Jesus’ listeners were not coming out of false religion. They were not pagans whose faith was based on legend and mythology. These were the chosen people. Their faith and form of worship had come down from Jehovah God through Moses. Their law had been written by the very finger of God. Under that law, to ingest blood was a capital offence. And here is Jesus telling them that they will not only have to drink his blood, but eat his flesh as well, in order to be saved. Would they now leave their divinely ordained faith, the only truth they had ever known, to follow this man asking them to perform these repugnant acts? What a leap of faith it must have been to stick with him under those circumstances.
The apostles did so, not because they understood, but because they recognized who he was.
It is also evident that Jesus, the wisest of all men, knew exactly what he was doing. He was testing his followers with the truth.
Is there a parallel of this for God’s people today?
We have no one who speaks only the truth as Jesus did. There is no infallible individual or group of individuals who can lay claim to our unconditional faith as Jesus could. So it may seem that the words of Peter can find no modern-day application. But is that truly the case?
A number of us who have been reading and contributing to this forum have undergone our own crisis of faith and have had to decide where we will go. As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we refer to our faith as the truth. What other group in Christendom does that? Sure, they all think they have the truth to one degree or another, but truth isn’t really that important to them. It isn’t pivotal, as it is for us. A question that is often asked when we meet a fellow witness for the first time is, “When did you learn the truth?” or “How long have you been in the truth?” When a witness abandons the congregation, we say he has “left the truth”. This may be seen as hubris by outsiders, but it goes to the heart of our faith. We value accurate knowledge. We believe the churches of Christendom teach falsehood, but the truth has set us free. Additionally, we are increasingly taught that that truth has come down to us via a group of individuals identified as the “faithful slave” and that they are appointed by Jehovah God as his channel of communication.
With such a posture, it is easy to see how difficult it has been for those of us who have come to the realization that some of what we held to be core beliefs have no foundation in scripture, but are actually based on human speculation. So it was for me when I came to see that 1914 was just another year. I had been taught since childhood that 1914 was the year the last days began; the year the gentile times ended; the year Christ began ruling from heaven as king. It was and continues to be one of the distinguishing features of Jehovah’s people, something which sets us apart from all other religions claiming to be Christian. I had never even questioned it until recently. Even as other prophetic interpretations grew increasingly more difficult to reconcile with the observable evidence, 1914 remained Scriptural bedrock for me.
Once I was finally able to let it go, I felt great relief and a sense of excitement infused my Bible study. Suddenly, Scriptural passages that had seemed inscrutable by virtue of being forced to conform to that single false premise could be viewed in a new, free light. However, there was also a feeling of resentment, even anger, toward those who had kept me in the dark for so long with their unscriptural speculation. I began to feel what I had observed many Catholics experience when they first learned that God had a personal name; that there was no Trinity, purgatory nor Hellfire. But those Catholics and others like them, had somewhere to go. They joined our ranks. But where would I go? Is there another religion that even more closely conforms to Bible truth than we do? I am not aware of one, and I’ve done the research.
We have been taught all our lives that those that head up our organization serve as God’s appointed channel of communication; that the holy spirit feeds us through them. To come to the slowly dawning realization that you and other very ordinary individuals like yourself are learning Scriptural truths independently of this so-called channel of communication is startling. It causes you to question your very foundation of faith.
To give one tiny example: we have recently been told that the “domestics” spoken of at Mt. 24:45-47 refer not only to the anointed remnant on earth, but to all true Christians. Another piece of “new light” is that the appointment of the faithful slave over all the master’s belongings did not occur in 1919, but will happen during the judgment that precedes Armageddon. I, and many like me, came to these “new understandings” many years ago. How could we have got it right so long before Jehovah’s appointed channel did? We do not have more of his holy spirit than they, do we? I don’t think so.
You can see the quandary I, and many like me, have been facing? I am in the truth. That is how I have always referred to myself as a Jehovah’s Witness. I hold the truth as something very dear to me. We all do. Sure, we don’t know everything, but when a refinement in understanding is called for, we embrace it because truth is paramount. It trumps culture, tradition, and personal preference. With such a stance as this, how can I get on the platform and teach 1914, or our latest misinterpretation of “this generation” or other things that I have been able to prove from Scripture are wrong in our theology? Isn’t that hypocritical?
Now, some have suggested that we imitate Russell who abandoned the organized religions of his day and branched out on his own. In fact, a number of Jehovah’s Witnesses in various lands have done that very thing. Is that the way to go? Are we being unfaithful to our God by staying within our organization even though we no longer hold to every doctrine as gospel? Each one must do what his or her conscience dictates, of course. However, I return to Peter’s words: “Whom shall we go away to?”
Those who have started their own groups have all vanished into obscurity. Why? Perhaps we can learn something from the words of Gamaliel: “…if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them…” (Acts 5:38, 39)
Despite the active opposition from the world and its clergy, we, like the first century Christians, have flourished. If those who had ‘gone away from us’ were being blessed by God in the same way, they would have multiplied many times over, while we would have diminished. But that hasn’t been the case. It is not easy being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s easy to be a Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, or whatever. What do you really have to do to practice almost any religion today? What do you have to stand for? Are you required to get in the face of opposers and proclaim your faith? Engaging in the preaching work is hard and it is the one thing that every group departing from our ranks drops. Oh, they may say that they will continue the preaching, but in no time at all, they cease.
Jesus didn’t give us many commands, but those he did give us must be obeyed if we are to have the favor of our King, and preaching is one of the foremost. (Ps. 2:12; Mat. 28:19, 20)
Those of us who remain Jehovah’s Witnesses despite no longer accepting every teaching that comes down the pike do so because, like Peter, we have recognized where Jehovah’s blessing is being poured out. It is not being poured out on an organization, but on a people. It is not being poured out on an administrative hierarchy, but on individuals of God’s choosing within that administration. We have stopped focusing on the organization and its hierarchy and instead have come to see the people, in their millions, upon whom Jehovah’s spirit is being poured out.
King David was an adulterer and a murderer. Would a Jew in his day have been blessed by God if he had gone off to live in another nation because of the way the God-anointed king was behaving? Or take the case of a parent who lost a son or daughter in the scourge that killed 70,000 because of David’s ill-considered census. Would Jehovah have blessed him for leaving God’s people? Then there’s Anna, a prophetess filled with holy spirit, rendering sacred service day and night despite the sins and oppressions of the priests and other religious leaders of her day. She had nowhere else to go. She stayed with Jehovah’s people, until it was his time for a change. Now, undoubtedly she would have joined herself to Christ had she lived long enough, but that would be different. Then she would have had “somewhere else to go”.
So my point is that there is no other religion on earth today that even comes close to Jehovah’s Witnesses, despite our errors in interpretation and at times our conduct. With very few exceptions, all other religions feel justified in killing their brothers in times of war. Jesus didn’t say, “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have the truth among yourselves.” No, is it love that marks the true faith and we do have it.
I can see some of you raising a hand of protest because you know or have personally experienced a distinct lack of love within our ranks. That existed in the first century congregation as well. Just consider Paul’s words to the Galatians at 5:15 or James’ warning to the congregations at 4:2. But those are exceptions—albeit far too numerous it seems these days—that merely go to show that such individuals, though claiming to be Jehovah’s people, are giving evidence by their hatred of their fellow man that they are children of the Devil. It is still easy to find many loving and caring individuals within our ranks through whom God’s holy active force is constantly at work, refining and enriching. How could we leave such a brotherhood?
We do not belong to an organization. We belong to a people. When the great tribulation starts, when the rulers of the world attack the Great Harlot of Revelation, it is doubtful that our organization with its buildings and printing presses and administrative hierarchy will remain intact. That’s okay. We won’t need it then. We will need each other. We will need the brotherhood. When the dust settles from that worldwide conflagration, we will look for the eagles and know where we must go to be with those upon whom Jehovah continues to pour his spirit. (Mt. 24:28)
As long as the holy spirit continues in evidence upon the worldwide brotherhood of Jehovah’s people, I will count it a privilege to be one of them.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Cassandra on 2013-02-26 20:33:25
I have been reading your posts for some time and many of the points you raise resonate with me. I, too, have found evidence that has caused me to disagree with some major doctrines that we have been taught. If I were single, I could live with the inner conflict this creates for the sake of the brotherhood, my parents, and many dear friends. However, I have young children. What am I to teach them? If I teach them what is currently published but what I believe to be false or at least misguided, I would be the worst of hypocrites. Yet if I teach them what I believe to be true based on my own study, I risk losing everything.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-26 20:56:28
I see you dilemma. I hadn't considered the problem that teaching children creates. For my part, as an elder, I have had occasions when I've been asked to conduct the Watchtower study and have declined because the article in question focuses on a subject or teaching I now believe to be wrong. But I have that luxury. You do not. I cannot see that it is acceptable to teach something to small children we believe to be incorrect. Like making them believe in Santa Claus. The disillusionment when they find they've been deceived by those they most trust in life, their own parents, far outweighs any good that can come from perpetuating the fantasy.
Many of the points I've come to view as wrong in our teaching are matters of interpretation. I can't always offer an alternative which is sure to be right. It is often easier to show that something is wrong than to come up with a correct answer. Still, what we can do for your children is give them the power to reason for themselves and question everything.
We would never want Rev. 22:15 to apply to us: "Outside are teh dogs...and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."
Comment by Cassandra on 2013-02-26 23:03:08
Yes, I agree- teaching our children to reason is paramount. I try to always ask questions and not state facts. The problem is that, innocent and pure as their little hearts are, it's only a matter of time before they pipe up in some unforeseen setting about conclusions they've reached based on discussions with mummy. Then I'll have a lot of explaining to do. I just regret that our JW culture does not allow open discussion and/or disagreement without the threat of being immediately cut off. I believe the stance comes from a place of fear and they really need to rethink it.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-27 00:24:27
There is that. I wish I had an answer for you. The fact that we put oneness of thought about truth is most troubling, and a very dangerous position for us as it smacks of Pharisaism and we all know that that eventually led to.
Comment by MD on 2013-02-27 03:00:29
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions from people who contact you. I've been torn about several things that I've been somewhat uncomfortable about in the organization from personal experience or understandings. Other sites were just very bitter ex JW's or REAL apostates where I never wanted to touch those sites again. Questions to elders or even my dad just went to a brick wall of "just pray about it". The failed predictions were always a stumbling block, especially after talking with elders and they would just say it was just "lies by apostates", "just pray to Jehovah" or "don't focus on that". In service when people would ask about it I was told they were an apostate and wanting to argue and walk away but I always felt like I was avoiding it which means people think it was a double standard that we brought out other religions mistakes but never admitted ours. The more I read the more I FINALLY got answers that helped me explain JW's beginnings but this post also helped me explain how to maybe explain things some may approach me about on those things, at least to some.
If the organization would have said "hey our organization is just bible students who are not the ONLY DIRECT channel but just Christians who try hard to be Christians and we sometimes make mistakes" then I could except things more but to say they are the DIRECT CHANNEL and change things each year it seems it does make it hard to preach about us having the TRUTH but thing find out we have to tweak the truth routinely and I start to loose confidence since they would also loose confidence in me if I kept changing my story on something I also said was true.
Also as much as I hate to admit this during this searching out period I've actually been calling into the meetings the last few months. Somewhat because of trying to figure things out but also because I seem to go to halls without the love you hear about around the world and some unfortunately that are haughty/ holier than thou cliques who look down on people if they are not a MS, pioneer, elder, etc and it depresses me so rather than give up I call in while I try to figure things out. This is not a false statement where I am overly sensitive but a real feeling where you really want to open up to people and even look desperate sometimes to try to fit in only to get denied and then I get counseled for going to a museum or movie with two non JW's who are like my family for association when no one else wants to. (BTW I HATE the term "worldly" on ANYONE not a JW. While I 100% believe in the example of unevenly yolk it's like scratching a chalkboard since it sounds pious and judgmental to be honest.
I like you had checked to see other teachings and came to the conclusion that JW's AS A WHOLE are the closes to doing all that Jehovah would want us to do but that doesn't erase some of the hard things to be a part of it including association and some of our understanding. I've always felt if we are not INSPIRED then isn't it all just TRYING to do our best and not think more of ourselves than we should? So much of the bible we cannot understand yet so why create our own understandings and just wait for Jehovah. I know no one is perfect and definitely had to readjust my thinking in the past so I cannot judge but I admit this is a process but appreciate your posts since it does help a bit keep me from 100% straying away. Ironic though... if the brothers knew I was on this site I probably get a tongue lashing or worst but this post may have been the thing that got me to give it another shot in person in the near future.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-27 07:42:27
I am so very glad to hear that this forum has been a help to you.
I worry sometimes about the effect of our Bible study forum. The posts reflect the result of discussions and an interchange of insight and research between many individuals among Jehovah's people. I merely give voice to what I have learned from them. It is our hope that this research will lead to a better, fuller understanding of Scripture. Unfortunately, that frequently puts us at odds with established doctrine. So while we are attempting to build up, as often as not, we are simultaneously tearing down. Of course, witnesses do this all the time in the field service. It is hard to share the joy that comes from learning God has a personal name without also destroying the belief in the Trinity. We are like builders who must level an old building to erect in its place something far more useful and beautiful.
However, it is somewhat disconcerting when it is our own long-held beliefs that we are tearing down. We don't go door-to-door to discourage people, but rather set them free, because that is what learning the truth does. This same principle must also apply within the Christian Congregation.
I'm sorry that is seems you are in a congregation lacking in love. I make no judgment, but respect your point of view. Many, I find, have moved to another congregation in such circumstances. They have 'voted with their feet', so to speak. If a person is sick with some lung ailment, they might choose to move to a hotter, drier climate. Who would blame them? A person suffering spiritually may choose to do likewise, seeking out an environment that is more conducive to spiritual healing.
Pray on it and may Jehovah bless and guide you.Reply by mdnwa on 2013-02-27 13:28:44
I think some just toss out the "apostate" label way too fast on any question. It hasn't been applied to me but I'm sure some of the questions I have would if made public. I know in my case I'm always sincere and ask in a disrespectful tone nor EVER doubt Jehovah as Almighty and Jesus his son or the bible is inspired but get answers that don't make sense or left hanging.
There are 100% REAL apostates, some obvious and some on the sly online but there are also sincere people with honest questions. I was pressured being baptized by elders so really was not ready or understood MANY things so now I find myself wanting answers the older I get and want to be a better Christian but some issues about being a JW have always been there on things my conscience pricks me about or things I need reassurance and just ignoring those things presents deeper doubts. Until I get them then yes I do feel hypocritical preaching certain things or commenting, etc until I get clearer answers. Thanks again.
Comment by miken on 2013-02-27 12:53:05
"If those who had ‘gone away from us’ were being blessed by God in the same way, they would have multiplied many times over, while we would have diminished".
True that those who broke away in 1918-1920 and after the 1925 failure have not grown to the extent of the WTBS, however growth in numbers does nor necessarily equate with divine approval. The Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists have grown at over twice the rate of JW's over a similar period of time.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-27 13:48:32
My apologies, Miken, for editing your comment. I had a choice between not approving it at all, or cutting out the part that was not on topic. The other points you made which I've removed can still be made on a post that is germane to that topic. Another guideline to keep in mind is that reference links to other sites have to be verified before they can be approved. We do not want this to be a forum for apostates initiatives.
As to your comment, it is true that raw numbers is not an indication of God's blessing. However, two questions come to mind:
1) How many Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists would there be if they only counted those going out in the preaching work?
2) Are there any groups that do preach as we do and which are having a success that would indicate Jehovah's blessing?
MeletiReply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-28 08:15:48
I feel compelled to play devil's advocate on this one.
It is explicit in scripture that Christians are commanded to preach. Therefore I do see the willingness of all Jehovah's Witnesses to preach to be a tick in the box when seeing how we measure up to the basic principles of Christianity.
However, on the matter of measuring success I think we need to be careful with playing a numbers game. As miken points out there are other religions who have been more successful if measured in terms of growth. Meleti raises two questions in response to that. I suspect that the general response to the first one by a Mormon or SDA would be that they do all spread the gospel in their own way. This is a common response that we receive from people we meet in our ministry. Of course we reject those claims because they are not describing an "organized" preaching work, and if truth be told we might doubt whether the claimant truly spends much time focused on any form of preaching. Let's leave that aside for now since we can't judge any individual effort that people might make, at least not in any meaningful way.
What I really wanted to explore further was the second question. Are there any groups that do preach as we do and which are having a success that would indicate Jehovah’s blessing?
The first thing we surely have to acknowledge is that every growing religion must have some form of organized recruitment. I have no idea what they all are, but it seems logical to me that a religion cannot grow unless they gain new adherents. In turn those new adherents are mostly not going to wake up one day and say "I think I'll become xyz religion" out of the blue. Someone or some media has been used to introduce that person to the message. (For now I am leaving aside those born into each religion which then becomes a matter of retention).
Once we view things this way then how do we argue special success in the preaching work?
Let's use the Mormons as an example since they have an overt form of preaching also, but at any given time only a minority of them are engaged in it. If we accept the official figures that they have outgrown us in shear numbers (especially starting in the 1960s) then how do we claim greater evidence of Jehovah's blessing based upon success in preaching? If only 1 in 20 of them are engaged in the organized ministry at any time, and the rest are just doing whatever informal evangelizing they do, but their figures have increased more than ours then somehow their method is still seeing a better return whichever way you look at it. The 1 in 20 must be recruiting many times more than the average JW in order to explain the numbers. Is Jehovah blessing the 1 in 20 many times more than the average JW? Either that or the informal preaching of the remainder is as effective as the formal door-door and street work and they are all being blessed.
I cannot see how we can avoid these questions if we are going to use numbers as an indicator of blessing.
The only way it works for me is to say that success is measured in terms of what the adherents are motivated to do, not the results that they obtain from it. If viewed this way then we can point to the average effort that every JW Christian puts into attempting to fulfill the Christian commission.
Jesus said "by their fruits you will recognize them". Therefore it would be an indicator of Jehovah's blessing when any individual Christian is motivated to devote a large portion of his/her time to spreading the gospel. When this is seen at an organizational level then we can draw a certain conclusion about the form of worship in general.
We are probably the most "numbers conscious" religious organization in the world. We are encouraged to view our success in terms of numbers - globally, locally and personally. But what I have tried to demonstrate is that viewing things this way does not give us clear cut evidence of anything. Another religion might claim that success is measured by how many people are encouraged to come into a relationship with Jesus Christ and demonstrate that by observing the command to keep partaking of his symbolic body and blood until he arrives. Just as most religions have only a minority dedicating themselves to preaching, we have a minority who are partaking, and we are actively discouraging new adherents from doing so. For those who believe this command to also be at the heart of being a Christian the numbers now stack up in a very different way. But that is a topic for another day ...
Apollos
P.S. I really appreciated your fine article Meleti - thanks
Comment by miken on 2013-02-28 11:50:16
Meleti I am suprised you found it necessary to edit my contribution as a significant part of it was dealing with the topic To Whom Shall We Go Away?. John 6:68, 69 shows the answer is turn to and have faith in Christ however on a number of occasions the governing body have applied John 6:68, 69 to themselves. The point I was making is that JW's cannot turn to Christ (Acts 4:12) as they cannot have a personal relationship with him in the way they can with God.
As to your assertion that "We do not belong to an organization. We belong to a people." in reality this is not the case. The second baptism question asks:- Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? (Watchtower June 1, 1985 pg. 30 par. 3,4.) The 1985 change was clarified in 1987 thus:- "Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization." (Watchtower April 15, 1987, page 12
If you were not to accept that the WTBS is God and Christ's only earthly organization ( not just associated Christians) of which at baptism you become a part, you would as you know be disfellowshipped.Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-28 12:17:50
I can only speak for myself, but I am aware of the questions I specifically answered at baptism. Neither of them involved any dedication to an organization. I agree with Meleti in his distinction between a people and an organization. That is not to deny that the leadership over time has not put more emphasis on the latter, and yes the questions have now changed, but to me that does not mean that my personal dedication is invalid. Even if the religion completely went out of existence I have still dedicated myself to God. Why would that change?
Of course anybody currently making the same decisions has to give personal consideration to the questions as they currently stand. They do indeed make a public declaration on the basis of those questions. But that is a personal decision. I cannot tell anybody else how to act in this respect.
I will provide an analogy for consideration however. If I am an immigrant and wish to become nationalized then I may face a similar decision of conscience. That process usually involves some sort of declaration of allegiance to the country's leadership. Is such a declaration appropriate for a Christian in order to gain the advantages of citizenship? There is no clear ruling against this. To me a similar decision exists where a person might be uncomfortable with giving allegiance to an organization but still wants to symbolise their dedication to God in baptism.
God sees what the heart is.
ApollosReply by Anonymous on 2016-12-23 01:51:55
I hope this is not offensive to anyone .
The society's disobedience to God has created a religious refugee type situation .
We obey God. Nobody is trying to sign up with nobody's NWO.
The Orgins of some of these groups are strangely getting harder to find with a regular internet search ...
It's a "no win" situation from a human standpoint . The instructions are illogical.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-28 13:10:21
Hi Miken,
I'm not suggesting the edited portion of your comment wasn't valid. For example, you quoted from the 1943 Yearbook p. 168, 169 and the quote you highlighted from the declaration made at the annual meeting was of particular interest.
""that instructions come to the Lord’s people on earth from the office of president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, filled by anointed men chosen of the Lord in his organization;"
However, I think that would be more germane to one of the posts on the Governing Body and that it might prompt further discussion there.
As for the points made about a personal relationship with Jesus, you made the extended point about praying to him. Since that is not something we accept, it would be better to offer a post which clearly laid out the basis for such a belief, then we could discuss it through the forum.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-28 12:50:03
I see your points, Miken, but I have to agree with Apollos’ line of reasoning. The way to measure our success cannot simply be numerical. I'm not saying that numbers don’t factor in to some degree. The Bible talks about 5,000 being baptized on a single occasion. To fulfill Bible prophecy, the true faith would have to constitute a nation, a people for Jehovah’s name. However, trying to use numbers alone as proof of God’s blessing raises problems. First there is the issue of setting a standard for measurement. There is none right now. I’m sure if you look at the census figures for the United States, you’d find the number of individuals identifying themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses far outstrips the numbers we are reporting. I remember one 1st World country where the census gave a figure for the number of Jehovah’s Witnesses that was two and a half times what we were reporting in the Year Book. We only count members who report field service activity. How do the Mormons count their adherents? I’m told that it is possible to have one’s dead relatives baptized into that faith, thereby enabling them to be added to the count.
But you are right. Sheer numbers or the rate of growth, while encouraging, cannot be the measure of success for any religion. If it were, then the Catholics would win hands down among Christian faiths. Still, there is a numerical component to Gamaliel’s words, for he said that the Christians would disappear if their work was not from God. They didn’t disappear, but grew to the point that one in three on Earth count themselves as Christian. However, here is where I agree with Apollos, for if numbers or success in growth were the only criterion Gamaliel was using, then we would have to acknowledge that the Muslim faith if also from God, as is the Buddhist, Shinto, and Hindu. Therefore, we have to consider the speaker.
Gamaliel was a Jew and therefore part of God’s true people. The pagan religions that surrounded them in those days have all but vanished from the face of the earth, but the true faith was the Jewish faith. Christians were claiming they were the natural extension of that faith. They were part of the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies that every faithful Jew had looked forward to since the founding of the nation. So this new faith could only be from God, that is from the true God Jehovah, the God Gamaliel worshipped, if it succeeded.
But that success would have be measured not by mere numbers, but by the fruitage that indicated God’s blessing. Every Christian religion accepts the Bible and the standard for measuring success as a Christian is to be found there. So if a religion fails to fulfill John 13:35, then we need go no further. It has failed the litmus test. If a religion’s history is one of violence; if it promotes war; if it blesses the armies of the nation in which it finds itself; if it supports the killing of enemy soldiers and civilians, especially if such are of the same faith, but a different nationality; then it cannot lay claim to fulfilling John 13:35. Its members, no matter how loudly they cry, “Lord! Lord!”, are simply not Jesus disciples.Reply by Anonymous on 2016-12-23 05:40:25
I'm sorry which Gamaliel are we talking about ??
The biblical person??!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-12-23 08:10:18
Correct
Comment by Glenn on 2013-03-04 15:35:09
Loved your post, but what hard for me is the fact we do think in all our arrogance that we are the truth. We have put our selves on a pedestal, and when then you find the mistakes its not easy!!! I to have Children. Little mistakes about Sodom and Gomorrah and who will be resurrected are just that, little mistakes. But when the GB deny to us the New Covenant and the Mediator and take those only for themselves, that's BIG. When does the mistakes or doctrine become inexcusable and does Luke 21:8 apply to us. 'he said,'take heed that you not be deceived, for many will come in my name saying I Am anointed and the time is near, do not go after them.'
Were do we draw the line in the sand?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-04 15:38:36
I see your point. For me, at this time, I've drawn in as detailed in this post. However, nothing is static. Depending on developments by the GB, I may need to move that line. Time will tell.
Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-04 16:04:54
I'm wondering if there really is a Channel or organization, Jesus never talked about it. It seems that he is It. All the new testament scriptures talk about its all him and through him we have access to the father. Also when one looks back at the time the first covenant was set up there was the law written down, priests to help one with the sacrifices, Moses as mediator and Jehovah. But the idea of an organization was introduced by the Israelites when they demanded a King and they were warned about how that would work out.
So maybe we have the law so to speak in the bible and we have Jesus. At the time of judgement its a personal judgement not one organization over another. So maybe this idea of a religion or a organization is all wrong?? I don't know maybe that's another subject you can tackle.
Comment by katrina on 2013-11-02 08:42:18
There are very good reason why we see all these things happening within the organization, I believe its become apostate just like ancient Isreal that were in a covenant with Jehovah, the GB are like the superfine apostles, and worse have begun ruling without the rest.
I have got so much help from this site and really appreciate all the work you brothers have put into especially your love for Gods word and for the brothers.
I think Christ is the answer that is where to go, and I am not advocating leaving the brotherhood, but rather it is Jehovah's way for us to come to Christ and allow him to guide us as he is the head of the congregation.
But not the secular organization.
I believe we need to have a waiting attitude as when Christ inspected the seven congregations in Rev, he only found one that was doing ok, the rest were not, but he did not say leave, when Christ's authentic return has arrived he will judge each individual as the judgment starts with God's house first. 1Pet 4:17
Hope you will accept a link here which helps to understand more on the man of lawlessness.
http://perimeno.ca/God's_Organization.htm#Lawlessness