The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan?

– posted by meleti


Each time I’ve released a video on the Trinity – this will be the fourth one – I get people commenting that I don’t really understand the Trinity doctrine. They are right. I don’t understand it. But here’s the thing: Each time someone has said that to me, I’ve asked them to explain it to me. If I truly don’t understand it, then lay it out for me, piece by piece.  I’m a reasonably intelligent fellow, so I think that if it’s explained to me, I would be able to get it.

What response do I get from these Trinitarians? I get the same old tired proof texts that I’ve seen for decades. I don’t get anything new. And when I point out the incongruities in their reasoning and the textual inconsistencies between their proof texts and the rest of Scripture, I again get the derisive response: “You just don’t understand the Trinity.”

Here’s the thing: I don’t need to understand it. All I need is some real empirical proof that it exists. There are a lot of things I don’t understand, but that doesn’t mean I doubt their existence. For example, I don’t understand how radio waves work.  Nobody does.  Not really.  Yet, every time I use my cell phone, I prove their existence.

I would argue the same about God. I see evidence about intelligent design in the creation around me (Romans 1:20). I see it in my own DNA.  I am a computer programmer by profession. When I see computer program code, I know someone wrote it, because it represents information, and information comes from a mind. DNA is infinitely more complex code than anything I’ve ever written, or could write, for that matter. It contains information that instructs a single cell to multiply in a very precise way so as to produce a very chemically and structurally complicated human being. Information always originates from a mind, from an intelligent purposeful consciousness

If I were to land on Mars and find words carved into a rock reading, “Welcome to our world, Earthman.” I would know that there was intelligence at work, not random chance.

My point is that I don’t have to understand the nature of God to know that he exists. I can prove his existence from the evidence around me, but I can’t understand his nature from that evidence. While creation proves to me the existence of a god, it doesn’t prove that he is a three-in-one entity.  For that I need evidence not found in nature.  The only source for that type of evidence is the Bible. God reveals something of his nature through his inspired word.

Does God reveal himself as a Trinity? He gives us his name almost 7,000 times.  One would expect him to also name his nature, yet the word Trinity, which comes from the Latin trinitas (triad) is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

Jehovah God, or Yahweh if you prefer, has chosen to reveal himself and he has done that in the pages of the Bible, but how does that revelation work? How does it come to us? Is it encoded in Scripture?  Are aspects of his nature concealed in the holy writings, waiting for a few intelligent and privileged minds to decipher the hidden code? Or, has God simply chosen to tell it like it is?

If the Most High, the Creator of all things, has chosen to reveal himself to us, to reveal his very nature to us, then shouldn’t we all be on the same page? Shouldn’t we all have the same understanding?

No, we shouldn’t. Why do I say that? Because that is not what God wants.  Jesus explains:

“At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.” (Matthew 11:25-27 BSB).

“Those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” According to this passage, the Son does not choose the wise and learned.  When his disciples asked why he did that he told them in no uncertain terms:

“The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them… This is why I speak to them in parables.” (Matthew 13:11,13 BSB)

If someone thinks he is wise and learned, intelligent and scholarly, special and visionary, and that these gifts grant him the ability to decipher the deep things of God for the rest of us, even God’s true nature, then he is deceiving himself.

We don’t figure God out.  God reveals himself, or rather, the Son of God, reveals the Father to us, but he doesn’t reveal God to everyone, just to the chosen ones. This is significant and we need to think about what quality our Father is looking for in the ones he chooses to be his adopted children. Is he seeking intellectual prowess?  How about those who promote themselves as having special insights into God’s word, or proclaim themselves as God’s channel of communication? Paul tells us what God is looking for:

“And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28, BSB).

Love is the thread that weaves back and forth to unite all knowledge into a whole.  Without it, we cannot get the spirit of God, and without that spirit, we cannot get to the truth. Our heavenly Father chooses us because he loves us and we love him.

John writes:

“Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1 BSB)

“Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.” (John 14:9-11BSB)

How is it possible for God to communicate truth in such plain speech and simple writing which his adopted children can understand, yet which he hides from those who think themselves to be wise and intellectual? For certainly the wise or intellectual ones, by Jesus’ own admission in Matthew 11:25, can’t understand the meaning of unity or love between the Father, the Son, and the chosen ones through the holy spirit because the intellectual mind seeks complexity so that it can distinguish itself from ordinary folk. As John 17:21-26 says:

“I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” (John 17:21-26 BSB)

The oneness that Jesus has with God is based on the unity that comes from love. This is the same oneness with God and Christ that Christians experience.  You will notice that the holy spirit is not included in this oneness. We are expected to love the Father, and we are expected to love the Son, and we are expected to love one another; and more than that, we want to love the Father, and we want to love the son, and we want to love our brothers and sisters. But where is the command to love the holy spirit?  Surely, if it were the third person of a holy Trinity, such a command would be easy to find!

Jesus explains that it is the Spirit of truth that moves us:

“I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.” (John 16:12, 13)

Naturally, if you believe that the Trinity doctrine defines the nature of God, then you want to believe that the spirit guided you to that truth, right? Again, if we try to work out the deep things of God for ourselves based on our own ideas, then we will get it wrong every time. We need the spirit to guide us. Paul told us:

“But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit.”  (1 Corinthians 2:10,11 New Living Translation)

I don’t believe the Trinity doctrine defines God’s nature, nor his relationship with his Son, Jesus Christ. I also believe that the spirit guided me to that understanding.  A Trinitarian will say the same thing about his understanding of God’s nature. We can’t both be right, can we? The same spirit did not guide us both to different conclusions. There is only one truth, though there can be many lies. Paul reminds the children of God:

“I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10 NIV)

Let’s explore Paul’s discussion of the unity of mind and thought a little bit more as it is an important scriptural theme and therefore essential to our salvation. Why do some people think that we can each worship God in our own way and with our own understanding, and in the end, we’ll all end up with the prize of eternal life?

Why is understanding God’s nature vital?  Why does our understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son affect our chances at getting everlasting life as children of God in the resurrection of the righteous?

Jesus tells us: “Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” (John 17:3 BSB)

So, knowing God means life. And what about not knowing God? If the Trinity is a false teaching originating in pagan theology and forced down the throat of Christians on pain of death, as it was by the Roman emperor Theodosius after 381 CE, then those who accept it do not know God.

Paul tells us:

“After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 BSB)

Okay, okay. So, we can all agree that knowing God is crucial to pleasing him and gaining his approval which leads to eternal life.  But if you believe in the Trinity and I don’t, doesn’t that really mean that one of us doesn’t know God? Is one of us in danger of losing out on the prize of eternal life with Jesus in the kingdom of the heavens? It would seem so.

Well, let’s review. We’ve established that we can’t figure God out by sheer intellect.  In fact, he hides things from the intellectuals and reveals them to childlike ones as we saw at Matthew 11:25.  God has adopted children and, like any loving father, he shares intimacies with his children that he doesn’t share with strangers.  We’ve also established the way he reveals things to his children is through the holy spirit. That spirit guides us into all the truth.  So, if we have the Spirit, we have the truth. If we don’t have the truth, then we don’t have the Spirit.

That brings us to what Jesus told the Samaritan woman:

“But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23, 24 BSB)

So, Jehovah God is looking for a particular type of individual, one who will worship him in spirit and in truth. We must therefore love truth and be guided by God’s spirit into all the truth that we earnestly seek. The key to gaining that knowledge, that truth, isn’t by our intellect.  It is through love.  If our heart is filled with love, the spirit can guide us right through.  However, if we are motivated by pride, the spirit will be hindered, even blocked altogether.

“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:16-19 NIV)

What this represents is huge; it is no trivial matter.  If the Trinity is true, then we must accept it if we are going to be among those worshipping the Father in Spirit and in truth and if we are going to be the ones he favors with eternal life. But if it is not true, we must reject it for the same reason. Our eternal lives hang in the balance.

What we’ve said before, bears repeating. If the Trinity is a revelation from God, then the only evidence of it is to be found in Scripture. If the spirit has guided men to the truth and that truth is that God is a Trinity, then all we need is childlike trust and humility to see God for what he truly is, three persons in one God.  While our feeble human minds may not be able to grasp the manner in which this triune God can be, that is of little consequence. It would be sufficient that he reveals himself to be such a God, such a divine, three-in-one being. We do not need to understand how this works, but only that it is so.

Surely, those who have already been led by the Spirit of God to this truth can now explain it to us in a simple way, a way that little children can understand. So, before we look at the evidence in Scripture used to support the Trinity, let us first examine it as defined by those who would claim to have had it revealed to them by God’s holy spirit.

We will start with the ontological Trinity.

“Wait a minute,” you might say. Why are you putting an adjective like “ontological” in front the noun “Trinity”? If there is only one Trinity, why do you need to qualify it? Well, I wouldn’t, if there were only one trinity, but in fact there are many definitions.  If you care to look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, you’ll find “‘rational reconstructions’ of the Trinity doctrine, which employ concepts from contemporary analytic metaphysics, logic, and epistemology” like “One-self Theories”, “Three-self Theories”, “Four-self, No-self, and Indeterminate Self Theories”, “Mysterianism”, and “Beyond Coherence”.  All these things are guaranteed to bring the mind of the wise and intellectual endless delight. As for the childlike, ah, not so much.  In any case, we won’t get muddled down by all these many theories. Let’s just stick to the two main theories: The ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity.

So again, we will start with the ontological Trinity.

“Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being. The “ontological Trinity” refers to the being or nature of each member of the Trinity. In nature, essence, and attributes, each Person of the Trinity is equal. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same divine nature and thus comprise an ontological Trinity. The teaching of the ontological Trinity says that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in power, glory, wisdom, etc.” (Source: gotquestions.org)

Of course, that creates a problem because there are so many places in the Bible where the “power, glory, [and] wisdom” of one member of the Trinity—the Son—is shown to be subordinate or inferior to the “power, glory, [and] wisdom”, of another member—the Father (not to mention that there is never any exhortation to worship the holy spirit).

In an attempt to solve that, we have the second definition: the economic Trinity.

“The economic Trinity is often discussed in conjunction with the “ontological Trinity,” a term that refers to the co-equal nature of the Persons of the Trinity. The term “economic Trinity” focuses on what God does; “ontological Trinity” focuses on who God is. Taken together, these two terms present the paradox of the Trinity: The Father, Son, and Spirit share one nature, but they are different Persons and have different roles. The Trinity is both united and distinct.” (Source: gotquestions.org)

All of this is presented as a paradox. The definition of a paradox is: A seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true. (Source: lexico.com)

The only way you can legitimately call the Trinity a paradox is if this “seemingly absurd” doctrine is proved to be true.  If you cannot prove it to be true, then it isn’t a paradox, it’s just an absurd teaching. The only possible source for evidence to prove that the ontological/economic trinity is true, is the Bible.  There is no other source.

How does CARM, the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry, prove the teaching is true?

(Just to warn you, this is pretty long, but we really have to read it all to get the full height, and breadth, and depth of this kind of Trinitarian thought. I’ve left the Scriptural references but removed the actual quotations in the interest of brevity, but you can access the full text by using a link which I’ll put in the description field of this video.

The Economic Trinity

As stated above, the Economic Trinity deals with how the three persons in the Godhead relate to each other and the world.  Each has different roles within the Godhead and each has different roles in relationship to the world (some roles overlap).  The Father-and-Son is an inter-trinitarian relationship since it is eternal (more on this below).  The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10), the Son came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of the Father (John 6:38).  For a single verse that shows differences in roles, see 1 Pet. 1:2, “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood,” You can see that the Father foreknows. The Son became man and sacrificed himself. The Holy Spirit sanctifies the church. That is simple enough, but before we discuss this further, let’s look at some of the verses that support the difference of roles among the three persons of the Trinity.

The Father sent the Son.  The Son did not send the Father (John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14)

Jesus came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of the Father. (John 6:38)

Jesus performed the redemptive work.  The Father did not. (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24)

Jesus is the only-begotten.  The Father is not. (John 3:16)

The Father gave the Son.  The Son did not give the Father or the Holy Spirit. (John 3:16)

The Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit does not send the Father and the Son. (John 14:26; 15:26)

The Father has given the elect to the Son.  Scripture does not say that the Father gave the elect to the Holy Spirit. (John 6:39)

The Father chose us before the foundation of the world.  No indication that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us. (Eph. 1:4)

The Father predestined us to adoption according to the intention of his will.  This is not said of the Son or the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1:5)

We have redemption through Jesus’ blood, not the blood of the Father or the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1:7)

Let’s summarize.  We can see that the Father sent the Son (John 6:44; 8:18).  The Son came down from heaven not to do his own will (John 6:38).  The Father gave the Son (John 3:16), who is the only begotten (John 3:16), to perform the redemptive work (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24).  The Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit. The Father, who chose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), predestined us (Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29), and gave the elect to the Son (John 6:39).

It was not the Son who sent the Father.  The Father was not sent to do the will of the Son.  The Son did not give the Father, nor was the Father called the only-begotten.  The Father did not perform the redemptive work.  The Holy Spirit did not send the Father and Son.  It is not said that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us, predestined us, and gave us to the Father.

Furthermore, the Father calls Jesus the Son (John 9:35), not the other way around.  Jesus is called the Son of Man (Matt. 24:27); the Father is not. Jesus is called the Son of God (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35); the Father is not called the Son of God.  Jesus will sit on the right hand of God (Mark 14:62; Acts 7:56); the Father does not sit on the right hand of the Son. The Father appointed the Son as the heir of all things (Heb. 1:1), not the other way around.  The Father has fixed the time of the restoring of the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:7), the Son didn’t.  The Holy Spirit gives gifts to the Church (1 Cor. 12:8-11) and produces fruit (Gal. 5:22-23).  These are not said of the Father and Son.

So, clearly, we see differences in function and roles.  The Father sends, directs, and predestines.  The Son does the will of the Father, becomes flesh, and accomplishes redemption.  The Holy Spirit indwells and sanctifies the Church.

Now remember that the ontological trinity, which the economic Trinity supports, states that “all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in power, glory, wisdom, etc.” The et cetera represents everything else.  So, reading all the above, where do we find equality in power, glory, wisdom, knowledge, authority, or anything else?  If you read all those bible verses without any preconceived ideas, without anyone telling you in advance what they mean, would you believe God is revealing himself to you by holy spirit as a Trinity? As three distinct persons making up one being?

What conclusion does the writer of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry article draw from all this:

Without these distinctions, there can’t be any distinctions between the persons of the Trinity and if there are no distinctions, there is no Trinity.

Huh?  I would look at all those distinctions to prove there isn’t a trinity, because they prove the three are not equal at all, but the writer of this article is turning all the evidence against there being a Trinity on its head and claiming that the evidence proves the Trinity after all.

Imagine if the police were to come to your door one night and say, “Your neighbor was found murdered. We found your gun at the scene with your fingerprints on it. We found your DNA under the victim’s fingernails.  We have three Witnesses who saw you enter the house minutes before the gunshot was heard and who saw you running out afterwards.  We have also found his blood on your clothes.  Finally, before he died, he wrote your name in blood on the floor.  All this evidence proves conclusively that you didn’t murder him.  In fact, if it were not for this evidence, you would be our prime suspect.”

I know. That is an absurd scenario, yet that is essentially the scenario of this CARM article.  We are expected to believe that all the Biblical evidence that disproves the Trinity, doesn’t disprove it at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Have these scholars lost their ability to think rationally, or do they just think the rest of us are fools. You know, sometimes there are no words…

It would appear that the purpose of the economic Trinity theory is to try to get around the mountain of scriptural evidence that demonstrates that the three members of the trinity are not equal to each other in any way. The economic trinity tries to shift the focus from the nature of the Father, Son and holy spirit to the roles each plays.

This is a cute trick. Let me show you how it works. I’m going to play a video for you. I have not been able to ascertain the source of this video, but it is evidently an excerpt from a debate between an atheist and a Christian Creationist. The atheist asks what he obviously believes is a gotcha question, but the Christian shuts him down quite effectively. His answer reveals some real insight into the nature of God. But that Christian is undoubtedly a Trinitarian. The irony is that his answer actually disproves the Trinity. Then, to conclude, he ironically engages in a nifty little piece of fallacious reasoning. Let’s listen:

Reinhold Schlieter: I’m confused.  Being philosophically consistent and being very honest person, I’m sure you can tell me where God came from. And in addition, in addition, once you have told me where God comes from, please try to clarify how you can figure that a spiritual force can have an impact on a material universe to create it.

Dr. Kent Hovind: Alright, your question, “Where did God come from?” assumes that your thinking of the wrong—obviously, it displays—that your thinking of the wrong god. Because the God of the Bible is not affected by time, space, or matter. If He’s affected by time, space, or matter, he’s not God. Time, space and matter is what we call a continuum.  All of them have to come into existence at the same instant. Because it there were matter, but no space, where would you put it? If there were matter and space, but no time, when would you put it? You cannot have time, space, or matter independently. They have to come into existence simultaneously. The Bible answers that in ten words: “In the beginning [there’s time], God created the heaven [there’s space], and the earth [there’s matter].

So you have time, space, matter created; a trinity of trinities there; you know time is past, present, future; space is height, length, width; matter is solid, liquid, gas.  You have a trinity of trinities created instantaneously, and the God who created them has to be outside of them. If he’s limited by time, He’s not God.

The god who created this computer is not in the computer. He’s not running around in there changing the numbers on the screen, okay? The God who created this universe is outside of the universe. He’s above it, beyond it, in it, through it. He’s unaffected by it. So, for…and the concept that a spiritual force cannot have any effect on a material body…well then, I guess you’d have to explain to me things like emotions and love and hatred and envy and jealousy and rationality. I mean if your brain is just a random collection of chemicals that formed by chance over billions of years, how on earth can you trust your own reasoning processes and the thoughts that you think, okay?

So, ah…your question: “Where did God come from?” is assuming a limited god, and that’s your problem. The God that I worship is not limited by time, space, or matter. If I could fit the infinite God in my three-pound brain, He would not be worth worshipping, that’s for certain. So that’s the God that I worship. Thank you.

I agree that God is infinite and cannot be affected by the universe. On that point, I am in agreement with this fellow. But he fails to see the impact of his words on his own belief system. How can Jesus who is God according to Trinitarian theory be affected by the universe? God cannot be limited by time.  God does not need to eat.  God cannot be nailed to a cross. God cannot be killed. Yet, he will have us believe that Jesus is God.

So here you have a wonderful explanation of the infinite intelligence and power and nature of God that doesn’t fit with Trinitarian theory. But did you notice how he still tried to introduce the Trinity into his argument when he quoted Genesis 1:1? He refers to time, space and matter as a Trinity. In other words, all creation, the entire universe, is a Trinity. Then he subdivides each element of this universe into its own trinity.  Time has past, present, and future; space has height, width, and depth; matter exists as a solid, liquid, or gas. A Trinity of Trinities, he called it.

You can’t just call something that exists in three states, like matter, a trinity.  (Actually, matter can also exist as plasma, which is a fourth state, but let’s not confuse the issue further.) The point is that we are seeing a common technique here.  The logical fallacy of false equivalence.  By playing fast and loose with the meaning of the word, trinity, he is trying to get us to accept the concept on his terms.  Once we do, he can then apply it to the real meaning he wants to convey.

Do I accept that Jehovah, Jesus, and the holy spirit all have different roles?  Yes. There you have it, the economic Trinity.  No, you don’t.

Do you agree that in a family you have a father, a mother and a child that all have different roles? Yes. Can you define them as a family? Yes.  But that is not equivalent to the Trinity. Is the father the family? Is the mother, the family? Is the child, the family? No.  But is the Father, God?  Yes, says the Trinitarian.  Is the Holy Spirit, God? Yes, again.  Is the Son, God?  Yes.

You see, the economic Trinity is just a way to try to take the evidence that disproves the ontological Trinity, and explain it away.  But in reality, most of those who use the economic Trinity to explain away the evidence against the ontological Trinity still believe in the ontological definition of three distinct persons in one being, who are all equal in all things. This is a magician’s trick.  One hand distracts you while the other hand performs the trick.  Look here: In my left hand, I hold the economic trinity.  Everything the Bible says about the different roles performed by the Father, Son, and holy spirit is true.  Do you accept that? Yes. Let’s call it a Trinity, okay? Okay.  Now in the right hand, “abracadabra,” we have the real trinity.  But it’s still called the Trinity, right? And you accept the Trinity, right?  Oh. Yeah.  Okay, I get it.

Now to be fair, not everyone who is a Trinitarian accepts the ontological trinity. Many these days have developed their own definitions. But they still use the term, Trinity.  That’s a very important fact. It’s the key to explain the compulsion people have to accept the Trinity.

For most people, the definition doesn’t really matter so much. It used to matter. In fact, there was a time that you’d be tied to a stake and burned alive if you didn’t agree with it. But nowadays, not so much.  You can come up with your own definition and that’s okay. Just as long as you use the term, Trinity. It’s like the password to gain entry to an exclusive club.

The analogy I just used of a family actually fits with some definitions of the Trinity now in circulation.

If the only child in a family dies, it is no longer a family.  All that remains is a couple.  I asked a Trinitarian what happened when Jesus died for three days. His answer was that God was dead for those three days.

That is not the Trinity, but again, what matters is that the term itself is used.  Why?

I have a theory, but before I explain it, I should state that with this series of videos, I’m not trying to convince Trinitarians that they are wrong. This argument has been going on for over 15 centuries, and I’m not going to win it.  Jesus will win it when he comes.  I’m trying to help those who are awakening from the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses not to fall prey to another false doctrine. I don’t want them jumping from the frying pan of false JW theology into the fire of mainstream Christian dogma.

I know the appeal to belong to some group of Christians can be very strong. Some will reason that if they have to bend a little, if they have to accept another false doctrine, it is a price that they are willing to pay. Peer pressure and the need to belong is what drove first century Christians, at least some of them, to try to get the Gentiles to get circumcised.

Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12 NIV)

I believe it is a valid argument to apply that to our current situation and re-read the verse thus:

Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to believe God is a Trinity. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (Galatians 6:12 NIV)

The need to belong to a group means that the person is still trapped by the indoctrination of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.  “Where else will I go?” is the question most commonly asked by all who start to wake up to the falsehood and hypocrisy of JW.org.  I know of one Jehovah’s Witness who is trying to get reinstated even though he knows about all the false teachings and the UN affiliation hypocrisy and the child sexual abuse coverups.  His reasoning is that it is the best of all the false religions. His need to belong to a religion has clouded his mind to the fact that the chosen of God, the children of God, belong only to the Christ. We do not belong anymore to men.

So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. (1 Corinthians 3:21-23)

Of course, Trinitarians hearing this will claim they do have proof.  They will claim that the proof for the Trinity exists throughout the Bible.  They have many “proof texts”.  From this point forward, I’ll be examining these proof texts one by one to see if they do indeed provide the scriptural evidence for the doctrine, or if it is all smoke and mirrors.

For now, we’ll end and I’d like to thank you for your kind attention and, again, express my appreciation for your support.

 

Archived Comments

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  • Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-03-02 03:03:52

    Wow 111 comments about a subject that will be answered by Jesus Christ himself when he comes and sits on his glorious throne and begins to seperate Trinitarians from non Trinitarians.… I thought this site is jw.org reviewer.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-02 09:37:59

      Good point. It was JW.org reviewer, but I think it is time to rethink that name since my ministry has expanded. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

      • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-03-02 09:40:07

        Your ministry has indeed expanded, brother Eric. Please keep up the absolutely amazing work that you do!

      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 20:19:14

        most important is to let the free flow of Gods Spirit take place and avoid setting up rules and becoming leaders of a group.
        the pattern I've seen is any, time a group is formed people want to Join, and for the purpose of Organization a leader is picked, appointed or self-anointed, to that position, and then to maintain the group rules and controls are created and in an attempt to maintain order, tyranny eventually sets in because in our imperfect state none of us can control and maintain that leadership position! that's why our leader is and always must be Jesus, and until he comes we must be very careful about the structure of any group we get involved with, this is the Diametrics of what I call "Group think" HERE IN SATANS WORLD!

    • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-03 23:56:13

      James Mansoor, if you need to wait for Jesus to tell you the truth about this doctrine, i suggest you wait in "Orthodox Christianity" until you get the answer!
      Just your reveals what you believe about this doctrine, and i think your heart is all riled up about it? (Luke 6:43-45) 43 “For no fine tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces fine fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thornbush. 45 A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings what is wicked out of his wicked treasure; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks.
      (Matthew 12:33-37) 33 “Either you make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”
      (2 Chronicles 17:1-6) 17 And his son Je·hoshʹa·phat became king in his place, and he strengthened his position over Israel. 2 He stationed military forces in all the fortified cities of Judah and put garrisons in the land of Judah and in the cities of Eʹphra·im that Aʹsa his father had captured. 3 Jehovah continued with Je·hoshʹa·phat because he walked in the former ways of his forefather David and did not search for the Baʹals. 4 For he searched for the God of his father and followed his commandment and not the practices of Israel. 5 Jehovah kept the kingdom firmly established in his hand; and all Judah continued to give gifts to Je·hoshʹa·phat, and he had riches and glory in abundance. 6 His heart became bold in the ways of Jehovah, and he even removed the high places and the sacred poles from Judah.
      (Deuteronomy 8:1-20) . . .“You should be careful to observe every commandment that I am giving you today, so that you may continue living and multiply and go in and take possession of the land about which Jehovah swore to your forefathers. 2 Remember the long road that Jehovah your God made you walk these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble you and to put you to the test so as to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. 3 So he humbled you and let you go hungry and fed you with the manna, which neither you had known nor your fathers had known, in order to make you know that man does not live by bread alone but man lives by every expression from Jehovah’s mouth. 4 The clothing you wore did not wear out, nor did your feet become swollen these 40 years. 5 You well know in your heart that just as a man corrects his son, Jehovah your God was correcting you. 6 “Now you must keep the commandments of Jehovah your God by walking in his ways and by fearing him. 7 For Jehovah your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of streams of water, springs and fountains flowing in the valley plain and in the mountainous region, 8 a land of wheat and barley, of grapevines, fig trees, and pomegranates, a land of olive oil and honey, 9 a land where food will not be scarce and you will lack nothing, a land where the stones contain iron and from its mountains you will mine copper. 10 “When you have eaten and are satisfied, you must praise Jehovah your God for the good land that he has given you. 11 Be careful not to forget Jehovah your God by failing to keep his commandments, his judicial decisions, and his statutes that I am commanding you today. 12 When you eat and are satisfied and you build fine houses and dwell in them, 13 when your herd and your flocks multiply and your silver and gold increase and you have an abundance of everything, 14 do not let your heart become proud and cause you to forget Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, 15 who caused you to walk through the great and fearsome wilderness, with poisonous serpents and scorpions and with parched ground that has no water. He made water flow out of the flinty rock 16 and fed you with manna in the wilderness, which your fathers had not known, in order to humble you and to put you to the test so as to benefit you in the future. 17 If you should say in your heart, ‘My own power and the strength of my own hand have produced this wealth for me,’ 18 remember that it is Jehovah your God who gives power to you to make wealth, in order to carry out his covenant that he swore to your forefathers, as it is today. 19 “If you should ever forget Jehovah your God and you walk after other gods and serve them and bow down to them, I do bear witness against you today that you will surely perish. 20 Like the nations that Jehovah is destroying before you, that is how you will perish, because you would not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.


      James Mansoor: listen to the power from Gods word, and let it mold your heart and thinking!

  • Comment by BobPfohl on 2022-02-28 18:18:46

    just wondering, in harmony with your comment we can see that Cain (encouraged by his parents) assumed the special designation of the "seed of the woman" as his possession, this let to his behavior and the death of Abel and a early attempt for Satan to try to foil this prophesy from being completed! (I could talk more about this but that's enough for now)

  • Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-15 06:34:46

    Hi Derek,

    The Tetragrammaton, YHWH, represents the four-letter name of God which appears close to 7000 times in the original manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures. The translation made of that Hebrew name varies. The most common two translations are Yahweh and Jehovah in English. But these are translations or transliterations as the case may be, not the actual name as originally spelled and pronounced in Hebrew.

    If you come to our meetings on Sunday you will meet other people in the UK that you can associate with. The meeting times and the Zoom links are available at this link: https://beroeans.net/events/

  • Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-03-03 17:16:19

    Eric, Just wondering, Frankie,

    You have been a good source of encouragement for me… Keep up the good work.

    Eric, You said you will NOT bring back the upvotes and downvotes and this site was jw.org reviewer ONLY … Is your “light getting brighter and brighter?”

    Eric, Satan has demanded to have you sifted, but when you return, encourage your “family”. Know the reason why you were disfellowshipped and why you setup this website to help the witnesses to wake up.

    If your dear wife was still alive, what would she have said to you?

    Just wondering, I got hooked on looking up this website, everyday, sometimes twice to see any words of encouragement to reason with JW doctrines… Then I started to think, my audience don’t believe in trinity, but they believe strongly in Jehovah, Jesus, and the GB. And the majority of the ones on this website are JW’s who are still trapped one way or another and need some scripture’s to help them endure.

    Eric from what I understand, you are saying… My website, my rules. Paul said to the Galatians, you were doing good, what hindered you?

    Wow 132 comments, about the Trinity… and still the issue is not settled… all I can say is the Tower of Babel all over again…

    I welcome your downvotes. Jesus did and look were he is sitting now.

    • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-03 23:40:30

      James Mansoor, your comment here is one of the most controlling and manipulative posts I've seen in a long time, you are plucking all the "harp strings" available to you to try to steer this ship into a direction to please you!
      You feel free to speak for Jehovah and Satan? Seriously???
      This site is to do Jehovah's work WHAT EVER THAT MAY BE!!
      Not a platform for any man to become a leader and exercise his personal authority or to be controlled and manipulated into doing someone else's bidding!

      Do your really understand the "Babel" or its implications at this time?

      Don't you see that this talk and associated comments has generated some of the best offensive logical arguments to destroy this doctrine that was central to raising the Babylon's to such popularity in the first place?

      your desire to mock it and those who contribute to it tell me you're not behaving and a friend of God!

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-04 08:53:38

        Thank you for your rebuke of James and for your sound reasoning, BobPfohl.

  • Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-22 18:00:32

    Really good reasoning, Just Wondering. Thank you for sharing.

    • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-22 21:38:26

      Eric, Towards the end of your article, you said "What happened when Jesus was dead for three days?" I always wondered when did Jesus "preach to the spirits in prison"? 1 Peter 3.

       I found this article on the internet called

      "What Christians Want to Know".

      Where Did Jesus Go After His Death on the Cross?

      Jesus was put to death “in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” means that death could not hold Him. He was sinless and death are the wages of sin (Rom 6:23) but since Jesus never sinned, His spirit remained alive, even though He suffered death “in the flesh” (1 Peter 3:18). Death cannot truly occur to a Spirit Being, like Jesus was and is God. The grave has no power over sinless flesh and that is why those who are Christ’s will be raised to eternal life because His righteousness is accounted to those who believe in Him.""


       Is it possible that Jesus could have raised himself if it was only his body that died? And could this explain Rev 1:18? Just putting something to think about. Ken.

      • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-22 22:00:30

        just wondering, it wasn't my assertion, I said it was from an article I found on the the internet called "What Christians Want To Know". I was always puzzled as to when Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, namely the Sons of God. Gen 6. I know there are different theories. Ken

        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-23 10:55:39

          Just wondering & Eric, - just wondering you don't have to apologize, I do agree with part of the article which is at this web address (https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-the-bible-tell-us-where-jesus-was-the-three-days-between-his-death-and-resurrection/) because I always had it in my mind that somehow after Jesus suffered the pangs of death as a human, he went on to preach to the "spirits in prison" which JW's agree with "the angels that forsook their original position "Jude 6.

          I don't believe Jesus is GOD, but he is the unique Son of God. Do we create our children or do we beget them. The article made sense to me when it said that Jesus had no sin and he didn't belong in Hades or Sheol or Tartarus whichever the one it was.

          According to Psalm 82, where GOD is having a meeting with other Son's of God (JW's don't agree with this part) GOD says that spirit beings CAN die like men.but in the above article I think the writer has put the comma in the wrong place where he mentions "Spirit Being" like Jesus.
          This is not the only Christian website that believe Jesus was alive in Spirit form during the three days.

          Eric, with respect where did Jesus say he would be dead for three days? Jonah was still alive in the belly of the BIG fish. I do appreciate the hard work you do for these articles but for an article that causes divisions, you have certainly picked the right one. - Ken

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-24 08:29:20

            Hi Ken,

            Before answering, I need to know your understanding of this. Let's forget about the time element. Does it matter whether he was dead for three days, or one day, or one hour, or one minute, or one second? The question is, do you agree he died? Not just his body with his spirit remaining alive and conscious. Was the person who was Jesus the man dead for some moment in time?

            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-24 11:43:55

              Hi Eric, To me it matters, Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that is sinning...", Jesus was without sin. John 2:19 "Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days". Either he was speaking about his fleshly body or his spiritual body which Christians can be a part of. If he was speaking about his fleshly body then he must have been alive as a Spirit Being to raise it up within the three days.

              As a human being I agree that Jesus died for our salvation, else we are without hope. Does it matter about the time period - to me yes to others It's up to them. Eric it was just something that always puzzled me. When you mentioned in your article about Jesus being dead for three days it just caused me to do some research so I thank you for that. - Ken

          • Reply by NotSure on 2022-02-24 11:29:08

            The "Jesus in hell" conversation seems a bit off topic but I'm glad it came up. I recently had to look into the topic myself after a conversation i had with some mormons. I was always under the impression that the spirits in prison were the angels that came to earth in Noah's day. I'm not sure that that explanation doesn't seem appropriate given that the similar descriptions of angels in chains/bonds/darkness in 2 Pete and Jude. It seems odd to me that Jesus would journey to these imprisoned angels just to rub it their faces, so to speak. I was surprised when I looked into the various commentaries on biblehub how little support there was for this explanation. There was one possible alterative that made some sense to me. If the phrase is translated as "spirits NOW in prison" the scripture takes on a different meaning.

            • Reply by NotSure on 2022-02-24 13:33:07

              As for translating 1 Peter 3:19 as “the spirits that are NOW in prison”, a check of Bible Study Tools online did not show a single translation with “now” inserted into any version as you suggest...

              Check the parallel renderings on biblehub, there are a few.

              Also, if you want a better explanation than I can manage, check the commentaries on the verse in question.

              The gist is of the argument is that the spirits now in prison were spirits at the time Peter was alive, but had formerly been the people that Jesus preached to through his spirit through Noah.

              Tenuous, I know. The context of the surrounding verses seems to be talking about suffering for righteousness and the consequences of disobedience. The Jesus condemning angles idea just seems kind of odd

              • Reply by NotSure on 2022-02-24 15:22:23

                Where does the Bible say that people become spirits, so that Jesus could have even “preached” to them in this way in the first place?

                Jesus preached to them, in his spirit state, through Noah, when they were living people.

                For it is better, if the will of God should so will, that ye suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing.

                Noah suffered for righteousness, the people whom he preached to suffered for unrighteousness. Now their spirits await judgement - 'in prison'. Note that I'm not making any suggestion that their spirits are conscious or suffering or anything else.

                To be clear, I did not invent this explanation nor am I married it. I simply wish to present an alternative idea for those that are interested to explore. I will say again though, I'm not sure how a detour into a story about angels in prison, never before spoken of in the old testament fits into Peter's line of reasoning.

                • Reply by NotSure on 2022-02-24 17:16:12

                  Again, JA, I did not invent this line of reasoning. If you want a more in depth look into the subject, simply search through some of the commentary on the scripture on biblehub.

                  I don't know what you think the Word of God was doing before he was revealed as Jesus but the idea that he was active in God's dealings with man is not an unheard of thought in the new testament. (Heb 11:26; Jude 5; 1 Cor 10:4; John 12:40-41)

                  As far as a soul and a spirit go, you seem to conflate the two. Is the spirit in a man personal? Maybe? (1 Cor 2:11) Does it survive the death of the body? Maybe? (Ecl 12:7)
                  I don't have a neat tidy formula to explain every scriptural reference to spirit and or soul.

                  If you think I'm lost and you are confidant in your own understanding of scripture then, very well. I am still learning. If I knew the exact correct explanation of everything contained in the Bible, I would be writing books not reading them. I'm not interested in scoring points and I do not wish to continue this discussion either.

                  Best wishes

                  • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 16:19:30

                    NotSure you have put a lot of thought and research into your comments here. but to go to the trouble of doing this research and thinking, and writing out in your comment, and then to finalize your comment with the comment:
                    "I’m not interested in scoring points, and I do not wish to continue this discussion either."
                    I find several contradictions in your words, vs scriptural principles i am aware of.
                    when you make the above statement and end it with "I do not wish to continue the discussion" you are basically making a sign that cannot be changed and hanging it for all to see, and it is dogmatic in nature, so why?
                    why not be willing to debate it to a conclusion?? Are you afraid of the potential conclusion? or are you trying to prevent a conclusion from being drawn thus settling the issue in the minds of all involved in the discussion? that would be a form of promoting "CHAOS" which only panders to the "god of confusion and lies" all and all the tenor of comments and the finality of them shows a lack or reasonableness on your part. Reasonableness is an essential quality true christians must have because its bound up in the qualities of "humility and meekness"!!
                    As christians striving to better ourselves we need to be open to change constantly in order to find the true "pearls of truth"!
                    (Matthew 13:45, 46) 45 “Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a traveling merchant seeking fine pearls. 46 Upon finding one pearl of high value, he went away and promptly sold all the things he had and bought it.
                    (2 Timothy 3:8-4:5) 8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, 11 the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in I·coʹni·um, in Lysʹtra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. 12 In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.
                    (Revelation 21:6-8) . . .To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

                    We must fight against this "turning away from truth" and restore it now! and not be afraid to do so now to the best of our abilities! Relying on Jehovah's holy spirit to guide and direct us!

                    • Reply by NotSure on 2022-03-07 12:19:52

                      You must have missed the part when justwondering told me off and said he didn't want to continue the discussion. It's difficult to understand the context of my posts on account of justwondering removing all his posts

                  • Reply by NotSure on 2022-02-24 18:35:38

                    JA was a typo. I meant JW- just wondering

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-23 06:52:42

          Hi Ken,

          My understanding is that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison during the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension. 1 Peter 3:18, 19 can be understood either as an instantaneous action or one that occurred after three days of time had passed. The time element isn't specified.

          Jesus clearly said that he would be dead for three days. Revelation 1:18 says that he was dead. God cannot die, so Jesus cannot be God. The argument that article makes is based on a supposition. It simply states that his spirit remained alive but it provides no proof of that. I think the article should be titled not "what Christians want to know", but "what Trinitarians want to believe". It makes the claim that "death cannot truly occur to a spirit being", which ignores the fact that Satan, who is a spirit is being, is put to death at the end of the thousand years.

          • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-23 16:11:51

            Eric - Does it really matter whether people believe in the trinity or not? What if they believe that the true God is YHWH and that Jesus is their saviour? Whether they be Mormons, JW's or whatever, surely GOD knows what is in their hearts!

            King David, how many mistakes did he make, yet he always knew and believed YHWH - JEHOVAH - YAHWEH was the true God.

            There is a good article by Michael S Heiser about Naaman the leper mentioned by Jesus who was a pagan who believed in Yahweh, who asked Elisha if it was Ok to still carry on his duties in his Kings pagan temple bowing down to some pagan idol. Elisha said it was fine.

            I know you are very busy trying to empty The Watchtower of its JW occupants, but the video below IS worth a watch. It's about grace and not works. Michael S Heiser is a biblical scholar who has opened my eyes to a lot of biblical truths in the OT. Although I don't agree with everthing he says not that I am any authority on anything. -Ken.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEHy1wLa0Nw

            • Reply by rudytokarz on 2022-02-23 17:57:03

              So are 'faithful' JWs, in fact all other 'false' Christians in the same boat with their beliefs? What if we all agree that we have the 'truth' on one of these topics but in fact we don't? What about those who lived before the Reformation and the only understanding was IF you knew Latin?
              Only God can say for sure.
              Most all (regardless of denomination) follow what they have been "taught from infancy" and can't see the 'truth' even though they may actually want to.
              That doesn't mean that we should not keep digging for truth but we can only do what we can with what we have (LUKE 12:35-48) and will reap the results based on that.

              Rudy

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 16:30:47

                Good point Rudy, if we love God above all other things then we will accept "the truth" for what it is, and because that full manifestation of truth will not be here until after Gods Kingdom, we need to be willing to change and align our views to Gods when they are revealed perfectly to us. "Belonging to a denomination is potentially dangerous because of "Group Think" and our desire to please members of the group over God himself

            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-23 19:38:49

              Just wondering I think I know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth, it will be when Eric stops making videos and BP's website disappears because the truth will set you free - from debate. - Ken

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 20:26:34

                Ken when you say this "Just wondering I think I know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth"
                This statement reveals much about your thinking.
                First you say, "Just Wondering" followed by a very firm judgement of what you consider to be a group when you say: " know when Beroean Pickets will have learned the Truth"?

                Are you saying "the truth" exists in a group only if they allow all opposing viewpoints to be considered and discussed by the entire group as a unit?
                this is just the way "group think" a satanic construct" successfully compromises and waters down all groups created in this system of things,
                until Jesus installs the Kingdom and Satan, and his minions are gone "groups think" is a very dangerous thing.
                so many people get compromised, by joining a group and letting the group decide things that are sacred between the individual and God only Jjesus can run that circuit not any human or group!

                when a group is formed a person lets the group think for them and have the relationship with God for them, NO GROUP OF MEN CAN DO THAT!
                This is why the first century Christian congregation (a group) eventually failed, and that was with the helper "the holy spirit that Jesus sent to allow the transition away from Judaism into Gods kingdom rule under Christ.
                remember Jesus is still away now and Satan still rules over all groups and authorities!

                Debate is an essential part of teaching and being taught except by authoritarians who demand to play God!

                Finally, the fulfillment of the "truth setting you free" will not happen until after Jesus returns the restored human family back to perfection and they are given everlasting life by eating of the "tree of life" and receiving everlasting life! from Jehovah

                • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-02 02:29:59

                  BobPfohl - All of the above. Thank you for your patience. I learned a lot in the last few days - I wish you All the Best. Thanks Eric I learned a lot from you - GOD Bless You - Ken

      • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-02-25 03:35:31

        Ken Jesus proclaimed to the spirits in prison after he was resurrected. The latter part of 1 Peter 3:18 juxtaposes "put to death in the flesh" and "made alive in the spirit"(Peter uses the conjunction δέ to denote that what he is saying about being "made alive in the spirit" is apropos being "put to death in the flesh."). "Put to death" is a reference to his crucifixion(an event), and "in the flesh" is a reference to the form he was put to death in(i.e. flesh and bones, a mortal human). "Made alive" a reference to His resurrection(an event), and "in the spirit" is a reference to the form he was resurrected in(i.e. that of a spirit being, who is not inherently flesh and bones[though capable of putting on a physical appearance]). The two events(death and resurrection) contrast each other, as do the two forms(flesh and spirit); death is the opposite of resurrection, and flesh(that which is material) is the opposite of spirit(that which is immaterial).

        Further support that "made alive" is referring to Jesus' resurrection is the fact that Peter uses ζωοποιέω to denote what happened to him when he was "made alive". ζωοποιέω refers to resurrection many times in the few times the word appears in the Greek scriptures(e.g. John 5:21, Romans 4:17, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Corinthians 15:36). Hence, when Peter says "in which he went and proclaimed to the spirit in prison", the "in which" refers to Jesus' form when he went to proclaim(that is, what form he was IN when he went to proclaim to the spirits), and that form was revealed to us in the preceding verse, i.e. the form of a spirit. Jesus received his spirit form after being resurrected(as he was "made alive in the spirit"), hence any proclamation he made in the form of a spirit must be subsequent to his resurrection. Hope that helps! Have a great day. :)

        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 08:04:50

          rajeshsony With respect, I don't understand Greek, and I barely get by with English, so I have to rely on English translations. Jesus was without sin. Jesus tasted death as a human for our salvation. Under GOD's law Jesus had no need to be in the grave because he was sinless. In John 2:19 Jesus says, “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days”. To me he was either talking about his fleshly body or his spiritual body. Later on his disciples realise he was talking about his body. Notice that it is Jesus who raises up His body not his Heavenly Father. For Him to raise up His body He must have been a Spirit Being within the three days.
          I apologise if I have got it wrong. I am sorry I started this because it has gone completely off the original topic of the trinity. Best Wishes - Ken

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-25 14:03:32

            If I could jump in here, it is true that Jesus was sinless and so would not die of sin. However, he as human and as such not immortal. He could die, or more specifically, he could be killed. The law would require a resurrection because his death would be a murder and God would have to make restitution. If God chose to leave him in the grave before resurrecting him, that would surely be God's perrogative, would it not?

            So, we know he was resurrected as a spirit because 1 Peter 3:18, 19 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us so. So we can agree on that.

            I don't follow the logic here however: "For Him to raise up His body He must have been a Spirit Being within the three days." He was resurrected by God on the third day. So from the moment of his resurrection, not within the three days, by when the three-day allotted time period was complete and God had resurrected him, he would then raise up his human body. So we have a spirit who could raise up a human body. It seems clear and unambiguous and doesn't conflict with any other scirpture, does it?

            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 14:22:51

              Eric What is your thinking on John 2:19?

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-25 14:31:26

                I find it interesting that Trinitarians get hyperliteral when it suits them and metaphorical when it doesn't.

                He literally says he will raise a body, not resurrect a body nor resurrect himself. The bible clearly says he is a life-giving spirit. So if a spirit raises a body would that not mean exactly what it says. When Jesus appears in a locked room, he was flesh. They touched him. He was not a spirit. How do we explain that without concocting a wild theory? Can we look elsewhere in scripture for spirits who can manifest themselves in the flesh?

                • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 15:22:35

                  Eric I have no problem with trinitarians. I think there is a lot that human beings don't understand. If some believe in the trinity who am I to judge them, what about if they are right. There are a lot of passages in the NT that seem to imply that Jesus is GOD. The I AM passage. Jesus before Caiaphas which sealed his fate! Caiaphas knew Jesus was saying he was GOD. I have never been a trinitarian, Maybe it was JW's who drummed it into me. I don't think it matters as long as I try to follow Jesus and that's hard enough for me as it is. - Ken

                  • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 16:05:42

                    j wondering I vaguely remember in the Greek translation of The New World Translation, it still renders it I AM. But don't tell English speaking JW's. What about Caiaphas knowing that Jesus was saying he was GOD, because the only person who was a cloud rider was YHWH or as JW's put it Jehovah's Chariot who they have a lot of trouble keeping up with - Ken

                • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 15:37:01

                  jwondering I can't remember saying Jesus resurrected himself, I said Jesus raised his own body so he must have been a Spirit Being within the three days. On the internet if you Google Jesus resurrected Jesus, they are mostly Trinitarians.It's just my belief that Jesus visited "the spirits in prison" within those three days. - Ken

                  • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-25 17:28:30

                    Glad to see someone on this forum has heard of Heiser, he produces a lot of great content. It was through him that I became convinced of the Trinity.

                    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-25 17:59:39

                      I'm not such a fan of the man.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc

                      Towards the end of this video he says this is the clincher and it is when Jesus is before Caiaphas (Matthew 26:64) and Jesus says "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven". Caiaphas knew that only YHWH is the one that rides the clouds of heaven and why he got so angry.”
                       
                      Do you see the flaw in his reasoning?
                       
                      Do a search on “sit* right hand” and you quickly find that nowhere in Scripture is YHWH shown “sitting at the right hand of power”. At whose right hand would God sit? No one’s! Caiaphas would have known that so he could not have been angry by concluding that Jesus was calling himself YHWH.
                       
                      Psalm 110:1 depicts YHWH (God) telling the Lord Jesus to sit at his right hand, so Caiaphas would have likely concluded Jesus was calling himself the Messiah. 
                       
                      Heiser also says: “Caiaphas knew that only YHWH is the one that rides the clouds of heaven”
                       
                      This is a lie. I would say he got it wrong if he were an ordinary person, but the man purports to be a bible scholar so there is no excuse for this untruth.
                       
                      “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.” (Daniel 7:13)
                       
                      The Ancient of Days is YHWH, but who is the son of man who is coming on the clouds? Not YHWH. So what Heiser says is intended to mislead his reader and support the false doctrine of the trinity.

                      • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 18:20:28

                        Eric - Matthew 19:26 - Ken

                        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 05:13:28

                          Do you mean GOD IS limited in some way?

                          • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 09:48:28

                            5 loaves + 2 Fish = 1000's of loaves + 1000's 0f Fish

                            • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 20:34:14

                              Ken, SERIOUSLY?

                            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 10:50:58

                              J wondering The Witnesses used to tell me when you are pointing the finger at someone, there's always 3 fingers pointing back at you!

                        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-26 10:29:15

                          I couldn't agree with you more, Just Wondering. I get this all the time on the YouTube forum. I think they think it is the comment equivalent of a mic drop.

                          This is another example of hyperliteralism, which actually corrupts the message of the good news in the eyes of unbelievers. Take the creationists insistence that the 6 days of creation were 24 hours days as but one example.

                          Here, it allows people to criticize the Bible as inconsistent and contradictory. If all things are possible, then it is possible for God to lie, yet the Bible says it is impossible for God to lie.

                          • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-27 06:43:44

                            Eric I agree it is impossible for GOD to lie, but it is not impossible for GOD to use a spirit being to lie - to achieve His purposes 1Kings 22:22.- Ken

                            • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-01 12:59:26

                              I'm sorry you feel that way Jw but have you only 1 translation of the Bible? I was just quoting what the Bible says. I hate to bring Heiser's name into it again but I didn't want him to suffer from your condemnation. I wasn't in anyway trying to smear GOD's name.

                              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 15:22:34

                                Sorry, Ken, but that is a poor excuse since multiple translations are available on line: biblehub.com for instance.

                                • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-01 18:00:22

                                  Eric I don't know j wonderings capabilities on the computer. I wasn't being sarcastic. I heard from the above comments that he was an old geezer. Because of this form of communication it is easy to misunderstand peoples intentions. People could write in capital letters because of poor eyesight or they may prefer writing in capitals and it could be thought that they were shouting! What's the purpose of these likes and dislike things do you think they help? I hope I haven't said anything wrong. - Ken

                              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 20:42:35

                                Ken, why do you feel you need you defend Heiser" it looks to me like he has done a great job of building up his fame and name in the "Christian" community!
                                When men need credentials from "Satan's Education system" and make themselves the center of attention other than Jesus, how can you follow such a man?
                                More importantly why would anyone looking to worship the great God Jehovah WANT TO HAVE A HUMAN TEACHER other than Christ himself?

                                Ken, do you believe in the trinity?

                            • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-01 10:47:52

                              JW - Didn't GOD give permission to Satan to test Job? How can I post a comment without drawing attention to myself? - Ken

                              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 15:23:03

                                I think you have missed Just Wondering's point.

                              • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-01 17:44:48

                                J wondering I apologise sincerely - I beg your pardon - Ken

                      • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-25 19:40:05

                        Isn't this one of Eric's ad hominem attacks? John 10:33. The Jews seemed to think Jesus was claiming to be God.

                        • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 20:45:03

                          Did they really believe that or were they just upset that Jesus was a threat to their power they developed with their group of men?

                        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-26 09:49:02

                          If you look at John 10:33 up in the interlinear, you will see that once again Trinitarian bias is at play. There is no definite article in front of the Greek word for God. No Jew would think that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh. Ho Theos, the God. Even today we have languages that don't have an indefinite article. There are rules when translating Greek to guide translator so that he inserts the indefinite article when called for and removes the definite article when called for.

                          We would never render John 1:1 in English, "In the beginning was the God" because we have made the noun "god" into a proper noun (a named noun) which is why we write it with an initial capital. Greek did not have this convention.

                          Actually, if anything, John 10:33 adds weight to the evidence that the Jews were not monotheistic.

                          An ad hominem attack is an attack made against the person when one cannot defeat the argument. The idea is to draw attention away from the argument. I attacked and defeated the argument, so by also exposing the man's hypocrisy I was not engaging in an ad hominem attack. A good example of this is Jesus Christ who attacked the false leaders of his day vehemently calling them hypocrites, liars, whitewashed graves, and the offspring of vipers. He easily defeated their arguments, but he needed to do more. For the sake of his listeners he needed to expose them for the men they truly were. We have to remember that the ministers of Satan dress themselves in cloaks of righteousness.

                        • Reply by Fani on 2022-02-26 15:26:13

                          On ne peut pas citer des versets en les sortant de leur contexte.
                          Qu'à répondu Christ à Jean 10 : 33 ?

                          35/36 "S'il est vrai qu'elle a appelé dieux ceux à qui la parole de Dieu a été adressée et si l'Ecriture ne peut pas être annulée, 36 comment pouvez-vous dire à celui que le Père a consacré et envoyé dans le monde: ‘Tu blasphèmes’, et cela parce que j'ai affirmé: ‘Je SUIS LE FILS DE DIEU ?"

                          Christ dit :
                          1 - il n'aurait pas été faux de dire qu'il était un dieu en raison de son autorité et sa nature parfaite puisque même des hommes imparfaits ont été appelés dieux
                          2 - il n'a pas dit qu'il était Dieu mais FILS de Dieu

                          Pouvons nous nous baser sur la compréhension des juifs pour comprendre qui était Jésus ?
                          Ils ont prétendu qu'il avait fait ses miracles grâce à la puissance de Beelzebub !
                          Avaient ils une bonne connaissance ? Sûrement pas. Pourquoi ? Parce que c'est l'Esprit du Père qui nous éclaire. Or ils n'avaient pas cet Esprit.
                          Lorsque Jésus a demandé à ses disciples qui il était, Simon Pierre répondit: «Tu es le Messie, le Fils du Dieu vivant.» 17 Jésus reprit la parole et lui dit: «Tu es heureux, Simon, fils de Jonas, car CE N'EST PAS UNE PENSÉE HUMAINE qui t'a révélé cela, mais c'est MON PERE CÉLESTE”. Mathieu 16
                          A contrario certains disaient qu'Il était Élie, Jean Baptiste, Jérémie ou d'autres prophètes. Ils n'avaient pas l'esprit de Dieu, ils étaient des aveugles et des sourds qui ne comprenaient rien.

                          Donc on ne va pas se baser sur ce que comprenaient les Juifs ou Caiphe !

                          YHWH était le Dieu de Christ et non l'inverse.

                          Même une fois ressuscité, Christ dit : Révélation 3 : 12 "Du vainqueur je ferai un pilier dans le temple de MON DIEU, et il n'en sortira plus jamais. J'écrirai sur lui le nom de MON DIEU, celui de la ville de MON DIEU, la nouvelle Jérusalem qui descend du ciel, d'auprès de mon Dieu".

                          YHWH n'a jamais dit que Christ était son Dieu.
                          Même si Christ peut être légalement qualifié de Dieu, il n'est pas YHWH. Il lui est subordonné puisqu'il est son Dieu.
                          Mais je répète : Christ n'a jamais été mentionné comme étant le Dieu de YHWH.
                          Il y a bien 2 êtres en 2 positions différentes.

                          Je voudrais rajouter que le contexte n'est pas seulement les versets qui précèdent et suivent une déclaration mais l'ensemble de tout ce qu'a dit une personne (entre autres).

                          Merci à tous de vos commentaires et merci à Eric pour son travail.

                          • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 16:38:43

                            Fani - It was the Jews that were saying Jesus was claiming to be God, not me. The question is, is Jesus a part of a trinity? There are scriptures in the old testament that seem to indicate that this is a possibility. I don't dismiss that this is a possibility. I have an open mind to other peoples opinions. I know Jesus is the Son of God. The body of Christ is made up of many members. How do I understand that? How do you understand that? I am just searching for the truth. Thank you for your comment - Ken

                      • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-02-26 02:54:20

                        Anyone who is both accepting and propounding a falsehood is by definition a liar.

                        Not exactly. It depends on whether the person knows that what they accept(and proport) is in fact a falsehood. Saying a falsehood doesn't necessarily make you a liar. Saying a falsehood when you know it's a falsehood makes you a liar. A "lie" is defined by Merriam-Webster as an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive. Google dictionary defines a lie as an intentionally false statement. Dictionary.com defines a lie as a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth. Cambridge dictionary defines a lie as something you say that you know is not true. If you travelled back in time 800 years and asked a person whether the sun revolves around the earth, if they tell you yes that's not them lying to you(even though it would be untrue); it's them not knowing any better. Humans tell falsehoods out of ignorance constantly; we can't help it! Ignorance is part of our human nature, and there's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing we can do about lying either(that is to say, it's impossible to be an imperfect human and never lie), though more so with regards to telling falsehoods out of ignorance.

                        The point is, telling a falsehood does not in and of itself make you a liar; telling a falsehood when you know otherwise DOES make you a liar.

                        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 05:37:43

                          All Heiser was saying is that it is possible for GOD to be in more than one place or person at one time else there are scriptures in the OT that make no sense at all. If someone disagrees with Eric's preconceived ideas then he must be a liar.

                          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-26 09:52:09

                            Now that is a good example of an ad hominem attack. You haven't proven your point at all. You just made a statement – shared an the opinion. Are you now saying that Heiser is not a Trinitarian?

                            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-26 10:15:38

                              Eric I do agree with you "that the ministers of Satan dress themselves in cloaks of righteousness" and I agree that Michael Heiser is a Trinitarian - Ken

                      • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-26 06:42:39

                        I certainly see the flaw in your reasoning.

                        First off we need to look at the wider context of the term "cloud rider" in the ancient near east. Ugarit was Israel's close northern neighbour, and they share much vocabulary and imagery. In the Ugaritic texts, the god Baal is called “the one who rides the clouds.” The description became an official title of Baal , whom the entire ancient near eastern world considered a deity of rank. To ancient people all over the Mediterranean, Israelite or not, the “one who rides the clouds” was a deity— his status as a god was unquestioned. Therefore, any figure to whom the title was attributed was a god. Old Testament writers were quite familiar with Baal. Baal was the main source of consternation about Israel’s propensity toward idolatry. In an effort to make the point that Yahweh, the God of Israel, deserved worship instead of Baal, the biblical writers occasionally stole this stock description of Baal as “cloud rider” and assigned it to Yahweh.
                        Here are some examples:
                        There is no one like God, O, Jeshurun, who rides through the heavens to your help, and with his majesty through the skies (Deut 33: 26).
                        O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God ; sing praise to the Lord, Selah, to the one who rides in the highest heavens of old. See, he gives forth his voice, a mighty voice (Psa 68: 32– 33).
                        Bless Yahweh, O my soul. O Yahweh my God, you are very great. You clothe yourself with splendor and majesty, you who cover yourself with light as with a garment, who stretch out the heavens like a tent curtain, the one who sets beams in the waters for his upper chambers, who makes clouds his chariot, who rides on the wings of the wind (Psa 104: 1– 4).
                        An oracle of Egypt: Look! Yahweh is riding on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. And the idols of Egypt will tremble in front of him, and the heart of Egypt melts in his inner parts (Isa 19: 1).
                        The literary tactic made a theological statement. The effect was to “displace” or snub Baal and hold up Yahweh as the deity who legitimately rode through the heavens surveying and governing the world.
                        The lone exception to the pattern of using this unambiguous deity title of the God of Israel is Daniel 7: 13. There a second figure— a human figure—receives this description. The description was known across the ancient world as Baal’s. No one questioned Baal’s deity status. Daniel 7 therefore describes two powers in heaven— two Yahweh figures, since , in all other places in the Old Testament , Yahweh is the cloud rider. This is also expressed in numerous targums where ancient rabbis viewed Daniel 7 as messianic and that that messiah was Yahweh, drawing on the mainstream Jewish idea of "two powers in heaven".

                        There's been much recent scholarly research done on "two powers in heaven theology", anyone who still thinks that some gentile Christians made it up are quite wrong. Although, I suppose your much more modern interpretation without any relevant ancient context is more likely.

                        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-26 10:13:58

                          Hi copper,

                          if the point you are trying to make is that the Israelites were not monotheistic as Trinitarians claim, then I completely agree. The Bible teaches that YHWH is the supreme God, power above all other powers, the source of all life. But it does not deny the existence of other gods whether they be unrighteous or righteous, false or true. The problem many face in trying to understand God is one of degree. They're trying to put God inside the same box they put all other gods. They're trying to measure God with the same yardstick they used to measure all other gods.

                          Yahweh is infinite in every sense of the word. No other God is.

                          Nevertheless, Yahweh knows that we are finite creatures and so in instructing us about his person, he uses analogies that are comparative because that's all we can cope with.

                          The Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God when he said that he was God's son. (John 5:18) They didn't accuse him of being God. Heiser is reading meaning into the account of Jesus trial which just isn't there.

                          Trinitarians don't teach that Jesus is equal with God. They teach that Jesus is God.. To be equal requires multiple components, or at least two separate components. A = B. What Trinitarians teach is A is not equal to B, but that A is B.

                          • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-27 07:08:57

                            Hello Meleti Vivlon,

                            No I'm not referring to divine plurality, although I am in agreement with you that the ancient Israelites were not monotheistic, but were closer to henotheistic in their beliefs.
                            I put this question to you: why were the Jews constantly trying to stone Jesus to death for blasphemy for claiming to be God's Son? It was because the title "The Son of God" by Jesus time was a common title for the coming davidic messiah, and consequently was seen as the second Yahweh figure. In Israelite law the only form of blasphemy which was punishable by death is blaspheming the name of Yahweh. Examples of Jews attempting to kill Jesus include:
                            This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
                            John 5:18
                            Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
                            John 8:58-59
                            The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
                            John 10:31-33
                            But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”
                            Matt 26:63-68

                            All of these incidents have one thing in common, Jesus claims a messianic title (or in John 8:58 a title for Yahweh, not surprising in light of the Jewish idea of the messiah being the angel of Yahweh) and the Jews see this as a man claiming to be God himself, and consequently try to stone him for blaspheming God's name. The trial with Caiaphas is particularly illuminating, as Caiaphas puts Jesus under oath to tell the truth about whether or not he's the Son of God, as this would be enough to have him killed for blasphemy, but Jesus goes even further in applying two more messianic verses to himself, for which the Jews charge him with blasphemy and lead him away for his impending death.

                            I take it that your answer to my verses about Yahweh being the cloud rider was that Jesus is "a" god but not God himself? Fairly incoherent, as you yourself noted that the Jews believed in many elohim, but Yahweh was above all other elohim and exceedingly unique. He's infinite. No other elohim can be equal to him except himself. The Jewish writers never applied the cloud rider title to other elohim, as it designated the ruler of all, the king of the gods. They specifically took it away from another elohim(Baal) to express this point.
                            And yes, the Jews did accuse Jesus of claiming to be God. John 10:33 comes to mind, but I see that you prefer a manipulated text to support your non-trinitarian beliefs.

                            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-27 09:15:06

                              Hi Cooper,

                              I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but perhaps I can help by pointing out your reasoning needs to start with an accurate translation of John 10. I've provided one below which I believe better reflects the context of that encounter between Jesus and the religious leaders:

                              “31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:31-36 NWT)
                              Also, John 8:58 is an often misapplied verse. It doesn't prove Jesus is Yahweh at all. I won't spend time on it here as I'll be devoting another video to the topic soon.

                              • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-27 10:44:03

                                Eric You are doing your best to separate the Word from GOD, The body of Christ has many members all entitled to be called Christians, The Godhead has three members. all entitled to bear the Divine Name. That's my understanding. - The word Trinity turns people off right away because of it's association with the Catholic Church if you have been a JW. - Ken

                                • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 16:33:16

                                  ken that's "pure Orthodoxy"

                                • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-02-27 17:47:24

                                  I just want to remind everyone that if you prove that Jesus is God, you have NOT necessarily proved the Trinity. You have, at the very least, proved a duality. People seem to forget this all the time. They focus so hard on proving the divinity of Christ, and all because they think that'll verify the Trinity doctrine. But that not need be the case. And this goes for those on the other side as well; if someone proves the divinity of Christ to you, you are not forced to accept the Trinity. Many people think that is the case, but it is not. But why? Because the divinity of Christ is not the sole tenet of the Trinity doctrine. One other fundamental tenet is BOTH the personhood AND divinity of the Holy Spirit. If one has not proved the personhood and divinity of the Holy Spirit, you are not in any way whatsoever forced to accept the Trinity doctrine(which relies on the personhood and divinity of the Holy Spirit).

                                  So if any Trinitarians here are in pursuit to prove their doctrine, their going to have to do much more than debate the divinity of Christ; they'll also have to debate the personhood AND divinity of the Holy Spirit. It is entirely possible to believe that both God and Jesus are divine persons without believing that the Holy Spirit is a divine person. Just want to make sure everyone remembers that.

                                  Have a wonderful day everyone! :)

                                  • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-27 18:57:35

                                    rajeshsony With the greatest respect I only said it was my understanding. I prefer not to call it the Trinity now but you are free to call it what you want. There is no question about the Divinity of Christ. But I think there are a lot of misconceptions floating around that's made it hard to get the grips on what the "trinity" is. What about if Jesus is not the Almighty, did he ever claim to be? But he still has the right to bear the Divine Name. As for The Holy Spirit. If it's GOD's Holy Spirit then it must be a part of Him also! - Ken

                                    • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-02-28 00:29:37

                                      I agree that the Spirit is a part of God, but the reasoning you used to reach that conclusion is not sound. One can very easily possess something without it being an integral part of their nature. For example, I own a dog... People would call it Rajesh's dog. But that dog is not intrinsic to my nature, despite my owning it. But, once again, I agree that God's Spirit is a part of Him.

                                      Have a good day. :)

                                      • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-28 05:26:03

                                        rajeshsony - I thought we were having an intelligent discussion here, are you suggesting that there might be dogs in the body of Christ called Christians? - My understanding is that the Three members of the Godhead are all of the same Nature hence all entitled to bear the Divine Name. Jesus is unique, the Holy Spirit is unique, and YHWH is unique according to Heiser and a lot of other scholars the meaning of monogenesis not "only begotten" - Ken

                                        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-28 06:49:53

                                          I should have said monogenes not monogenesis. I beg yor pardon.. Here is an article from a website subtitled "Jesus as Monogenes"

                                          "The history of the interpretation of this word is quite fascinating. Prior to and during New Testament times the word clearly meant something like "unique" or "only." However, quite fascinatingly, and without warrant, the meaning was changed to "only begotten" in the early Christian centuries. The distortion of the word in the Latin Vulgate and the subsequent perpetuation of the error in the King James Version of 1611 A.D. make fascinating reading. It might appear that we have all the ingredients for a fictional thriller here but we are not dealing with fiction and the material we need to review is too much of a serious nature to be considered as suitable for a thriller. All that I have said is elaborated on in this paper so please read on."

                                          https://thetrinitydoctrine.com/articles/jesus-as-monogenes/

                                          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-28 09:49:36

                                            So you would have us believe that YHWH, wanting to help his human children and choosing the metaphor of a father son relationship and then calling his son the only one, would expect his children to disregard the fact that every son is begotten?

                                            • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-28 11:45:06

                                              Eric It's not up to me to have you believe anything. It was you who throwed down the challenge for somebody to explain or to try to explain the Trinity. You know yourself it's not easy to explain. I'm just going by what other people are saying. I wasn't a Trinitarian. I just remembered that Michael Heiser had said something about the Two Powers in Heaven years ago. It never bothered me about the the Trinity. Like Cooper I don't think understanding the Trinity is necessary for salvation. I think God's Grace and love are more important! What did Jesus say at John 3:12. Maybe I'm taking that out of context. What if we as humans get something wrong are we doomed to destruction? Best Wishes Ken

                                              • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-28 17:30:50

                                                Hi Ken
                                                It seems that many who are no longer part of the organisation still maintain a very rigid belief system. John 3:16 sums up our salvation in believing in Christ. Of course the term believing means more then simply believing that he existed. We must put faith and appreciation in his sacrifice, which includes behaving in the way Jesus instructed us. I see Meleti Vivlon started naming belief systems and asking which ones will lead to the practitioner being saved. To my knowledge the only one that wouldn't qualify is Gnosticism as they reject that Christ's death had any value to atone for our sins, but instead value the knowledge he imparted. Even then it's up to God to judge them, not us.
                                                God bless you brother!

                                              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-28 12:11:57

                                                You Write: "I don’t think understanding the Trinity is necessary for salvation."

                                                Would you be of the opinion that we can believe any one of the following theologies and still be saved to be with Christ as kings and priests in the kingdom of the heavens?

                                                Trinitarianism?
                                                Arianism?
                                                Socinianism?
                                                Gnosticism?

                                                • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-28 12:39:05

                                                  Eric I'm an earthly bloke, from the time I saw my first butterfly and flower I fell in love with God's creation. I've been a sinner right up to the present moment. I don't understand heavenly things. If GOD allows me to be resurrected on earth through Jesus' work on the cross then that's enough for me. - Best Wishes - Ken.

                                                  • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 01:23:06

                                                    Ken simple question, how much of "Christian Orthodoxy" do you subscribe to?
                                                    Ken?
                                                    Ken?
                                                    KEN?

                                                    Funny how they all use what I call "NPR Radio/Love" approach to try to jamb these doctrine's down people's throats and then when really pushed on the subject they "flutter away"?
                                                    what I find is a mock humility, and a total lack of openness to learn anything truthful!

                                                    these people from Orthodoxy seem to be all hanging out thinking they can subvert every Christian who falls out of the JW Organization, they fail to realize that so many are now being guided by Holy spirit out and on to a better line of thinking and reasoning.

                                                    they don't really understand truth and don't want to

                                                    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 07:26:57

                                                      Good to have you with us, BobPfohl

                                        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-28 09:41:23

                                          If YHWH is the name of the Father and Jesus is the name of the son, what is the name given all three as the trinity and what is the name of the holy spirit?

                                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-27 21:00:13

                                    A valid point often overlooked in discussions. Thanks.

                              • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-27 20:15:42

                                I see that even though you've removed yourself from the organization, some of their doctrines are still dear to you. That's fine, the important thing is that we both managed to get out from under the GB's grip. For the record I don't think belief (or unbelief) in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, but I think it's unnecessary to refer to an evangelical biblical scholar as a liar just because he teaches a doctrine you don't believe. I would heartily recommend Alan F. Segals "Two Powers in Heaven", it's still the finest scholarly work available today for tracing the idea of what would become the Trinity doctrine back into the second temple period and into the OT, where it originated.
                                God bless you brother!

                                • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 16:48:38

                                  Cooper: its a false assumption on the part of all the "orthodox Christians" trolling here to conclude that just because a person left "the organization" (of JWS) that they desire or should return to "Christian orthodoxy"!!!
                                  to the contrary, genuine Christians are led by gods spirit to progress out of both "orthodoxy and the JW Organization" to continue progressing away from the great apostasy and towards aligning their thinking towards Jesus kingdom, soon to be here!

                                  this means progressing beyond the "Group think" that entraps both groups!!

                                  (2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?

                                  (Acts 21:20-25) 20 After hearing this, they began to glorify God, but they said to him: “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or to follow the customary practices. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? They are certainly going to hear that you have arrived. 23 So do what we tell you: We have four men who have put themselves under a vow. 24 Take these men with you and cleanse yourself ceremonially together with them and take care of their expenses, so that they may have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to the rumors they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly and you are also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent them our decision in writing that they should keep away from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

                                  (Daniel 11:32) 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. . . .

                                  (Jeremiah 23:15) 15 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says against the prophets: “Here I am making them eat wormwood And giving them poisoned water to drink. For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has spread throughout the land.”

                                  (Isaiah 32:6) 6 For the senseless one will speak nonsense, And his heart will devise harmful things, To promote apostasy and to speak what is wayward against Jehovah, To cause the hungry one to go unfed And to deprive the thirsty one of something to drink.

                                • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-27 21:00:59

                                  Cooper, do you believe all the teachings of the organization are false?

                                  • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-28 16:16:09

                                    I believe that any teachings of theirs which are based on faulty interpretation of scripture, eg interpreting with no regard for the original cultural context, are false. I also believe that any doctrines they hold which they must prop up by misquoting experts, hiding evidence, and outright lying are also false. 1914 comes to mind.

                                    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-28 19:15:53

                                      I agree, but that would also mean that the Trinity is false since it relies on a faulty interpretation of Scripture.

                                      • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-01 12:26:54

                                        That's your opinion, but where's the evidence? I've cited numerous scriptures, second temple writings and a few targums to prove my point, which is that there was a basic trinitarian theological framework in existence long before Christ, a position now held by many modern scholars. You're relying on an outdated scholarly opinion from the early 20th century when scholars didn't yet have access to many of these writings, and certainly didn't understand the cultural context that they were written in. Consequently today we are in a much better position to understand what was believed by ancient Jews.

                                        Just so we're clear, I do really appreciate what you do here. Far too many JW's turn atheist or agnostic after leaving the organisation, the ex-jw reddit community is a sad reminder of that. The fact that you have provided for many of them a safe haven of sorts to clear their heads and focus on finding real truth is truly commendable.

                                        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 15:29:18

                                          I'm unclear about what you are referring to when you write that I'm relying "an outdated scholarly opinion from the early 20th century". You're replying to a comment that quotes no scholarly opinion at all. Here's the text of the comment you are replying to:

                                          I agree, but that would also mean that the Trinity is false since it relies on a faulty interpretation of Scripture.

                                          • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-03 12:12:06

                                            I'm referring to the interviews you had with James Penton regarding the Trinity, the first of which had the following view to offer: "But from what you’re telling me, there is no evidence in the Bible, nor in the history of the nation of Israel prior to Christ, nor any community of Christianity up to the 3rd century of any clear indication of a Trinity." Penton then agrees with your statement. This seems to be the framework you work off of in every Trinity article of yours I've read, and seeing as it's your website I think people here should understand what I meant by "your opinion". Although that view was once the standard in academia, it is now not so one sided. More recent biblical scholarship has revealed that the beliefs of ancient Jews were markedly different from modern day rabbinical Judaism, and many beliefs thought to be Christian inventions were in fact inherited from Judaism.
                                            I doubt I'll be commenting here anymore as I feel I've laid out a decent amount of arguments and citations. Anyone interested can read them in my previous posts, and frankly I'm too busy to continue searching through books and pdf's to find specific quotations. If your readers are interested in the topic I'd recommend these sources to check out regarding early Christian/Judaic beliefs about God and his Messiah:
                                            "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan F. Segal
                                            "Who did Jesus Think He Was?" by J. C. O'Neill
                                            "The Angel of the Lord" by Matt Foreman and Doug Van Dorn
                                            "The Religion of the Apostles" by Stephen De Young
                                            "Brief Insights on Mastering Bible Doctrine" by Michael S. Heiser
                                            "The Messiah's Portrait in the Tanakh" by Michael S. Heiser
                                            "Jesus: The Incarnation of The Word" by David C. Mitchell
                                            I would also recommend Heiser's work "The Unseen Realm" as it's very thorough at explaining what the writers of the Bible were trying to get across to their audience. Finally I think everyone should read David C. Mitchell's scholarly work "Messiah Ben Joseph" as it does an excellent job showing the variety of beliefs the first century Jews held about the Messiah, including the expectation of a suffering messiah. God bless you brother.

                                        • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 00:49:22

                                          Cooper "Truth is truth" and if you want to rely on the thinking of "men with letters" to reason for you to prove something as clear as the trinity's origin, and to try to build small fragments of it being part of Jewish thinking from the past, then that's on you, if you study both the scriptures and secular historical writings, the Trinity doctrine came thru Nimrod and Babylon, not from the "kabala's of the ancient jews", it was clearly introduced into the apostate Christian organization after the death of John, and then fully accepted and pushed by good old St Nick himself! by this time Christianity was no longer about Jehovah, the restoration of mankind thru Christ blood sacrifice, but about a satanic construct that now replaced Jehovah the true God with a cheap forged idle, this is what the leaders of the church and the sheep wanted!
                                          Any who resisted were heavy persecuted! by the thug leaders of that church!

                                          • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-03 05:11:04

                                            You still subscribe to the ideas of Alexander Hislop? He literally made all that up. His theories were based on nothing credible, mostly his imagination. Even the organisation doesn't cite him anymore. I'm afraid you've been misled by a man of letters yourself.

                                            • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 16:52:31

                                              lol "He literally made all that up" and with such a statement (a lie) you negate all that historical documentation!!! lol its clear to see where your heart/mind is!

                                              • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-05 04:31:43

                                                Historical documentation?? I doubt you looked into the topic too deeply, otherwise you wouldn't be making such claims. Thanks for indirectly calling me a liar. I'll do you the service of not returning the insult brother, as it seems to me that you truly do believe that the Trinity came from Nimrod. I will say that I feel you're misguided, and I hope that you do one day "come to an accurate knowledge of truth" to quote our old JW brethren. God bless you BobPfohl.

                                • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-02-28 00:53:21

                                  cooper I don't really understand how the TWO powers in Heaven theory supports the Trinity. Wouldn't it oppose the Trinity? If the Trinity were true, wouldn't it be THREE powers in Heaven? The Trinity asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all co-equal and co-eternal, meaning that none of them have a beginning(each is uncreated) AND that each is the same in terms of power and authority. If such a notion were true, wouldn't we see it reflected in, oh I don't know, God's word the Bible? If the notion of a God who is "1 essence, 3 co-equal and co-eternal persons" is true, wouldn't that be made manifest in the Bible? But it isn't; not at all. In that regard, a duality fares much better than a trinity, and the fact that it's a "two powers in heaven" theory and not a "three powers in heaven" theory substantiates that.

                                  I honestly feel like people spend way too much time on proving the divinity of Christ and way too little time in proving (1) the personhood of the Holy Spirit and (2) the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Proving that Christ is deity is not proving the Trinity! It's just not. Trinitarians should focus more on the Holy Spirit, as therein lies their weak spot.

                                  • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-28 17:04:13

                                    Hello rajeshsony
                                    The Jews of Jesus day held many differing views of how exactly God operates. The "two powers" motif was just one such one, and is one for which we have extant manuscripts for it being termed that way. There are other writings which preserve other traditions showing that many Jews held to a "three in one" theological framework. Philo records such traditions, as does Origen which he learned from his Hebrew master.

                                    The ascension of Isaiah, a document which has close affinities with the Qumran documents, opens with the words of Isaiah to Hezekiah using a trinitarian formula: "As the Lord lives whose name has not been transmitted to the world, and as the Beloved of my Lord lives, and as the Spirit which speaks in me lives... In the sixth heaven they are all named: the primal Father and his Beloved Christ, and the Holy Spirit; all with one voice" (8:18; cf. 7.23; 10.6).
                                    Ethiopian Enoch (1 Enoch) chapters 45-71 is another proof of trinitarian beliefs among the Jews.
                                    In light of these texts, it makes sense why many verses in the OT and NT speak of the Holy Spirit in terms of being a person and as God. Job 33:4, Psalm 139:7, and Isaiah 63:10 all refer to the Holy Spirit as God, and the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as an individual person like the Father and the Son. For example, the Spirit is characterized as a being who acts with intentionality, can communicate, who possesses and transmits knowledge, and who makes decisions (e.g., 1 Sam. 16:14; Ezek. 2:2; Acts 8:29; 10:19; 20:22; John 14:26; 1 Cor. 12:11). The Holy Spirit is also said to be affected by other persons, namely us. He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30), he can be stifled (1 Thess. 5:19), and resisted (Acts 7:51). He is not assigned to us by God the Father against his will, rather he is our personal helper, guide, and advocate (John 14:16–17, 26; 15:26; Rom. 8:26–27).The Holy Spirit is also linked to Jesus in much the same way as he is to the Father. First look at Acts 16:6–7. In verse 6, Luke makes the comment that Paul and Timothy were “forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.” In the very next verse the Holy Spirit, who is always associated with the Spirit of God in the Old Testament, is referred to as “the Spirit of Jesus.” This phrase simultaneously equates Jesus with God and the Spirit with Jesus (who is God, the angel of his presence). Paul is even more explicit in this regard. The following passages clearly identify the Spirit and Jesus: Phil 1:19, Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, 2 Cor 3: 17-18.
                                    The importance of this phenomenon should not be undervalued. It shows that the deity of the Holy Spirit is a doctrine based on more than pronouns (i.e., referring to the Spirit as a person; e.g., 1 Cor. 11:12) and the sporadic interchange of the Spirit with God (Acts 5:3–4). Rather, as Jesus and the Father are identified with each other, so the Spirit and Jesus are identified with each other. Since Jesus is the point of reference in both identifications, and since the Father, Son, and the Spirit are elsewhere distinguished (e.g., Matt. 28:19–20; 2 Cor. 13:14), the resulting theology is that God exists in three persons who share the same identity or essence. The scriptural coidentification of God, Jesus, and the Spirit are what produce Trinitarianism. The doctrine is therefore neither a guess nor the contrivance of later church history, it’s scripturally grounded.

                                    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 15:36:02

                                      I'm getting the impression that for a trinitarian, any mention of the three in a single verse supports the entirety of their doctrine. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are all mentioned in the same verse and they all share the same nature, ergo, a Trinity.

                                      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 15:48:50

                                        I believe the first real Trinity was made up of the first 3 rebels against Jehovah, and that was Satan, Eve, and Adam, that was the first trinity!

          • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 16:25:47

            "For Him to raise up His body He must have been a Spirit Being within the three days." why do you understand John 2:19 the way you do?

    • Reply by sincerelyours on 2022-02-26 17:02:58

      Meleti Vivlon,
      I'm still trying to wrap my head around how those who used to be jdubs, are still spiritually minded and believe in God are then turning around and adopting Christendom's theory of trinity. In my mind, it's the equivalent of dropping a bad boyfriend just to pick up a rebound without even really knowing who he is. You'd think someone walking away from false doctrine wouldn't be so eager to pick up another plate and not really examine all the ingredients first. How does this even happen?

      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 17:40:38

        sincerelyours, If a genuine truth seeker, a person, is a Jehovah's witness because they believe that "Gods truth" is found only within the confines of that human organization's boundaries, and then is confronted with the possibility that that is not true, then they have a difficult decision to make, it then test them as to how genuine there love for God really is vs love for self or others (group).
        so many love the group think over God, and when "disfellowshipped from JWS" they look for Group acceptance rather than realizing the real Gift from God in being thrown out of that false group, so they prove that its not about love for God for them its about Love for group or self and they will accept any false teaching just to be accepted by the group!
        (John 15:17-27) 17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me also hates my Father. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have both seen me and hated me as well as my Father. 25 But this happened in order to fulfill the word written in their Law: ‘They hated me without cause.’ 26 When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
        Analyzing and meditating on this passage can be helpful in sorting some of this out in our minds.

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 19:37:01

          BobPfohl,
          These thoughts and reasoning from the Scriptures are brilliant. I'm going to pilfer them shamelessly for the final video in the trinity series. ?

          • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 00:11:28

            There is no shame in us collaborating together, I'm a big believer in Synergy, and when you throw in Gods holy spirit much good can be accomplished!
            i have so many things I want to eventually share with you and others gathered here!
            We can boast in the Good news of truth:
            (1 Corinthians 9:15-18) 15 But I have not made use of a single one of these [provisions]. Indeed, I have not written these things that it should become so in my case, for it would be finer for me to die than—no man is going to make my reason for boasting void! 16 If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe is me if I did not declare the good news! 17 If I perform this willingly, I have a reward; but if I do it against my will, all the same I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What, then, is my reward? That while declaring the good news I may furnish the good news without cost, to the end that I may not abuse my authority in the good news.
            (2 Corinthians 10:1-18) . . .Now I myself, Paul, entreat YOU by the mildness and kindness of the Christ, lowly though I am in appearance among YOU, whereas when absent I am bold toward YOU. 2 Indeed I beg that, when present, I may not use boldness with that confidence with which I am counting on taking bold measures against some who appraise us as if we walked according to [what we are in the] flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 6 and we are holding ourselves in readiness to inflict punishment for every disobedience, as soon as YOUR own obedience has been fully carried out. 7 YOU look at things according to their face value. If anyone trusts in himself that he belongs to Christ, let him again take this fact into account for himself, that, just as he belongs to Christ, so do we also. 8 For even if I should boast a bit too much about the authority that the Lord gave us to build YOU up and not to tear YOU down, I would not be put to shame, 9 that I may not seem to want to terrify YOU by [my] letters. 10 For, say they: “[His] letters are weighty and forceful, but [his] presence in person is weak and [his] speech contemptible.” 11 Let such a man take this into account, that what we are in our word by letters when absent, such we shall also be in action when present. 12 For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding. 13 For our part we will boast, not outside our assigned boundaries, but according to the boundary of the territory that God apportioned to us by measure, making it reach even as far as YOU. 14 Really we are not overstretching ourselves as if we did not reach to YOU, for we were the first to come even as far as YOU in declaring the good news about the Christ. 15 No, we are not boasting outside our assigned boundaries in the labors of someone else, but we entertain hope that, as YOUR faith is being increased, we may be made great among YOU with reference to our territory. Then we will abound still more, 16 to declare the good news to the countries beyond YOU, so as not to boast in someone else’s territory where things are already prepared. 17 “But he that boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.” 18 For not the one who recommends himself is approved, but the man whom Jehovah recommends.
            
            All I have comes from Jehovah and I wish only to reason with accurate truth and share with others that that reasoning

        • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-03 10:17:23

          While the Beroean Picket Bible & Tract Society are arguing amongst themselves, the madmen who run the world are trying to figure out which cities they are going to drop their nukes on!!

          • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-03 19:37:23

            Ken, what you call "Arguing amongst themselves" as if it's a "bad thing" to have a "constructive theocratic discussion" scripture defines as a process necessary for men who are united in having the goal of finding the truth to be able to meet and discuss and to allow "Holy spirit" to guide them to a proper consensus!
            instead, you try to disrupt that process with a "satanic war" diversion that "genuine Christians" should stay away from!

            We trust our Great God Jehovah and his Son, that they will make sure his will and purpose will take place right on schedule and even if we happen to become victims of "satanic war schemes" and "the World beastly authorities fighting amongst themselves" in the end we will receive salvation and eventually some form of "Everlasting Life" as promised!
            we fully trust in our God Jehovah and his Sons Kingdom arrangement as our eventual path to full salvation.

            you on the other hand seem upset that you cannot direct the thinking of the individuals commenting here to your "Orthodox thinking"!!??

            So you show yourself to be "a resistor" to this flow of Gods Spirit??

            Ken, salvation comes to those who find the truth and obey it, not to individuals who try to please the majority of individuals around them!

            to those who put up a firm fight for the faith. (1 Timothy 6:11, 12) 11 However, you, O man of God, flee from these things. But pursue righteousness, godly devotion, faith, love, endurance, and mildness. 12 Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses.
            (Ephesians 6:10-13) 10 Finally, go on acquiring power in the Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 15:14:23

            Why would you speak so disparagingly of us?

            • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-04 10:09:41

              Eric - Why do you speak so disparagingly of the leaders of the WBTS even though it might be thinly veiled. Why are you censuring me? Are you using an ip logger? Why is everybody using aliases? What is it they are frightened of? Matthew 10:37. - Ken

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-04 10:41:39

                So my question was to ask you why you speak disparagingly of us and your answer was to hurl more disparaging accusations???

                If you are not happy here, why do you continue to come?

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-04 16:23:28

                1) I do so for the same reason that Jesus spoke disparagingly of the religious leaders of his day. Do you have a problem with that?
                2) Do you believe censuring someone is always wrong?
                3) I'm not sure what an IP logger is, but I don't use one. I'm not sure why you think I would even need one.
                4) We use aliases here because we are trying to avoid persecution. (I'm assuming you've never been a JW.)
                5) I don't accept the premise of your question. It's like if I were to ask you when did you stop peeing your pants?
                But since you are into asking judgmental questions and quoting scriptures in support of that judgment, have a look at this one:

                “. . .But when his brothers had gone up to the festival, then he also went up himself, not openly but as in secret.” (John 7:10)
                Do you think Jesus was frightened of them because he chose to conceal his movements?

                Oh, and one more thing. New rule for everyone (Yah, I can make new rules, cuz it's my web site. Get over it.) If you are going to quote a scripture in proof of a point you are making, a reference will no longer suffice. You have to include the text. This is just good manners, because if you look it up, only one persons has to take the time, but if you don't, you oblige dozens, or hundreds, to do what you were too lazy to do.

                Oh, and one more rule. If you are asked a reasonable question based on a sound premise, then you have to answer directly and honestly. If you evade by any of the numerous logical fallacies employed by internet trolls (Their name is Legion.) You will be cancelled.

                All of the above said with the deepest love, dear Ken.

                • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-04 19:13:30

                  Eric If you allow me to answer your statements without being censured

                  1) The religious leaders either saw or knew that Jesus was working miracles. I can't remember the GB doing any miracles unless you can count quick builds.

                  2) I don't believe censuring is always wrong but I asked you why you was censuring me via an email and I thought I was entitled to an answer.

                  3) You mention in your rules that if someone is logged out they wouldn't be "tracked" and you yourself said you wrote software and you know programming. I only asked you if you WERE using an ip logger. I find it hard to believe a software programmer doesn't know about ip loggers and grabbers.

                  4) Jesus said you will be persecuted even hated because of him. Sorry about your new rule about the relevant scriptures. You know nothing about my circumstances even though I never was baptised.

                  5) Your just being silly.

                  I am aware it's your website and you make the rules.

                  If you have the deepest love Dear Eric then you will allow this reply - Best Wishes - Ken

                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-05 16:54:27

                    You asked me why I speak disparagingly of the GB and I answered that I do so for the same reason that Jesus spoke disparagingly of the religious leaders of this day. I then expected you to answer my question, but instead, you came up with this confusing piece of reasoning:

                    1) The religious leaders either saw or knew that Jesus was working miracles. I can’t remember the GB doing any miracles unless you can count quick builds.

                    What does the GB not performing miracles have to do with anything?

                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-05 16:57:41

                    2) You would have been entitled to an answer if your premise was true, but again you are working on a false premise. Here is the definition of "censure".

                    "express severe disapproval of (someone or something), especially in a formal statement."

                    To the best of my knowledge, I have not done that to you, but if that isn't the case, please point me to where I did.

                  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-05 17:02:52

                    4) Why are you sorry about the new rule? Is it too much work to include the text of your references to save your readers the work of looking it up?

                    You wrote in closing "If you have the deepest love Dear Eric then you will allow this reply – Best Wishes – Ken"

                    I have allowed all your replies to date, have I not? You are right that I do not know your circumstances nor your level of Bible knowledge, so allow me to explain that when I say "deepest love", I was referring to agape love, which always looks for the best interests of the person or persons affected. For example, if someone were to write an inappropriate or hurtful comment, then out of love I would remove that comment.

                    • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-05 21:04:34

                      Eric - With respect no you haven't. "If you are not happy here, why do you continue to come?" I replied "Maybe you had the "Truth"". It never showed up even though I got an email saying you had approved it. Therefore you had censured me contrary to what you had said "I am not censuring you". I asked you what is the difference between censure and approval. You never answered that question. censure and disapproval are synonyms

                      If I have to have your approval (it's your website you have that right) then as soon as you disapprove then you have censured me. You know you have made it extremely difficult for me to answer questions if it takes 24 hours to post a comment and being 5 hours in front of you that adds to the difficulty.

                      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-07 09:31:45

                        You complained about being censured when I put you in an approval queue. That is not censure. I passed all of your comments that I felt didn't violate forum commenting guidelines. Some did violate guidelines--like this one--but I passed them anyway.

                      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-07 18:07:01

                        Ken, you seem pretty transparent to me and in not afraid to explain that to you,
                        You always start your messages out with a statement like "With Respect", "For what it's worth", "I've Judged no one" etc. this is called "virtue signaling"! its designed to make people view you as a "person with virtue!" the problem with that is you are constantly self-declaring that virtue in yourself rather than letting your listeners determine that by your words and actions, (that's a form of boasting in yourself)!
                        then comes your attack, always designed to paint the person you're debating with as the perpetrator and yourself as the victim, yet in those words are messages of condemnation for the views of opponent.
                        this is so typical of persons who have been taught is the worldly systems of "Highter Learning" as to how to "win debates" it's all about "victory with or without truth".
                        Most of what you are saying now in your words is clearly designed to paint Meleti Vivlon as a Villian who is being unfair to you and again "you paint yourself as the victim of him?
                        You don't even respond to my words of counsel to you? except with a thumbs down, and the reason for that is you have no logical and good reply.
                        You and your friends seem to have come here to defend and promote "Orthodoxy" and its apostate doctrines, thinking "Xjw's are vulnerable to these teaching?! Yet you still use the same demonic and coercive methodology to win people over to your type of worship!
                        Anyone who studies history honestly can clearly see the flaws in both the Orthodox religious groups along with the Organization of "Jehovah's Witnesses"
                        neither you nor your friends (all of whom i dare say have given thumbs down to anything contrary to Orthodox doctrine show no real desire to learn or be taught anything other than Orthodox theology!

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 17:11:16

                No Alias here?, what about your "full transparent name" Ken?
                Ken this is the fear you should have!!

                (Ecclesiastes 3:14) 14 I have come to know that everything the true God makes will endure forever. There is nothing to add to it and nothing to subtract from it. The true God has made it this way, so that people will fear him.
                Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad.

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 17:14:58

                ken: your accusations of using "an ip logger" seem demonic in nature!
                (Genesis 3:4, 5) . . .At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”

                nasty use of the "power of Suggestion"!!

            • Reply by Ken on 2022-03-03 16:55:52

              Eric - Because the articles and videos you make are always going to cause divisions maybe you have some deep seated reason to target the Watchtower all the time instead of concentrating on positive things like a lot of other "Orthodox" Christian sites . That's just my opinion- One must add. - !
              !

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-04 17:06:59

                (Matthew 10:33-35) . . .. 34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 

                Divisions are the consequences of individuals who go contrary to Gods law and those who strive to align themselves with God!

                Yes, Ken if you're not interested is progressing beyond "Orthodoxy" stay with it, and die with it!

                How "all over the map" you are in your desperate desire to "derail this train"!

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-27 09:18:58

        My theory is that the need to belong to some group, to not be all alone, overwhelms their love of truth.

        • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 15:35:51

          This is what I call "group Think" it is bound up in satanic brainwashing linked to so many things: the trinity = group of 3, democracy = obedience to the majority of a group, (which happens to be the trick Rutherford used to take control of the Bible Students group), this need and social programing Satan has socially engineered into us is strongly promoted by the society and the allegiance is to the group and the group leaders, this was done very cleverly by Rutherford starting in 1917 the literature he wrote by constantly whenever mentioning "God" Or "Jehovah" then mentioning "his organization" along with it, then by repeating this "mantra" over and over again you couple the two together and the reader eventually views the two separate things as equal "God" and "the organization" this is a very clever use of group think. "Group think" exploits our natural desire to not want to be alone (like Adam) and our natural love for the family unit, (another part of our design). when we understand the Diametrics of how Satan uses "group think to compromise our personal relationship with our Jehovah and his Son and our family (bound by love) it helps us combat this satanic construct.

          • Reply by rajeshsony on 2022-03-02 09:37:58

            "the reader eventually views the two separate things as equal “God” and “the organization” this is a very clever use of group think."

            The most recent and perhaps biggest example of this was Study Article 39 of the September 2021 Watchtower, "When a Loved One Leaves Jehovah". Throughout the article, being disfellowshipped/disassociating with the organization is equated with "leaving Jehovah". I'm not actually sure if the article even mentions "leaving the organization" once. I don't think it does. It only ever says "leaving Jehovah". It's unbelievable how far it's gone. In the minds of JW, leaving the organization is synonymous with leaving Jehovah. To them, it's not leaving the organization; it's leaving Jehovah.

            The mindset is this; "Leaving the organization is equal to leaving Jehovah because this organization is the only place on Earth where Jehovah can be found, and being a part of it is the only way you can be saved, thus leaving it is effectively leaving Jehovah and giving up your salvation." This is, I'm sure, verbatim what Jehovah's Witnesses say and believe. Of course, the mindset relies on faulty reasoning; it commits the logical fallacy of begging the question. "Leaving the organization is leaving Jehovah because Jehovah is found only in the organization"; it's circular reasoning.

            Not only that, but having this sort of mindset gives JW's a reason to not have to listen to anything that anyone who leaves the organization says. "They can't possibly be reasonable or right about anything, as they've already committed the worst sin, breaking Jehovah's heart by leaving Him entirely." If someone leaves the organization, you get full permission to say/believe all sorts of things; "That person doesn't want to live a life in line with Jehovah's standard", or "that person is an apostate and hates Jehovah", or "this person, due to being an apostate who left Jehovah, cannot have the truth about anything and instead wants to deceive everyone by spreading false information about Jehovah and His organization." Believing all those things gives you full permission to never be obliged to listen a word they have to say, or even ever say so much as a "hello, how are you?" All because of "how much they've hurt Jehovah's heart by leaving Him." That article helped, I'm sure, to reinforce this mindset beyond imagination by treating "leaving the organization" as effectively the same as "leaving Jehovah", thereby making the two synonymous in the minds of every JW.

            So terribly sad.

        • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-27 11:42:30

          Maybe God will forgive them!

          • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 01:24:26

            without repentance?

          • Reply by cooper on 2022-02-27 20:32:16

            I'm sure God will forgive the Unitarians too!

            • Reply by Frankie on 2022-02-28 17:25:09

              I’m sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-01 15:34:12

                There are four slaves. Only one gets the prize offered to Christians by Jesus. But apparently, two of them do get another chance at life.

                “Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 44 I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.” (Luke 12:41-48)

              • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 15:43:57

                If we draw conclusions like this "I’m sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!" are we not making "a Judgement" in our heart that wrong thinking is ok? and so what is the incentive to search for the truth as a "valuable pearl", Paul talked about being "disapproved somehow" so should we set rules to ourselves or others presuming what Jehovah will forgive and not forgive, that is in essence "playing God" and technically violating the first commandment!

                • Reply by Frankie on 2022-03-01 16:26:23

                  Dear BobPohl,
                  my response to Cooper was not intended as a condemnation, but quite the opposite. You know, I'm a long way from judging anyone. My answer was only replica that basically followed my comment above, where I highlighted love.

                  So the (perhaps) hidden meaning of my response to Cooper is about mutual love:
                   “I'm sure God will forgive the Trinitarians too!“ + „I'm sure God will forgive the Unitarians too!“ =
                  „Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8).

                  So Cooper loves all Unitarians (and certainly Trinitarians, too) and wants all their sins to be forgiven. I love all Trinitarians and Unitarians and I want all their sins to be forgiven. And so we all love each other and our mutual love will cover multitude of our sins. And if we love each other, then we have eternal life, because love is above all:

                  “We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.” (1 John 3:14)
                  “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”” (John 13:35)
                  “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” (Eph 4:32)
                  With love, Frankie

                  • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 17:22:05

                    My dear Frankie,
                    First of all, my love for both Cooper and you motivates me to caution you both on becoming judges in place of God or his son!
                    The full and correct understanding "love" is oh so very important in our ability to be "one with God", and his Son.
                    So, let's look to the scriptures to help us understand it better.
                    (Mark 8:30-33) 30 At that he strictly ordered them not to tell anyone about him. 31 Also, he began teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and rise three days later. 32 Indeed, he was making that statement openly. But Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 At this he turned, looked at his disciples, and rebuked Peter, saying: “Get behind me, Satan! because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”
                    in this example I believe Jesus was showing love to peter and all the disciples who watched him discipline in a very pointed manner.
                    (Mark 11:15-18) 15 They now came to Jerusalem. There he entered the temple and started to throw out those selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and he would not let anyone carry a utensil through the temple. 17 He was teaching and saying to them: “Is it not written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a cave of robbers.” 18 And the chief priests and the scribes heard it, and they began to seek how to kill him; for they were in fear of him, because all the crowd was astounded at his teaching.
                    In this second example of Love Jesus showed for all around him. we can sometimes not view these as acts of live but one of the basic principles bound in God's Love is discipline, yes discipline is a loving act. even Jesus needed to fully learn that lesson.
                    12 For those whom Jehovah loves he reproves,
                    Just as a father does a son in whom he delights.
                    (Proverbs 3:12) 12 For those whom Jehovah loves he reproves, Just as a father does a son in whom he delights.
                    (Revelation 3:19) 19 “‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent. 
                    If now we go to (1 Corinthians 13:4-7) 4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
                    We start to use this biblical definition of love as a touchstone to determine if we are properly motivated by true Godly Love or not?
                    by making sure that our love "rejoices with the truth" we cannot accept any false teaching as being ok, good, or acceptable to our God and his Son, and we should work very hard to find and teach it, we can never let the prevailing view that a "I'm ok you're ok" view become a part of the teaching of "true Godly love" because it really is a satanic construct to get us to compromise truth and Love, because eventually it teaches that its ok to disobey Gods commands to us, and that is not what love is in anyway connected with!
                    Only God and his Son, have that power to forgive!
                    Again, I say this in Love for both of you!

                    • Reply by Frankie on 2022-03-01 18:06:04

                      Dear BobPfohl,
                      we are to forgive each other - this is the commandment of our Lord:
                      "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt 6:14)
                      Furthermore:
                      Matt 18:22; Luke 11:4; 17:4; John 20:23; 2 Cor 2:10; Eph 4:32; Coloss 3:13.
                      I have nothing more to say about this. Please, try to think about forgiveness.
                      With love, Frankie.

                      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-02 09:04:42

                        This counsel is relevant.
                        “. . .Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”” (Luke 17:4)

                        We notice that the forgiveness is not granted willy nilly, but rather as a consequence of a repentant plea.

                        • Reply by Frankie on 2022-03-03 04:29:37

                          Dear Eric,
                          I think the first scripture I mentioned is relevant: "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt 6:14) - but the others are also important. That text is about an action you have to take against your brother first - that's important. You must be active in forgiveness because:
                          „ ... if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.“ (Matt 6:15).
                           
                          If I do not forgive, I will not be forgiven. However, God can forgive the one who sinned against me, even if I did not forgive him (Romans 9:15). Maybe this is why BobPohl didn't understand me. You don't have to answer me. I hereby consider the debate on forgiveness to be over on my part. I need to cool down a little (Eph 4:26).
                          Take care, I wish you a lot of health and love, which I keep talking about and emphasizing here.
                          Frankie

                          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 07:10:35

                            We have to harmonize all of scripture to get a full understanding and be balanced. God does not forgive everyone. Otherwise, there would be no need for the lake of fire. The important element is our willingness to forgive whenever there is true repentance.

                      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 19:54:42

                        Dear Frankie,

                        I see no sin being committed here? unless you view discipline as a sin?

                        What exactly do you feel i am not forgiving about or over?

                        (2 Timothy 3:8-4:5) 8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, 11 the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in I·coʹni·um, in Lysʹtra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. 12 In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

                        (Proverbs 27:17) 17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens his friend.

                        so, this is how we teach and reprove one another? there is nothing to forgive, there is no sin being committed here, but by your unwillingness to accept correction and then accuse me of sinning and then trying to conclude the conversation by having the final say on the matter, displays what about your willingness to be taught by others?

                        as true Christians we should be able to debate a topic like this to a conclusion, and if possible, agreement?

                        It's easy to use the "you don't love me" defense thinking to try to win over another person, by accusing them of "sinning and not being loving"!?? this goes back to my original point with you about sitting in Jehovah's seat of Judgment!

                        to quote tina turner "What's Love got to do with it?"

                        I call what you're doing is "slash and burn" style of debate, no real logical thought being used just "guilting" and "not showing a willingness to be taught," where is the use of logic or intellect here, just an emotional manipulation this is clever and dogmatic, but manifest a total rejection of Gods discipline, if you don't correct that how are you ever going to grow spiritually? if that is truly you desire why not carry this conversation to a loving, and agreed upon conclusion?

                        • Reply by Frankie on 2022-03-02 14:28:33

                          Dear BobPohl,
                          So I accused you of not forgiving? Am I sitting on Jehovah's seat of Judgment? And what else do you make of my simple claims that we should forgive each other? What else are you accusing me of?
                          I have never condemned anyone and I do not condemn you either. I don't know what your intention is.
                          Leave me alone! End of discussion.

                          • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 19:20:31

                            Frankie, when you use the term "my simple claims" shows you desire to present yourself as humble in in the eyes of those observing your words,
                            your 2 opening questions are clever ways of accusing me of Judging your "eventuality" not your behavior, no only Jehovah or his son can do that, but your behavior is very transparent to me, and you don't what it exposed so you fain ignorance and deny your behavior and try to stifle any further discussion to be able to come to a truthful and honest conclusion or consensus of truth.
                            thus, there is no fertile ground for Gods spirit to bless out interaction, as per (Matthew 18:18-20) 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

                            • Reply by Frankie on 2022-03-08 15:35:20

                              Dear Bob,
                              I want to apologize for my strict response to your comment. Sometimes I don't have a good day, but I can't be angry for long. I'm not angry with you at all, and I hope you're not angry with me either. We may have different opinions, but more important is the love between brothers and sisters, you and me and all of us.
                              I would like to hug you and I wish you much of God's blessing on your journey from WT to Jesus Christ.

                              With love, Frankie.

                            • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 20:06:22

                              I Agree completely!

                  • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-03 16:16:10

                    For what it's worth, mutual love is what I got from your comment! God bless you brother.

            • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-01 15:37:45

              are you not "Judging" Cooper with your thinking? and is that not a dangerous thing to do?

              • Reply by cooper on 2022-03-03 16:14:17

                I've judged no one in place of God, I pray that all my brothers continue on the narrow path towards life.

  • Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2022-03-02 14:58:46

    Trinity discussion and the dogmatism and judgemental attitude that follows it. It remains an unending discussion that just won't go away. Is it possible for trinitarians to miss the: Father yhwh, Jesus who came in the name of yhwh and The helper who the Jesus who came in name of the father yhwh promised?

    Is it possible for those who don't subscribe to the trinity doctrine to miss theFather yhwh, Jesus who came in the name of yhwh and The helper who the Jesus who came in name of the father promised?

    Whether we are learned or unlearned, I believe we must guard against dogmatism and judgmentalism, as indicative, not of wisdom and discernment, but of both smallness of mind and smallness of spirit and heart.........Ray Franz words on this same trinity doctrine.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 07:24:11

      Standing firm in the truth is not being dogmatic nor judgmental. There is nothing in the gospels showing Jesus was tolerant of false teachings, nor do any of the Christian writers demonstrate an attitude of appeasement when confronting false teachers. Trinitarians and those promoting other false doctrines like the immortal soul and hellfire will try to get us to "moisten their tongue with a drop of water" by asking us to let them be, claiming that it is all just a matter of opinion--as if there were no hard truths in Scripture nor in life. The father is seeking worshippers who will worship him in spirit and truth, but if we are willing to take a blasé attitude toward truth, we won't be found by Him.

  • Comment by Frankie on 2022-02-24 06:34:02

    Hi Ken.
    I see here a discussion about Jesus’ presence in Sheol between his death on cross and his resurrection. I want to present my view of this quite often discussed matter and remembering 1 Cor 13:12 at the same time. The whole issue may arise from 1 Peter 3:18-19:
    „For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,“ [ESV]
     
    Let's look at the time sequence of events.
     
    1. Before his death on the cross, Jesus says to the believing criminal: " ... and he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). Thus, can we say that Jesus' existence did not finish with his death as some claim? Yes or not? It depends on your belief in Trinity or on your belief in non-existence of Trinity. I know brothers, who believe in dual God - the Father and the Son, without Spirit - maybe the „Twinity“ ?
     
    2. Dying Jesus released the spirit: "... and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:30). At that moment, the Jesus’ spirit separated from the body (“gave up”) which remained on the cross (later in grave), and this spirit returned to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
     
    But what is a spirit and the Spirit. Was Jesus’ spirit the spiritual being after his dead, i.e. Jesus in spirit? We know that God is spirit (John 4:24). And God gives His Spirit to every living being. So there is difference between Spirit and spirit, because there is God’ Spirit and man’s spirit (1 Cor 2:11). Man’s body and spirit are two different things that work together while a person is alive. And what about spirit of animals?
    “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21)”.
     
    As to me, the God's Spirit is a special kind of energy/force/information field, the essence of which is unknown to us and without which there is no life - neither for humans nor for animals.
     
    When Jesus died, his spirit returned to God just as the spirit of every dying man (Romans 5:15). God has all the information about everyone so that He can use His Spirit, His energy/power/ information to resurrect everyone at any time. If the spirit of Jesus would continue in existence as a spiritual being after his death, then this would also apply to all dead people, including the criminal crucified with him, who would immediately go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. Doesn't that remind us certain doctrine?
     
    3. Jesus' physical body was dead and remained intact in the tomb for 3 days (Acts 13:37). After that, Jehovah God used His Spirit to resurrect Jesus into spiritual body. Jesus was changed as ”the first begotten of the dead” (Col 1:18; Rev 1:5) - the hope for us (1 Cor 15:51).
     
    Based on the above, I think, like Eric, that Jesus' visit must took place after his resurrection. Moreover, in the quote "in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison" is no information that this would be accomplished within three days.
     
    It would be possible to analyze other verses about Jesus' visit to Sheol, e.g. Romans 10: 6-7; Eph 4: 8-9; Acts 2:27, though I don't know if it would matter at all and if it would be useful here. Rather not.
     
    Dear Ken, You know, I consider this Jesus-in-Sheol debate as intellectual exercise only that is not vital for our salvation. But there are not so much vital things that are crucial for our salvation.
    Why did John write, "And you have an anointing from the Holy One and you know everything." (1 John 2:20). At that time, Christians had only a fraction of our current knowledge - and yet they already knew everything. The Lord Jesus and God, through His Holy Spirit, told them everything. We know everything for our salvation since then. Excessive drowning in detail can take us away from the main thing. It could happen that we don't see the forest because of the trees.
     
    I think you know that love is above all (1 Cor 13:13). So love is above specific knowledge (1 Cor 13: 2 and 8: 1), even about faith! Paul's chapter 13 should be learned by every Christian by heart. If you and I had mastered all the mysteries (e.g., 1 Peter 3: 18-19 or Trinity) and if we explained prophecies of Daniel 12: 1-4 or Matt 24 perfectly, or if we had faith as 3 mustard grains, or even if we raised the dead, we would only be a big "nothing" if we did not have love for God (Matt. 22:37), for the people (Matt. 19:19) and to brothers and sisters (1 John 3:14).
     
    With love, Frankie.

    • Reply by Ken on 2022-02-24 12:41:08

      Dear Frankie - thanks for your response about Jesus' 3 days in hades question. I think it has gone off topic so I apologise to Eric for that. You mention in No 1, that you know brothers who believe there were two Gods or a Twinity. According to Michael S Heiser a biblical scholar, second temple Jews including Paul and the NT writers either knew or believed there were two powers in heaven. The two Yahweh's in Gen 19:24.

      Also if you asked second temple Jews why all the wickedness on earth, according to Heiser, firstly they would say because of Adams sin, secondly because of Genesis 6,
      the Sons of God who left their heavenly abode, they also taught mankind all the different
      skills that led to the flood and the wiping out of different Nations and Tribes by God after the flood because there were still Giants on the earth after the flood.

      Jude 6, are these the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to or proclaimed something to whether 3 days or 40 days. I think so. Heiser explains a lot about Old Testament powers in heaven which I think is key to understanding OT theology. Also Peter & Jude were well aware of the Book of Enoch 1 and alluded to it. I am sorry It as gone off topic but I am looking forward to Eric's explanation of Jesus saying I AM in his next talk. - Best Wishes - Ken

  • Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-02 21:53:58

    I know it really bothers you to have downvotes, but we discussed it a number of times and I've decided that the pluses outweigh the negatives.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 07:15:16

      I understand you don't like to be down voted when the down voter doesn't provide a reason, and I understand that can be very galling. I get many down votes on my YouTube channel without ever getting a reason. But they serve a purpose. They allow us to gauge the overall reaction of what we say. We have to be secure enough in our position to handle rejection, whether it is unwarranted or not.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 12:17:13

        The WT overlords would never allow down voting. That alone seems like justification for allowing it.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 12:17:48

        PS: I just down voted your comment. ?

        • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-03 23:41:15

          lol

  • Comment by rusticshore on 2022-02-24 19:57:22

    I always appreciated the aphorism, "Try to understand the Trinity and you will lose your mind - try to deny it, and you will lose your life."

    • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 19:52:35

      the Trinity doctrine is a satanic construct designed to stere individuals away from knowing our God the degree possible, it similar to the teaching of evolution only to be appreciated by the intellectuals of this evil satanic world. it makes it impossible for a person to bond with God or his son properly. its frontage is "chaos and confusion"! Yet i understand by the nature of this topic it draws like a magnet all those who are heart bound to this doctrine and blindly adhere to it, is becomes the central core of these individuals' beliefs, and thus they can't see or understand Gods simple and clear promise and goal for mankind, that is to give them everlasting life! Thus the "trinity doctrine" becomes to them there Idle that the bow to and are obsessed with worshiping!!
      this is the big daddy of "false teachings" the thought of not accepting it is not to be considered possible, its very similar to the JW Organization coupling itsself with Jehovah God over and over in its writings so that the reader reads it many times and eventually it becomes part of the persons "belief set".
      the thing i find most interesting is neither the word "trinity" or the phrase "Jehovah and his organization" exist in the scriptures, but become central doctrines?? sorry not from my God Jehovah and his son Jesus, but from Satan the jealous one who wants to usurp Jehovah and Jesus and get us to follow him either as a "Trinity" or a "Human built Organization"

      • Reply by BobPfohl on 2022-03-02 20:29:15

        excellent thinking "just wrong", if we remember the attitudes of Jews who fell into false worship for example under Jezebels leadership, think about the accounts of those who worshipped these false gods?

        and then how Jehovah and empowered his profits to deal with them! the truly indoctrinated into false worship have a difficult path out of that snare!

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-03 07:44:25

        Well put, JW

  • Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-02-26 05:41:59

    Hi Eric,

    Just wondering if you could write a brief article to help encourage some Ukrainian brothers that I have asked them to have a look at this website… One elder that I know that has moved there said his eyes have been opened and thanks me.

    I am sure the subject of the trinity will still be here to pick up where we left of.

    What do think?

  • Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-02-26 15:41:25

    Just wondering,

    Mate two old geezers like us, we can always have a yarn or two. Please everyone is there any words of encouragement you all can impart?

    Just wondering, get that article out as I want to share it with some in our congregation and abroad.

    Thanks heaps mate.

  • Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-02-26 18:01:02

    Just wondering,

    All good mate. All good ?

  • Comment by ZbigniewJan on 2022-02-27 05:47:33

    Thank you, Eric, for taking up the topic of the Trinity.
    I really like the title: Is the Trinity Doctrine Given from God or Revealed by the Devil. This doctrine divides Christians very much. And this is obvious to me because the followers of Christ are united and harmonious, and therefore not divided in the basic teachings of God. When I discuss with a man who denies Jesus' life before he was born on earth and says that the Logos is God's thought, I do not feel Christ's unity with this man. Also, I do not feel such a oneness with someone who is praying to the Holy Spirit and saying God does not know who he is really talking about.
    The doctrine of the Trinity revolves around the figure of God the Son. Either he elevates the Son to the position of Almighty God, or strips Him from glory and equates Him to a super-angel. Behind this way of thinking is the Devil most jealous of the position and glory that God intended for Jesus' only-begotten son. I think that the main adversary for the Devil is not Jehovah God but his only-begotten Jesus. By placing Jesus in the position of Almighty God, equal to God the Father, he deprives Jesus of the rights to the Savior and Lord of all living and dead people.
    Colossians 1: 15-20 shows me Jesus' standing. I read that God created mankind through Jesus and for Jesus. So I am made for Jesus. He is the savior, judge, Lord and God, he is seated at the right hand of his Father, the Almighty God. I realized this when I rejected JW's doctrine of Jesus as an archangel.
    In the doctrine of the Trinity, a very weak point is the anonymity of the Holy Spirit. A person without a name is practically non-existent. The dead people with the inscription UNKNOWN on the grave are the most regrettable and pitying existence. Since we were created in the image and likeness of God and everyone receives their own name and has the right to use it. So we are not made in the image of God the Spirit.
    A great thought came from Just Wonndering: We are made in the image of God, but we don't have a double or triple personality.
    The doctrine of the Trinity is overcome and condemned by TRUTH and truth is in Christ Eph 4: 20,21. The truth can only be revealed through the Holy Spirit, which our Lord gives us, and the Spirit comes from our Father Jehovah.
    Thank you all, Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I learned a lot from discussing it together.
    Your brother Zbigniew

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-02-27 10:01:59

      That's a very interesting thought. Thank you for sharing.

  • Comment by Ralf on 2022-05-06 01:06:58

    I am no scholar, just a guy who has been reading the bible for around 40 years. In this response, I will make mistakes. I have likely misunderstand some of what you are saying. I apologize. I want to be corrected where I am wrong. We are called to continually study and share God's truth as we find it, just as you are attempting to do with Beroean Pickets.
     
    I'm a member of a church, attend bible studies, and have a number of resources and bible teachers/theologians that help me. I am curious to know if you have a church, school of theology, or any theologians who are helpful to you? I read the list of beliefs on the web page. I'm thinking you are theologically, nearly still a Jehovah's Witness. But you've discarded the organization.
      
    In considering the nature of God, 1 Timothy 6 is helpful. " . . . I direct you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." Concerning the title Lord of lords and King of kings, I looked at Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3, and Rev 17:14 & 19:16. 

    I'm a Trinitarian, and like you have also heard all the well used explanations and proof texts for the Trinity. Be patient with me, because I am certainly going to use some of them. You say your desire is to protect those escaping the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society from going from the frying pan into the trinitarian fire. To which churches or group are you hoping to direct them?  

    I agree, we only know the creator is Jehovah God from scripture, just as only God's word informs us of God's nature, character, means of saving us, etc. It's your opinion that we should also expect God to reveal explicitly his triune nature by name. That he didn't, doesn't tell us anything about his nature. I have heard the criticism that trinity isn't in the bible, as often as we both have heard the same proof texts and arguments for the Trinity.  

    You pose the question, "how is it possible for God to communicate truth in such plain speech and simple writing which his adopted children can understand, yet which he hides from those who think themselves to be wise and intellectual?" The truth we need is in the bible and available to everyone, yet not everyone gets it. The answer is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent by Jesus and the Father to guide us into all truth (1 Cor 2:10-11, John 16:12-13). Those relying upon their own wisdom and intelligence don't have the Holy Spirit. Only with the Holy Spirit does the truth of the bible change someone, and only by the Holy Spirit can anyone say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor 12:3). 

    You say we earn the right to receive from the Holy Spirit, knowledge needed for salvation, and a relationship with the Father, because we love. However, Jesus says we are given to Him by the Father, Jesus says He calls us. Nearly all of Galatians 3 and the last half of Romans 3 say our faith is what makes us Christians, and Ephesians 2 tells us that our faith is a gift of God, and we don't earn it.  

    God chooses to give us truth and save us because He loves us. We are not chosen because of our love for Him, because we are his enemies when He saves us (Rom 5:10). Our love for Him is a result of being chosen and made a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:17). Romans 8:5-6 tells us that if we aren't led by the Spirit, we are dead. God does the calling and choosing (John 6:44, 14:6, 17:6-8, Mk 13:20, Lk 12:32, Mt 22:14, John 15:16, Rom 11:7, Eph 1:4, Col 3:12, Deut 7:6), he gives the faith (Rom 3:21-25, Eph 2). Being called and saved results in receiving faith and truth, and they are gracious and unearned gifts of God. Until we have that faith we can do nothing that pleases him (Hebrews 11), and that includes the good work of loving Him. The good works of Christians in the bible come after receiving saving truth/faith (2 Cor 5:17). 

    If our being chosen by God were based on our love, how much love must we have before the Spirit will guide us into saving truth? Is there any security in depending upon the quality and/or quantity of our love? Jehovah God isn't seeking worthy people because there are none. Jehovah God saves us while we are still his sinning enemies. Only those who are called and gifted by the Holy Spirit with saving faith will be humble and rely upon God's revelation instead of their own prideful reason. 

    I am so in agreement with you quoting John 17:3 and the importance of knowing God regarding everlasting life. Trusting in the wrong Jesus is like taking an anti-biotic to cure a viral infection. I agree that if the Trinity is a false teaching, then trinitarians are in grave danger. The bible decides what's true and if a Roman emperor actually did wrongly force the Trinity on the people, his bad behavior doesn't make the Trinity doctrine wrong. 
    We've already agreed that we can't explain God, no matter how smart we may be. If the Trinity is true, it would be equally impossible to understand.

    Still, knowing God is life, and so is faith in Jesus (John 10). If knowing about Jehovah alone was sufficient, the demons would be saved instead of being doomed to the lake of fire in the Book of Revelation. Our eternal destinies hang in the balance of knowing and trusting in the true God, and we can only do that by knowing Jesus who reveals him perfectly. Jesus is the only way we can know the Father and only He is able to reveal the Father because He and the Father are one. As Thomas said when faced with the resurrected Christ, "my Lord and my God." An inferior creature could never truly reveal Jehovah God, the Father, unless He was of the same nature. Jesus said that seeing him was seeing the Father(John 17:21-26). The Jesus his followers saw during the earthly ministry was God incarnate (Col 2:9).  

    You attribute the oneness of Jesus with the Father to their mutual love. "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back" (John 10:17). The word "love" is in the New Testament 233 times, and the Old Testament 246 times (NASB). I haven't looked at every appearance, but where I have looked I don't find any basis for attributing the oneness of Jesus and the Father to their love for each other. It's a oneness that is beyond just a loving relationship. 

    Jesus took on a human nature in addition to His divine nature to accomplish His saving work as Messiah. Jesus came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of the Father, (John 6:38) as a human being. Jesus had to be human in order to accomplish that momentous task of a perfect life in our place and on our behalf. So his will was subject to the Father's as ours should be. He only used His divine power to fulfill prophecy proving He was Messiah and to reveal the Father. In His role as savior, he had to be a human being subjected to temptation, subject to His earthly parents, subordinate to the Father, experiencing grief, brought to tears, fatigued, thirsty, hungry, and was in every way like one of us except that He didn't sin. When He cried out "my God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" He was the very human being we should be if placed in that situation.  

    I'm tempted to simply offer Jesus' instruction to baptize in the triune name as evidence of the Trinity. The Greek word "name" in Matthew 28:18 is singular (as is the Hebrew word for God, Elohim'). He is saying baptize into one name, and then He lists Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Believing God's word to be without error, this is significant. Jesus would certainly know the existence of his Father Jehovah. The Father and the Son are both certainly individuals. What is Jesus' message in including the Holy Spirit in that command? I suppose it can be argued that we are baptizing in the name of God, the name of the incarnation of Michael the Archangel, and an impersonal force. But that makes no sense. There is nothing to be gained by being baptized in the name of a created being like an archangel (or Jesus if he is only a perfect human being). To be baptized into an impersonal force makes even less sense to me.  

    Ontological, economic, or whatever theories men have used to try and explain the unexplainable Trinity all fail. Just as it's beyond us to understand a spirit being that is outside of time and space.  

    You very nicely listed verses that distinguished the different roles of the three persons of the Trinity.

    The Father sent the Son. The Son did not send the Father (John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14)
    Jesus performed the redemptive work. The Father did not. (2 Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 2:24)
    Jesus is the only-begotten. The Father is not. (John 3:16)
    The Father gave the Son. The Son did not give the Father or the Holy Spirit. (John 3:16)
    The Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not send the Father and the Son. (John 14:26; 15:26)
    The Father has given the elect to the Son. Scripture does not say that the Father gave the elect to the Holy Spirit. (John 6:39)
    The Father chose us before the foundation of the world. No indication that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us. (Eph 1:4)
    The Father predestined us to adoption according to the intention of his will. This is not said of the Son or the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:5)
    We have redemption through Jesus’ blood, not the blood of the Father or the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:7)

    It was not the Son who sent the Father. The Father was not sent to do the will of the Son. The Son did not give the Father, nor was the Father called the only-begotten. The Father did not perform the redemptive work. The Holy Spirit did not send the Father and Son. It is not said that the Son or the Holy Spirit chose us, predestined us, and gave us to the Father. The Father calls Jesus the Son (John 9:35), not the other way around. Jesus is called the Son of Man (Matt 24:27); the Father is not. Jesus is called the Son of God (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35); the Father is not called the Son of God. Jesus will sit on the right hand of God (Mark 14:62; Acts 7:56); the Father does not sit on the right hand of the Son. The Father appointed the Son as the heir of all things (Heb 1:1), not the other way around. The Father has fixed the time of the restoring of the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:7), the Son didn’t. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to the Church (1 Cor 12:8-11) and produces fruit (Gal 5:22-23). These are not said of the Father and Son.

    All these distinctions are part of why I believe in the Trinity and not reasons to deny it. Differing roles doesn't mean differing nature. 

    If God is Triune, why wouldn't different divine acts be done by different persons? And still, Jesus throughout the Book of John points out that He is doing divine work only God can do. Jesus raises the dead, forgives sins, controls nature, knows the hearts/minds of people, gives eternal life, has the power to give up His life and take it up again (John 10:17, 4:34, 5:17, 5:36, 9:3, 10:28). In John 10:33 Jesus doesn't deny that He is God when accused by the Jewish leaders. In John 10:38 He says the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Colossians 2:9 states that in Jesus dwells all the fulness of divinity, bodily. The Father is called savior, and Jesus is as well. The Spirit gives truth about God, and Jesus reveals the Father. God alone is to receive praise and honor. In Revelation 15:3-4, a song is sung to the Lamb (Jesus) who is identified as Lord God the almighty and receives glory and worship. And Exodus 34:14 says that worship is reserved only for the one true God. God alone is to be prayed to. Jesus says "I AM" multiple times in the Book of John. In the Book of Revelation, Jesus is given the same titles as God, "Alpha and Omega" and "Beginning and the End".

    You say "Surely, if it (holy spirit) were the third person of a holy Trinity, such a command (to love the Spirit) would be easy to find!" You might expect it. But it's absence doesn't say anything about the nature of the Holy Spirit. I'll base my understanding on what scripture says about the Spirit, not what it doesn't.  

    Only Jesus became incarnate to reveal the Father and to save humankind from the Father's wrath. That distinguishes Him from the Father. What is the Spirit tasked with doing? Jesus said he sends the spirit to comfort and to enlighten men of all that Jesus did and taught. Jesus didn't say the Spirit comes to be praised or loved, He is described as coming as a servant.  

    The Holy Spirit is presented as a person throughout the bible. Can the word "it" be substituted for Holy Spirit and have it make sense? Can an "it" teach, be grieved, give gifts, inspire, and more?  

    There are Hebrew and Greek words for power and authority. If power is intended, the word for spirit wouldn't be used. If we replace the word "Spirit" with "it" or "power", it works in some instances but not others. Even when it works as a replacement for "Spirit", it simply attributes to Him the power He possesses, and it doesn't negate the texts that make known His personhood. 

    If I read Romans 8 and Insert "power" where ever Spirit appears, sometimes it fits but many other times it doesn't. The following verses demonstrate that the Spirit is a He.  

    Acts 5:3,4; Impersonal power can't be lied to and the spirit is also referred to as God.  
    Genesis 1:2; Does power hover? 
    Isaiah 63:10; Only a person can be grieved. 
    Matthew 10:20; A person speaks. 
    Matt 12:32; Speaking against Jesus is forgivable, speaking against the Holy Spirit isn't.  
    Mark 13:11; The Holy Spirit speaks.  
    Luke 2:26; An IT doesn't reveal information.  
    Luke 12:12; The Holy Spirit teaches. 
    John 14:16,17; The other helper sent by Jesus is a HE and not an IT. The Greek is a personal pronoun and not "it". 
    John 15:26; The (Helper)Spirit of truth, HE will testify, not IT will empower you to testify.  
    John 16:13; The Spirit is a HE who comes and guides, an IT doesn't come and guide. 
    Acts 1:16; Forces don't speak or foretell things.  
    Acts 5:32; The Holy Spirit is a witness just as people are. 
    Romans 8:16,26,27; The Holy Spirit is a "himself". 
    1 Cor 2:10; The Holy Spirit searches all things, a force doesn't search. 
    Hebrews 3:7; The Spirit is testifying. 
    Gal 4:6; The Spirit is crying out "Abba! Father!".  

    The focus of the bible is Jesus. Jesus even says so (John 5:39, Luke 24:25-27). The Holy Spirit is not the focus because Jesus is. This doesn't detract from Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a person, what kind of person is He? Acts 5 reads "3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.” 

    God's word also reveals that the Holy Spirit is eternal (Heb 9:14), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-8), God's Spirit (1 Cor 2:10-11), and the Spirit of YHWH (Zech 4:6, Eph 4:30). The Spirit gives the gifts given by God (1 Cor 12:4-11) and is the Lord (2 Cor 3:17-18). 

    In Exodus 16:7, Jehovah God says to the people, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years." But in Hebrews 3:7-9, Jehovah God who speaks in Exodus 16:7 is identified as the Holy Spirit. 

    In Isaiah 6:8, the Lord is speaking. In Acts 28:25 the Lord who is speaking in Isaiah 6 is identified as the Holy Spirit. 

    The three persons of the Trinity don't deal with egos and jealousies like we do. Do you think the Holy Spirit is troubled by not being the focus of human praise or prayer like the Father and Son are? I think not. 

    If three distinct Persons all do divine tasks, share loving relationships, are called God, receive the glory and praise only God deserves, and possess attributes that only God has, then I have no choice but to call those three the one true God because Deut 6:4 is also true. 

    You believe the Holy Spirit has guided you to deny the Trinity doctrine. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us from God's word. If we think it's the Spirit guiding us and it disagrees with God's word, we are incorrect and it's not the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us all scripture is useful for everything pertaining to salvation and the Christian life.  

    There is only one truth for sure, and I am not doubting the Spirits activity in your life. All who are predestined by God for salvation are lead by the Spirit ultimately to salvation. Some get onto the narrow path early in life, and others later. 

    You quote 1 Cor 1:10 showing Jesus wants us in total agreement. You also wonder why people think they can worship in their own ways with their own understandings and still end up in paradise. We are all sinners, which is why wwe can't achieve unity. We are subject to our desires concerning style of worthip and non-essential doctrines. These things separate us into groups. The bible doesn't detail what a worship service should contain. 1 Corinthians 8 teaches tolerance on the part of Christians who possess more knowledge than other Christians, or have a stronger faith. I find God's mercy in the existence of multiple denominations, as long as they aren't heretical.   

    If our capacity for love is a part of being made in God's image and God is love, then God needed someone to love throughout all eternity. If the Son and Spirit are created, there would have been a time when the Father was alone and unable to love or be love. The eternal and unchanging God would then have changed to become love instead of always being love. But since the Son is eternally begotten and the Spirit is eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son; God has always been in a love relationship consistent with scripture identifying God as love.   

    We humans can reason. But human reason can't explain God. Our reason must only serve to help us understand the word of God. If God's word is subject to our reason, we have replaced God. I have little concern for what Dr. Kent Hovind, Reinhold Schlieter, or CARM have to say except when they can be shown correct by God's word. It is unreasonable to think that God would become a human being. It's not reasonable and seems impossible that God could be nailed to a cross and die. It's unreasonable and impossible for the universe to come into existence because God spoke. We don't even know what that means since a spirit being has no lungs or vocal cords. But these things are told us in God's word, and that's reason enough to believe them.

    Actually, I don't need to use the term Trinity. I need only believe. Old Testament people and the earliest Christians didn't have the word trinity. I feel certain I will be chatting with Old Testament people in eternity who never spoke the word trinity during their earthly lives. Coming up with multiple explanations for a Triune God is an example of our inability to understand a Triune God. We should accept it based on scripture, and we can try to explain it for the sake of teaching and apologetics, but we must be gracious in tolerating and even accepting the Christians who explain it differently as long as they don't violate the essential understanding of God.

    What we know that saves us has come to us from outside of ourselves, from God the Holy Spirit alone. Yep, people were burned for disagreements about God, and that isn't God's fault. Sinners are to blame when they fail to grasp those portions of the bible that condemn their evil deeds. And I'm certain that some who mistakenly committed terrible sins in the name of God, had those sins forgiven because of their faith and repentance, and are with the Lord.  

    My hope for you and everyone who claims to be a Christian is for Jesus to welcome you into His presence at the moment of your death, based on your faith in His substitutionary atonement. He would then explain how His blood covered all our sins including the theological ones. But I have no promises that is the case. I only know what He promises that will with certainty assure eternity in His presence. I would be disobedient to not share that good news. His promise is eternal salvation if we believe correctly and have faith in Him. 

    I appreciate forums like this where ideas can be respectfully exchanged. I have changed churches and denominations several times because of my ongoing study and from being taught by those with bigger brains than mine. I will happily read any responses to this response to Eric's/Meleti's THE TRINITY: GIVEN BY GOD OR SOURCED BY SATAN?

    Ralf

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-06 09:04:25

      Why do you think that I am “theologically, nearly still a Jehovah's witness”?

      [Ralf] “To which churches or group are you hoping to direct them?”

      I believe that religion is a snare and a racket so I'm not directing people to any particular church. I want them to learn to worship God in spirit and truth free from the dogma of men.

      [Ralf] “The answer is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent by Jesus and the Father to guide us into all truth”.

      That is true, but it can hardly be used as an argument to prove the point that the Trinity is true, or for that matter that it is false. Wouldn't you agree? After all, I can say the spirit revealed to me that God is not triune, while you might say the opposite. Obviously one of us is wrong.

      [Ralf] “We’ve already agreed that we can’t explain God, no matter how smart we may be. If the Trinity is true, it would be equally impossible to understand.”

      True, we can't explain God, but God can explain God. We just have to listen and be willing to be taught.

      [Ralf] “In His role as savior, he had to be a human being subjected to temptation, subject to His earthly parents, subordinate to the Father, experiencing grief, brought to tears, fatigued, thirsty, hungry, and was in every way like one of us except that He didn’t sin.”

      Did Jesus stop being God while he was a human?

      [Ralf] “I’m tempted to simply offer Jesus’ instruction to baptize in the triune name as evidence of the Trinity. The Greek word “name” in Matthew 28:18 is singular (as is the Hebrew word for God, Elohim’). He is saying baptize into one name, and then He lists Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

      There is both Biblical and historical reason to discount Matthew 28:19 as proof of the Trinity. See this article: https://beroeans.net/2020/12/06/christian-baptism-in-whose-name-part-2/

      I don’t believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

      [Ralf] “Ontological, economic, or whatever theories men have used to try and explain the unexplainable Trinity all fail. Just as it’s beyond us to understand a spirit being that is outside of time and space.”

      The problem with this statement is that is puts the cart before the horse. The statement only works if we have evidence that the Trinity is true.

      [Ralf] “If God is Triune, why wouldn’t different divine acts be done by different persons? And still, Jesus throughout the Book of John points out that He is doing divine work only God can do. Jesus raises the dead, forgives sins, controls nature,”

      Sinful men also raised the dead. So I don’t see how your logic works. Are you suggesting that God cannot authorize someone to forgive sin without making that person into God himself?

      I’ll be doing a video to show how it is wrong to consider the spirit only as an active force or as a person. 

      • Reply by Ralf on 2022-05-07 02:43:52

        I think you are still largely holding to Watchtower theology because you appear to agree with them by denying Jesus is divine, believing we earn God's favor by what we do (love), and denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I note that you are going to do a video further describing your understanding of the Spirit. I look forward to that. I don't know that "person" is a good description for the members of the Trinity anyway. I think people down the ages had nothing better to use. 

        If the only church/religious organization you have ever been a member of is the Witnesses, I can appreciate why you might dislike religion and also not know the value of a local congregation of a larger church body/denomination. When scripture directs us not to neglect gathering together, as some were doing, I think we should listen and obey. The earliest Christians regularly met together to sing psalms, pray, and celebrate the Lord's supper. 

        Don't you get together with others who believe as you do? If you do, you may not call it organized or religion, but it is even if very loosely. If you are one man denomination, then I hope you would examine yourself to see if you are in violation of God's instructions to gather. 

        But, you have a form of a church here with Beroean Pickets, cause you sure do impress me as playing the part of a senior pastor by teaching the bible and correcting the errors of those who follow you. In the ABOUT dropdown tab is a link to WHO WE ARE. At the end of the description of WHO WE ARE is an invitation to join us. Is the WE and the us that are mentioned all of those participating in the discussion on Beroean Pickets (which makes me one of the We), or is there a number of people who are essentially agreeing with your teaching from Youtube and this website? Since they are likely those who participated with you in the Memorial Meal recently, you are not only teaching bible but also have a sacrament. Definitely a church/religion, even if it has no physical walls and it's members are spread out across the globe.  

        You want people free of the dogmas of men. So do I. What about the dogmas of God. Surely you believe you are directing people to the dogmas of God. I'd say a good church, one that isn't a racket, would be a church that is based only on the dogmas of God. Dogmas derived from God's word. If you are waiting for the perfect church before you join one or if you believe you have discovered and are sharing 100% correct teaching of the bible and Holy Spirit, you should be gathering people around that teaching. Rather than directing them to a church, I think you are gathering them to yourself whether you realize it or not. 

        One of us is certainly wrong about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity. There is no proof of anything about the Spirit in the fact that He is sent by the Father and the Son. The Bible's descriptions of Him tell us what to believe about Him. I look forward to your upcoming video. Yet, as for now, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God, one of the three who are the one true God. I think my prior response gave sufficient scriptural evidence for that conclusion. You complained that trinitarian typically responded to you by saying "you just don't get the trinity". Well, I guess you can add me to the list of those who say that. But I'm looking forward to seeing why you don't, from scripture, see that the Spirit is not God.   

        Jesus didn't stop being God when He took on a Human Nature. We agreed that we can't understand God. Don't expect to understand how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time, just be willing to be listen and be taught. He accepts being called God by Thomas, and He suffered and died like a man when tortured and killed. I'm pleased to see you don't believe Jesus is the incarnation of an archangel. 

        Sinful men did receive authority to forgive sins. But not according to their sinful judgement of who's sins could be forgiven. Jesus gave that authority to His disciples. But they exercise that authority only as far as the person being forgiven believes correctly and is repentant. If not, the words of absolution offered by any of us who are Christians are not going to forgive the unrepentant person's sins. Raising people from the dead is also something the a few sinful men did, but only in Jesus' name. In a way, it's like one of us praying for someone to be cured of a disease. Who do we attribute the cure to if it happens, ourselves or the object of our prayers. Jesus actually did the raising, the men were His means. Also, those men were establishing the authority of their teaching which was going to be our bible. The miracles served that purpose, and no men are doing miracles in that fashion today. 

        Ralf

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-07 07:31:34

          Interesting. I have found that virtually every doctrine unique to JWs is false. The rejection of the Trinity is not unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, so just because someone doesn't accept it is hardly a valid reason to paint them with the JW theology brush. Incidentally, I don't deny that Jesus is divine. I just reject your definition of divine which makes him into god almighty. But he is a god.

          Ralf, as to your belief concerning what I believe about religion and what I am doing to worship God, you seem to get your exercise by jumping to conclusions.

          You state: "Raising people from the dead is also something the a few sinful men did, but only in Jesus’ name." What about Elijah and Elisah?

          Thank you for sharing your opinions.

          • Reply by Ralf on 2022-05-07 11:38:05

            I apologize if I assumed too much. Like I said in my original response to your post, I know I'll misunderstand or misinterpret some of what you say. I'm just going with what your words seem to me to be saying. Continue to correct me. But isn't it consistent with JW belief that Jesus is A God and not God Almighty? So that would be an agreement. I knew rejecting the Trinity isn't unique. Arians were doing to long ago.

            Elijah and Elisah were acting in the same office as the early church apostles. God performed miracles through them in order to give the words they proclaimed (and would become scripture) God's stamp of approval. The one situation that might militate against my understanding, that I can think of, is when people not traveling with Jesus were casting out demons in Jesus' name. In Jesus' authority. The disciples asked Jesus if they should stop them. Jesus said no. His mercy and love is present where ever He is rightly proclaimed. I suspect, but the bible doesn't reveal it to us, that those men weren't just going around with a formula using the name Jesus like a magic show. I say that because there is the example of 3 other guys who attempted it with a demon(s), and in response the demon beat them to a pulp and sent them running naked. They surely were using Jesus' name as a formula for self gain and without understanding of who Jesus is.

            I will try and attend, virtually, the next "sacrament" service you have if I can figure out how to do so. That may answer my question concerning what I think may be the burgeoning new Beroean Pickets Church.

            I appreciate your patience with me.

            Ralf

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-07 11:51:32

              I have not abandoned all the beliefs that JWs have. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. However, believing some of the things they believe does not make me theologically bound to JW doctrine anymore than my beliefs that are consistent with Baptist or Catholic teachings bind me to those faiths.

              Regarding Elijah and Elisha resurrecting the dead, I was using that to counter your argument:
              "If God is Triune, why wouldn’t different divine acts be done by different persons? And still, Jesus throughout the Book of John points out that He is doing divine work only God can do. Jesus raises the dead, forgives sins, controls nature, knows the hearts/minds of people, gives eternal life, has the power to give up His life and take it up again (John 10:17, 4:34, 5:17, 5:36, 9:3, 10:28). "

              Yes, if--IF--God is triune, then Father or Son or Holy Spirit, could individually as God resurrect, forgive sins, control nature, give eternal life, etc.

              However, if God is the Father, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, could not God empower individuals to resurrect, forgive sins, control nature, give eternal life, etc.?

              So your argument is not proof of a Trinity. That was the point I was trying to make with the reference to OT resurrections.

              If you would like to join our meetings, check out https://beroeans.net/events/

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-07 07:53:05

          By the way, when Jesus died and for three days and nights lay in the grave, did God die?

          • Reply by Ralf on 2022-05-07 11:51:53

            Yes, but I think our differences here are like our differences on Jesus' divinity. Differing understandings on "divine", and perhaps differing understanding of "death".

            Do you hold to death being non-existence (the JW understanding), only to resume life with resurrection? Because I believe when I die, I continue alive in spirit. The prospect of transitioning seamless from this life of struggle into the presence of Jesus in heaven is what takes the sting out of death. But death is un-natural and a result of sin, and still a sad and evil event as Jesus' tears outside of Lazarus' tomb indicate.

            So, I do believe God died because I believe Jesus is God. The man, Jesus, died just as we all will, and made that seamless transition into a spirit life. I suppose you believe God died as well, only yours is the divine death of A God and not the Almighty God.

            Sincerely,

            Ralf

            p.s. conversing on-line as we are, makes the conversation rather impersonal. I have real respect for your beliefs and for you. You are out there sharing sincere beliefs for the good of others. If I come across as anything but respectful, point it out.

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-08 07:24:02

              You don't need to believe that you continue "alive in spirit" to have the sting removed from death. Since the dead know nothing, the time between one's death and one's resurrection will be instantaneous from one's own point of view, though thousands of years may have passed.

              Jesus was fully human, not a god. He gave up his divinity according to Philippians 2:5,6

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