[this post was contributed by Alex Rover]
One of the first questions when I first realized my election as a chosen child of God, adopted as his son and called to be Christian, was: "why me"? Meditating upon the story of Joseph's election can help us avoid the trap of seeing our election as something of a triumph over others. Election is a call to serve others, and a blessing for the individual at the same time.
The blessing of a Father is a significant inheritance. According to Psalm 37:11 and Matthew 5:5, there is such an inheritance in store for the meek. I cannot help but imagine that the personal qualities of Isaac, Jacob and Joseph must have played an important role in their calling. If there is truth to this measure, then there is no allowance for a smug triumphalism over others who are not chosen. After all, election is meaningless unless there are others who are not elect. [1]
Joseph was in fact elected twice, once by his father Jacob, and once by his heavenly Father, as evidenced by his two early dreams. It is this last election that matters most, since humanity's choices are often superficial. Rachel was Jacob's true love, and her children were his most beloved, hence Joseph was favored by Jacob for what appears to be superficial reasons at first - never mind young Joseph's personality. [2] Not so with God. In 1 Samuel 13:14 we read that God chose David "after his own heart" - not after his human appearance.
In the case of Joseph, how do we understand the concept of how God chooses people with the image of an inexperienced youngster perhaps indiscreetly bringing bad reports of his brothers to his Father? (Genesis 37:2) In God's providence, he knows the man Joseph will become. It is this Joseph who is shaped to become the man after God's heart. [3] This must be how God elects, think of the transformations of Saul and Moses. The "narrow path" of such transformation is one of enduring hardship (Matthew 7:13,14), hence the need for meekness.
Consequently, when we are called to partake of Christ and join the ranks of chosen children of our Heavenly Father, the question of "why me", does not require us to look for supreme qualities within us presently, other than the willingness to be shaped by God. There is no reason for elevating ourselves over our brothers.
Joseph's moving story of endurance throughout slavery and imprisonment illustrates how God elects and transforms us. God may have chosen us before the dawn of time, but we cannot be sure of our election until we experience his correction. (Hebrews 12:6) That we respond to such correction with meekness is crucial, and verily makes it impossible to harbor a smug religious triumphalism in our hearts.
I am reminded of the words in Isaiah 64:6 "And now, O Lord, thou art our father, and we are clay: and thou art our maker, and we all are the works of thy hands." (DR) This so beautifully illustrates the concept of choosenness in the story of Joseph. The elect allow God to shape them as truly masterful works of his hands, people after "God's own heart".
[1] Relative to the countless children of Adam who will be blessed, a limited amount are called, offered as first fruits of the harvest to bless the others. The first fruits are offered to the Father so that many more can be blessed. Not everyone can be first fruits, or there would be none left to bless through them.
However, let it be clear that we are not promoting a view that only a tiny group is called. Many are indeed called. (Matthew 22:14) How we respond to such calling, and how we live according to it, entirely affects our final sealing as elect. It is a narrow road, but not a hopeless road.
[2] Surely Jacob loved Rachel for more than her appearance. Love based on appearance would not have lasted long, and her qualities made her a “woman after his own heart.” The Scriptures leave little doubt about it that Joseph was Jacob's favorite son because he was the firstborn of Rachel. Consider just one reason: After Joseph was presumed dead by his father, Judah spoke of Benjamin, the only other child of Rachel:
Genesis 44:19 My lord asked his servants, ‘Do you have a father or a brother?’ 20 And we answered, ‘We have an aged father, and there is a young son born to him in his old age. His brother is dead, and he is the only one of his mother’s sons left, and his father loves him.’
This gives us some insight into the election of Joseph as the favorite son. In fact, Jacob loved this only remaining son of Rachel so much that even Judah thought Benjamin's life was worth more to his Father than his own. What kind of personality would Benjamin need to possess to eclipse that of the self-sacrificing Judah - assuming that his personality was the main driving factor in Jacob's decision?
[3] This is reassuring for young ones who seek to partake of the memorial supper. Even though we may feel unworthy, our calling is between us and our heavenly Father alone. The account of young Joseph reinforces the idea that by Divine Providence even those who are perhaps not yet made whole in the new person can still be called, since God makes us fit through a refining process.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Katrina on 2015-06-24 09:06:41
So those elected are favorites, but not because they are first born? but because of their qualities, how many first born proved faithful? one two maybe?
I don't like the idea of favorites it creates a them and us group of Christians.
Who are the anointed going to rule over or serve is maybe a better word then, other Christians, or the resurrected ones?
We are all Sons and Daughters of God.
And I am not to certain that the 144,000 are literal.Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-06-24 10:24:20
Hi Katrina,
Not every human is a son and daughter of God, otherwise the concept of adoption as sons and daughters would be meaningless. Why adopt your own children? (He does not adopt the Lost Son, but rather welcomes him back in the family). We are separated from God through sin. God is Holy and cannot commune with that which is unholy. Redemption is required. Yet redemption through the seed.
Why was Israel chosen among the nations? Why did God not just call for a world government? Why apparently favor one over the other?
The words "elect", "chosen", "called", "first fruits" are not my words which I have injected in the Scriptures. It MEANS something that the Father chooses us. Yet as I point out in the article, it's not based on our qualities but based on what God sees in us (our heart) according to his purpose:
1Co 1:27
For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
Eph 1: 4-6
he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
God already knows not everyone will be a true follower in faith of his son Christ. Yet all who are born again are his sons and daughters, not some limited and literal 144,000.
The Father gives many the chance to become sons and daughters. We ourselves don't know who God has in mind to work out his purpose for humankind, so we treat everyone without bias and share the message freely with everyone. Then the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
Not many who say Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven - the churches and congregations have many of those who appear to be Christians but are not of the Spirit. (Mat 7:22)
We don't concern ourselves with counting or judging who is and who isn't. Christ is in charge. We are concerned with making our own calling sure.
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin.
In the article, we see how Joseph had to go through many tribulations before he became the man God used for his purpose of serving the entire world, saving them from famine. Jehovah saw in the young man the capacity to become that person.
If you are called "anointed -why me?", then God has a purpose for you. It's up to us what we do with the talents he will entrust us with, we are not to trivialize our calling. It is special, but it does not make us superior. We also understand that election is a calling to serve others.
One way to look at it, is that God so loves the non-elect, that he has elected his special son to save the non-elect. God offers Joseph up to enslavement and enprisonment to save his family from the famine. God offers up Christ to ridicule and death to save humankind. God decided Christ should not be alone, and appropriated he should have a bride. The Father elects the wife of his Son. The Father pays the bride-price. Through this marriage the kingdom blessings will be distributed to humanity. The elect or chosen ones, likewise have to go through suffering in order to serve others with divine love.
1 Peter 2:22
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-24 11:32:21
We know that Jehovah is impartial. (Acts 10:34) However, we also know that some are chosen and some rejected. (Mt 24:40, 41) Therefore, the election process cannot be based on favoritism, but on some other basis.
Comment by Katrina on 2015-06-24 12:24:13
I agree Meliti and thank you Alex for your scriptures, I do have a problem with the favouritism thing being from a large family one was always favourite with my father and mother, but made most of us feel not up to par so to speak. But it is different with Jehovah, I know.
Comment by Skye on 2015-06-24 13:07:48
John 3:3 "Jesus replied, Very truly I tell you, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again." It is being born again, (a spiritual rebirth) that makes us a Christian - one of the elect. This rebirth comes through the seed of the Gospel "This is the meaning of the parable: the seed is the word of God" Luke 8:11
(The Gospel is the good news of the Kingdom of God)
"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever. And this is the word that was preached to you." 1Peter 1:22-25
Mark 4:10-12 "When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, The secret of the Kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven." Therefore, if they did understand, that would mean they could repent and be forgiven.
And therefore repentance and forgiveness is dependant on an understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom as taught by Jesus Christ and the NT. (Mark 1:14,15; Luke 4:43)
Comment by waytochange on 2015-06-25 01:52:06
i see everything here form posts to comments very watchtowerish... hey guys i just read that there's these pyramid on a dwarf planet Ceres, could it be aliens?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-25 09:46:31
Rather than engage in vague insults, why don't you point out what you object to. From your comment it seems to me that you haven't really read the articles on this site.
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-06-26 04:17:54
It's funny but I thought of the calling the opposite, "why not me?"
My JW indoctrination had me constantly deflecting the calling , something I believe is deliberately contrived by the GB, I was just looking through the old song book, song 142 the first line says"oh guard your heart you sons of god if you would win life's prize" this sentiment is only possible if one is seeking to be a son,contrary to what's presented in the WT literature .
I can't help but think of Jesus words that many would seek to be in the kingdom , but ultimately it's God who will chose,your calling is to get in the race not watch it from the sidelines .
Comment by qspf on 2015-06-26 07:39:33
My entry of a few days ago is not here. Was it removed?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-26 08:22:43
I just checked both the Trash and the Spam folder but didn't find any posts from you. So it wasn't removed.
Comment by qspf on 2015-06-26 13:00:42
To Alex, Katrina and Meleti,
I am well aware that this topic engenders a lot of strong, entrenched opinions and sometimes, hard feelings, and I would not wish to add to that. I won't debate what I'm about to say, because I told Meleti I wouldn't do that on this forum so as not to be a distraction, but I feel what follows is a legitimate response to the original article. As Meleti and some others are aware, I am firmly convinced that no one is going to heaven.
Because of coming to that conclusion, I find the Bible makes much more sense to me. For instance, why would God proclaim that the earth where man and woman were placed was "very good", and yet arrange for mankind's salvation to depend on some (or all?) faithful persons being required to permanently abandon that 'very good' home? If not everyone goes, what is to become of those not going? Death? "Languishing" on earth? If everyone goes to heaven, what it to become of the earth, and the many scriptural promises that the righteous would reside forever on the earth? I have read no good explanation of this.
Why would God choose to change a person's very nature from human to a non-corporeal spirit being, something that they have no possible way of knowing about, understanding or preparing themselves for? God clearly indicated that when angels changed their fundamental nature from spirit to physical, it was wrong. To me, it seems equally wrong to go the other way. We are human, made for this earth. Why would we abandon it with such glee? Why would God so easily take away the gift He gave us of this world? Suppose a person were faithful and righteous, but didn't WANT to go to heaven. Is God going to force us? Will He 'make us an offer we can't refuse'? What if a person destined to rule as a king didn't WANT to be a king - or simply wasn't "king material"? Even if they wanted to say no? What if we have family; are we going to be forced to leave them behind in order to accept this heavenly 'honor' if we neither wanted it nor asked for it?
If the Bible clearly held out this hope, it would have said so. After all, we have many places in the NT that shows Christ returned to heaven, such as the excellent passages in Hebrews, where it clearly says Christ entered into heaven itself. Yet, no such passage exists in the Bible to describe that for anyone else. Not a single sentence exists that says, "if a Christian dies faithful, they will be resurrected to life as a spirit person and reside in heaven." You cannot point out a single verse that says that in plain English, for none exists. The many passages that do discuss heaven can arguably be shown to be symbolic, or part of a vision or revelation, or perhaps relate to a spiritual awakening that already occurred. (It is beyond the scope of my response here to actually argue such points, but it's possible to do.)
Further, if accept some of the WT doctrine that the "144,000" are to be kings and priests, why do so in heaven? God does not NEED the help and advice of resurrected humans to rule mankind from the heavens. But WE will need the help of wise HUMAN leaders when the day comes to restore the earth to a paradise. Imagine: What good would a bunch of non-corporeal spirit beings be to ME, if I am on earth trying to make the right decisions on how to restore a piece of land or a waterway to clean and perfect conditions? I would not need a spirit - I would need to talk to someone and get wise advice. THAT'S what those "kings" would be good for - here on earth, not in heaven.
Even yet further, suppose these "anointed" ones really went to heaven. They only have the job for 1,000 years, and then everyone, including Christ, turns over direct rulership to God. They would not be needed as kings over the earth any more, and God does not need their advice or counsel either. What would be the point of them continuing to exist for all eternity as spirits, when their services are no longer required?
Finally, we must be prepared to face the possibility that the entire concept of people being transformed into spirits to live in the heavens is nothing but a teaching of demons. After all, the Serpent said to Eve, (1) you will not die, and (2) you will be like God. In what material way is that concept ANY DIFFERENT from the doctrine of people being resurrected as non-corporeal spirit persons ("you will be like God") who are immortal ("you will not die")? No matter how you interpret the scriptures on this matter, we cannot deny the fact that SATAN SAID IT FIRST - not God, and not Jesus.
Now, if we get rid of all that, and accept that mankind will live on the earth and no where else, and that no one is going to heaven, then everything makes sense. The "144,000" will have a special role as HUMAN rulers, but only for a temporary period of 1,000 years. At the end of that, they will still be the humans they always were, but would no longer have the job of being administrators of earth's affairs.
Best of all, if no one goes to heaven, there is no reason to separate people into two groups, one being "God's sons" and the other being "God's friends".
(Just to be clear, Christ unquestionably went to heaven. It is just that no one else did, and no one else will.)
If we accept Christ as our ransom on our behalf, he can be everyone's Mediator, and God is both our Father and our Friend.
Consider what that means: No separation, no divisions, no "second-class Christians", no one without a Mediator. It is true that the "chosen" ones will have a special administrative role on earth for a while, but they will always be human and will be our companions, and we will work together with them. They are the earthly "temple" - and all of us will be "in" the temple, because we will work with them, side by side, hand in hand, as partners in restoring the earth.
Perhaps it is true that they have Christ as a mediator in a special sense, because they will act as rulers for a limited time on the earth, but we all have Christ as a Mediator in the more important sense.
A mediator is not just like a "lawyer" negotiating a contract (or in this case, a covenant for a kingdom). A mediator also acts to resolve disputes when there are disagreements or disharmony between two parties. All of mankind needs Christ as a mediator, whether they are destined to act as rulers over mankind for a time or not, because being born in sin, we all are out of harmony with our righteous and perfect Father. We all need that Mediator, and for the WT to deny that to us is not only unwarranted and cruel, but it goes beyond what is written, so far beyond that it is tantamount to blasphemy.
Because we are all together, there is no reason to segregate people, for instance, by allowing one group to partake of memorial emblems and denying that to another group.
The churches of Christendom have it wrong, and the WT has it wrong. No one is going to heaven. We are staying here, where we belong, where God told us it was very good, and where it will be very good again. This is not a consolation prize, and we are not 'runner-ups' in a contest where the losers take second place. We are all in this together. That is a good thing, not a bad one.Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-06-26 13:33:56
hi qspf,
with all respect to your viewpoint, I don't see it having any bearing on the arguments in this article. I don't recall mentioning anywhere in my article the destination (heaven, earth) of the elect. Nevertheless, thanks for your contribution and I will read it a few times more to understand where you are coming from. I recently met someone else who has the same belief, so please don't take these words as an argument with your point of view.
Your penultimate paragraph:
"Because we are all together, there is no reason to segregate people, for instance, by allowing one group to partake of memorial emblems and denying that to another group."
I agree that WE should not segregate. Humans disallowing others to express their relationship with Christ and the Father at the memorial is the very definition of lording over your brothers, and a crime against God himself.
Yet this does not have any bearing on the Biblical topic of election. Some evangelical churches say .. "pray once to Jesus and you are saved forever, no matter what". We don't believe in that here. Yet don't you think that a viewpoint that all people should take from the symbols, EVEN IF THEY DONT BELIEVE IN CHRIST, is even more extreme?
One side of the pendulum it's wrong to restrict people and create a super-class (Jehovah's Witnesses), on the other side it's also wrong to trivialize our election and pretend that a calling or choosenness does not exist. Our election is something very precious. The truth is balanced, and in the middle of these extremes.
If everyone is chosen, then what part of the harvest is there left to bless by means of the first-fruits (or: kingdom, in case you believe first-fruits only applies to the first century Christians)? What about the people of the nations, what about those who are dead without ever knowing Christ? For election to have any meaning, some won't be elect.
Indeed only very FEW will be saved on this narrow road of election, but MANY will be saved through the blood of Christ and kingdom blessings. Artificially limiting the amount of saved to a fixed number is WRONG, but artificially increasing it to include everyone is wrong as well.
Reply by Vox Ratio on 2015-06-27 08:34:37
Hi qspf,
I wonder if a consideration of the “new creation” might help here as well.
Although a new creation is what its name suggests – that is, something new – it is not something altogether unfamiliar to us. In light of other beings having usurped their divinely mandated boundaries, wouldn't it be a crushing blow to the enemy if a new creation was permitted the very prerogatives that these other beings were denied? Of course, this is speculation. Yet, with this is mind, perhaps God gives to others the privilege that some thought to steal for themselves (cf. Ps. 127:1).
To be sure, those who are a new creation are already the only approved creation permitted to straddle the divide between both the physical and the spiritual. They move about in the flesh, but they walk by spirit. They are conducted in the flesh, but they are led by the spirit. They are bound in the flesh, but they are in union with the spirit (Ro. 8:4,5,14).
Nevertheless, the spirit that operates within them is revealed by Paul to be only a token of the promise to come (Eph. 1:13f). Paul was speaking plainly here. Just as all seeds inter their future form but cannot show it until germination, so the spirit interred within the Christian will only find its future form when realised through a glorified resurrection (1 Co. 15:36ff). From your previous discussions here, these are just some of the considerations which I know that you've also given much thought to.
It's unfortunate that the concept of “ruler-ship” has come to have such negative and oppressive connotations today, particularly since the ruler-ship bestowed upon conquering Christians will be anything but that. In fact, given he NT portrayal of discipleship, it seems more natural to think that rather than the people being given to them, they will instead be given to the people. These ruling ones will serve the people, shepherd the people, teach the people, and heal the people; doing so with the express intent of restoring them to a full life and to a properly related fellowship with God. Indeed, the goal of such a restoration may ostensibly have its ultimate purpose in what might be considered to be the great equalisation of humanity – one that would see all humans raised to the same level as each other, eventually to where God becomes all things to all people (1 Co. 15:28).
As I'm sure you know, Sir Anthony Buzzard is a prominent and outspoken proponent of the type of restorative destiny that you appear to be advocating. I myself am sympathetic to the attempt to harmonise the Abrahamic promises with the revealing of the sons of God, but I also perceive that imposing only a literal interpretation on these promises – and their ensuing consequences – is not without its problems either.
I take your sensitivity to the consciences of others concerning this issue as a breath of fresh air, qspf. While we may not always agree here, we can always be sharpened by the whetstone of others.Reply by qspf on 2015-06-27 10:34:43
Hello Vox Ratio,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As to what exactly the "new creation" is, we have to face that the Bible's account of this tells us very little, and most attempts to understand it end up in speculation. With this in mind, I can tell you how it seems to me.
I see the new creation as follows: When anointed ones of the past are resurrected, that occurs on the earth, and they will be full-fledged humans, no more and no less. However, they will be "transformed in a twinkling of an eye" in the sense that when they are resurrected, they will immediately be perfect in mind, body and spirit, as Jesus was on earth, and as Adam and Eve were at first. They will not have to "wait" any length of time, and certainly not 1,000 years, to reach perfection. Since no person born in sin has ever been transformed into a perfect and righteous person in this way before, this would unquestionably be a "new creation" in every sense of the word. Being a new creation does require going to heaven.
Even though they will be on earth, they will be "with" Jesus. How? Jesus said at his resurrection he would be "with" his followers, even though he was in heaven, and they were on earth. He was "with" them because he approved and supported his followers. The same will be true in the new system.
But further, it was said that Jesus would return the same way he left. He left the earth after his resurrection in a (temporary) materialized body, since the human body he was born with from Mary was put to death and could never live again - otherwise the ransom sacrifice would have been taken back. If we look at the word "parousia", its main meaning is "the visit of a king or ruler at the beginning of his reign". With that understanding, Jesus could return like he left - in a materialized body, to temporarily visit the earth and to help guide the 144,000 class to be good rulers. When that visit was over, Jesus would return to the heavens, likely not to return again. (An interesting aside from this is that, when Jesus returns to visit, he really CAN drink wine with his apostles who will be resurrected to life on earth, drinking it "new again" in the new system - literally - exactly as he said he would.)
As for the anointed "walking by spirit", it seems to me that for them to receive divine guidance, they might become "spiritually attuned" to God, perhaps in the same way that the prophets of old were, so that God could directly communicate messages and guidance to them. Only, these messages would not need to be symbolic and cryptic, but would be provided in plain language that was clearly understood by those earthly rulers, just as God spoke to Moses "face to face, and not by riddles".
Well, that's how I see it.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-27 11:04:13
I see the point that qspf is making, but what Vox Ratio says resonates with me more, as it seems to allow for much of what qspf believes but also answers the questions which a belief in a fleshly-body-only resurrection fails to answer. I think that a study of the use of "heaven" and "heavens" would be fruitful in this regard. For example, the phrase "kingdom of heaven" does not appear in the NWT, but "kingdom of the heavens" does, some 33 times. Why is heaven sometimes plural?
However, we are in the comment section here which isn't really set up for a discussion. Nevertheless, this is a worthwhile topic deserving of our attention. To that end, I've opened up a new topic on Discuss the Truth here.Reply by Skye on 2015-06-27 16:34:58
"Then Jesus said to them, Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him. And suppose the one inside answers, Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can't get up and give you anything. I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will sure get up and give you as much as you need.
So I say to you: ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks the door will be opened.
Which of you fathers, if your son asks you for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give holy spirit to those who ask him!" Luke 11:5-13
Reply by bible_truths on 2016-05-24 21:30:00
Qspf, you are absolutely correct!
There is a bit more to the picture that i can elaborate on too, but you pretty much have hit the head on the nail and have said pretty much everything i was going to.
Its really upbuilding to find others who share the same views as myself.
Ive been looking on the internet for ages, as it almost has felt like I was the only one who felt this way.
If i was to say this to any brothers, i would be D/F and labelled apostate.
I really do wonder if others have similar views but are too afraid to share their views.
Comment by BN on 2015-06-26 13:33:13
For me it is like this; they are going to be with the Anointed One as Anointed ones.BUT that is NOT to stay in heavens: THEY are the new heavens ON EARTH. They are the firstborn of the new creation, helping all the others of God's children. They are the branches on the true vine; the rest of us are the fruit.... They are the ones coming WITH the Anointed One ... down to earth. They are the ones who judge, BY THE WAY THEY THEMSELVES BEHAVE, THE WAY THEY MANAGE THEIR GIFTS, THE WAY THEY THEMSELVES TREATH OTHERS AND SERVE THEIR MASTER AS SLAVES. AND THE WAY THEY LET THEMSELVES FORM AS CLAY.. NOT IRON... Many are called but FEW are chosen OF THESE. Many called ones will behave as iron, few as clay!
Comment by menrov on 2015-06-29 07:38:16
Thanks Alex, an interesting topic. One that can create division. However, m view is that ELECT has nothing to do with being more than another. In my opinion it has to do with condition of the heart. Anyone with the right motives (the meek, the peacemakers etc) are elect to be saved and receive eternal life. But being elect requires responsibility to behave / live in such a way that is justifies you elect status. Like with the illustration by Jesus regarding the wedding for which many were invited (elect) but about all declined their invitation (neglected appreciation for being elected) and in the end, all who were not invited are invited (Matt. 22:1-10).
One definition (according to Webster) for Elect: In theology, chosen as the object of mercy; chosen, selected or designated to eternal life).
In summary, I believe that all believers are considered elected but need to show appreciation for being elect as the invite can be taken away and be given to those who originally were not considered to be elected (compare Samaritan woman at the well).
Comment by messenger on 2019-03-13 01:42:17
I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that many people believe that beings in the spiritual realm do not have solid bodies. That's not what the scriptures state when describing things in the spiritual realm. Those things are always described having solid bodies. Take as just one example the four living creatures. But that's only one example. Everything there is described as solid, including God and Christ.
The spirit realm consists of dimensions our solid bodies cannot enter, with solid things that can enter and exist there. As a comparison we are like a flat two dimensional dot that cannot enter our three dimensional world. Or 4 dimensional if you count time as a dimension as Einstein did. Our bodies are solid even though an intelligent two dimensional being couldn't percieve that about us. Scriptures also show those with bodies that live in the spirit realm can enter our three, or four, dimensional world.
The Bible states the elect go into the spirit realm receiving new bodies that can live there and come back and mingle with 3/or 4 dimensional beings on Earth. I have read here someone stated there is no scripture stating that. I have read tons of scriptures stating that people enter the spirit realm. But that poster claims Christ clearly went there, but no scriptures speak of any other persons doing that. What about Christ telling his disciples that he was coming again to get them, so that where he would be they would be? What about him saying he was going to prepare a place for THEM? And in the house of my father there are many abodes? What about meeting him in the air? Air metaphorically used as the spiritual heavens.
And there is no way the new heavenly city that comes down out of heaven as an administration over the Earth is nearly 1,400 feet tall, and yet is a three dimensional object built of steel, wood, and cement on Earth. It has to be what we call a spiritual object. It's solid with spiritual materials. And to the ones that live there it is solid, even though the 3 dimensional humans can not see it.
The important matter is that we accept Christ. He and his Father will choose any special work (annointed) they want for us. Look, as we have freedom to do things now, so will we then even while doing the work they want us to do. And if you go to heaven you'll come here too. New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to Earth.
Have any of you been contacted by God in a manner similar to his contacting people in the first century, so that you know he wants to use you for a special work?
Comment by messenger on 2019-03-13 01:52:47
Excuse me. In my comment I said that heavenly Jerusalem is said to be almost 1,400 feet tall..
THAT WAS A MISTAKE. HEAVENLY JERUSALEM IS SAID TO BE ALMOST 1,400 MILES TALL. That excludes it from being a structure built of steel, wood, and cement. It is spiritual, built of materials humans cannot percieve.