Confirmation of the Genesis Record from an Unexpected Source - Part 4

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-02 16:59:05

Hi Eric, I assume your reply was to my comment. Perhaps I could add to my reasoning.

While I agree the population could have numbered into any number you might like, and those doing the Coronavirus scans are probably better equipped to calculate the sort of population present by the time of the flood, the fact is that the account of the flood being in many lands does not prove that those who wrote about it were present at that time. The source has to be from the account at the tower of Babel, when the whole earth were forced to go in different directions.
I suppose I am still trying to link up Kangaroos and Platypus ducks and Koalas with the flood account. If they were on the Ark, how did they reach Os.
Whatever the answer, one solution is that Jehovah did not wipe them out because he did not need to, because there were no humans in those lands. Noah recorded the flood as he witnessed it, as would his immediate descendents, just as he passed on the account of creation as he was told it by those who went before him. Jehovah does not seem to have stepped in to dot the is and cross the ts, but kept it simple, and leave the rest for us to find out, in line with Ecclesiastes 3:11.

Until the bits of the puzzle all fit, is it out of order to suggest this as a solution?

One good thing about the lock down is we have even more time together here ! Until the wife finds more important things to do ! Is there anything more important ?

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-02 07:21:38

This has been a fascinating series. I was aware of some of the things you have brought out, but never so many. Thank you for your research and presentation.
It is clear that there is a common source of creation, flood etc. That source goes back to Babel, when the languages were confused, and from there mankind has taken the accounts with him. For people at Babel, they could only take what they knew, which goes back to what Noah and his family knew.

What it will never tell us, is how world wide was the whole flood. No one knew. They did not live in Australia or America. Whether the plates shifted as a result of the flood we do not know. If men did not live in those countries, then there is no reason for Jehovah to flood them. There is no need to be dogmatic, simply because the Bible says "everything in the earth will expire", but I do believe that there is room for the possibility that the flood was not earth wide. If I have said this before, I apologise for repeating myself, and if, Tadua, you are going to answer this question, then I eagerly look forward to that.

We have some great students now on this site. Thanks to all.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-04-02 08:53:37

  Imagine if all the history of humanity from the time of Constantine and the formation of the Catholic church down to our day was summed up in a document the length of the first six chapters of the Bible. That was it. No other record at all of any kind anywhere. Just six short chapters covering 1700 years of human history. All we have is speculation to go on.
  
  However, given exponential growth rates of population tied to a population that lives hundreds of years not just 70 or 80, and tied to the fact that the women were able to give birth at least into their second century of life, the possibility that humanity numbered in the billions and spread across the globe is feasible to contemplate. Why else flood the whole planet?
  
  As for tectonic plate shifting...I just remember that we are dealing with the one who creates stars so large that were one of them placed where the sun is, the earth would be orbiting inside it. Okay, not really. It would be consumed, but you get the picture. ?

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-04-02 17:12:25

  Hi LJ. I think, there is another possibility. Before flood, there was no Everest, no Kilimanjaro. The highest mountains were in the regions where wicked people lived. Hence, there was the only possibility - the flood over the entire globe. The enormous amount of water that had fallen on the Earth could squeeze the earth surface from all sides, like someone squeezes a grapefruit.
  The shifting of lithospheric plates, the Himalaya's rising or other morphology changes on planet could be the result of worldwide flood, or, according to Eric's hint, this could be God's intervention.

  • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-03 03:50:09

    Fair comment Frankie. But at Genesis 7:19, it states, and probably as Noah witnessed it, that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens came to be covered. He had no view other than where he was and what he could see. If the plates moved and caused great mountains at that time, he witnessed little more than a combination of what he knew before and where he found himself, on mount Ararat.
    So we are either looking from Noah, and his sons' view, or Jehovah inspired the saying giving Noah insight into things he did not know. As the account of creation is written from the view of man on the earth, I am inclined to feel that the flood account is also written from Noah's point of standing. On that basis it is perfectly accurate, in my opinion.
    
    PS, JA, I was a little disappointed in your attack on Tadua's article. I am no expert on Greek, but I can still use a variety of tools to work out many things and get to an accurate answer. The information supports the Bible, and builds confidence in it, and gives no evidence of significant error. Hope you do not take offence at me mentioning this.

    • Reply by Frankie on 2020-04-03 06:12:17

      Yes, you are right LJ, the Bible account is written from Noah's point of standing. My hypothesis (nothing more than hypothesis) assumes three situations.
      
      Before Flood: The highest mountains, much lower than Everest (for example), were out of Noah's sight. But the wicked people lived there. So the Flood had to cover all the globe (Gen 7:19).
      
      During Flood: Noah and his family were in Ark. During that time the huge morphological changes took place on Earth. The lithospheric plates were "probably” moving, the mountains were rising. Because of this, the Ark was shielded by God's power, as the Ark's wooden structure would probably not withstand the blast of huge waves (there are known problems with design of Ark-sized wooden ships [without steel], related to their structural integrity when shipping).
      
      After Flood: Everything was over. Basic morphological changes were finished and the Ark landed on Ararat. Noah did not know that there are already some mountains higher than Ararat.
      
      This could be in line with the Bible's report. But we should not exclude God's intervention during the flood. It was God's action.
      But we will surely know, when 1 Cor 13:12 will be fulfilled. I look forward to it.

Comment by Frankie on 2020-04-02 17:41:33

Hello Tadua.
Thank you for very interesting series. Information about the early history of mankind, encoded in Chinese characters, is remarkably accurate. This information is much more accurate than the Flood legends of the various nations that have been preserved through oral form.

The early history described in the first chapters of the Bible is often the target of attacks against the credibility of entire Bible. Such articles surely strengthen our belief in the truth of God's Word.
God bless you. Frankie

Comment by Alithia on 2020-04-04 01:39:39

When this series started I did not fully understand the rhetorical question that was made; being, what would be the best literary writing method that could be used for people to forever after remember an event that carried a warning message for future generations down through aeons of time?

Well as it turned out the answer to that question would be a colourful story filled with drama, horror, events that would evoke great passion and emotion, events that would challenge the everyday experience of the everyday individual as to whether they are plausible, ethical and moral dilemmas, unbelievable logistics, philosophical questions around a person's worldview whether it be a theistic or an atheistic outlook!
The story of the flood in Noah's day has all of this and much more! No wonder we are still talking about it today! This in itself is further proof that Jehovah caused the flood as a lesson and a warning for generations to come, and also as a story of how God is concerned for individuals and can bring about salvation for them even during what could be considered inescapable catastrophic situations.

That is why as the saying goes you never forget how to ride a bike once you have learnt how to ride one and are proficient at doing it. The reason for this is because there are so many factors involved in riding a bike. Not only is there the physicality of pedalling and hanging onto the handlebars and steering, but there is also our sense of balance that is involved. Also all of our senses are used, our sense of touch our sense of hearing and especially our sense of sight as we peddle along avoiding obstacles and staying on the path we want to.
But not only for these reasons, riding a bike is a very enjoyable and pleasant experience emotionally. We can all relate to riding along casually in a beautiful park smelling the beautiful aromas of the plants and the trees and the grass, enjoying the greenery and the good company and perhaps a gentle breeze on our face to. This combination of factors imprints indelibly on our mind this experience and therefore again as the saying goes once you learn how to ride a bike you never forget!

So too I suppose Jehovah elected to use a cataclysmic flood for the salvation of Noah and his family and to serve as a warning for mankind in the future. There are so many elements involved in this event that we are still discussing the details today and wondering about it. Testimony to the wisdom of Jehovah and his understanding of his creation, humankind. And what is required for a good lesson learnt and not forgotten!
Therefore you could perhaps ask why did God not just poof out of existence all of wicked mankind at the time without any record of this event or the need for a worldwide flood?
Obviously Jehovah knows our mental physical spiritual and emotional make up and what experience would be required for the lessons that could be learnt from this event and would never be forgotten and related down throughout history for our benefit.

However I do not get some of the comments here around koala bears and kangaroos? It leads to speculation and really mere guesswork. What we are discussing here from a human standpoint is a miracle of epic and almost unparalleled proportions, except for the creative works of Jehovah.
So I do not understand the relevance or why some of the questioning reduces to how a koala bear could possibly be found in Australia and nowhere else?

Who is to say that Jehovah didn't recreate animals anywhere in the world as he saw fit? A brief study of palaeontology will demonstrate that in the fossil record some billions of years ago there was much life form on earth. However some many many millions of years later there was what is called the Cambrian explosion. Where myriads of lifeforms suddenly appeared! There's no reason to suggest that God's creative acts could not have continued before during and after the flood event too?

You either believe in an almighty creator who created the universe, and the earth and everything in it, who is unlimited in power or you don't. That's my opinion. And if you do, why would it be implausible that the flood may have been a worldwide flood because we merely do not understand how a kangaroo and a possum or a koala bear can only be found in Australia? I don't get it. Are we looking for an answer by studying koala bears? Does all of this really hang on the rate of travel of a koala bear in a day in months or a year and whether they can find certain eucalyptus leaves? This has really inverted the whole story, putting the koala bear at the pinnacle and Jehovah and the miraculous cataclysm at the bottom. And if we do that, then I guess we really have a problem as to whether the flood really was a worldwide flood or even happened! But this is a straw man argument. We are not talking about koala bears here. And as mentioned here in one of the comments, if you consider the universe alone and its vastness, the size of some of these planets and stars, distances between them and the choreographed movement between them, why is it implausible to suggest that God used his power in some manner to make it all happen?
Whereas I think if we put Jehovah at the top and the koala bear on the bottom, just how the koala bear got where it did and other animals around the planet and why there are mountains and tectonic plate movement and rate of movement et cetera is really not an issue, not for me anyway.
I live not too far away from where I can see the bears and kangaroos in their natural habitat, I really enjoy seeing them up close but I don't really care how they got here.

Critics of the Bible who wish to point out seeming contradictions and the implausibility of these events having happened point to such things as koala bears kangaroos and perhaps snakes and green tree frogs and who knows what. But these people have no faith in God and are atheists. Usually of the virulent kind who look for the smallest reason to dissuade people from having any faith in God's Word the Bible as being truthful. Because they are also materialists, and naturalists, and give no credit for the existence of nature to a incredibly powerful and super intelligent Creator, they look to the creation only for answers. Therefore they will stumble on issues as to why there are only koala bears and kangaroos in Australia and certain other animals in other places only. It's inevitable that they will be confounded and feel that there is a logical contradiction to the story but this is only because they have no faith in a creator.

And just as a side point I'd like to briefly address the comment someone made about the story having spread from Babel and there not being eyewitnesses to spread the account. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me. Of course the people at Babel would be knowledgeable around the story of Noah and the great flood. But why begin with the people who lived during the building of the tower of the Babel and was subsequently scattered throughout the earth? How would they have known this story except for the fact that their forebears passed down and related this story from the actual eyewitnesses which was Noah and his family. And this story would have gone nowhere unless the people who heard it from the eyewitnesses weren't fully convinced that Noah and his sons and their wives were actually telling the truth. No doubt they were convinced that there was eight people who told the same story no doubt with great passion relating the details of the rising waters of the animals in the ark the building of the arc the destruction of the wicked people. No doubt they would have passionately told this story with great emotion leaving those who heard this story in no doubt that they were telling the truth. Therefore they felt confident that they could relate the story to their offspring. And they had no reason to disbelieve Noah and his sons as they were actually his offspring! And looking around and considering that there were no other inhabitants there was no reason not to believe them don't you think? They also would have been the remains of the Ark that possibly would have been slowly disassembled and used for other purposes perhaps as further evidence of the event having happened. I can't possibly imagine how such an legend could have come about without something actually having happened that we can read about in the Genesis account of the great flood.

And there you go I just can't stop talking about it either! And we will keep talking about it because that's what Jehovah wanted us to do. Jesus talked about it some of the apostles talked about it and we will all keep talking about it until the day Jesus returns. And then probably will keep talking about it forever after who knows?

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-04 05:16:59

  Wow, Alithia. You certainly are passionate about this subject. Let me state that I was not doubting the Bible account. I fully believe that Jehovah brought about the event, and used the flood to wipe man off the earth, barring Noah and his family. You at least offer an explanation on the Kangaroos etc - new creation after the flood. I have no idea how many others go along with that idea. I is a solution, though there is nothing in scripture to support it.
  As Eric also pointed out, the population by the time of the flood would have been huge, though how much of the earth they lived in is uncertain. Almost every evidence of mankind's pre flood existence has disappeared.
  As regards your thoughts around Babel, I agree that everyone had no reason to disbelieve Noah, and he was still alive when the languages were confused some 100 years or so after the flood. But the account they took was from Noah's point of view. Do bear in mind that when the Bible uses the term "Earth" it frequently means "mankind" rather than the planet, so that in Genesis we have Noah's account of what happened. Did he take two of every animal, every kind of food, etc , on the whole planet, or did he take everything he could in the area he lived. ? I have no problem in believing that he did what he could. This was hardly something he could have done on his own, so there is no reason not to believe that he had some heavenly help.
  I can assure you that I am not being critical of the Bible. All I am saying is that the idea of the flood being limited in area, albeit a very big area, is not out of harmony with the Bible record.
  Neither do I want to sound like I am trying to minimise the size of the flood. I was simply trying to get to the bottom of how certain animals got to be in certain parts of the earth, if they were on the Ark in the first place.
  What the exact truth is may not be vital, no more than the details of creation. The Bible says these events happened, and it is my belief that, in the absence reasonable explanations there can be more than one way to view the account of the flood, without denying that it took place.

  • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-04 17:04:33

    Hello Leonardo, all I was trying to get across was that you cannot argue backwards from a situation such as a Koala bear to try to make sense of what took place in the flood account such as the scope of the flood.
    There is simply not enough in scripture for us to deduce what may or may not have happened. There is only enough for us to understand the reason the account was recorded.
    Also as the account relates, God promised he would never wipe out mankind using a flood again. So it is a one off event and we cannot compare it now to any common experience to draw a conclusion this way or that way.
    It is similar to Lot's wife turning to salt, the sun standing still in Joshua's battle and Sodom and Gomorrah being burned with sulphur fire.
    People scour the Earth to look for clues for these events having happened and when they can not turn up any evidence they discount the events as false. Rather than just conclude that they are unable to explain it other than it was miraculous event and by the hand of God.
    
    Moses's staff turned into a large snake, then turned back into a rod again. Then in the Ark of the covenant blossomed! How do you suggest we embark on a research exercise to determine if a wooden staffs can or could turn into a snake or blossom from dry dead wood? Is this approach one that is necessary or a valid one to explain the event in more detail. Could this approach shed any more light on whether the event actually happened or not, and possibly provide us with a rebuttal for the unbelievers? Looking around and studying wood I guess we would conclude this did not happen or happened by chicanery or people were deluded or it was just a fable. Exactly the road that atheists go down . I see it as a fruitless exercise. As it was a one off event that was miraculous. We cannot deduce from nature and the present day natural occurrences that are dictated by the laws of nature to determine anything around Moses's staff. It is not a valid exercise I think in my opinion.
    
    Forensic detectives even in a cold case look for clues that provide the best inference for what happened in the distant past. They may not have all of the answers but they can provide a compelling case. Though questions may still remain. The point is forensic science can compare with what we experience on a day to day basis in our day and can compare and with the evidence to arrive at reasonable conclusions. DNA, time line, alibi, opportunity, motive etc. With the flood it was a one off event and there is nothing we can compare with that makes it that much more speculative, hence in my mind we should not and can not draw any solid conclusions with regards to the scope of the flood. Other than what scripture says, unless we can offer alternative explanations, but in the end the net result and benefit over and above the reason for why it was recorded could be a waste of time and only speculative.
    
    I apologise if I was too strident in my response as alone in my room dodging necessary chores in the house, I hasten to add, my wife telling me to leave everyone alone and get a life, and on my own thinking introspectively it can come across in an uncaring fashion however I do not intend it to be, so sorry if it was a hot blast of sought. Not meant to be. I really appreciate everyone's input and I have benefited greatly from comments over the time I have visited this site, so thanks to all. I think there is benefit in everyone freely expressing their own thoughts on any matter and it is as valid as mine and anyone else. And in any case you have got me thinking on this story and onto my typewriter that is for sure!
    
    Love to alllllll from Alithia.

  • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-06 06:46:14

    Hi Josephus. I was watching a VDO and thought it might introduce you nicely to the genre that may influence you around a world wide flood and not just a local one. Enjoy it and let me know what you think. See link.
    
    Regards Alithia/John Contrary

    • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-07 07:34:43

      Thanks Alithia, that was an excellent film. I do not think I was ever doubting the flood, but I did wonder how world wide it was. Clearly the expression at Genesis 7:11 (the vast watery deep burst open) takes on even more significance.
      The film presents the view that these events could indeed have happened over a short period of time, which is what the Bible says. A lot of excellent information.
      However, if all these things happened, did the plates move the continents at that time, or later, while I still have no real answer to how our little Koalas and Kangas got to Australia.
      Is there an explanation ?
      Excellent film, and one comment is worth repeating : - The Bible records the events, but leaves us to examine the evidence. You never know what we might discover.
      Thanks Alithia.

      • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-08 05:02:45

        Hello Leonardo, here is some more information that I think could be sufficient to resolve the mystery of the koala bear conundrum!!! There are ideas that I had not considered before and stuff that is in our life time that demonstrate the definite possibility of animals travelling and living in what appears unexplained circumstances. See the link below.
        https://youtu.be/LEAbPwmJ14U?t=21

Comment by Alithia on 2020-04-04 19:14:35

Hello again still dodging necessary chores, it is Sunday morning for me here! In response to the vexed Koala Bear question for what it is worth it could be worth looking at a few "Creationist" You Tubes on the whole flood story. They are well resourced with scientific information. I do not personally subscribe to the "young earth" theory that they espouse however with regards to a world wide flood there is compelling evidence in these You Tubes of rapid tectonic plate movements, extensive land masses that are now under water and mountains having recently appeared that were underwater. And a heap of information from the fossil record that may relate to the great flood as being universal.

In addition, deduced from certain coal fields from around the world (places far apart on different continents though "connected" by factoring in tectonic plate separation), there is evidence for a theory that due to the world wide flood there was massive areas of floating vegetation made of trees and other similar materials that eventually sunk and was fossilised and is now coal.
Could Jehovah have used more methods than Noah's Ark to preserve animals that we know of today? The Koala Bear (bless the little critters they are so cute), could they have hitched a ride on one of these "floating forests", floated to Australia, (the tectonic plates then separating further due to the water subsiding) and settled with a life supply of Eucalyptus leaves that they need and plenty until they germinated and grew to continue the supply! And further due to Gods miraculous power did not He sustain Elijah with water and bread and meat using ravens? I believe in this and other miracles performed by God. Could He not sustain a Koala Bear too, for perhaps some time until they were self supporting?

There, and I am doing what I said is only pure speculation and perhaps not greatly beneficial! I like to speculate like anyone else, just don't get me going! Want more? How about this one;
Looking forward and not backwards how about the coming judgement which was likened to Noah's day, will it be world wide or only local as far as where humans may be found? Will all the earth be included regardless of where or if humans live there? Will all of the earth require cleansing and a restoration of all things? From anyone's point of view and experience will we know about the full extent, degree or scope of this judgement and activity?

Possibly why I am not so disposed to speculation is as you can see I have too many of my own wacky ideas about things. And there is a heap of them out there let me assure you, if you do not already know!

Love to all from Alithia/John Contrary

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-05 08:04:42

  Hi Alithia, it is good you have your thoughts on the matter. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the creationist articles. You obviously have your views, while I am just trying to balance the little cutie animals with the scriptures. I think we could have a great discussion one to one, although I have no idea whether we would arrive at a conclusion. But it is good to talk about these things. The shame is that you really could never do this as a JW when you have to simply accept what you are taught.
  Meanwhile all the best with those chores. I shall be forced into the garden after lunch.

Comment by Alithia on 2020-04-08 05:04:37

Hello all, great memorial the other day with the brotherhood. On another note here is a link which is compelling as to how koalas may have settled in Australia and in other places in the world. See below.


Love o all from Alithia/John Contrary.

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2020-04-08 14:41:57

  This little guy here I think is trying to tell us the compelling truth about the matter.
  
  https://www.savethekoala.com/sites/savethekoala.com/files/uploads/BBC%20News%20%20%20Koalas%20bellow%20with%20unique%20voice%20organ.webm
  
  
  Psalmbee

  • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-08 20:57:31

    Well done Psalmbee! Then I suppose this settles the matter!

    • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-09 04:34:10

      Thank you Alithia. You have defended the scriptures with good reasoning and some interesting films.
      
      So, let me get this right, for us Ignoramuses. The flood came, and at the same sort of time, the plates around the earth were greatly disturbed and resulted in some extraordinary movements of continents and mountains.
      The Bible alludes to something at Genesis 7:11, where we read that "all the springs of the vast watery deep burst open...."
      One of the consequences, or otherwise, of all this was an Ice age, for which the discovery of mammoths and other animals in Siberia supports such an event. The ice age resulted in a drop in the level of the oceans, making some lands more reachable.
      Animals moved to different parts of the earth, as is evidenced by particular species being found in certain countries. The abundance of certain foods changed their diets, and they settled where they found the food. We see plenty of evidence that animals behave in a herd like manner, and cover huge distances in search of food and water.
      Still not sure how some of those animals crossed over the seas, but presume the Ice age must have lasted a reasonably long time. I guess a very long distance could be covered in 100 years or so.
      The missing pieces are by God's hand.
      Is that about it ?

      • Reply by Tadua on 2020-04-09 09:50:42

        Hi Leonardo
        For a fascinating book on a very scientific and likely explanation for the mammoths and the way flood affected the earth
        I have
        Frozen in Time by Michael Oard,
        The World that perished, 3rd edition by Jon C. Whitcomb, and
        The Genesis Flood 50th anniversary edition by John C.Whitcomb and Henry M.Morris.
        And if you really love in depth,
        Earths Catastrophic Past Vol 1&2 by Andrew Snelling.
        I am intending to do an article or maybe 2 or 3 based on these when time permits.
        These give the most reasonable explanation I have come across ever and I have not been able to spot any scientific flaws in their arguments.

        • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-10 22:36:42

          Hello Tadua, why hold out on us all this time! Bring it on!!!!!!!! Looking forward to the presentations as much as I enjoyed these ones.

      • Reply by Alithia on 2020-04-09 18:59:01

        Great summary Leo!! I agree. You might think about producing your own You Tube explaining the process!!!
        
        (I am wondering now if after this you might spring a "beauty" on us). I suppose one must be a little philosophical here, in that no one can be 100% sure about anything, but one can only draw conclusions based on what the evidence most strongly suggests and which explanation has the strongest inference for what we will accept as what most likely happened. Of course one must be honest with oneself and allow the facts to speak as objectively as possible without undue influence from preconceived ideas around things. This tendency can be seen from many a die hard atheist and biblical critic/scientists who want to believe a world wide flood never happened and that civilisation is older than what the scriptures may suggest.
        
        But in my mind there is enough evidence to suggest that flood happened and could happen as per the Genesis account which strengthens my faith in God and his inerrant Word. I do not see anything that can dent my trust in Gods Word or to have to rely on a Gnostic credulous type "faith".
        
        (I do not understand your lingering doubt about animals transversing great distances separated by sea??? The VDO explained (I think credibly) how the Earth mass was at one time connected before the tectonic plates drifted apart.
        
        See ya all fro Alitha/John Contrry

        • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-10 07:03:12

          Hi Alithia, thanks for your thoughts. You say you do not understand my lingering doubts about animals traversing great distances by sea. As I understand things, the flood and the movement of the plates can have all happened at the same time, along with all sorts of other cataclysmic things. This would leave a load of water on the surface of the earth, which had to drain off, after which the earth looked something like it does now, with 70% water covering the surface, albeit moving about. At this point Noah let the animals out.
          If I am reading what you say correctly, then you are suggesting that the plate movement took place after the flood. Is that right ? That was not the conclusion I came to, although it is not impossible.
          The books Tadua has referred to sound interesting, but I do not know what they say, yet.
          All I am trying to do is fit the facts together. Those films, however, have done much to put me back towards accepted the Bible account is of a world wide flood.
          Thanks again and love to all from the UK.
          Be careful one and all.

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