[Author: Alex Rover, Editor: Andere Stimme]
On February 9, 2014, just over a year ago, I wrote to Meleti:
I'd enjoy a forum like the well moderated jwtalk.net but with the liberty to put scripture before organization as the main difference. But it's a lot of work to maintain, and you will need a group of people that are lovers of truth and hate true apostasy (falling away from Christ) to keep a forum within its purposed boundaries.
Just days earlier, I had discovered this blog. Perhaps like you, I immediately recognized it as something different and I wanted to help. Amazing what a difference just a year can make!
We belong to Christ. In this world, and even among our JW brothers and sisters, admitting this fact requires courage. It takes courage to say we belong to Christ in school, at work, and in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Jehovah’s Organization
Consider the definition of organization:
an organization is an organized body of people with a particular purpose, such as an association.
So, how do Jehovah's Witnesses prove that God uses an organization? In the publication Reasoning from the Scriptures, under the topic “Organization” and the subheading “Does the Bible show that true Christians would be an organized people?”, you may notice the final Scripture quoted is 1 Peter 2:9, 17. As quoted in the last paragraph, it says:
“But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
The scripture quote is followed by a parenthetical statement:
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.
Is that true? A quick trip to the Merriam-Webster dictionary confirms that an association is:
an organized group of people who have the same interest, job, etc.
However, the New World Translation is the only widely distributed translation using the expression “association of brothers” here. A more common translation is “brotherhood” (ESV) or “family of believers” (NIV). Whether by design or by an inadvertent quirk of translation, the insertion of a synonym for organization into the NWT distorts the biblical description of the early Christian congregation in a way that serves the interests of the JW leadership.
Granted, the footnote in the New World Translation states: "Lit., 'brotherhood.' Gr., a·del·phoʹte·ti". But in choosing to translate and apply this passage as they do, Jehovah's Witnesses use sacred scripture to promote a highly misleading idea of what Christian fellowship entails.
A Family of Believers
When a Jehovah’s Witness thinks of the expression “the Organization”, it is synonymous with “Jehovah’s Organization”, which should mean “Jehovah’s Family of Believers”. In a family, there is the Father, who carries all authority as head. So we are a family of brothers and sisters with our Heavenly Father in common. Christ is part of that family, since he is a son of God; he is our brother, obedient to the Father. Christ said: “not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42). These were the words of a true son of God.
The Father said in Exodus 4:22: “Israel is my firstborn son”. Jesus Christ is the root of Israel:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!” (Revelation 22:16)
We become part of the family of believers through our union with Christ,
“and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17 NASB)
It is a worldwide brotherhood, not because we are part of "God's organization", but because we are adopted as children of the one Father, becoming the Israel of God.
What God has Joined Together
“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31)
We are not just children of the Father. We are the body of Christ, joined to him and placed under his headship.
“This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms far above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and he gave him to the church as head over all things. Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:20-23)
Upon Christ’s glorification in 33 AD, the Father gave Christ to the family of believers, with a headship as a husbandly owner. Now that Christ is given to us by the Father as our head, we are joined together by the Father himself. Let no man tear this union apart. It is the will of the Father that we have no other head but Christ, and we are to place no other headship over us than that of him.
“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me” (Matthew 10:37)
Submitting to the authority of a stranger is akin to idolatry and prostitution. The whore of Babylon the Great is a prominent example. Many religions and false Christs are actively seeking to replace Jesus Christ as our head. Submitting ourselves to such men’s rule is a perversion.
“Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” (1 Corinthians 6: 15-16)
Being organized is not bad. Associating is not bad. But if an association ever starts luring people after themselves and away from Christ, then they have become part of the great prostitute that is Babylon the Great. What our Father joined together—ourselves and Christ—let NO man tear apart!
Association, a Human Need
Jehovah has a group of people—a family, and he is the head. Jesus has a group of people—his body, and he is the head.
These groups of people are the same; the Father gave this group to the Son as his bride class. We wish to associate with each other. How else can we show love for each other and encourage one other? (Compare Proverbs 18:1) We have a human need to spend time with fellow believers. Take Paul for example:
“For God is my witness that I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:8)
Before Rutherford, congregations were made up of local members of the family of believers who voluntarily associated together in Christian freedom. Until recently, the buildings they gathered in were owned by the local brothers and sisters. Today however, there is no difference between the Catholic Church and Jehovah’s Witnesses in that regard. The buildings are owned by a central human leadership claiming to represent Christ, and association depends on obedience to the ordinances of this channel.
We need good association. But perhaps we feel, like Elijah in 1 Kings 19:3, 4, all alone. Since discovering Beroean Pickets, I no longer feel alone. There is a healthy variety of views, as demonstrated on the forum. Yes, we do not always agree about particular teachings. But we are united in Christ and in love. In many ways discussthetruth.com has proven that it is possible to show love to one another despite our differences. We have proven that it is possible to be organized without impeding freedom of conscience and expression.
When new visitors come to our forums, they often express happiness and surprise that such a tone of respect and love is possible despite the differences. It is easy to love those who agree with you on everything, but the best friendships are between people who respect each other’s sincerely held differences.
Association, a Growing Need
Just like you, I searched the web for some years before discovering this loving association. There are now atheist ex-JW’s attacking the Governing Body at every move, without offering anything upbuilding in return. There are self-proclaimed prophets, watchmen, two-witnesses, prophets and prophetesses who offer a “better interpretation”, and usually they will view others who accept their views as saved. There are even some JW scholars who might keep the structure of the organization so long as some of the teachings are tweaked.
In 2013, Beroean Pickets had 12,000 unique visitors with 85,000 views. By 2014, that number had climbed to nearly 33,000 with 225,000 views. Despite publishing 136 articles in 2014 (about one article every 3 days), I don’t think the articles are the main reason why so many of our visitors keep returning. I believe you are the reason.
These numbers reveal a growing need of many who believe in Jehovah to associate in Christian love and freedom with others who value truth. We have no interest in forming a new religion, yet we firmly believe in the human need for good association.
Since we now regularly exceed 1,000 views on a single day, we start showing an impact in the search engines. As more and more new visitors find our uplifting association of free brothers and sisters in Christ, we have a shared responsibility toward these, to share the Good News with them in the freedom of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)
With warm love and respect,
Alex Rover
Archived Comments
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Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-05 10:31:55
Alex,
As is the norm of this site, yet another clear, simple and concise explanation.Christians can associate and up-build one another, without the need of an over arching central core composed of self serving individuals.
Churchianity is not Christianity.
I find the mistake JW's and other groups make, is to believe that to be organised, implies the need of an organisation.
To illustrate. A team of football players play in organised way. Everybody on the pitch has a designated place and the game can be played in organised fashion. However just because the players are organised, does not mean they now need an organisation.
To use another analogy:
In some residential communities form neighbourhood ‘watch schemes’ where residents may come to agreement about property protection issues. They may even dispatch representatives to local authorities yet it does not automatically follow that they are ruling the neighbourhood. The whole neighbourhood might not follow the issuances to the extent that first century Christian would accord the apostles, yet that can be attributed to the nature of the community rather than the formation of government. This is what Christ meant when he made a distinction between the kinds of leadership the nations engaged in.
In a like manner, Paul gave instructions on how to be organised when we are gathered together (1Co 14:40,1 Tim 3:8 etc)
However to read into these scriptures a need for a central authority is mistaken and shows a lack of trust in God's arrangement. God set up a Body (with Christ as Head), which all Christians are to become part of. He did not set up a HQ in Rome, Salt Lake City or Brooklyn New York for members to look to, for guidance. Christians should only look to the Head, the Christ.
So I look forward to this upcoming Association. I hope different opinions can be aired in true love and freedom. However there will be a need for winsome moderation of comments and views. You have a difficult act on your hand, but one that I'm sure will be blessed.
Comment by arover2014 on 2015-07-05 10:57:54
The early writings record show how Charles Taze Russell felt about a formal organization or church. See Studies in the Scriptures Volume 3 Your Kingdom Come, where he clearly states that true believers cannot be gathered in a single church organization unless Christ returns first, for every pastor of such organization needs to admit that not 100% of his sheep are truly sheep of Christ. Therefore we need tolerance and avoid sectarianism.
Those were his words. They are etched with ink on paper as evidence for our generation to see how far Jehovah's Witnesses today can stray from the original intent.
Let our own words today likewise stand the test of time, that if over the years we might deviate from our intent, lose our freedom in Christ and lord over each other, we would in fact become another sect, part of the great harlot.
At this time, I'd like to point your attention to the history page of the Christian Believers Fellowship. http://www.cbfchurch.com Notice how Satan time and again tried to take their freedom away.
The struggle for balance between freedom, unity and conformity will no doubt ensue. Freedom is very precious. Here are some quotes:
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." --Ronald Reagan
"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others." --Nelson Mandela
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire
"We hold our heads high, despite the price we have paid, because freedom is priceless." --Lech Walesa
"The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off." --Gloria SteinemReply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-05 11:42:17
Being organized without turning into an organization is the impossible dream. JW history and that of the CBF Church (the link in your comment) demonstrate the Animal Farm reality of human organizations all too clearly. We can't stop future generations from taking whatever we start and turning it into that from which we are trying to escape. All we can do is try to instill in our families - spiritual and fleshly - a deep love for Christian freedom.
Reply by stonedragon2k on 2015-07-05 12:54:31
It is not an impossible dream, because Jesus said that all things are possible with God.
A few things that can make Jesus' words a true realisation:
1. Don't associate expecting to be fed. Associate to feed others.
2. Each individual must see it as their duty to try and bring something to the table.
3. Women and Men (ergo Bros/Sis) are not viewed or treated differently.
4. Those taking the 'lead' must STOP THEMSELVES taking the lead and allow others to lead. For example in my family study, I've stopped taking the lead and allow other members to lead the discussion on a topic they want.
5. Allow the voice of the minority to be heard
6. Stop viewing buildings, organisations etc the Church. Only view the Body of Christ, a Non corporeal entity as THE ONLY CHURCH.
7. Those taking the lead must allow others to disagree with them, provided a structured argument is proffered by the dissenting voice.
8. Do not consider those with good speaking, social or charismatic personalities as leaders. Consider all equal and necessary as part of a healthy functioning body. What good is the brain or mouth, if there is no foot or anus? The brain would not be able to move anywhere and the body would die from its own waste (I know I may be stretching the metaphor a little here, but I hope you get my drift). When you are lying on your sick bed, you don't need a charismatic leader with fancy words, you need that soft spoken bro/sis to make you a nice bowl of soup. All of our brothers are necessary in all different ways.
9. Allow Sisters to take the lead when they want. There is no division in the body of Christ. Does God really consider ones worth, based on the genitals they happen to born with? There are no sex or class distinctions within Christ (Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female)
10. Do not view 'other' Christians as the 'wrong' sort or not having God's favour (Mark 9:38)
11. Those taking the Lead and any other Christian MUST ADMIT if they have been teaching a falsehood and must allow a falsehood to be exposed. Do not try to cover up or silence those that speak the truth.
12. Allow bros/sis to come and go when they like. They are not obligated to answer to anybody unless their conscience dictates to themselves that they should. Remember the bros/sis are NOT YOUR PROPERTY.
13. Do not build any property. Property in this world means ownership which then extends to ownership of not just the buildings, but to those that use them, that is the brothers/sisters.
Finally, remember the nature of the fallen man is to gravitate towards those that we view as stronger. For some reason the fallen man likes to swear his/her fealty towards other men. Those taking the lead MUST RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO ACCEPT THIS FEALTY and instead point them to CHRIST.
Those 'taking the lead' MUST only have ONE SINGLE GOAL. To make every brother INDEPENDENT OF THEIR perceived leadership, to build them up so that they can become stronger in Christ and in turn lead others to Christ to become part of the whole BODY. Each Christian must keep this mindset.
These are my few suggestions that those setting up the venture might want to bear in mind, which might help them from treading down the familiar path of oppression.Reply by yobec on 2015-07-05 13:48:18
Wow! You are obviously not newly converted. More posts like that and I might start gravitating towards you. Just kidding of course. Very well articulated post with valuable content. Thanks .
Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-05 14:34:07
Thanks SD2. Those are the kinds of ideals that need to be instilled in our 'families' and indeed, could be written into our 'constitution' as an impediment to future corruption. However, history demonstrates that there is no guarantee that they will be upheld in the future.
Reply by on 2015-07-05 21:18:32
There are three absolutely vital things that all Christians must be willing to admit and say. If they fail to do these things, they are doomed, like all who failed before them.
1. They must admit that they do not know everything.
2. They must admit when they are wrong.
3. They must say they are sorry, when they are responsible for (1) or (2) and, as a result, have spread falsehood, failed to uphold the truth, or otherwise have brought harm to others who listened to them.
Finally, an implied (4) would be, steps 1-3 have to be done as soon as it is apparent that an error has been made - not weeks, months, years or decades after one's own failings have come to light. Admitting a mistake one made 20 years ago is not good enough, not when you have an association of Christians that are impacted by your words and actions.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-05 21:33:16
It wasn't that long ago that the Vatican apologized for what they did to Galileo. So we still are one up on them, but not for long if we keep going the way we're going. ;)
Reply by Joseph on 2015-07-10 10:43:17
Thank you very much for your suggestions. I believe the list contain wonderful ideas for how we should treat each other and how we should express leadership in as Christian.
Comment by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-05 11:05:34
Well said Alex Rover!!! I enjoyed reading your post and look forward to continued warm association.
Comment by yobec on 2015-07-05 14:06:49
Thanks Alex. I completely agree with your sentiments .
For what it's worth, I have found it best when having a conversation with a rank and file J/W, to use the word "institution" rather than "organization".
The word basically means the same and has less of a deification overtone.
For the average J/W, the word Organization is almost synonymous with Jehovah himself and that is perhaps due to having heard the 2 words together( Jehovah's Organization) for too long.
An acquaintance of mine was puzzled a few days ago when I talked to him about some of the contents in the Bible. He said" I thought you had left the truth?'.
I didn't have time to respond because we we're interrupted but what I was preparing to say and will perhaps say if the occasion presents itself again is: " Well now, it all depends what you mean by "the truth" if you mean being in total subjection to a man made institution, then the answer is yes. But, if you mean being a disciple of Christ, then the answer is no.
Comment by on 2015-07-05 14:25:01
You wrote, the New World Translation is the only widely distributed translation using the expression 'association of brothers' here. A more common translation is 'brotherhood' or 'family of believers'."
The interlinear I found likewise says we should show honor [to] the brotherhood, not the "association".
In like manner, the NWT has 2 Corinthians 5:20 saying, "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us".
NO OTHER TRANSLATION USES THE WORD "SUBSTITUTING".
Most versions sound like NASB: "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
Yes, the WT and the GB want to act as a substitute for Christ, in "association" with the "WT organization" rather than in the brotherhood that the scriptures describe to us.
It can be startling to see how many liberties have been taken with the NWT.
One last example is Micah 6:8. In the rNWT, it has, "He has told you, O man, what is good. And what is Jehovah requiring of you? Only to exercise justice, to cherish loyalty, And to walk in modesty with your God!"
NO OTHER TRANSLATION USES THE WORDS "CHERISH LOYALTY".
Per NASB: "He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?"
The WT version seems to be trying to establish a mandate from God to be obedient and loyal to the human organization of the Watchtower Society. It's positively creepy.
This only underscores the importance of not to take things for granted, or to assume that even "innocent" scriptural understandings gained from years with the WT are necessarily correct.
Like the freedom mentioned in the article, freedom from religious error requires eternal vigilance.
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-07-05 17:46:17
Alex, I sincerely appreciate how much time and effort articles like this take from your personal time and the sacrifices you make to continue writing them. I am firmly convinced that you have a deep appreciation for God's Word and a loving spirit toward you brothers and sisters in Christ.
What you may not be able to see is your continued bias towards Jehovah's Witnesses as a special people. I have the advantage of being on the outside of the Watchtower organization. Believe me, the view is so much clearer "out" rather than "in". Being "Out" is true Christian freedom, the load is so much lighter with Jesus in your yoke.
Your reference to "Rutherford" seems to imply that you believe he had some sort of special significance to Jesus family of followers. His predecessor, Charles Taze Russel may have started out innocently enough in pursuit of truth and he said some mighty eye-opening things, but ultimately the power over others he acquired corrupted him. If you have not done so, I encourage you to google them both and read about their history, from an objective point of view, NOT the view Jehovah's Witnesses have been taught.
None of us is in a position to judge either of them or anyone else, we are not even able to judge ourselves. We are all accountable as individuals, but I believe when we are responsible for misleading millions of people, we have a greater accountability.
You even bring the congregation to the present time with changes in ownership of Kingdom Halls. What has that to do with a free association? What has that to do with being a follower of Jesus?
The thing that is so hard for Jehovah's Witnesses to conceptualize, believe and embrace in their hearts is that they are not a special people, they are not better than everyone else around them. It is not their place to judge others. As a part of a whole, they do not have a special relationship with God. They, as a whole, are not going to survive Armageddon and watch billions of people being destroyed all around them. As a whole, they will not find salvation in an organization.
I acknowledge that there are many sincere, kind, good, loving people among them. Some of them may be searching for the truth. Some have even found out the truth about "the truth". The bottom line for me is that each one is still part of the whole.
Your humble and loving sisterReply by arover2014 on 2015-07-05 18:15:15
Hi ImAcG2,
thank you for your kind words. I feel the same about you sister.
This is a site whose ministry caters mostly to JW and ex-JW. With Rutherford and Russell I was illustrating how our freedom can be easily stripped from us, because it happened in the faith we grew up into, in a time span of just one hundred years.
I could use the story of other religions, but it wouldn't register with the audience as much as our own history.
I agree very much with your conclusion that we are part of a whole, and sooner or later we will find the time to launch a non-denominational site. Hopefully we can count on your part in helping spread the Good News of Christ, denomination-free and truly watchtower free.
Until then, we have a lot of work ahead of us. I'm sure you understand the unique situation we are in and how it lends itself to the kind of ministry we conduct to help lost sheep among the Witnesses.
Reply by BN on 2015-07-05 20:46:54
I agree, except i now see it's actually all about the anointed ones... THEY are the wheat and weed .. So if you can show me another religion with anointed ones .. I know about the Biblestudents but there are none in my country..
So what the holy spirit has showed me is that while jw.org preaches everyone except those belonging to them is going to die in what they think armageddon is, it is kind of the opposite .. Satan will attac, but there will be no rescuing for those inside. They have been following the lie and taken the mark of the beast. I guess it could happen to everyone who lies about God, His Son and the 144,000 firstborn..
It depends on how much they love the lies? Their hearts....
What if we portray God as a massmurderer? Or a torturer? The faithful anointed ones as apostate? Shun them as dead for God? Or do not recognice them at all? And our beloved Savior as hardly worth mentioning?Joh 5:23 Or as one with 3 heads? Or raise above him? Not listening to him?
The Kingdom is a promise for all God's children; it is a promise coming when the new covenant is fulfilled. A loving God has given his Son and his bride, who only will be those who have done what these scriptures says; Matt 10:37; Luk 9:23; Heb13:13; Rev 14:4, 5. And there were no lie in their mouths.. truth vs lie...
So, about the anointed ones ... The promise was to the jews.. for the rest of us to be blessed through. So it is obvious that all christians are not those elected ..He even said so: Matt 10:23; 15:24 ..
So why would they not be even finished with the circuit of israel? Rom 9:6; Gal 6:16; 3:29. Because rest of mankind will be offered another promise ...
Everybody who stands after the new covenant is fulfilled will be offered life Rev 22:17 Who those are is not for us to speculate about .. Acts 24:15; Heb 9:28
Jah has mercy with whoever He want's to! Rom 9:18
If we think there will be thousand years and then another test, then we have the timetable wrong: Haven't mankind been through enough? ....
The resurrection will obviously happen when the new covenant is fulfilled and the kingdom come.
What i have seen is that most jw.org members rather portray God as one who will kill their friends, relatives and even their children -rather than believe that He actually has a plan to save humanity. So many in my country has children who do not hail jw.org .....and those who have left often turn atheists .. Matt 18:7Reply by on 2015-07-06 16:13:38
If we honestly believe that the WT has failed to be God's "organization", and further, if God didn't actually ask anyone to form an organization in His name in the first place, can anyone serving that organization rightly claim to be "anointed"? Would God really anoint people who would only be destined to serve an organization of men acting against His interests? That would be a very peculiar thing for God to do.
Reply by arover2014 on 2015-07-06 16:15:29
Really not up to us to judge. We don't know the heart.
Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-06 20:26:24
Hi Anonymous,
There are those anointed by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and then there are those anointed by the god of this system, and by their fruits, their beliefs, you can recognize them.
Comment by Alien Resident on 2015-07-06 04:15:00
Nice post, I recall in 1990 a branch member gave a dedication talk for our KH, he made the point that the word organisation, is not found in the Bible...he went on to explain that Jeh. Is a God of order, highlighted this by universe, meetings in heavens..from the book of Job, angels having ranks, Seraphs, cherubs, etc...and from Israel to 1st, to today,...but that point always stuck with me.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-06 09:05:17
Welcome, Alien Resident.
I've heard similar reasoning. Such arguments are a specious attempt to justify a concept not found in scripture.
Jehovah is indeed a God of order, but order and organization are two different concepts. Even the example often used of the orderly universe doesn't support the concept of organization. All things in the universe follow a strict set of laws, yet there is chaos everywhere, from crashing asteroids to exploding stars. All of that is orderly because it conforms to the laws of physics, but it hardly represents the concept of an organization.
Even the much touted example of the nation of Israel as Jehovah's first earthly organization wasn't an organization at all. It was a people, often chaotic and at odds with one another. They didn't have a central authority other than God himself. Each man did what was good in his own eyes. (Judges 17:6) Jehovah's Witnesses will point to the period of the kings when there was a central human authority to support their modern concept of organization, but we have to remember that the era of the kings did not originate with God, but was a consequence of the Israelite rejection of God as their king. (1 Samuel 8:7) Like the ancient Israelites, Jehovah's Witnesses give lip service to having God as their king, but have elected (by their loyal compliance) to appoint over themselves human kings. In truth, they allow the Governing Body to exercise more control over how they think and act than do the subjects of the kings and rulers of the nations.Reply by father jack on 2015-07-06 10:18:59
Wow that's right meleti about the human kings for the most part it was a disaster for the people and they rejected god by asking for it . It's strange but for some reason most people
Seem to prefer being ruled by others perhaps they don't like the responsibility of having to make their own decisions . Actually the brothers seem to be the same by supporting a governing body it seems they may be rejecting god as ruler in favour of men . Wow thanks for that one Kevin.
Reply by Alien resident on 2015-07-06 15:48:14
Thanks Meleti, I appreciate your reasoning. Also I liked your points on Acts 15. In fact I shared those points with another brother, someone I can trust, was in the same Cong, when this talk was given and we're both in dismay at what the scriptures say and what were conditioned as JW's to accept. It's an eye-opener...time to widen my eyes to the truth. It's frightening , anyway, I've always been of the mindset of the Borean's, it's seems that over a period of years, you become complacent and lazy and just accept what's dished out, until they through out the window types, 'the generation ' f&d slave =gb, list goes on. It's good to have ones like yourself who have at least attempted to make sense of all this, it's helping interested ones to if anything be informed what the scriptures and find balance again. Thanks Brother
Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-06 20:33:00
Hi Alien Resident,
God is a God of truth and justice as the basis for order, which He wants to establish in the hearts of individuals, so that people do the right thing for the right reasons and out of their own hearts filled with the love of God, NOT an external order as the WT preaches.
Comment by Skye on 2015-07-06 04:48:57
Further to some of the comments, a scripture comes to mind which may help us as we associate with one another.
"At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.'" Matthew 11:25,26
Comment by Skye on 2015-07-06 05:16:33
And since we're into quotes just now:
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Albert EinsteinReply by on 2015-07-06 12:51:36
I had a chemistry teacher state it even more briefly and pointedly: If you can't explain it, you don't know it.
Comment by Buster on 2015-07-06 12:30:54
One big thing that always gets me stirred up is not taking accountability for there actions , aka then governing body, look we all know we make mistakes ( wow I know I protest too much ) but when we don't tall about our responsibility and say sure in the past we did things or maybe we had issues like david splane commit when he said near the back end of the whole 10 minute talk of hiw there always been a. 1900 year old slave, I just love how he used the Bible scriptures, wait he did not.
The big word in our recent history, that the organization loves to use is Understanding, wow has a word never been overused. We in this year watchtower we were throwing that word around like it was free. And at times we even said well Jehovah helped us understand at the time referencing our past errors. So maybe I am not the highest English teacher, but it sure sounds to Me ,again to my ears it sounds we are passing the buck to our heavenly father. Just think if we as individual's would do gross sins and later said this in a judicial hearing well my understanding at the time and you know pass the responsibility to some one else, yeah I think you would still be in trouble, I am sure of it.
And we love using Adam and his son Cain as people who did not face there problems and take responsibility for there course and actions. We love using in Genesis 4:9 , and we love pointing out Cain's action of not taking responsibility for his actions. Taking responsibility for one action and admitting sure I messed up and I am sorry. Is that what our Lord Jesus said go and make peace with your brother. Not go tell him well my understanding at the time was this and so forth.Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-06 20:46:59
Good point, Buster.
If someone gets disfellowshipped for having the wrong ‘understanding’ of certain doctrines, he is made to sit at the back of the hall in silence and isolation for a few years, and the same should be done to the GB for their faulty ‘understanding’ of Bible teachings over the years.
Judging by their performance and unrepentant attitude, they would never get out of the ‘naughty corner’ before the end of this system.Reply by Buster on 2015-07-07 01:44:04
Thanks J-A-T, cool name by the way. And I realize when I get worked up I can't write, sorry about my misspelling everyone
Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2015-07-06 17:45:46
Alex, you state "Really not up to us to judge. We don’t know the heart".
I entirely agree with you.
However, there is a huge difference between judging and simply stating facts. I don't consider that as judging anyone's heart. The organization does not have a heart because it is not a person. The organization does have a history, actually their version of their history and then there is their real history available to anyone who wants to research documents for themselves.
When we are talking about something as serious as our spirituality, we really need facts.
Facts speak for themselves. Each person must decide for themselves which version of history they want to embrace as being their own truth.
Your loving sisterReply by arover2014 on 2015-07-06 17:47:59
Hi Imacg2,
that response was not in regard to the organization, but in response to individuals: "can anyone serving that organization rightly claim to be “anointed”".Reply by Skye on 2015-07-11 12:43:30
Hi Alex, Some prefer to remain in WT and some have made the decision to leave. It can be difficult for those of us who have left to understand why some brothers remain in, attending meetings, studying WT publications, even preaching WT teachings when they know these are false. And for those of us who are no longer in, we sometimes see evidence that some brothers who remain in are still being influenced by WT, and naturally we are concerned for our brothers and sisters. I am not giving an opinion as to whether brothers should leave or not, but I am just trying to explain how difficult it is for all of us at this stage.
Comment by agapeheartvisions on 2015-07-20 11:34:08
Reblogged this on agapeheartvisions.