We are well past the midway point in this series of videos in which we are examining the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses using their own criteria to see if they meet with God’s approval or not. To this point, we have found that they have failed to meet two of the five criteria. The first is “respect for God’s Word” (See The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, p. 125, par. 7). The reason we can say they have failed to fulfill this criteria point is that their core teachings—like the doctrines of 1914, the overlapping generations, and most significantly, the salvation hope of the Other Sheep—are unscriptural, and thus, false. One can hardly be said to respect God’s word if one insists on teaching things that go contrary to it.
(We could examine other doctrines, but that might seem like beating a dead horse. Given the importance of the doctrines already considered, there is no need to go further to prove the point.)
The second criteria that we’ve examined is whether or not Witnesses are preaching the Good News of the Kingdom. With the Other Sheep doctrine, we saw that they preach a version of the Good News that actually hides the full and wonderful nature of the reward being offered to faithful Christians. Therefore, while they may be preaching their good news, the actual Good News of the Christ has been perverted.
The remaining three criteria based on the publications of the Watchtower, Bible & Tract Society are:
1) Keeping separate from the World and its affairs; i.e., maintaining neutrality
2) Sanctifying God’s name.
3) Showing love for one another as the Christ showed love for us.
We will now examine the first of these three criteria points to evaluate just how well the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses is doing.
From the 1981 version of The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life we have this official Bible-based position:
Yet another requirement of true religion is that it keep separate from the world and its affairs. The Bible, at James 1:27, shows that, if our worship is to be clean and undefiled from the standpoint of God, we must keep ourselves “without spot from the world.” This is an important matter, for, “whoever . . . wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4) You can appreciate why this is so serious when you remember that the Bible points out that the ruler of the world is God’s chief adversary, Satan the Devil.—John 12:31.
(tr chap. 14 p. 129 par. 15 How to Identify the True Religion)
So, taking a non-neutral stand is equivalent to aligning oneself with the Devil and making oneself an enemy of God.
At times, this understanding has been very costly for Jehovah’s Witnesses. For example, we have this news report:
“Jehovah’s Witnesses are undergoing brutal persecution—beatings, rape, even murder—in the southeast African nation of Malawi. Why? Solely because they maintain Christian neutrality and thus refuse to buy political cards that would make them members of the Malawi Congress Party.”
(w76 7/1 p. 396 Insight on the News)
I remember writing letters to the Government of Malawi protesting this horrific persecution. It resulted in a refugee crisis with thousands of Witnesses fleeing to the neighbouring country of Mozambique. All the Witnesses had to do was buy a membership card. They didn’t have to do anything else. It was like an identity card that one had to show to the police if questioned. Yet, even this small step was seen as compromising their neutrality, and so they suffered horribly to maintain their loyalty to Jehovah as instructed by the Governing Body of the time.
The view of the Organization hasn’t changed much. For instance, we have this excerpt from a leaked video which is to be shown at this summer’s Regional Conventions.
[embed]https://youtu.be/_PcekXzW7lc[/embed]
This brother is not even being asked to join a political party, nor to hold a membership in a political organization. This is merely a local matter, a protest; yet to engage in it would be considered as a compromise of Christian neutrality.
There is one line from the video of particular interest to us. The manager who is trying to get the Jehovah’s Witness to join the protest says: “So you won’t stand in line to protest, but at least sign the sheet to show you support the protest. It’s not like you’re voting or joining a political party.”
Remember, this is a staged production. So, everything written by the script writer tells us something about the position of the Organization relating to the topic of neutrality. Here, we learn that joining a political party would be considered as worse than simply signing the protest sheet. Nevertheless, both actions would constitute a compromise of Christian neutrality.
If signing a protest sheet is considered a compromise of neutrality, and if joining a political party is seen as an even worse compromise of Christian neutrality, then it follows that joining the image of the wild beast – the United Nations – that represents all political organizations would be the foremost compromise of Christian neutrality.
This is significant, because this video is part of a convention symposium titled: “Future Events That Will Require Courage”. This particular talk is titled: “The Cry of ‘Peace and Security’”.
Many years ago, the Organization’s interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 (“the cry of peace and security”) led them to publish this item regarding the need for neutrality:
Christian Neutrality as God’s War Approaches
Nineteen centuries ago there was an international plot or concerting of efforts against Christ himself, God permitting this to bring about the martyrdom of Jesus. (Acts 3:13; 4:27; 13:28, 29; 1 Tim. 6:13) This was foretold in Psalm 2:1-4. Both this psalm and its partial fulfillment 19 centuries ago pointed forward to the international conspiracy against Jehovah and his Christ at this time when the full right to the “kingdom of the world” belongs to them both.—Rev. 11:15-18.
True Christians will recognize the present international plot as in operation against Jehovah and his Christ. So they will continue to endure in their Christlike neutrality, holding fast to the position that they took back in 1919 at the Cedar Point (Ohio) convention of the International Bible Students Association, advocating Jehovah’s kingdom by Christ as against the proposed League of Nations for world peace and safety, such League being now succeeded by the United Nations. Their position is the one that the prophet Jeremiah himself would take today, for he gave inspired warning about a like plot against the rule of Jehovah’s royal “servant.”
(w79 11/1 p. 20 pars. 16-17, boldface added.)
So the position of complete neutrality that this video advocates is intended to prepare Jehovah’s Witnesses with the courage needed to face bigger tests when the “cry of peace and security” is sounded and the United Nations’ “plot against the rule of Jehovah’s royal “servant’” is put into effect in the “imminent future”. (I am not suggesting that their understanding of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is correct. I'm merely following the logic based on the interpretation of the Organization.)
What happens if a Witness compromises his or her neutrality? How serious would such an action be?
The elders’ manual, Shepherd the Flock of God, states:
Taking a course contrary to the neutral position of the Christian congregation. (Isa. 2:4; John 15:17-19; w99 11/1 pp. 28-29) If he joins a nonneutral organization, he has disassociated himself. If his employment makes him a clear accomplice in nonneutral activities, he should generally be allowed a period of time up to six months to make an adjustment. If he does not, he has disassociated himself.—km 9/76 pp. 3-6.
(ks p. 112 par. #3 point 4)
Based on the account of the Witnesses in Malawi, and the text of this video, joining a political party would result in one’s immediate disassociation from the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. For those not familiar with the term, it is equivalent to disfellowshipping, but with some important differences. For example, the Shepherd the Flock of God book states on the same page:
- Since disassociation is an action taken by the publisher rather than the committee, there is no arrangement for an appeal. Therefore, the announcement of disassociation can be made on the occasion of the next Service Meeting without waiting seven days. A report of the disassociation should promptly be sent to the branch office, using the appropriate forms.—See 7:33-34.
(ks p. 112 par. #5)
So, there is not even an appeal process as there is in a case of disfellowshipping. The disassociation is automatic, because it results from the individual's own willful choice.
What would happen if a Witness were to join, not just any political party, but the United Nations Organization? Is the UN exempt from the rule on neutrality? The aforementioned talk outline indicates that would not be the case based on this line following the video presentation: “The United Nations organization is a blasphemous counterfeit of God’s Kingdom.”
Very strong words indeed, yet nothing of a departure from what we’ve always been taught about the UN.
In fact, in 1991, the Watchtower had this to say about anyone affiliating themselves with the United Nations:
"8 Is there a parallel situation today? Yes, there is. The clergy of Christendom also feel that no calamity will overtake them. In effect, they say as Isaiah foretold: “We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with Sheol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves.” (Isaiah 28:15) Like ancient Jerusalem, Christendom looks to worldly alliances for security, and her clergy refuse to take refuge in Jehovah.”
"10 ...in her quest for peace and security, she insinuates herself into the favor of the political leaders of the nations—this despite the Bible’s warning that friendship with the world is enmity with God. (James 4:4) Moreover, in 1919 she strongly advocated the League of Nations as man’s best hope for peace. Since 1945 she has put her hope in the United Nations. (Compare Revelation 17:3, 11.) How extensive is her involvement with this organization?”
"11 A recent book gives an idea when it states: “No less than twenty-four Catholic organizations are represented at the UN.”
(w91 6/1 pp. 16, 17 pars. 8, 10-11 Their Refuge—A Lie! [boldface added])
The Catholic Church has special status at the UN as a non-member state permanent observer. However, when this Watchtower article condemns the Catholic Church for its 24 non-governmental organizations (NGO) that are officially represented at the UN, it is referring to highest form of association possible for non-nation entities.
From the above, we can see the position of the Organization, then and now, has been to reject any association with any political entity, even something as trivial as signing a protest or purchasing a party card in a one-party state where all citizens are required by law to do so. In fact, suffering persecution and death is viewed as preferable to compromising one’s neutrality. Furthermore, it is very clear that engaging in formal association in the United Nations—“a blasphemous counterfeit of God’s Kingdom”—means that one is making oneself into an enemy of God.
Have Jehovah’s Witnesses maintained their neutrality? Can we look at them and say that with regard to this third criteria point used to identify true worship, they have passed the test?
There can be no doubt that individually and collectively they have done so. Even today there are brothers languishing in prison who could get out simply by complying with their country’s laws regarding performing obligatory military service. We have the aforementioned historical account of our faithful brothers in Malawi. I can attest to the faith of many young American Witness men during the Vietnam War when there was still conscription. So many preferred the opprobrium of their community and even prison terms to compromising their Christian neutrality?
In the face of such historical courageous stands by so many, it is mind-boggling and frankly, grossly offensive to learn that those in the highest positions of authority within the Organization—those we are supposed to look up to as examples of faith according to Hebrews 13:7—should have so casually thrown away their cherished Christian neutrality for what amounts to a modern-day bowl of stew. (Genesis 25:29-34)
In 1991, while they were roundly condemning the Catholic Church for compromising its neutrality through its 24 NGO associates in the United Nations—i.e., getting in bed with the image of the Wild Beast of Revelation upon which sits the Great Harlot—the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses was applying for its own associate status. In 1992, it was granted a non-governmental organization association status with the United Nations Organization. This application had to be renewed annually, which it was for the next ten years, until this flagrant violation of Christian neutrality was revealed to the public by means of an article in a British newspaper.
Within days, in an obvious effort at damage control, the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses withdrew its application as UN associates.
Here is the evidence that they were UN associates during that time: 2004 Letter from UN Department of Public Information
Why did they join? Does it matter? If a married man carries on an affair for ten years, the offended wife may want to know why he cheated on her, but in the end, does it really matter? Does it make his actions any less sinful? In fact, it could make them worse if, instead of repenting “in sackcloth and ashes”, he makes vain self-serving excuses. (Matthew 11:21) His sin is compounded if the excuses turn out to be lies.
In a letter to the Stephen Bates, who wrote the UK Guardian newspaper article, the organization explained that they only became associates to access the UN library for research, but when the rules for UN association changed, they immediately withdrew their application.
Access to the library back then in the pre-911 world could be gained without the requirement of formal association. This is the same today, though the vetting process is understandably more rigorous. Apparently, this was just a desperate and transparent attempt at spin control.
Then they would have us believe that they quit when the rules for UN association changed, but the rules did not change. The rules were laid down in 1968 in the UN Charter and haven’t changed. NGOs are expected to:
- Share the principles of the UN Charter;
- Have a demonstrated interest in United Nations issues and a proven ability to reach large audiences;
- Have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes about UN activities.
Does that sound like “separate from the world” or is it “friendship with the world”?
These are the requirements the Organization agreed to when they signed up for membership; a membership that had to be renewed annually.
So they lied twice, but what if they hadn’t. Would it make any difference? Is library access justification for committing spiritual adultery with the Wild Beast of Revelation? And association with the UN is association with the UN, not matter what the rules for association may be.
What is important about these failed attempts at a cover-up is that they indicate a totally unrepentant attitude. Nowhere do we find the Governing Body expressing its sorrow for having committed what is by their own definition, spiritual adultery. In fact, they do not even admit that they did anything wrong for which to repent.
That the organization committed spiritual adultery in its ten-year affair with the Image of the Wild Beast is evident by numerous published references. Here is just one:
w67 8/1 pp. 454-455 A New Administration of Earth’s Affairs
Some of them [Christian martyrs] were, actually, literally executed with the ax for witnessing to Jesus and God, not all of them. But all of them, in order to follow in Jesus’ footsteps, must die a sacrificial death like his, that is, they must die in integrity. Some of them were martyred in various ways, but not a single one of them had worshiped the symbolic “wild beast.” the world system of politics; and since the formation of the League of Nations and the United Nations, none of them have worshiped the political “image” of the symbolic “wild beast,” They have not been marked in the head as supporters of it in thought or word, neither in the hand as being active in any way for the perpetuation of the “image.” [Compare this with the NGO requirement that the Organization agreed to support the UN Charter]
As members of the Bride they have had to keep themselves clean and without blemish or spot from the world. They have taken a course exactly opposite to Babylon the Great and her harlot daughters, the religious institutions of this world. Those “harlots” have committed spiritual fornication by meddling in politics and rendering everything to Caesar and nothing to God. (Matt. 22:21) The faithful members of the 144,000 have waited for God’s kingdom to be established and let it minister earth’s affairs.—Jas. 1:27; 2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:25-27.
Apparently, the Governing Body has done the very thing it accuses Babylon the Great and her harlot daughters of doing: Committing spiritual fornication with the rulers of the world who are represented by the Image of the Wild Beast, the UN.
Revelation 14:1-5 refers to the 144,000 anointed children of God as virgins. They are a chaste Bride of Christ. It would seem that the leadership of the Organization can no longer claim spiritual virginity before its husbandly owner, Jesus Christ. They have slept with the enemy!
For those who want to see all the evidence in detail and examine it carefully, I would recommend you go to jwfacts.com and click on the link United Nations NGO. Everything you need to know is there. You will find links to the United Nations information site and to the correspondence between the Guardian correspondent and the Watchtower representative that will corroborate everything I have written here.
In Summary
The initial purpose of this article and its associated video was to examine whether Jehovah’s Witnesses meet the criteria they have laid down for the true Christian religion of maintaining oneself separate from the world. As a people, we can say that history proves that Jehovah’s Witnesses have done just that. But here we are not speaking about the individuals. When we look at the Organization as a whole, it is represented by its leadership. There, we find quite another picture. While under no pressure whatsoever to compromise, they went out of their way to sign up for UN association, keeping it secret from the worldwide brotherhood. So do Jehovah’s Witnesses pass this criteria test? As a collection of individuals, we can grant them a conditional “Yes”; but as an Organization, an emphatic “No”.
The reason for the conditional “yes” is that we have to see how the individuals act once they learn of their leaders’ actions. It has been said that “silence grants consent”. Whatever position individual witnesses may have stood for, it can all be undone if they remain mute in the face of sin. If we say nothing and do nothing, then are we approving of the sin by helping to cover it up, or at the very least, tolerating the wrongdoing. Would Jesus not see this as apathy? We know how he views apathy. He condemned the congregation of Sardis for it. (Revelation 3:1)
When the young Israelite men were committing fornication with the daughters of Moab, Jehovah brought a scourge upon them resulting in the death of thousands. What caused Him to stop? It was one man, Phinehas, who stepped up and did something. (Numbers 25:6-11) Did Jehovah disapprove of Phinehas’ action? Did he say, “It is not your place. Moses or Aaron should be the ones acting!" Not at all. He approved of Phinehas' zealous initiative for upholding righteousness.
We often hear brothers and sisters excuse away the wrongdoing that goes on in the Organization by saying, “We should just wait on Jehovah”. Well, maybe Jehovah is waiting on us. Maybe he’s waiting for us to take a stand for truth and justice. Why should we remain silent when we see wrongdoing? Does that not make us complicit? Do we keep silent out of fear? That is not something which Jehovah will bless.
“But as for the cowards and those without faith…their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur.” (Revelation 21:8)
When you read through the Gospels, you find that the key condemnation that Jesus spoke against the leaders of his day was that of hypocrisy. Time and again, he called them hypocrites, even comparing them to whitewashed graves—bright, white, and clean on the outside, but inside, full of putrefaction. Their problem wasn’t false doctrine. True, they did add to the word of God by accumulating many rules, but their real sin was saying one thing and doing another. (Matthew 23:3) They were hypocrites.
One has to wonder what went through the mind of those who walked into the UN to fill out that form, knowing full well that brothers and sisters had been beaten, raped, and even killed for not compromising their integrity by simply buying a membership card from the ruling political party of Malawi. How they have dishonored the legacy of those faithful Christians who even under the worst of circumstances would not compromise; while these men who exalt themselves above all others, blithely join and support an organization they have always condemned and even now continue to condemn, as if there were nothing to it.
You may say, “Well, that’s terrible, but what can I do about it?”
When Russia seized the property of Jehovah’s Witnesses, what did the Governing Body ask you to do? Did they not engage in a worldwide letter-writing campaign in protest? Now the shoe is on the other foot.
Here is a link to a plain text document which you can copy and paste into your favorite editor. It is a Petition on JW.org UN Membership. (For a German language copy, click here.)
Add your name and date of baptism. If you feel like modifying it, go right ahead. Make it your own. Stick it in an envelope, address it and mail it. Do not be afraid. Have courage just as this year's Regional Convention exhorts us to. You’re not doing anything wrong. In fact, ironically, you are obeying the direction of the Governing Body who have always directed us to report sin when we see it so as not to become a sharer in the sin of others.
Additionally, the organization says that if someone joins a non-neutral organization, they have disassociated themselves. Essentially, association with an enemy of God implies disassociation with God. Well, these four Governing Body members were appointed during the 10-year period in which the UN association was annually renewed:
- Gerrit Lösch (1994)
- Samuel F. Herd (1999)
- Mark Stephen Lett (1999)
- David H. Splane (1999)
Out of their own mouths and by their own rules, we can rightly say that they have disassociated themselves from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. So why are they still in positions of authority?
This is an intolerable state of affairs for a religion that claims to be God’s only channel of communication. When the churches of Christendom have engaged in sinful actions, are we to assume that Jehovah doesn’t care because he did nothing to fix it? Not at all. The historical pattern is that Jehovah sends faithful servants to correct those that are his. He sent his own son to correct the leaders of the Jewish nation. They did not accept his correction and as a result they were destroyed. But first he gave them a chance. Should we do any different? If we know what is right, then should we not act as the faithful servants of old acted; men like Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel?
James said: “Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” (James 4:17)
Maybe some in the Organization will come after us. They did come after Jesus. But won’t that reveal their true heart condition? In writing the letter, we are not dissenting with any teaching of the Governing Body. In fact, we are complying with their teaching. We are told to report a sin if we see one. We are doing that. We are told that a person who joins a non-neutral entity is disassociated. We are merely asking that that rule be applied. Are we causing division? How could we be? We are not the ones who are committing spiritual fornication with the enemy.
Do I think that writing a letter campaign will make a lick of difference? Jehovah knew that sending his son but not results in the conversion of the nation, and yet he did it anyways. Nevertheless, we do not have the foresight Jehovah has. We cannot know what will result from our actions. All we can do is try to do what is right and what is loving. If we do that, then whether we are persecuted for it or not will not matter. What matters is that we will be able to look back and say that we are free from the blood of all men, because we spoke up when it was called for, and did not hold back from doing what was right and from speaking truth to power.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Devora on 2018-06-01 21:00:08
Eric,So Thankful for this,a Most well-done expose´.
Yes I am going to sign/send the Petition.
I do not fear,anymore.
Taking the Christian stand.
This Petition is the most thorough;well-thought out/outlined;spiritually-
prioritised Declaration..
It's almost made tears,in it's reasonings..touching
my senses of spiritual integrity; trustworthiness,openness, godliness,fairness..from those who appeared/appear (in their own eyes)as lofty,pure and clean??
I think of the counsel to the first Christians,"for the things that take place in secret it is shameful even to relate...rather,even be reproving them"(from within)..& counsel, to"repudiate ungodliness".
O,This'hand-in-hand'along with Babylon the great,for 10!'secret'years,and with the 100% brazen audacity
to condemn..while in the same U.N.bed..DISGUSTING.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-01 21:57:34
Two thumbs up!
Comment by lost in space on 2018-06-01 22:20:51
Excellent, thorough, truthful work Eric. Appreciated and a call to righteous action. A request for a proper reply to the petition directly to the petitioner would be appropriate. Accountability regarding the NGO embroil in UN is long overdue. The spiritual harlotry abhorrent. Thank you for seeking proper repentance and ownership by the leadership of the Org. Finally..hope that someone receives a reply.
Comment by samisaac on 2018-06-02 02:38:16
“We should just wait on Jehovah”. Well, maybe Jehovah is waiting on us. Maybe he’s waiting for us to take a stand for truth and justice. Why should we remain silent when we see wrongdoing? Does that not make us complicit? Do we keep silent out of fear? That is not something which Jehovah will bless.”
These words went straight to my heart. I am thinking about mailing that petition. I have heard the excuse ”being an ngo isn’t exactly membership, you’re simply registered your interest, you don’t become affiliated with the Un...” I feel something isn’t right about that argument but can’t put my finger on it... anyone got a good answer?
Thanks Eric and the others who help with this siteReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-02 08:48:48
Good question, Samisaac. The Bible doesn't speak of neutrality per se, but it does give us principles that guide us as to what it means in the modern world. It speaks of friendship with the world. I have many friends. Membership is not involved in friendship. But association is. I associate with my friends. There's a saying, "Show me who your friends are and I'll show you who you are." By associating with the UN formally and accepting the requirements for that association--specifically, promoting UN interests around the globe--the WTBTS became a friend of the world, which means they also became an enemy of God. That's the Bible principle that is involved here.
By their own publications they condemn the UN as a counterfeit to God's kingdom and an enemy of God. Why then would they want to "promote its interests"? They will try to weasel out of it by playing with words, but the fact is that they got into bed with those they acknowledge are enemies of the betrothed, Jesus Christ.Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-02 08:58:17
Yeah totally agree. The problem is, had I known this 2005 when I got baptized I would never have gotten baptized in association with this org. It’s too bad it can’t be undone. But still it would feel more honest to tell new ones about mistakes such as 1975 and other years, Un association as Ngo etc. I think it would make a good impression on people to be honest and say sorry, rather than the current method, to never admit to being wrong. It’s like it’s seen as a weakness. I used to think only ”worldly” leaders were like this? Not ”Gods only channel of communication”.
Comment by Kim on 2018-06-02 02:55:25
There is possibly some problems with the use of the word 'member'. No NGO's can be members of the UN.
The Catholic Church holds a unique position with the UN that no other religion holds. The Holy See has officially been a non-member state permanent observer in the United Nations since 1964. It seems that they were given this position due to the Holy See being considered a State in relation to the Vatican City. Their position provides them with the opportunity of influencing decisions.
The closest relationship possible for all other religions is that of being associated with the United Nations. This is because they are considered to be Non Governmental Organizations. In order for the UN to accept this relationship, NGO's agree to comply with certain requirements set out by the UN.
The Watchtowers application was to be accepted as an NGO associated with the UN, not as a member. I guess it's a fine line to state that the Watchtower was a member of the UN but because the UN specifically states that no NGO can become a member, it's a very touchy point to state when talking or writing to a JW. Strictly speaking, the Watchtower was associated with the UN. They made the application and agreed to accept the UN's requirements.Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-02 03:32:38
Thanks, I guess this is what makes it a bit convoluted, but even if it’s a fine line and each ones conscience is different, I think most would agree that it’s a form of association and that the Un can put certain amount of requirements on Ngos in order for them to stay as Ngos... sorry I’m no expert in this field. But as a baptized witness for a long time, I feel it would make a good impression if they were open with all their mistakes, like many bible writers and god’s people in ancient times. I wasn’t baptized at that time, and only 4 yrs old 1991, but it would be a good idea to tell everybody at some convention or so ”we are going to apply for status as an ngo with the un, we hope this doesn’t make anyone stumble”... or something like that. At the moment I feel a bit hurt that they hide this information from us, like we couldn’t handle it. It would be different with a more transparent approach.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-02 08:40:20
Thank you so much for clarifying this, Kim.
We want to be as accurate as we can. I've modified the text of the article accordingly. Unfortunately, that's not so easy to do with a video, so I'll be releasing an addendum to it to correct the inaccuracy. Your right that it is a fine line, at least as regards the rules on neutrality laid down by the organization. A brother would get chucked out of the congregation for, say, putting a sign on his lawn to promote a political candidate. It would be viewed as "touching the unclean thing." And Babylon the Great isn't a member in the political entities she sleeps with, but here association condemns her.
Again, thank you for keeping me on my toes.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-06-02 10:33:13
So in other words, a group of men (WTBTS) associated with the UN, therefore committed spiritual adultery. I wonder what they were really after, if it wasn't just to be able to have access to the UN library? What do you think their real goal was Meleti? Do you think they had some hidden agenda other than the library? Perhaps they needed to join to acquire some land somewhere? Whatever the case, I'm sure it was for fleshly corporate gain!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-02 11:02:05
I'm quite sure that library access was just a cover for something else, but what I cannot say. They didn't need to become an NGO associate to gain library access, so either they are collectively very stupid and will give up their "birthright" for a metaphorical bowl of stew, or there is something else going on they cannot tell us about.
Actually the allusion to Jacob and Esau isn't strictly accurate because Esau didn't have a bowl of stew so he did get something for his birthright. It's not like he had a bowl of stew beside him that he could eat at any time, but gave up his birthright for Jacob's bowl of stew. However, the GB compromised their neutrality for something they could have gotten without doing so.
Like I said, either they are stupid, or they had a hidden agenda, one that would make them look even worse were they to reveal it.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-03 00:59:06
It seems pretty clear that WT did this for a very good reason. They wanted political leverage to negotiate with other governments about policy and legislation, in ways that they could not accomplish through the courts. If WT believed a country was 'breaking a law' they could send in their army of lawyers to try to fix it. But if they wanted any other sort of change, and the country wasn't actually breaking any laws, you couldn't sue a country to change their laws just because you don't like them. Only elected legislators can make changes like that. That is where WT wanted government access. Suppose they wanted or needed changes to some regulations that would reduce expenses for printing or shipping literature. You can't sue a country for that. But you could "lobby" government officials, if you had access to them.
Assuming that is what is happening, it is totally 100% a case of interfering in the political system to gain favors. Exactly the sort of thing they constantly ragged on the Catholic Church for doing.Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-03 10:41:37
That's a good explanation Robert, and rings true in my ears.
Comment by Lucija on 2018-06-02 11:35:04
Dear Meleti,
this is an interesting article. Of course, a lot of material can be found on the Internet about WTBTS and UN.
But also it would be interesting to talk about more regarding connection of WTBTS and OSCE: Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
JW representatives routinely attend conferences of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe). During these conferences Jehovah's Witnesses sit together with government officials and representatives from other religions (such as Scientology) to discuss government policy on religious issues. As recently as April 2016 Jehovah's Witnesses participated with other religions and political entities in the OSCE.
The goals of the OSCE are political, running contrary to principles the Watchtower prints in its magazines. These include:
- Legislative reviews for governments, on request, to help them bring their legislation into line with international standards;
- Publishing Guidelines for Review of Legislation Pertaining to Religion or Belief, which were drafted by members of the Panel of Experts in association with the Council of Europe's Venice Commission;
- Development of new legislation intended to foster improved relations among religious groups, including in post-conflict societies;
- Promoting dialogue between governments and religious groups, as called for in OSCE commitments. (osce.org/odihr/20056.html 25th Apr 2010)
“With 56 States from Europe, Central Asia and North America, the OSCE is the world's largest regional security organization. It offers a forum for political negotiations and decision-making in the fields of early warning, conflict prevention, crisis management and post-conflict rehabilitation, and puts the political will of its participating States into practice through its unique network of field missions.
“The OSCE has a comprehensive approach to security that encompasses politico-military, economic and environmental, and human aspects.” (osce.org/who 6th Oct 2012)
The OSCE is closely aligned with the United Nations.
"The OSCE recognizes that the United Nations Security Council bears primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. Thus, the United Nations is the OSCE's primary partner organization." (osce.org/ec/43240)
Sending Watchtower representatives for attendance at these events show a different set of standards apply to the leaders as opposed to Watchtower followers.
Few links as a proof is attached here:
Statement by the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia
https://www.osce.org/odihr/27068
http://perimeno.ca/Letters_1107_OSCE.htm
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/politics.phpReply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-02 23:58:47
Thanks for that info Lucija! These guys are so drunk from the wine of the Great Whore it's ridiculous anymore. They used to be able to hide their drunkenness, but now they are not holding their own very well, they are at the falling down drunk stage from the cup of wrath at this point (Re 18:3).
Pretty cool name Lucija! A lot of people here may debate this, but Lucifer was/is an Archangel according to some, what are your thoughts about it?
Reply by James on 2018-06-04 05:51:39
Could this be the basis for OSCE letter of May 10,2018 to Russia with respect to Jw status?
https://www.osce.org/permanent-council/381820?download=trueReply by Lucija on 2018-06-06 18:26:06
Definitely yes. But there is a lot more material regarding this topic. This is only the last one.
For example, there are several others:
- from 2016
https://www.osce.org/odihr/268401?download=true
- from 2010
https://www.osce.org/home/71569
Interesting are answers provided on Quora in regard to JW-OSCE:
https://www.quora.com/Do-Jehovahs-Witnesses-cooperate-with-other-denominations-or-religions-in-any-way
Here is more info on this
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/239341/jws-attending-osce-meeting-warsaw-non-governmental-organization-ngo-giving-presentations
I strongly believe that a concise article should be put here as a history reference about relations between WTBTS and OSCE, as some JW's really do not understand (probably are even not thinking about it) why this is so wrong.
OSCE is directly connected to UN, and by its own words:
“The OSCE recognizes that the United Nations Security Council bears primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. Thus, the United Nations is the OSCE’s primary partner organization.” (osce.org/ec/43240)
Isn't this interesting?
Reply by mark on 2018-06-07 14:29:29
WOW!!! This is very interesting material.. This is why they tell their members not to go looking for answers on the rest of the internet but just on their site. They are keeping all these things hidden from their members..... Thanks for Sharing Lucija
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-02 12:26:03
Hi Eric, thanks for a fine article. Having written a few times in the last year, with only one reply, all I hope is that the address is correct, as it is not the same as in the Watchtower, which shows 1000 Red Mills Road.
Of course, it is possible that someone might have put my letters in the filing bin next to their desk, but they would not do that, would they ?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-02 23:09:48
I originally drafted the letter with the 1000 Red Mills Road address, but changed it when I saw a very recent letter to the bodies of elders with the other address on it. I conclude that 1000 Red Mills Road is the address for general correspondence, but we want the one the elders use when writing in.
Comment by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-02 16:20:57
Hello Eric,
I have a contrarian view on your article. I don't disagree with it per se, but hear me out.
You noted, "We could examine other doctrines, but that might seem like beating a dead horse. Given the importance of the doctrines already considered, there is no need to go further to prove the point." Precisely.
I would by no means discourage you from fleshing out the remainder of this planned series. Long-time readers of this forum already know the conclusion you will reach, namely, a full exposition of what true Christianity is, and how WT fails to live up either to the Bible's standards or its own purported criteria for it. Honesty compels us to recognize that the 'horse is dead already', and other than the gleeful satisfaction of giving the old nag a few more licks for good measure, it's over. Time to stick a fork in WT; they're done.
Still, it is a worthy exercise, one I happen to look forward to.
But, I must ask you, to what end? For instance, you are proposing that readers of your forum download your petition letter and mail it in. Those who are still "in" and identify themselves are asking for a one-way ticket to a DF. Those who are "in" but don't identify themselves can be freely ignored by WT, the same as anyone clearly taking a position as an opposer of WT.
Truly, sincerely, without the slightest animosity to your intentions as such, what do you hope to accomplish? The only people that will send in this petition are readers of your forum. How many is that? A few hundred? If we are generous, a few thousand? And whatever percentage of response you get, it will be a drop in the bucket to them. And, WT cannot possibly reply honestly, because that would provide evidence that they are in the wrong, and 5 seconds after receiving the reply it will go online. WT knows that. They will not reply to even a single one of these petitions, for several good reasons: (1) they don't need to, (2) they don't want to, (3) they don't have to, (4) they can't, and (5) if the person identifies themselves as an active JW and can be found, the "reply" will be the formation of a JC to unceremoniously eject said petitioner. I am sincerely sorry if the truth hurts (and, it does) but those are the ugly facts. Anyone brave enough to risk that outcome is certainly to be commended, but we must be realistic.
More to the point, however, the question of "to what end" bears a closer, more serious look. Why? As noted above, your in-depth analysis of WT has shown, and will show, it is not the "true" religion. What, then, is the purpose of the petition? To "reform" WT?
I must ask you, does Revelation tell us to "reform" Babylon the Great - or get out of it? It is fair to say that most readers of this forum have concluded that WT is not only a false religion but is indeed part of Babylon the Great.
I believe the biggest of all questions for JWs having issues with the WT, as do the majority of readers of this forum, is this: Is WT "them", or is it "us"? If you believe WT is "us" then at least there is some rationale for reforming it or "saving" it, because you believe there is some good in it, and you care for it. Or, for some people, WT is "us" because they are consumed by fear and feel powerless to leave, just like prisoners of war. However, if WT is "them", you have already said your goodbyes, and it's time to move on. So, which is it? Us? or Them?
Tell me, would you also advocate sending petition letters to the Vatican, or to the headquarters of any other religion, asking THEM to reform some aspect of their behavior? If not, why do so for WT?
What's the use? What purpose is served?
Since your proposal to have your readers respond to this suggestion and actually send in a petition could adversely affect them, don't you owe it to them to spell out and justify the purpose for doing this? I kind of think you do.
I am not asking this question to cause discord or animosity. It is only fair that your readers understand both what is being asked of them, and what you hope to gain from it.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-03 11:20:27
Good to see balanced reasoning from you, Robert, and Brain. We need to have a cool head on us in these matters. Having said that, if the weight of letters on one subject gets through to WT HQ, at least we will have done what we could. If an apology ever came, history tells us that it would be so disguised that few would realise that that is what it is.
Time will tell.Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-03 15:59:45
Hm the 1975 ”apology”, anyone? Not that I was born then but anyway.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-03 17:34:27
You should scroll down a little and find Eric's mention of a video about Worldwide church of God. The parallels between them and WT are remarkable. They banned Christmas and birthdays, rejected the trinity, felt that much of the OT applied to Christians, and also believed Revelation prophesized about our day, tried to assign modern roles for the 10 horned beast, etc., believed its leader was speaking God's words through him, thought they had the only true religion in the world, and, get this, believed Christ was coming in 1975.
There are people who think WWCG copied JW doctrines directly, along with stuff from Mormons and SDA's.
At least WWCG apologized for being wrong. Too bad they picked up mainstream religious views that were different but equally wrong.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-02 23:23:37
Good point Robert. I will get to the other doctrines in time. I just didn't want to drag out this series without getting to the conclusion. After that is behind me, we'll get into other aspects of the teachings that are unique to JWs.
I truly hope that people who view the videos on YouTube will share them with other JW groups, as well as on facebook and other social media. If that happens, we could see a groundswell of attention. I don't expect to see any change in JW policy, however. Still, I feel this must be done for the reasons stated in the video, and I'm interested to see where it might lead.
Your point five is very likely, but that is part of the work of true Christians. We work with the spirit. The vessels of wrath will reveal their true nature, but the vessels of mercy get refined.
I don't expect to reform the WT. I'm interested in revealing heart conditions and giving all of us the chance to stand up and be counted. We are breaking away from a cult mentality, so passivity does not serve us well.
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven." (Mt 10:32)
You seem to be focusing on me. But please realize that there is both "us" and "them". You and I may have moved on, but many have not. Now let's say the unthinkable happens and the Governing Body do something radical like the Worldwide Church of God did. The problem is that even admitting they were wrong would not solve the fundamental problem that organized religion will always end up being a snare and a racket. So not, I'm not hoping nor expecting to reform them. The only way to reform the organization would be to dissolve it entirely and decentralize control into the hands of the members of each independent congregation group.
I don't think you're giving our readers their just due. These are not stupid nor naive people. Some will send in a letter with an alias, others will use the full name. But they know what is being suggested and what it could me.
Robert, you seem to always take a contrarian position. Why is that?Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-03 00:51:04
Me? Always contrarian? No I'm not. (irony)
My focus was not primarily on you, only to the extent that you wrote the article, not in any other way. The question of "us" or "them" is something every JW or ex JW has to answer, not just you or me.
I concur that petitions will not change WT policies. But, I do see that WT is not a giant monolith, but is staffed by individuals, some of whom may be tasked with reading these petitions and other letters that challenge them and take them to task for one reason or another. No, the organization won't change, but maybe some clerical servant at HQ might have a change of heart. Who knows; it could happen. So, no, I am not totally cynical about the effort.
I would offer a caution. For individuals wishing to send a petition but NOT reveal who they are, I would strongly urge such persons to NOT send a petition that is even vaguely a word-for-word copy of the sample. There is software that can perform "plagiarism detection". It seems fairly certain WT reads this site. They may be able to do 'forensic analysis' of letters sent in to detect patterns. I am not sure how devious they are, but I wouldn't put it past them. The advice I would give is to phrase it your own words as much as possible.
P.S. I am not familiar with the Worldwide Church of God. What did they do that you mention above?Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-03 03:11:08
I, for one have no hope of a reform. But I think some, me included would like for the org to be a bit watered down, offering an easier way out or at least not interfering with their personal lives anymore. I’m not strong enough emotionally, being very susceptible to getting depressions and anxiety.
Not ready at the moment to get all friends and family to shun me, being completely alone.
For some people if the org would change, even one tiny bit, it would make all the difference in allowing them to live a decent life without big brother wt controlling them so much. One can dream right?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-03 08:06:39
This documentary explains the shakeup in the Worldwide Church of God. Briefly, following the death of their founder, the elders of the church (their governing body) reexamined their key unique doctrines in the light of scripture, realized they were wrong and had been misleading their flock, issued a public apology, and changed the doctrine. I cannot see the JW GB doing such a thing however.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-03 11:44:37
I am almost done viewing the documentary, its a bit long. I am intrigued that the WWCG decided to research all their doctrines using only the Bible, and in doing so, they decided that the trinity was true. I would be interested in your take on that aspect of it.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-03 13:29:10
I lack the data to comment intelligently on that. However, I do konw that for most Christians, the Trinity is the make or break doctrine. You can disbelieve hellfire, or the immortal soul, and they'll still consider you a Christian, but disbelieve the trinity and you are not Christian.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-03 13:37:09
Sure sounds like a topic worth pursuing. Does everyone on the BP forum assume that the basic doctrines of WT are correct? Maybe the answer isn't so simple. For instance, I thought WT was right about the cross, but I have serious doubts now. Not that people should worship a cross, but the idea Jesus died on a stake and nothing else, well, I think is poorly substantiated by the evidence both biblical and historical. So, are there holes in the WT anti-trinity doctrine too? I don't know, but a real close look would be real interesting.
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-03 16:24:37
Rob, my current beliefs re Wt teachings or policies are:
1914 (and other related years in wt teachings): do not agree
Billions will die at armageddon: do not agree
No blood doctrine: agree to some extent, although I think it should be a conscience matter
Shunning of former members, da’s:
Should be up to the individuals conscience
Preaching: natural for christians to talk about their faith and make disciples but how it’s done should not be regulated
Anti trinity: agree, but of course the son is united in the purpose and surely have similar personalities
Anti evolution: agree, although I agree with some basic parts of the ev theory
Not all christians are anointed: unsure, possibly do not agree, need to research more
No eternal suffering in hell: agree
Need for an organisation and governing body to interpret scripture: do not agree
Of course there are more but my current stance in some areas. Sorry for long post
Reply by Alithia on 2018-06-03 20:31:23
Hello Robert and all others, I agree to a point Rob, but I must say from my perspective I think what this site has achieved and is continuing to do is a very valuable service.
Others who are still in and are considering their options, possibly fully withdrawing their support from the organisation need to know there are other trusted people who still love Jehovah and have implicit trust and faith in Gods word who have made the break. And they need to know why in a constructive, coherent and detail manner that can convince them and also importantly give them the information to explain themselves to other's if not only to themselves.
There are other sites that have similar information but are atheistic based or are aligned to very virulent anti God views that I would hesitate to refer people too. I can say to others with confidence to visit this site for information that de-bunks JW beliefs without worrying that they may be influenced by atheists, or just by the general garden variety intellectual crazies!
And this at a very vulnerable point in peoples lives where they need quality info to decide on what they want to do going forward. I for one agree with the series Eric is working on and I hope he continues.
Also for some giving the "bully" a kick in the shins empowers them if they have been in a state of oppressive subservience for a long time as many have been. Questioning or contradicting the GB has been taboo for some for decades and doing so, or seeing others doing so in a loving, intelligent and scriptural manner is also empowering and an incentive for them to start exercising their own critical thinking processes again.Reply by Devora on 2018-06-04 09:34:37
Thank you Alithia.Well said.
On here,
Re/the org,so many here have been bullied+,by those we truly believed were friends(after all,we were told"we're in a spiritual paradise now!
You can trust"..etc).
So..to identify a 'false friend';yet in Christian concern,point out their
deviant course;hoping your words/actions will'wake them up'is a responsible thing to do I believe.And loving.
Also..now that I thoroughly researched the U.N./European'secret' Alliances,"how"
I'm going to use the Petition is broader:about 2 weeks before the area's Conventions,I plan on mailing it-with a typed small prelude
with appeals,using nearly all just Scriptures-
to as many good Souls(from all #/halls I was in,as I have many addresses),
as I can..to 50?60..70/more?..this will include some elders who I remember are not 100%
'company men'.
Trying to wake up as many as possible.
And,I remember(too well)the numbing,fear-based,passive'inertia'-developed from the mental/emotional'conditioning'within the org;a'learned helplessness'comes from the constant drilling of someone's-else's Mantras:
You WILL become as us(or out!);
WE(as in a recent wt study)are THE source(!).
The steady losses of Self-as ultimately,
unable to care/act in true Christian ways,are
hard to rebuild..But can,are able to Regain!
In that spiritual regrowth comes the real,true Person...Jah and Christ saw all along.
Much Love,D.
Reply by James on 2018-06-04 06:13:06
I doubt if WT will respond to any of this petition, as a seal have been placed on this issue. I saw a copy of WT letter to all Branch Committees as a default response on this issue.The letter is bland, no reason is to be given to any inquirer,just like the announcement normally made by elders "the issue concerning so and so has been handled", no further comment. So no Branch can go beyond this letter, and the current GB will use that letter as an issue not to be revisited.
In a letter to an inquiry when the issue was trending, they admitted that 'if it is an issue of not doing proper checks occasionally, nobody is beyond that, even in the HQ, and they are glad it was brought to their notice'.
I would have posted the two letters from WT here but I am not familiar with copyright implications.
Eric and all, I appreciate the comments and posts.
Love you all.
From James, (not the brother of Our Lord, neither the disciple), but a sharer with you all in the undeserved kindness (grace) of our Lord Jesus ChristReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 09:38:11
Thanks for that information, James.
Reply by Alithia on 2018-06-04 07:34:41
Hi Robo, just another thought, regarding your nag/dead horse proposition, if you lived in the first Century you may have found yourself saying the same thing to the Apostle Paul. Many decades after Jesus had been crucified and resurrected Paul was still trying to appeal to Jewish and Gentiles Christians to make a point about the New Covenant/Christianity by making numerous references back to the Mosaic Law and Jewish traditions. I am sure Paul would have loved to "stick a fork into it", but due to the circumstances thought otherwise and so he talked a lot about the old nag! Try and wade through Romans, Galatians and Hebrews as an exercise and see how many flicks he gives the old nag !!!!!!Perhaps as others may see it, due to the circumstances, and the need, for many who are coming onsite for the first time, it is not the due time to "stick the fork in"just yet! But I get what you are saying just the same! I would love to go camping with a guy like you (and with a couple of whiskey bottles) and chew the fat around the camp fire, I don't think it would be boring that's for sure.
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-04 07:43:25
Thanks Alithia, didn’t think about it that way
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-06-03 10:34:14
Very good point Brain, we are all friends with the world in some fashion or another, unless you're living under a rock somewhere. As far as attacking or exposing the brothers and sisters you have another good point, it's not them that need it, it's the Corporation that does.
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-03 13:32:10
Ifionlyhadabrain you raise a good point. It might happen gradually but hopefully we will move on from only talking about Jw doctrines altogether on this site and bringing forth the truth of the Bible only. If we want to win over people we need to be loving and compassionate like our leader Christ. I feel it can be dangerous if we drag on to long about how wrong and bad others are and how right and good and righteous we are. I don’t say this to correct people, I just want to do a reality check if this is a temporary phase, talking mainly about what’s wrong about someone elses belief. I don’t want us to be all puffed up with pride like it’s happened with many other religions (not that we’re an organized religion but maybe you get my point).
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 09:35:14
Samisaac, you make a good point. However, since there are people at various stages of awakening, we need to keep this site as is, but for those who have moved past the initial phase of cult-think deprogramming, we need something more. It was with that in mind that I created beroeans.study. However, due to time constraints, I have not been able to give it the attention needed. It is my hope that once this latest series of videos is finished, and with the excellent support from Tadua and others to keep the articles going here, we can move on to the work of providing for those who have moved beyond the anger and dismay of the awakening process and now desire something more.
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-04 11:04:21
Thanks Eric, after reading through some other comments similar to yours I surely realize the need to have this tool for breaking down false doctrine. It is great to hear that maybe some of the ”staff” can move on to more non-Jw oriented material focusing on the Bible mainly. I will support you as good as I can in this cause.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 12:44:49
Thanks SamIsaac.
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-04 11:12:25
Also I have to say I really appreciated the beroeans.study site and am very glad that you plan to bring it back when you have time. Thanks for all your efforts and also thanks to our Father and his dear son for using you
Reply by Devora on 2018-06-04 11:18:14
Eric,Yes,
it is So.
In moving on(in small degrees;for years),I'm almost-there;recovered..the "active"Anger(although-understandable)with PTSD,is lessening.. & progressing on-to that same place:one of peace and desire to grow into all the provisions for Life
in Christ..and upbuilding one another..that is already on your Site's other-half.
So very grateful for our household of faith,in all of this..all the keenly insightful,true and helpful scriptural points,"with your own!!powers of reasoning".
I hope to continue to point others also to that..but not to push.
Each is progressing at their own pace.
& whatever-condition anyone here is at..
no fear..
Ephesians 3:16-19.
Reply by mark on 2018-06-03 22:44:31
I'm not sure you read the name of this website? I'm sure it says JW.org Reviewer. I'm new to this site and Eric's videos and writings are what I expect to see on this site. Thank you Eric and other writers.
If I go to Toys R Us, I would expect to see toys. Get my point?Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-03 23:17:35
Not in the U.S, you won't, they closed down. Get my point?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 09:30:22
Psalmbee, that was uncalled for and provocative.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-04 23:32:01
Go ahead and take it down Meleti, you are right, it was a quick provoked response by me, mainly because I felt insulted and didn't like the tone Mark had towards Brain. It's over now let's move on.
I apologize to any that took offence. (Mt 18:7)
PsalmbeeReply by mark on 2018-06-06 15:30:07
Hi Psalmbee I'm not sure how I insulted you or why you didn't like my tone. I didn't use any capitals, funny symbols, italics, bold letters. Unless you can see me, I didn't have any tone to my comment. My comment wasn't meant to insult anyone or to make anyone take offence. I was just trying to convey my idea... Maybe my grammar was not as good as it should have been.. Please try to have some peace and understanding that I'm not here to attack anyone. Peace and Love Mark
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-06 16:51:17
I can't take it down without removing all the related comments which wouldn't make sense out of context. I think we're all mature enough and more important Christian enough to overlook such things. If love covers a multitude of sins, how much more so the odd slip of the tongue which none of us can fully tame. (James 3:8)
Love to all.
Comment by LaRhonda T. on 2018-06-03 19:11:32
I'm actually betwixt and between. On the one hand, yeah, maybe a letter would 'wake someone up' even if only one person, on the other hand, I don't want to seem uncaring, but I doubt seriously if letters are going to make one bit of difference to the leaders of Watchtower. I think they will just use these letters to justify coming down even harder on the rank & file JW's who remain. It puts me in mind of a sister I use to know, who would forever get in our supervisors face at work in an attempt to 'witness' to her; it got so bad until our supervisor threatened to write her up for preaching on company time. (One of the largest school districts in California) The sister's response was, " She's a goat, she doesn't like Jehovah's Witnesses"! I, of course, being the possessor of an extremely smart mouth couldn't contain myself and told her, "No. YOU are annoying. I've had many wonderful conversations with Mrs.__________ during lunch break, and before and after work. Maybe you need to stop harassing folks and pushing magazines on them". Needless to say, I was not that sister's favorite person. It seems to me that often JW's go out of their way to be as annoying to non-witnesses as possible and then when they are 'called on it', they jump into "persecution because I'm a Witness" mode. If I do decide to send a letter, I'll use an alias, my sister is still in; she and I have an unspoken understanding; she doesn't ask me any questions and I don't offer any information, but I believe she knows that I no longer to ascribe to JW doctrine. Matter, if I had to give an answer as to my faith, I'd simply say I'm a follower of Christ, trying to do the very best I can. Have a great evening everyone, love ya!
RhondaReply by Alithia on 2018-06-03 19:20:54
I agree in many respects with some of the things you say LaRhonda, there is a time and place for everything, sometimes the only "bible" people will read or the best witness we will ever give is our living an exemplary quiet Christian life. Often this causes others to ask about us and the reasons why we act they way we do, the results have far greater impact than from overtly harassing others about our beliefs.
Comment by lazarus on 2018-06-03 19:25:20
Thanks Meleti,
The UN Saga, nice write up. Sorry I hope I’m not doubling up on points already made.
Looked at JW Facts- hoping to get both sides of the story for a fair comment. I would like to see the original paperwork signed off on. Anyway.
So trying to read through the societies arguments of innocence. It was a library Card, no signature was required and they never renewed the association with the UN’s Library department.
I’m assuming the UN would of had a process for organisations join as a ngo as an associate. With Documents of all kinds and a signature somewhere. The other point the society makes is that, they realised that the revised document of association had language that said NGOs would support the UN etc. they immediately withdrew their association in 2001 or 2002.
Ok This is a good move. But it is also coincidental to the same time as it became public. For arguments sake, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. Have they in time come to see the gravity of this situation.
Have they owned up to the mistakes that have made from the very start? Can I be an associate of YMCA to use the gym. Would a JW walk in to a RSL club to eat a meal! I heard in two public talks just recently how other brothers and sisters would view our personal Christian Neutrality if we sat and dined at the local food court of the local Casino.
So This was a big mistake. Whatever happens Christ will judge the Society(GB). I believe each will do what his resolved in his heart to do. Wether to write in or not.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-06-03 21:35:03
1989, Translation services department established.
1989, Amicus Curiae filed with the Court on behalf of Jimmy Swaggart
1990, WT stopped asking for a set price of donations for their literature.
1992, WT became associated with the UN.
1993, WT released the Proclaimers book, with no mention of their involvement with UN.
1997? WT releases the Revelation book portraying the UN as the wild beast and Great harlot.
1999-2001, Complete restructure of the WTBTS.
2001, WT withdraws it's association with UN.
What are these guys up to? Whatever it is, it is not looking good!Reply by JackSprat on 2018-06-05 02:19:26
Psalmbee you forgot 1980 WT did not recommend involving caesars law and report child abuse to the authorities
And some in high positions in the borganization have been disfellowshipped for sexual sins including wife swapping and homosexuality.Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-07 00:11:56
JackSprat, I didn't forget about that, I never have heard that before, I don't think, maybe I did and you are right I forgot. So many hidden scandals thru the years I don't doubt it. There was a time when I was young when I didn't pay it much mind either way, I always had the feeling Satan was playing both sides of the isle, and still do!
I thank the Lord Jesus for keeping me in His sheepfold thus far, and continue to have faith in his Authority above all others, knowing that there is no other, the Lord makes it easy for those who truly have faith in Him.
Psalmbee
Comment by mark on 2018-06-03 22:51:46
Fantastic video. I was thinking of sending the form to all the local elders and telling them it's their duty as a servant of Jehovah to fill in the form and ask those governing people to dissociate those 4 guy's for joining the UN. It says it right in the elders book.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 09:36:03
Great idea. :)
Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-04 10:10:20
I’ve always wondered, in the congregations the Gb members belong to, do the other elders in that cong have the responsibility to handle if say one of the Gb sinned gravely without repent? Or are they ”immune” to be disfellowshippedby ”normal” elders?
Comment by Gogetter on 2018-06-04 10:13:44
Just some food for thought.
We could debate for a long time on what the motives of GB/Wt org. Were when
joining the U.N. as an NGO, I have my own ideas as well, but it really is an exercise in futility as no motive will excuse the outright hypocrisy
after decades of teaching us how evil the image of the wild beast is and the role it plays in Bible prophecy.
Several have made comments here on the content and focus of the BP site and Eric should move on to none JW doctrine and I totally disagree.
Those on here who are totally out of the organization I say congratulations, but many of us are PIMO’s for one reason or another.
We depend on this site to continue to unravel JW falsehoods that many have spent most of their lives being indoctrinated with.
This site is the only real way to help those we can’t leave behind by attempting to direct them here of which I have helped two to start their awakening by doing just that when the timing was right for them.
I don’t need to remind anyone that we must be very cautious when speaking to those in the congregation and if we can get them to this site and let them go as far as they need to wake up and then we move on to the next brother or sister.
IMHO we should view As our “new “ territory the dedicated friends who are stuck in but are aware things are not in harmony with the scriptures within the organization.
We do have a discuss the truth site provided by BP to have Bible based discussions on any topic, but we should not tamper with JW.org reviewer as this Is our main deconstructing tool of JW false doctrine that is presented in a fair, reasonable, and more importantly scriptural manner while displaying Christian love.
So to sum it up, Eric Wilson keep up this very important work not only for those who are already BP members but for the sake of the many, many that are sure to find themselves here in the near future!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-04 12:44:12
Thank you GoGetter. All of us supporting this site will heed your wise words!
Comment by Eleasar on 2018-06-04 18:05:59
The Revelation book was released in 1988. We studied it from 1989-90 for the first time. It was clearly stated that the UN was the Beast etc. Now as all the GB and helpers are very spiritual men, they would have attended the book study groups and taken in this spiritual food. The membership happens in 1992. My questions to those who still true believers and the leadership:
1. Why were we not informed on the “new light” that the UN is not the wild beast?
2. Do the leadership believe what they publish? How can you do this so soon after studying the book?
3. Would you classify this behaviour as hypocritical or practicing a secret sin?
You get the idea.
Comment by JackSprat on 2018-06-05 02:03:46
It is good to be able to read of the JW UN debacle in one place however I believe our talents are better off in studying and meditating on God's word than writing to Watchtower as no doubt they would not even read the letter and bin it just like the Russian government did to the mail bomb by the puppets of the JW borganization. The only thing that concerned the Russians was would someone not a JW would send an envelope containing a foreign substance to Mr Putin or someone else in list of authorities.
I understand that the mail bomb did more harm for the JW cause than good Just like the time everyone wrote to Mr Banda. it just made him more angrier.
However the UN debacle will always remain a thorn in the Watchtower's side. I did read the reply from watchtower re the UN it was all total denial of their knowledge of having to conform to the UN Charter. But even to affiliate in the smallest degree to the UN shows their complete disregard to our Lord's teachings.
Comment by A Thought on the JW.org/UN Petition Letter | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2018-06-05 11:34:21
[…] made a comment under the recent post on Christian neutrality and the Organization’s involvement in the […]
Comment by “My Kingdom is No Part of This World” | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2018-08-05 11:51:47
[…] taken sides? The widely known and documented membership of the United Nations as a N.G.O.[i] (See Identifying True Worship: Part 10 – Christian Neutrality And A thought on the JW.Org / UN Petition letter for a […]
Comment by We Will Go With You - Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2020-03-29 11:50:07
[…] The 10-year apostate affiliation with the United Nations as an NGO. (here) […]
Comment by The Watchtower Society’s Relationship with the UN – Preach From The Housetops on 2020-11-23 22:25:57
[…] also invite you to visit this site. Also this site and this site for additional […]
Comment by Jehovah is Directing His Organization - Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2020-12-20 11:10:54
[…] Why not watch this video read the following article on this site https://beroeans.net/2018/06/01/identifying-true-worship-part-10-christian-neutrality/. To read one of the most comprehensive published evidenced-based articles on the UN/NGO JW fiasco […]
Comment by “The King of the North” in the Time of the End - Study 2020/19 - Awaken JW's on 2022-08-04 03:06:31
[…] see https://beroeans.net/2018/06/01/identifying-true-worship-part-10-christian-neutrality/ for an examination of the Watchtower Organization’s involvement with the UN. […]