Make a Joyful Sound!

Comment by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-24 18:16:55

Yes, and who are we praising if we sing these words?
I thought hymns, psalms and songs of praise were to praise God and Jesus Christ.
Self congratulatory loyalty hymns to the slave who has already decided they're faithful don't come high on my hit list.
I have to change the words to quite a few these days.
Or stand there In silent protest.
I thought this watchtower study was particularly condescending.

• Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-24 20:04:35

  Hi Martha,
  
  Hope you are feeling better. My wife and I had to go to the meeting today. We haven't been at one for a few weeks. Some of our still-in family were giving us the business.
  
  We were not singing the words to the songs either. We don't agree with most of the lyrics. What a bizarre situation....

  • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 04:07:45

    Hi Warp,
    
    It is bizarre isn't it?
    
    Remember though that it's the organisation has changed, not us.
    We'd rather be like our Father after all. James 1:17
    I don't recognise the sound of this music or lyrics. One thing about being brought up as a JW is that we know how to stand out from the crowd when it goes against our beliefs or conscience.
    I won't bleat to their tune even if I have to be in the pen with them now and then.
    Thank you for asking how I am.?
    Still struggling to be honest... It seems I've got the Aussie flu! Apparently the Aussies gave us the flu this year and we Brits gave away the Ashes in return!?
    I'm on the second week, improving slowly. No meetings for me though for a while!
    See, every cloud...........?

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-12-24 20:06:18

  And yet you stay.
  
  (forgive me)

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-25 00:32:11

    Being a little judgmental, are we? Even after we leave the religion, the mindset still plagues us, like a virus that keeps coming back.

    • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 04:16:42

      Ha! A virus that keeps coming back.
      Very pertinent Meleti.
      ?

    • Reply by Devora on 2017-12-25 08:48:44

      Prayers-in Love-for all of you here.Each individual answers,as the Scriptures plainly show,to Jah and Christ not men.Each day we'prove'ourselves,(Christ's outlines).We do not know about tomorrow;will we be still alive?...or dead...Innately-understanding that there is free will; that none of us are living the others ex-periences;in James' inspired counsels too,I chose/choose to stay.And yes,MM,I'm 'faded';quite a process,took about 3 yrs.I too also found the new songs (then)as'unable to listen to the voice of a stranger'.If only All of you on here knew..How much I desire wholesouled Peace for you;proving our Unity.(I always was the'go-between peacemaker'in the family;for others). Much Love,D.

      • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 18:17:54

        Thanks Devora, ?
        Much appreciated.

        • Reply by Devora on 2017-12-25 18:56:08

          Dear Martha and others here,reading through all your more recent posts,shows a lot of uniquely-stressful & complicated;painful difficulties(we who have already'faded' have gone through)of what You are currently facing+doing.You are Beautiful!in your candid revealings,of showing your Love and Care for others-still in,with such finesse, & compassionate ways.

  • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 04:15:04

    I forgive you Robert because you don't know my situation.
    We're all at different stages of waking or leaving and some of us are stuck for the moment.
    I would be out like a flash with blazing guns declaring my objections and outrage, but if I did I would cause so much damage to people I love dearly. I need to extricate myself very carefully. A bit like an operation on a tumour. It's a delicate operation not a savage hacking.
    Meanwhile i attend when I have to, but I would not consider myself to be staying. Not at all sir, so be careful with your judgement.
    With love,
    Martha

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-12-25 06:25:37

      I find it interesting that both you and Meleti (and evidently others that have voted me down) believe that four little words constitute a "judgment". Those words express, not a judgment, but a plain fact - and one I point out with regret, not judgment.
      
      It is one thing to avoid singing some lyrics you object to, or avoid commenting on some paragraphs at a WT study. It is another thing to leave. Staying while 'your heart is not in it' is still staying. Saying that you don't "consider it staying" is only a case of being in denial. That is not judgment. That is reality, and that is the truth. I am truly sorry if that truth hurts, but pointing it out doesn't make me judgmental.
      
      For instance, if the discussion were about someone regularly attending a Catholic mass (but with reluctance), would you yourself be as "judgment-free" about them and say they were not really attending mass because theiir heart was not in it? Or, would you point out the simple fact they they attend and stay for the mass?
      
      How is your situation any different?
      
      If you really want me to be judgmental, I can do that quite easily: In times of war, a person who passively takes sides with the enemy for sake of convenience and self preservation is considered a collaborator at best, and a traitor at worst, and would be seen by many as a coward.
      
      If you GENUINELY believe that the WT religion is false, is an enemy of God and actively disrespects the role of Christ, and yet you stay, then I have to ask, what does that make you?
      
      You are free to answer that any way you like, and in doing so, it is not I that judge you. Judge yourself.

      • Reply by Pekanman on 2017-12-25 10:24:20

        Not knowing someone's situation in life, their trouble, their personal problems it really would be a wise course not to offer advice or you own opinion on their matters.
        
        Like others I have aged parents that need care, and as I am the only one that can, and the only child not in a disassociated or disfellowshipped state I am the only one they will let help them in the family. Yes it might not be right but I stay for now to support my parents. If Jesus on the torture stake was worried about his mother, what does that tell you?
        
        Looking down upon others and using the excuse "it's the reality" is not kind. Only Jehovah can judge and until then having love amongst ourselves would be a good goal to have.

        • Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-25 10:44:54

          Hi Pekanman,
          
          Sounds like you basically have the same situation with your aging parents as we do. It can be very stressful trying to be supportive of them. Now is not the time to pull the rug out from under them though.
          
          If somebody would have told us a couple of years ago that we would be facing this strange situation, we would have laughed. But now it is closer to crying.
          
          May you have the strength to endure my brother....

          • Reply by Pekanman on 2017-12-25 10:54:05

            Same to you. I can appreciate what you guys are going through and will include you in my prayers. And it is not my place to try and destroy my parents faith, so we do what we can. All that is ever asked is that we do our best. And every situation is different.
            
            And you are so right, I never thought I would be where I am today. But I think it's the proper guidance from our King that helps us daily. More prayer!! Lol.

          • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 15:53:50

            I'm here with you all, same dilemma, same feelings.
            Sending love and hugs to you all, and praying for wisdom and discernment for us all.
            Thanks for all your support, it means a lot.
            Much love
            Martha

      • Reply by Psalmbee on 2017-12-25 07:24:23

        I gave you 2 Thumbs up on that Robert cause thats all I got. I Like the langWiTch. IT tickles my "Ears". breaker breaker

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-25 08:51:48

        Robert, if you were not being judgmental, but merely stating a fact, then why ask for forgiveness?
        
        I might comment to a friend, "You've gained a lot of weight. You're very fat." Technically, I'm just stating a fact. A fact that is obvious to all present and does not really need to be voiced aloud.
        
        If my friend takes offense, would my best course of action be to try to justify my words, or engage in further judgmental discussion? Or perhaps the best course of action, the most loving course, would be to simply apologize?

        • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-01-01 07:29:20

          Why? Beause I was not merely stating a fact, but an extremely important fact that I knew ahead of time would be controversial.
          
          Think of it this way. Suppose a married person came to know their spouse was unfaithful and unsuitable for several other reasons. They then confide in a friend about their situation. The friend replies, "and yet you stay". Is that friend being judgmental or attacking them? Or, simply asking the ONE question that absolutely NEEDS to be asked?
          
          It does utterly no good to stick your head in the sand and tiptoe around this controversy, as if the denial alone will make the problem go away. It won't. Attacking me and resorting to name calling can't help to evade the problem or to escape responsibility for making up your mind on it. Those are questions every JW must face. It's not my fault, and I am not to blame for your predicament.
          
          Here is an exercise for you. Suppose you had a married friend who was having an affair. If you tell them they are being disloyal, is that judgmental or stating the facts? To a guilty conscience, being told the truth will always be viewed as if "judgmental", because it confronts them with a truth they don't want to know or face, and a truth they definitely don't want advertised.
          
          I told you the truth. If you want to attack me for telling the truth, be my guest. When I write on this forum, I don't do so for the praise of men. I have an obligation to the truth, but not to any one individual, which is as it should be for everyone.
          
          If you genuinely believe I must apologize for telling the truth, and your followers believe I deserve to be attacked for telling the truth, then something is gravely wrong here.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-01 09:24:55

            Robert, first of all, they are not my followers. I don't have followers. They are followers of Jesus Christ and their own faith-based comments in each article attest to that fact.
            
            Now, you raise two examples to attempt to show you are not judging but merely speaking truth by stating facts.
            
            The first example is when you tell a friend with a cheating spouse "and yet you stay". The second example is when you tell a married friend that they are being disloyal by having an affair.
            
            You seem to feel that stating a fact never entails judgment. Therefore, you see these two examples as equivalent. If we ignore the way you've expressed yourself, we might accept that, but there is subtlety in your wording that carries the idea of judgment. Do you not see the nuance?
            
            In your second example, you are stating a fact. However, in your first, you are adding judgment to your statement of fact. You do not say: “You are staying with him.” You say: “and YET you stay.” That one word carries all the judgment. It says, “I wouldn’t stay with him, so why are you staying with him.”
            
            If you cannot see that, then accept that there are nuances of language that the rest of us see which you do not, and apologize. What does the apology cost you?

      • Reply by Phelps on 2017-12-25 10:45:43

        Traducción de Google:
        It's easy to be afraid of the dictatorship ... If you have a lot to lose. But you can rebel in secret. "Your father who looks in secret, will not pay you"? What do you say? In the Bible there are many examples of men and women who did not have to demonstrate externally their courage to face the apostasy or dictatorship in which they were (Isaiah 1:10, 2 Corinthians 11: 12-15, Galatians 2: 6) reminds Jonathan, the son of saul? Was he a coward for helping David secretly, or what about the 7,000 men who had not bowed to BAAL in the days of Elias? Where does the bible say they made some show of their bravery? What do you say about Christians in the first century? I would say that many of our brothers at that time went through the same situations as us. Have to listen to the "superfine apostles" to "the ministers of justice" and mentally reject their teachings while maintaining peace with their brothers. It was our Lord Jesus who highlighted these brothers when he said that "some" had not come to know the "deep things of Satan" (Revelation 2:24) how did they do that? Why did our Lord have to highlight these brothers if it were so obvious? Think about it ... really Think about it. You can call me a coward if you want but I have fought so that my son is not controlled or dominated as I was ... I appreciate everyone's struggle here and I love them from a distance, they make me feel that I am not alone.

      • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-12-25 15:43:14

        "And yet you stay"
        That's what you said.
        You don't know anything about me except what I've said here on Beroeans, so to say I'm staying is a judgement of my status.
        I'm no more staying than a person stuck in an airport waiting for the opportunity to fly out is intent on living there.
        If it's true, Robert, that you have never been a JW, and yet feel able to comment on those of us who are and have been all our lives... Then I feel you are speaking without authority. Only a JW will understand the unique situation we find ourselves in, realising after decades, in fact my whole life, that what I believed wholeheartedly was the only true religion,is in fact just one of many that are wrought with problems, inaccuracies and downright lies.
        It's devastating.
        Add to that the fact that everyone .... EVERYONE we really know and love are JWs too. We can't speak of our feelings for fear of being ejected for apostasy.
        This isn't like leaving any other religion Robert. It's not like when my parents left their church of birth to become JWS. They didn't lose their families, they weren't ostracised and treated as though they had a disease and avoided like the plague.
        If we openly express our disagreement with JW doctrine, our families will be required to shun us.
        Considering that many of here seem to be in the same boat, with elderly parents... Are we to put them in the position of having to choose between us and their lifetime beliefs? It's enough that's we're fading.... It breaks their hearts enough and I for one am not going to do more damage to parents that have loved me and raised me in the way they believed was right if I can fade gently.
        My own children left this religion as they became adults and we went through terrible pain and anguish believing that they were throwing away their chance of everlasting life.
        As it happens it started me on a course of checking to make sure my beliefs were true... And here we are.
        
        However I wouldn't wish that pain of heart on anyone, let alone my 80 plus parents and in laws and other family.
        
        I know I'm being a hypocrite. Which is what you've essentially called me. Although in my defence I have not been on field service for over a year and I never comment at all so there's no way you could say I'm supporting this religion. At best I view myself now as a visitor, much like I would be at a family funeral or wedding in another church. It means nothing to me.
        
        I don't know why I'm even defending my actions to you but you've made me angry. I don't feel the need to call you out on your actions or lack of because I don't know you and have no right to attack you. Have some compassion and grace at least, if you can't have empathy.
        
        This a place where we can find encouragement and fellow feeling among those who are in the same position as we are. Also we can have good discussion on scripture, which you're really good at Robert. I like reading your comments in general. Personally I'm in enough pain dealing with leaving this religion without you rubbing salt in it.
        
        I'd like you to state your facts a little more kindly in future if you wouldn't mind?
        
        With Christian love .....
        
        Remember even the real Martha got annoyed sometimes. ??

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-01-01 07:35:32

        There was nothing at all brutal intended, just the truth. Of course it is never easy. I never suggested otherwise. My point is that the question of why a JW would stay when they know for a certainty that the religion and organization they belong to is false is extremely important. You can't pretend the problem doesn't exist by chiding me with responses that amount to "how rude of you to point that out".
        
        Every person on this forum ought to be asking themselves that question evert day. Wht's more, the questions needs fo be debated on this forum. You need to stop living in frar, and face it!

  • Reply by Gogetter on 2017-12-25 07:45:35

    Robert, please correct me if I’m wrong but I seem to remember when you first started posting here that you said you were never a baptized Jehovah’s Witness?
    I would also like to know in your opinion which church, or Christian Group would you consider it acceptable to be involved in even it’s just attending their services?
    Would it be fair to say we would find them all teaching something not supported by scripture or even blatant out right lies, yet we may continue associating for many other positive reasons that in our mind outweigh the negative. In reality millions of Christians do just that and we have met them in the door to door work.
    Remember the “Wheat and the Weeds “ my friend.

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-01-01 07:07:26

      Gogetter, since you asked, you are incorrext in the first point; I was in fact a baptized JW. Which religious group do I think is acceptible? At this time, none. If you wish to associate with some group, that is your business.
      
      I have deferred looking at all the replies concerning my comments, because its more important that readers answer the underlying question for themselves, than to react to me personally. That is, "why do you stay" is an extremely important question that every JW simply MUST answer, if not to others then at least to themselves.
      
      When people become angered over the question or angered at me, they are missing the point. I am old and have few years left. I will be gone and forgotten, but this question remains to be answered. You can't pretend that the issue doesn't exist by being mad at me. I didn't cause this problem. It's one that every JW must face on their own. They HAVE to judge themselves, because their very lives and future depend on it.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-01 09:27:30

        Robert, You are stating that our lives depend on following your counsel about getting out of the organization. I'm not denying nor affirming whether that is true. However, since recently another group of men have claimed that our lives will depend on following their direction, I would ask you the question: What is the Scriptural basis for your assertion?

        • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-01-02 02:17:53

          Meleti, you are mischaracterizing my words. I did not say that lives depend on following my words or getting out of an organization. I said that if you believe the religion you belong to is false but you dont leave it, the most important question to ask yourself is why. That is not "my direction" and I ask no one to follow my direction.
          
          As for you, you might not confirm or deny anything I say (and why should you; who am I?) but you ought to state for the record where you stand, since your followers look to you for guidance.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-02 11:13:18

            Robert,
            
            First of all, I'm going to grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you skimmed over my previous response to you where I clarified that I do not have followers and that those who frequent this forum are followers only of the Christ. To say I have followers is to make me a spiritual leader, and one is out Leader, the Christ. Those who presume to lead in his place are sinning, and I hope you are not suggesting that I am a sinner who is trying to replace the Christ as leader.
            
            If I am mischaracterizing your words, I apologize. (You see. It's not hard to apologize.) However, in my defense, you did say—and I quote—that "I did not say that lives depend on following my words or getting out of an organization." However, in this comment you said, "That is, "why do you stay" is an extremely important question that every JW simply MUST answer, if not to others then at least to themselves....They HAVE to judge themselves, because their very lives and future depend on it."
            
            Robert, you still haven't answered my question from this comment.
            
            Before we can have a debate as you request, you have to give us the Scriptural basis for your request. We're not interested in debating opinions. You seem to be obfuscating. Please supply the Scriptures to support your view and we'll then have the basis for a discussion.

          • Reply by Phelps on 2018-01-04 04:40:04

            Traducción de Google :
            Dear brother robert: yes, you are right to ask "why stay" in fact I ask it every time I go to a hall of the kingdom (although it is very little). Will be able to find the opportunity to engage in an interesting conversation of the scriptures with some brave brother, in my case go "to the sheep losses" who do not know their way is important.you leave a seed it will grow (I hope not to speak like a JW;), you know that many of our brothers are in danger for the just done not to participate in the emblems in commemoration. I am a man who always asks me how I can help where Christ needs (not again JW ?), I hope to find a single sheep in Christ.
            Finally, I want to clarify that I spent many years serving an organization that made me believe that I served God, and I will not commit that same mistake again. I have read Meleti and many other brothers and I only see them as collaborators of Christ ... No How do my leaders or teachers. If you have to explain it, it's not funny. .... take care of yourself dear brother

  • Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-25 09:44:55

    Robert,
    
    When my wife and I started waking up about a year ago, we started formulating an exit strategy. My wife's parents are in their 80's and in poor health. They have been Witnesses for most of their lives.
    
    We have 2 adult daughters that we raised "in the truth", and now 3 grandkids as well. Just like Martha, we knew we had to delicately extricate ourselves from the Org instead of going out guns blazing.
    
    Don't get me wrong, we pretty much despise having to go to the KH every once in a while, but we also realize that we don't want to upset the apple cart too quickly and lose our dear family members either.
    It is a precarious situation to be sure.
    
    To be able to post here on BP relieves a lot of stress for us. I'm sure Martha feels similarly.
    
    While I do appreciate your direct, honest comments, Robert, it can also be a discouragement to basically tell someone that they need to just "get out of her" (Revelation 18:4) on YOUR time table.
    
    Robert, we realize that is true, but we are doing the best we can under OUR circumstances. I am confident that as my Christian brother, you meant no harm by your comment. Just remember to try to have empathy for the situation of others,
    
    Your brother in Christ,
    
    WS

  • Reply by wild olive on 2017-12-25 16:14:32

    You do make a point Robert .
    Ime sure the time will come to make a clean break, I handed a letter to the elders in my cong outlining 10 things I no longer accepted as truth, I did this in the belief they would disfellowship me , I was then going to take a recording device with me into the hearing , but it never got to that stage,and that was 5 years ago. I don't go door to door, I don't give money , and my wife who is still "in"hardly ever goes as I think she doesn't really enjoy the people there. I think time is doing a marvellous job, and , on the odd occasion I do go , I get to speak about Christ , I could march out and not ever come back , but there are people I truly feel for and who need help , I feel Ime leaving them in a lurch , what do you suggest I do Robert?

    • Reply by Warp Speed on 2017-12-25 18:17:18

      Hello Wild Olive,
      
      We haven't chatted in a while. Hope you and the family are doing well.
      
      I would agree that there may come a time to make a clean break from the Org. Right now it seems that most of us are in agreement that the time to do that varies according to our individual circumstances.
      
      I remember from some of your past comments that you had compiled your "10 Things you longer believe" and laid it on the elders. Now that took some courage! Almost unbelievable that they didn't DF you on the spot.
      
      I really appreciate your positive attitude through all of it!? You are a huge encouragement to me and obviously to many others on this forum. Thank you?

      • Reply by wild olive on 2017-12-26 02:08:49

        Thanks Warp
        The family is doing fine, less time they spend at the meetings , seems the better they are, or maybe Ime biased?
        Since the command to " get out of Babylon the great " is found in the book of Revelation, a book full of symbolism, Ime not so sure it's so cut and dried as is presented in WT literature, and as I once believed.
        I think it was Leonardo Josephus said that recognising that much is still unfulfilled puts one in a better position of understanding. It seems the 1st century Christians mixed regularly with people in the synagogues , and some of them still took vows Acts 21:23&24, so where do we draw the line ?
        Time I think will reveal it in each individuals case.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-25 23:45:54

    I think another think we should remember is that Paul continued to attend synagogue for some years after his conversion.

Comment by wild olive on 2017-12-24 21:13:12

What is said here is so true about singing, real singing gets to the emotions , beliefs and expresses them . As a matter of comparison, I went to a few Bible Student meetings. They still sing many songs that go back before Charles Russell. In their song book they have over 400 songs , most of which praise Christ. The other notable thing was all of them sang with gusto and all of them took turns in playing the piano for accompanyment, music and singing is a big part of their worship , rather enjoyed it.

Comment by NikL on 2017-12-25 11:26:49

So the other night as they were all singing "listen Obey and Be blessed" I was thinking very similar thoughts and as usual, Mileti puts thoughts to words better than I could ever dream of doing.
So many WT "hymns" are to the organization and they pretty much turn my stomach.
Like some others here I am stuck attending some meetings with my believing wife to keep peace. I just stand and look at the monitors and feel very awkward.
Well written Mileti!

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-12-25 12:34:12

Wow ! What a lot of similar comments. All very encouraging to those of us here. Like many I have family, my own son, well in. My wife is about as in as I am and I will carry on while I must, for her and my son's sake. Time will see what happens.
As regards the songs, I trawled through the last song book, and there are relatively few which I would object to singing, although there are a few lines I do not like in some, while there are plenty about Christian qualities.
Now I cringe at some of the songs which extol the GB either directly or indirectly, or they rabbit on about the preaching work and how wonderful it is, while some highlight aspects of God's kingdom which just cannot be proved.
Like many of you here, I will sing what I can, when I attend, and pass silently over the expressions I find distasteful, and remember the example of Naaman, who apologised to Jehovah for having to bow down to false Gods. I am sure Jesus will understand.

• Reply by James on 2017-12-31 09:09:33

  I share ur sentiment. Sometimes I coin my own lyrics in replacements

Comment by THE DRIFTER on 2017-12-25 23:13:33

To Robert, ...
“Real love amounts to withholding the truth, even when you're offered the perfect opportunity to hurt someone’s feelings” - David Sadaris

Oh and also, ...”Up your nose with a rubber hose!”, ripped from Vinnie Barbarino

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Comment by mediator007 on 2017-12-27 01:37:11

Warm greetings to all my brothers and sisters here on BP. I rarely comment but always read the watchtower discussion and comments. I found this array of comments quite interesting respecting the emotions involved and the reactions to one particular persons comments. (Robert) For all of you to understand where I am in respects to the organization. I am happy to say that I have successfully faded and have not attended meetings for several years now. Of my five believing children all but one has left the organization as well. The last remaining one (my oldest daughter) called me yesterday and we talked in length - she is beginning to recognize that things are not right and is yet struggling, so I am happy to encourage her - but with patience. In the past some of my children simply viewed me as being apostate. Having been an elder for many years I understand that they were distraught over me having left. In time they have all gained insight into the why. Patience does have a marvelous influence upon others. So what is my main point - Would it not also be wise to show "patience" towards our brother Robert in waiting for him to grow to maturity as a Christian in expression - and compassion towards others. It is just my observation from what has been written in these few comments - but my impression (although I readily admit that I know nothing about Robert except what has been expressed here) is that Robert has much maturity to learn and many areas to grow. He clearly is opinionated. Perhaps we can all be graceful and let our brother mature and grow to become much more kind and understanding rather than blunt and opinionated. These qualities do not easily come to certain persons. Let us be patient, kind and merciful to all.
A hearty thank you to Meleti for your efforts and bringing these points for us to review. It is actually the first kingdom song that extolled the governing body that was a major factor in me leaving. It was like a gong in the midst of a lovely melody. Something was clearly wrong!!! I see that it has simply gotten worse. (smile)
Love to all - Thomas - Mediator 007

Comment by Zugzwang on 2017-12-27 09:52:14

John 19:38 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away...
If Joseph could be awarded with the rare priviledge of caring for our kings body then i dont think anyone should be phased by an earthlings opinion.. lol. Our Judges appraisal of us and our efforts should be all that matters. I dont comment much but i felt compelled here. Humans beings are inherently flawed and Jesus recognized that in his apostles and taught them with love to love always. We all aspire to be more christlike and issues like the ones here will occur less frequently.
I love you all and appreciate your life saving efforts because for some of us here it is really a matter of life and death. Words can be powerful. Actions have consequences much so in this pharasiacal organisation. In the past i would have used some more choice words to express how i feel about the judgemental tone of some of the comments but i think the christian association i have recieved from this site is finally making me truely understand what it means to be Christian . Thanks again brothers and sisters. Much love from Nigeria

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-27 10:15:13

  Thank you, Zugzwang. I so appreciate what you have said here. I was just commenting to a friend last night how my own journey has benefited from the interaction with others on these sites. If you were to scan the comments on the original BP Site starting at the oldest articles and moving forward in time, you'd witness this progression yourself. I'm somewhat embarrassed by my JW-influenced wording at times, especially when dealing with the more confrontational commentors. It can still be a challenge, even now going on seven years. But I try to temper my evaluation of what a person is saying by bearing in mind that I don't always know the back story of the person making the comment, a drawback of this type of community. Some, I've come to learn, are seriously damaged emotionally; others suffer from mental disorders which are every bit as real as a broken leg. Some are just plain angry which is very understandable given the decades-long deception they've been subjected to.
  
  What is encouraging, what I've witnessed time and again, is that as we progress in our study we become more "in Christ". We worry less about ourselves and more about others. We care more about not hurting the feelings of others than of being hurt ourselves. Love replaces judgment.

  • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-12-27 14:54:59

    Thanks for that understanding comment, Meliti. While many here may have faded, others are fading, while others may be fairly in, at least in person. We are all trying to deal with this in the best way possible, and are affected by existing friendships and the position of spouses and relatives. May Jehovah bless everyone's efforts to keep going, and thanks so very much Meliti for the strength you have given us, wherever you believe it comes from.
    A special hi to those in the UK, in the hope that one day we might meet up (though I have no idea how).

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-27 15:34:43

      If the Lord provides, I'll be heading "over the pond" this coming year, so we'll see if we can schedule a "regional convention". Sorry, couldn't resist.

      • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-12-29 05:38:57

        Let us know which airport you are coming to. I might be able to meet you off the plane with a big MV card !

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-29 08:59:36

          Will do, Leonardo!

    • Reply by wild olive on 2017-12-28 05:44:12

      Brain that is so good to hear, you have actually met someone who knows BP.
      Mate that's like finding a diamond in a pile of gravel, am a tad envious.

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2017-12-27 14:51:44

One little nugget I use on my wife is one both my brother and I noticed years ago. There's an obvious power in gospel music missing from our own library of songs. It also feels like the more simple the gospel tune is, the heavier it is. Our songs seem completely secular by comparison. The reason is you can't duplicate soul. Your work either has soul or it doesn't, and you can't replicate it.

Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2017-12-27 18:17:50

(Matthew 7:1-5)

Be careful not to judge the truth
By what we feel is right,
For we were once lost in our youth,
With feelings not so bright,

We judged another for their part
In growing in this world
Presumption that divides the heart
Of motives not unfurled,

Like flags that are yet in disguise
Of things kept out of sight,
They are just weeds and fruitless lies
That deserts grow by night,

While only on this trail we trudged
With all believed so true
Before they told us all we judged
Would fall upon us too,

So guard our hearts on what we say
And where we heap the blame,
For it will find its way back home,
To set us all aflame,

For all have stumbled down this road
From where reproof will come,
As truth will bring its heavy load
And all its mighty sum.

While some remain so proud of self
And others they do shun,
We best leave judgement on the shelf
Our judge is yet to come.

• Reply by Maria on 2017-12-28 03:30:05

  Hi Smoldering Wick,
  
  Thank you for the mindresting gorgeous poëm. I will read it a few times at least, to calm those whirlwind of emotions I had . Due to feelings what is right and not.
  The poëm puts it all in perspective.
  Christian love.

Comment by Thaddeus on 2017-12-27 21:02:43

The argument made here about song vs. Hymn is really pointless in my view. The definition is clear, and the two words are synonyms.

song
sôNG/Submit
noun
a short poem or other set of words set to music or meant to be sung.
synonyms: air, strain, ditty, melody, tune, number, show tune, track, anthem, hymn, chanty, chantey, ballad, aria; informalearworm
"a beautiful song"

• Reply by tyhik on 2017-12-28 04:31:00

  It is perfectly fine for two words to be synonyms and still differ in meaning. From Merriam-Webster, (CAPITALIZATION is mine):
  
  synonym : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or NEARLY the same meaning in SOME or all senses
  
  Hymn is a song of praise. So every hymn is a song, but not the other way around.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-12-28 07:44:07

  The point, Thaddeus, is that the Organization makes this distinction as part of their overall campaign to separate themselves from what they view as false religion. They don't want the brothers to think they are just like every other religion out there, so they go out of there way to change the nomenclature. They say, "We don't meet in churches, we meet in Kingdom halls. We don't call on Jesus, we call on Jehovah. We don't belong to a Church, we belong to the Organization. We don't sing hymns, we sing songs."
  
  If you're doing the same thing, but want to fool people into thinking you're not; and if you are the very thing you denounce, and you don't want your followers to notice; you change the nomenclature. False religion sings hymns, but we sing songs of praise.

Comment by James on 2017-12-31 08:56:18

Songs or hymns to God and Christ are in order, and almost all hymn in Christianity has sectarian or doctrinal bias.

My major dismay is the short time devoted to songs and prayers by jw- 5min.
There are no avenues to gather as a congregation just for songs, say 30mins, and the two or three stanzas of shorts songs.

@Zugzwang from Nigeria, I say good to know, I am too

Comment by Zugzwang on 2018-01-01 09:23:07

Hi James
Im more than glad to know you are from Nigeria. I wonder if its possible to email you

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-01-01 09:35:12

  Hi Zugzwang. I'll send James your email and he can contact you if he wishes.