Fighting Depression

Comment by Harrison Webster on 2013-08-02 02:53:46

Thank you very much for this article.
It has confirmed for me what I was told by my Therapist, who is helping me with depression, that one large contributory factor is what she termed "Cognitive Dissonance" which means the great difficulty of holding on to opposing views in ones mind.
I am a little at a loss as to what to do about it, her advice, well meant of course, is to stop attending Meetings for a while, and better still, move away and give everything a rest.
I do not feel that either course is an option for me at present.
I too have to "bite my tongue" many a time, not just at Meetings but in conversation too, as a lifelong lover of God's Word, and quite a student of it, I can see the many times when our Brothers miss the point of scripture, often because the whole context has not been considered.
I do feel the Brothers in the writing department bear some responsibility in this, as they seem to use verses and phrases to prove a point without considering the rest of what is taught in Scripture, as you ably point out in your article.
We cannot be disloyal to our God, but we must shoulder the responsibility personally to find out what his Word truly says to us.
Thank you again.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 08:44:58

  "Cognitive dissonance"...now that's a term I will not forget. Thanks for that and your thoughtful comment. I was looking for a term to describe what I have been feeling lately at meetings. I figured there had to be one.
  In discussing some of the more outrageous teachings we have now--"This Generation" comes to mind--with friends, I find that most just don't want to go there. It's not that they disagree with the challenge to our teaching. Rather, they are so uncomfortable with where the challenge will lead that they go into a self-induced state of denial.

• Reply by on 2013-08-06 12:22:15

  Thanks so much Harrison, that explains exactly the gnawing discomfort i feel at the meetings. On the one hand i want to be with the brothers and sisters. On the other i think "how can i be such a hypocrite to be here and listen to this". Yes there are many truths, but I think we can all agree there have been many missteps as well.

Comment by Kyp on 2013-08-02 04:45:45

Well, we have to understand how our brothers and sisters think.
They are sitting in the congregation, nodding their head, thinking: "Yeah, we are truly the only religion on earth that understand these deep truths in the Bible about life on earth and trinity and hell. We are the only ones that go from door to door, We are the only true Christian on the whole earth and I am one of them if I have a good behavior and partizipate in service regularly." (Many years I thought the same way.) And by thinking this way, we make ourself specialist in condemning other people and other religions, and in my today's view this is something very wrong.
You see - there's no place for doubts or cognitive dissonance in the minds of most of our brothers and sisters. "They Governing Body understands the Bible much more better than I do, why not trust them? They showed me so many truths in the Bible, so why be disloyal?"
My experience tells me, that there are truly not many brothers and sisters that escape this thinking of exclusivity and concentrate on what the Bible _really_ teaches (it's kind of a paradox to name a yellow book we all know this way).
P.S.: Just to prevent misunderstanding of my comment: I love my brothers and sisters and I acknowledge the many good things within the organization. But without being blind for the bad things.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 08:47:43

  Too true. We have been taught repeatedly that we are in an ark-like organization. "Just stay in the boat and be saved," we are taught. We twist Peter's comparison about baptism being like Noah's ark into something it was never meant to represent.

Comment by Dorcas on 2013-08-02 11:50:26

Thank you for this, Meleti. I'd like to thank you for all your hard work because it is greatly appreciated. I'm glad you addressed this because it is very difficult for me, due to personal circumstances, to get to the TMS and Service meeting. This week I was able to attend and I kept wondering why I made such an effort to be there. I was SO uncomfortable listening to the #2 talk and keyed in on the very same things you did in the Service meeting. I sat there thinking, "am I the only one hearing and discerning what's being said?"
Yes, cognitive dissonance is a term that's been particularly used in reference to Witnesses. While it feels derogatory it also feels correct to say that is what I'm experiencing. It's also sad to realize others are feeling the same.
On another note, I wonder if I am the only sister who posts here. If I am, I also wonder why. Is thinking for ourselves something the sisters have also given up to their husbands, the elders or GB? Maybe it's easier to let someone else do the thinking for us as we just go along. Unfortunately, I don't think that's scriptural or maybe I'm just grumpy and depressed today.

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-08-02 12:15:00

  "On another note, I wonder if I am the only sister who posts here." Frankly, I doubt you are Dorcas but I can also assure you that there are plenty of women therapists that are far more discerning than us men who go to them.
  "If I am, I also wonder why. Is thinking for ourselves something the sisters have also given up to their husbands," Which I suppose is better than giving up ON your husband! (humor helps....)

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 12:18:31

  You are most welcome, Dorcas. And allow me to thank you in return for the encouragement, because it is not an easy thing to maintain this forum; though it has its own rewards.
  I can also assure you that you are not the only sister commenting on the site. The necessary use of aliases often hides gender, but there are many fine sisters who feel as you do. They're frustrated at what they see as the progressive hijacking of our faith.
  I'm reminded that it was to his faithful female disciples that the resurrected Jesus first appeared. And when they spoke of it, the men didn't believe them. Perhaps Jesus did it that way to teach his mail disciples a lesson. In any case, their love for him seemed unconditional and is an example for all of us today.

  • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-08-02 13:00:11

    "not easy to maintain this forum" is an understatement, Meleti. The hijacking of our faith in not exclusive those ruling over us. There are also those who will hack away here as they have other sites, reducing them to negative talk that leads nowhere, destroying them, not realizing that the spirit flows through the humble comments of those who yearn for a place to commune in fellowship.. Christ searches and listens to his sheep. He doesn't monitor and protect a groupthink forum at their expense.
    I find it so refreshing to see how you've monitored the comments here so insightfully. It's a lot of work and requires an empathetic heart. I sometimes imagine myself sitting next to you and all participants during meetings, nudging each other over each conflicting teaching. Better than any therapy I say! That's why we need to be at those meetings. There are so many like us, sufficiently gagged but not without our prayers and spiritual thoughts.
    Love in Christ to all of you!

Comment by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 12:35:43

I think much of the depression stems from an unproductive and frustrating ministry. We're told to try and start Bible studies every first Saturday of the month. The friends show up for service and we go to the territory. We may actually find a few people home, but placing a Bible Teach book with someone and then arranging for a study that will last at least six months can prove challenging. I went to a door once and just read the householder a scripture dealing with God's care for us. I didn't try to place any literature and was surprised at the look on the householders' face when I just walked away.

• Reply by mdnwa on 2013-08-02 13:08:16

  I agree. Most seem to be more welcoming when I share something upbuilding from the bible and keep it brief rather than just pushing magazines on them for the sake. So many at my congregation you can tell just want to get placements or study they don't really use their bible.

Comment by mdnwa on 2013-08-02 13:16:28

I get the recurring point used on this site about the "tossing the baby out with the bath water" but when the org say things that seem contrary to the bible or feel more judged by people who are to treat me as family more than people who are "worldly" I cannot help but to be depressed. I 100% believe in God, believe in the bible as being his true word, believe his commandments are beneficial, even if sometimes I do fall short. I also see magazines with these examples of "love" but congregations I and others went to there's a lack of love, big time gossiping and social shunning. I'm told not to associate with ANY ONE outside the org but even trying hard to be a part of one I'm never invited or made to feel a part of it. If you're a single bros and sis even more so an issue especially when you get tired and do find association outside to just go to a beach or movie and ones doing FAR WORSE once again gossip.
You're fighting what the bible says and wanting to please God then what men on earth are saying that seems contrary and ones with a over the top judgmental or holier than thou attitude, something a brother from bethel ironically cautioned JW's against just two years ago. Preaching things you KNOW are not 100% bible based I feel like a hypocrite saying other religions teach wrong things but I'm doing the same. True you can say some in the org help clear up certain teachings but we started as bible students so you got to think we should at least get SOME THINGS right, but other religions have got other things right even we have not and we after years adapt as our own so we cannot use that as we're the only one theory anymore since we have to constantly change and we even reference other religions publications to back up our new points. My faith is shaken not in God but in the org so you fight internally with that since you hear to question the org is questioning God.

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-08-02 13:37:12

  Like sitting with a "worldly" therapist who's job it is to help you deal with your depression while feeling guilty that you are there needing help and reluctant to "give a fine witness" to your faith at the end of a session. The dissonant receptors wreak havoc on our entire bodies as we try to reconcile who's helping who, mixing the emotional depressive feelings with what we feel so guilty in not being spiritually intanct to share.
  Maybe we can appreciate how depressed Jeremiah must have felt trying to tell his dissident brothers such a contrary message given him directly from Jehovah.

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-08-02 14:09:43

    An elder who I confided in over 17 years ago that I went to a psychologist and subsequent psychiatrist for my very deep continual depression from things in my past made me feel WORSE saying I shouldn't had gone and if I just absolutely had to go and not take his advice and not just rely on elders and prayer to be careful. In addition to those past feelings I am not sure how I would talk about the org aspect of my depression. It was only within the last few years that the org stopped discouraging meds for depression, or at least in the congregations I've been in.
    I find it disheartening that as an org most are still stuck in the thinking that just prayer alone will solve everything when some clearly need more help and talking with someone who will do no more than recite sometimes misapplied scriptures will not come close to help. Part of me thinks some of my depression if not most would have been resolved if not going by his bad advice for all these years. :(

    • Reply by GodsWORDISTRUTH on 2017-01-19 07:39:08

      I recieved a very simliar reply!
      The elder that I trusted many years ago as a young girl made me feel weak for "seeking worldly help". He said, "Well now that you have sought help the wrong way give us a chance to readjust you spiritually. "
      I've never recieved a good response when attempting to seek professional help as a depressed pioneer. I can remember coming to this site and being amazed that I wasn't the only suffering in silence. I sought help after literally running away from home with the hope of continuing service to become a missionary one day. I just needed medical help. The congregation was very much against this choice and I was persecuted because of it.
      The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses cut generations off from education and professional mental health and it has left us broken or in some cases dead(suicide, attempts of suicide) .
      It is my hope that the Governing Body will address the psychological and spiritual harm they have inflicted on us by calling our generation(s) crazy and mentally diseased. All we want to is partake of the New Covenant by which all can enjoy a direct relationship with our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to observe the Lord's instructions without the Inquisitions and excommunications. Leadership should no longer support the unscriptural baptisms with the sole purpose of denying the operation of the Spirit on its members so that we cannot Reborn and enter the Kingdom that Jesus promised.
      Reform is too late. I believe that the Governing Body is in for a rude awakening. Jesus has weighed the scales and have found them deficit . The writing is on the wall. They will not Repent.
      Agape!
      Thanks for the listening ear....

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-01-19 08:09:59

        What we have here, GWIT is the forces of light and darkness.

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 13:43:14

  I find that the Pioneers in my congregation suffer far more from depression than the publishers. Feelings of guilt and unworthiness for not making their time or not being able to be like Sister Super-Pioneer has left some very frustrated and discouraged. On the other hand, the publishers feel ilke second-rate ministers when they see all those wonderfully happy and productive pioneers give their experiences at the District Conventions and Circuit Assemblies. When I mention from the platform that pioneering may not be for everyone, (because God may have something else in mind for you), I get looks of disbelief and bewilderment.

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-08-02 14:19:42

    Andronicus
    My father used to be a PO and a pioneer for over 20 years but lost his way and left the org for a couple of years. When he got back to reading the bible and recovered spiritually the one thing he said was he apologized for the type of leader he was and not showing better love to ones in the congregation and his family. Also the haughtiness he had being a elder and pioneer and pushing that on EVERYONE as the "cure all". He looked back and realized what you said that most were pressured into getting hours (which back then I believe was 60/month) but got the perks of being popular in the congregation so he liked the attention and recognition (i.e letter being read during meetings which I still don't understand why we do that).
    He now attends meetings but not as an elder and not a pioneer but it seems has never been happier. The elders he says now tell him he needs to pioneer to be happier which he said he just smiles and thinks of the irony since he now actually enjoys helping ones more with cutting the elderly grass, helping others with shopping, cleaning, and other things looked down but give him greater joy.

    • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 15:14:05

      Thanks for the reply, mdnwa. May Jehovah bless your Dad. He seems to have found his "gift" and appears to have found joy in showing that "love among ourselves".

  • Reply by Dorcas on 2013-08-02 15:10:46

    Andronicus,
    (Ephesians 4:11, 12) . . .And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ. . .
    Please notice how often the word "some" is used in these scriptures. I have always held closely to this scripture because we cannot all be and do the same things. We are individuals, with some better suited for pioneering, while others may be suited for helping and ministering to the needs of their brothers and sisters in a material way.
    So, while you may notice those who look bewildered I feel sure that there are those who truly appreciate your balanced and scriptural encouragement.

    • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 15:24:42

      Thanks Dorcas. I've used the example of Dorcas in the scriptures to show that her gift was the making of garments for members of the congregation, the doing of good to others. These they showed to Peter when he arrived there. I know Peter didn't ask, "How many hours was she putting in in service?".

Comment by erick on 2013-08-02 16:27:27

It would be interesting to know how many JWs honestly believe that they won't survive Armageddon. Several have admitted to me that they doubt that they'll survive. A few years ago I would have doubted that I'd survive Armageddon. My wife who is a pioneer admits she doesn't think she'll survive. My cousin has told me the same. As an elder a few confided in me that they also doubted their survival. If all JWs would honestly respond it wouldn't surprise me that less than half believe that they will survive. This is crazy. It is an elephant in the room. There is something very, very wrong.
The org. keeps piling on the pressure to do more and more and many if not the majority of JWs are suffering emotionally and mentally.

• Reply by mdnwa on 2013-08-02 17:08:01

  I'm fighting a weakness and I'm VERY hard on myself when I slip up so in my situation yes I do sometimes doubt I would survive, and it pains me to even type that. I even defend my feeling telling others that Jehovah is loving and if he does destroy me then something in my heart is REALLY wrong since he would not destroy someone he could change or was really a good person. As much as I would LOVE to live forever with loving people, being able to see my mom, and being able to FINALLY make true friends and expand a family I at the same time would be happy that other ones on here and in the world finally don't have to worry about death, pain, cruelty, depression or anything that gives them pain. That, to an extent, gives me peace that NO ONE will take away my respect for Jehovah or his will although of my imperfections.
  When you think about it thought it's sad since Jesus taught that following him, while we would have tribulations, we would feel confident in Gods love however to be honest... I feel more pressure, more judged, more unloved, more burdened in the org than I really think I should. Other people of other beliefs/ orgs with similar beliefs always make me feel better and less down but then the whole "one true religion" pops up so I stay in although staying depressed and confused. I 100% believe there has to be rules and regulations to follow but I do feel like the early ones when they were weighted down and just don't think that the TRUE org should have a growing number who are starting to feel this way.

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 17:10:06

  I agree with you Erick. I find that one of the most difficult things for me to teach in the congregation is how much Jesus loves us. I try to always take the friends back to his example of compassion and mercy, but seem to always find him playing second fiddle to the FDS. In some of the meetings, including the WT study, Jesus seems to be an incidental by-product of the "organization". "Did you miss Family Worship Night?-----shame on you!" You didn't read today's daily text?------shame on you!" "Your Watchtower magazine isn't underlined? God help you!"

• Reply by on 2013-08-06 12:13:10

  Thanks erick
  I agree the org keeps on piling on the pressure. After a DC or CA I almost always feel worse because i don't feel i measure up. I am doing my best, and yet I am told it is not enough.
  I have often comforted others who have felt this same way, saying that we cannot compare ourselves to others. Yet I see that is exactly what we are encouraged to do by the ever present pressure to pioneer.

Comment by on 2013-08-02 17:32:27

Times have change! DUHH!!!! We no longer live in bible times anymore,and it was easier to just get baptized, don't forget we are living in the last days, the early Christians WERE NOT, SO WE NEED MORE TIME TO GET BAPTIZED. DUUHH!!!!!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 22:42:37

  Not true. The early Christians were living in the last days. Read Acts 2:14-21. Additionally, there is no scriptural requirement that before getting baptized one should be attending meetings, commenting and going out in service for a period of several months so that other men can determine one's worthiness to dedicate oneself to God.
  Oh, and one more thing. Watch your tone. This is a Christian site.

Comment by emjeff on 2013-08-02 17:36:29

mdnwa
Your father is a true Christian. He is a blessing to his congregation. I only wish there were more like him. “Dear children, let's not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions.” 1 John 3:18 I also agree with Dorcas where she quoted Ephesians 4:11,12. Not all of us are suited to be evangelizers but perhaps some of us are better at consoling the depressed souls and supporting the weak. That is Christianity in action.

Comment by erick on 2013-08-02 18:09:17

Have no fear mdnwa, your Father loves you unconditionally! You are a beloved son of God. If you are a father could you imagine killing your son because even though he tried to obey you he messed up because of weakness or ignorance? Of course not. Are we to think our Father is more bloodthirsty than ourselves? Of course not.
Andronicus, you give examples of the very same lawyerism that Jesus faulted the Pharisees for.

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 18:41:05

  Thanks Erick for the encouragement. I also appreciate the thoughts and feelings of mdnwa. Sometimes before I go out to give a talk, I inquire about certain conditions in the congregation I'm visiting so I can apply the information to the needs of the friends. More often than not, the brother will tell me that many individuals are suffering depression, anxiety, or other emotional problems. However, the talk they want me to give addresses none of those issues. Go figure!

  • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-02 18:42:52

    Typing error in my last comment. Should read, "so I can apply the information to the needs....
    Sorry

    • Reply by on 2013-08-02 21:23:37

      Erick, I think the problem may be trying to "live up to our dedication". How many times has this phrase been used to somehow make us feel we're never doing enough. The Bible says we're under undeserved kindness, so the thought of ever trying to live up to a "dedication" doesn't make sense. Jehovah wants us to serve him out of love, not out of guilt. I'm not saying we shouldn't exert ourselves, as the scriptures teach, but the constant call to do more can leave us feeling deficient and unworthy. We then lose the "peace of God", condemn ourselves, and slowly forget the "love the Christ has", which compels us to serve God with joy.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 23:00:12

      Hi Andronicus, I just made the corrections for you.

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-08-04 14:39:03

    Thanks Eric and Andronicus for the encouragement. I feel in a no win situation where you get beat down by every day people you run across then you're make to feel worse in the one place you're supposed to feel better. Talking with the people you're trained to involves a small room with two other guys who, in my case, put you through interrogation rather than feel helpful support. People who are not JWs commend me being respectful, helpful and a good person and encourage me on my weaknesses without judgment but inside the org I feel like an outsider. I have enough stress to deal with outside the org and it just piles up within as well.

Comment by Hugo I. Matias on 2013-08-02 22:16:14

Many things may affect one's mind. In my case my own fight against myself and my tendencies have been something beyond my own strenght and, who can help? Sometimes I can't even pray to Jehovah (not because I'm practicing sin, because, thanks Jehovah, nothing has happen) and I have no confidence at all to the local eleders (one elder's wife usually knows what happen in the congregation).
Plus to all this, what you have say: You can't say anything against what is published. Worse than that: Here you can't say anything against what elders say (even when they themselves are contradicting what is published) because you are "rebelling against Jehovah, because showing lack of faith in elders is the same that showing lacking faith in Jehovah" (quoting some of what they have said from stage).
Probably you remember what happened to my brother (who was disfellowshiped after his "asking for spiritual help" of the "loving shepherds" who care for our good.) and now they're not happy with having him out. They're atacking my family by what they think is bad (the sitting of my brother next to me in the hall) WHEN THE WATCHTOWER JUST SAID THAT, THAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO! (Is just the simplest example of what have happened. Time won't let me tell everything involved.)
I know that leaving organization is not a really good option for me: I mean, i realized that I don't need congregation to have a personal relationship with God, but at the same time, I realized too that I need brothers. I decided to move to an English congregation where there are many mature brothers and sisters. Of course, there will be still that "Cognitive dissonance" problem regarding some things that the Organization says, but at least, I shouldn't fight against my feelings toward some people who require for respect, not for Jehovah's authority, but for THEIR authority.
I'm feeling so much better now, far away from people who don't help in my personal progress.

Comment by on 2013-08-03 00:17:28

Thanks, Meleti. I'm the anonymous of August 2nd. Another keyboard/Enter mistake from me.

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2013-08-03 00:23:43

Talking about depression, here is one quote that would depress anyone who understands that this is talking to those who Jehovah's Witnesses meet out in the field service or return visits and Bible studies, yet this same phrase is not applicable within the organization?
"No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family" Awake! July 2009, page 29
In view of the recent convention that has a talk about shunning love ones, this particular quote does seem to be hypocritical in the very least.
Of course this is just my perspective on this.

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-08-03 00:56:45

  We hear you, searcher for truth. And I suppose we could open up this to a unity in Christ versus uniformity to rules session but that would take a whole new thread, i.e. how we ask new ones to "make sure of all things" before baptism but "make sure of only one thing" after baptism.....uniformity.

Comment by Robert on 2013-08-03 10:54:31

Thanks for the very informative post, Meleti. I have also noticed how out teaching about the resurrection/changing of the anointed does not match what the bible plainly says. Another interesting text that highlights this is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:
"For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together* with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord."
Paul is clearly telling Christians that both the resurrected anointed and those who are alive will go to heaven together, at the same time! This is clearly indicated by the context. Notice he says that the living will not precede the dead. In this context, the use of the Greek word aema (the asterisked "together" in verse 17 in the NWT with footnotes) can only be reasonably interepreted as meaning both will go to heaven together. So the bible teaches that after the dead anointed are raised up, the living are changed then both go to heaven together. Therefore there can't be anointed christians in heaven while there are still anointed christians on Earth because that would mean the dead precede the living while Paul's words in context seems to geared at making the point that both the living and dead will go to heaven together. Or was Paul denying that the living will precede the dead and using the Greek word aema to mislead us into thinking that both will go together, while knowing that the dead will precede the living? Is that reasonable?
Speaking of cognitive dissonance, does anyone recall the service meeting of July 8 2013? The first part on the meeting was entitled: "Methods of preaching the good news - directing interested ones to the organization". It emphasized drawing bible student's attention to the organization - the organization that Jehovah is using - Jehovah's messenger. Then the last part on the service meeting entitled "Take as a patter the prophets - Joel" says this in the first paragraph:
"This humble prophet emphasized Jehovah's message, not his own role as the messenger. Likewise, in our ministry, rather than seeking personal praise or recognition, we direct attention to Jehovah and the Bible."
So it's wrong for publishers to emphasize their own role as Jehovah's messenger but it's ok for the organization to emphasize its role as Jehovah's messenger and extol itself in the publications.

Comment by on 2013-08-06 12:26:58

Thanks Meleti for an excellent article. It is good to see that there are other thinking people out there. It pains me to sit and listen and bite my tongue. And thanks for all the insightful comments.

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-08-08 18:42:30

  It;s even harder to be the TMS Overseer and have to bite your tongue!