Esther: The Undercover Queen

Comment by silvertop on 2015-02-05 13:58:55

BEAUTIFULLY SAID

Comment by on 2015-02-05 13:59:36

Thanks alex . But you have no need to explain yourself not to the likes of me anyway . What you do and the choices you make are your buisness mate . 1 corinthians 4 v3 .As far as i can see thats a major problem with jehovahs witnesses we have been used to an environment where others intefere in other peoples lives .1 timothy 5 v13 1 peter 4 v 15 . Its bad news . People need to look at thier own lives and get that sorted instead of slating others . Kev c

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-02-05 15:54:32

  Hi Kev,
  I agree 1 Thess 4:11 "and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business". Still, many struggle with the idea of leaving or staying. The intent of writing this article wasn't to justify our own choices to stay or leave, but to give a Scriptural point of view which our visitors can meditate upon considering their personal situation. I hope many readers can be encouraged to find that the Bible has advice for their situation.
  Alex Rover

  • Reply by on 2015-02-05 16:36:31

    Thats right alex its amazing how we can make the best of whatever situation we find ourselves in .by trusting in god . I often think of paul in prison probably feeling that it somehow hampered his ministry and yet the letters he wrote while under arrest have reached many millions down through the ages . The trick is to go with the flow of gods spirit and it all works out just fine . Thanks for your articles alex . Well done .kev

Comment by on 2015-02-05 17:03:36

Your words: “Getting “out of her” (organized religion) means that we no longer bow to it, we are already free even if we continue to serve as we are.”
I can’t wiggle around the meaning here. How does one “serve as we are” “get out of her” and partake of the table of demons all at once?
Is the call to “get out of her” for a selected few? Or is it for all of God’s people to hear and obey? His Will is that we Get Out of Her.
2 Cor 6:17 - Therefore “come out from their midst, and be separate,” says the Lord, “and touch no unclean thing, and I will welcome you
Rev 18:4 - Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins and so you will not receive her plagues
Two scriptures telling us the same thing, as if we can’t seem to get it through our heads by hearing just one. What is brotherly love but warning another to join Christ and dissociate from falsehoods? John 10:9; Luke 17:28-33
Ps 26:4,5 - I do not associate with deceitful men,
or consort with those who are dishonest. I hate the mob of evil men,
and do not associate with the wicked.
This is not the time to be kind to ourselves. If Christ was kind to himself where would we all be?
Matt 16:22 - So Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him: “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!”
God’s will is for us to grab hold of the true meaning of peace and security, not false comfort. Ezek 13:10; 1 Thess 5:3
I believe whole-heartedly in these words of yours, brother:
"When this moment arrives, we remain faithful by not bending our knee and not fearing for our well being. At such a time, we must fully trust in our Father. A Father never abandons his children. We must trust in him with all our heart and not lean on our own understanding. We must trust he will make things right."
And it is very true that we can’t judge others for the position they take, but we can warn them to hurry up and leave the city. 1 Pet 4:17; Jer 25:29,30 A true act of brotherly love is to save another’s life.
These times are incredibly heart wrenching, and the Father sees our difficulties in facing the future of our spirituality. Yes, it is as you say, we must trust he will make things right.
love,
peely

• Reply by life2come on 2015-02-05 21:21:05

  This is just a thought, Peely, but perhaps "getting out of her" (organized religion) is similar to being "no part of the world". We are still physically present although not spiritually of it. We are to be a light in the world, but that requires us to be in the presence of those still part of the world. The same can be said for those who choose to remain in the JW organization. Esther was definitely used by Jehovah under unique circumstances.

  • Reply by on 2015-02-06 11:34:07

    Hi life2come,
    It is well known that the book of Esther is about the preservation of God’s people. Their destruction was imminent at the hands of “Haman the wicked”; and Esther recognized this disgusting thing, the man of lawlessness, standing in the midst of God’s people. She was well aware that she could lose her life by announcing destruction on her people. Dan 9:27
    In the set of scriptures Alex refers to in 1 Cor 7, verse 9 says, “keeping the commandments of God is what matters”.
    Jesus said, in answer to what is the greatest commandment in the law –
    “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37-40
    I believe Esther put her love of neighbor above herself.
    Applying Matt 22 is not only a spiritual understand, but physical as well. Yes, we are to be no part of the world which includes organized religion run by man. For JWs to stay within the organization, can one radiate light of Christ within darkness?
    2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
    We also cannot live as children of light and be slaves to men also.
    “You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.” 1 Cor 7:23
    The manifestation of Christ’s presence today is recognizing the “disgusting thing”, again in the midst God’s people. 2 Thess 2:8
    Matt 24:15 - “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
    Do we understand who it is? God’s Temple are the anointed ones, chosen by God, not by man. 1 Pet 2:5, 9
    There are so many offenses within the organization; the oppression of Christ’s law of love (man of “lawlessness”), burdens put upon the sheep, and disfellowshipping those questioning the GB. This is all prophesied. Who have appointed themselves above God’s chosen?
    Ezek 44:8 - And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.
    Heb 8:1,2 - Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
    Who today in the organization are considered “princes” and “prophets” but the elders and GB. They have made “no distinction between the holy and the common” 1 Pet 2:9 And who else is considered a roaring lion in the scriptures?
    25 The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured human lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 Her priests have done violence to my law and have profaned my holy things. They have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they taught the difference between the unclean and the clean, and they have disregarded my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, shedding blood, destroying lives to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when the Lord has not spoken. 29 The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery. They have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the sojourner without justice. Ezek 22
    I know this sounds harsh, and it is incredibly difficult to assimilate. Just as in the days of old, we need to recognizing what God’s Temple comprises, as well as the blessings of the New Covenant. We will then understand who the disgusting thing is and can heed Christ’s warning in Mark 13:14. Once again, God’s people are being cleansed.
    Luke 22:31- “Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN DEMANDED TO HAVE YOU, that he might sift you like wheat (ESV) (I am not trying to be rude with use of caps, just want to point out its importance)
    A similar question was asked of an anointed one:
    love,
    peely

    • Reply by on 2015-02-06 12:02:15

      I wrote way too fast. so sorry for all the mistakes

    • Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-02-06 12:05:37

      hi peely,
      for 2 Cor 6:14 translation matters:
      1) do not 'be' unequally yoked with unbelievers
      2) do not 'become' unequally yoked with unbelievers
      The best translation is #2. The strong word γινομαι 1096 is defined:
      1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen 2a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage 3a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished 4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made
      As you notice, I do not advocate 'becoming' unequally yoked, but 2 Cor 6:14 doesn't counter the spirit of 1 Co 7:17-24.

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-02-06 15:59:49

  It seems to me that, if the wheat were to physically get out from among the weeds, there would be no need for the angels to ultimately separate the two.
  In my case, when I needed help in making important decisions, I prayed for clear guidance and I got it. I have gotten no such clear indication that I should leave, though I've prayed on that too. I believe this is an entirely personal decision which should be based on sincere introspection, study and prayer.

  • Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-06 16:34:48

    anderestimme,
    I agree.
    With respect,
    Laura

  • Reply by on 2015-02-08 18:00:59

    I agree with you anderestimme,
    It takes sincere prayer and an unrelenting spirit. So, we rely on God’s word to help us out.
    James 1:6 - But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
    Eph 4:14 - that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting
    Our faith is being tested more now than perhaps we have ever experienced. We see disfellowshipping of so-called apostates in great numbers. We see our hearts trying to weigh in on what is the clear truth and how to follow it; following it with the threat of cutting ourselves off from many loved ones. John 16:2; Isa 66:5
    We are presently within the sifting, threshing period; a “tribulation” which we know in reality is a sifting of the heart – we choose which desires, or “seeds”, (wheat or weeds) are cultivated. Do we accept the lies (weeds) of others to teach us, allowing our heart to be filled with it? Or do we cultivate our hearts with only truth? Luke 8:15; Luke 21:36 The meaning of the harvest takes spiritual discernment to grasp its presence. Matt 16:1-3
    Mark 4:12 - so that although they look they may look but not see,
    and although they hear they may hear but not understand,
    so they may not repent and be forgiven.”
    James 1:21 - So put away all filth and evil excess and humbly welcome the message implanted within you, which is able to save your souls.
    The tribulation is also a physical sifting period which is a result of the cultivating truth within the heart. The true difficulty is facing the physical separation from something we have routinely done for years.
    1 Pet 4:1 - So, since Christ suffered in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same attitude, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin
    Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
    I see the angels that are doing the harvesting work are not necessarily celestial. The Greek word for “angel” is messenger. Matt 13:39
    John 4:36 - The one who harvests is already receiving his wages and gathering a crop for eternal life, so that the one who sows and the one who harvests may rejoice together.
    Matt 9:37,38 - Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
    Rev 14:15-19
    Rev 14:6 - And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people
    Those that bear the pure truth of Christ are the reapers, chosen ones, the harvesters, shining light of Christ in the form of “fine fruit”. John 13:20; Matt 10:40,41 This is also the gathering of the Body of Christ and those who choose to give God exclusive devotion. It is the invitation to the marriage feast where spiritual truth is in abundance.
    They arrive “outside the camp”:
    Heb 13:13 - We must go out to him, then, outside the camp, bearing the abuse he experienced
    .
    Do we not see the “operation of error” (lies) presently in place within the organization?
    2 Thess 2:9-12 - 9 The arrival of the lawless one will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders, 10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. 11 Consequently God sends on them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. 12 And so all of them who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evil will be condemned.
    It is found within the organization, where God’s people must decide how to cultivate their heart toward Christ.
    .
    We do receive clear guidance when our heart is open to it.
    love,
    peely

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-21 09:08:02

  I must strongly agree with this statement peely. When you are being called out... You will know it. It was unmistakable in my case that the Spirit was leading me out of her. At some point we will be viewed as sharing in her sins if we stay. But we should not judge the choice of others to stay.
  The way I see it these days we are entrusted with the gospel and our commission to preach it to others.
  This Angel's commission is to sound this warning to God's people to leave BTG . We should leave him to his task. This calling is a deeply personal and spiritual experience. In my case, after awakening my husband (which was quite the task) the Spirit moved me strongly to leave. I personally look back and believe that I was dying in the org spiritually. The Lord rescued me.
  My husband is spending all his time know awakening his own family. I know that he will join me in the sun one day. It is apparent to me that God has not yet called him out. His path may be entirely different than mine and yet STILL our family is strongly united in Worship of the Most High.
  The angel does the calling and Jesus renders the Judgement. The WT claims that this is out responsibility to get people of of false religion. In my view.. according to the scriptures it is actually not our role.

Comment by on 2015-02-06 14:23:48

Revelation 18 v4 is interesting as it says get out of her my people that you may not SHARE IN HER SINS . Theres the line its when it gets the point that enough pressure is applied by organised religion that we are forced to partake in her sins . I believe the particular sins here spoken of are contained in chapter 17 namely spiritual fornication (idolatry) and severe persecution of christs true witnesses . . But it could be any sin . The pressure is increasing on the brothers to conform . if they try and force an individual to do something that he knows is wrong a sin then its time to make a stand . Just like the 3 hebrews did in daniels who were also in babylon . Kev

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-02-06 14:32:01

  Well put Kev

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-06 14:58:37

  I think you've drawn the line in the sand, Anonymous. Thank you.

Comment by BN on 2015-02-06 21:11:16

When do we partake in sins? When we accept people being disfellowshipped? When we listen to lies? When we speak lies? When we accept men holding our faith hostage? When we obey men instead of God? Where should we draw the line? Jesus told us not to worship in the temple or on the mountain .. (mountainlike org) ..but in spirit and truth! Could it be a matter of life and death?

• Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-07 08:47:23

  BN, Jesus' answer to the question of how to receive everlasting life was, (Matthew 19:16-21) ". . .Now, look! a certain one came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do in order to get everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “Why, You must not murder, You must not commit adultery, You must not steal, You must not bear false witness, 19 Honor [your] father and [your] mother, and, You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all these; what yet am I lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower. . ."
  Jesus did not say to the man he must leave his Temple worship or leave off being a Jew even though many of the Jewish leaders of that day were not loving but were hypocritical and false brothers. Peter continued to attend Temple as did the other Jewish disciples of Christ even after he died. The work for them was primarily in the Jewish system including the Jewish proselytes among the men of the nations. Cornelius was not a physical Jew but he was a religious Jew having already sought the God of the Jews, Jehovah, in prayer long before Peter came to him. There were many others like him among the nations.
  With respect,
  Laura

  • Reply by BN on 2015-02-07 20:20:14

    But what happend ultimately to the religious system within the Temple and the Temple itself? And why did it happen? What is the greatest sin? Could it be religious fornication? Israel had taken another husband than Jehovah! (2Cor 11:2, 3) I think this IS our example and that it IS a matter of life and death ..IF we put men between us and Christ .. then we have taken another husband .. There are harlots and there are virgins .. It's a battle between truth and lies .. Ultimately we have to choose .. who we listen to ... which huband ... (Mark 8:35) It took me a while to see this, but when I first started my new journey, it was like reading the Scriptures for the first time (again) and I do not want to look back .. (Matt 7:14; John 14:6; Rev 19:10; John 1:4; Matt 5:14; Matt 23:8, 10) There is no organization in the Bible, only Gods Temple the spiritual one that He is building (Acts 7:48, 49; 1Cor 3:9, 16; Rev 21:3, 2), and there is no Governing Body either (Gal 1:15-17; Acts 8:29; 13:4; 16:6, 7, 9, 10; 1:5, 8; 1Cor 14:32; Rom 12:6)
    Agape

    • Reply by Anonymous on 2016-12-24 23:41:38

      Very interesting!
      There will always be a "Samaritan" nation or style of Worship . This goes as far back as Adam.
      I personally feel churches themselves that go beyond the normal "tent" are idolatrous.
      Beautiful temples but idolatrous....

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-21 08:50:59

  Well said.

Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-02-07 07:12:11

Isn't the mere fact that we have reached a point in our spiritual journey that we can ASK these QUESTIONS of OURSELVES an indication of what GOD wants us to do?
The brothers at the Kingdom Hall are incapable of looking in the mirror and therefore do not see that they are covered in excrement, from which they must cleanse themselves.
Pro_30:12 There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes but that has not been washed from its own excrement.
WE see that we stink and are filthy.
Isn't it time to step away from the sty into our Fathers home?

• Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-07 09:04:14

  stonedragon2k, just about all Christians are members of a Christian religion which has some cleaning up to do. Are they all condemned for it or does God judge us as individuals? Is Jesus today judging entire Christian religions? Or are we at this moment standing as individuals even perhaps righteous individuals (not because we ourselves are righteous but because Jehovah has on the basis of Christ's blood forgiven our sins) in Christian religions covered in the stain of sin?
  There are many good people in all Christian religions including Jehovah's Witnesses. I remain because this is where Jehovah wants me to remain.
  With respect,
  Laura

Comment by on 2015-02-07 15:01:42

Hi Alex,
Thank you for you the translation of 2 Cor 6:14. Good to know, yet I still can’t see remaining within the org, knowing real truth, and thinking we’ve got it all under control as a safe way to go. Are we placing our bets on God’s protection in such an element? What does fellowship within that scripture entail? I realize you know what I mean and struggle also with it, no doubt.
1 Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 7:17-24 - But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
I do believe we agree that this refers to the Body of Christ and the individual members placed in their position by God.
1 Pet 2:9,10 - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Heb 5:4 - And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was
1 Cor 12:18,29; 11:29 - But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
John 15:16 - You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
Christ’s appointments within the Body do not include man’s appointments which I get the feeling that you agree with, but I think we have a difference of opinion on just what the Body of Christ entails.1 Pet 2:21,22; Romans 2:29
I also believe most JW’s have the misconception that the “Temple” is the organization itself, which is far from true.
1 Cor 3:16 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
The organization does not rule the Body, only Christ. The “faithful and discreet slave” have seized this position with no legal authority.
Gal 2:4 - And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage)
2 Cor 11:20,3 - For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
If we are in the organization, we put up with the bondage believing this is what God desires of us. I wrestled with this idea for quite a long time; many are in just that same plane of spiritual “Babylon” as we speak. It is apparent to me now that a very large, yet most subtle deception within the organization is idolatry. It has placed itself between man and Christ relating IT to be our path to salvation. We know better, I would hope. The Organization is a living, breathing, beast run strictly on manpower; not through the Holy Spirt of God, but rather a different spirit. Rev 13:8,4,15
1 Cor 10:14 - Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
Why would anyone not want to grab their loved ones and run? It IS a mountain-like organization; one that will not bring us salvation – that, and only that, is found in Zion – the Temple of God.
Rev 6:15,16; Hosea 10:8; Luke 23:30; Zech 4:7,6; Jer 25:29
love in Christ,
peely

Comment by menrov on 2015-02-08 04:13:25

Hi Alex, many thanks for all your efforts to share scriptural topics with us. Not always easy, I can see that.
Regarding this topic. Well, I often read that Jehovah should somehow indicate what we should do. A sympathetic view, but as far as I can see, I am not aware of see any scripture in NT to support such a view.
As Rom. 14:12 and Gal. 6:5 tell us, we are all accountable for our own actions. We have our faith, our mind and our love to discern what is right or wrong. This applies to what we eat, what kind of work we do, if we marry or not etc. Also whether one believes his worship is acceptable. Jesus is our judge, the Head of the Christian congregation. Jesus has shown what is important in relation to eternal life (see some comments above that make this reference as well). If one sincerely believes that he/she meets these 'requirements' while continuing doing his / her current life, that is fine. However, if such investigation shows that current habits / activities / worship actually make meeting these requirements difficult or impossible, I believe that is a sign one should act. Again, the Father or Jesus will not pull anyone to do something. We have the written word, our conscience, a cloud of Christian brothers and our faith to guide us. Jesus promised He'd be with us until the end,
It is therefore not up to anyone to judge a person. We can disagree with an action. For example, it is in my view not correct to judge anyone because that person is said to be a catholic, reformist or a Jehovah's Witness. But we can disagree with certain acts of that person, like when that person steals, lies, kills, or others things that are in contrast to what Jesus has taught. I mean, we can disagree, we can distant ourselves from that person if that person becomes a danger to your own (spiritual) well being but we should not judge. Only Jesus is allowed to judge.
As such, if one believes it is fine to remain a Catholic or a Reformist or a JW, I can disagree and might share my scriptural views on that decision, but I cannot (am not allowed to) judge. Who says that I am any bit better for not remaining a JW?

Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-02-08 04:40:51

Hi Laura,
Yes I think ALL the Christian ORGANISATIONS/denominations are doomed and will fail. They all try to supplant Christ and say 'come with us and be saved'.
The body of Christ is not organisation, it is living and sentient. It is made up of individuals with its head - Jesus Christ. We stand as individuals within that body.
From my observations there are many from various Christian denominations, who recognize the systemic way of worship is not from our Father and have moved away.
For example I never forget seeing a Youtube documentary about two Amish men who came to realisation by reading the Bible for THEMSELVES, that they had to act. They got disfellowshiped and had to fend for themselves after living for years in a closeted community. How hard was that for them? Who drew them out?
I would not condemn anybody for staying as a JW. I cannot judge. Personally I stay in name only. I have not been to a meeting for a long time. To hear the nonsense literally made me physically sick. However I want to stay in a 'good' enough position that I can talk to brothers when the opportunity arises to help them - and trying not to get disfellowishipped will help towards that goal. But I could never fraternise with the organisation as I used to (meetings, FS, etc)

• Reply by BN on 2015-02-08 17:28:47

  This is also my position for the moment, but I am preparing to write to everybody I know and we all know how that will end ... But I know that I won't regret being 'killed' for the Anointed One .. Everybody ha to choose for themselves .. I will continue to pray for borthers and sisters inside the Tower ..

Comment by on 2015-02-08 11:36:45

Of course the main reason if we are honest .that we are having theses discussions about brothers staying in the religion even though they know its wrong seems to me to be because of the hold the religion has on close family members . I believe keeping our family together is of paramount importance . Ok if a family member tries to emotionally blackmail us into rejecting christ then we must obey god rather than men and stand on the side of christ . Make no mistake god wants us to love our family members . Love hopes all things and endures all things and never fails . It was easy for me to leave because they never had that type of hold over me or any member of my imeadiate family . I can barely imagine the torment you brothers are going through week in week out at those meetings having to keep up a fascade . Listening to the sickening twists of scripture . But hey love is patient and long sufferring your not going to help your family much if they cut you off . But the time may come when they see things in a very different light you just have to keep chipping away and use the bible to present the real truth to them without causing offense . Just let gods word do the work and let it mould thier thinking ..Dont tell them what you think it means just ask what they think . I Sincerely hope you patience will pay off . Warm christian love kev c

Comment by Gogetter on 2015-02-09 07:27:55

I appreciate this scripture based topic as it is near and dear to my heart and deals with the situation I find myself in for several years now.
Sometimes it is easy to condemn our brothers who after realizing that much of what we once believed and taught others whole souled the majority of our lives turned out to be false, but have decided to remain in the “organization.”
Those who make that choice may have convinced themselves that this is what Jehovah wants them to do for the time being and this may very well be true, who can truly say or for that matter judge?
I respectfully remind you brothers that the organization has ingeniously “rigged” the game with it's unscriptual disfellowshipping policy, particularly when it comes to suspected apostasy. This is their insurance policy for compliance with the hope of those they know exist in the shadows of the congregations will once again yield to their self appointed authority, or at least warm a seat in the organization and keep quite.
Like many others I could pull the plug, but at what cost and what would be my “end game”?
I would be totally cut of from immediate family and lifelong very close friendships and would never have an opportunity to be there for them when Jehovah removes the “wheels of the organization's chariot.”
Yes I could leave and find another Christ centered group, but as mentioned in previous comments here, all groups are corrupted in some way by the teachings and personal agendas of imperfect men, even on this wonderful site all “fall short of the glory of God” Rom 3:23 and can be guilty of their own “interpretations” of scripture. (the only difference here is we can do so freely without negative consequences)
Many, I dare say thousands within the organization face this situation daily and wrestle with their conscience about what to do to alleviate the silent mental self persecution that has driven some to desperate acts.
I am confidant that Jesus and his father are aware of our situation and gives comfort with Holy Spirit
to help each one persevere another day.
I believe Christ disciples can be found in any man made religious organization and as long as we are in union with him and do our best to be foot step followers of him, it matters not where we are physically as all things will eventually be gathered again in the Christ.
So my formula to survive in the congregation aside from comfort from the scriptures and doing my best to display the fruits of the spirit.
I no longer serve as an elder, or pioneer (although pressured to serve again)
I no longer participate in the TMS (won't be in a position to teach falsehoods)
I attend meetings (not everything is taught is false, and if you have a Beroean attitude you can easily spot what is Org. and what is Scripture )
I prepare careful comments that hopefully will reach those of like mind and maybe start others to think, always with a focus on the true head of the congregation Christ!
(this actually takes more prep. Than just underlining the WT. Paragraphs and the review Meleti supplies is a great time saving resource)
I engage in the ministry, this is the easy part because I focus on being a witness of Jesus and his Kingdom but not to the exclusion of Jehovah, and what brother is going to challenge that?
I do not look for Bible Studies but will return to discuss scriptures and if they want a formal study
then that would be between them and another member of the congregation.
I only report the actual time I spend talking to someone in the ministry, which of course is minimal in comparison to the time in the field.
Although some may call this hypocritical and others say it's just a mental method of copping (cognitive dissonance) with a bad situation and there may be some truth in both statements, all I can say is until Jehovah directs me differently I will stay as Esther an “undercover agent”
Thank you for allowing me to post these comments, not intended to cause a debate it was more cathartic for me!
May you all have true peace in Christ that I seek!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-09 07:37:08

  Thank you for sharing these thoughtful comments. I'm sure they will be a help to so many.

• Reply by on 2015-02-09 12:08:53

  "Like many others I could pull the plug, but at what cost and what would be my “end game”?
  I would be totally cut off from immediate family and lifelong very close friendships and would never have an opportunity to be there for them when Jehovah removes the “wheels of the organization’s chariot.”"
  I agonize over your struggles, brother. Consistent prayer will help you have strength to make a choice you know is right. But I must tell you, the “end game” of leaving the organization is everlasting life through Christ.
  Matt 19:29 - And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
  Luke 12:53 - They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
  Matt 10:37 - “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
  Matt 10:34-36 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
  In the parable of the Wedding Feast, notice again the use of “field” –
  4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
  5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
  Christ knows that fully following him comes with persecution, but the above words indicate the ramifications of not accepting this invitation. Mark 10:38. On the other hand, he offers relief from this mental and spiritual burden that the org puts upon the sheep. Matt 11:28-30 One cannot ever get the clear sense of these scriptures when still under the yoke of man. Whomever we serve and in whatever capacity, we are still that one’s slave.
  Rom 6:15-21 – Now, what shall we do? Shall we go on sinning because we have no Law to condemn us any more, but are living under grace? Never! Just think what it would mean. You belong to the power which you choose to obey, whether you choose sin, whose reward is death, or God, obedience to whom means the reward of righteousness. Thank God that you, who were at one time the servants of sin, honestly responded to the impact of Christ’s teaching when you came under its influence. Then, released from the service of sin, you entered the service of righteousness. (I use an everyday illustration because human nature grasps truth more readily that way.) In the past you voluntarily gave your bodies to the service of vice and wickedness—for the purpose of becoming wicked. So, now, give yourselves to the service of righteousness—for the purpose of becoming really good. For when you were employed by sin you owed no duty to righteousness. Yet what sort of harvest did you reap from those things that today you blush to remember? In the long run those things mean one thing only—death. (Phillips)
  The invitation to the Wedding Feast is now. Yes, we can be confident that Christ and the Father know our situation, thus Christ holds out to us his invitation to life.
  love in Christ,
  peely

Comment by on 2015-02-09 17:09:07

I do feel sorry for you brothers staying in the religion . Because if your going through or have been through the rubbish i had to put up with its an absolute nightmare . It was more like the nazi party around here . It made me ill . The stress and the anxiety were intolerable . I would have had a breakdown if i had of stayed . Im healing now . . I hope you brothers and sisters are going to be ok . Kev

Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-02-11 12:58:52

Hey Kev - you are up North and I'm down South. What do you say about a bit of Skype-time? :-)

Comment by menrov on 2015-02-12 04:18:40

Although each one should decide for himself and no-one is to judge except Jesus, there is a risk to remain within a religious organisation of which one is convinced the teachings are in correct. In Mat. 14 one can read: 14 Leave them! They are blind guides. If someone who is blind leads another who is blind, both will fall into a pit.
These words were spoken in relation to the topic of What defiles a Person.

Comment by on 2015-02-12 12:16:02

menrov,
I don't know where this topic is that you refer to, but it is a sobering scripture to bring to our attention. Thank you.
Wt. publication, lv, pg 88-89:
paragraph 9 "Spiritual cleanness. Put simply, keeping spiritually clean means not mixing true worship with false. When the Israelites left Babylon to return to Jerusalem, they were to heed this inspired exhortation: "Get out of there, touch nothing unclean!....Keep yourselves clean." Isa 52:11"
10 Today, we as true Christians must be careful not to become contaminated by false worship. Caution is essential in this regard, for the influence of false religion is pervasive....We will not allow pressure from others to cause us to compromise the Bible's standards of clean worship"
Rev 8:11; Zeph 3:4; Jer 23:1,2,15,16; Rev 13:15
It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander. Matt 15:11,19
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. Matt 12:34
love,
peely

Comment by Gogetter on 2015-02-13 10:20:41

Greetings Br.Peely
Respectfully, just where would one find any organized group of Christians who are not in some form or another contaminated with false teachings?
Who do you fellowship and worship with if I may inquire? Do you totally agree with everything taught?
I believe each of us has the responsibility to follow the scriptures and especially the perfect example of Jesus to the best of our abilities despite our imperfections no matter with whom or what building we find ourselves in association with.
Agape

• Reply by on 2015-02-14 02:09:35

  Just a final thought on this point about staying in the religion . I have to say that actually i do agree with peely on this for the same scriptural reasons .but at the same time theres other reasons why one may hold off from this action . I think that each individual must evaluate how it is affecting them . While paul did say at 2 corinthians 6 to come out from the unbelievers . It has to be remembered that he probably had in mind those pagan religions which were steeped in idolatry . Also eating at the table of the lord and also the table of demons . Likely refers to partaking of the bread and wine while at the same time indulging in pagan worship by eating food offered to idols . We are talking of a religion here which claims to be christian and although i personally have difficulty with that claim i do think there are many in it who are trying to do thier best to please god however mis guided that may be . Its interesting that jesus used parables such as the wheat and the weeds to descrbe the kingdom of the heavens and said that true christians would not be seperated from the false until the very end the harvest . I do believe the time will come when you brothers will have to leave but its a matter of WHEN . Just like true christians had to get out of jerusalem in the first century when the time was right .. your brother kev c

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-14 09:15:03

    Hi Kev,
    You make some very valid points.
    MV

• Reply by on 2015-02-17 13:14:22

  Dear Friend in Christ,
  I have no one to fellowship with except those whom I meet through this computer that I type on. Believe me, I long for a physical fellowship; and perhaps someday in the near future it will happen, but I am on guard of the age old snag of man dominating man to his injury. I have been invited to a church since leaving the organization, but because of this known fact I won’t entertain it. This doesn’t stop us from sharing and living in the love of Christ:
  14 Do all things without complaining or bickering with each other, 15 so you will be found innocent and blameless; you are God’s children called to live without a single stain on your reputations among this perverted and crooked generation. Shine like stars across the land. 16 Cling to the word of life so that on the day of judgment when the Anointed One returns I may have reason to rejoice, because it will be plain that I didn’t turn from His mission nor did I work in vain. Phil 2:14-16
  As someone has brought out, either here or on the forum, it is not what we go to when leaving the organization, but to whom. John 6:68; 5:24 Christ’s early followers met in homes and if they were true to Christ’s words, they submitted to the Father’s direction only, as to how the Body of Christ is arranged. 1 Cor 12:6-11; 18; 28
  If we have the inclination to follow only Christ and rely on Holy Spirit to direct us, then our answer will be found as to what to do. The wisdom that Proverbs encourages us to seek, is Christ and his wisdom. Prov 2:1-4 That is impossible when submitting to any religious organization. All organized religions have their own organizational arrangements. As with the Watchtower, there is a food chain to be found in many. If you give your loyalty to one of these, are you not robbing God as well as his Son of loyalty due only to them? 2 Cor 11:3; 1 Sam 8:7
  Instead,
  25 Let your eyes look directly in front of you
  and let your gaze look straight before you.
  26 Make the path for your feet level,
  so that all your ways may be established.
  27 Do not turn to the right or to the left;
  turn yourself away from evil. Prov 4:25-27
  21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 23 But a time is coming—and now is here—when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21,23,24
  Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. Heb 8:1,2
  The Hebrew word for Babylon is “confusion”; one of the meanings for “Great” in the Greek scriptures is:
  “used of intensity and its degrees: with great effort, of the affections and emotions of the mind, of natural events powerfully affecting the senses: violent, mighty, strong”
  We can see, then, that we are facing our own spiritual “confusion”. It is a struggle within our mind and our heart; thus we take physical action to get out of this powerful confusion of the mind and spirit, or “Babylon the Great”.
  Yes, we follow the perfect example of Jesus despite our imperfections, as you say, and hold true to the words of Christ. You may want to view this series of videos called The Channel of God which exposes the diversion from the early, simple brotherhood to a religious centralized authority.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8WvGLL8ixc
  Also, here is a link to an article concerning organized religions written by our sister in Christ.
  love,
  peely

  • Reply by on 2015-02-17 14:31:22

    Peely i do understand what your saying and i do sympathise with your stand ..I think it is true that all organised religion seems corrupted . And teach wrong things .and if we are not careful we find ourselves having to follow men and thier rules . I do think though that the JW religion is particularly bad for this and as a result many of us have been hurt . I feel the same way .and i know of others in my area who have said they would never again join another religion after the experience with the JWs . Im so glad for you that at least you can at least have fellowship of some sort on this site . You know though as in any relationship when we have had a bad experience in order to move on we have to let our gaurd down . We need to search for others to associate with and place a measure of trust in them despite thier weaknesses . A christian proves himself by his good works for others and his love for his brothers . This may be difficult if we are isolated . I sincerely hope you dont mind me saying these thing . Your brother kev c

Comment by on 2015-02-18 15:32:54

Brother Kev,
I couldn't agree with you more in many ways and I sense the love and care in your words. In actuality, I have found the most valuable fellowship I have ever experienced through online communication. I do reach out to those in physical proximity, as well as those dear friends I had when in the org. (of course, there is no return communication); and I'm sure you agree that being free from the org allows us to be free among all people in expressing Christian love. That is a liberating feeling that does not come from obligation - of trying to uphold an organizational image, but from true love for fellow man.
I dare not complain for what I have! Christian love extends all boundaries, even the technological tool that we use to speak with others about truth. With that tool, there is no better way to reach large numbers who are sighing and crying over detestable things. Or those who are waking from captivity and cannot judge where to go. Ezek 37:23; Dan 11:32-34
Yes, trusting is love among fellow believers, and we all make mistakes. It is the arrogance of man that I don't trust :) Ezek 21:26; Isa 2:12; Dan 8:23-25
agape,
peely

Comment by OldWt on 2015-06-02 15:12:55

Reblogged this on Old Wt and commented:
An incredibly encouraging article.