Following the release in English and Spanish of my last video on the question of whether or not it’s proper to pray to Jesus, I got a fair bit of pushback. Now, I expected that from the Trinitarian movement because, after all, to trinitarians, Jesus is God Almighty. So, of course, they want to pray to Jesus. However, there were also sincere Christians who, while not accepting the Trinity as a valid understanding of the nature of God, still feel that prayer to Jesus is something which the Children of God should practice.
It got me to wondering if I’m missing something here. If that, for me, it just feels wrong to pray to Jesus. But we are not to be guided by our feelings, though they do count for something. We are to be guided by holy spirit which Jesus promised would lead us into all the truth.
However, when that one has come, even the Spirit of the truth, it will lead you into all truth because it shall not speak from itself, but whatever it shall hear, it shall speak. And it shall disclose to you the things to come. (John 16:13 A Faithful Version)
So I asked myself if my reticence toward praying to Jesus was just a carryover from my days as a Jehovah’s Witness? Was I giving in to deeply buried bias? On the one hand, I clearly recognized that the Greek word denoting “prayer” and “praying” is never used in the Christian Scriptures in connection with Jesus, but only in connection with our Father. On the other hand, as a number of correspondents pointed out to me, we see instances in the Bible where faithful Christians are calling out to and petitioning our Lord Jesus.
For example, we know that Stephen, in Acts 7:59, made a petition to Jesus whom he saw in a vision as he was being stoned to death. “While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Likewise, Peter had a vision and heard Jesus’ voice from heaven giving him instructions and he responded to the Lord.
“…there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. (Acts 10:13-16).
Then there is the apostle Paul who, while not giving us the circumstances, tells us that he implored Jesus three times to be relieved of a certain thorn in his flesh. “Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.” (2 Corinthians 12:8)
Yet in each of these instances, the Greek word for “prayer” is not used.
That seems to be significant to me, but then, am I making too much of the absence of a word? If each situation is describing actions associated with praying, does the word “prayer” have to be used in the context for it to be considered a prayer? One would think not. One might reason that as long as what is being described is a prayer, then we don’t actually have to read the noun “prayer” or the verb “to pray” for it to constitute a prayer.
Still, something was niggling at the back of my mind. Why does the Bible never use the verb “to pray” nor the noun “prayer” except in connection with communication to God our Father?
Then it struck me. I was breaking a cardinal rule of exegesis. If you’ll recall, exegesis is the method of Bible study where we let Scripture interpret itself. There are a number of rules we follow and the first one is to begin our research with a mind clear of bias and preconception.
What bias of mine, what preconception was I bringing to this study of prayer? I realized that it was the belief that I knew what a prayer was, that I fully understood the Biblical definition of the term.
I see this as an excellent example of how a belief or an understanding can be so deeply entrenched that we don’t even think of questioning it. We just take it as a given. For instance, prayer is part of our religious tradition. No matter what religious background we may come from, we all know what a prayer is. When Hindus invoke the name of one of their many gods in worship, they are praying. When Muslims call out to Allah, they are praying. When orthodox rabbis genuflect repeatedly before the wailing wall in Jerusalem, they are praying. When trinitarian Christians petition their triune Godhead, they are praying. When faithful men and women of old, like Moses, Hannah, and Daniel, invoked the name of “Yahweh,” they were praying. Whether to the true God or to false gods, prayer is prayer.
Basically, it’s SSDD. At least a version of SSDD. Same Speech, Different Deity.
Are we being guided by the power of tradition?
One noteworthy thing about the teaching of our Lord is his precision and his judicious use of language. There is no sloppy speech with Jesus. If we were supposed to pray to him, then he would have told us to do that, wouldn’t he? After all, up to that point, Israelites had only prayed to Yahweh. Abraham prayed to God, but he never prayed in the name of Jesus. How could he? It was unprecedented. Jesus wouldn’t come on the scene for another two millennia. So if Jesus was introducing a new element to prayer, specifically, that it should include him, he would have had to say so. In fact, he would have had to make that very clear, because he was overcoming a very powerful prejudice. Jews only prayed to Yahweh. Pagans prayed to multiple Gods, but not Jews. The power of the law to affect Jewish thinking and create a prejudice—albeit, a correct one—is evident by the fact that the Lord—our Lord Jesus Christ, king of kings—had to tell Peter not once, not twice, but three times that he could now eat the flesh of animals Israelites considered to be unclean, like pork.
It follows, therefore, that if Jesus was now going to tell these tradition-bound Jews that they could and should pray to him, he would have had a lot of prejudice to slice through. Vague statements were not going to cut it.
He did introduce two new elements to prayers, but he did so with clarity and repetition. For one, he told them that prayers would now have to be offered to God in the name of Jesus. The other change to prayer which Jesus made is stated at Matthew 6:9,
“This, then, is how you should pray: “our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name…”
Yes, his disciples now had the privilege to pray to God, not as their sovereign, but as their personal Father.
Do you think that instruction only applied to his immediate listeners? Of course not. Do you think he meant humans of every religion? Was he referring to Hindus or Romans who worshipped pagan Gods? Of course not. Was he even referring to the Jews in general? No. He was speaking to his disciples, to those who accepted him as the Messiah. He was speaking to those who would form the body of Christ, the new temple. The spiritual temple that would replace the physical one in Jerusalem, because that one was already marked for destruction.
This is important to understand: Jesus was speaking to the children of God. Those who make up the first resurrection, the resurrection to life (Revelation 20:5).
The first rule of exegetical bible study is: Start your research with a mind clear of bias and preconceptions. We need to put everything on the table, assume nothing. Therefore, we cannot presume to know what prayer is. We cannot take the common definition of the word for granted, assuming that what is defined traditionally by Satan’s world and across the religions that dominate the minds of men is what Jesus had in mind. We need to ensure that we have in mind the same definition that Jesus is communicating to us. To determine that, we must utilize another rule of exegesis. We must consider the audience. To whom was Jesus speaking? To whom was he revealing these new truths? We’ve already agreed that his new direction to pray in his name and to address God as our Father were instructions intended for his disciples who would become the Children of God.
With that in mind, and quite out of the blue, I thought of another Scripture. One of my favorite Bible passages, in fact. I’m sure that some of you are already there with me. For others, this may seem irrelevant at first, but you’ll soon see the connection. Let’s look at 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death. For God has put everything under His feet. But when it says “everything” is put under Him, it is obvious that He who puts everything under Him is the exception. And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28 Holman Christian Standard Bible)
This last phrase has always thrilled me. “So that God may be all in all.” Most translations go for a literal word for word rendering of the Greek. Some however engage in a little interpretation:
New Living Translation: “will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.”
Good News Translation: “God will rule completely over all.”
Contemporary English Version: “Then God will mean everything to everyone.”
New World Translation: “that God may be all things to everyone.”
There is no reason for us to be confused by what it means to say that God will be “all in all.” Look at the immediate context, another rule of exegesis. What we are reading about here is the ultimate solution to mankind’s woes: The restoration of all things. First, Jesus is resurrected. “The first fruits.” Then, those who belong to Christ. Who are they?
Earlier, in this letter to the Corinthians, Paul reveals the answer:
“. . .all things belong to YOU; in turn YOU belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:22, 23)
Paul is speaking to the Children of God who belong to him. They are resurrected to immortal life when Christ returns, during his advent or kingly parousia. (1 John 3:2 BSB)
Next, Paul jumps over the thousand- year millennial reign to the end, when all human rule has been quashed and even the death resulting from sin has been undone. At that point in time, there are no enemies of God or Man left. It is only then, at the end, that King Jesus subjects himself to the one who subjected all things to him, so that God can be all things to everyone. I know the New World Translation gets criticized a lot, but every Bible translation has its faults. I think in this instance, its interpretive rendering is accurate.
Ask yourself, what is Jesus restoring here? What was lost that needed to be restored. Eternal life for humans? No. That’s a byproduct of what was lost. What he is restoring is what Adam and Eve lost: Their familial relationship with Yahweh as their Father. The everlasting life they had and which they threw away was a byproduct of that relationship. It was their inheritance as children of God.
A loving father isn’t distant from his children. He doesn’t abandon them and leave them without guidance and instruction. Genesis shows Yahweh spoke with his children regularly, in the breezy part of the day—likely late afternoon.
“They heard the voice of Yahweh God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Yahweh God among the trees of the garden.” (Genesis 3:8 World English Bible)
The heavenly realm and the earthly one were linked back then. God spoke with his human children. He was Father to them. They spoke to him and he answered back. That was lost. They were cast out of the Garden. The restoration of what was lost then has been a long process. It entered a new phase when Jesus came. From that point forward, it became possible to be born again, adopted as children of God. We can now talk to God not as our King, Sovereign, or Almighty Deity, but as our personal Father. “Abba Father.”
When the time came to completion, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. (Galatians 4:4-7 HCSB)
But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment. There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26, 27 HCSB)
Now that Jesus has revealed these new aspects of prayer, we can see that the common definition given prayer by the religions of the world doesn’t quite fit. They view prayer as petitioning and praising their deity. But for the Children of God, it isn’t about what you say, but who you say it to. Prayer is communication between a child of God and God himself, as our Father. Since there is only one true God and one Father of all, prayer is a word that refers only to communication with that heavenly Father. That is the Biblical definition as I can see it.
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 ESV)
Since Jesus is not our Father, we do not pray to him. We can talk to him, of course. But the word “prayer” describes the unique form of communication that exists between our heavenly Father and his adopted human children.
Prayer is a right we, as the children of God, have but we must offer it through the door to God, which is Jesus. We pray in his name. We will not need to do that once we are resurrected to life because then we will see God. Jesus words in Matthew will be fulfilled.
“The pure in heart are blessed, for they will see God.
The peacemakers are blessed, for they will be called sons of God.
Those who are persecuted for righteousness are blessed, for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.”
(Matthew 5:8-10 HCSB)
But for the rest of humankind that relationship of Father/child will have to wait until the end as Paul describes.
When all the enemies of God and Men are eliminated, then there will be no need to pray to God in Jesus’ name because then the Father/child relationship will have been fully restored. God will be all to all, all things to everyone, which means Father to everyone. He will not be distant. Prayer will not be one-sided. As Adam and Eve spoke with their Father and he spoke with them and guided them, so Yahweh, our God and our Father will speak with us. The Son’s job will be accomplished. He will surrender his Messianic Crown and subject himself to the one who subjected all things to him so that God will be all to all.
Prayer is the way that the children of God talk to their Dad. It is a unique form of communication between Father and child. Why would you want to water it down, or confuse the issue. Who would want that? Who benefits by subverting that relationship? I think we all know the answer to that.
In any case, this is what I understand the Scriptures to be saying on the subject of prayer. If you feel differently, then act according to your conscience.
Thank you for listening and to all those who continue to support our work, a most heart-felt thank you.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Zacheus on 2022-10-08 21:57:11
I got a bit lost toward the end here.
It would help in your discourses if you used 'dot' points.
- but as with the Lords prayer I will still intend to pray it.
Comment by Christi Nachfolger on 2022-10-09 01:42:25
Thank you for your clarification in your video. We follow our Lord Jesus in everything. However, worship is due only to His Father, as He taught us. Only the adversary of God wanted to be worshipped. Jesus strongly opposed this request of the devil, because worship is only due to His Father.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2022-10-09 04:58:02
That was very clear Eric. This is a subject that I have wondered about for some time. You make it clear that we can talk to Jesus, but that does not make it prayer. Prayer is to God. It is difficult subject because we do not have a direct two way conversation with Jehovah. And I would not expect that.
Not sure on two points:-
A. When Jehovah spoke in the breezy part of the day, was that actually Jehovah or was it an angel representing him ? Does that change anything anyway.
B. At 2 Corinthians 12:8 , where Paul entreats the Lord, which Lord is it ? Is there enough in the passage to say this was Jesus, or was he praying to God ?
Otherwise, many thanks for such a clear explanation of the subject.
Love to all hereReply by Frankie on 2022-10-15 18:21:59
Hi dear Leonardo. I will try to answer your two questions.
A. From this verse, I don't know how it was, because God can speak to people in different ways - directly (Matt 17:5), or through angels (Gen 18:1-2) or people (e.g. prophets). But if it is information from Jehovah, then it does not matter how it was delivered, because He Himself will ensure its correctness.
B. I think that at 2 Corinthians 12:8 Paul entreats Jesus Christ directly. This is explained in verse 9, where it is written “ .... My grace is sufficient for you, for my [Lord's] power is made perfect in weakness ... so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”
May our Lord strengthen you in your fight for the truth.
Frankie
Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-10-11 16:32:47
Well done Eric well done
One request I will ask, I wish you could revisit Matthew 24 again.
Your brother in ChristReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-10-11 16:45:42
All thirteen videos are still up on my YouTube channel, but I will be writing a book as well on that chapter.
Comment by ZbigniewJan on 2022-10-12 15:42:19
Hello Dear Eric.
Thank you for taking up the topic of prayer or communication with Jesus Christ.
Our Heavenly Father drew us to his only-begotten Son. John 6:44. In verse 45, Jesus says, "... Anyone who hears the Father and accepts his teachings will come to me." If we came to Jesus as children of God, we must have some kind of relationship with Him. What kind of relationship?
One would have to say to him: hello, I believed in your name, I love you, I appreciate you and thank you for your death for me.
In the previous lecture, you said that you don't know how to turn to Jesus. Maybe someone will try: hello brother!
I think the time will come for that when we are New Creatures, when we meet Christ face to face and drink a cup of wine together. Today, when I came to Jesus with the help of the Father, I greet Him: hello my Lord!
Because I believed that the messiah of Yahweh is my Lord, that when I finish the course of life on Earth, Jesus sitting at the right hand of God will call me and call me to a new life. John 5:26. Jesus is the source of Life.
The source of life is an attribute of divinity. As the only-begotten Son, the Logos was called the only-begotten god. As the Heavenly Son of Man, he was blessed even more gloriously than before he came to Earth John 17: 1-5
For 60 years I was influenced by the ideology of JW. In this ideology, Jesus can only be of a divine nature, but he cannot be called God. 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Paul says: the god of this world blinds the minds of unbelievers, lest the light of Christ's glory shine upon them.
Today I call my Lord God
The Son does not compete with his Father, They give themselves the highest quality love.
When I started talking to my Lord, I felt guilty for not talking to my Father. I wanted to apologize to the Father for speaking to his Son. I found myself asking the Father to convey my thoughts to his Son. But the Father brought me to his Son.
Paul says: Rom 14: 7-9 we live and die for the Lord.
I think we must perpetuate the attitude of the need to communicate not only with our Father, who is God Almighty, but also with our Lord, who is God at the right hand of the Father.
Rev 5: 12,13 I will quote 13 "Then I heard all the creation that is in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them, crying out to him who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. - blessing, honor, glory and power for ever and ever. "
As I celebrate the moment of Christ's death, I thank the Father for the concept and plan of the salvation of mankind, but I also thank Christ directly for his great act of love for me and for all. I agree with Stephen saying to Christ before his death: receive my spirit.
Thank you, Eric, for your work, which I use very often when I discuss Christ, His preexistence, His identity, and the right to give Him the glory He deserves.
Greetings to you Erik !!!
Greetings to all brothers in Christ !!!
May the Almighty Father and our Lord support us.
ZbigniewReply by Frankie on 2022-10-12 18:39:24
Excellent thoughts dear Zbigniew. That is why our Lord Jesus did not oppose Thomas when Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God". (John 20:28)
In my opinion, there are two reasons for this.
A.
The father-son relationship is the key to understanding the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus as well as the relationship between a Christian and Jehovah. Jesus is the only-begotten Son, He has no siblings (compare with Luke 7:12).
Jesus was not created, He was begotten. Likewise I was begotten. My dear father created many things in his life, but he begot me, he did not created me. And then I also created many things together with him in my life. My father was a man, I am also a man. Jehovah is God and His only begotten Son is also God. Jesus is God "genetically" (John 1:1).
B.
Moreover, Jesus has all power in heaven and in earth, which was given to Him by His Father (Matt 28:19).
It is similar to when a father who owns a company temporarily hands over the management of his company to his son. The father still has absolute power, but he trusts his son so much that he entrusts him with the management of his company. All employees must obey the son, his orders are the same as his father's, and his word has the same weight. They respect the son as much as the father. For them, the son represents his father.
So nowadays, Jesus acts as God, with all authority and competencies until He again submits to His Father (1 Cor 15:27-28; 1 Pet 3:22). And unfortunately, the excellence and glory of Jesus (John 17:5) was trampled to dust in the environment of the WT Organization. Jesus is God for us by virtue of His current position.
That is my current understanding. My addressing is as following (examples).
My heavenly Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, thank you for every minute of my life. Give me your holy spirit to live as you want, and raise me, so that I may be your obedient child and give you joy as a child to their father. You are a solid rock that I can always lean on in my moments of weakness. I thank You for Your Son Jesus Christ, by faith in whom I can live forever. You are omnipotent, wise, righteous and you are love. It is a blessing to have such a God and heavenly Father.
Lord Jesus! Lead me along the way of life, because you are the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6). I am your sheep and you are my good shepherd (John 10:14) and with you I am safe (John 10:28). You are my life (Coloss 3:4) because you died for me (2 Cor 5:15). I'm asking you for faith (Luke 17:5) so that I can survive the upcoming difficult times by your side (Matt 28:20). Come Lord (Rev 22:20), I know you will not be late (Hebrews 10:37). And when you come, you alone judge me, none of the people, because whatever you say about me, it will be true (John 8:16). I am not afraid of Your judgment because I love You, my Lord (1 John 4:18).
Amen.
FrankieReply by Christi Nachfolger on 2022-10-13 00:54:07
Dear Frankie,
your suggested prayer goes too far for me because you switch from Jehovah to His Son during your prayer. In doing so, you make Jesus the object of worship. Only the devil wanted that role, not Jesus. Paul wrote about this in Philippians 2:6 (ESV): "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,".
We know that Jesus will give us everything we ask for in his name. We can begin every thanksgiving, and especially all petitions, with the words: "My Father, in the name of your Son I ask (or thank) you...". Then, when we want to thank our Father for his Son, we can list all the reasons that come to mind. So too with our petitions.
All parts in such a prayer must not become cliché. For many, the sending of prayer is sometimes such a cliché when they say, "In Jesus' name, Amen."
We must always be aware of the importance of the privilege of prayer. In this prayer, our Lord Jesus plays an important role. He is our mediator and our link to God. However, He is not the Almighty God who wants to be worshipped. We always pray to Jehovah through Jesus. Is there any greater honour for a creature in heaven when our heavenly Father hears in prayer how we honour his Son when we pray to him in the name of his Son? In doing so, we honour not only Jesus but in turn his Father, for we show faith not only in his Son but also faith in the name of Jeus, which means Jehovah saves, or Jehovah owns salvation.Reply by Frankie on 2022-10-13 16:19:47
Thank you dear Christi Nachfolger for your response. Please allow me to explain the conclusion of my comment, which I probably did not describe well.
I just wanted to mention some things (among many others) that I mention in my prayers. It is neither a suggestion for a prayer nor a model prayer - I would never allow myself to do that. Each of us prays according to the God’s Spirit that is in them.
Perhaps the “amen” at the end made it possible to understand both addressing Jehovah and Jesus as a complete prayer. No. That “amen” only applied to some of the things mentioned (as an example) that can be asked for and for which thanks can be given. Thank you for reading my comment carefully.
I totally agree with you that we should offer our prayers to our heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23; Ephesians 5:20; Colossians 3:17) and I always do that. Your thoughts in this direction are excellent. By the way, this is a good argument against the Trinity - I pray to one person through another person.
The essential information in my comment is contained in the explanation of the divine nature of Jesus Christ in points A and B as I understand it.
God bless you my brother.
Frankie.
Reply by ZbigniewJan on 2022-10-14 18:02:09
Hello Frankie !!!
Thanks for your comment. I am glad that we are so unanimous. If our Father draws us to his Son, then we must contact him, thank him, ask for, beg, or give him the glory that is due to him. Jesus said in John 5:23: whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father. The Father is not jealous of our relationship with his Son.
For me, Paul's relationship with Christ is proof of the need to communicate with my Lord. 2Tim 4:18 the Lord will deliver me from every wicked work and save me into His heavenly kingdom. Glory to him for ever and ever. Amen.
You have captured the thought wonderfully: our relationship with the Father and the Son is a reflection of how God's Spirit guides us.
I want to cry out loud like Paul in 2 Corinthians 16:22 If anyone does not love Christ let him be accursed. Come our Lord!
May our Father and our Lord surround you with love and care, Frankie.
Your brother in Christ Zbigniew.Reply by Frankie on 2022-10-15 17:55:31
Dear Zbigniew, the Jesus’ witness.
Thanks for nice words and wishes. Communication with Jesus is important. No one can stop me from talking to my Lord and my brother. You quoted a powerful verse - 2 Tim 4:18 - Christ is our savior:
“This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12).
You also wrote important thing: “The Father is not jealous of our relationship with his Son.” Witnesses under the influence of GB sometimes object that emphasizing Jesus diminishes the importance of Jehovah. But they do not understand that Jehovah cannot be jealous of his Son, because it was Jehovah's will for Christ to become the central point of mankind's salvation (1 Colossians 1:19-20).
Thank you Zbigniew for you encouraging response. God bless you.
Frankie
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-10-13 09:02:27
Thank you ZbigniewJan
Comment by PierrotSud on 2022-10-14 03:54:24
Thank you Eric.
My thoughts are clearer today because of your reflection. Indeed, we have an opinion about prayer that we have forged in many religions, including for many of us Jehovah's Witnesses, as a ritual.
But being children of God, do we address him as ritual? It would be strange if we did the same with our carnal father.
Jesus began telling his disciples how to pray with: "In this manner therefor.."
So it is in a simple, father/child way that we are to speak to him, to pray to him simply. It is only to our Father, otherwise Jesus would surely have said, "you must pray to me like this."
Yet he did not say that.
So yes, we can speak to Jesus his son, but it is only to God that we address our prayers.
Even as children of God, we are still newborns.
Peter says in 1 Peter 2:2 NKJV
"As newborn children, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby."
Pierre
Comment by rusticshore on 2022-10-14 06:01:23
Wonderful. Now, at the risk of appearing as though I am splitting hairs - is there a difference between praying, and talking?
There appears, at least to me, no ambiguity when it comes to specific verses in the NT in which a number of faithful ones pleaded with Jesus (some of which you briefly highlighted). One is when Paul pleaded with Jesus in 2 Cor 12:8. Paul certainly knew that Jesus could plead his cause to the Father - perhaps even grant Paul's petition immediately without consulting the Father... for "all authority (emphasis on "authority") have been given me in heaven and in the earth." (Matt 2818).
While I work to keep in mind the enormity of reverence and position the Father (Jah) deserves and owns, I also keep in mind the exalted position given the Son by the Father. Jesus is both described as Judge (Acts 10:42, John 5:22), and as one who works (as an attorney) to intercede in our behalf (Heb 7:25). In a court setting, who is the one who advocates? It is the judge. Jesus appears to fulfill two rolls as one who intercedes (as High Priest), and one who also has authority to judge.
This raises the question, if Jesus judges, why is it necessary for him to plead our cause to the Father, who clearly exists as the ultimate judge. It would appear to me, based upon a number of scriptures, that Jesus has authority to judge specific things as given him by the Father, such as the authority to judge those resurrected.
At least for me, while I render my prayers to the Father in Jesus' name, as scripturally ordained, I also deeply appreciate the role the Son plays, as authorized and sanctioned by the Father Himself. Hence, I see no ambiguity nor scriptural reason why we cannot or may not speak to Jesus, which I do at times. While rendering my prayers to the Father, I do so in the name of Jesus.
I work to keep a very important rule in mind when considering things of this nature. If the bible isn't explicit.... dismiss it - less we go "beyond what is written." This works in most cases. The bible does NOT say or suggest we cannot speak to the son. Quite the opposite in fact. Again, we have ample proof of those who directly spoke to Jesus, most importantly, after Jesus was actively fulfilling his highly ordained position in the heavens.Reply by rusticshore on 2022-10-14 09:26:20
Proviso on my statement above:
There is debate on whether Paul was addressing our "Lord" Jesus, or Jah in 2 Cor 12:8. However, there are a few reasons why I believe he was likely addressing Jesus, one of which is the following verse. Verse 9 appears to qualify that Paul was addressing Jesus.
Also, while the "not explicit, dismiss it" argument appears to be circular... in this case I believe it fits, for the reasons I state in the argument.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-10-15 08:11:38
I too believe Paul is talking to Jesus at 2 Corinthians 12:8.
However, I don't believe that Paul expected Jesus to plead his case to his Father. For one, we have these words of our Lord about the idea of pleading on our behalf before God.
“. . .In that day YOU will ask in my name, and I do not say to YOU that I shall make request of the Father concerning YOU. For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father’s representative.” (John 16:26, 27)
He is explicitly telling us that he won't request on our behalf. Actually, if we expect Jesus to request on our behalf, we have failed to get the point. Jesus died so that we would not need an intercessor, because as children of God we would have a direct channel to God. Jesus is that channel, not a relay station.
Of course, that doesn't mean we can't ask Jesus for things as well, since all authority has been granted to him. If he has to go ask his Father for permission for every little thing, like granting or not Paul's request, then he has no real authority and is just a figurehead.Reply by Frankie on 2022-10-15 16:51:07
Dear Eric - "Jesus is that channel, not a relay station." You made my day!
Frankie
Comment by Sophie on 2022-11-17 08:15:22
Hello Eric,
Thank you for your well researched videos.
Well, yes, the word "prayer" is used for Jesus, except that the NT has replaced it with Jehovah...
In Acts 1:24, the apostles pray to the Lord (Greek: Kurié) to ask him to guide them in choosing a new apostle.
The Greek word Kurie is always used by the apostles when they address Jesus, as you point out, when they speak directly to him.
In this verse the Greek word is: proseuchomia, which is found in Matthew 5:44, 6:5, 6, 7, 9 etc.
On the other hand, in 2 Corinthians 12:8, the word "supplication": parakleo, is also found in Matthew 5:44, being in this text addressed to the Father by Jesus. So Paul is indeed addressing a supplication, a prayer, moreover this is probably why the TMN has put "Jehovah", but the context clearly shows that Paul was addressing Jesus.
As for the words of Jesus concerning possible prayers to be addressed to him, we could recite a text to which you had alluded in the other video: John 14:14
"If you ask anything in my name, I will do it".
In the TMN 95 (large format study Bible) version there is a footnote that reads:
"ask" manuscripts A D It and after 15:16 and 16:23
and manuscripts P66 א B W V Vg Sy h and p: "ask me" "
Interesting!!! 9 manuscripts vs. 3 that would use "ask me."
Their choice to remove the "me" is justified by John 15:16 and 16:23
Now let's analyze the A D and It manuscripts:
In the latest 2018 version of Nestle-Aland's NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE, there are 11 manuscripts cited that quote "ask me", namely: A D (how about that!!) K L Q ψ 1241 1224 l844pm It (also!!) vgmss co.
The TMN adding: P66 א B W V Vg Sy h and p i.e. 19 manuscripts in total for "ask me."
(See beginning TMN 95 large, page 10-13 in French, for the references of certain manuscripts)
Additional clarification in the Greek version:
"If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".
Conclusion: we can see that the TMN cites only 3 manuscripts that would justify the deletion of "me", but is not justified according to the new research of the manuscripts according to Nestle-Aland.
This is not the first time that the TMN contradicts itself... and by the way removes the long conclusion of Mark and John 8 in the new 2018 version, justifying the absence of these verses in some manuscripts, but on the other hand using these same manuscripts to justify the translation of some passages in their own way.
Have a good day Eric and see you soon for a new video : )
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-17 09:26:32
Hi Sophie,
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
You wrote: "In Acts 1:24, the apostles pray to the Lord (Greek: Kurié) to ask him to guide them in choosing a new apostle."
Looking at the interlinear gives us a slightly different view which is nicely conveyed by the Berean Literal Bible: "And having prayed, they said, "You Lord, knower of the hearts of all, show which one of these two You have chosen."
This indicates that they prayed, then having prayed--having completed their prayer--they asked Jesus to show them which of the two was to be chosen.
This is in line with my understanding. We can talk to Jesus, and we can ask or petition Jesus for anything. But prayer refers to a special type of conversation, a unique conversation, but while you can have many brothers (and Jesus is one) you can have only one Father.
Comment by Sophie on 2022-11-16 04:12:29
Bonjour Eric,
Merci pour tes vidéos très recherchées.
Et bien si, le mot "prière" est utilisé pour Jésus, sauf que la TMN a remplacé par Jéhovah...
En Actes 1:24, les apôtres prient le Seigneur (en grec : Kurié) pour lui demander de les guider dans le choix d'un nouvel apôtre.
Le terme grec Kurié est toujours utilisé par les apôtres quand ils s'adressent à Jésus, ainsi comme tu le soulignes, quand ils lui parlent directement.
Dans ce verset le mot grec est : proseuchomia, que l'on trouve en Matthieu 5:44, 6:5, 6, 7, 9 etc.
D'autre part, en 2 Corinthiens 12:8, le mot "supplier": parakléo, se trouve aussi en Matthieu 5:44, étant dans ce texte adressé au Père par Jésus. Donc Paul adresse bien une supplique, une prière, d'ailleurs c'est sans doute pour cela que la TMN a mis "Jéhovah", mais le contexte montre bien que Paul s'adressait à Jésus.
Pour ce qui des paroles de Jésus concernant d'éventuelles prières à lui adresser, on pourrait reciter un texte auquel tu avais fait allusion dans l'autre vidéo : Jean 14:14
"Si vous demandez quelque chose en mon nom, je le ferai"
Dans la version TMN 95 (Bible d'étude grand format) on trouve une note en bas de page qui dit :
" "demandez" manuscrits A D It et d'après 15:16 et 16:23
et manuscrits P66 א B W V Vg Sy h et p : "me demandez" "
Intéressant !! 9 manuscrits contre 3 qui utiliserait "me demandez"
Leur choix de retirer le "me" est justifié par Jean 15:16 et 16:23
Analysons maintenant les manuscrits A D et It :
Dans la dernière version 2018 de NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE de Nestle-Aland, il est cité 11 manuscrits qui cite "me demandez", à savoir : A D (tiens donc !!) K L Q ψ 1241 1224 l844pm It (aussi !!) vgmss co.
La TMN rajoutant : P66 א B W V Vg Sy h et p soit 19 manuscrits au total pour "me demandez"
(Voir début TMN 95 grand format, page 10-13 en français, pour les références de certains manuscrits)
Précisions supplémentaire dans la version grecque :
"Si vous me demandez quelque chose en mon nom, MOI je le ferai"
Conclusion : on constate que la TMN ne cite que 3 manuscrits qui justifieraient la suppression du "me", mais n'est pas justifié selon les nouvelles recherches des manuscrits selon Nestle-Aland.
Ce n'est pas la première fois que la TMN se contredit... et au passage enlève la conclusion longue de Marc et Jean 8 dans la nouvelle version 2018, justifiant l'absence de ces versets dans certains manuscrits, mais d'un autre coté utilisant ces mêmes manuscrits pour justifier la traduction de certains passages à leur manière.
Bonne journée Eric et à bientôt pour une nouvelle vidéo : )