You might be wondering about the Title of this video: Does it Grieve God’s Spirit When We Reject Our Heavenly Hope for an Earthly Paradise? Maybe that seems a little harsh, or a little judgmental. Bear in mind that it is meant especially for my ex JW friends who, though continuing to believe in our heavenly Father and his son, Christ Jesus, and who have begun partaking of the emblems (as commanded by Jesus to all who put faith in him) still don’t want “to go to heaven.” Many have commented on my YouTube channel and also through private emails about their preference, and I wanted to address this concern. The comments are an actual sampling of what I often see:
“I feel deep down inside that I want to possess the earth…this goes way beyond a childish way of understanding paradise.”
“I love this planet and God's incredible creations. I look forward to a new earth, one ruled by Christ and his fellow kings/priests and I want to stay here.”
“Although I like to think I am righteous, I have no desire to go to heaven.”
“We could always wait and see. I'm not too worried about what happens really since it has been promised that it will be good.”
These comments are perhaps partly noble sentiments as we want to praise the beauty of God’s creation and trust in God’s goodness; though, of course, they are also the product of JW indoctrination, the relicts of decades of being told that for the vast majority of people, salvation will involve an “earthly hope,” a term that isn’t even found in the Bible. I’m not saying there isn’t an earthly hope. I’m asking, is there anywhere in Scripture where Christians are offered an earthly hope for salvation?
Christians in other religious denominations believe we go to heaven when we die, but do they understand what that means? Do they really hope for that salvation? I have talked to a great many people in my decades of preaching from door to door as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I can say with assurance that the people I talked to who considered themselves to be good Christians, believed that good people go to heaven. But that is about as far as it goes. They really have no idea what that means—maybe sitting on a cloud playing a harp? Their hope was so vague that most really didn’t yearn after it.
I used to wonder why people from other Christian denominations would fight so hard to stay alive when they were sick, even enduring horrible pain while suffering from a terminal illness, rather than just let go and go off to their reward. If they really believed they were going off to a better place, why fight so hard to stay here? That wasn’t the case with my father who died of cancer in 1989. He was convinced of his hope and was looking forward to it. Of course, his hope was that he’d be resurrected to an earthly paradise as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Was he being misled? If he understood the real hope being offered Christians, would he have rejected it, as so many Witnesses do? I don’t know. But knowing the man, I don’t think so.
In any case, before discussing what the Bible says about “heaven” as the destination for true Christians, it is first important to ask those who have misgivings about going to heaven, where those misgivings really come from? Do the misgivings they have about going to heaven relate to fear of the unknown? What if they learned that the heavenly hope does not mean leaving earth and humanity behind forever and going off to some unknown spirit world? Would that change their point of view? Or is the real problem that they don’t want to make the effort. Jesus tells us that “small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:14 BSB)
You see, as a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t have to be good enough to merit eternal life. I only had to be good enough to survive Armageddon. Then I’d have a thousand years to work on what it takes to merit eternal life. The other sheep hope is kind of an “also ran” prize, a consolation prize for participating in the race. Salvation for Jehovah’s Witnesses is very much based on works: Attend all the meetings, go out in the preaching work, support the Organization, regularly Listen, Obey, and be Blessed. So, if you check all the boxes and stay inside the Organization, you’ll get through Armageddon, and then you can work on perfecting your personality so as to achieve everlasting life.
After such ones achieve actual human perfection at the end of the Millennium and then pass the final test, they will be in position to be declared righteous for everlasting human life.—12/1, pages 10, 11, 17, 18. (w85 12/15 p. 30 Do You Remember?)
Can you imagine they “achieve” it? Having grown accustomed to the cooing voice of The Watchtower that paints a picture of righteous Jehovah’s Witnesses living in peace in an earthly paradise, perhaps many ex JWs still like the idea of being just “Jehovah’s friends”—a concept mentioned often in Watch Tower publications but not once in the Bible (the only “friend of Jehovah” the Bible speaks of was the non-Christian Abraham at James 1:23). Jehovah’s Witnesses consider themselves to be righteous and believe that they will inherit a paradise earth after Armageddon and there they will work toward perfection and gain everlasting life at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ. That is their “earthly hope”. As we know, Jehovah’s Witnesses also believe that only a small group of Christians, only 144,000 who have lived since the time of Christ, will go off to heaven as immortal spirit beings just prior to Armageddon and that they will rule from heaven. Actually, the Bible doesn’t say that. Revelation 5:10 says these ones will rule “upon or on the earth”, but the New World Translation renders that as “over” the earth, which is a misleading translation. That’s what they understand as a “heavenly hope”. Indeed, any depictions of heaven that you might see in the publications of the Watch Tower Society usually depict white-robed, bearded men (all white for that matter) floating among the clouds. On the other hand, depictions of the earthly hope held out to the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses are colorful and appealing, showing happy families living in garden-like landscapes, feasting on the best of foods, building beautiful homes, and enjoying peace with the animal kingdom.
But is all this confusion based on a false understanding of what heaven is as it relates to the Christian hope? Is heaven or the heavens referring to a physical location, or a state of being?
When you leave the cloistered environment of JW.org, you have a chore to deal with. You have to clean house, remove from your mind all the false images implanted from years of feeding off Watchtower imagery and thought.
So, what should ex JWs who are searching for Bible truth and finding their freedom in Christ understand about their salvation? Do they still fall for the hidden JW message intended to appeal to those with an earthly hope? You see, if you are still going to be in a sinful state according to JW doctrine, even after your resurrection, or after surviving Armageddon, then the bar for survival into the New World isn’t set too high. Even the unrighteous get into the new world through the resurrection. They teach that you don’t have to be really good to make it through, you only have to be just good enough to pass the bar, because you will still have a thousand years to get it all right, to sort out the flaws of your imperfection. And best of all you won’t have to suffer persecution for the Christ anymore either, as we do in this world. That is far more pleasant to imagine than what we read in Hebrews 10:32-34 about what true Christians have had to endure in showing their love for Jesus.
“Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, [or shunned!] and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.” (Hebrews 10:32, 34 NLT)
Now we might be tempted to say, “Yes, but both JWs and some ex JWs have misunderstood the heavenly hope. If they really understood it, they wouldn’t feel that way.” But you see, that’s not the point. Our gaining salvation isn’t as easy as ordering food off a restaurant menu: “I’ll take the everlasting life with a side order of paradise earth, and for an appetizer, a little bit of frolicking with the animals. But hold the kings and priests. Got it?
By the end of this video, you will see that there is only one hope offered to Christians. Only one! Take it or leave it. Who the heck are we—any one of us—to decline a gift of grace from Almighty God? I mean, think about it, the sheer gall—the effrontery of true-blue Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even some ex JWs who have been deluded by an earthly resurrection hope and who will now actually decline a gift from God. I’ve come to see that while they disdain materialism, in their own way, Jehovah’s Witnesses are very materialistic. It’s just that their materialism is deferred materialism. They’re putting off getting things they want now in the hope of getting much better things after Armageddon. I’ve heard more than one Witness lust after some beautiful home they visited in the preaching work, saying, “That’s where I’m going to live after Armageddon!”
I knew of an “anointed” elder who gave a stern lecture to the congregation in a local needs part that there wouldn’t be a “land grab” after Armageddon, but the “princes” would be assigning houses to everyone – “So just wait your turn!” Of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful home, but if your salvation hope is focused on material desires, then you are missing the whole point of salvation, aren’t you?
When a Jehovah’s Witness says, like a petulant child, “But I don’t wanna go to heaven. I want to stay on the paradise earth,” isn’t he or she showing a total lack of faith in the goodness of God? Where is the trust that our heavenly Father would never give us something that we wouldn’t be unbelievably happy to receive? Where is the faith that He knows far better than we ever could just what would make us happy beyond our wildest dreams?
What our Heavenly Father has promised us is to be his children, Children of God, and to inherit everlasting life. And more than that, to work alongside his precious Son to rule in the kingdom of the heavens as kings and priests. We will be responsible for restoring sinful humanity back into the family of God -- Yes, there will be an earthly resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous. And our work will be a job that will last over 1,000 years. Talk about job security. After that, who knows what our Father has in store.
We should be able to stop this discussion right here. What we now know is all we really need to know. With that knowledge, founded on faith, we have what we need to carry on loyalty to the end.
However, our Father has chosen to reveal more than that to us and he has done so through his Son. What is necessary is to put faith in God and believe that whatever he is offering us will be unbelievably good for us to have. We should have no doubt about his goodness. Nevertheless, ideas that have been planted in our brains from our former religion can hinder our understanding and raise concerns that can undercut our joy at the prospect placed before us. Let us examine the various features of the salvation hope offered in the Bible and contrast that with the salvation hope offered by the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
We need to start by clearing our plate of certain misconceptions that might hinder us from fully understanding the good news of salvation. Let us start with the phrase “heavenly hope”. This is a term not found in scripture, though it occurs over 300 times in the Watch Tower Society’s publications. Hebrews 3:1 does speak of a “heavenly calling”, but that refers to the invitation from heaven which has been made through Christ. In a similar vein, the phrase “earthly paradise” is also not found in the Bible, though it does appear 5 times in footnotes in the New World Translation and is found almost 2000 times in the Society’s publications.
Should it matter that the phrases do not appear in the Bible? Well, isn’t that one of the objections which the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses raises against the Trinity? That the word itself is never found in Scripture. Well, applying the same logic to the words they use frequently to describe the salvation they promise to their flock, “heavenly hope”, “earthly paradise”, we should be discounting any interpretation based on those terms, shouldn’t we?
When I try to reason with people about the Trinity, I ask them to abandon any preconception. If they believe Jesus is God going in, it will color any understanding they have of any verse. The same can be said to Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding their salvation hope. So, and this is not going to be easy, whatever you thought before, whatever you envisioned before when you heard the phrase “heavenly hope” or “earthly paradise”, put it out of your mind. Can you try that please? Hit the delete key on that image. Let’s start with a blank slate so that our preconceptions don’t get in the way of acquiring Bible knowledge.
Christians are admonished to set their “sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand” (Col 3:1). Paul told Gentile Christians to “think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God.” (Colossians 3:2,3 NLT) Is Paul talking about the physical location of heaven? Does heaven even have a physical location or are we imposing material concepts on immaterial things? Notice, Paul doesn’t tell us to think about the things IN heaven, but OF heaven. I can’t envision things in a place I’ve never seen nor can see. But I can think of things that originate from a place if those things are present with me. What are the things OF heaven that Christians know about? Think on that.
Let’s consider what Paul is talking about when he says in the verses we just read from Colossians 3:2,3 that we have died to “this life,” and that our real life is hidden in Christ. What does he mean that we died to this life by setting our sights on the realities of heaven? He is talking about dying to our unrighteous lives characterized by carrying out our fleshly and selfish inclinations. We can get more insight about “this life” versus our “our real life” from another scripture, this time in Ephesians.
“…Because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:4-6 BSB)
So setting “our sights on the realities of heaven” has to do with the change of our unrighteous nature to a righteous one or from a fleshly outlook to a spiritual one.
The fact that verse 6 of Ephesians 2 (that we just read) is written in the past tense is very telling. It means that those who are righteous are already metaphorically sitting in the heavenly realms though still living on earth in their fleshly bodies. How is that possible? It happens when you belong to Christ. In other words, we understand that when we were baptized, our old lives were, in essence, buried with Christ so that we could also be raised to a new life with him (Col 2:12) because we trusted in the power of God. Paul puts it another way in Galatians:
“Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit.” (Galatians 5:24, 25 BSB)
”So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16 BSB)
“You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:9,10 BSB)
So here we can see the means, and make the connection, to why it is possible to become righteous. It is the action of the holy spirit upon us because we have faith in Christ. All Christians are offered the right to receive the holy spirit because they have been offered the right to be children of God by Christ’s own authority. That’s what John 1:12,13 teaches us.
Anyone who puts true faith in Jesus Christ (and not in men) will receive the holy spirit, and is guided by it as a guarantee, an installment, pledge, or token (as the New World Translation puts it) that they will receive the inheritance of everlasting life that God has promised them because of their faith in Jesus Christ as their savior, as their redeemer from sin and death. There are many Scriptures that make this clear.
“Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21,22 BSB)
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:26 BSB)
“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:14 BSB)
Now, going back to JW theology and the promise that the men of the Watch Tower Organization hold out to the “friends of God”” (the other sheep), we see an insurmountable problem arises. Just how it is that these “friends of God” can be called righteous since they openly admit that they don’t receive, and don’t want to receive, the anointing of the holy spirit? They can’t ever be righteous without God’s Spirit, can they?
“The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” (John 6:63, NLT)
“However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him.” (Romans 8:9)
How can any of us expect to be saved as a righteous Christian if we don’t belong to Christ? A Christian who does not belong to Christ is a contradiction in terms. The book of Romans clearly shows that if God’s spirit doesn’t dwell in us, if we have not been anointed by holy spirit, then we don’t have Christ’s spirit and we don’t belong to him. In other words, we’re not a Christian. Come on, the word itself means anointed one, christos in Greek. Look it up!
The Governing Body tells Jehovah’s Witnesses to watch out for apostates who will seduce them with false teachings. This is called projection. It means you’re projecting your problem or your action or your sin, onto others—accusing others of doing the very thing you practice. Brothers and sisters, don’t allow yourselves to be seduced by the false hope of an earthly resurrection of the righteous as God’s friends, but not his children, as doled out in the publications of the Watch Tower corporation. Those men want you to obey them and claim that your salvation rests on your support of them. But stop for a moment and remember God’s warning:
“Don't put your trust in human leaders; no human being can save you.” (Psalm 146:3)
Humans can never make you righteous.
Our only hope for salvation is explained in the book of Acts of the Apostles:
“Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven [besides Christ Jesus] given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:14
At this point, you might be asking: “Well, what exactly is the hope being held out to Christians?”
Are we going to be whisked off to heaven to some location far away from earth, never to return? What will we be like? What kind of body will we have?
Those are questions that will require another video to properly answer, so we’ll hold off answering them until our next presentation. For now, the main point we should be left with is this: Even if all we knew about the hope that Jehovah promises us is that we’d inherit eternal life, that should be enough. Our faith in God, faith that he is loving and will grant us all that we could desire and more, is all that we need right now. It is not for us to doubt the quality and desirability of God’s gifts. The only words out of our mouth should be words of enormous gratitude.
Thank you all again for listening and for continuing to support this channel. Your donations keep us going.
Archived Comments
We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2022-03-31 12:40:29
Hi Eric
pleased to say i have sorted out my password problems, so I can comment again. Yippee. Thanks for your help and patience. I look forward to your next article.
Leonardo
Comment by jara on 2022-03-29 18:40:11
Excellent video Meleti,
About those who prefer life on earth and do not yearn for the greatest prize that God has prepared of their own free will, I wonder: Do they have genuine faith in the existence of God and His Son in Heaven?
Imagining a future life on earth does not require much faith. We already live in it, to return to earth by resurrection is just believing what we see. And faith is believing in things that are not seen.
And although we do not know all the details of the heavenly call, being able to imagine now the enormous happiness of feeling the approval of Our Lord by making us part of his kingdom from him, as kings and priests, should automatically erase any other lesser interest.
I still don't deserve it, but to spurn that award would be ungrateful and unreasonable. If today we want to humbly serve others, how can we not desire eternal service in the closeness of our Father and of Christ?
Thanks
Comment by Zacheus on 2022-03-29 20:55:15
Deep as always.
Closer to home we have some nasty creatures locally who are trapping and killing pets if they wander.How I wish Jehovah had regard for these little ones.
Comment by Fani on 2022-03-30 03:09:04
Je ne comprends pas ce jugement que tu as envers nous parce que nous croyons vivre dans une terre paradisiaque, ce que Dieu avait prévu comme cadeau pour l'homme à l'origine.
En quoi je refuse le don de Dieu puisque c'est ce qu'il a décidé de donner à l'homme à l'origine ?
Son don n'était donc pas si bon que ça ? Il nous privait donc de quelque chose de bien meilleur ?
Le ciel est donc meilleur que la terre ? Dans ce cas, pourquoi des anges ont voulu venir sur la terre ?
Parce que ce qui compte n'est pas le lieu où nous vivons, mais la relation que nous avons avec notre Père céleste. Cette relation parfaite que devait avoir le 1er couple est possible peu importe où nous nous trouvons.
Je me moque d'une belle maison ou autres biens matériels !
Mon espérance est d'avoir une relation parfaite avec notre Créateur et son Fils, notre roi.
Ce n'est pas parce qu'on croit vivre sur cette terre, une des demeures appartenant à Dieu, que nous ne sommes pas enfants de Dieu.
Nous ne sommes pas amis de Dieu mais bien enfants de Dieu, nous recevons l'esprit de Dieu, nous prenons le pain et le vin.
Tu cites : "à cause de son grand amour pour nous, Dieu, qui est riche en miséricorde, nous a rendus vivants avec Christ même lorsque nous étions morts dans nos offenses. C'est par grâce que vous êtes sauvé ! Et Dieu nous a ressuscités avec Christ et nous a fait asseoir avec lui dans les lieux célestes en Jésus-Christ. ( Ephésiens 2:4-6 BSB)
Donc, tout en étant sur terre (puisqu'ils sont sur terre) on peut "être ressuscités avec Christ et être assis avec lui dans les lieux célestes en Jésus Christ".
Vouloir que la volonté de Dieu se "fasse sur la terre comme au ciel" ne me paraît pas être un manque de foi.
"Jara" demande si on a une foi authentique ?
Je laisse Dieu me juger.
Quoiqu'il en soit, mon but est de rester fidèle à Dieu car j'ai une totale confiance en lui ; donc mon espérance c'est le SALUT A LA VIE peu importe où. Je laisse l'esprit de Dieu agir en moi et je verrai où il m'emmènera.
En attendant, ce serait gentil de ne pas nous juger comme des chrétiens matérialistes. ☹️Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-03-30 09:10:05
Fani, I always appreciate your comments. In this case, I fear that you have misunderstood the intent of my words. I wasn't trying to insult those who have a desire to live on earth. Perhaps those making up the first resurrection will live on earth, or perhaps in heavenly places, I don't know. I would be quite happy to live on earth.
My point was that the prize of our salvation is not about location. It is as you say, it is about whom we will be with. The prize for Jehovah's Witnesses is not about being with Christ, but is about enjoying material life. There is nothing wrong with enjoying material life nor of having a beautiful home to live in. But if we put that in first place, and would prefer that to being with the Christ wherever and however he decides we should live, then we are being materialistic. That was the point I was trying to make.
Fani, j'apprécie toujours vos commentaires. Dans ce cas, je crains que vous n'ayez mal compris l'intention de mes propos. Je n'essayais pas d'insulter ceux qui désirent vivre sur terre. Peut-être que ceux qui composent la première résurrection vivront sur terre, ou peut-être dans des lieux célestes, je ne sais pas. Je serais très heureux de vivre sur terre.
Mon point était que le prix de notre salut n'est pas sur l'emplacement. C'est comme vous le dites, il s'agit de savoir avec qui nous serons. Le prix pour les Témoins de Jéhovah n'est pas d'être avec le Christ, mais de profiter de la vie matérielle. Il n'y a rien de mal à profiter de la vie matérielle ni à avoir une belle maison pour vivre. Mais si nous mettons cela en premier lieu et préférerions cela à être avec le Christ où et comment il décide que nous devrions vivre, alors nous sommes matérialistes. . C'était le point que j'essayais de faire valoir.Reply by Fani on 2022-03-30 10:12:51
Merci Eric de ta réponse.
Je comprends mieux et je suis tout à fait d'accord avec ce que tu dis.
Merci pour ton dur travail.
Nicole
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2022-04-01 18:21:56
I might suggest, Eric, that the prize for Jehovah's Witnesses is a thousand years under the same sort of arrangement as we have now, under men who cannot think for themselves or work out what is right, and will rely on pedanticism in reading the "new scrolls". It will prove therefore to be little more a spiritual paradise compared to what exists now, which it is not. If we cannot ask questions now, then we may well not be allowed to ask questions then.
Of course, that cannot be what happens, as it makes very little sense. Therefore the picture they have is, I believe, simply incorrect. I prefer to wait and see what is true in the course of time, whatever that might mean for me. Let us see what the will of God really is, if we cannot be sure from our reading of his word.
Reply by jara on 2022-03-30 18:33:18
Fani, My comment was not a particular judgment but a general comment. I understand that intimate contact with false religion does not develop genuine faith but damages even the little faith a person had before entering it. Perhaps it is very hard to know this but it serves as a warning. In my case, this novelty of the heavenly call gave me instant happiness. I don't have better faith for that. I just wanted to share my feeling.
thanks
Comment by Maria on 2022-03-30 04:38:35
God knows our hearts and knows where we will function best and be happy, thats my faith. Its up to Him, and His Will be done.
Love Maria ?
Comment by hirdy46 on 2022-03-30 04:40:25
Yes the earthly paradise idea is for the earthly man
And the spiritual promise for the spiritual man
Earthly man cannot comprehend the spiritual whereas the spiritual man discerns both
Romans 8 sums this up for me ?
Life through the Spirit
? Elaine
Comment by Berean72 on 2022-03-30 14:18:17
Hello everyone with brotherly affection: I just wanted to briefly relate my experience. Unfortunately, my wife and I, who have been JWs for 23 years, are in Italy and every day, since I don't know much English, I dedicate myself to translate as best I can these texts of absolute wisdom and truth! Please Meleti to continue with your wonderful articles and if I may allow myself to ask, since I have known the truths of this site I can't stop crying and thanking Jehovah, If this year I wanted to do the commemoration with my wife away from the congregation how can I do? can I do it only with my wife at home in the evening? help me, I beg you with all my heart! I love you infinitely and all of you brothers in the site! Praise Jehovah and his Anointed forever....
Reply by Domine Ivimus on 2022-03-30 18:33:00
Alcuni (anche parecchi!) anni fa abitavo in Italia e mi ricordo un poco della lingua italiana. Anch'io e mia moglie ci stiamo "svegliando" diciamo. Abbiamo imparato tante cose attraverso questo sitio web. Coraggio, e saluti dall'Inghilterra
Reply by Donna on 2022-04-07 19:13:56
Wow just how I feel too. So encouraging.
Comment by Truthseeker46 on 2022-03-30 15:47:47
Hello, former JW here. Became involved through my mother, a grass widow (abandoned wife to you young whippersnappers) in the early 1950's so had no fatherly steadying influence.
Your writings and videos have been an eye-opener for me over the past few years.
Always had doubts about the 144k. Didn't understand it. Always believed the resurrection was the key issue (looking from a human standpoint).
Never thought I could measure up to the required JW standard so left the organisation at a fairly early stage and proceeded down what is commonly called a "checkered career".
However I retained many JW beliefs, to the point where I consistently refused a number of blood transfusions while undergoing life-threatening situations.
My question is; if a believer were to be denied the "first resurrection of the righteous" due to their personal inadequacy/failings, would they likely be denied the "second prize" of the "resurrection of the unrighteous to judgement"?. or might that one "be saved, but as through the flames"?.
I hope my uneducated writing makes sense.
Comment by marielle on 2022-03-31 04:27:22
Il n’y aura pas seulement une résurrection terrestre pour les injustes, puisque Jésus nous dit :
Matthieu 5 : 5
« Heureux ceux qui sont doux de caractère, puisqu’ils hériteront de la terre ».
Nous voulons appartenir à Christ et être ressuscités dans la ressemblance de sa résurrection, (Romains 6 : 5)
Nous les vivants, serons emportés avec lui dans le ciel et nous serons ainsi toujours avec le Seigneur. I Thess 4 : 15-17
Ce moment sera sans aucun doute extraordinaire, quand on considère ce que représente à notre échelle, la divinité de Christ, sa gloire, et la glorieuse création céleste.
Jésus réunit les croyants, ses rois et prêtres, son peuple, (I Pierre 2 : 7,9,10) comme les juifs qui auraient pu être nommés ainsi, s’ils avaient obéi à la loi de Dieu. (Exode 19 : 5,6).
Je comprends que la Nouvelle Jérusalem est ainsi composée des choisis, des justes, de son peuple, de tous ceux qui sont écrits dans le livre de vie Révélation 21 : 27 en opposition avec tous ceux qui n’y entrent pas, qui pratiquent le spiritisme ou le mensonge.
Que cette nouvelle Jérusalem descende du ciel et que l’ange dise « Voici je fais toute chose nouvelle, il n’y aura plus ni deuil, ni cri, ni douleur » ne me paraît pas incompatible avec une vie sur terre renouvelée, après avoir été réunis avec Christ.
L’image des arbres qui produisent 12 récoltes et sont pour la guérison des nations en Révélation 22 : 1,2 réconfortent nos cœurs humains.
Ce que nous serons n’a pas encore été manifesté (I Jean 2 : 2) Cependant, nous savons que lorsqu’il sera manifesté, nous serons semblables à lui, parce que nous le verrons tel qu’il est ».
Mais avoir un corps spirituel, immortel, ou venant du ciel, ne veut pas dire vivre dans le ciel.
De même que Pierre dit que notre héritage « est tenu en réserve dans le ciel » ne veut pas dire non plus vivre dans le ciel. (I Pierre 1 : 4)
Que nous fassions l’expérience d’être réunis avec Christ me paraît clair, mais j’ai tendance à penser, qu’après cela, nous bénéficierons éternellement de cette terre unique dans l’univers, lorsque cette Nouvelle Jérusalem descendra du ciel, pour que les rois et prêtres règnent sur la terre.
Mais je n’ai pas de certitude absolue sur ce sujet épineux qui divise tant de chrétiens.Reply by Frankie on 2022-04-09 18:23:12
Hi Marielle,
Thank you for your verses. I think the same thing as you - glorified Christians will not be limited to the heavenly realm. The Lord Jesus showed us what it means to have a spiritual body when Jehovah resurrected him.
The spiritual body will allow us unimaginable things. We will be able to see our beloved Heavenly Father, Jehovah, face to face (1 John 3:2), which would not be possible for people in mortal bodies (1 John 4:12). We will be able to walk the earth and drink from the fruit of the vine (Matt 26:29). Here on Earth we will be able to help the resurrected unrighteous to know our Lord and his Father (Rev 5:10). Places on earth and in heaven will be accessible to us (2 Cor. 5:8). No door will stop us (John 20:19). In the house of our heavenly Father, we will have many rooms to be with Jesus (John 14:2-3). Our citizenship is in heaven (Phil 3:20) because we are not of this world (John 17:16) - we have a "heavenly passport" (holy Spirit).
My heavenly Father knows me from the beginning and He loves me and He knows best what is good for me. So I will gladly accept anything from Him and be anywhere.
And what will happen when the 1000 years are over and the holy Jerusalem descends to Earth? I certainly don't know either, but at least I dare to describe my imperfect knowledge, because I don't know more than I know :o) .
The reign of Christ with glorified Christians (Rev 5:10) will last for 1,000 (long period) years. After 1,000 years and after final elimination of evil, the task of correcting all things in heaven and on earth to unite everything in Christ will be accomplished. (Eph 1:10)
Satan, previously bound for 1,000 years, will be released and eventually destroyed (20:7-10). Judgment will be executed on those who have not yet received God's government and Jesus Christ (20:11-15). The new heaven and the new earth will be definitively cleansed of evil.
New Jerusalem descends from heaven. Where is he going? Definitely to Earth, because John, standing on great and high mountain, sees it descending from top to bottom (Rev 21:10). A thousand years are over and kings and priests will continue to serve God, Jehovah will be their light and they will rule forever and ever (Rev 22:3-5). The Lord Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26) and will sit with his Father on the Father's throne (Rev 3:21).
All who are written in the Lamb's book of life (Rev 21:27) and who have recognized Jehovah and Jesus within 1,000 years (Rev 20:12,15) enter the city and join the chosen Christians who form the new ("which is above") Jerusalem (Gal 4:26), which descended to Earth. This would fulfill Jesus' words in Matt 5:5.
The glorified Christians will have access to heaven and earth through spiritual bodies. I don't know what kind of bodies will have those who passed the test at the end of 1000 years.
The river of the water of life and the trees of life (Rev 22:2) may be intended for the originally unrighteous, because the kings and priests that form "upper Jerusalem" have already received eternal life after the second Coming of Christ (Rev 20:6). Or maybe it's a symbol of a constant stream of life coming from God for all.
Nobody knows what will happen next. We can only look forward to it, because "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor 2:9). These are literally "unimaginable" promises. I'm looking forward to it and I'm sure you too.
Frankie
Comment by PierrotSud on 2022-03-31 07:28:19
Thank you Eric for your reflection.
Many of us grew up and were taught with this idyllic image of Heaven on earth as expressed by the Watchtower.
It is true that it was like a "carrot" for many of us, myself included, as I thought it was the reward for doing the will not of the Father and Jesus but in fact of the organization.
Since I have understood the real hope, that of being a child of God, it is quite a change in my mind, a total sweep.
I have confidence in the promise of Jesus that we.
Apostle Peter says in John 6:68:
“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life".
I think he already understood that it is his faith in Jesus that is enough, whatever Jesus wants to lead us, he is our shepherd, and we follow him.
But since God created us in his image, we need to imagine.
So, in the heaven, what is it exactly for us?
And so, I think we have to accept our hope, even if it is vague, because we don't know exactly how it will happen.
In any case, we will work with christ to help the unrighteous humans on earth to be redeemed by him. Then maybe we will go back and forth, like "Jacob's ladder" (Genesis 28:12,13), even if it was for the angels. We do not know.
But I agree with you that we need to get out of this materialistic scheme, which for many "pollutes" their faith.
Moreover I learned that Revelation 5:10 was changed in the last New World Translation. In the French translation, the verse is rendered as follows:
"Et tu as fait d’eux un royaume, et des prêtres pour notre Dieu, et ils doivent être rois et gouverner* la terre. »
The asterisk indicates: "Ou « doivent régner sur »."
Yet in the 1995 New World Translation, the word "sur" is in the main text.
So the word "sur" disappeared.
Even if they put the word in the margin, why delete it from the main text?
This is misleading and leads our brothers and sisters, if they have not done their research, to understand that the Anointed Ones will rule the earth from Heaven.
So for many, the heavenly hope is not for them, because they want to stay on earth and this verse pushes them to believe in this sense.
Thank you Eric
Pierrot
Comment by mattlunsford on 2022-04-02 11:34:24
JW's have lost sight of the Ransom for All, (the Universal Application of the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus Christ). This Ransom sets all men and women (past and present) free from the penalty of Adam's sin which is death. This is an undeserved kindness provided by God and all will receive benefit from the gift.1 John 2:2 Basically, everyone will get a second chance in the (Resurrection of the Righteous and the Unrighteous) Acts 24:15 to exercise faith in Jesus and receive the reward of everlasting life. John 3:16 Jesus said that even the wicked sodomites and those who were then rejecting him would "Rise in the Judgement" thus indicating a future hope of Life for All. Matt 11:23.24 Because of their indoctrination and misguidance, JW's have a very narrow view of salvation, (Not all of mankind, Not Christians in general, but only JW's in good standing with the congregation.....) In my opinion, I think that the above stated Good news about Jesus Christ is the message that we are to share with everyone. Everyone will live and stand on their own two feet again but will have to learn the way of love through Jesus Christ to have Life without End. John 14:6 Romans 10:13,14 Thanks to our Heavenly Father and our King Jesus Christ. Amen
Comment by Truthseeker46 on 2022-04-02 14:18:39
My question is; if a believer were to be denied the “first resurrection" of the righteous due to their personal inadequacy/failings, would they likely be denied the “second prize” of the “resurrection of the unrighteous to judgement”?, or might that one “be saved, but as through the flames" by being granted the "second" resurrection”?.
Comment by Charlie Horse on 2022-04-02 23:54:22
Salvation and eternal life that goes with it is more than enough.
Comment by Donna on 2022-04-07 19:06:37
There is a scripture regarding this and it said that in the resurrection we WOULD HAVE OUR HEARTS DESIRE.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-04-08 07:46:20
There is nothing in Scripture that tells us what God's purpose is for humanity once the 1000 years has ended and we are all once again in the family of God. We'll just have to wait to see. ?
Comment by Donna on 2022-04-07 19:17:36
Don't we all go to heaven when the 1000 years is over ?
Comment by Slepajula on 2022-04-10 04:15:48
Dziękuję. Od dawna podobnie myślę, jest to temat dyskusji w naszym domu.
Comment by Dominique on 2022-04-12 08:29:53
Juan 14:1-4. Donde este yo tambien este ustedes.
Comment by Dominique on 2022-04-12 08:33:10
Juan 14:1-4.
Comment by simon1288 on 2022-04-12 10:33:18
As far as resurrection is concerned, will all humans who ever lived be resurrected? What will be the basis for judgment in the future?
Comment by pedro on 2022-11-27 13:04:25
il y a deux jours j'ai réfléchis à l'espérance du chrétien ,au ciel ou sur terre?
Je répond :
Révélation 7et 14 sont clair et sans ambiguïté ceux qui auront l'espérance céleste seront de 1440000 !
Si ce chiffre n'était pas littérale alors pourquoi le préciser et ne pas juste parler d'une grande foule premier point.
Dans la bible le mot oint signifie engendré ,or qui engendre les oints si ce n'est Jéhovah lui même et personne d'autre donc ce n'est pas l'humain qui choisi mais Jéhovah seul qui l'attire .
Quand ces oints seront-ils au coté de jésus ?
I corinthiens15 v 52 et 53 précise que cela aura lieu durant la dernière trompette
Or quand sonne la dernière trompette ?
Révélation ch 11 v 15 nous la situe lors du 3ém malheur c'est à dire un peu avant la destruction de Babylone et la destruction de la bête sauvage et le faux prophète ( Révélation ch 20 )
Maintenant et c'est là que les choses se compliquent ,c'est ce que dit Matthieu ch 25 v 31 à 46 la fameuse séparation des brebis et des chèvres
Quand se déroule cette séparation ?
Il semble que cela se produise après l'enlèvement des oints au ciel
quand Jésus s'assoie sur son trône ( v 31 ) et là on ne parle pas de ceux qui sont choisis à l'instar des oints qui eux le sont, mais nous parlons de toutes les nations devant Jésus !
Voilà qui démontre qu'une grande foule survivra à harMaguédôn
étant déclaré juste .