A Disturbing Trend

Comment by hezekiah1 on 2013-03-28 17:33:17

Thanks Meleti, I think that this is more than just coincidence. I have noticed the same emphasis on the teachings of the GB in print in the WT. Take for example the WT April 15 2012 article "Betrayal, An Ominous sign of the Times" :
11 Peter did not reason that Jesus
must have the wrong view of things and
that if given time, He would recant what
He had said. No, Peter humbly recognized
that Jesus had “sayings of everlasting
life.” Likewise today, how do
we react if we encounter a point in our
Christian publications from “the faithful
steward” that is hard to understand
or that does not match with our thinking?
We should try hard to get the sense
of it rather than merely expecting that
there will be a change to conform to our
viewpoint.—Read Luke 12:42.
Are we to believe that the teaching we receive is now on par with Jesus himself? Neither Jehovah nor Jesus ever have had to correct themselves, or refine their view. On the other hand, we have had to refine our view several times on various subjects. As you have rightly pointed out, we need to respect the GB and the hard work they do. However I find the way the GB is spoken of and treated borders on reverence. We may not think respect and reverence is all that different, but look how they are defined.
Respect-esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.
Reverence-a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration. a gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.
You notice the difference?
To put the teachings in the WT on the same par as Jesus, to pray for the GB and thank Jehovah for them and the teaching committee, the picture in the April 2013 WT pg 29 showing the GB, but not Jesus, the emphasis on the Royal Priesthood, but little on Jesus and the recent parts at the District and Circuit assemblies seem to be a trend toward revering humans. Even angels have counseled those who tried to do them obeisance that they should not do that, and they only one to worship is Jehovah. Seems like good counsel

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-28 18:34:10

I personally found that particular point to be very troubling, especially since it was made in an article talking about betrayal. Are they suggesting that doubting one of their teachings is a form of betrayal?

Comment by Glenn on 2013-03-28 21:06:26

Rumor has it by the end of the year using WT. article's they will elevate themselves to Pope like status.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-29 00:05:13

  Meleti,
  I have noted this trend as well in prayers. It grows tiring.
  Steve

  • Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-29 02:00:33

    I wonder if the elders are being directed to metion the F&DS in prayers more???

    • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-29 08:14:00

      No, I don't believe so.
      My personal theory is that, as with newly introduced theocratic terms (newspeak), it starts with the bethelites. Quite likely the prayers that are given at Bethel have begun the trend. Whether that is intentional or not is a matter of speculation. The bethelites in turn add thanks for the FDS to their prayers as a matter of course, and slowly that disseminates thorugh the congregations.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-29 06:57:50

Has the holy spirit organized Jehovah's people as congregations or as a hierarchical, ecclesiastical chain of authority with many layers of men? The scriptures are clear. In Revelation, Jesus uses the last-living Apostle to deliver direct messages:
Rev 1: ” 9 I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat?mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph?e?sus and in Smyr?na and in Per?ga?mum and in Thy?a?ti?ra and in Sar?dis and in Philadelphia and in La?o?di?ce?a.”

Comment by miken on 2013-03-29 12:43:40

“It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel.” – Matthew 4:4; John 17:3
This is the latest claim in the July 15 WT study edition. Note the implications of the scriptures cited. Over recent years there has been an increasing number of statements published reinforcing the authority and control of the governing body.
Here are a few quotations with a few additions from just the Watchtower magazine:-
"The other sheep (now domestics) should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ's anointed (now 8) brothers still on earth". (Matt 25:34-40)
WT March 15, 2012, page 20, para 2.
"Through the new covenant, Jehovah makes his blessings avaiable to many by means of a few. (now only 8) Those in the covenant are few, 144,000. Through them, millions from all nations will be blessed with everlasting life in an earthly paradise...."
WT March 1st, 2012, page 17, section 3.
Where is Jesus?
" We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave (the governing body) to have Jehovah's approval".
WT July 15, 2011, page 24.
"They (elders) recognize, however, that Christ is using a small group of anointed Christian men as a Governing Body to lead and direct his disciples on earth".
WT September 15, 2010, page 27, para 10
"He (Christ) has provided direction for the anointed "domestics" and their "other sheep'" companions by means of a Governing Body".
WT September 15, 2010, page 26, para 4.
"In this time of the end, Christ has committed "all his belongings"- all the earthly interests of the Kingdom (apparently now just his domestics)- to his "faithful and discreet slave" and its representative Governing Body, a group of anointed Christian men. (Matt 24:45-47) The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are infact following their leader, Christ".
WT September 15, 2010, page 23, para 8.
"The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on (their interpretation of) God's word. Thus what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah-Isa. 54:13".
WT September 15, 2010, page 13, para 8.
"We cannot hope to aquire a good relationship with Jehovah (and Christ?) if we ignor those whom Jesus has appointed to care for his belongings. Without the assistance of "the faithful and discreet slave" (8 members of the governing body) we would neither understand the full import of what we read in God's word or know how to apply it". ( Matt 24:45-47)
WT September 15, 2010, page 8, para 7.
"When the time comes to clarify a spiritual matter in our day, holy spirit helps responsible representatives (no longer and never were) of the "faithful and discreet slave" at world headquarters to discern deep truths that were not previously understood. (Matt 24:45; 1 Cor 2:13) The Governing Body as a whole considers adjusted explanations. (Acts 15:6) What they learn, they publish for the benefit of all".
WT July 15, 2010, page 23, para 10.
Paradoxically however the following was also published:-
"However, Christians who have truely received this anointing (as the governing body would claim) do not demand special attention. They do not believe that being of the anointed gives them special insights beyong what even some experienced members of the "great crowd" may have. (Rev 7:9) They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the "other sheep" have. They do not expect special treatment, nor do they claim that partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation".
WT June 15, 2009, pages 23-24, para 16.
If the last quotation above was really believed the governing body woud not demand unquestioning obedience. One could of course continue to go back further historically and quote a lot more published statements concerning the governing body claiming total authority. Historically the governing body have never represented the world wide faithful and discreet slave class of anointed Christians, as they admitted in 2009, to quote:-
"Are all these anointed ones throughout the earth part of a global network that is somehow involved in revealing new spiritual truths? No.........."
WT June 15, 2009, page 24, para 16.

Comment by miken on 2013-03-29 13:06:18

One quotation I inadvertently missed:-
“Among those “gifts in men” are the members of the Governing Body who act in a representative way for the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15: 2, 6) In fact, our attitude toward Christ’s spiritual bothers is a major factor that will determine how we will be judged during the coming great tribulation. (Matt 25: 34-40) Thus one aspect of the way we gain a blessing is by giving our loyal support to God’s anointed ones”.
Watchtower December 15, 2010, page 20, paragraph 19.
I think we get the picture especially as noted previously in the illustration on page 29 of the April 15, 2013 Watchtower. We even have a hierarchy of seating quality!

• Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-29 14:38:08

  Its looking like the Catholic church more and more is it not?

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-29 14:46:45

    I think we're a long way from the pointy hats and the red robes. But we are trending in the wrong direction of late. Jehovah will correct things in his own good time. I have full confidence in that eventuality. How and with what effect is impossible to say right now with any certainty. However, I think it can be stated safely that the change will prove an even bigger test than what we are facing now.

    • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-29 21:15:30

      Meleti,
      What if things do not improve? What if they only get worse? At what point do we say enough and apply the language, "Get out of her my people"? I don't expect you to have an answer to this necessarily, but I'm feeling about at my wits ends with everything.
      I'm not sure if you heard but somebody out of Bethel leaked the next Watchtower early and it discusses the new FDS teaching. From the excerpts I've read and the comments by the person who has it, it appears just awful.
      It doesn't appear that they address what in my opinion is the Achilles heel of the argument, the account in Luke where Jesus answers Luke's question. They take the evil slave reference and say there is no such thing and never will be, but it is only a warning to the governing body. They further say certainly that Jesus will find them faithful upon his return, as if it is impossible for them to ever fall away.
      Steve

      • Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-29 21:52:30

        If one researches how the governing body comes up with the inspection process using mal 3:1-5 and then comes up with 1918-1919 as the year Jesus came inspected and approved us over every one else as the only channel or orginization. It like something out of the finish mystery book. The whole thing is unbiblical mal 3: 1-5 is about john the Baptist and Jesus its confirmed in the new testament I can't remember the Scripture. But its getting hard to stomach the whole thing.

        • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-29 23:55:11

          Glenn,
          Can you point to any specific references on that? I would enjoy reading that.
          Steve

Comment by Dorcas on 2013-03-29 23:22:35

I agree that this is a terribly disturbing trend. I'm not sure about any Bethel connection because I'm not aware of any Bethelites or Bethel connections in my congregation yet, I am hearing more and more references to the GB and FDS in the prayers (still improperly, I might add). Seems the new light hasn't trickled down to my congregation or else they are fearful of opening a can of worms by talking about it.
I believe we are getting the message about the GB at the assemblies and subtly (or not) through our magazines, the cited April 15 WT being the most recent glaring example. In other words, the GB really is blowing their own horn.
I'm feeling brother Steve's pain because I'm at my wit's end as well. I'm frustrated at every meeting and WT study because of seldom hearing Jesus' name. It's as if he is relegated to a position just slightly lower than the Apostle Paul.
This may be the first time I've disagreed with Meleti but it doesn't feel as if we're that far removed from the pointy hats and red robes, at least in theory.
The apostle Thomas was the doubter yet it was Judas who was the betrayer. Doubter does not equal betrayer. But above all, we must remember who Jehovah put as head of the congregation. It is my fear that this point has gotten lost along the way.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-30 08:52:19

  Shortly after I made the "pointy hats" reference, I got an email from a friend telling me something his sister has long claimed, "They have more power than the Pope".
  This statement shocked me until I gave it some thought. There are many Catholics who openly disagree with the Pope and Catholicism, but they do not get excommunicated. Why? At one time, not that long ago, people were burned at the stake for disagreeing with the Pope, but no longer. The fact is, the Pope can and on occasion does, excommunicate dissenters, but what good does it do? No Catholic is going to upload that decree. To excommunicate now is to do nothing but make a statement, because Catholics will continue to associate with the individual.
  We, on the other hand, will obediently shun the disfellowshipped one. So in that sense, and it is a very important one, we do have more power than the Pope.

  • Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-30 14:00:42

    Steve, I can't remember were exactly in the New Testament part of Mal.3:1-5 is quoted i think its in Hebrews. But i have read that the GB does not deny that the original context of the scripture is a prophecy of John the Baptised clearing the way as a messenger for Jesus and then Jesus cleans out the temple when he throws out the money changers. The GB then apply another prophecy to this text saying its about them being picked after an inspection process 3 1/2 years after Jesus assumes the throne in 1914. They do this by pointing to a time 3 1/2 years after his baptism when he throws out the money changers. But i read some where were Jesus may have thrown out the money changers at another time much earlier. Also their math to come up with 1918-1919 seems vague at best.
    Also note they claim and inspection process, yet the scriptures do not. Can not Jehovah pick by ones heart condition. Also why would Jesus pick Rutherford and the bible students, they were not exactly deserving, have you read Finish Mystery.
    And lets not forget this is all predicated on there being two prophecies concerning the scriptures at Mal. also that 1914 is a correct date. Jer. chapter 25 pretty much kills that for me since their it says the 70 years of desolation is for the nations as Babylon would reign supreme, not a desolation for the Jews and exactly 70 from the time when Babylon destroyed all hopes of the Assyrian empire by destroying their last major city Harbin (609 bce) until Babylon was itself conquered (539 bce) but that's a whole other subject.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-30 15:32:11

      You are correct, Glenn, in stating that Mal. 3:1-5 was fulfilled in Jesus' day. (See Mt. 11:10) Jesus cleansed the temple on two occasions; once, 6 months after his baptism and a second time shortly before his death. That Malachi can be applied to our day is conjecture. That its application can be pinned to the 1914-1919 time period is conjecture built upon conjecture. There is neither scriptural nor historical evidence to support this claim.

Comment by Ruiz on 2013-03-30 14:16:08

No these comments are taken out of proportion. These prayers ARE FINE! your just being too critical of our Faithful And Discreet Slave( Governing Body). We are ALL being TESTED IN this''Constant Feature" of (40) to how you behave to those taking the lead by our BEAUTIFUL GOD AND FATHER ***JEHOVAH***,his earthly channel, who Jesus our Anointed head of the CONGREGATION. Be very careful brothers,you are walking on slippery ice looking towards death for grieving the SPIRIT of JEHOVAH GOD!!!!!!!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-30 14:56:59

  Careful, Ruiz. You are passing judgment. If you think we are doing wrong, then show us how by using Holy Scripture. Unsubstantiated opinions just have no place in this forum.
  You allude to some test relating to the "'Constant Feature' of (40)". This is meaningless.
  Further, you provide no scriptural proof that the Governing Body is the faithful and discreet slave, nor that they are God's earthly channel. Both these teaching have been challenged in the pages of this forum, and no valid counter argument has been advanced. If you think we are wrong, then go to those posts and comment, making your case from Scripture. Show us the error of our ways using God's inspired word, not personal opinion.
  Oh, and by the way, how can anyone grieve the holy spirit by speaking truth. You can only grieve it by working against it and the way that humans work against it is by teaching falsehood.
  I will allow your comment this time as an object lesson of what constitutes an inappropriate comment.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-30 15:01:58

  Ruiz
  Would you mind explaining what is meant by ..
  We are ALL being TESTED IN this”Constant Feature” of (40) ?
  Apollos

Comment by roberta4949 on 2013-04-01 17:26:55

wow, interesting comments, the anointed are only co rulers with christ, we do not worship christ nor pray through the anointed, they are simply the spiritual jews paul spoke about, who will rule with christ (you can see that in revelation where the 24 elders throw their crowns before Jehovah's throne, these are respresentant of the anointed or as Jesus called them the little flock whom Jehovah approved of giving the kingdom, the anointed do not lord it over us, they provide the spiritual food like the older ones did in jersualem who worked together to answer questions that came up. they are like the apostles, who also gave the spiritual food at it's proper time, remember if there is a spiritual organization there is a physical one, even satan has a physical organization, all the different false relgious and political organization. no one is forced to be one of Jehovahs witnesses, unlike alot of religious we don't cut people's heads off if they choose to go another way. We worship Jehovah and pray to him through Christ (our ransomer). Also the bible indicates that spiritual advancement is progressive, we make adjustments as our understanding of the bible is enlightened, thus this light gets brighter and brighter. if you have questions jw.org.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-01 18:01:10

  You make an interesting point about Satan having a physical organization. I had not thought about it exactly this way before, but I do agree that Satan is the great imposter, and so we often see a counterfeit of God's way of doing things on the flip side of the coin.
  So that being said, we might consider the nature of Satan's "organization".
  What is it called exactly?
  Of course the answer is that the "organization" does not exist under a name, and yet its elements are apparent to us by scriptural definition. In particular John's first letter makes clear how the children of the devil and the children of God would be distinguished.
  Therefore, since Satan's people are not neatly identified by their joining up to any specific human organization by name, perhaps we should consider that God's people might also be identified by Jesus as his flock in a similar way.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-01 18:19:35

  If you have questions, jw.org? Really? There is no mechanism on the jw.org web site to place questions of this nature. The contact information on that site is solely for the purpose of requesting literature or a bible study.
  If one has a question, one must send a letter by regular post and wait for a reply. Many have tried this with the best of intentions, thinking quite sincerely and innocently that their questions would be answered. After two or three tries, they have given up in discouragement.

• Reply by hezekiah1 on 2013-04-01 18:28:25

  Thanks for your comment Roberta4949, I am on the same page as you when you say we do not worship Christ, nor pray through the anointed. And I don't have any problems when the GB makes mistakes. They are human. Indeed they are worthy of our respect. It is a difficult job they have.
  The topic of discussion here is whether undue attention is being attributed to the GB. As you have rightly pointed out, we worship Jehovah alone and pray to him through Christ Jesus. Yet I can see that at least locally where I live a marked increase in thanks to Jehovah for the GB, as well as praying for their blessing and protection. I have no problem in asking for Jehovah to bless and protect any brother or sister, but I look at this trend this way:
  If I were at a restaurant with friends and my food arrives, I might say thank you to the waiter for delivering it. However, wouldn't I especially say thanks for the one who provided it? The one who paid the bill? In a similar way, the GB serves and provides us food at the proper time, however doesn't most if not all praise belong to Jehovah who provided it to us? The GB didn't invent truth. Truth was provided to us by Jehovah. That is why I find this trend to praise the GB so much a bit unsettling.

  • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-01 18:43:57

    Hezekiah
    Your illustration is spot on.
    And considering the inestimable price that Jesus himself paid, to just treat him in the same category as the waiter, and then gradually to let our thanks slip in preference for the waiter, surely cannot be pleasing to his Father.
    Apollos

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-01 19:44:59

I don't know if this means anything, but if you run a search on "Governing Body" and another on "Faithful Slave/Steward" in the WT Library, you'll find that following statistic from a word count of occurrences in the Watchtower:
"Governing Body", 1950-1989, average occurrence per year = 17
"Governing Body", 1990-2012, average occurrence per year = 31
"Faithful Slave/Steward", 1950-1989, average yearly occurrences = 36
"Faithful Slave/Steward", 1990-2012, average yearly occurrences = 59
What is of interest is that it was in 1993 that the "Proclaimers" book first came out. It identified the Governing Body showing pictures of each member. There seems to have been a slow, but steady shift in our attitude toward them since that time forward with increased attention on the role they play in our work.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-02 13:48:30

  The transition we seem to have made over the years (and here I am talking about more than 100 years) is:
  Phase I: All allegiance should be to God and His Christ. No allegiance to any man made organization. (This was what C.T. Russell held to be true)
  Phase II: Allegiance to God is shown by allegiance to his earthly organization, but not to any specific men. (This phase probably pivots around 1933 when a formal name was given to the organization, but it was still an evolutionary development over a period of many years. Here I am only describing an official position since it seems many were loyal to the person of Rutherford even when his teachings had no scriptural basis.)
  Phase III: Allegiance to God is shown by allegiance to specific named men (AD 2013)
  Our literature and public teaching has explicitly said that our salvation depends upon our association with, and our active support of, the faithful slave. The slave has now been defined as a group of specific men.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-02 14:22:23

An interesting and somewhat disturbing extrapolation. The phase II understanding was palatable to many, including myself at the time, because we understood the remnant of anointed ones were going to rule in heaven. However, moving to phase III and continuing to apply the belief that we need to work in complete support of and allegiance to the FD&S means surrendering our will and discernment to a tiny group of imperfect humans with a proven track record that includes many embarrassing failures of interpretation. It is a subtle but highly significant change of direction. We are now in danger of disobeying the command of God to 'not put our trust in nobles nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs.' (Ps. 146:3)
Well, that simplifies matters enormously, doesn't it? We must obey God as ruler rather than men. Those words were first spoken to the rulers of Jehovah's people Israel at a time that the covenant was still in force.
It does make things easier on us when it becomes a matter of integrity to God.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-04-02 19:59:03

Ones who post on this site seem to have more knowledge than I do at this point so take my question as such. If scriptures were inspired by Jehovah but no one on earth can claim to be inspired directly from Jehovah then how can we be sure that any interpretation any of us have is correct? As far as we know even our best understanding could be nothing more than a guess on many things that are not clear to us. I'm only a man who has time and time again been humbled but one thing even I came to realize as truth.... Jehovah in his due time has always made things perfectly clear. Ones in the past as well as today tend to rush to be the first to say "we're the first to understand" or we believe our viewpoint is actually correct. While I think Jehovah loves it when ones try to search out the deep things about him, his qualities, what makes him happy, learn about his son and how to treat each other I think for certain things he looks at us as kids trying to understand how clouds are made, logic we just cannot comprehend, nor the time or are we ready for such.
I'm guilty of taking offense from others and find out they were unaware of their actions. So I think in prayers it just might be imitating how others pray. Even if the GB was taking more attention to themselves or including them more in prayers then how are they any different than the apostles who argued who was greater or some who thought more of themselves in past times? With my limited knowledge of the GB I do believe they truly want to do the right thing even like many Christians around the world, JW's or not, might interpret the bible different than the way Jehovah intended but strive to live by it. Are we any different if we say our viewpoint is 100% right only to not truly know Jehovah's actual viewpoint on the matter? Apostles, Saul and MANY prophets and servants in the past had incorrect reasoning's but still had Gods blessings. If intentions are not pure such as the Pharisees and Sadducee then I trust Jeh will weed out. We have all these excellent examples of past ones but we're not living with them day by day to see their errors. I sometimes wonder if we were there with Moses, David, Peter and others would we also question all their decisions or interpretations as well? That's not comparing the GB to them just a thought. If we feel their lead is not correct then our responsibility is to "get out of her", but if we believe they are trying then aren't we also told to respect those taking the lead? If one day I believe the org is leaning in ways I cannot support then I wouldn't need a blog or others to lead me that direction I would not have any part of a org that goes against my conscience.
I think some if a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses forget we are Christian bible students first and foremost. To be honest.. we are nothing special. We're even taught not to think more of ourselves than normal and even been counseled not to "lord it over others" or take on a holier than thou attitude. We're not promised anything more special than anyone else that Jehovah deems worthy to be in paradise or heaven. That's how our organization started, as bible students wanting to please Jehovah the right way and educate others so it's somewhat understandable some would question everything that is talked about at meetings or publications. However, since the start we've had many things change in our viewpoint of the bible, many things that even some here might have been just as confused about the GB, elders, etc might have as well. These changes STILL might be wrong but I believe Jehovah soon will make a lot things we just guess about clear. We started out as bible students wanting to please Jehovah but somehow took on the absolute position as "judges" stating we were the ONLY ones to get info right, although MANY publications we quote from others and the only people to be saved except those in the bible or who never were preached to even though Jehovah has only stated ones who earnestly seek him and do his will are the ones saved NOT just JW's. My worry is more about how JW's would handle it if like Jonah we found out our limited viewpoint on who should be saved was incorrect or we think someone shouldn't be a spokesman of God like Korah and others did. The thing I pray more about rather than understanding dates, where we're at in the last days or things that are not for us to understand at this time is for us to get back that love of one another and others. The love we learned about in our Watchtower study about Paul. I also pray for Jehovah for more time for us and others to change lives since while I desperately want to live away from this crazy world I too don't want ones to die and that includes me in changes I need to make.
Sorry for the book... I do not know where we are in the days of the end nor can I say 100% if what the GB says or does is backed 100% by Jehovah all I can say is I do 100% know if Jehovah thinks sincere Christians who want to serve him are at risk of being deceived or burdened like in the past Jehovah will rectify it.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-02 20:19:53

  Please don't apologize for the length of your comment. You should say what you want to say however many words it takes. You make some very good and balanced points which I appreciated.
  I also hope that wrong doctrine will be corrected soon. In the meantime we will still have to keep on the watch for anything that is out of kilter with God's Word, since we are accountable individually.
  Apollos

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-04-02 20:34:08

    Thanks. I definitely do not mean ANY disrespect nor was it directed to anyone specifically.
    Question, how do you believe the GB should be involved in our Christian org?

    • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-02 21:37:46

      I don't personally know any of the brothers who currently make up the GB. According to scripture they have the opportunity to be faithful slaves of Jesus along with all Christians as his fellow workers. They evidently have additional opportunities that have been made available to them due to the influence that they have inherited over a large organization of people who earnestly desire to be Christian. Anyone who would be a shepherd of the flock of God purchased with the blood of his Son certainly has a great responsibility.
      Apollos

      • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-04-02 23:47:09

        So if we as bible students decided to join a religious org were men have decided to take the lead of our specific group of Christians is yours and others concern that those taking the lead are somehow not following principle or were and are not now? I've seen some from this blog say God shows he's behind the organization since how could it thrive globally and expand the preaching. However others have asked me pointedly when some bring up points like you and others about the GB or elders, information, teachings, etc and state we are not as united as we seem or that we rely on magazines, publications etc instead of the bible.
        As someone who is eager to know truth and works hard daily to obey God's word I'm conflicted because I understand both sides (yours and GB and others) but it confuses people like me even more about how I serve God the right way and if Jeh really approves of how we do things or if he does and questioning as we or I do might actually go against his will.

        • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-03 07:14:41

          It is important to keep in mind that this site is intended to generate discussion and research. It is a difficult balance to question what we “know” to be true, and yet not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
          Some people take extreme positions. One extreme is to decide that certain men are the custodians of absolute truth, and therefore there is no onus on the individual to “carefully examine the scriptures daily as to whether these things are so”. Such an individual has surrendered his will and put his “trust in nobles”.
          The other extreme is where a person discovers that something he believed to be true is not, and as a result he abandons all belief. Sadly some have even lost their faith in the existence of God.
          When we can come to terms with the fact that being a member of a particular religion does not automatically make one a Christian, we can begin to look at the situation objectively. There can be no question that our organization teaches a high moral standard based upon God's Word. We have rejected certain doctrines that have no basis in scripture. We have been provided with a method of carrying out Jesus' commission to preach. This all creates a positive environment in which we can practice Christianity. But that does not oblige us to accept something that is untrue along with the good. Our knee must bend to Jesus, and not to any man.
          There is an axiom that I have heard doing the rounds over the years that God can overlook error, but he will not bless disobedience – or something like that. The idea is that even if we are wrong on anything as an organization, we are still required to go along with it since God has appointed the channel. When I get some time I think I will post an article about that. In the meantime, have a think about why that cannot be absolutely true. The answers can be found both in scripture and in history.

Comment by miken on 2013-04-03 10:57:16

"In the meantime, have a think about why that cannot be absolutely true. The answers can be found both in scripture and in history."
Apollos I look forward to your article for it must examine if the 1919 appointment has undisputable evidence to support it both from scripture and the history of the society up to and during the 1919 period. It is not insignificant that this topic is missing from the Faith in Action part 1 video and this topic is not addressed in any depth as part of the normal home bible study program. Surely to make the claim that an 8 man governing body are God and Christ's only true earthly representatives requires convincing evidence to set us apart from similar claims by others such as the Mormons and Roman Catholic church. Don Cameron has demonstrated there is reasonable doubt about the 1919 claim it will be interesting to see if your research casts doubt on his findings. I think it important to remember that what the Bible Students were being examined on was their beliefs and practices prior to and in 1919 not any "new light" changes made subsequently.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-04-03 11:53:50

apollos0falexandria
But there's my dilemma... I agree that we cannot blindly follow GB or any person for that matter, in or out the org, however the Jews still followed the lead of the Pharisees and Sadducee even though they burdened the people and were not punished for "following men". People followed David's lead although his actions led to the death of thousands of maybe innocent people but Jeh still classified him as righteous and those against him as opposite. Did some people follow them without question? Absolutely! But I think the most important thing is "intent. If we preach Jehovah is loving then how unloving would it be for him to judge us unacceptable for following the lead of ones even you mentioned leads over an org that does it's best to lead according to the bible? Jesus even showed respect to Pharisees and Sadducee more than I think anyone else would have since when they tried to trap Jesus in an argument he respectfully let them expose themselves by using bible based logic. One of the main scriptures I used to use in service when people talk about how to choose a religion is to observe it's fruits, well you pointed out many excellent things about the org which the GB and other leaders have been a part of assisting. If they were somehow not doing things right then would it not be safe to say it's fruits would also be tainted? If we are to question intent then to be honest there are many ones in congregations with MORE a pious, holier than thou, judgmental clique and attitude than I've ever seen with the GB. I've been turned off and admit stumbled by the lack of love I've seen in several congregations. It seems current WT about elders shows the GB is listening and slowly making needed adjustments that I did appreciate but in reality once again aren't we all just bible students who want to serve Jehovah the right way? We all are nothing special and while we do a preaching work it's work that Jeh could have had rocks do so kinda humbling.
Can't ALL JW's be classified as thinking more than we should about ourselves like you mentioned about the GB? We tell others only we have the truth but we constantly reference articles from other religions or non JW's and get a lot wrong that even other students got right before us. It's also taught to us only through our org salvation belongs meaning if you're not a JW then you're going to die at Armageddon when there is no bible basis for that, even Jeh has said every man that's acceptable to him he approves. We cannot judge and for all we know there may be millions of non JW's currently living Jeh loves and deems worthy, would we want Jeh to judge all of us the same way we do with the GB if he did not approve of our statements but we misunderstood?
So I see your point but still torn. On one hand I do agree there are some things that I do not understand or have a difficult time agreeing with mentally such as any questioning is a form of apostasy, how some elders handle something so serious like DF so casually to even some of the points you mentioned on this very blog from our past or present understanding. However if I'm wrong though and actually speaking abusively about who Jehovah approves then I am against Jeh and no different than Korah. If someone says how do we know Jehovah approves them then someone could also say then why aren't we just focused on being better Christians individually and not be a JW and just be a Christian who follows the bible, associates with ones who share his or her basic principles and tells ones about the bible since then worship goes DIRECTLY to Jehovah and Jesus and not through the GB or elders... See my point? If even you say this org is excellent and things taught are better than other religions then I of course would think that what they say then MUST be from God or that they will just be readjusted in the future like he has with others in the past. Does the owner of property chastise the sheep for following what they thought was a good Shepard employee to areas they should not go? Then why would Jehovah then punish me for only trying to do what the bible says and follow those taking the lead?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-03 13:57:14

  With respect, you are wrong about one thing. The Jews were punished for following men. Note Peter's words at Pentecost:
  (Acts 2:23) .?.?.this [man], as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, YOU fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with.
  He accused the people, not just their leaders, of delivering up Jesus to be impaled. His listeners asked what they had to do to avoid punishment and he answered:
  (Acts 2:37-38) .?.?.Now when they heard this they were stabbed to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Men, brothers, what shall we do?” 38?Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.
  Those who did not repent but continued to follow men died horribly in 70 C.E. or shortly thereafter as Roman slaves. So there were punished for following men.
  True Christians do not follow men. To be a Christian by definition means to follow the Christ. The Bible speaks of overseers appointed to shepherd the flock, but that is a metaphor we must be very care not to abuse. The is only one shepherd and one "governing body".
  (Matthew 2:6) .?.?.for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.’”
  We have no problem with the idea of a group of men directing the work earthwide. Like a board of directors in any corporation, they direct the workflow, allocate resources and set policy to guide the company successfully. The term "governing body" is unfortunate in that it speaks of government, and of course, worldly government or the government of men is what we are all waiting on Jehovah to eliminate as it always does harm, to a greater or lessor degree.
  But let's not quibble over terms right now. Our point is that we should support all the men how are working with us to get the work done that Jesus commissioned us to do. We should not speak abusively of anyone, including the members of the Governing Body, and I don't think we have done that. (Correct me if I'm wrong in stating that.)
  However, having said all that, it is a command of God that we do not follow men, but only his anointed Son. Therefore, no man or group of men have the right to demand of us loyalty that we owe only to Jesus and the Father. They simply do not have that right. To say that we must accept what they teach unquestioningly is to encroach dangerously on the jurisdiction of the Almighty. If they should do that, it is not up to us to do something about it. Any correction or adjustment that is called for is also within Jehovah's jurisdiction, and we do well to avoid usurping his authority by attempting to take matters into our own hands. However, that doesn't free us entirely from responsibility. In short, if directed to act in a way that goes contrary to Jehovah's instructions as transmitted through his Word, his Son, we must obey God as ruler rather than men--whatever the personal consequences for ourselves. (John 1:1)

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-03 14:48:06

  I wholeheartedly agree with Meleti's comments.
  Just to add with regards to your statement that “Jesus even showed respect to Pharisees and Sadducee” ...
  I don't think the condemnation we find in Matt 23 and other passages could truly be said to be respectful. Ultimately Jesus said to follow the direction of the religious leaders (Matt 23:3) only insofar as they were relaying the Mosaic law. Keeping the law was of course a good thing for the people of the time. But ultimately the scribes and pharisees tried to direct people away from Jesus. They denied who he really was, and his role in God's purpose. Evidently anyone who kept following them was heading in the wrong direction.
  Therefore it is possible, and indeed scriptural, to SELECTIVELY respect and follow what people teach.
  I agree with you that “intent” is key. Unfortunately we cannot read other people's hearts, so we can only analyze our own intent. When it comes to following the teachings of others we have to be more objective. The only way I can see to do that is to measure what is taught against the touchstone of God's Word. In essence that is what we are trying to do on this site.

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-04-03 17:23:36

    To both that responded your digging deep into the bible is commendable as well as keeping the dialogue respectful which in a conversation is key. Let me try to clarify my statements:
    1. When talking about respect, true the scripture you referenced Jesus had strong words but that's understandable since he was perfect in the law and also knew the hearts and intent of these men. However Jesus refused to rebuke even Satan and died a perfect man so his words and actions even to those men while direct would have been firm but not say something to sin. That's not saying anyone with questions are sinning but when there are questions about the leaders of an org that is supposed to be the only TRUE org on earth from God then anonymous individuals tell us to question it then ones would question since you're trying to figure out the intent and logic of anonymous ones.
    2. When talking about the Jews not being punished I'm referring to the time when Jesus was on earth not in 70 CE. Unlike that time in our situation we don't doubt Jesus is Gods son nor doubt the bible is inspired of God. While not perfect I believe that individual support of any who lead in this org is 100% to please Jehovah. If Jesus was patient with people who rejected him do we not believe he would be patient and not punish sheep like ones in the future even if he/ Jehovah thought we relied too much on ones who seem to want to serve Jehovah? I don't think people are putting the GB in Jeh's place as much as trying to follow the lead to learn to please God. The biggest issue with what I read here about the GB is thinking more about themselves (something the apostles were also guilty of but still blessed) or if they are really the ones to lead but no one has giving any better alternative so until then this is as good as we got, unless you know something I don't? I cannot read hearts so I can only look at the body of work and although I don't understand or agree with everything I will give them the benefit of a doubt until they prove otherwise or teach things I cannot accept as truth unless proven by the bible. I think the BIGGEST issue actually in the org is regressing on loving one another. We've recently had talks about elders, treating people fairly, being overly judgmental or pious, prejudices and even not fully welcoming new ones. That is my biggest stumbling block as well as MANY who have talked me or even stumbled out the org.
    Trust me, there are a lot of questions not only I but a number of JW's have, some that have stumbled. If as some say we're in a testing period then I think of Moses time with Korah and his associates and I need to make sure I'm not on the wrong side so I would want clarification from you and others of the debate. Or like you say maybe they are steering away and this is just the start of a stumbling. Either way there are many like me who have reinvested in bible reading but when all publications at meetings are from the very ones you question then anything not clearly stated in the bible we rely on the interpretation of those taking the lead. Your thoughts?

    • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-03 18:02:39

      If you believe it to be the only true org on earth from God then obviously you will act accordingly. I have no vested interest in persuading you otherwise. Of course this belief is at the core of our organization. Every other doctrine that does not have firm foundation in scripture rests on it, since we must believe simply based upon the authority of those through whom God channels his truth. The problem that I, and others, have had, is that the multitude of errors that have been taught do not stack up with this framework of belief. Since we know that God is not in error, then we have to explain why he would permit this operation of error through his channel. Of course the alternative view is that his channel is through his Son and his Word and not through any exclusive group of men. The intent of the men may be good, but either they are God's appointed channel to the exclusive degree that they claim, or they are not. That is a fundamental truth that we each must decide.
      As far as anonymity is concerned I would love to have the freedom to communicate openly with you, meet for coffee if you were close enough, and discuss things as fellow Christians. It distresses me that an environment of fear exists whereby anonymity is required in order to have these conversations. You clearly are aware of the repercussions of certain things that have been said on this site, even though we have tried to maintain respect to all of our Christian brothers, including the GB.
      I completely understand your concerns about not being a modern day Korah. This concept has been used very effectively to assert authority. But it is interesting that we have to go back to the Mosaic arrangement to find this parallel. It does not exist in the Christian Greek scriptures. The greater Moses is no man, or group of men, but is Jesus Christ himself.
      1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love.”

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-03 18:20:08

        Apollos makes a good point. The example of Korah has been misapplied to any who question the authority of the GB.
        Let's remember that Moses was clearly God's channel. Moses did not bear witness about himself. Jehovah bore witness about him by granting him the power to perform miracles. Additionally, Korah wasn't complaining about some shortcoming of Moses, but was trying to replace him.
        That the GB are being used by Jehovah is not something we are disputing. However, the same can be said for all his faithful servants. Let us not elevate one over another.
        As Apollos points out, the greater Moses is Jesus, not any group of men today. Jehovah bore witness miraculously that Jesus was his appointed channel. Jesus did not bear witness about himself. The GB DO bear witness about themselves. How does John 5:31 stack up against those facts?

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-03 17:54:52

Regarding your second paragraph (numbered 1), I've reread it several times, particularly, the last sentence, and I don't understand your point. Perhaps, if you could restate it for me. I don't want to comment on it until I'm sure of your meaning.
As to paragraph #2, why would it matter that the punishment for following men didn't come upon them immediately? Those who followed men called out for the death of Jesus when Pilate gave them the opportunity to release him. Surely those who repented before Peter still carried that shame and burden the rest of their days. But they were not punished because they repented. The rest of the Jews of the time of Jesus did not repent and so were, eventually, punished.
Jesus and Jehovah are patient with us because they don't desire any to be destroyed, but there is a limit. We can't use their patience as an excuse to continue in a wrong course of action.
Let us be clear on one thing. No one on this site is suggesting that we do away with the GB or reject all their teachings. They have their place and it is clear that Jehovah is using them. We are stressing only that we remain balanced in our view of them, giving them the respect which is their due, but being watchful that we don't go beyond that. Our loyalty is to our God and his appointed king.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-04-03 20:42:37

#1 in a nutshell... JW's as a group know Jesus would not even rebuke Satan who is wicked but the same group of people believe God is working with said org so why would they then rebuke or question ones they think is leading earthly Gods org? I think I already got your answer going by your above posts so disregard.
Also little confused reading both your responses and my friend had the same feeling. Apollos said "The problem that I, and others, have had, is that the multitude of errors that have been taught do not stack up with this framework of belief. Since we know that God is not in error, then we have to explain why he would permit this operation of error through his channel. " To us that sounds A LOT like saying you don't believe God is backing the men leading the org since their are too many errors. But Meleti says it is clear that Jehovah is using them... so which is it?
We're the ones who named ourselves JW's but we are just Christian's so when we humbly accept that and not think more of ourselves then errors as you mentioned are more accepted. I'm for obeying Jehovah according to the bible and waiting on God to let things clear up and not taking upon myself to guess since it leads to errors, frustration and misapplication. I've even accepted the great tribulation or Armageddon may happen 50 - 100 years from now and i might be dead but as long as I trust in God and not worry about things I cannot control or my place then I can die without frustration like we see from many today thinking it should have came already. In that way none of us get the errors or change in scripture knowledge that I'm sure even ones here have had to adjust.
After deep thought late last year I cannot shake that while we started as bible students to serve God more accurately and educate over the years all of us made ourselves bigger than what we are, not just the GB. Just because we have greater bible knowledge than before through more study and research/ material available through the internet doesn't mean we are the only ones God approves. Sitting on the judgement throne and saying we are the only ones being saved or Gods only gives cause for future stumbling if like Jonah Jehovah saves more than WE believe now. But as you mentioned Apollos there is a lot of back and forth and growing up in the org for over 30 years with many just wanting to serve God the right way but while being respectful of present day people who take the lead to educate we also must test out others viewpoints which is what my point was today. Trying to feel out what was deep in your hearts since sometimes I get you respect them and just endure them and then other times I get almost a "trust ourselves" vibe. I do enjoy reading your blog so do not take this as an attack, just need to make sure your viewpoint is not going against my core belief.

Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-04 08:31:25

Don't necessarily assume that Meleti and I are of one mind on all things. I have the utmost respect for Meleti's viewpoint, and his thought-provoking articles, but we are still two individuals. If you assume that we are both always on exactly the same page then you may find some dissonance in the comments made. This has no bearing on our unity as Christians, but to understand that you have to remove yourself from the mindset that uniformity of belief is required to achieve unity as brothers.
That having been said I do not necessarily disagree with Meleti, or with you, that Jehovah is using the GB. But I would like to turn that question back to you and find out exactly what you mean by that. After all Jehovah used the king of Babylon and other non-worshippers. No, please don't get me wrong. I am not equating the GB with those, but I am simply demonstrating that to say that God is using a man or group of men does not mean anything about the spiritual appointment of those people in and of itself.
Do I believe that the 8 men on the GB are the sole channel for God, and the present day sum total of the faithful slave that Jesus spoke of? No, I do not. Do I believe that Rutherford was appointed as the first faithful slave and sole mouthpiece of God at the time? No, I do not.
I do not come to these conclusions from a position of judgement of any person or persons. Ultimately I, you, the GB and all who call themselves Christians, along with all who don't, will have to stand individually before the judgement seat of God. There are evidently many rightly motivated Christians who identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses. We both know that there must also be some non-Christians who call themselves JWs. That is just the reality. But on the whole the standards that are promoted within our religion are much more elevated than the world in general, and so the congregations create a brotherhood in which we can practice true Christianity.
However, the flip side is to question whether there are also Christians outside of this organization. The official, and I would say judgmental, answer to this is “no”. That is also something that I have come not to believe. I think that you imply that you have had a similar thought process, although whether you believe that there are Christians outside of the organization, or whether you just feel that non-Christians might preserved through Armageddon wasn't clear to me. In any event, if there are non-JW Christians, then they are not such as a result of following another religion or group of men, but rather because they follow God's Word and the leadership of his Son. The same is true of us.
If we see issues with our form of worship then certainly one option is to “wait on Jehovah” and do what we're told in the meantime. But if that is an acceptable stance then why could a sincere Catholic not say the same thing? It all comes back to whether these specific men truly did receive that special appointment in 1919 as is claimed. If you believe that then you will act accordingly as I said. But are you happy to ultimately be judged on the actions of others? If something wasn't right, will we be excused if we just say we were following direction? I do not want to be dogmatic about the answer, but the scriptures seem to indicate otherwise. You made a good point that “intent” must be a key factor. That is why Jesus examines the kidneys and the heart. If we were only judged on our actions then that wouldn't be necessary.
So when we see a trend of elevating men and sidelining Jesus (in our public prayers for example) should we just quash any disquieting thoughts that may arise, or do we talk about it? The comments from people who think that everything is fine if we don't mention Jesus, or if he doesn't appear in our organizational hierarchy illustration, are a wake up call for me. The fact that people within the organization now have been conditioned to largely accept this emerging change without question or concern is a red flag right there.
You are right that it would be wrong to “trust ourselves”, but the alternative is not to “put our trust in nobles”. Proverbs 3:5,6 gives us the proper course: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.”
Some will say, yes but we do that by trusting in his appointed channel. If a person is fully convinced of that appointment based upon scripture, then of course this is a perfectly reasonable extension of the belief. Hence so much rests on that original foundation. And that is why so much of this site has focused on addressing the scriptural and historical facts that would enable us to evaluate it more clearly.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-04-04 10:09:51

Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I was not clear but my humble opinion was I believe there are other agreeable Christians outside the JW org that Jehovah approves. Am I saying all Christian worship is agreeable, absolutely not! But, there have been many people in my journeys in life where people really do work HARD, unfortunately harder than I and many JW's do/ did, on trying to please God the right way, live according him his word and even preach to others about God that were not JW's. Seems like if you have to be a JW then a lot of people who seem to be God fearing would be destroyed.
For 30 years I've been told by parents, elders and publications we loose Gods approval and die forever at Armageddon questioning anything so you do become fearful. And while I 100% realize respect must be giving why would conversations or inquiries be examples of apostates if the persons heart was in the right place? There has been some legit questions and concerns I cannot shake but not sure if that is incorrect reasoning on my part or legitimate concerns. While I immediately look away from sites that are obviously only their to bash JW's this site at least seems sincere in it's devotion to get things right. When people in service brought up errors and interpretation issues from the past I always mentally called them apostates and said it was Satan testing me. However, in some cases, such as my friend he was actually curious. When my sister in-law also asked me about things (she became a JW but afterwards was questioning our history) I started doing research and was shocked and to be honest embarrassed and stumbled greatly. Like ones on here have stated how can the only true org with Gods individual approval keep getting it wrong and on some levels INCREDIBLY wrong. If they are wrong about those things then what about other things? Then... the other side of me thought, many of those SERIOUS errors were a LONG time ago and maybe this IS the true org and Jehovah is cleaning house as we speak and by questioning the org I am in effect being cleaned out along with ones he does not approve, hence my line of questioning trying to either be convinced on one side or the other.
In this issue there is no "well if I get this wrong I will get another chance". So I take this very serious and changing over my life, invest more into the bible than ever before, changed my personality and even cut off ones who do not share my morality or principles. However... I still come back to, should I be a JW because it says its the only true org and have faith that Jehovah is using the GB even though I have reservations or don't agree with certain teachings (which sometimes feels like hypocrisy) or does God approve ones who obey him and serve him if not part while waiting on Jehovah.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-04 10:33:16

  Personally I don't think that anyone should try to dogmatically answer your question. But some perspective is required on the situation. Even if the claim to be the single true organization is flawed, would you be better off elsewhere? It was many years ago that I came to a personal realization that our teachings on 1914 had many serious flaws. This was only as a result of personal study and research at the time. Since then I have seen that the evidence against 1914 being the start of an invisible presence is overwhelming.
  Nevertheless, I am glad that I did not abandon the organization. It has simply made me more aware that my status as a Christian does not depend on an unquestioning belief in men, or wearing the label of an organization. It is about our individual relationship with God.
  I admit that it creates dilemmas, since questioning of doctrine is against the ethos of the organization. Nevertheless I believe that it is our responsibility as Christians to "examine the scriptures as to whether these things are so", "to make sure of all things" and "not to believe every inspired expression". Since also I can see the potential danger of unquestioning acceptance of doctrine defined by men, then I find no alternative but to follow scripture, and where there is a conflict with our doctrine I choose to accept God's Word.

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-04-04 10:54:06

    Thanks for your patience and especially that last post. I also believe deep down the alternative is going to another Christian org that makes just as many mistakes or more or serving God solo which without friends or others to share would REALLY be depressing and boring. I hope to find a WARM congregation since I keep running into ones with no warm feeling or too many cliques where you're left out even though you reach out. Many have told me the same across the US.
    You've giving me some real perspective on why we should know our bibles and develop that individual relationship with Jeh since we don't get everlasting life by holding onto the skirts of others or relying on ONLY their knowledge of the bible.
    So how do you handle someone at the door in service or a study who wants to know about how we came up with 1914 or other things you may not agree with? Seems you're in a situation where if you say something you don't believe it's somewhat hypocritical but if you say what you feel it goes against core principles and once the person progresses or expands his/ her association your REAL feelings will be exposed and you could be labeled an apostate.

    • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-04 11:14:37

      Yes, good question. To be honest it happens so rarely in our neck of the woods that it has not been an issue for me. But I have no problem honestly telling someone that it is simply not a cornerstone of my faith. If it comes to it I would tell that to someone within the org face to face as well. It is the genuine truth, since as I previously mentioned, knowing that the doctrine is flawed has not pushed me away. I am not obliged to discuss any particular topic in detail with anyone. Nor am I obliged to teach anything that I disagree with from the platform. I will turn down a part if it would require me to be hypocritical in order to deliver it, and indeed I have done this from time to time.
      There are selective individuals who I do not mind discussing all of these matters face to face, but if I sensed that someone wanted to raise a subject in order to somehow "test my loyalty" then I wouldn't discuss it.

Comment by miken on 2013-04-04 14:38:24

"Nor am I obliged to teach anything that I disagree with from the platform. "
Apollos, What about when it comes to conducting a Bible study. As you have stated you believe the 1914 doctrine to be flawed so if you were using the recommended What Does The Bible Really Teach book, would you ignore the appendix topic
1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy? I asked a friend of mine who has significant differences with certain scriptural interpretations of the Watchtower society, what he would do if during his field service he found someone interested in having a Bible study. His response was that he would pass them on to another JW. This would of course lead to the possibility of becoming a JW. Perhaps you would just use the Bible alone but then there is always the question of which other Christians should there be fellowship with.Heb 10: 24-25.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-04 16:01:37

  No, I wouldn't necessarily pass the study on to someone else. I would explain that this is a current teaching unique to JWs and that the person should examine the topic to the degree that he feels is necessary. If asked I would say that it is not a doctrine that my faith rests upon.
  You must keep in mind that I am coming from a viewpoint where I don't believe that any single religion has absolute truth at this time. I believe that it is necessary for people to know Jehovah God and his Son, and as already stated I believe that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witness provides an excellent environment in which to practice the key principles of Christianity. I won't repeat all the reasons here. If someone new were put off by 1914, or worse if someone left the organization because of 1914, I truly think that they have lost sight of the more important things. They have indeed thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
  Let's face it, millions call themselves Catholic and never go to church. Many are even atheists. It seems overly critical to fault a practising JW who believes all that is important to a Christian, but chooses not accept certain less important doctrines that do not have sufficient scriptural basis.
  I understand that many will disagree with me and say you either believe it all, or not at all, but hey, it's a free world. If people wish to take that view then that's okay. But we have to recognize that it's also an imperfect world, where oftentimes there is no perfect option.

Comment by miken on 2013-04-05 13:03:29

"I understand that many will disagree with me and say you either believe it all, or not at all, but hey, it’s a free world"
But not a free JW world.
In response to a Question from readers in the WT April 1, 1986 - Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
the following is stated:-
"Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include"?
One of the beliefs is "That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence".
The response to the original question goes on to state:-
".......if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation". (See Titus 3:10, 11.)
So Apollos as long as you keep quiet in your congregation you will not be disciplined although in the past there was a letter to circuit servants suggesting that apostate thoughts (thought crime) were worthy of discipliary action.
With regard to a second comment of your "......I believe that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness provides an excellent environment in which to practice the key principles of Christianity"
Are you sure that the "Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness practice the key principles of Christianity"
A scripture often used by JW's is John 17:3 and with regard to gaining everlasting life it is necessary to "take in knowledge" (NWT) of both God and Jesus Christ. Other translations say "they may know you" and the Greek "to know" means not only know about (facts) but also have an intimate relationship with. Now with regard to God JW's would agree with this, but cannot with regard to Jesus Christ because they are not permitted to communicate with him through prayer as a primary way of developing a close personal relationship with him. The apostles and other early Christians prayed to, invoked or petition him (Greek), "calling on his name" (1 Cor 1:2 just one example) as he invited them to do so as recorded at John 14:14 in the original Greek. Indeed up until 1954 JW's did pray both to the Father and Jesus Christ and up until 1999 the society charter stated that they gathered "for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus;" As you know there are a significant number of scriptures where Christ invites us to have a close personal relationship with him. Just one example, John 14:23 "abode" Greek Mone - a staying, residence derived from Meno to abide, be present with.
The lack of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is, I believe, one reason the vast majority of JW's mistakenly publically deny him (Matt 10:32, 33) at their annual memorial meeting disregarding Jesus public instructions at John 6:48-59. To believe that only spirit anointed with the heavenly hope should partake of the emblems I believe to be mistaken, after all the disciples who partook at the original meal were not at that time spirit anointed although they appear to have had the heavenly hope.
I am not suggesting that JW's do not practice a significant number of key principles of Christianity, however the real personal relationship with Jesus as a part of their
worship is I believe missing. (Rev 5: 9-14)

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-05 14:44:35

  Thank you so much for bringing that to our attention, Miken.
  According to w86 4/1 p.31, these are some of the doctrines we must believe in to avoid being disfellowshipped:
  "That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence.
  That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward.
  That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near.
  That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise.
  That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep"." (w86 4/1 p. 31)
  Pretty serious consequences for not toeing the party line, what? And the justification for such a stance? They follow on the same page with this line of reasoning:
  "Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship." (w86 4/1 p. 31)
  HOLD ON JUST A MINUTE! Didn't we do the very same thing with our teaching that the ancient worthies were being resurrected in 1925? By this standard--note: a scriptural standard, not an organizational one--Yes, by this standard, Rutherford and his associates were doing the very same thing that Hymenaeus and Philetus did. They were preaching 'that the resurrection had already occurred, and they were subverting the faith of some.' So that would make Rutherford and those who supported this teaching, apostates. Isn't that the precise reasoning being applied by Paul, and by the writer of this particular "Question from Readers". Is there another way of looking at it?
  Indeed, we still preach that the resurrection of the anointed occurred in 1919. Is there any Scriptural proof for that teaching or are we still following in the footsteps of Hymenaeus and Philetus?
  Then there is this statement from the final paragraph of the article.
  "Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation."
  The key phrase is "promotes false teachings". How many false teachings have we promoted over the past 100 years? We're well into triple digits and that is a matter of public record. So should all these past promoters have been disfellowshipped? Nonsense! They continued in good standing and continued to promote teachings that have subsequently proven to be false. So "false teaching" isn't defined as a "teaching which is not true". In this instance, "false teaching" means a teaching the Governing Body doesn't agree with.
  The article concludes with this reassurance:
  Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.
  Unfortunately, recent statements in the Watchtower, and at last year's circuit assembly and district convention, indicate that we seem to be taking a tougher stance. Now if we even think the GB is wrong--even keeping such thoughts to ourselves--puts us in a position of opposition.
  I'm not sure where this is going to lead, but it is turning into a real test of integrity.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-04-07 13:54:56

Brother Noumair, a Gilead instructor, reminded the most recent class they need to continue to do God’s work in God’s way stating King Saul serves as a warning example in this regard. He began his kingship as an unassuming, humble, modest man. Soon, though, he was “writing his own script,” doing what he thought was right and glorifying himself. God rejected him for his disobedience. He also admonished the students: “Be careful not to equate being used by God with having divine favor.”
This statement, although I think it's ironic Society authorized this, is what I believe after months and months of deep thought. We cannot preach having accurate knowledge if we rely on our own understanding. Jehovah has not talked directly to anyone, we just at this time have bible instructions until the future when more will be revealed from him through Jesus. A humble approach is to consider all of us as fellow workers, and this responsibility includes ALL Christians event though many do not, using our time to preach about Jehovah and how observing his commandments please him without titles or "classes".
Seems instead of rushing for rewards or claiming things only Jehovah can label we should be patient and let Jesus reward those as his "faithful and discreet slave" and provide accurate direction.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-04-07 14:07:07

  I couldn't agree more and it troubles me that such simple truths seem to escape those taking the lead among us.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-04-07 19:25:38

  Interesting points. It is precisely the principle I was alluding to several comments above when I asked you what you might mean by the GB being used by God. "After all Jehovah used the king of Babylon and other non-worshippers." I think through your comments I can get a pretty good sense of where you stand on this, and it seems we are likely on the same page. But it should keep all of us on our toes in our endeavors to be Christian - whether or not we happen to be wearing labels such as elder or GB.