We Are All Brothers – Part 2

– posted by meleti
In the first part of the series, we saw that to protect ourselves from the folly of organized religion, we must maintain a climate of Christian freedom by guarding ourselves against the leaven of the Pharisees, which is the corrupting influence of human leadership. Our leader is one, the Christ. We, on the other hand, are all brothers and sisters.
He is also our teacher, meaning that while we can teach, we teach his words and his thoughts, never our own.
This doesn’t mean that we can’t speculate and theorize about the meaning of verses which are difficult to understand, but let us always acknowledge it for what it is, human speculation not Biblical fact. We want to beware of teachers who treat their personal interpretations as the word of God. We have all seen the type. They will promote an idea with great vigor, using any and every logical fallacy to defend it against all attack, never willing to consider another point of view, or acknowledge that perhaps they are wrong. Such ones can be very convincing and their zeal and conviction can be persuasive. That is why we must look beyond their words and see their works. Are the qualities they manifest those that the spirit produces? (Gal. 5:22, 23) We are looking for both spirit and truth in those who would teach us.  The two go hand-in-hand.  So when we have difficulty identifying the truth of an argument, it helps greatly to look for the spirit behind it.
Admittedly, it can be difficult to distinguish truthful teachers from the false ones if we look only at their words. Thus we have to look beyond their words to their works.

“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (Tit 1:16)


“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them...” (Mt 7:15, 16)


Let us never become like the Corinthians to whom Paul wrote:

“In fact, you put up with whoever enslaves you, whoever devours your possessions, whoever grabs what you have, whoever exalts himself over you, and whoever strikes you in the face.” (2Co 11:20)


It is easy to blame the false prophets for all our woes, but we should also look to ourselves. We have been warned by our Lord. If one is warned of the trap and yet ignores the warning and steps right into it, who really is to blame?  False teachers only have the power that we grant them. Indeed, their power comes from our willingness to obey men rather than Christ.
There are early warning signs that we can use to protect ourselves from those who would try to again enslave us to men.

Beware of Those Who Speak of Their Own Originality


I was recently reading a book in which the author made many good Scriptural points. I learned a lot in a short time and was able to verify what he said by using the Scriptures to double-check his reasoning. However, there were things in the book I knew were wrong. He displayed a fondness for numerology and placed great significance in numerical coincidences that were not revealed in God’s word. While admitting that it was speculation in the opening paragraph, the rest of the article left little doubt that he considered his findings to be credible and in all likelihood, factual. The subject was harmless enough, but having been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and having had my life course altered based on the speculative numerology of my religion, I now have an almost instinctive aversion to any attempts at “decoding Bible prophecy” using numbers and other speculative means.
“Why did you put up with it for so long”, you might ask me?
When we find someone we trust whose reasoning seems sound and whose conclusions we are able to confirm using the Scriptures, we naturally feel at ease. We may let down our guard, get lazy, stop checking.  Then reasoning which is not so sound and conclusions which cannot be confirmed in Scripture are introduced, and we swallow them trustingly and willingly.  We have forgotten that what made the Beroeans so noble-minded wasn’t simply that they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if Paul’s teachings were true, but that they did this every day. In other words, they never stopped checking.

“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” (Ac 17:11)


I came to trust those teaching me. I did question new teachings, but the basics that I’d been raised on were part of the bedrock of my faith and as such were never questioned. It was only when they radically changed one of those bedrock teachings—the generation of Matthew 24:34—that I began to question them all. Still, it took years, for such is the power of mental inertia.
I am not alone in this experience. I know that many of you are also on the same path—some behind, and some ahead—but all on the same journey. We have learned the full meaning of the words: “Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.” (Ps 146:3) In matters of salvation, we will no longer put our trust in the son of earthling man. That is the commandment of God, and we ignore it at our eternal peril. That may sound overly dramatic to some, but we know from experience and by faith that it is not.
In John 7:17, 18 we have a valuable tool to help us to avoid being misled.

“If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.” (Joh 7:17, 18)


Eisegesis is the tool used by those who speak of their own originality. C. T. Russell helped many people free themselves from false teaching. He was praised for turning the hose on Hellfire, and he helped many Christians free themselves from the dread of eternal torment which the churches were using to control and fleece their flocks. He worked hard to spread many Bible truths, but he failed to resist the temptation to speak of his own originality. He succumbed to the desire to figure out what was not his to know—the time of the end. (Acts 1:6,7)
wingbookEventually, this led him into pyramidology and Egyptology, all in support of his 1914 calculation.  The Divine plan of the Ages actually displayed the Egyptian god symbol of Winged Horus.
The fascination with the calculation of the ages and the use of pyramids—particularly the Great Pyramid of Giza—endured into the Rutherford years.  The following graphic was taken from the seven volume set named Studies in the Scriptures, showing how prominently pyramidology figured into the Scriptural interpretation which C. T. Russell espoused.
Pyramid chart
Let us not speak ill of the man, for Jesus knows the heart.  He may have been very sincere in his understanding.  The real danger for any who would obey the command to make disciples for Christ is that they could end up making disciples for themselves.  This is possible because "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9 KJV)
In all likelihood, very few start out willfully determined to deceive.  What happens is that their own heart deceives them.  We must first delude ourselves before we can start to delude others. This does not excuse us of sin, but that is something God determines.
There is evidence of a change in the attitude Russell had from the beginning.  He wrote the following just six years prior to his death, four years prior to 1914 when he expected Jesus to manifest himself at the start of the Great Tribulation.

"Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.” (The Watchtower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, 1910, page 4685 par. 4)


When Russell first published Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence in 1879, it started with a run of only 6,000 copies.  His early writings do not indicate that he felt his words should be put on a par with the Holy Bible.  Yet, 31 years later, Russell's attitude had changed.  Now he taught his readers that it was not possible to understand the Bible unless they relied on his published words.  In fact, by what we see above, he felt it was possible to understand the Bible using only his writings.
The Organization that grew out of his work is led by a Governing Body of men who have apparently followed in the footsteps of their founder.

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the 'greatly diversified wisdom of God' can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave." (Watchtower; Oct. 1, 1994; p. 8)


To “think in agreement,” we cannot harbor ideas contrary to...our publications (Circuit Assembly talk outline, CA-tk13-E No. 8  1/12)


In the 31 years counting from the first issue of The Watchtower, its circulation grew from 6,000 to around 30,000 copies.  (See Annual Report, w1910, page 4727)  But technology changes everything.  In four short years, Beroean Pickets readership has grown from a handful (literally) to almost 33,000 last year.  Rather than the 6,000 issues Russell printed, our page views were approaching a quarter of a million in our fourth year.  The figures double when one factors in the readership and view rate of our sister site, Discuss the Truth.[i]
The purpose of this is not to blow our own horn.  Other sites, particularly those openly scornful of the Governing Body and/or Jehovah's Witnesses garner more visitors and hits.  And then there are the millions of hits that JW.ORG gets every month.  So no, we are not boasting and we do recognize the danger of viewing statistical growth as evidence of God's blessing.  The reason for mentioning these numbers is that it should give us pause for sober reflection, because we few who started this site and now propose to expand into other languages and a new non-denominational site for the preaching of the good news, do so fully mindful of the potential for it all to go wrong.  We consider that this site belongs to the community which has been built up around it.  We consider that many of you share our desire to both expand our understanding of Scripture and to make the good news known far and wide.  Therefore, we must all guard against the deceitful human heart.
How can we avoid the hubris that leads a mere human to think his words are on par with God's?
One way is to never stop listening to others.  Years ago, a friend jokingly said that the one thing you'll never see in a Bethel home is a suggestion box.  Not so here.  Your comments are our suggestion box and we listen.
This doesn't mean that every idea is acceptable.  We do not want to go from an ultra-controlling environment that disallows any Scriptural understanding that disagrees with that of a Centralized leadership to one of a free-for-all of ideas and opinions. Both extremes are dangerous.  We look for the path of moderation.  The way to worship in both spirit and truth. (John 4:23, 24)
We can keep to that middle ground by applying the principle quoted above from John 7:18.

Disfellowshipping – Not for Us


Looking back over the past four years, I can see in myself a progression and, I hope, some positive growth. This is not self-praise, for this same growth is a natural consequence of the journey we are all on. Pride hinders this growth, while humility accelerates it. I confess that I was held back for a time by the prideful bias of my JW upbringing.
When we started the site, one of our concerns—again under the influence of a JW mindset—was how to protect ourselves from apostate thinking. I do not mean the distorted view that the Organization has of apostasy, but real apostasy as defined by John in 2 John 9-11. Applying the JW disfellowshipping policy to those verses caused me to wonder how I could protect the forum members from those intent on misleading others with personal ideas and agendas. I didn’t want to be arbitrary nor act as some self-appointed censor. On the other hand, a moderator must moderate, meaning his job is to keep the peace and preserve an ambiance that is conducive to mutual respect and individual freedom.
I did not always handle these duties well initially, but two things happened to help me. First was a better understanding of the Scriptural view of how to keep the congregation clean from corruption. I came to see the many unscriptural elements in the Judicial Process as practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.  I realized that disfellowshipping is a man-made policy controlled by an ecclesiastical leadership.  This is not what the Bible teaches.  It teaches a drawing away or disassociation from the sinner based on personal experience.  In other words, each individual must determine for himself or herself whom he chooses to associate with. It is not something that others enforce or impose.
The second, which went hand-in-hand with the first, was the experience of seeing how a real congregation—even a virtual one like ours—deals with these matters under the umbrella of God’s holy spirit. I came to see that by and large a congregation polices itself. The members act as if with one mind when an intruder comes in. (Mt 7:15) Most of us are not little sheep, but war-weary spiritual soldiers with a lot of experience dealing with wolves, thieves and plunderers.  (John 10:1)  I have seen how the spirit guiding us creates an atmosphere which repels those who would teach of their own originality.  Often these depart without any need for draconian measures.  They sense they are no longer welcome.  Therefore, when we encounter the "ministers of righteousness" Paul spoke of at 2 Corinthians 6:4, we have but to follow the advice of James:

“Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from YOU.” (Jas 4:7)


This isn’t to say that in extreme cases the moderator will not act, for there may be times when there is no other method for preserving the peace of our meeting place.  (If a man were to enter a physical meeting place and shout and scream and act abusively, no one would consider it unfair censorship that the individual be escorted out.)  But I have seen that we rarely have to make the determination.  We only have to wait to perceive the will of the congregation; for that is what we are, a congregation. The word in Greek means those who are called out from the world.  (See Strong's: ekklésia)  Is that not what we are, most literally?  For we comprise a congregation that is truly world spanning and which, with our Father's blessing, will soon embrace multiple language groups.
So let us, at this early stage, abandon any notion of an official disfellowshipping policy implemented by any form of leadership.  Our leader is one, the Christ, while we are all brothers.  We can act in unison as did the Corinthian congregation to rebuke any wrongdoers to avoid contamination, but we will do so in a way that is loving so that none may be lost to the sadness of the world. (2 Cor. 2:5-8)

What If We Misbehave


The leaven of the Pharisees is the contaminating influence of a corrupted leadership.  Many Christian sects began with the best of intentions, but slowly descended into rigid, rule-oriented orthodoxies. It may interest you to know that Hasidic Jews began as an all-embracing branch of Judaism given to copying the loving-kindness of Christianity.  (Hasidic means “loving-kindness”.)  It is now one of the more rigid forms of Judaism.
This seems to be the way of organized religion.  There is nothing wrong with a little order, but Organization means leadership, and it always seems to end up with human leaders supposedly acting in God's name.  Men dominate men to their injury.  (Eccl. 8:9)  We don't want that here.
I can give you all the promises in the world that this will not happen to us, but only God and Christ can make promises that never fail.  Therefore, it will be up to you to keep us in check. This is why the commenting feature will continue.  If the day should ever come when we stop listening and begin to seek our own glory, then you must vote with your feet as many of you have already done with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Let Paul's words to the Romans be our motto: "Let God be found true, though every man be a liar." (Ro 3:4)
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[i] (Visitors are counted based on distinct IP addresses, so the actual figure will be lower because people log in anonymously from different IP addresses.  People will also view a page more than once.)

Archived Comments

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  • Comment by on 2015-07-23 14:11:44

    I applaud your sincere desire to help your brothers and sisters and to follow Christ.
    I'm sure you know that what you are attempting has never been successfully accomplished. This is because never in the past has God's Son been with those attempting to do what you are trying to accomplish.
    I wish God's blessing on your efforts and that Jesus himself may guide your way.
    Deborah

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-23 14:41:21

      Thank you, Deborah.
      Remember, A righteous man’s (or woman's) supplication, when it is at work, has much force. (James 5:16)

      • Reply by on 2015-07-23 15:34:04

        Meleti, you can expect that Satan will throw stumbling blocks your way. One of them is adulation by some who are not yet ready to lean on Christ completely. Another is the temptation to look in the mirror too long and too hard. We are human. Yet another is ridicule from unexpected avenues something which is very hard to cope with.
        Surround yourself with friends who will not fear to disagree with you. Friends who love God and his Son much more than they love you. Friends who love the brotherhood to such an extent that they will sacrifice their own lives for them.
        If Christ is with you, you will find such friends.
        Deborah

        • Reply by on 2015-07-23 20:26:19

          There is also a danger in seeing Satan around every corner, always handy and ready at hand to blame when something doesn't go our way. Have we run into difficulties? Made mistakes? Got discouraged? Faced limitations? All we have to do is blame Satan. WT likes to do this a lot. Another site made a good case of saying that WT teaches its followers to fear Satan more than God. Satan is the ready scapegoat to be blamed for any and all problems. I have yet, however, seen anyone offer a single shred of PROOF that any particular problem (of theirs, at least) actually originated from the Devil and his minions. It seems as though merely making the claim is all anyone needs when they need a good foil for a sermon.
          In the first century, it appeared that demon activity and demon harassment was on the increase for a time, since these events get almost no mention in the OT. Perhaps the Devil and the demons "showed up for the party" so to speak, when Christ arrived, no doubt to distract people from Jesus' message. It does not seem like this was a constant, ongoing issue throughout history, either before or after Christ.
          Christians need to do better than to use Satan or anyone or anything else as an excuse to avoid accountability. While not dismissing Satan's existence or actions, we are responsible for our own actions and our own lives. Blaming Satan at every turn is just a cop out.

  • Comment by Skye on 2015-07-23 14:56:12

    Thank you Meleti.

  • Comment by Chris on 2015-07-23 15:35:05

    I am at the Bible Students Convention in PA. There was just a discourse on how the date for the beginning of the invasion of Jerusalem is 607BC. The destruction of Jerusalem is in 587BC. So 2,520 days from 607BC is 1914. So the date is correct it's just that the understanding of what happened in 607BC is incorrect.

    • Reply by Claudelle on 2015-07-23 18:46:51

      Chris, is this some desperate attempt to justify the 607 date? They must be conscious of the fact that so many people in and out of the organization don't believe it..........not really. If it is what I fear, then it's almost as bad as saying "invisible return of Christ" and such nonsense. It will be open to pure speculation all over again. A very cunning attempt to defeat historians.

      • Reply by on 2015-07-23 18:55:42

        The Bible Students are to be left alone. They are sincere Christians and in no way can they be characterized as "cunning".
        Deborah

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-23 19:33:27

          It may be that Deborah thought it was the Regional Convention of JWs. That's what I thought when I first read it, but then on rereading more carefully I realised it was not a JW convention. Easy mistake to make.

        • Reply by on 2015-07-23 19:55:30

          Meleti, I understood that it was a Bible Student Convention being addressed. I personally know many Bible Students and know that most are sincere. They should not be vilified. They are sincere and loving Christians.
          Deborah

        • Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-24 14:32:42

          I have no doubt that many Bible Students are, indeed, sincere. However, this attempt to "save" 1914 is as delusional as any the JWs have come up with. The entire enterprise of trying to find a secret code that will allow access to 'knowledge of times and seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction' is a God-defying mistake that can result in nothing good.

        • Reply by Claudelle on 2015-07-24 22:29:23

          Deborah, I was not attacking this group of followers. Actually, I thought it was a JW convention. However, the basic idea of supporting a date that is not accurate and sticking stubbornly with it is not productive. I am sorry if I offended you for that was not my intent.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-28 22:49:36

          Thanks. No harm done.

      • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-24 22:46:46

        Well we don't believe anything is wrong with the date. Just what JWs have turned it into. We believe that it is the end of the gentile times. Not the establishment of Gods Kingdom or when his Parousia started. JWs have changed almost every type of bible student doctrine.

        • Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-25 14:28:33

          Hi Chris,
          What is, then, the significance of 1914 according to the Bible Students? Does it serve in any way as an indicator of where we are in the divine timetable? Of how near or far the end is? Also, do the Bible Students believe in an invisible parousia and if so, when did it start?
          I'm not challenging here, just truly curious. The folly I see in all this is the fact that it is the product of human interpretation, and so to assign it any real doctrinal significance is to attribute some kind of inspiration to it. And if it serves some function in determining how close the end is, then it runs afoul of Acts 1 as I pointed out above.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-25 16:22:35

          We see it as the end of the gentile times. We see everything about the Jews in prophesy coming true since that date. Such as the Jews being restored to their land and being made their own nation. The nations are against Israel which we see happening now. All of the prophesies of the Jews are coming true. So exciting to see. The JWs have turned it into an establishment of Gods kingdom which we as Bible Students do not agree with.

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-26 09:37:14

          According to the book of Zechariah, the gentile times have not yet ended.
          Luke 21:24 "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." This is a quotation from Zechariah 12:3 (LXX) "all the nations will gather against Jerusalem and will mock the city and trample it underfoot."

        • Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-26 10:21:34

          I agree Skye. I don't believe the Gentile Times have ended yet. If it hasn't, it sure is coming close to its end. We can see favor rapidly slipping away from the Gentile "church". With the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948, many nations are currently "aligning themselves" as enemies of Israel. Though the nation has not accepted Christ as their Messiah, many individual Jews/Israelis are accepting Christ. According to prophecy, the nation will accept Christ. When this happens, the Gentile times will definitely be ended. Whether it ends BEFORE that happens or WHEN that happens is the question.

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-26 12:16:18

          Luke 21:24; Dan 9:26,27; Rev 11:2,3.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-26 16:52:15

          And you all are free to believe what you want. That's what freedom in Christ means. I however disagree. Jerusalem is no longer being trampled on by the nations and is free and has been re established. Just like it was said at the end of the gentile times would be.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-26 18:43:56

            Would that not mean that the gentile times ended around 1948 or 49?

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-26 16:56:15

          Here is an amazing article done by the Dawn Bible Students on why we believe that the gentile times have ended. :)
          http://www.dawnbible.com/1987/8702-hl.htm

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-26 18:14:23

          eyeontorah, Isaiah 19:16-25 is interesting.
          v 23-25 "In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, 'Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance'."

        • Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-27 10:37:25

          Skye, that is an interesting prophecy.
          It's interesting how Jews are not allowed to worship on the temple mount in Jerusalem. When a Jew makes any expression of Jewish identity, or faith, or pride, while on the Temple Mount. He is immediately swept up by the police, removed from the Temple Mount and placed under arrest. Yet, Non-Jews are allowed to scream allah akbar at the top of their lungs in the faces of peaceful Jews & Jews are forbidden to pray there. It seems even though Israel regained control of Jerusalem 1967, the "trampling of the Gentiles" is still going on.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-27 21:03:40

          And that's your opinion to believe just that. There is the third temple ready to be built and is being discussed in Israel. . Research it. There is no requirement that they must worship only on the Temple Mount. They are free in their own country, the Hebrew language is being revived, they are not subject to any country anymore.they are their own nation which has never been done since it was taken from the, Before this they were taken into captivity in other countries. They are being gathered back to Israel for the first time in years. This could not happen if the gentile times were still in affect.
          Luke 21:24 "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.".
          If you pay close attention to the vests it says they will be taken as prisoners to all nations and Jerusalem will be trampled on until the GT are fulfilled. They are no longer prisoners to other countries and they and Jerusalem belonged to them again.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-27 22:59:55

            I'm not sure what the fuss is about. The times of the gentiles is only found in one verse in the Bible. If Jesus meant the actual city of Jerusalem coming back under Jewish control, then it's hard to see that the gentile times have yet ended. If however, he is using Jerusalem to indicate the site of Jewish government, then an argument can be made that the times ended when Israel achieved nationhood. That still leaves questions unanswered, but so what? Let's overlook that for the moment and go with the "Israel as a nation" fulfillment. Again, I ask, so what? The gentile times have ended. What of it? Do Jesus or any of the Bible writers tie the end of the gentile times to another prophecy? I'm not asking for human interpretation here. That belongs to God. Human interpretation is just a synonym for speculation. I've had enough of my life ruined by accepting speculation as doctrine from God thank you very much. So unless someone can point out from scripture and without engaging in conjecture that the end of the times of the gentiles has some greater prophetic significance, I suggest we move on to more beneficial topics.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-28 12:18:01

          Meleti
          "all scripture is inspire of God". Whether 1 or 10 it's is there for reason. Just a tip. When something is posted online where you encourage people to comment and discuss you can't get angry withy the responses. Is this not what this page is for? I can see if someone was arguing and being demeaning and insulting but you can't ask someone's opinions and get mad at them for it. You posted something online and we were having a friendly discussion.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-28 20:35:47

            You've misread my emotion. I wasn't getting angry nor mad. A little frustrated, yes, but even our Lord expressed frustration at times.
            Did you think that I was suggesting that the 1 scripture wasn't inspired of God? Absolutely not. Can't see how I gave that impression, but if I did, let me assure you that I believe Jesus' words about the trampling of Jerusalem are inspired words. It is the speculation and conclusions that men draw from those words which are not inspired of God.
            I hope I've cleared that up.
            By the way, I wasn't asking for your opinion. I was asking for your proof. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have no problem with someone expressing an opinion. But an opinion is, well, just an opinion. It has no probative value.
            Having come from an environment where human opinions are passed off as doctrine, perhaps I'm overly sensitive to seeing them used in an effort to prove a Scriptural point. Forgive me if I came off a bit strong.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-28 22:50:06

          No harm Meleti

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-29 04:51:45

          Chris, The complete understanding of scripture/bible prophecy is not always contained within one, two or even more scriptures. In order to achieve understanding we have to explore the entire Hebrew Bible relating to each subject; this requires time, humility and patience. The dawn article you have provided does not contain sufficient scriptural evidence to support its claim that the times of the gentiles have ended. May I suggest that a lot more research is required.
          It's true that as JW/exJWs we have learned a considerable amount about the Bible, but we need to sift away the false teachings in order to progress.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-29 20:30:42

          Skye
          What you consider false many other consider truth. Truth is not truth because the majority agree. For example. John 1:1 say Jesus is God but yet 1 Cor 8:6 says that father is only God. Now we have to pull these together. But what makes one scripture more accurate for a belief than another. We believe that the Gentile times have ended because if the evidence we see in Israel. By the way I used to be a JW for years. and I know that many who come out of the Society tend to want to believe the opposite of everything. Some go to believing in hellfire, Trinity and all of that. Some become atheist and some Bible Students. I came out because I read The Divine Plan of the Ages and realized that today's watchtower has completely gone off track and do not teach what the Bible Students do. It was hard to leave because I loved everything about my KH. Elders were friends. People were family. But the main difference is that Bible Students don't have a set doctrine list that must be believed or be shunned. Many I'm my ecclesia don't believe as I do. And that's ok. That's what freedom in Christ is. But if we research and find what the Bible Students believe you will see they are two completely different beliefs systems that don't resemble each other.

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-31 13:25:42

          I understand Chris, and I wish you well. However, if anyone is interested please read Zechariah 14, and I hope this proves helpful.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-31 15:29:55

          Well just remember. That when it was taken from the Jews is when it started. When it was given back to the Jews it like end. Not that anyone wouldn't still come against them.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-31 17:56:35

            But there is no proof of that, Chris, is there? The statement is based on supposition, is it not?

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-31 19:54:52

          The Jews have always been their own nation. Then after their disobedience they were to be subjected to other nations. In Jesus days they were subjected to he Romans. Jerusalem would be dominated by the Nations as we have seen in history "until the gentile times be fulfilled". Now that they have been fulfilled they are now their own nations governing themselves and ruled by themselves. Jerusalem is now in the hands of the Israelites and Jews again. Because the gentile times have expires and they have a right to their own land again. The gentile times isn't about the Gentiles but Jerusalem. The Gentiles are secondary. Jerusalem is bowman control by Israelites for the first time since 586/587 BC.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-31 20:23:46

            First of all we have to assume that Jesus' words refer to the actual, physical city. Let's call that Assumption 1. Or we could assume it represents the nation since Jerusalem as the seat of Government can be used that way. Assumption 2. Or we could assume it represents Jehovah's people, in which case, it now represents the New Jerusalem. Assumption 3. If we go with Assumption 1, we have to assume what trampled on by the nations represents. Does it mean that the nations control Jerusalem. Let's call that Assumption 1A. Right now both the Palestines and Israeli's claim it as their capital. They continue to war over it. The Arabs also maintain the dome of the Rock there. Christians also lay claim to the city. With Muslims, Christians, and Jews all contesting their right to the use of the city, how much control do the Jews have to have before all trampling has ceased. We have to assume a certain level of control for us to determine when the trampling ceases. The Bible doesn't say specifically, so yet another assumption. Let's call it Assumption 1B.
            Let's assume that we have made the right series of assumptions right down the line and that we can say definitively that the trampling ended in 1967 after the Arab-Israeli war. Okay. We can now check one more prophecy off the list as fulfilled. Next!
            I'm not being flippant, but only making the point that even if we are accurately interpreting the fulfillment of Jesus' words, it ends there. He made no other reference to the times of the gentiles, so with only the one verse to work from, it seems we've hit a prophetic dead end.

        • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-31 20:44:30

          Well then we would have to assume that we will never know. I see many exJws or "awake" ones that will just any position that differs from the watchtower. The Jews knew what he was speaking of or they would have been question Jesus about this. The Jews are now returned to their homeland and Jerusalem will never again be taken into the hands of the Gentiles. The have returned because it was Gods due time for them to return. We see every promise in connection with the Jews taking place. We now notice that this is all talking place after 1914. Some inititives were underway with the Balfour in 1917. But just as it is being accomplished. The Jews have miraculously defeated nation that have come against them. Others have been trying to take over their nation with no success. Research the 6-day war. Gid protected them on this one. That is because no gentile nation is able to take possession in Jerusalem again because the gentile times have ended. No one can take it from them. All the nations will come against them but none can take Israel from them because the Gentiles aren't allowed to trod on Jerusalem again. That's because the Gentiles times have ended.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-01 07:36:15

            You ascribe the Jewish victories to miracles? God protected the Jews during the 6-day war?

      • Reply by Chris on 2015-07-31 19:48:43

        Not necessarily

  • Comment by Claudelle on 2015-07-23 16:14:25

    Sorry, long post...
    When I found this site a few years ago, I was desperately afraid and despairing of ever finding anyone with whom I could ask questions about God's word and how to apply it.
    I wondered who this Meleti was and whether he was gong to be ..."just another controversial and embittered person...". I wrote to him many times and every single email was responded to. Even my negative emails were answered. One time I attacked him in an unfair way. Then I apologised and was promptly forgiven. Just like that! In time I found the confidence to make comments on this site. I saw the development of ideas and dissenting opinions. And I also noticed very very quickly, that if someone entered this online congregation to cause harm and force their views.........they were gently pushed away, or sometimes they left of their own accord due to lack of interest. Sometimes people just want to argue or intellectualize everything.
    I started to read more and more from my distant spot here in Australia. And I had different bibles to search without feeling like an opposer. My study conductors and those I met in the congregation here were not so pleased with my enthusiasm and my desire for "evidence". I was becoming "unteachable", not that they said it out right, but obviously I had heard this during one of my studies and it stuck in my mind. They were warning me about asking too many questions and wanting substantiation.
    I tried so hard to please and be humble that at some point I felt I was going to bend to the will of "men", but I didn't, couldn't. I saw a lot of nasty behaviour toward people who were "marked somehow". I never knew about this practise and found it to be cruel. I could see the effect it had upon their confidence and joy. These disapproved ones would look upset, never comment and leave immediately after the meetings. When I would ask about it. I was told that it would be best not to talk to them as they were weak in the truth.
    Although raised in the JW religion, I had never been baptised for I could never fulfill the requirements. When I found this site, I had been due to be baptised at the next assembly in October. I told the elders that I thought their treatment of people gave me no sense the compassion that we learn of in the bible. I asked them why they wanted me to "acknowledge a legal aspect of my baptism as meaning I was with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses". I asked where Christ was in all of this. They don't like to acknowledge Christ too much for it means giving away some sort of authority that they have laid claim to. That is all that I can think at this stage. So I moved away and said no to the whole thing. I thought I was a dead person inside and out, but I kept praying and reading. I feel a lot better these days and to all of us.
    I sincerely hope we can find kindness and genuine truth in our attempts to create a sound foundation in ALL of our learning and sharing of Gods word. I deeply desire that we also respect the Christ just as our Father Yahweh or if you prefer.... Jehovah, has decreed. I hope for all of us here that we can regain lost faith and repair many hurts and develop a sound foundation for our shared beliefs. I have faith that if we all remain as honest, sincere and transparent as is possible in our less then perfect thinking.... We will find a good balance of seriousness and it's equally important counterpart....humour. To aid us back to good spiritual, physical and emotional health.
    Thanks to all who are here

    • Reply by Dorcas on 2015-07-23 18:30:41

      Thank you, Meleti. Beautiful expressions, Claudelle. It's my feeling that our God is drawing us together, out of a controlling and abusive organization that doesn't really care about its members. I'm glad you were able to see the reality before you were entangled by it. Once you're in, it's a different story entirely.
      I agree with you that Meleti has never been too busy to answer email or encourage and sympathize when I need it. I believe it's because of the holy spirit that this is happening. Meleti and the others who are behind this site are men favorable to God and he is using them for the upbuilding and refining that we are not getting elsewhere.
      No man made entity will be perfect and I don't expect this to be. With so many checks and balances in place, that is humble, honest Christians who are concerned about each other and can disagree with being disagreeable, this can only be a place where the brow-beaten sheep can be nourished. Perfectly fed? Perhaps not but definitely nourished.
      Dorcas

      • Reply by Claudelle on 2015-07-23 18:40:35

        Pleased to meet you Dorcas. Look forward to reading about your' thoughts.

    • Reply by miken on 2015-07-24 06:43:09

      "I hope for all of us here that we can regain lost faith and repair many hurts and develop a sound foundation for our shared beliefs"
      Claudelle.Only by “coming” to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39, 40; 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). We are then in a position to come to “know” both the Father and Jesus Christ personally and intimately (John 17:3). and also in a position to “eat the flesh and drink the blood” of Christ (John 6:53-58; 1Cor 11:23-26). Jesus becomes our mediator (1 Tim 2:5) and we become beneficiaries of the “new covenant”. and become sons and children of the Father not just his friend (Rom 8:12-17).
      Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6). However we cannot “come” to Christ unless drawn to him by the Father. The Father draws us to him (John 6:44, 6; 1 Cor 1:9) and gives us to him ((John 6:37).
      I sincerely hope if you have not already done so you "come" to our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • Comment by arover2014 on 2015-07-24 01:15:59

    Hi Meleti,
    I find that any teacher is seldom right about everything. I have been wrong about many things, but that does not mean I'm wrong all the time either. So with exception of Christ, teachers and truth are a mixed bag.
    It would be unwise to reject a valid argument simply because of where it came from. Truth is truth, no matter it's source. About Pharisees, Jesus said .. do as they say, not as they do. Yet on the other side of the spectrum there can be 'superfine apostles', who have the appearance of a beautiful Spirit, yet teach misleading teachings.
    Now I do agree that we ought to be extra alert when the teacher's spirit does not align with that of Christ. We would not want to be a disciple of such a teacher, for we can be assured he will lead us (overall) further from truth than closer. We do not want to be imitators of such people, nor would we imagine they are good association.
    So we have to test BOTH the Spirit AND the Teaching. If the Spirit is fine but the teaching tested as false, stay firm in the truth and imitate the Spirit. If the Spirit is bad but the teaching is tested as truth, pray for the teacher's spirit and remain firm in the real truth.
    Ideally we can associate with others who have a Christian Meekness about them, and don't have an attitude that they are right about everything. We have to keep in mind that there will always be differences of opinions. Some may be very strongly held beliefs.
    Degrees of Importance:
    - absolute truths (dogma) impacting our salvation [Jesus died for my sins]
    - absolute truths (dogma) not impacting salvation
    - beliefs (doctrine)
    - opinions [The Anointed will come from Heaven and live on earth with mankind]
    - speculation [The Great Tribulation will start in 2015]
    Doctrinal matters for example often require a construct or framework of belief. But it's not always the only way to look at things, nor are things set in stone. For example, the prophecies relating to the natural Israel. Depending on how your framework interprets these passages, you can construct entirely different understandings.
    In conclusion, the main point that I try to make is that truth is not exclusive to anyone. All the more reason we have to maintain a humble attitude. The Watchtower Organization is anything but humble. They fail the test. They are right about many things, but what does it serve them if they are wrong about some important dogma that relates to salvation?

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-24 07:33:12

      Well said, Alex! Thanks!

  • Comment by arover2014 on 2015-07-24 01:43:20

    I wholeheartedly agree on the NO DISFELLOWSHIPPING.
    The problem with disfellowshipping is that the Elders do it in secret. If you are going to tell me I can't talk to someone, you got to tell me why, and if it's a disagreement rather than a sin, that person has a right to defend himself. And so it should not be mandated to the group, but each individual has the responsibility to GUARD themselves and to choose good association.
    The cure to keep the congregation clean is found in scripture:
    1) Rebuke in private
    2) If that doesn't work, Rebuke with a Witness
    3) If that doesn't work, Rebuke for the Congregation
    Example on how we try to moderate on DDT:
    1. I often message people in private on discussthetruth.com if i find a real issue with a post. If my message is well received, problem solved.
    2) If my message is not well received, I discuss it with the other moderators. I share the private conversations and the offending messages.
    3) If we agree there is need for adjustment, I would publicly write something toward the person in the public thread. I will not censor the person though. If they still disagree with me, they can make their defense in public.
    Sometimes others join in and back me up. This tells the person that it's time to back down on a point. Sometimes others back up the other person. That tells me that I may need adjustment myself.
    And being adjusted hurts .. we got to get used to it. Jehovah adjusts us all the time too, we should embrace adjustments. That's why the kingdom of God is for the meek only.

  • Comment by humiliore on 2015-07-24 16:44:45

    Never have I elsewhere read such sincere, logical articles that expose the mechanisms of an organization clinging to dead teachings. Never have I felt the freedom to ask questions and challenge points. There's something special here, no doubt in my mind.
    Glory to God!

  • Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-07-25 01:06:24

    Thank you for another insight,I have often pondered on where it all went wrong and after this article it seems it began with pastor Russell and has continued ever since.
    It does seem an impossible task to avoid the same pitfalls of "the leaven of the Pharisees" no matter how good the intent is.
    This has been the one thing that has prevented me from abandoning the JW as I haven't really found anyone else who hasent fallen into the same pitfall.
    A side point,I can't really find a definition of the leaven of the Pharisees in WT publications, maybe because if it was clearly defined many would quit the org.

  • Comment by Skye on 2015-07-25 04:39:36

    When you leave WT you see more and more how the brothers and sisters have been controlled/brainwashed. And so when they do leave, some can become very depressed for a while, and when people are depressed they can say things which may seem unreasonable. So this is perhaps an area where we can show patience and help these ones to get back on their feet again. The key is listening to Jesus Christ and what he came to the earth to preach, the Good News of the Kingdom of God. It is through the Kingdom that everything wrong with the world is going to be made right.

    • Reply by miken on 2015-07-25 07:33:30

      The key is listening to Jesus Christ and then believing him and "coming to Him" to receive eternal life. .The Greek word translated "come" is Erchomai and Thayer in his Greek/English lexicon comments with reference to its use in John 5:40; 6:35,37,44,45,65 "to commit oneself to the instruction of Jesus and enter into fellowship with him Only by “coming” to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39,40 ), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). It is through Jesus Christ as the King of God's Kingdom (Col1:13) that the world is going to be made right. Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18), he will judge and resurrect back to life (John 5:27, 28), the Kingdom of itself can do nothing. Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father (1Cor 15:24) after reigning for a thousand years, (Rev 20:6). We should not preach the Kingdom separately from the King, Jesus Christ, (Acts 8:12; 28:23, 31).

      • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-25 08:18:22

        Miken, It's really not that complicated. Let's preach the real good news and stop looking for meanings that are just simply not there.

        • Reply by miken on 2015-07-25 11:15:29

          "Let’s preach the real good news".
          Yes I agree Acts 1:8 and 1 Cor 15:1-4, 12. We cannot be saved by the Kingdom only by the King of the Kingdom, Acts 4:12, it's really not that complicated.

        • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-25 12:41:34

          Hi Miken, Sorry if I came across as a bit abrupt in my reply to your comment. After preaching the Good News, according to WT for over 30 years, my determination now is to preach the Good News according to Jesus Christ, and I'm sure that is the same for you.
          If I could just make a point with regard to 1 Cor 15:3 - Paul said that Jesus' death and resurrection were "among the things of first importance." And that, of course, is true, but that is not the whole Gospel. Jesus preached the saving Gospel long before he mentioned his death and resurrection.
          The Good News of the Kingdom as preached by Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul is one and the same saving Gospel.

  • Comment by father jack on 2015-07-25 09:46:13

    Meleti yet again I tend to agree whole heartedly with what you've said here . I think the difference is that we are genuine people with no hidden agendas who give an honest evaluation of what we see and read in the scriptures Also I think we and others here are not afraid to listen to others point of view and change if we realise we have been wrong . Proverbs 1 verse 5 and proverbs 13 verse 10 says with those consulting together there is wisdom . The trouble is with people in power history shows time and time again they become wise in their own eyes proverbs 3 verse 7 . And they fail to listen to others and pride then leads to a crash . The captain of the Watchtower juggernaut has become the same and those who are on it are going down with it . I think . Cheers mate keep up the good work and 2 peter 1 verses 5 to 8 shows us how . Kevin

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-25 11:13:14

      Thank FJ.
      I couldn't agree more.

      • Reply by father jack on 2015-07-26 16:16:54

        Meleti i read many of your blogs before i actually commented a few years ago and what stuck me was you seemed to have arrived at many of the same conclusions i had already reached with my own in dependant bible research . The reason, i think was that we were letting the bible speak for itself . Kevin

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-26 18:41:40

          That's the key, FJ. It proves that the idea we can only understand Scripture through the filter of the Governing Body is bogus.

  • Comment by Mike West on 2015-07-25 13:00:40

    Thanks Meleti for another great commentary, as well as the other brothers and sisters comments. I have struggled for several years since ceasing my association with the JW org to find a way to obey the exhortation in Heb. 10:24,25 to 'incite to love and fine works' and to not 'forsake our meeting together'. This scripture is used ad nauseam by the WT- indeed in my 45 years of active association as a JW, it has to rank near the top as the most repeated scripture. As JW's, we were taught that leaving the org was tantamount to leaving Jehovah and Jesus. Many sincere people continue to associate with the JW's, knowing that some of their teachings presented as fact are not correct, that their leadership is very controlling and harsh on any dissenters, but fear leaving because of this scripture. Many do leave the WT and suffer depression for this decision. It is my hope that the brothers taking the lead with this website/blog will continue to help the numerous sincere people like myself to understand that they are now indeed part of a congregation, albeit not physically. Perhaps in the future, many of us inactive JW's who fear disfellowshipping for disagreeing with the WT leadership will also be able to actually physically gather together in loose knit Bible study groups- as 1st century Christians did- with other like-minded friends who see the major problems in the JW org. It would be much easier to make a public stand for our beliefs- and not fear being disfellowshipped by the controlling WT- if we were able to physically have dozens or perhaps hundreds of other former JW's in our communities make the same public stand with us. The spirit of everyone involved with the Beroean Pickets thus far is one of great humility and a genuine desire to encourage one another with Bible truths. I pray for all of you friends and will lend my support where needed as time goes by.

  • Comment by yobec on 2015-07-25 13:48:08

    Meleti wrote: " I realized that disfellowshipping is a man-made policy controlled by an ecclesiastical leadership. This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches a drawing away or disassociation from the sinner based on personal experience. In other words, EACH INDIVIDUAL must determine for himself or herself whom he chooses to associate with. It is not something that others enforce or impose." (Bold mine).
    I appreciate this comment. I have long believed this but couldn't put it in words.
    As for the scripture that warns us about " Not putting our trust in ... the son of man" , thee is also the one found I believe in proverbs that say's " Cursed is the one who puts his trust in man".
    Perhaps the pandemic depression that is found amongst J/W's is the consequences of such trust.I still however,feel empathy for those ones.

    • Reply by on 2015-07-25 15:36:08

      Could you enlarge on the topic of "pandemic depression that is found amongst J/W’s" ?
      This is the first I have heard it described in so many words. Can you give any examples, or have any person experiences of people fitting that description that you could relate? How bad is this pandemic, really?

      • Reply by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-26 00:00:21

        It is a I am one of many JWs who are very depressed. My depression started recently when I found out that the JW organization is not Jehovah's organization. This hit me like a ton of bricks!!! This realization, and all the failed prophecies and doctrinal errors and the flip flopping that they craftily describe as new light. I became very disillusioned by finding all of this out. It's also very hard watching my husband pioneer and gives his all to an organization that is built on lies and manipulation. I tried discreetly to reason with him, but he's still blinded by the Watchtower. I'm living a double life at the moment by attending the meetings with my husband for fear of being disfellowshipped. I am fearful of not only losing all my friends but also my husband whom I love dearly. There are many JWs who have committed suicide. There are many who are depressed. It is a pandemic!!!! I am now see a psychiatrist and a therapist to help me sort through the disappointment and the hurt I feel. The sleepless nights, the agony, the fear .....and the gamut of emotions your feel when you find out that you have been misled by the very ones you trusted with your life!!!

        • Reply by menrov on 2015-07-26 04:58:21

          Hi, I truly feel sorry for your situation. It is so recognizable. In my situation, it is a bit the other way around. My wife still attends and is still very "IN". Fortunately I did not get depressed although I felt the symptoms, which made me decide to quit attending meetings etc. At first it puts a burden on the relationship but eventually it makes things clear for both, which helps. My wife prefers this even over me attending the meetings with an angry face, being critical all the time etc. And she prefer me to be inactive, over being disassociated / disfellowshipped. Bit strange as unconsciously the admits that the DA/DF rule is very harsh...
          Take care !!

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-26 07:56:01

          I feel for you, Dawn Ann. It is hard living in what amounts to a divided household. Would you have ever imagined that in a JW household these words would apply to you?
          “...a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and yet he is agreeable to dwelling with her, let her not leave her husband. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to [his] wife, ...” (1Co 7:13, 14 NWT)
          Or these words:
          "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (John 16:33 NIV)

        • Reply by father jack on 2015-07-26 16:04:00

          Keep your chin up dawn ann and remember love is the most important thing it's what we are on the inside that really matters not so much doctrine see Peters first letter for encouragement F J

      • Reply by yobec on 2015-07-26 12:30:28

        Hi Anonymous. Before I continue, I would like to say that I really enjoy some of your posts.
        As for the "pandemic depression" I mentioned, perhaps the use of the word "pandemic" is overblown, I don't know for sure but let me just say this; In the last congregation I was in, which is some 12 years ago, there we're at least 1 in 4 sisters in a congregation of about 140 publishers, that were on medication for depression, including the P.O's wife.
        In previous other congregations that I was in, I also noticed some who were seeing psychiatrist's and others on medication for anxiety disorders. in that congregation, the P.O's sons eventually rebelled due to their father having control issues. For instance, I was told that one day because their shoes were not together neatly in the closet, he went into a rage.
        I also personally know of quite a few who have taken their own lives. One of them put his head in the gas oven, another drowned himself, another shot himself, another was found in his car garage with the engine on. These ones were successful but then there are the others who contemplated it seriously and thankfully did not proceed.
        One of them, a close friend of mine admitted getting out of his car and looking down a steep cliff to ensure that it would do. Another, a family member who downed a bottle of pills but was found in time to have his stomach pumped, another who also took pills but evidently not enough and awoke the next day disappointed. Another, while in a disfellowshipped state called in the elders because she was seriously thinking of ending it all. One of the elders arrogantly told her " What are we suppose to do,re-instate you because you have suicidal thoughts? "Even myself, a few years ago, after dealing with years of restrictions in the congregation, I took it that perhaps I had sinned against the holy spirit and that God had abandoned me. I eventually came to believe that if I took my life it would be a good thing for my family since I was perhaps holding them back spiritually.
        These are my own experiences but you might want to Google Dr. Jerry Bergman and include J/W's Depression. He is a former witness who have treated many witnesses and wrote a book with the high statistics of depression compared to the general population.

        • Reply by Dorcas on 2015-07-26 13:54:17

          "we’re at least 1 in 4 sisters in a congregation of about 140 publishers, that were on medication for depression, including the P.O’s wife."
          Please, I don't mean to doubt you for a minute. But I'm simply wondering how you know these statistics? I'm sure there must be some in my congregation who are on antidepressant medications but they certainly don't go around advertising it. In fact, I don't know any. Simply curious and no offense meant.
          Dorcas

        • Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-26 14:38:33

          I can't give you any hard statistics, but I know of many JWs - brothers and sisters - who are on anti-depressants and I also know, off the top of my head, of five people who either committed or attempted suicide. I don't know how that compares to the general public but it certainly raises the legitimate question of why "God's Organization" is so full of people who have serious mental health issues.

        • Reply by Billy on 2015-07-26 18:03:10

          I also know of a number of brothers and sisters from the congregation I was attending to be suffering from depression and on medication. They told me personally In fact they have pressured me to go on medication of which I refuse to do. The reason I refuse is because I suffer from cognitive dissonance from attending their meetings and suffer from loneliness because of their lack of love and support. I suffer from guilt because of their judgmental ness I would feel guilty because I wasn't putting in enough time or sacrificing enough to the point that I gave up all my hobbies and non witness friends and family to a life of emptiness and still that wasn't enough for them
          I knew a sister quite well who took her own life she battled with depression for years she was very loyal to the organization I've been told about ones attempting suicide and heard of others in my circuit who have taken their lives. I don't attend meetings because it depresses me to do so I've broken down at meetings a number of times and and have gotten very little support
          I'm feeling so much better and happier now. I don't buy into their teaching That leaving them is leaving God
          Sister billy

  • Comment by eyeontorah on 2015-07-25 14:30:15

    I just heard a quote from a guy named Jum Staley. He said "True unity is coming together in your disagreements through your common bond of love."
    Love for God and love for neighbor brings unity. We may not always agree on everything. But we do agree that Jesus is the one who died for our sins. In that truth we are united. In love we grow from that foundation.

  • Comment by Skye on 2015-07-25 15:08:10

    I think that when we read comments, and people quote a website, we should ask ourselves, did the information come from the Bible or the website. There are, of course, websites which are genuine and can assist us greatly in our research, but this is not always the case. Once leaving the WT we must continue to heed the Bible's warnings about false prophets and teachers.
    As Christians the scriptures should be our guide. We have one leader, Jesus Christ.

    • Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-25 16:47:13

      Hi Skye,
      If you're referring to my comment, i definitely don't currently agree with everything that is brought out from other teachers/searchers. But I did agree with that particular quote. We should be United in the love of Christ. However, unity never comes before truth. We should be willing to be divided by truth before we are united in error. Jesus came to bring a sword, not peace. That sword was the truth - the Word of God.
      Yet, some scriptural matters aren't black and white and, for now, are open for discussion and even personal conviction. Disagreements on these gray matters should not lead us to disunity, but in love, we should accept that we don't agree and carry on in love as we grow in understanding of that particular issue.

      • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-25 17:58:32

        Hi eyeontorah,
        No, I was not referring to your comment - sorry for misunderstanding! In fact I thought the quote you mentioned was very interesting and thoughtful. I have noticed one or two websites that have been mentioned from time to time and which I have looked up and thought them to be a bit dubious; I was just offering a word of caution which I felt was appropriate. My comment was not directed to anyone in particular, it was a general comment.

        • Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-26 10:11:18

          OK lol sorry

  • Comment by Buster on 2015-07-26 00:24:05

    Great article and write up. I have all but two of Russell's studies of the scriptures, sure they costed a lot, but was it worth owning a original physical copy of it. I thought for a second you were gonna go with the Finish Mystery , which i think it is the best book ever released by the organization.
    I love when the organization uses Romans 12:3 , and tries to tell us all ( the rank and file) to not think highly of ourselves, but then they do the total opposite. Especially the daily text reading for July 26, 2014 if this is not being prideful, I don't know what is.
    Anointed Christians knew that 1914 would mark a turning point regarding divine rulership. As soon as they discerned the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, they boldly declared to others that God’s rule had begun. Today, with so much evidence that God’s Kingdom is already established in heaven, why do the majority of people not accept what this means? Why are they not able to connect the dots, so to speak, between the state of the world and specific Bible prophecies that God’s people have long been publicizing? Could it be that most people are focusing attention on just what they can see with their eyes? (2 Cor. 5:7) Does their preoccupation with human affairs blind them to what God is doing? (Matt. 24:37-39) Are some of them distracted by the noise of satanic propaganda? (2 Cor. 4:4) It takes faith and spiritual perception to see what is happening in the spirit realm. How glad we can be that we are not blind to what is really going on! w14 1/15 5:6, 7
    Oh yeah real humble :)

    • Reply by Buster on 2015-07-26 00:33:48

      And when I say finished mystery is the best book, cause it makes absolutely 150 percent no sense, and. It is. Pure Gold

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-26 07:47:42

      I never read the daily text. My parents never got into that habit and so even though I grew up a Witness, it was never part of my daily routine. I tried on my own to get into the routine, but never could. I found the text to be boring and often meaningless. They'd cite a Scripture which the text had nothing much to do with.
      I'm sure my JW brothers and sisters will read today's text and think that we knew that Christ's invisible presence began in that year. That is clearly what is being implied and the Watchtower from which this is taken will back me up on that. I remember the review we did on it. How many Jehovah's Witnesses will realize that the "turning point" we expected back then was the start of the great tribulation culminating in Armageddon. We believed the invisible presence began in 1874 and that belief didn't change until about 16 years after 1914 came and went. It would be nice if they said that every time the subject came up. That would indicate that they are not trying to deceive by omission.

      • Reply by Buster on 2015-07-26 11:49:10

        I love when they don't put the whole verse of the Bible and alot of times have ........ Which you know you need to get the bible to find out if they used the verse out of context, and I love or laugh more like when they always give you a watchtower reference so you can go check it out. But yeah today text I said out loud I can't believe people are gonna buy this stuff, oh well.

        • Reply by Buster on 2015-07-26 11:56:21

          And brother don't forget about the years 1799, 1874, 1878, even I believe 1881 was a important date, 1914, 1918, and the great year of 1925. Oh boy we love our years :)

        • Reply by on 2015-07-28 11:47:28

          I agree! " Friends let's turn to (insert scripture here) and read the 'A,B,C,D' part only"....

      • Reply by Billy on 2015-07-26 18:12:05

        I agree if they would just be honest and transparent I would have way more respect for them. But they are tricky, confusing and secretive

  • Comment by Alien resident on 2015-07-26 02:32:18

    Nice write up Meleti, i understand the dilemma one faces being an active JW and not totally convinced on some of the teachings. Trying to discuss that with your own friends in the faith, is pretty difficult. So whether it was Jehovah drawing me to this site, as I don't look at anything other than JW Org, wt etc, I'm not sure, however it's a place you can go to, were the bible is discussed in an unbiased manner, without insulting the intelligence of the reader. You can learn, and express your thoughts on the bible, whether they are right or wrong , even have virtual fellowship. So I hope it continues , and those who are moderating are doing good in keeping the peace.

  • Comment by Trynhard on 2015-07-26 08:30:52

    Just wanted to say thanks, for your honesty, your determination to speak the truth. Just by using our father's words, not an organization's words.
    Amazing the common sense you use, that seems to be lacking in scriptural discussions. Your truly an inspiration to many, and hopefully many more

  • Comment by Billy on 2015-07-26 18:25:55

    I m constantly amazed with your articles as I can relate so well I to them I had to do a whole revision of the organization after learning about he "generation" doctrine changing I had been out of the organization for 15 years and hadn't even realized the change had been made for quite a while after I was back it absolutely floored me it was one of those shocking moments one gets when You can still remember exactly where You were and who You were speaking to - like the day you heard about the Kennedy assination or the twin towers exploding it's been a long haul of religous trauma but it's made me much more aware of falsehood deceit and arrogance
    I'm in Australia and would love to meet up with anyone of you on this site for fellowship
    Sister billy

    • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-29 14:18:52

      And I live in Edinburgh, Scotland if anyone would like to meet up.

  • Comment by Marvin Shilmer on 2015-07-27 16:40:32

    Very well expressed, and I could not agree more. Thanks!

  • Comment by on 2015-07-27 19:37:07

    This is a comment to Sister Billy. You mentioned something about being pressured to take anti-depressant drugs and refusing. You should NEVER take medication because some (non-doctor) person is pressuring you. In fact, even if it's the doctor saying it, IN MY OPINION you should get a second or even third opinion on this matter. If you want a real eye-opener, go on web sites where people who take Prozac, Paxil, etc. and all the other antidepressants talk about their experiences. I kid you not, the number one topic of these people boils down to, "for the love of God, can somebody, ANYBODY, help me stop taking this medicine!" It's downright scary. You have to know that antidepressants alter your brain chemistry. I will not say don't take it. You may be desperate and really need it. But taking these drugs is like playing with dynamite. Better be sure which end you're lighting, so to speak.
    Again, I am not trying to scare you or tell you what to do, EXCEPT please, please PLEASE do your research and due diligence before you take these very powerful medicines. It's your life at stake. These are extremely serious drugs to be taking. Please be sure it is the right thing for you.

    • Reply by Billy on 2015-07-28 07:55:10

      I am in total agreement with you nominois :)

  • Comment by yobec on 2015-07-27 21:10:37

    Hi Dorcas
    In answer to your question as to how I found out so many were depressed and/or on medication, it happened over the span of a few years during conversations with various individuals in the congregation. I remember thinking at one time, what! another one? As for the P.O's wife, he told me himself.

    • Reply by Marvin Shilmer on 2015-07-28 11:55:03

      I recall a CO meeting with elders from the late 1990s where the Society provided script used by the CO contained language expressing that the GB thought an inordinate number of JWs were taking anti-depression meds and were concerned about it. I thought it unusual that this would be recognized and in print on the CO's outline, but after the meeting I asked to see his outline and there it was in black-and-white.

  • Comment by father jack on 2015-07-28 03:17:20

    Yes I noticed that as well . It was amazing how many were on tablets for depression in our congregation . When they were continually described as gods happy people . It told me that something didn't add up . I'm a happy outgoing person by nature but even I toward the end was feeling really down . My son is a psychologist and he says a lot of problems are caused by an individual being trapped and pressured by the expectations of other people around them to the point they cannot be themselves anymore . Like a bird in a cage . The point being if we want to be happy then we have to feel free .

  • Comment by father jack on 2015-07-29 03:48:53

    I remember giving the talk coping with life's anxieties where the outline encouraged us to try and do without prescribed drugs if possible . I gave the public talk only to be criticised by the presiding overseer as he and his family were on anti depressants . Yes gods happy people . Somethings wrong

  • Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-07-29 05:32:25

    @Sis Billy,I too am in Australia and am looking to establish a network of true Christian friends
    It's not on topic but can I please get comments on what has happened here with the revelations by a royal commission that over 1000 child abuse cases going back to 1950 have been unreported to the authority's by WT representatives, the evidence is damning, an elder even confessing to the commission that he destroyed records of judicial cases involving peadophila without reporting it to law enforcement , it won't be long that anyone with a conscience is going to leave the org.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-29 07:54:14

      Hi Wild Olive,
      The video transcripts of the on-going proceedings are to be found on Barbara Anderson's site. Since this is not a civil or even criminal action of a single case, but a country-wide investigation at the government level and since it is being broadcast to the world, it is most damning. For me what is most distressing is the evasive responses the witnesses so far have demonstrated, as well as the lack of contrition and the absence of any willingness to admit wrongdoing.

      • Reply by Billy on 2015-07-29 18:34:17

        One of the elders had a self righteous smirk and. Defiant attitude to the commissioner
        He hadn't read anything the victim has said or followed any of the royal commission - unbelievable!
        This is the same self righteous attitude I have witnessed with the circuit overseers I have met over the years
        They don't think they are doing anything wrong

      • Reply by Buster on 2015-07-29 21:18:23

        Destroying evidence, wow wow, and a elder lied/forgot about the father admitting in the judicial meeting that he said it was all true, but destroying notes. Oh yeah, I seen all thee thee days and I believe they won't resume court until Friday. August jw broadcast what you got for me, cause this just floored the world .

    • Reply by Billy on 2015-07-29 18:30:21

      Thanks wild olive how can we get in touch? :)))

      • Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-07-29 23:20:46

        I have the best chance of keeping confidence if you sms me on 0412838864 look forward to hear from you

  • Comment by on 2015-07-29 15:19:46

    Isaiah 8:20 Modern English Version (MEV)
    "To the law and to the testimony; if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

    • Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-30 18:00:56

      Yes!

  • Comment by Skye on 2015-07-31 02:38:28

    How could anyone watching this still want to remain a member of this cruel Organisation?

    • Reply by BN on 2015-07-31 13:42:12

      Remember, we are / were not members ... lol .. you can never leave ... of course we can just stop going, but in my country the org will still get its money from the government for members who really not are members anymore .. guess we are members when it comes to this money ... lol

      • Reply by Skye on 2015-07-31 14:50:55

        BN, Can you throw some light on your comment please?

        • Reply by BN on 2015-07-31 17:06:34

          In my country every registrated religious org gets money from the government pr head .. so it's up to the churches to send lists of how many they are.. so when one become a jw they also count your children ... it was very importent when i joined that they got all needed information (like snn in usa) about every family member .. There has been a lot in the media about churches reporting too many members .. but i do not have any reason to believe that about jw.org...It's like this because we did not have a separation between state and church, so when the statechurch got taxmoney, it evolved to this that every others, had to get it because we all pay taxes.. So they do not do anything wrong getting this money, but as you can see it's in their interest that people stay as a member / not dfs ..

      • Reply by on 2015-07-31 18:54:33

        Could you tell us which country you are referring to, where the government gives tax money to the WT on a per-member basis? If that would not reveal anything about you, that is?

  • Comment by Katrina on 2015-07-31 14:38:54

    BN I don't understand you comment, how does the WT get money from the government for members whether going or not?

  • Comment by BN on 2015-07-31 17:28:18

    This has been back on my head for two years now, so it was time to leave ... but as we all know it's impossibke without loosing friends and family... so it's understandable that many just faide ... For me it's also a question about my conscience... about what the bible really teach and they getting money for me, teaching something i cannont support ..

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-31 17:59:30

      This raises an interesting question, BN. When one goes inactive, one is no longer considered a member of the congregation. One's name is removed from the service group lists which are posted on the announcement board. So they really can't claim a person who is inactive as a member to the government without also including them in the membership roles which means including him on the service group lists. Seems like another example of a double standard.

  • Comment by father jack on 2015-07-31 18:30:16

    By I don't get it either I've never heard of this type of thing what country are you from ?
    ?

    • Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-07-31 20:22:42

      I would bet it's a Latin American country with an outstanding growth figure .

    • Reply by BN on 2015-08-01 16:35:30

      Skandinavia

  • Comment by Christian on 2015-07-31 20:28:44

    "Let Paul’s words to the Romans be our motto: “Let God be found true, though every man be a liar.” (Rom. 3:4)"
    I couldn't agree more Meleti.
    This has always been one of my favourite scriptures, because like all the other verses of renown it packages so much meaning into so few words.

  • Comment by Alien resident on 2015-08-01 00:18:07

    Yesterday in the public ministry here in Australia, no doubt the bro's & sis's are hurt and deeply angry with those who commit such terrible crimes as this. I personally was shocked to hear so many have been abused!! Very sad,I hope this brings some justice and closure. There needs to be real change that's for sure. I must admit that once upon a time 2 things I felt proud of 1, I could tell householder, don't know who the GB where, now there on the midday show, 2, that were a clean (relatively speaking) group of people. Well that's changed, of recent times. Jesus is I think using rom 13 & overriding the GB and elders, and is truly judging.

  • Comment by father jack on 2015-08-01 03:08:35

    Let's get things in perspective . The vast majority of jehovahs witnesses are decent people with a very high moral standard i believe any way . Who are also appalled by these types of acts . The problem lies with the facade that the Watchtower has created which has led them to believe that these sort of things don't happen in the (truth) . That has led to an environment where all can be exploited in one way or another as they have put their guard down and put complete trust in those people around them . This is not the message of the bible it warns to be on guard as we will be surrounded by wolves in sheepsclothing even in the congregation . Paul warned of this and implied that many of these types would beI positions of power . Acts 20 . 2 timothy 2 . It seems religion tends to foster this type of thing , but I believe justice will be done in the end .

  • Comment by Skye on 2015-08-01 04:27:19

    If brothers and sisters are so shocked and concerned, then why are they still out on the door to door ministry when surely such a practice is posing a danger for children. Imagine you are a parent or single parent and someone comes to your door offering to study the Bible with you - perhaps that brother could be a paedophile. And what about inviting people to the Kingdom Hall or offering them WT literature without even warning them that their children could be in danger. There are vulnerable people out there, so what does having love for our fellow man really mean?
    Yes, we are to preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God - Jehovah's Witnesses are not preaching the Good News according to the Bible, we have already worked that out. We need to study the Bible and listen to Jesus Christ - it is possible, there is hope.

    • Reply by father jack on 2015-08-01 15:02:04

      I think the problem is that when these things happen they always deride the individual that is directly to blame that's assuming they know about it , but one thing they never do is level the blame at the organisation or the religion itself . I remember having that mindset myself when i hit problems it was always that the brothers were imperfect it was never down to the religion itself . Many brothers don't realise that it's the unscriptural procedures of the organisation that are atl least part of the problem and the trust us concept . Even if the evidence is overwhelming many go into denial and just will not accept it could be the fault of the religion itself . They are convinced that everything that the v watchtower teaches comes from God . They have been misled they need to do some serious bible study to see things as they really are . They just don't seem to have the borea mentality I just don't get their attitude but I have come to appreciate not everyone is like me .

      • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-01 18:26:42

        Once brothers and sisters become aware that there is a problem of child abuse within the Organisation, or indeed anywhere, then we all have a responsibility to start asking serious questions, and doing everything we can to protect children from harm.
        There are no excuses.

        • Reply by father jack on 2015-08-02 01:38:14

          I agree skye , but by the time the Watchtower news filter by fear system gets turned on and then if any bad news about the religion does get through its then cast aside as apostate lies and the old slander card comes out . The brothers get the impression that there is no big problem .I've seen it as an elder there's an awful lot of secrecy , and i think that's creating more of a dangerous environment than it would normally in other let's say open organisations .As sad as it is though this sort of thing goes on the whole world and not just with the jehovahs witnesses. I'm just glad I'm not part of an organisedreligion anymore .

  • Comment by BN on 2015-08-01 16:40:57

    I left the statechurch most of us here belong to; you belong if one of your parents belong ... years before i met a witness I wrote a letter, and got a certificate that i was no longer a member ..Maybe i should ask for one from jw.org ? They surtenly push for people to get one, when we study with them ....Or ask my government how the rules apply for jw.org and their policy .....In these days it's the cc that is accused of fraud with these lists.. ...earlier it was our statechurch ... and some muslim congs ..
    It's up to the religion and its congs to tell how many they actually are ... I never thought of the dobbel standards ... but i know that we adopts everything the gb demands without any question about how it apply in our country ... like the civil service ...

  • Comment by on 2015-08-01 16:53:45

    BN, can you tell us which country you are referring to here?

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-01 17:04:11

      I have heard that Germany has this system. People resign from their churches in Germany to save having to pay the church tax. I may be wrong about that. I'm going from memory.

      • Reply by menrov on 2015-08-02 04:52:41

        It used to be in various European countries like that. The religious organisation would receive State support (from taxpayers) based on the number of registered members. In the Netherlands people indicate their membership when they register themselves (or at birth done by the parents) with the municipality of the area they are going to live in. I believe this arrangement (state support) has changed in The Netherlands. The registered organisation receive a tax exempt status (i.e. on donations, other financial proceeds and assets). Not sure about other countries.
        If i is still the old way (support based on registered members), then if you do not want to be known as a member of a particular organisation, ensure you have your membership indicated removed from the administration in the religious organisation and / or municipality.

  • Comment by Billy on 2015-08-02 02:27:09

    The Australian royal commission even has copies of the letters from the wt org to the elders regarding the perpetrators - very revealing I have only read one of them
    I think all religious judicial courts should be held in the open like the nation of Israel did by holding their courts at the gates for all to witness - no secrecy everything transparent

    • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-02 04:48:55

      The Watchtower is all about control and deception - they are masters at it.

  • Comment by menrov on 2015-08-02 05:01:14

    When the Berlin wall was torn down,some were brought to court for killing innocent people (people trying to escape / flee from the eastern (communist) to the western (capitalist) side of Berlin. THe judge asked why they shot. And the reply from the soldiers was often that they were following orders. The Judges did not accept that argument and said that they have a conscience and a mind of their own to see if their orders were just and righteous. By honoring these orders, they showed they supported the policies and were just as guilty as the leaders imposing these policies and orders.
    Same with elders. Obeying the orders from the gb makes them just as liable as the leaders. Supporting something that is wrong or is against one's conscience is the same as saying that you actually agree. Hence Revelations advises to leave Babylon the Great in order not to share in the punishment they will receive, regardless if one is actually guilty of doing the same things as Babylon the Great.

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