Midweek Meeting Comments – Mar. 24, 2014

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-03-25 01:16:06

Dear Meleti, yes I to feel the indignation of Christ over paragraph 22:
“He delegates considerable authority to others, such as his Son." The audacity of them! esp. citing Matthew 28:18! I don't know how many others notice but perhaps our mental conditioning has been so 'considerable' we cannot even check context! Perhaps you've noticed that in all their writings the GB relegates Jesus to an employee in training, never quite trusted to be given full command without further guidance. It's as though he's on a short leash in tandem with his Father like a son who hasn't quite grown up yet.....nothing like the autonomy the Bible gives him.
Perhaps I'm too quickly becoming judgmental but I almost wish Jesus would show up at WT headquarters and demand an audience with these grossly disrespectful men! Then I think to myself, Wait a minute, didn't Jesus already say "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens?" I know exactly what they will say back: "‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’  And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21- 23)
Now is that misquoting Jesus? :)
sw

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-25 02:54:37

Smolderingwick, I don't think you sould judgemental at all. Your sound honest and sincere to me, Is it really being judgemental if it is the truth and you are stating fact?
Is not everything you said the truth?
"So Jehovah isn’t running things. This is the point we miss as Jehovah’s Witnesses." So true Meleti. I am finding this challenging, I've been so conditioned to think only in terms of Jehovah God, I have to keep reminding myself daily that Jesus is our one and only Savior.
I used to cringe evey time I heard Jesus this and Jesus that from those religious churchy people. Seems they had it right all along.
How is it that it took so long to realize this, blind or not, when it was in front of me the whole time?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-25 14:28:21

  >>How is it that it took so long to realize this, blind or not, when it was in front of me the whole time?
  It's a big club. Welcome aboard. Now if we could just get more of our brothers and sisters to come to this realization.

Comment by menrov on 2014-03-25 05:17:01

I can only agree with you regarding the way the GB approaches Jesus. My wife now knows that my position regarding the organisation and the GB has definitely changed. You can imagine that our discussions are quite intense but fortunately still respectful as I only use the bible to support my arguments and I feel somewhere she does realize that. The difficult thing is that she is sincere with respect to her devotion to Jehovah and she is only a "product' from the teachings from the organisation over the last 17 years. I think that she somewhere agrees with my arguments but at the same time she finds it hard to accept that the GB intentionally teaches wrong things. She was raised a Catholic and I was raised without any particular religion, I guess no religion at all. When I met her, she introduced me to her bible. We were married in a catholic church. After a few years, JW's came to our door and my wife was interested as she read in her bible that preaching was done door to door. I was not very enthusiastic but I joined out of curiosity. After 10 years my wife decided to be baptized and I joined her, not really because I got convinced but more out of loyalty to my wife. I know, wrong reason.
Now, 17 years later, my wife wants to understand why I did not notice these faults and wrong teachings before. And to be honest, I also have been thinking. I explained that although I had certain doubts or concerns due to behavior of some elders, my eyes were opened after the July 2013 WT, regarding the so-called appointment. And I explained her that the way we are taught almost eliminates other thinking. We are told not to talk to ex-JW's so how would you ever know what the reason was why they left. We are told not to read other publications than from the organisation. So, how would you know how others interpret biblical scenes. We are told not to engage or at least as little as possible, with non-JW's. So how would you be able to understand what drives these people. We are told that only our teachings and publications have the approval of Jehovah. So why doubt that as all the other organisations must be wrong, by definition. AND, when we do not comply to these rules, we will be treated as someone who possibly is mentally ill and might be considered an apostate.
Often the final question is, is there nothing good then with the organisation. I then explain that most JW's have good behavior, many are sincere and devoted and are interested in teaching other people. And then I add, that this does not provide proof of having Jesus's or Jehovah's blessing. In all fairness, I know various groups of other religious people that also behave very well, well dressed and are sincere. Moreover, many of these people also spend a lot of their time and resources to help the weak, ill and poor neighbors. Some of the organisations these people belong to also shows (real) growth.
At the end, I close the discussion that only faith in Jesus will save people (John 3:16 and many others), that real disciples are recognized by their love for one another (John 13:34,35). It is Jesus who gave that command (because he has been given ALL authority and is entitled to do that) and that indicates that not the hours in service is making the difference but our submission to Jesus as His own father said: This is my Son, listen to Him. Matth. 17:5.

• Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-03-25 06:47:24

  Menrov
  You mentioned that: "The difficult thing is that she is sincere with respect to her devotion to Jehovah and she is only a 'product' from the teachings from the organisation over the last 17 years."
  My wife also has in the past said things which were somewhat frustrating, since they were based on organizational rhetoric rather than scripture. One thing is realizing that we are all 'products' of those teachings to some extent or another, and not all of those teachings are wrong either (IMO). This personal outlook has helped to keep us on the same page through more difficult times, and now our thought processes are much more closely aligned.
  Her devotion to Jehovah is exactly the what can help you to reason with her. Apathy would be a poor alternative. Once someone who is devoted to God is clearly helped to see from the scriptures that such devotion is IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill without a true recognition of the role of Jesus Christ, and without the honor due to him, then the picture begins to change. Much of that honor is likely unwittingly being directed to men in the organization at present. And of course, showing honor to fellow Christians is not wrong (Rom 12:10). But it should not be the same honor that is due to our Lord (Phil 2:10,11), otherwise it becomes idolatry and our service to Jehovah becomes nullified (John 5:43,44), since we are no longer honoring Him (John 5:23).
  You are already using the scriptures in all your discussions. At the same time there are scriptures that at present you might repeatedly come at from different directions. In particular those that are heavily used in our publications have been deeply ingrained with selective meaning. There may be other scriptures which will be less familiar to your wife that may help her to understand what devotion to God means in accord with His unadulterated Word. In my view if the conversation ever comes down to a Jehovah vs. Jesus discussion, then both parties have it wrong. That may be something to bear in mind. Unfortunately with the insertion of the English/Hebrew name of God in the NWT Greek Scriptures, it makes this a difficult bridge to cross.
  The other thing to be wary of is sounding like you are promoting the positives of other organized religions. I certainly understand what you mean by what you wrote, but I can see that if presented in slightly the wrong way it could result in a raising of the energy shields. It may be better to gently help her to see that all religions have it wrong to one degree or another, and yet there is wheat among the weeds. What we have to do as Bible Students is separate out the issues based upon God's Word to "test the inspired expressions" wherever they may come from, and then act in accord with that in order to be counted as wheat.
  Just a few thoughts.
  Apollos

  • Reply by menrov on 2014-03-25 08:39:38

    Thank you, apollos0falexandrias, for you thoughts. Much appreciated. If not shown in my message, I do try to remain balanced and supportive, but it is challenging :-)

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-03-25 09:14:51

      Your balance and support is very much shown in your message. I wish you well in your endeavors. It is not at all easy.

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-25 09:52:15

    Apollos,
    I really appreciate your comments . I needed to hear that today . I commented months ago that I was having the same struggle with my husband. It was really rough in the beginning and although we do not agree on everything, we are still united in worship.
    I am so glad that he no longer feels that he has to “save me” from “apostatizing “. I am seeing flashes through his comments and our discussions that he now recognizes that JW’S have diminished the role of Jesus. The other day his comment at the meeting made me do a double take down the aisle. His comment reflected a change of view based on a heated discussion we had ….he looked down the aisle and winked :)
    We are far apart on the nature of Christ ( and it annoys me to no end :) ) However, in the future I am going to try avoid arguments/coversations that has us debating Jehovah vs. Jesus .

  • Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-26 15:09:13

    Apollos
    This is a sincere question.
    Is it possible that there may be many; in other religions, who are going to be deemed worthy by Christ, (under complete authority of our Father)
    to be chosen for....I can't think of a better word........salvation? I know this is a very christendomy way of asking, but it's the only way I can think of posing the question.

Comment by on 2014-03-25 10:19:42

Para 4 god has no interest in service performed out of fear of his power .yet time and time again the emphasis in the publications is armageddon and how close we are and how god is going to use his power to destroy most people on the planet if they dont do exactly as the witnesses say .what emotions do constant bombardment of these points bring to a persons mind .while the bible does discuss these points the great emphasis in our studies should be about gods dominant quality of love .then just as john said love throws fear outside . Come on any on the GB if you ever read this .lets have more articles about gods love his mercy his kindness not just his judgement . Kev c

Comment by on 2014-03-25 21:08:05

Well I wish I could have some sensible discussion with my wife. She is well trained to sense "apostate agenda" and she stop conversation every time I try to introduce idea that differs from our official teaching. I showed her the list of sriptures proving that we should be Christ witnesses rather then Jehova witnesses and she accused me of dishonoring Jehova. Her reasoning? Some hateful apostate compiled list of scriptures to prove Jehovah Witnesses wrong.

Comment by Sargon on 2014-03-25 21:44:34

1. I had to walk out during the #2 talk.
2. I had a discussion with a loved one. During the conversation she mentioned that she believes she needs to follow the lead of the GB. I told her I follow Jesus. She went silent and tried to change the subject. I should have quoted Mark 10:21. Jesus tells us to follow him. She said when she talks to me it doesn't even seem like she's talking to a JW. That's how bad we've removed Jesus. We aren't even allowed to say we follow him. She has doubts but refuses to even read scriptures I ask her to read. It shows me that many are beginning to doubt, but would rather delegate their belief system to the GB in the same way Catholics do to the pope.

Comment by search4truth on 2014-03-25 22:03:54

Well I wish I could have some sensible discussion with my wife. She is well trained to sense " apostate agenda" and she cease conversation every time I try to introduce some idea that differs from our official teaching. I showed her the list of striptures proving that we should be witnesses of Christ rather then Jehova and she accused my of dishonoring Jehova. Her reasoning ? Some hateful apostate compiled this list to prove Jehovah Witnesess wrong.

• Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-03-26 10:27:51

  It's normal for people to be defensive to things they firmly believe. You should try a different approach. Rather then trying to proof your point, make it a point to have weekly biblestudy with her, using just the bible. Or even daily. Tell her you really would enjoy studying some scriptures with her and ask her how she feels about them.
  I can tell you many JW don't know what the real doctrine about things is..If you read key passages with her, she might gradually for her own discover things and start to ask questions. At that point you can help her. If she things you went off the wall and can't be trusted because you have been reading some hateful apostate literature you won't make any headway.

  • Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-26 14:39:57

    Dear InNeedOFGrace,
    I tried that approach with a lady who was determined to "get me back on track". She offered to help me study the weekly watchtower in preparation for the Sunday meetings. I agreed on the condition that I be allowed to answer all questions within the watchtower, using only the scriptures cited from the bible.
    It was so difficult for her to do this for her as she kept reading the paragraph from the magazine, whilst I started flipping through the actual source within the scriptures. I won't go into the details as they may bore you.
    Needless to say, the whole thing fell apart rapidly as I searched out the answers in the bible to the questions posed in the mag. She could not, simply could not, get her head around this way of doing it. She sat with the magazine in her lap as I read every single scripture and tried to obtain the answer to the questions.
    Sometimes the answers were clear, and many times they were not. In fact the cited scriptures were often about something local or of a greater significance than implied in the watchtower mag. Other times the scripture was a preamble to another point. There "seemed" to be nothing dogmatic within the cited texts at times and I asked her why they bothered to put them in if they were not totally related.
    Often there was simply an historical element in these scriptures which would lead to the next narrative. She was a really kind and patient woman and she knew that I was trying to make sense of it all, she knew I meant no harm in attempting this exercise. She also admitted that it was not possible for us to do the watchtower this way as it "..did not follow the format....laid out for us by the WT society..."
    That was the one and only time she ever attempted this way of doing the study. I wasn't trying to be a smart Alec, just trying to stay close to the bible. She was uncomfortable as anything as I tried to discuss the role of Christ Jesus in the NT,for I read his name in the "imperative", insofar as we are meant to follow Christ as commanded by His Father. She could not reconcile what I was saying with the things she had embedded in her mind for so many years.
    She has not been back.

    • Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-26 14:59:44

      by the way InNeedOFGrace,
      I realized after I wrote about this experience of mine, that you were thinking in terms of only studying the bible. However, are we allowed to do that, really do that with one another? Without the assistance of publications to guide us?
      Whenever I reassure a fellow witness that I have not abandoned the bible and read it with great interest. They invariably take note of this fact, but continue on with urging me to read the "abundance of material, lovingly provided by the society....in order to grasp it's meaning better".
      I have read so many of the societies books and kept everyone of them. But never have I read the entire bible. This I point out to whom ever is trying to (in a way) discourage me. I tell them I really need to read this book through, without interruption for once in my life please.
      I am told that I will never understand it, or that I will mis-understand it.
      This is not said in a cruel way to me, but it is still stressed that I am incapable of gaining any insights of worth through my own endeavors.

      • Reply by menrov on 2014-03-26 17:47:45

        In todays meeting,after the brother who did the 3rd part of the TS, it was mentioned that it is only good that ONLY material from the SLAVE. In other words, do not use other material when perparing for your lectures.....imagine you would read better explanations .....

    • Reply by anderestimme on 2014-03-26 17:23:19

      Today's text is a case in point. Our imprisoned brothers "only" had one Bible, and when they got some WTs they committed parts of them to memory.
      I understand that this may be a massaged version of the facts, but the point they're making seems to be that the Bible is not enough, and that the publications are necessary to our spiritual health and perhaps even more important than the Bible itself. Shades of Russell?

  • Reply by search4truth on 2014-03-26 14:54:23

    Thanks for your kind advice. I'm working on different approach and attitude. This site is really helping me to have balanced view on things. I was angry and have felt deceived. It's very frustrating sometimes, but now I know that the love overcomes all thing.

    • Reply by menrov on 2014-03-26 17:44:11

      You are not alone in that struggle Search4Truth :-)

Comment by Katrina on 2014-03-25 23:46:01

"Actually, the statement made in paragraph 22 is wrong on two counts. 1) Jehovah grants all , not considerable, authority to his son, and 2) it is Jesus, not Jehovah, who then grants authority to others."
Very true, it makes me want to cry.
And just to add a thought, the GB believe and teach that Christ has already become king in 1914, then why don't they treat his as their king, instead they contradict on every point.
Its very disturbing that the WT has gone the way of starting to look like an anti Christ.

• Reply by on 2014-03-26 11:49:38

  Hi Katrina,
  The WT's Governing Body has claimed to be anointed. IN Greek Christ is CHRISTOS. This is correctly translated as anointed.
  Translation, unbiased tranlation, is often difficult because there is not a simple one or even two word direct rendering of Greek words.
  There is translations of words and verses that are closer than given in the early versions such as KJV and closer than given in the latest ongoing translations such as NET and WEB.
  For example the prefix anti as in antiChrist should be understood as meaning instead of rather than against.
  anti being translated or understood as opposing Jesus is accurate by reason that the adversary and his minions are against the Anointed Son of God the understanding that the prefix being instead of clarifies that the Governiing Body is not only calling themselves christs but using the word anointed.
  There is a verse that states many will come saying I am christ. The Governing Body of the WT comes saying I am anointed same wword in Greek translated differently into English and more accurate.

  • Reply by Katrina on 2014-03-27 00:08:39

    Thank you Anonymous for you help here, I guess I just threw the saying out without thinking, and you response will help those viewing the site, thank you, as well as myself.

    • Reply by R.H.Esse on 2014-03-28 00:36:35

      Thanks Katrina.
      I got bounced before completing, correcting, and being able to sign up/in
      Here is the rest of the comment
      There is a verse that states many will come saying I am christ. The Governing Body of the WT comes saying I am anointed by saying this they are saying I am christ. Same word in Greek translated differently into English and more accurate.
      The past and current leaders in New York have been calling themselves antiChrists (instead of Christ) all along. They insert themselves between a person and God taking the place of Christ Jesus by saying that only through them can truth be found and a person can inherit life eternal/everlasting life.
      Thanks for taking to heart my comment.

  • Reply by on 2014-03-28 03:46:43

    I hadnt really thought about christos being anointed .so we could say that to be a christian and be anointed are one and the same thing . So if we are not anionted then we cannot rightly claim to be a christian .And if that is so where does that place the so called great crowd of other sheep . Or does it simply mean a follower of christ . Kev

    • Reply by R.H.Esse on 2014-03-28 12:02:54

      Trply to Kev
      Acts 11 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. KJV
      What can be gleaned is that disciples of Jesus' teaching through Paul and Barnabas were called Christians. Is this being anointed or is this being a follower/believer of the Son of God?
      It is interesting that the YLT has an added word.
      26 and having found him, he brought him to Antioch, and it came to pass that they a whole year did assemble together in the assembly, and taught a great multitude, the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christians.
      This is Strong's G5537 and Young attempts to make the meaning clear.

  • Reply by Joel on 2014-03-28 07:57:42

    It is interesting when you put it like that. I didn't link the word anointed to Christ in that way in Mark 13:6. One thing I would like to understand though is why the variation in translation. "I am he" is used in some translations and in others "I am the Messiah" and "I am Christ".
    The rendering in the NET bible for example is "I am he", not I am Christ/anointed? Do you have any sources on this translation?

    • Reply by Joel on 2014-03-28 08:01:14

      And by the way, I know that it doesn't invalidate your point that when saying "I am anointed" it is really the same word "christos", but I am just trying to understand if I can link the phrase rendered in exactly that way to this or similar scriptures, since in some translations the word christos is apparently not there.

    • Reply by R.H.Esse on 2014-03-28 12:54:21

      Hi Joel
      Mark 13.6 is conflicting in various translations. The manuscript I have before does not have either he or Christ in the Greek.
      As has been stated elsewhere it is difficult to drop bias. Most translations have some sort of theological or doctrinal base and this often leads to a pasteurization of translation by committees so as to retain the verse but not to offend any particular doctrinal teaching with which the committee members are associated. There are other reasons that verses are homogenized.
      Christ and he are added to the verse where as Green's Literal Translation capitalizes the words being I AM.
      It is good to contemplate this verse for a while both in the Greek and the English direct.
      What I was referencing can be found Mark 13:21-22 as being a message in and of itself and yet clarifies Mark 13:6. Will these men come saying I am or saying I am christos. I would conclude that Christ was added as a result of the later verses (21-22)and that this was changed in committee to he for some obscure reason. As obscure as it may be, perhaps, it was changed because later students, such as yourself, would question the veracity and changing or adding any word(s)it would invalidate belief?
      The NWT states I am he
      The current version of the KIT states I am in Greek. In many cases the WT shows added words by bracketing them but not here.

Comment by on 2014-03-28 21:01:23

Hey thanks RH Esse your reply is very much appreciated ive got strongs concordance and will look a bit deeper at these words .I remember doing some research a while back on why youngs and nwt imply in the context it was divinely inspired to call the disciples christians . There is apparently a good reason for saying that .It seems we have four words here and they seem to be related Starting at G5548 chrio to aniont G5547 christos is from it .Then we have G5546 christianos which is from christos . Also we have charisma which is based on chrio . I am of the understanding that chrio is the verb christos is an adjectve and christianos is a masculine noun . And yet strong seems to be limiting its use to simply a follower of christ .logic seems to say to me there may be more to it than that .But what do i know im not a greek scholar . Thanks again Kev

• Reply by R.H.Esse on 2014-03-29 15:21:35

  Acts was scribed by Luke the physician. The writing is precise in use of the then current Koine Greek. There has been a blending or redaction of Luke's work from the inception of the penning. Marcion of Sinope was the first to really gain followers and revisionism has continued to this very day. The same type of editing happens so that The simplicity of Christ Jesus words are obfuscated. The early events of the the apostles and the events in early Christianity are deprecated. Through these efforts certain connections are made so what happened appears fantastical, such as indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and in other places the flow or explanation is removed. A word here, a word there is changed or the meaning is changed or altered. Jason David BeDuhn defends Marcion and the bloody slashing of Luke's work.
  Precision of Luke's words in this place appear to state that Christian is the name of Christ followers given by divine act. G5537 also is being stated in Strong's as revealed. That the name of the disciples was revealed as Christian. G5537 is related to G5530. Think of this named and taken into the service of.
  And too it can be said that the Holy Spirit was active among them. Though to say that the name implies these had an indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not stated.
  What is known is that it is by the action of the Holy Spirit that a person's eyes are opened and that a person is called to Him.
  In previous verses, 22-24 it is most definitly stated that Barnabas was full of the Holy Spirit.
  To place oil upon a person (olive oil) for healing and prayer is also stated in another place. This does not imply that the oil of anointment made a person full of the Holy Spirit only that this is done asking for action of the Holy Spirit.

  • Reply by on 2014-03-30 04:18:26

    Thanks for your reply R H Esse point taken Especially the one about the anionting at james 5 . Thanks again for your help . Kev

Comment by on 2014-03-28 21:24:52

Just a few more points as well charisma is used at 1 john 2 27 twice in connection with jesus followers and chrio is used at 2 corinthians 1 v21 .Christianos is used at acts 26 v28 .1peter 4 v 16 and of :course acts 11 v26 and lets not forget our savoir christos jesus just to many times To count but its well over 500 times kev

Comment by Katrina on 2014-03-28 22:01:12

When stating false Christs, basically means false anointed. Matt 24:24

• Reply by R.H.Esse on 2014-03-29 00:35:54

  Katriana
  That is correct. In Matthew 24:24 the Greek is pseudochristoi ψευδόχριστοι Strong's G5580 this is false christs. Christos or the conjugation here christoi is anointed.
  Christos is Strong's G5547
  Pseudomai is Strong's G5571 untrue, deceitful, wicked, false, liar.
  To this day the prefix pseudo can be found in English.
  Most often used in Pseudoscience; something presented as science but is not, pseudointellectual, pseudomeat, pseudoleather, and so forth. In 21st century English these are called junk science, frauds or intellectual frauds, soy or textured vegtable protein, pleather respectively.