it should become so in my case, for it would be finer for me to die than—no man is going to make my reason… Read more »
While the Beroean Picket Bible & Tract Society are arguing amongst themselves, the madmen who run the world are trying to figure out which cities they are going to drop their nukes on!!
Why would you speak so disparagingly of us?
Eric – Because the articles and videos you make are always going to cause divisions maybe you have some deep seated reason to target the Watchtower all the time instead of concentrating on positive things like a lot of other “Orthodox” Christian sites . That’s just my opinion- One must add. – !
(Matthew 10:33-35) . . .. 34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Divisions are the consequences of individuals who go contrary to Gods law and those who strive to align themselves with God!
Yes, Ken if you’re not interested is progressing beyond “Orthodoxy” stay with it, and die with it!
How “all over the map” you are in your desperate desire to “derail this train”!
Eric – Why do you speak so disparagingly of the leaders of the WBTS even though it might be thinly veiled. Why are you censuring me? Are you using an ip logger? Why is everybody using aliases? What is it they are frightened of? Matthew 10:37. – Ken
So my question was to ask you why you speak disparagingly of us and your answer was to hurl more disparaging accusations???
If you are not happy here, why do you continue to come?
1) I do so for the same reason that Jesus spoke disparagingly of the religious leaders of his day. Do you have a problem with that? 2) Do you believe censuring someone is always wrong? 3) I’m not sure what an IP logger is, but I don’t use one. I’m not sure why you think I would even need one. 4) We use aliases here because we are trying to avoid persecution. (I’m assuming you’ve never been a JW.) 5) I don’t accept the premise of your question. It’s like if I were to ask you when did you stop… Read more »
Eric If you allow me to answer your statements without being censured 1) The religious leaders either saw or knew that Jesus was working miracles. I can’t remember the GB doing any miracles unless you can count quick builds. 2) I don’t believe censuring is always wrong but I asked you why you was censuring me via an email and I thought I was entitled to an answer. 3) You mention in your rules that if someone is logged out they wouldn’t be “tracked” and you yourself said you wrote software and you know programming. I only asked you if… Read more »
You asked me why I speak disparagingly of the GB and I answered that I do so for the same reason that Jesus spoke disparagingly of the religious leaders of this day. I then expected you to answer my question, but instead, you came up with this confusing piece of reasoning:
1) The religious leaders either saw or knew that Jesus was working miracles. I can’t remember the GB doing any miracles unless you can count quick builds.
What does the GB not performing miracles have to do with anything?
2) You would have been entitled to an answer if your premise was true, but again you are working on a false premise. Here is the definition of “censure”.
“express severe disapproval of (someone or something), especially in a formal statement.”
To the best of my knowledge, I have not done that to you, but if that isn’t the case, please point me to where I did.
4) Why are you sorry about the new rule? Is it too much work to include the text of your references to save your readers the work of looking it up? You wrote in closing “If you have the deepest love Dear Eric then you will allow this reply – Best Wishes – Ken” I have allowed all your replies to date, have I not? You are right that I do not know your circumstances nor your level of Bible knowledge, so allow me to explain that when I say “deepest love”, I was referring to agape love, which always… Read more »
Eric – With respect no you haven’t. “If you are not happy here, why do you continue to come?” I replied “Maybe you had the “Truth””. It never showed up even though I got an email saying you had approved it. Therefore you had censured me contrary to what you had said “I am not censuring you”. I asked you what is the difference between censure and approval. You never answered that question. censure and disapproval are synonyms If I have to have your approval (it’s your website you have that right) then as soon as you disapprove then you… Read more »
You complained about being censured when I put you in an approval queue. That is not censure. I passed all of your comments that I felt didn’t violate forum commenting guidelines. Some did violate guidelines–like this one–but I passed them anyway.
Ken, you seem pretty transparent to me and in not afraid to explain that to you, You always start your messages out with a statement like “With Respect”, “For what it’s worth”, “I’ve Judged no one” etc. this is called “virtue signaling”! its designed to make people view you as a “person with virtue!” the problem with that is you are constantly self-declaring that virtue in yourself rather than letting your listeners determine that by your words and actions, (that’s a form of boasting in yourself)! then comes your attack, always designed to paint the person you’re debating with as… Read more »
No Alias here?, what about your “full transparent name” Ken? Ken this is the fear you should have!! (Ecclesiastes 3:14) 14 I have come to know that everything the true God makes will endure forever. There is nothing to add to it and nothing to subtract from it. The true God has made it this way, so that people will fear him. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden… Read more »
ken: your accusations of using “an ip logger” seem demonic in nature!
(Genesis 3:4, 5) . . .At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
nasty use of the “power of Suggestion”!!
Ken, what you call “Arguing amongst themselves” as if it’s a “bad thing” to have a “constructive theocratic discussion” scripture defines as a process necessary for men who are united in having the goal of finding the truth to be able to meet and discuss and to allow “Holy spirit” to guide them to a proper consensus! instead, you try to disrupt that process with a “satanic war” diversion that “genuine Christians” should stay away from! We trust our Great God Jehovah and his Son, that they will make sure his will and purpose will take place right on schedule… Read more »