On March 27 of this year, we will be commemorating the memorial of the death of Jesus Christ online using Zoom technology. At the end of this video, I will be sharing the details of how and when you can join us online. I have also put this information into the description field of this video. You can also find it on our web site by navigating to beroeans.net/meetings. We are inviting anyone who is a baptized Christian to join us, but this invitation is especially directed to our former brothers and sisters in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have realized, or are coming to realize, the importance of partaking of the emblems that represent the flesh and blood of our redeemer. We know this can often be a hard decision to reach due to the power of decades of indoctrination from the Watchtower publications telling us that partaking is only for a chosen few thousand individuals but not for the millions of Other Sheep.
In this video, we will be considering the following:
- Who really should partake of the bread and wine?
- Who are the 144,000 and the “Great Crowd of Other Sheep”?
- Why don’t most Jehovah’s Witnesses partake?
- How often should we commemorate the Lord’s death?
- Finally, how can we join the 2021 memorial online?
On the first question, “Who should really partake of the bread and wine?”, we’ll start by reading Jesus’ words in John. (I’m going to be using the New World Translation Reference Bible throughout this video. I don’t trust the accuracy of the 2013 version, the so-called Silver sword.)
“I am the bread of life. YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (John 6:48-51)
It is pretty clear from this that to live forever – something we all want to do, right? – we have to eat of the living bread which is the flesh Jesus gives on behalf of the world.
The Jews didn’t understand this:
“. . .Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves.” (John 6:52, 53)
So, it is not just his flesh that we must eat but also his blood which we must drink. Otherwise, we have no life in ourselves. Is there any exception to this rule? Does Jesus make a provision for a class of Christian who does not have to partake of his flesh and blood to be saved?
I haven’t found one, and I challenge anyone to find such a provision explained in the publications of the Organization, much less in the Bible.
Now, the majority of Jesus’ disciples didn’t understand and were offended by his words, but his 12 apostles remained. This prompted Jesus to ask a question of the 12, the answer to which virtually every Jehovah’s Witness I’ve asked gets wrong.
“. . .Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?”” (John 6:66, 67)
It is a very safe bet that if you asked this question to any of your witness friends or relatives, they will say that Peter’s answer was, “Where else will we go, Lord?” However, the real answer was, “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life…” (John 6:68)
This is a very important distinction, because it means that salvation does not come from being somewhere, like inside an “ark-like organization”, but rather by being with someone, that is, with Jesus Christ.
While the apostles did not understand the meaning of his words then, they understood very soon when he instituted the commemoration of his death using the symbols of the bread and wine to represent his flesh and blood. By partaking of the bread and wine, a baptized Christian is symbolically representing his acceptance of the flesh and blood that Jesus sacrificed on our behalf. To refuse to partake, is to refuse what the symbols represent and therefore to reject the free gift of life.
Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus speak of two hopes for Christians. Nowhere does he speak of a heavenly hope for a tiny minority of Christians and an earthly hope for the vast majority of his disciples. Jesus only mentions two resurrections:
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29)
Obviously, the resurrection to life would correspond to those who partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus, because as Jesus himself said, unless we partake of his flesh and blood, we have no life in ourselves. The other resurrection—there are only two—is for those who practised vile things. That is obviously not a hope that is being extended to Christians who are expected to practice good things.
Now to address the second question: “Who are the 144,000 and the “Great Crowd of Other Sheep”?
Jehovah’s Witnesses are told that only 144,000 have the heavenly hope, while the rest are part of a great crowd of other sheep who will be declared righteous to live on earth as friends of God. This is a lie. Nowhere in the Bible are Christians described as being friends of God. They are always described as being God’s children. They inherit everlasting life because God’s children inherit from their Father who is the source of all life.
Regarding the 144,000, Revelation 7:4 reads:
“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…”
Is this a literal number or a symbolic one?
If we take it as literal, then we are obliged to take each of the 12 numbers that are used to sum this number as literal also. You can’t have a literal number that is the sum total of a bunch of symbolic numbers. That makes no sense. Here are the 12 numbers that total 144,0000. (Display them alongside me on screen.) That means that from each tribe of Israel an exact number of 12,000 must come out. Not 12,001 from one tribe and 11,999 from another. Exactly 12,000 from each, if indeed we are talking a literal number. Does that seem logical? Indeed, since the Christian congregation which includes Gentiles is spoken of as the Israel of God at Galatians 6:16 and there are no tribes in the Christian congregation, how are these 12 literal numbers going to be extracted from 12 literal, but non-existent tribes?
In Scripture, the number 12 and multiples thereof refer symbolically to a balanced, divinely ordained administrative arrangement. Twelve tribes, 24 priestly divisions, 12 apostles, etcetera. Now notice that John doesn’t see the 144,000. He only hears their number called out.
“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000…” (Revelation 7:4)
However, when he turns to look, what does he see?
“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)
He hears the number of those sealed as 144,000, but he sees a great crowd which no man is able to number. This is further evidence that the number of 144,000 is symbolic of a large group of people in the balanced, divinely ordained administrative arrangement. That would be the kingdom or government of our Lord Jesus. These are from every nation, people, tongue, and notice, every tribe. It is reasonable to understand that this group would include not only Gentiles but Jews from the 13 tribes, including Levi, the priestly tribe. The organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has coined a phrase: “The great crowd of other sheep”. But his phrase exists nowhere in the Bible. They would have us believe that this great crowd do not have the heavenly hope, but they are depicted standing before the throne of God and offering sacred service in the holy of holies, the sanctuary (in Greek, naos) where God resides.
“That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” (Revelation 7:15)
Again, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the other sheep have a different hope. I’ll put a link to a video on the other sheep if you want to understand in detail who they are. Suffice it to say that the other sheep are mentioned only once in the Bible at John 10:16. There, Jesus is differentiating between the flock or fold that was the Jewish nation to whom he was speaking, and other sheep that were not of the Jewish nation. Those turned out to be the gentiles that would enter into the flock of God three and half years later after his death.
Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the 144,000 is a literal number? This is because Joseph F. Rutherford taught that. Remember, this is the man who also launched the “Millions now living will never die” campaign that predicted the end was coming in 1925. This teaching has been fully discredited and for those who wish to take the time to study the evidence, I will put a link to an extensive article proving that point in the description of this video. Again, suffice it to say that Rutherford was creating a clergy and laity class. The other sheep are a secondary class of Christian, and continue to be so down to this day. This laity class must obey all the dictates and commands issued by the priestly class, the anointed class, comprising in its leadership the governing body.
Now to the third question: “Why don’t most Jehovah’s Witnesses partake?”
Obviously, if only the 144,000 can partake and 144,000 is a literal number, then what you do with the millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not part of the 144,000?
That reasoning is the basis upon which the governing body gets millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses to disobey a direct command of Jesus Christ. They get these sincere Christians to believe they are not worthy to partake. It is not about being worthy. None of us are worthy. It is about being obedient, and much more than that, it is about showing true appreciation for the free gift being offered to us. As the bread and wine is passed from one to another at the meeting, it is as if God is saying, “Here, dear child, is the gift I offer to you to live eternally. Eat and drink.” And yet, the Governing Body has managed to get each and every Jehovah’s Witness to reply back to go, “Thank you, but no thank you. This isn’t for me.” What a tragedy!
This presumptuous group of men starting with Rutherford and continuing on down to our day have induced millions of Christians to turn their nose up at the gift that God is really offering them. In part, they have done this by misapplying 1 Corinthians 11:27. They love to cherry pick a verse and ignore the context.
“Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:27)
This has nothing to do with getting some mystical invitation from God that allows you to partake. The context clearly indicates that the apostle Paul was speaking about those who treat the Lord’s evening meal as a chance to overeat and get drunk, while disrespecting the poor brothers who also attend.
But still some might counter, doesn’t Romans 8:16 tell us that we have to be informed by God to partake?
It reads: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16)
That is a self-serving interpretation imposed on this verse by the organization. The context of Romans does not bear out that interpretation. For example, from the first verse of the chapter until the 11th of that chapter, Paul is contrasting the flesh with the spirit. He gives us two choices: to be led by the flesh which results in death, or by the spirit which results in life. None of the other sheep would want to think they are being led by the flesh, which leaves them only one option, to be led by the spirit. Romans 8:14 tells us that “for all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons”. This completely contradicts the watchtower doctrine that the other sheep are only God’s friends and not his sons, unless they want to admit that the other sheep are not led by God’s spirit.
Here you have a group of people who broke away from false religion abandoning such blasphemous teachings as hellfire, the immortality of the human soul, and the Trinity doctrine to name only a few, and who are actively preaching the kingdom of God as they understand it. What a coup it was for Satan to subvert this faith by getting them to refuse to become part of the seed destined to take him down, because by refusing the bread and the wine, they are refusing to become part of the prophesied seed of the woman of Genesis 3:15. Remember, John 1:12 tells us that all who receive Jesus by putting faith in him, are given “authority to become God’s children”. It says “all”, not just some, not just 144,000.
The annual JW commemoration of the Lord’s evening meal has become little more than a recruitment tool. While there is nothing wrong with commemorating it once a year on the date we understand it actually occurred, although there is great dispute over that, we should understand that the first century Christians did not confine themselves to only an annual commemoration. Early church writings indicate that the bread and the wine were shared regularly at congregation gatherings which were usually in the form of meals in the homes of Christians. Jude refers to these as “love feasts” at Jude 12. When Paul tells the Corinthians to “keep doing this as OFTEN as you drink it, in remembrance of me” and “WHENEVER you eat this loaf and drink this cup”, he was not referring to a once-a-year celebration. (See 1 Corinthians 11:25, 26)
Aaron Milavec writes in his book which is a translation, analysis, and commentary of the Didache which is “the preserved oral tradition whereby made it first century house churches detail the step-by-step transformation by which Gentile converts were to be prepared for full active participation in the assemblies”:
“It is difficult to know precisely how the newly baptized responded to their first Eucharist [Memorial]. Many, in the process of embracing the way of life, created enemies among those who regarded them as shamelessly abandoning all piety – piety to the gods, to their parents, to their ancestral “way of life.” Having lost fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and workshops, the newly baptized were now embraced by a new family that restored all these abundantly. The act of eating together with their new family for the first time must thus have been made a deep impression upon them. Now, at last, they could openly acknowledge their true “father” among the fathers present and their true “mother” among the mother’s present. It must have been as though their whole lives were pointed in this direction: that of finding brothers and sisters with whom they would share everything – without jealousy, without competition, with gentleness and truth. The act of eating together foreshadowed the rest of their lives, for here were the faces of their true family sharing, in the name of the Father of all (the unseen host), the wine and bread that were the foretaste of their unending future together.”
This is what the commemoration of Christ’s death should mean to us. Not some dry, once-a-year ritual, but a true sharing of Christian love, really, a love feast as Jude calls it. So, we invite you to join us on March 27th. You’ll want to have some unleavened bread and some red wine at hand. We will be holding five memorials at different times to correspond to the different time zones in the world. Three will be in English and two in Spanish. Here are the times. To get the information on how to link up using zoom, go to the description of this video, or check out a meeting schedule at https://beroeans.net/meetings
English meetings
Australia and Eurasia, at 9 PM Sydney, Australia time.
Europe, at 6 PM London, England time.
The Americas, at 9 PM New York time.
Spanish meetings
Europe, 8 PM Madrid Time
The Americas, 7 PM New York Time
I hope you can join us.
Archived Comments
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Comment by lost in space on 2021-03-09 22:14:44
Thanks Eric, what a fine line of scriptural reasoning. We hope to attend from Melbourne Australia.
Comment by Kairaat on 2021-03-10 03:04:26
Thank you Eric for another informative video. Looking forward to be there on 27th. Just a question. You mentioned that - the Bible talks about only ONE hope. So, what is the 'Paradise' hope that Jesus offers the thief on the stake/cross next to him?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-10 09:49:45
The hope for humankind is to live on earth. That is the hope we have for humanity. Paul speaks of two hopes at Acts 24:15, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. To understand this, we have to stop thinking about location. That confuses the issue.
How do you reconcile the unrighteous to God? You do it through an administration set up which includes Christ and his brothers, the children of God. The hope currently held out to all is that one hope, to be part of the solution. Christ didn't preach two hopes. He didn't say, if you want to put faith in me, you can become a child of God and rule with me, but if you don't want to be a child of God and rule with me, you can grab hold of a different prize. To focus on the hope extended to the unrighteous at this time in history is to put the cart before the horse.
If your main concern is to be declared righteous by God but not go to heaven, then again you are working under a false premise. The heavenly hope is not a hope of living in heaven. Heaven has many meanings in the Bible, but by far the most common refers to powers that rule, or that which is above.
Reply by Fani on 2021-03-11 06:19:02
Merci beaucoup Éric pour cet exposé simple et tellement libérateur.
Je suis tellement heureuse aujourd'hui de pouvoir prendre le pain et le vin.
Comment a t'on pu nous empêcher de suivre les paroles pourtant explicites du Christ ? Je pense que c'est grave.
JA : concernant l'espérance de vivre au ciel ou sur la terre, ce n'est pas un problème. C'est Dieu qui choisit.
Je me rappelle les paroles du Christ disant "qu'il y a beaucoup de demeures dans le Royaume de son Père. Je m'en vais vous préparer une place". Que connaissons-nous des différentes demeures de Dieu ? Le fait d'aller dans une autre demeure ne sous entend pas que la demeure "terre" est moins bonne.
Le dessein de Dieu peut changer à un moment donné.
Dieu a voulu que l'homme remplisse la terre. Une fois qu'elle sera remplie (ce qui arrivera forcément) ne changera t'il pas son dessein pour l'homme ? Qu'en sera t'il de la procréation ? Nous n'en savons rien.
Un autre verset m'interroge : Philippiens 1:23-24
[23]Je suis pressé des deux côtés: jai le désir de men aller et d`être avec Christ, ce qui de beaucoup est le meilleur;
[24]mais à cause de vous il est plus nécessaire que je demeure dans la chair."
Qu'espère Paul de meilleur ? Qu'est-ce qui est opposé au fait de rester dans la chair à ce moment précis où Paul parle ? Il veut s'en aller pour être avec Christ. Si être avec Christ n'est que pour bien plus tard (que ce soit sur la terre ou dans le ciel) pourquoi dit il qu'il préférerait partir de la terre maintenant ?
Bien que vivre sur la terre me convient parfaitement, je ne suis sûre de rien. Mais ce n'est pas un problème, juste des interrogations.
J'aimerais avoir votre avis sur ces versets.
Merci à tous
NicoleReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-11 08:46:14
Ce que je suis sur le point de vous dire n'est que mon opinion, alors gardez cela à l'esprit s'il vous plaît. Je crois que nous serons ressuscités en tant qu'esprits de la même manière que Jésus, mais comme Jésus, nous pourrons prendre la chair afin que nous puissions servir les nombreux humains ressuscités qui seront sous nos soins dans le royaume de Jésus. . Je ne crois pas que nous vivrons au paradis, mais qu'il y aura un endroit spécialement préparé pour nous d'où nous pourrons partir pour être avec nos semblables. C'est un arrangement qui durera mille ans. Passé ce délai, je n'en ai aucune idée. Pas même de spéculation.
Reply by Fani on 2021-03-12 02:15:55
Merci JA, merci Éric pour vos réponses.
Ne vous inquiétez pas, dans ce cas précis je ne prends pas vos réponses comme vérité. Je voulais juste un échange sur ce sujet.
Je me rends bien compte que pour tout le monde ce sujet reste imprécis.
Nous ne connaissons que partiellement.
Nous sommes juste certains que nous recevrons la vie éternelle.
C'est déjà beaucoup.
Merci encore
Reply by Fani on 2021-03-15 13:49:10
Ce n'est pas à Kairaat que j'avais posé ma question mais à Just Asking.
Je ne vois plus son commentaire.
Peut-être que ce serait bien que nous soyons informés sur les raisons pour lesquelles un commentaire disparaît.
Est ce tout simplement un bug ou il y a une raison précise. (Dans ce cas, je ne vois aucune bonne raison)
De plus, je suis assez d'accord avec Leonardo Josèphe : lorsqu'on note un moins il serait bien d'expliquer pourquoi.
Fraternellement
Comment by Nightingale on 2021-03-10 05:34:00
That's a good summary Eric. Hopefully many witnesses will see this.
Another thing that might make some witnesses to think is how in John 6 the bread of life is compared to manna in the wilderness. Every Israelite had to eat it to stay alive. There were no "observers" back then who just watched when some others ate it. Every witness would consider such an idea crazy - and yet they don't see they are doing the same thing in the Memorial.Reply by Ad_Lang on 2021-03-10 11:26:49
I don't know if only observing would cause one to get in trouble. It seems that the essential matters revolve around accepting Jesus' position and authority. Even core doctrines like, say, whether the Trinity is a thing, are somewhat less essential. See it as misunderstandings that can be resolved in their own due time: for some this has already happened, for others it happens in the future.
Your point does, however, always remind me of Matthew 23:13 (NWT), where Jesus says "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in". The leadership (GB) of Jehovah's Witnesses is doing exactly that. Indeed, "leaders", because if you give directions that you expect others to follow and threaten with sanctions etc., then you make yourself a leader like the Christ (Mat. 23:8,10-12).
Comment by mariamaria on 2021-03-10 08:54:38
Dear Eric, thank you for article, but I have to join to the question: what is the only ONE hope you mentioned?
For some time I feel pretty distressed to partake or not regarding all the arguments, especially to John 4:48-58 (Jesus' words are addressed to all the crowd who were listening to him in a synagogue in Ca·perʹna·um), but on the other hand he made the covenant only to his apostles during the Meal.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-10 09:44:16
Actually, that "covenant" is a bad translation. What he did was appoint them.
Comment by loveyourneighbor on 2021-03-13 11:58:13
Eric,
Let me preface this by saying I generally agree with the main points of this article. While I’m PIMO and will be unable to attend, i will be with you all in spirit and have arranged to privately partake of the emblems and say 2 prayers of my own.
It seems you’re purporting that the 144,000 and great crowd are one and the same, because John merely “hears” of a 144,000 but sees a great crowd. How do you reconcile that with Rev 14:1, where he sees 144,000?
Thanks for all you do, and I hope the arrangements for your commemoration go smoothly.
PS: I understand you and Tadua have different views on the heavenly hope. I’m not sure where he stands on partaking. But with next week’s (awful) wt article dealing with this subject, it would be really nice to have a review/breakdown written by you in order to display both angles on what’s being written and doled out to JWs.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-13 13:14:25
Good question. I don't know for sure. Revelation is so full of symbolism that we can't be arbitrary with any interpretation. It is for that reason that the Jehovah's Witnesses have sinned by making a hard and fast doctrine affecting the salvation of millions based on an interpretation of a very symbolic passage that is much disputed. I could be wrong about my understanding of the 144,000 being the same as the great crowd. But either way, it doesn't affect anyone salvation. There is no doubt in my mind that the salvation hope currently extended to Christians is the calling to be a child of God which requires us to obey the command to partake. Whether the 144,000 is a special class within the larger class of other sheep as some contend, or whether it is a different representation of the same class, is a topic for discussion, probably best held around a nice fire with a good scotch in one hand.
I haven't put my hand to writing a watchtower review in a very long time. Perhaps I should do so this time.Reply by loveyourneighbor on 2021-03-15 14:48:48
Eric,
Thanks for your response. I agree, it’s all speculation, and does not affect the Christian hope or our responsibility to partake.
I see Tadua put out his review, would love to read one from you too, given the time of year and the ever crucial subject matter.
Reply by a watcher on 2021-03-13 15:48:04
I actually found paragraph 17, Anointed Christians, to be unusually accurate. Often when the literature describes the anointed they put too much emphasis on ruling and judging. This may be what anointed Brothers are interested in but I suspect that anointed Sisters want to go to heaven to be with Jehovah, Jesus, and the other spiritual creatures. Brothers want to be 'kings'. Sisters want to be 'priests'.
Reply by Ad_Lang on 2021-03-15 17:18:09
I am in the midst of writing a lil' piece about this whole "ruling" thing, because there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about it. I hope someone would be happy to drop it here for me.
Just in one sentence, this "ruling" has nothing to do with making laws, but with a system of settling disputes and injustices that actually has it's precedent in the Mosaic Law. Consequence is that the anointed would be active right on earth, not in heaven.
This perspective came up in my mind just in the past few days, but it's such a masterly simple and somewhat exciting concept for me that I have to share it. Just need some time to set out a proper Scriptural basis for it and link up with some appropriate material here that I am drawing from.
Comment by Ad_Lang on 2021-03-10 11:09:57
One of my friends in a different congregation had the midweek Bible Study talk this week and asked for help. It was difficult to help, but during our discussion we could focus on baptism as a requirement, rather than being anointed (which would not even have been discussed at the time that the endnote is considered).
She was very nervous when doing her item, so it didn't go as well as hoped, but she was able to get 1 Cor. 11:25-27 out. Unfortunately, she didn't manage to get the explanation out very well, that being worthy of partaking includes being baptised, accepting the ransom, and living up to Jesus' directions (sticking with him). In my friend's case, the elder is known to have high expectations, so there was a low impact of the criticism that, basically, the separation between anointed and other sheep was not properly highlighted.
It is really one of those moments where it is near impossible to speak up about what you know of the truth without getting some elders on your case.
Comment by Domine Ivimus on 2021-03-10 13:13:49
I love the point that you make in this article, that the 144000 and the great crowd in Revelation 7 are one and the same. Another piece of the jigsaw falls into place. Thank you!
Reply by Nightingale on 2021-03-10 14:21:10
There are so many theories about 144000 but I think it's very much possible that they are the same as the great crowd. Otherwise, how was John able to recognize them in Revelation 14:1? It says: "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."
So to recognized them he must have seen them before. But when was that?
In Revelation 7:4 he had only heard their number, so based on that only he could have not recognized them in chapter 14. But if he connected the 144000 with the great crowd he saw in 7:9 then he would have understood: oh there is the same group of sealed ones I saw earlier, this time on Mount Zion with Jesus.
All this fits with the idea them being kings and priests (Revelation 5:10) and the "royal priesthood" of 1 Peter 2:9. Earlier they were seen in sanctuary (showing them being priests) and now on Mount Zion (where David's throne was, showing them being also kings).Reply by Domine Ivimus on 2021-03-10 15:30:55
Thanks Nightingale, that's a good point about Revelation 14
Reply by Fani on 2021-03-11 06:41:36
Ah merci beaucoup.
Je m'étais toujours demandé comment au chapitre 14 Jean avait pu dénombrer 144000 (pas de voix, juste la vision des 144000).
J'avais oublié qu'il les avait déjà vus (chapitre 7).
Comment aurait il pu les identifier autrement ?
Ton raisonnement paraît tellement simple et évident !
Merci pour toute votre contribution.Reply by Domine Ivimus on 2021-03-12 15:18:22
Yes. The problem is often that we are told what to believe, and then we read the scriptures. Instead of just reading the verses and letting them do their own explaining
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-03-13 14:05:50
That is exactly what it says in next week's Watchtower, paragraph 2 of the article "The Great Crowd and other sheep praise God and Christ. Well, that was what they believed until Rutherford chose to teach his own ideas. That same paragraph insists that the other sheep are loyal Witnesses, another idea of Rutherford. Looks like fun next week.
Comment by NotSure on 2021-03-10 14:36:36
Can you elaborate more on your understanding of Romans 8:16 please? What does it mean that the spirit bears witness with our spirit?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-10 14:44:15
It is the same as when Jesus said the spirit guides us into all the truth. One can recognize that the spirit is at work in one's life, that it is guiding us and leading us to God.
Reply by Ad_Lang on 2021-03-15 21:06:00
As Eric said: you'll recognise it when you find the fruits of the spirit in Gal. 5:22-23 appearing in your life.
To consider a relevant Scriptural reference, have a look at 1 John 3. It is explained in more detail there. Two highlights:
"Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God. The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother" (1 Jo. 3:9,10), and "the one who observes his [Jesus'] commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one. And by the spirit that he gave us, we know that he remains in union with us" (1 Jo. 3:24).
From personal experience I can tell that the effects are visible: I have been dealing with depression for many years, yet many people in town seem to like me somehow and some call me "Smilie". I can point at some natural causes, such as listening to the right music, but have to admit that joy is also a fruit of the spirit. Note that sometimes, the fruitage is visible in others. Like I can notice that by following Jesus' commands in how I deal with people, I can cause people around me to feel good - joy, it is a fruit of the spirit.
I can, actually, recommend that you read the full 1st letter of John with the intention of learning what the role of the spirit is and how our relationship with Jesus through that spirit inevitably affects us. You'll find bits and pieces all over the place. For example, 1 Jo. 2:27 notes that "the anointing that you received from him remains in you ...", so it is something on the inside. The apostle Paul says likewise, that a real Jew "is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code" (Romans 2:28,29).
I'm convinced you will conclude that the witness you receive is based on being renewed on the inside, as you become a whole different kind of person and, at the same time, remain exactly the individual you were before. Let us know what you get out of the passages above!
Comment by Ilja Hartsenko on 2021-03-10 14:41:16
Hi, Eric, thank you for the video, and I will be there, see you soon, brothers and sisters.
Comment by marielle on 2021-03-11 03:33:13
Merci Éric
Pour ce sujet clair et rafraîchissant, simplement en accord avec l’enseignement de Christ. Cela fait du bien.
Je trouve incroyable que le GB fasse un lien dans la WT avril 2003 (qui n’est pas un article d’étude) entre
Jean 6 : 51 « Je suis le pain vivant qui est descendu du ciel. Si quelqu’un mange de ce pain, il vivra pour toujours ; et vraiment, LE PAIN QUE JE DONNERAI, C’EST MA CHAIR POUR LA VIE DU MONDE. » Et le Mémorial en citant en parallèle Matthieu 26 : 26 « Jésus prit un pain et dit une prière de bénédiction. Puis il le rompit+, le donna aux disciples et leur dit : « Prenez, mangez. CECI REPRÉSENTE MON CORPS. «
Tout en prétendant ailleurs, (livre « comment raisonner ») qu’il n’y a pas de lien avec le Mémorial en ce qui concerne les versets suivants Jean 6 : 53-56
Parce que Jésus n’a pas répété ces paroles, lors du repas du Seigneur.
Invraisemblable !
Jésus n’a jamais fait de lien entre le fait de prendre le pain et le vin, et une onction divine particulière, réservée à quelques-uns.
On se demande d’ailleurs, ce qu’est devenue cette onction si particulière, à propos de laquelle nous ne devons pas poser de question, pour des milliers de JW pour qui cela n’avait tout à coup plus de sens en 1935 !
Amitiés fraternelles.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-11 08:33:54
They used to be masters at eisegesis, imposing their own beliefs onto scripture and twisting it. The latest group, the holy eight, could not reason their way out of a paper bag.
Reply by marielle on 2021-03-14 04:38:41
Je reviens sur ce lien fait dans cette WT 2003 p 4 « Ce que le Repas du Seigneur signifie pour vous ».
Entre Luc 22 : 19 et Jean 6 : 51 pour expliquer que ce pain « représente » Jésus-Christ.
Mais l’article ne cite pas le verset en entier. (ils sont coutumiers du fait, lorsque cela les dérange).
« Si quelqu’un mange de ce pain, il vivra pour toujours ».
Le lien étant fait avec le pain et le Repas du Seigneur, ce texte, ne se suffit-il pas à lui-même, pour comprendre que n’importe quelle personne, qu’elle qu’elle soit dans le monde, doit manger ce pain, jusqu’à ce qu’il vienne, comme le dira Paul. I Cor 11 : 26.
Comme tu l’as dit. Aucun texte des Écritures ne justifie qu’une classe de chrétiens devrait se passer les emblèmes de main en main, sans les prendre. Si ce texte existait, il y a bien longtemps qu’ils s’en seraient servi !
Cela sort directement du chapeau de Rutherford.
C’est pour le moins étrange, de la part de ceux qui se réclament du rétablissement du culte pur, les seuls détenteurs de la direction divine.
Comment by Torso Boy on 2021-03-11 04:44:04
Thank you Eric for another well reasoned and scripturally supported article.
You quote John 6:48-51. I think the key word in this passage is “anyone”.
“I am the bread of life. YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that ANYONE may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if ANYONE eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (John 6:48-51)
How can we “eat of this bread” if we don’t actually EAT THE BREAD??
The word “anyone” surely means more than just a select few, or “anointed Christians” as the WT prefers to call them. This is one of the more triggering phrases (for me at least) used by the GB - “Anointed Christians”. Where, oh where, does Jesus (or any of the other NT writers) ever refer to non-anointed Christians?? If there were/are two distinct and different classes, why didn’t our Lord ever talk about them? Why didn’t Paul, or any of the other apostles mention this non-anointed group in their letters? The answer is simple - they don’t exist!
Thanks again Eric for your continued research and hard work in not only preparing and delivering this material, but also giving us all the opportunity to meet together for the Memorial. Hopefully my family and I will be joining you and the other brothers and sisters this year.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-03-11 08:31:36
It is my very great pleasure and thank you for sharing those interesting reasoning points. See you on the 27th.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-03-12 04:15:51
Thank you, Eric, for putting together your article. It is good to get all these points in one place. Sadly, I think it will be very hard for me to be in two places on the 27th. That could result in devastating things for my family. However, we will have bread and wine at home, and will share with you all in spirit at least.
Two things I believe are worthy of note.
it is blatantly clear from Luke 22:19-22 that Judas was present when Jesus shared the bread and wine with the apostles. All reasoning by the Organisation wriggles around words like "evidently" to suggest Judas was not there. Yes, by verse 29, he undoubtedly was not, but there is nothing to indicate that Luke's account was written in the wrong order, as they suggest, or anything equally senseless.
The memorial meal is held annually, just as most memorials are held. Indeed this idea is locked away in Catholic teaching, where all Catholics are expected to share in the eucharist "At Easter or thereabouts". . Paul, on the other hand is not referring (in 1 Corinthians 11:29 onwards) to an annual memorial. In fact the evidence from Justin Martyr's writings is that sharing in the bread and wine was being done weekly, in harmony with 1 Corinthians 11:20 "Whenever you come together".
JWs will hold a memorial, but they will teach a lot of nonsense on that occasion, and, as you have pointed out, and as I have discussed with friends who are still "in", they are denying Jesus direct command by rejecting the bread and the wine.
I would like to say it is all so sad, but it is sad for those who unwittingly are ignoring a clear command of their saviour.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-03-14 18:19:13
I would be kind if whoever gives a negative vote explained what they disagree with. Otherwise how do we learn.
Reply by Ad_Lang on 2021-03-15 17:24:43
My first instance's wild guess is that this "nonsense" you refer to is not expanded. I'd imagine it can come over harsh and crude without anything else added.
I totally understand the conclusion, but on us is the burden to keep having to explain it from start to finish. Just imagine Jesus had to do the same thing, and spent a lot of time teaching people about very simple concepts over and over again. The more exciting stuff was for the private conversations with his closest disciples, and you'll find in the letters that they ended up with an excellent grasp of what Jesus was trying to tell them, but without doubt not before he had spent much effort repeating himself over and over again. It's something we'll probably have to do and get used to as well.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-03-16 05:19:56
Thank you so much for your explanation, Ad Lang. I had thought that the continued emphasis(every year) that only the anointed should partake was "nonsense", in line with Luke's gospel, where "evidently" Judas partook. I appreciate the reminder to be careful when using stronger language, and am more than grateful for your reply.
Reply by Quasblint Xinu on 2021-03-16 10:19:55
Judas partook and it had nothing to do with a promise for a kingdom. Jesus made the promise for a kingdom later, after they had had a fight of who was the greatest, prompted by Jesus' revelation that one of them was a traitor. It was probably during their heated argument that Judas disappeared. Jesus made the promise of a kingdom completely separate from passing the emblems. Where the Watchtower goes wrong is in pretending that "the anointed" are a special class of Christians, reserved for the heavenly kingdom. So, they have to falsely emphasize this distinction each year and in the process cause the majority to reject the proper meaning of the Memorial in favor of their manufactured "for those chosen to be anointed kings only."
Watchtower has introduced the word covenant in Luke 22 where it doesn't exist in the Greek text. Furthermore, in their Greek NWT translation for Greek speakers, they actually introduce the word "diatheke" (covenant) in the text, where the NT Greek doesn't even have it! Maybe this does not so much deserve the label "nonsense," but "blatantly dishonest."Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2021-03-18 12:41:14
May I quote from the Insight Book, page 130:-
Immediately Judas left the group. A comparison of Matthew 26:20-20-29 and John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal. Luke's presentation of this incident evidently is not in strict chronological order.
That is what I felt was "nonsense".
There is nothing to indicate that Luke's account was not the order of events, so the reader must examine the other accounts to see if they will help.
(1) Matthew 26:20-29 begins by Jesus saying that "one of you will betray me". Judas even asked "It is not I is it, Rabbi ?". Jesus then offers the bread and wine to his disciples. No evidence here that Judas left at any particular point.
(2) John 13 :21-30 starts with Jesus saying that " one of you will betray me". Judas is identified to John, and then leaves after receiving a piece of bread.
Unfortunately, John, writing much later then the others, does not mention Jesus passing the bread and wine, so it will require some guesswork to conclude , from his account, that Judas was dismissed before the establishment of the Lord's evening meal.
Paul's words at 1 Corinthians:23-26 are the same as in Luke's gospel, so it would not be unreasonable to conclude that both Luke and Paul got their information from the same source, or from the other.. But that proves very little.
In view of the inconclusive evidence that Judas left before the Lord's evening meal was established, I would have thought that we should defer to Luke's account, where the order of events is clear.
I hope this is not stating the obvious.
It is also worthy of note that the Insight book states "evidently", an word which (when used in JW publications) often means this is a conclusion arrived at with remarkably little evidence.
Love to seekers of truth.Reply by Quasblint Xinu on 2021-03-18 21:00:29
I'm fully in agreement with what you said, brother. Watchtower is very much off the mark to think that Luke, who researched everything so thoroughly from multiple eye-witnesses, would not be writing in chronological order. Luke also was a companion of Paul, who testified that he himself had heard the gospel from the Lord. There is no reason to think that the account in Luke is unchronological, except in the wishful thinking of Watchtower where they want to see their own doctrine confirmed by the account. This is a good example of eisegesis. They want Judas to already have left because Judas taking part doesn't fit their narrative, so they want to change the order of events. It is this dishonesty of Watchtower that I was confirming. Sorry if I wasn't clear that I agreed with you.
Comment by Paolo on 2021-03-27 09:03:41
Thank you for the invitation Eric. My wife and I join the zoom-meeting from the Netherlands.
Comment by Donna on 2021-03-27 21:04:15
Can’tfind a way to log in to the memorial