Your Deliverance Is Near!

Comment by Walter Finlay on 2015-08-26 11:14:12

Thank you Alex for the research on the confusing presentation by the "faithful slave" of end-time elements found in Watchtower publications.
In 1975 we had to cope with three expectations.
*** w75 11/15 p. 681 Events That Still Lie Ahead ***
By 2012 we were up to five in the same article.
*** w12 9/15 p. 4 How This World Will Come to an End ***
FIVE EVENTS TO COME:
1. Proclamation of “Peace and security!”
2. Nations attack and destroy “Babylon the Great”
3. Attack on Jehovah’s people
4. War of Armageddon
5. Satan and his demons are abyssed
You have shown us that there are in fact twelve prophetic elements still future. Your references are to the on-line versions. Here are corresponding links to the CD WT-Library.
Final Sealing of the Anointed
*** w13 11/15 p. 13 pars. 13-14 How Can We Maintain “a Waiting Attitude”? ***
Peace and Security
*** w13 11/15 pp. 12-13 pars. 9-12 How Can We Maintain “a Waiting Attitude”? ***
Great Tribulation Begins
*** w14 5/15 pp. 26-27 par. 2 Are You Moving Ahead With Jehovah’s Organization? ***
Attack on Religion
*** w14 5/15 p. 27 Are You Moving Ahead With Jehovah’s Organization? ***
Period of Calm (1942 talk by N H Knorr: “Peace—Can It Last?”)
*** w14 10/15 p. 19 Milestones in My Life of Kingdom Service ***
Signs in Heaven and Earth
*** w98 5/1 pp. 13-14 pars. 2-3 Who Will “Get Away Safe”? ***
Judging of Sheep and Goats
*** w13 7/15 p. 6 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
Gog of Magog Attacks
*** w14 12/15 p. 24 pars. 9-12 Facing the End of This Old World Together ***
Anointed Called to Heaven
*** w84 12/15 p. 28 ‘Michael the Great Prince’—Who Is He? ***
Armageddon
*** w14 5/15 p. 27 Are You Moving Ahead With Jehovah’s Organization? ***
Heavenly Wedding
*** w14 2/15 pp. 10-11 Rejoice Over the Marriage of the Lamb! ***
The conclusion of your article seems to be that the Governing Body could keep these ploys going for up to 50 or 100 more years without running out of "new light" to keep our pathways growing brighter. As long as we don't pay too close attention.
Even the 2015 Regional Conventions closed with the assurance that this is all "very soon" to occur.

Comment by Anonymous on 2015-08-26 11:32:26

Our deliverance may be near, perhaps more so than previously. (But then, time being linear, how could it be otherwise?) However, those of us who are all too familiar with the WT's doctrinal flaws, this is hardly a reason to get "excited" over. Their "prophetic framework" is a house of cards, one they must carefully tweak with utmost exactitude, lest it all come crumbling down.
One of the foremost problems is the ongoing issue of "new light", so often criticized in ex-JW and dissenter sites. It has been often observed and commented on that the passage in Proverbs 4:18 and the whole of Proverbs 4 has nothing to do with increasing spiritual light from God, but rather the benefits from wise and godly behavior along with the benefits of avoiding bad association. In addition to the context of Proverbs 4, how can we know that this has nothing to do with spiritual light? Well, if the WT is truly a spirit-directed organization, and that which they call 'insight' is due to the operation of the holy spirit, then how can they explain the need to revise old doctrines that, in theory, themselves originated as "new light"? If that were true, then the older "new light" contained errors that had to be corrected by newer "new light".
But there is just no way to reconcile that concept with 1 John 1:5: "And this is the message which we have heard from him and are announcing to you, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him." If WT claims that "new light" corrects old light, but the old light presumably originated with God, then we would be forced to conclude that God made a mistake and had to go back and "fix" it. As God does not make mistakes, attributing error to Him (even indirectly) is a form of blasphemy. Coming as it does from those claiming to worship Him, this is simply inexcusable. As Jesus put it in Matthew 6:22-23, ". If, then, your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright; but if your eye is wicked, your whole body will be dark. If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!" WT "new light" doctrines in reality are darkness, but they are anything but "simple".
Regarding observation 1, that the GB views itself as "faithful", there is a marvelous YouTube video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-XZivv0q8s by "Watchtower Examination". It covers statements by the GB and WT regarding their role as the "faithful and discrete slave". The author is a non-witness but a person with a unique perspective. He thoroughly disproves their high-minded claims of being either faithful or discrete. Well worth watching.
Much of the remainder of this article, and the crux of the WT position, is that we are in the last days, and therefore we need to view the times as urgent, we need to be obedient to the GB, etc. etc.
The most enlightening book I ever read on this was by Carl Olof Jonsson, "Sign of the Last Days - When?" Between this, and his book about the Gentile Times and the fallacy of the 607 BCE date, totally destroy the credibility of the WT about this crucial, key doctrines. If 607 BCE is false, and 1914 is false, and we are not living in the biblical last days. [moderator redacts next comments for hyperbolic statements that amount to JW religion-bashing. Other sites handle that. Please note commenting guidelines. Anonymous commentor concludes thusly:]
The WT is part of Babylon the Great, and we are commanded to get out of it, leave it and never come back. Good words to heed.

• Reply by Anonymous on 2015-08-26 12:27:30

  Your point is noted; it was in fact treading on bashing territory. Although, even the Bible does its share of "bashing". Consider how the Israelites were based for bowing down to "dungy" idols, and how Babylon the Great is bashed for being the mother of the harlots. There is indeed a fine line between telling the truth and bashing.

  • Reply by Joel on 2015-08-26 15:09:53

    I'm slightly curious what followed "and we are not living in the biblical last days"? There are a great many Christians besides JW's who feel we really are living in the last days, but I don't know if it is in our jurisdiction to know for sure until the moment is literally upon us. Still it is undeniable that the world is being galvanised specifically to resist Christians and that is something you would expect of the final time as well. That doesn't mean it can't go further still - just that the agenda is accelerating in an observable way.

    • Reply by Anonymous on 2015-08-26 15:24:52

      Perhaps the world is indeed becoming more anti-Christian. In some cases, that is outright opposition, and in other cases it's apathy. But to call this an "agenda" suggests that it is being caused or orchestrated by someone, and that would be much harder to prove. We must bear in mind that there was a time the Catholic Church had almost total control over what was deemed "Christian" and anyone who violated their rules (in order to practice a more-correct version of Christianity) risked death. That could be seen as a form of resistance to (true) Christianity, but was something that took place many centuries ago.
      As for the last days, Matthew 24 tells us not to be deceived, BECAUSE wars, famines and other things WOULD occur, but the end was not yet. The so-called signs of the last days have been misunderstood and mislabeled. For instance, after 1914, famine actually decreased. So, that can't be a sign. It is true there was famine for a while after the world wars, but it subsided. And even so, Jesus tells us not to be deceived by such events, because they are not the sign at all.
      How would we know? There are many references to a "generation" in the Bible that equate it with 40 years. Not 70, 80 or any other number. In two major cases, Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt with powerful signs, but then the Jews were unfaithful and wandered for 40 years. For Jesus, his ministry began with powerful works, yet most Jews were unfaithful and didn't listen, and then 40 years later, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70.
      I believe the same will happen today. The last days have not started yet, because there will be some demonstration of powerful works that the entire world will see - "all eyes will see him". (And, that answers a nagging question about how to reach the whole world before Armageddon. It won't happen by human efforts, but by miraculous power, the only way this could possibly be done.) Once that happens, the world will have 40 years to exercise faith, or not.
      It is for these reasons that the WT concepts of "this generation", which they repeatedly change the interpretation of, has not held true. They have had the wrong starting point all along. The last days have not started at all, which is why WT has always been wrong.

      • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-26 20:39:30

        On the other hand if the "last days" began with Jesus' ascension (seasons of God), then "this generation" would mean the "last days" generation. cp Luke 16:8; Mark 8:38; Matthew 11:16. Proverbs 30:11 is interesting - genea as "brood".

        • Reply by father jack on 2015-08-27 02:16:12

          I think the bible itself seems to indicate that the term (last days ) refers to a period of time at least starting in the first century . 2 tim 3 v 1

          • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-27 10:02:11

            If that is the case, and the "last days" did begin back then at the time of Jesus' ascension, then in harmony with Luke 16:8; Mark 8:38; Matthew 11:16 and Proverbs 30:11, the scripture at Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (genea) would refer not to a period of years, but rather to a "type of people", that is a "wicked society" which would continue until Jesus returns when he establishes the Kingdom of God.
            I haven't fully understood the topic of "the seasons of God", but it is very interesting and I have a list of scriptures of how it relates to the last days, if anyone is interested.

            • Reply by father jack on 2015-08-27 13:34:17

              Yes skye and i personally do believe that the generation jesus spoke of was more than likely the generation of the seed of the serpent that statement is based on reading matthew 23 and 24 together .

              • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-27 16:07:04

                Matthew 24:34 "this generation" (genea) in this scripture would refer to "the evil society" as constituted by the world systems which would continue to exist in that form, all throughout the "last days", until the time when Jesus returns and replaces all the world systems with his Kingdom.

                • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-28 13:04:54

                  Meleti, A friend of mine, a sister, (not a JW) has done considerable research on the last days, and she kindly gave me some notes about "the seasons of God" and how it all relates. It's quite lengthy and I didn't want to post it here without your permission. Please advise if you would be so kind. Thank you.

                  • Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-28 15:39:25

                    You can reach meleti via the contact us page.

                • Reply by Anonymous on 2015-08-29 13:42:44

                  I have read similar thoughts before. I understand, up to a point, how some could view the generation as beginning in the first century. The problem I have is that, as you read Jesus' words, it does seem as though there is an undertone of urgency to it. For the first century Christians, that urgency was a real and meaningful thing, since the Romans were coming just 33 years later to surround and then destroy Jerusalem. Could the span of 2,000 years really be viewed as "urgent" in the minds of the average faithful person of average reasoning ability? Does it really make sense that his followers would be "on red alert" so to speak for 2,000 years? Ordinary human reasoning and perception just doesn't work that way. It seems out of character to ask such a thing of people. The first century Christians were dealing with a literal 40-year generation, that began with the miracles performed by Jesus in the year 30 AD, and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That much we are certain of, because they facts of history. Should we conclude that there must be another fulfillment, but one that is fulfilled in a totally different way, over the course of 2,000 years (or even longer)? In fulfillment of the very same prophecy that got fulfilled in just 40 years in the first century? That seems like an extremely inconsistent way to interpret Jesus' words. If we are going to do that, we need some extremely strong, compelling evidence to convince us that's the correct thing to do, and so far, I have not seen any such evidence.
                  To me, it makes more sense that the "last days" have not yet begun, but when they do, they will span a 40-year period, as prior biblical examples did. Such a span would be within the adult lifetime of the average person, enough time for them to make an informed decision about matters of faith and belief.

                  • Reply by Skye on 2015-08-29 16:09:46

                    The years which precede Christ's return are so crucial that all God's holy prophets foretell the events which will take place during that time. We have been told "everything in advance" (Mark 13:23) so that we can be prepared for the future, and we know what to expect.
                    To all those who are unprepared events leading up to the second coming will be unexpected. Rev 3:3.
                    Our lifespan for now is only 70 or 80 years, and so no matter at what period of time we are living at during the "last days" we must be prepared for the Kingdom of God.
                    If genea is to mean 40 years then all becomes nonsense at Acts 1:6,7. The disciples here were asking Jesus a question in relation to the coming Kingdom, and Jesus reply was in relation to that specific question. The Kingdom has not yet arrived.
                    

    • Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-26 15:34:55

      I share your view Joel. Personally I feel we live in the last days, but when we desire something intensely, we often look for signs to confirm it. Such has been proven by history. Many Christians have expected the return of our Lord in their lifetimes and were convinced they saw all the signs.
      Nevertheless we must remain alert, keep expecting him, since his return is promised at a time many wouldn't expect it, in the night, while most are asleep.

Comment by Deborah on 2015-08-26 16:53:24

Alex Rover,
Could you give a general sequence of events you believe will occur before Christ's coming in Kingdom power?
Deborah

• Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-26 17:16:18

  Hi Deborah .. there's the article I wrote on the seventh trumpet, and that's the only thing I wrote about this topic. http://meletivivlon.com/2015/05/20/the-seventh-trumpet/
  So it follows that right before the seventh trumpet, the events of the 6th trumpet take place, Revelation uses the expression "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet." (Rev 10:7) These events are symbolic but should be expected to be fulfilled shortly before Christ's coming.
  I want to refrain from speculating, and a proper response to your question may be on my list one day to write about .. but these articles take a ton of time to research.
  

  • Reply by Deborah on 2015-08-26 18:47:06

    Alex Rover,
    Thanks for the reply.
    It's a thousand times easier to deconstruct than to construct. Much easier to tear apart than to build.
    I hope Beroean Pickets will soon build, will soon post a detailed statement of faith, and in the near future a biblical commentary on a specific book in the NT.
    Deborah

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-26 17:36:49

Thanks for all your hard work in researching and organizing this article, Alex.

• Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-28 15:38:37

  Thank you my brother.

Comment by Alien resident on 2015-08-26 18:21:26

Thanks Alex, believe it or not, we just had CO visit, the Public Talk was on the events of last days, or the scene of this world is changing-he kept it brief to the script, cry of peace and security, fall of Babylon-God puts it in their hearts, gathering of nations, abyss of satan...that was pretty much it, and after armegeddon , wars cease and no wicked-I must say, he seemed exhausted, well it was the week of royal commission.

• Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-28 15:37:46

  Thank you Alien Resident.

Comment by Skye on 2015-08-26 18:39:36

God has "appointed times" for all of His plans.
"Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the Lord." Jeremiah 8:7
"They do not say to themselves, 'Let us fear the Lord our God, who gives autumn and spring rains in season, who assures us of the regular weeks of harvest.'" Jeremiah 5:24

Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-08-27 02:26:47

Thank you Alex for taking what must have been, as you said a ton of time to research.
It is quite laughable the desperation that is reflected in present JW theology to come up with something that doesn't upset the house of cards.
While I appreciate the work that has been done, I have to go along with one of the comments below,re,when are we going to hear what truth is ,rather than what it is not ?
I know that I don't have the time to do the kind of research that you are doing,but I am really feeling the need for a beroean pickets "truth book" , something to navigate through the GB minefield of doctrine, and make sense of my new growing faith and beliefs.
Keep up the good work and may Jehovah bless you .

• Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-27 04:52:47

  Thank you Wild Olive, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the need for a "truth" book, and I can promise you that I'll be making it a priority going forward. In fact, we have an internal email thread which stands at 61 replies in the past week alone, relating to how we might go about creating such a study aid. Even so it might take quite some time to complete. I appreciate your patience.
  To our defense in relation to a comment Deborah made, we have not just broke down, but also "built up" in many articles on this site. Without using the search function, I can think of the recent series of Meleti in regards to what worship means, and the series he made about the central theme of the bible. I think of the articles that talk about our relationship with Jehovah as children, and the articles about the unity of Christians as one body.
  To say we have answers for everything would be untrue. We are learning new things every day, and there are important topics we haven't quite figured out yet. In many ways Beroean Pickets allows us to work through issues one topic at a time, and our understanding of the truth is steadily shaped by the intense study we do to prepare these articles.
  Keep letting us know how you feel and what you need, it does help us from getting distracted and stay focussed. Your comment was very timely and very appropriate.
  Christian love,
  Alex Rover

  • Reply by Deborah on 2015-08-28 10:39:30

    Alex Rover,
    A suggestion.
    Many Christian sites provide a statement of their beliefs, their foundation. Such a statement might include the scriptural answers to the suggested questions below (as well as others) thus giving visitors a quick review of this site's core beliefs:
    -Who is God? What did Jesus Christ teach about his Father, his God?
    -Who is Jesus Christ? For what purpose did he say he was born?
    -What did Jesus Christ teach concerning the spirit of God?
    -Is the Bible a "good book"? What did Jesus say about God's written word?
    -What does being a disciple of Jesus Christ mean?
    -Jesus said only he was our Teacher, our Leader. Therefore articles on this site should be viewed as only the thoughts of Christians seeking to learn, never to Teach, never to Lead.
    Some sites start with- We Believe That- and then list their beliefs emphatically rather than in a question format.
    Also, it might be good if the positive articles you referred to were referenced and linked on the front page. Christians, especially hurting Christians, would surely appreciate an easy reference to encouraging materials held within the site.
    Deborah
    

    • Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-28 15:36:29

      Thanks Deborah for your suggestions. Unfortunately they all require time, our most precious commodity. Eventually we'll get around to more and more. Just keeping the articles flowing consistently on Beroean Pickets is already quite demanding. Then there's the forum moderation, supporting brothers and sisters who contact us via email, etc. We have families and secular full time employment to maintain ourselves. If you want to help out drop a line on the comment box on the comment page, since we can always use an extra pair of virtual hands around here :)

      • Reply by Deborah on 2015-08-28 15:58:28

        Alex Rover,
        I cannot make a short list of the basic beliefs held by you and Meleti, that is outside my purview. It is something only you and Meleti can do. So is choosing encouraging articles already contained in the site that could be highlighted on perhaps the Knowledge Base section. You have a better idea of which articles would suit better than I would.
        I apologize if you felt my suggestions would be too time consuming.
        Deborah

        • Reply by arover2014 on 2015-08-29 02:15:35

          Hi Deborah,
          you have good suggestions, we just need time to get around to them. That is to say, I agree with you. Consequently, I'm not going to accept your apology. Instead let me give you three different ways you could help out.
          1) You could go through the BP articles and see which ones you feel are upbuilding, send me your initial list, titles of articles along with the url.
          Then you saved us time, because we can edit your list and deliberate on how we can use it on this site. At the very least, we can use it as a reference to see which articles you found upbuilding, and what topics were already covered.
          2) Another way you could help, is by doing research. Pick a topic you would like to see more information about. Then sink your teeth in the topic, gathering in all the viewpoints on that topic, then gathering all the pro/con arguments for those viewpoints and organizing them in a word document. If you like, you could send me such document at arover@outlook.com and I can then try to make it into an article. If such article finally gets published, I would credit your name for the research, and you can feel good knowing you helped others out.
          (Anyone reading this blog can freely help in that way if they want to help out)
          3) Finally there is the discuss the truth forum. Moderating takes quite some time, so feel free to participate in threads that you feel are veering off course with positive replies employing clear reasoning and a love for Jehovah and his word. Many times if the forum members themselves keep a thread balanced, we don't feel the need to intervene.

          • Reply by Deborah on 2015-08-29 11:58:21

            Would it be wise on my part to become more involved with a forum which has not firmed up its beliefs to the point of gathering them together on the front page in order that visitors may see at a glance what you believe?
            Perhaps there is something you hold to that I do not. Would it not be the wiser course for me to refrain from participating more deeply on this site until I know exactly what those in charge here believe?
            To the list I suggested in the post above could be added:
            The resurrection- where and when
            The Kingdom- where and when
            The Last Days- what did Jesus teach?
            These are not deep subjects. But they are subjects which weigh on the hearts and minds of Witnesses who are slowly stumbling out of their religion. These are essential for building up faith in God, his Son, and the Bible.
            Either we attempt to provide or we do not provide. Jesus said to Peter feed my sheep he did not say "Bring down the Pharisees," Christ had already accomplished that which is why Peter was with him. If we are with Christ it is because Christ has already brought down the pharisees whomever they may be. He has brought them down in our hearts.
            Now we must feed our brothers and sisters. New and deeply involved insights are not needed. Just a few essentials that strengthen, essentials that build up faith in God.
            There is a saying you have likely come across it goes something like this: In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Freedom.
            Christian association requires that there be agreement on such essentials as, who is Jesus, who is the Father, the Bible's essential place in our lives, and so on. Christian association does not require agreement on chronology, Revelation, Daniel and so on.
            One last thought- The Watchtower is obsessed with itself. Why should we follow suit and be obsessed with it ourselves?
            Deborah
            

Comment by Buster on 2015-08-27 04:48:06

I love that the Society or aka the Organization keeps wanting to put the fear into us, look do I think we are living in the last days, Sure I do, but am I gonna start throwing the fear in everybody face, No!!!
When you got Anthony Morris aka one of the Guardians of Doctrine up in the Convention saying well it looks like Soon God will bring the Hammer down soon. Where in all that is holy does he get his information, I mean maybe we should say it is near, but oh yeah it is very soon, and all these Magazine's with the scary images, and always saying it is very very soon, look we know the Organization end time lines are purely wrong, and they been always wrong, and us always wanted to pinpoint a date, Jesus said like a thief in the Night, none of this well the hammer is coming down.
Maybe if we leave it to our Lord Jesus and his and Our Heavenly Father God, maybe they know for sure when the Hammer is coming down, maybe leave it to the Professionals, and the Guardians of Doctrine's go back to there own thing.

Comment by BeenMislead on 2015-08-27 14:37:43

Thanks Alex, Excellent Article!
Of course it all started with Russell who said that 1914 would be the end of the time of trouble.
"Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." – (Zions Watch Tower, 1894, July 15, p.226)
------------------------------------------
“And he said, Take heed that ye be not led astray: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and, The time is at hand: go ye not after them.” – (Luke 21:8, English Revised Version)
“And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.” – (Luke 21:8, English Standard Version)
------------------------------------------
The two translations of Luke 21:8 above is very interesting in light of the fact that C.T. Russell actually published a volume of “Studies In The Scriptures” containing date predictions and which was entitled: “The Time is at Hand!”.
A good question worth asking is this:
Would Jesus choose as his faithful and discreet slave an organization or group of men who were essentially preaching “The Time is At Hand” when he himself specifically told his followers not to go after men making such claims?

• Reply by Anonymous on 2015-08-27 22:08:20

  That is an extremely good question. An even better question is how Rutherford could (almost in the same breath) extol the virtues of Russell, only to repudiate nearly everything that Russell stood for and taught, and also repudiate and abandon the original Bible Students that would not follow him instead of Russell. If what Rutherford taught and how he led the organization was true and correct, then Russell of necessity was wrong. And if Russell was truly wrong, would Jesus have chosen Russell as the faithful and wise steward? But if Jesus did not in fact make that choice, did he choose Rutherford? Who DID choose Rutherford? And, has Jesus chosen anyone at all? If not, where does that leave "God's organization", if that is in fact what it is? How can the WT claim that its origin began with Russell, when the organization from Rutherford on to today has rejected Russell and the Bible Students, so much so that anyone adhering to Bible Student theology today would be disfellowshipped? How could Russell possibly be a good, kind, faithful man but be totally rejected by his supposed modern day brothers? To me, something doesn't add up here.

Comment by father jack on 2015-09-01 14:37:59

Couldnt help noticing the discussion on wether or not the last days started in the first century heres some scriptures to think about 1 john 2 v18 jude 1 v18 2 peter 3v 3 1 peter 1v 20 james 5 v3 hebrews 1v 2 acts 2v 17 i understand the reasoning that how can we still be in the last days 2000 years later but looking at those verses how can we say that the apostles never felt they were living in the last days ? Ps i am just saying what i see .