We Will Go With You

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-04-01 16:11:25

Matthew 12:50........... For whoever does the WILL of MY FATHER in HEAVEN is my brother and sister and MOTHER.”

is very fine verse I have used to simplify the task set before me and I always love to link it with

John 6:40 ........For this is the WILL of my FATHER, that everyone who LOOKS on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Another point here

Concerning the word MOTHER as used by Jesus Christ, the JW ORG pride itself as OUR MOTHER but in Matthew 12:50 we become CHRIST MOTHER when we do the WILL of FATHER by LOOKING TO THE SON. So when the ORG publish materials asking us to put FAITH in A VISIBLE ORGANIZATION(OUR MOTHER). The result is clear for all to see WHAT kind of ORG it is.

• Reply by Chez on 2020-04-02 07:57:26

  Thanks Safeguard, for that crystal clear reminder re "the will of the Father"!! Yes, John 6:40 I still feel the indoctrination of believing that "the will of the Father" was counting time the watchtower way. Now, after resigning 4 years ago you have given me a scriptural way to ease my mind. All are Gods sons and daughters ... Thus Christ's brothers and sisters.

Comment by yobec on 2020-03-29 12:25:03

The org. teaches that our salvation depends on supporting Christ's brothers and identifies these brothers as being partly themselves. Yet, the sheep in Jesus's illustration do not seem to recognize in advance how it is that they have done good to his brothers, let alone who these ones are. The sheep recognizes them only once Jesus points them out.
Since the fulfillment of this illustration is set for the future, during his actual coming, does that not seem to indicate that the identification of these ones cannot be done at this time?

• Reply by marielle on 2020-03-30 04:50:52

  Qui sont les frères du Christ ?
  Laissons parler Jésus.
  MATTHIEU 12 : 50
  « Car QUICONQUE fait la volonté de mon Père qui est au ciel, CELUI-LÀ EST MON FRÈRE et ma sœur, et ma mère. ”

  • Reply by Frankie on 2020-03-30 15:04:44

    Marielle, excellent! You crushed all the unbiblical drivel about two-class Christians with single verse!

Comment by Chet on 2020-03-29 14:23:07

The following words, chill me to the bone:

“ The other sheep should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed “brothers” still on earth.” (WT Dec. 3/15 p. 20)

“At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s Organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.” (w13 11/15 p. 20)

Governing Body member Gerrit Losch on a recent JW Broadcast made the request “Do you trust Jehovah and Jesus? Then trust the Governing Body like they do.”


The first statement is outright contradiction of Acts 4:10-12. Jesus was sent to save us. There has been a version of this thought floating about the Watchtower Organization for many years now. Sometimes known as the “Mystery Doctrine”, the various interpretations of this always seem to follow along similar lines, that the anointed are somehow involved in the salvation of the Other Sheep. This notion not only goes beyond what is written, it contradicts what is written in inspired scripture. Were I a GB member, or in any way involved with disseminating this teaching, I would renounce it publicly. I would a lot rather make friends with God and with Christ than promote a falsehood just to retain the favor of a manmade organization which may well be in its death throes.


The second statement quoted above is someone’s mouth writing a check their body cannot cash. Let’s look at some prior examples of following the Watchtower’s “direction”.

As the storm of WW II gathered, Rutherford attempted to curry favor with the Nazis. When they didn’t take the bait, he then spoke out against them. The only thing he succeeded in doing was to draw attention to them and his loud mouth served only to contribute to the persecution of JWs by the Nazi regime. Had he simply left matters alone, things probably would have gone much better for the Witnesses in Germany.

Then there is the inconsistent “direction” from the Organization with regard to neutrality and military service. In the US, a Witness youth that was drafted was expected to go to prison, instead of accepting peaceful alternative service, such as working in a civilian hospital. My own father, and most of my uncles, went to prison, and I fully expected that I would face the same fate. (A very favorable draft lottery number made it a moot point in my life.)

At the same time, in Mexico, one had only to pay a bribe, obtain false evidence of having served and that was acceptable. I have heard it opined that this was because the Witnesses were trying to gain the favor of the Mexican government and didn’t want to bring any negative attention on their organization.

But in Malawi, people were driven from their homes and even killed for refusing to purchase a meaningless party membership card for a nominal fee.

Ok, so what does this tell me about the Organization’s “direction”? It tells me that I might as well find a raving lunatic walking down the street, spouting obscenities, and listen to that person for advice. The Watchtower adhered to no consistent standards in any of this, but they acted in the most self-serving manner possible.

When my father was imprisoned for refusing induction, he gave the matter some thought, evaluated the Witnesses and decided to accept peaceful alternative service as a hospital orderly. He had a family to support and could see no point to languishing in prison. When he returned, he was treated as a traitor and a turncoat. They moved to a different town and my mother told everyone that he had never been baptized in order that he not be disfellowshipped. He would not talk about the subject of “the Truth” and became quite irate if it was brought up. This is the situation I was born into, and believe me, it had a profound effect upon me.

Of course these days, accepting peaceful alternative service is a matter of conscience, so he suffered the displeasure of his peers for no reason. I never felt that refusing peaceful alternative service was wrong and felt it was quite reasonable. This was a very unreasonable viewpoint to adopt and caused great damage among the Witnesses of more than one generation. A lot of otherwise upstanding men had to go through life with a prison record. My father lived in fear that he would be exposed for having gone to prison like this and he paid a huge emotional price for following the “direction” of the Organization. In retrospect, he essentially had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Going to prison is traumatic, in and of itself, but being rejected by one’s peers afterward means that one has to fight the effects of these events alone. He spent more than a year behind bars, plus time in hospital service. His education was disrupted and promising career prospects vanished.

Yeah, I’m going to listen to these clowns when I make critical life decisions.


If the second statement amounts to one’s mouth writing a check the body can’t cash, the third statement is even worse. That’s a very large check, indeed.

If you trust Jehovah and Jesus, then you should trust the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, because Jehovah and Jesus trust them?! WHAT?!?! Where does one start?

Ok, the GB claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave is taken out of context from the parable of the talents. They are supposedly entrusted with the master’s belongings until he returns. If faithful, they would be given responsibility over all of the master’s belongings, so this misapplication of a parable is their justification for such a foolish belief, but let’s look at some facts.

First off, there is absolutely no reasons to apply types, anti-types, etc, to the parable of the talents. It’s not like the book of Daniel, where an angel explains that this is symbolic. This is a parable, nothing more. Russell’s wife decided that he (Russell) was that slave mentioned in the parable. At first he rejected the notion, but upon reflection decided that maybe he was indeed that slave. It was an unwanted gift from his wife, but once he tried it on, he found that he like the fit and continued to wear it. Eventually it was tied to the 144,000 and more recently, the Governing Body has decided that the mantle is only large enough to cover the 8 of them. When I was taught the doctrine, I found it questionable, at best, but hoped upon hope that it would be straightened out in the future. Instead, it has only gotten worse.

The next element in this is the fanciful notion that Christ returned in 1914, took a look at what was happening within Christendom and decided that Russell’s Bible Students were the ones he would back. Bloody roight! Of course, this depends upon Christ actually returning in 1914. Their version is that Michael and Jesus are one and the same, so Michael hurled down the dragon in 1914, took off his Archangel hat, put on his Messiah/King hat and hopped on down to earth where a very irritated Satan would be rampaging, then made his inspection, slapped his seal of approval on the Bible Students, saw to it that their leadership was disciplined by being imprisoned for accusations they consider false, then signed over his earthly belongings to them.

OTOH, what if Satan will be cast down in the future (which will coincide with the Great Tribulation) and Christ didn’t actually return in 1914. If that’s the case, their Preterism falls apart and they are left with no sanction from God or Jesus. From their point of view, clinging to 1914 is absolutely essential. Another inflated check written by the mouth of the Watchtower leadership and it appears to have been marked NSF.


My final thought regards partaking of the emblems. Simply stated, Christians are commanded to partake. The first time I did, the heavens did not open up, no doves descended nor were there any profound revelations, but I felt that I had done what needed to be done and came away feeling quite good about it all. Many believe that early Christians observed Communion at least weekly and probably met on Sundays, as a way of distinguishing their activities as being apart from Mosaic Law. The scriptures do not specify how frequently it is to be observed, except to say “often”. It is up to us as individuals to decide when to observe, but I personally can see no reason to not to observe this any time we are in fellowship with other Christians. It is an affirmation that we share in the sufferings of the Christ. There is no reason NOT to observe on the day of Passover, and indeed I do, but there is no particular day specified in scripture. I tend to suspect that early Christians did so whenever they met in fellowship and especially so in view of the persecution they faced which meant that scheduled meetings were not always possible.

My personal opinion, and please take it as nothing more than that, is that no one goes to heaven. I believe that the role of Christians is to rule with Christ as part of a government which is given its authority from heaven, but which will employ rulers whom will operate under Christ’s authority in an earthly capacity. I could be mistaken in this, but it makes a lot more sense to me than sending humans, born in an earthly realm, to live in a heavenly realm. Offered only as food for thought.

• Reply by Andrew on 2020-03-29 18:37:09

  Chet:
  
  Thank you for your heartfelt and straightforward comments. There are about 20 in my local congregation who are going to meet on a phone conference to observe the memorial. I suspect that most, if not all will partake, but all are welcome whether they partake or not. All of us have also been horrified by the recent Watchtower articles that insist that obedience to the Governing Body is a requirement of salvation. Some in my congregation call it blasphemy. I don't know what to call it, but it is unscriptural, self serving, reprehensible, and it is causing a small but growing minority of the Witnesses in my area to consider leaving the organization. Thanks again for your well-written and though provoking post.
  
  Andrew

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-29 19:02:25

    If it’s happening in your congregation, you can safely assume that it’s happening in many places. The quarantine measures now in effect could have a major impact on the Witnesses.
    
    The influence of the Organization will be lessened when all meetings are done by remote hookup. Some will find that without the constant drumbeat from the platform, they may formulate some thoughts that disagree with the Witnesses. When the quarantine measures begin to be relaxed, I suspect that attendance will be lower and will never fully recover.
    
    Perhaps more importantly, when Memorial is observed in the home, and no ill effects are felt, a lot of people may wonder why they need the Kingdom Hall as a place of worship. The influence of the Elders will not be as great as it once was.
    
    I have heard that if you tie a baby elephant up with a small diameter rope, That once it is fully grown, it will never realize that it is capable of breaking that rope. The elephant imposes it’s own limitation, because it is convinced that it can’t break the rope.
    
    Witnesses have been conditioned to believe that they have to go to meetings, no matter what. They are convinced that they cannot miss meetings without serious consequences. It is implied that their very livelihood is dependent upon their service and meeting attendance. I wonder how many Witnesses will come to realize that they are like the elephant in the illustration above, afraid to test the strength of the restrictions which bind them, but now aware of the fact that they are in fact free of manmade restraint.

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-31 17:49:19

    Great point, Just Asking.
    
    The book Worldwide Security Under the Prince of Peace, page 10, explains the JW position that Christ is the Mediator, not fall all men, but for their select few. I remember that from the time, but was sufficiently brainwashed that I didn't take exception to what they were saying. BTW, that is the only Watchtower publication in my home, and I keep it in case I am ever called upon to prove this to a PIMI.
    
    For some time now, I have felt that the Witnesses essentially worship their Organization. I'm sure most loyal and active Jws would shriek at the notion, but the degree of trust, attention and adulation given to the visible organization behind the JWs has definitely crossed some lines. I have seen Witnesses with veritable shrines to Bethel in their homes.
    
    The incident at Mt. Sinai comes to mind, when the Israelites built a golden calf to worship in place of their true Deliverer. As I recall, it didn't end pleasantly for the idolaters. Since then, many people have decided that they needed a visible representation of God and idolatry has reared its head many times and in many places through the years. I have personally seen Witnesses with Watchtower tie tacks and other ornamentation that displays the Watchtower's logos and, of course, the nearly ubiquitous blue JW.org logos on buildings and even as pins to identify one as a JW.
    
    One other thing that has occurred to me is that the Witnesses have taken the Divine Name (at least one interpretation of it) upon themselves. Taking up God's name in a useless way is something we can count on being punished for. If the JWs have exceeded their authority by doing so, it would not surprise me if they were to end up on the receiving end of some punishment. When I left I prayed a prayer of repentance for some of the things I did while claiming to bear the name of the One True God.

    • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-31 19:47:11

      They have all but dealt Jesus out of the game.

  • Reply by Andrew on 2020-03-31 18:03:29

    I agree with everything you said. I certainly would not want to be in their position. I'm sure God would have plenty of uncomfortable questions to ask me. I often wonder: Do they really know how ridiculous their claims are or are they oblivious?

    • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-31 18:09:24

      I would not, for any reason imaginable. want to claim that Christ didn't die for all men.

• Reply by Andrew on 2020-03-29 21:49:55

  I think you're right. After a few months of private (or family) reflection, many Witnesses may wake up and realize that a true relationship with God and Christ in no depends upon their attendance at meetings or their obedience to a group of men. Elders have already accused me of attempting to "draw away disciples after myself" because when publishers ask me if they need to be obedient to the Governing Body to make it into the New World, I tell them to believe so only if they can find it in the Bible. The worst sin a Witness can commit is having an opinion. Of course, they refer to it as succumbing to "independent thinking."

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-29 22:27:54

    A devout Witness of many years told me, not too many years ago, that they needed the brainwashing of the Organization to counteract the brainwashing of this system. Deliver the same inane message over and over again and it will take hold. That’s how television advertising works and it is deliberately inane. The stupidity of the message insults your intelligence and actually works against your defenses.
    
    From the perspective of distance, the Witness message is not all that different. The constant repetition, harping on trivialities, building a lengthy line of reasoning from one detail in a scripture are all ways of breaking through our defenses. But if everyone is at home, there’s no penalty for rolling one’s eyes or turning the volume way down. I’d be quite surprised if that isn’t happening with more and more of the Witnesses.
    
    Keep in mind the context; the Witnesses have been losing members of long standing in recent years. Honest, devoted and loyal people that said “enough” and refused to drink the tainted kool-aid. Without the social pressure of meetings, it’s only going to accelerate. Subtle cues, such as a fleeting facial expression might be suppressed at a meeting, but not at home. Spouses that privately harbored doubts might feel more inclined to reveal these to one another and I could see entire families breaking free.
    
    The events of the current quarantine (my choice of words) will be felt throughout the world. Things will change for years to come in business, government and social structures. It will be a new normal and the massive (but already shrinking) JW Organization might find itself unsupportable.
    
    In any event, I wish for all the opportunity to worship free of interference.

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-03-29 15:28:37

@ Yobec I salute your post. Another ARMOURY in shelf. As it seems

....1 Corinthians 4:5 .Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God.

Who are CHRIST'S BROTHERS Will indeed be DECIDED in DUE TIME when the LORD RETURNS after all verse 4 of the cited Corinthians states it is the LORD that will EXAMINE all.

IT'S hard to sit-in for today's watchtower study and this article for next week. Even at today's minor gathering I could Sense the confusion when it got to paragraphs 14 - 16 among the young member amidst us. It has been PARROTING all along.

Comment by Nightingale on 2020-03-29 17:43:26

I agree, it's all the going to heaven business that has caused this confusion. Without it everything is much easier to understand. It's tragic how witnesses think that teachings about "heavenly hope" or "heavenly resurrection" are biblical truths when they are never even mentioned in the Bible.

Comment by yobec on 2020-03-29 18:28:59

Within the realm of Christendom, ( JW included ), the understanding is that A) All faithful ones are going to heaven, B) All are going to be resurrected on earth and C) Some will go to heaven and some will stay on earth.
Good luck in finding which one is the accurate one as each have their own convincing arguments and interpretation of the scriptures.
While I don't claim to know the answer, I must say that the idea that some would go join Christ and share in executing Satan and the demons, sounds like poetic justice to me
I have been out and awake for almost 20 years now and have found it best when talking to someone, to allow them to keep their destination aspiration. I prefer focusing on helping them develop an appreciation for the gift of the reconciliation. I do share with them the 3 destination doctrines together with each ones convincing arguments but I don't make it my business to try and push one belief over the other.

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-03-31 18:45:32

  Hello Yobec. You mentioned the war of Jesus Christ against Satan and the demons. I smiled some time ago when I found how TM III looks forward to killing his enemies alongside Christ. The text is in Rev 17:14:
  "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
  
  But the called and chosen and faithful ones are not connected with the process of battle, but with the Lamb, with their King himself. And in this spiritual sense they overcome enemies. BTW, I can't imagine I am killing my enemies ;)).
  
  Love to you. Frankie

Comment by Chet on 2020-03-29 18:38:37

The notion of being whisked up to heaven, to live there forever, as a reward for virtue probably is more deeply rooted in the mythology of the Greeks than in any other place, although I’m certain that variations of this have appeared in all sorts of cultures, throughout time.

The JW approach appealed to a lot of people because it emphasized an earthly hope (which is not all that uncommon in modern Christendom) and reserved heaven for 144,000 people, whom you were statistically unlikely to be a part of. The problem was that they basically came to think of the Other Sheep as inferior and not party to the New Covenant. A friend who’d was at Bethel told me of being berated by “anointed” brothers and even being reminded that he served as a slave to the anointed. Needless to say, he has long since taken his leave from the Witnesses.

Throughout the years, I have heard many explanations of the 144,000 of Revelation, the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures. They obviously represent something, but the Bible does not explain every detail. We will find out in God’s time, not our own. The explanation of co-ruling with Christ on earth makes more sense than any other explanation I have heard and serves a practical purpose. If the Kingdom is to be a government, it will have to have some substantial presence on earth. Even during my most active years as a Witness, I never could understand how 144,000 humans promoted to heavenly life would communicate with earthly subjects of that kingdom.

What I find most fascinating is that there are many people questioning their beliefs and that there are some common conclusions being reached. The Witness teaching of the 144,000 is a perfect example. People whom have looked beneath the surface are coming to realize that this doctrine is not adding up and the results are quite evident. The number of people partaking has more than doubled since the ‘80s and I suspect that many more are partaking privately. What was unthinkable a few decades back is growing rapidly among JWs.

Comment by Christian on 2020-03-29 18:56:56

Another pre-memorial watchtower beat up. So much fuss about who should or shouldn't partake of the very emblems that Jesus commanded us to partake of in remembrance of his great sacrifice for ALL mankind. As to who is of the 'anointed' during the 19th, 20th and 21st century, seems rather redundant to me. In the 1st century there was probably many more the 144000 Christians in the world. How rude of wt to suppose that some of their modern day members, if any, should be included and others not. I've been taking the emblems for the past ten years or so after decades of being told I shouldn't. The location of my hopes for the future are not the basis of my doing so. I partake and I believe every dedicated Christian should do so, at least once a year in remembrance of our Lord Jesus Christ. This last year I partook at home, and those of us present first ate a meal of roasted lamb along with herbs and unleavened bread. After the meal we put aside the dirty plates, refilled our glasses of red wine and after a 10-15 minute outline of the events that had occurred we had prayers, broke bread, drank wine said more prayers and rejoiced. It was the most memorable memorial I'd ever engaged in 60 plus years of attendance with JWs. My hope is simple, to me. I believe it to be with Christ for eternity, as to whether that is here on Earth or in the Heavens is surely in The Lord's hands. Who am I to run around declaring God's hidden will as if I'm special. There is no place for elevation of any of us. We only need to elevate Yahweh and Yeshuah not any humans. Thank you brothers for your kind attention in allowing me the privilege of saying these few words.

Comment by Psalmbee on 2020-03-29 21:45:56

It's their main but not only way of remaining in their position of "regents" by keeping Christ incapacitated and not recognizing his full scope of Authority!


Psalmbee, (2 Jn :9)

• Reply by Chet on 2020-03-29 22:12:35

  Pantomiming the Communion with no one partaking is said to be quite similar to a “No Christ” ritual where people refuse the bread and wine as a way of showing their rejection of Christ. The bizarre nature of this has not been lost on me and I used to wonder what an initiated visitor would think if they walked in the very moment the bread and wine were passed. It would look like a whole bunch of people refusing communion with Christ.

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-03-30 22:08:11

    That’s really on target. I regret ever being a part of their ritual.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-03-30 05:02:36

Thank you BC for the article. Good to have your mind on board here.

I do think we have to ask ourselves serious questions around this matter.

Firstly, Jesus command is clear - "Keep doing this in remembrance of me". The Insight book cites Matthew 20;20-21 and John 23:21-30 to prove that Judas was not present when Jesus said "You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials". This is in Luke 22:28, where he makes his "covenant for a kingdom". The Insight book has to suggest that Luke's account is "evidently" not in strict chronological order in order to maintain WT position. Luke's account (alone) has the cup passed and the command to "Keep doing this in remembrance of me", just before Jesus says "the hand of my betrayer is with me at table.

Whether Judas was present is not something that can be proved. If we work from Luke's account, he was there. If we work from John's account, he left after being identified, but we still cannot say exactly where this was in relation to the command to "keep doing this in remembrance of me". There is much evidence that Christians kept this command on a weekly basis, both from the account in 1 Corinthians 11 and from early history.

The worrying thing is alluded to at Matthew 12:31 - could we be sinning against the holy spirit by deliberately ignoring Jesus direct command ? It is food for thought.

Comment by marielle on 2020-03-30 12:01:35

Le § 2 nous dit que « le Juif » sont les oints, et que ceux qui ne sont pas oints, servent à leurs côtés.
D’après Zacharie 8 : 23 « dix hommes de toutes les langues des nations saisiront le pan d’un Juif en disant : « NOUS AVONS ENTENDU DIRE QUE DIEU EST AVEC VOUS ».
AVONS-NOUS ENTENDU DIRE QUE DIEU EST AVEC LES OINTS, quand pendant un siècle, ils se sont trompés sur leur propre identité d’esclave fidèle et avisé ?
,
Avons-nous entendu dire que Dieu était avec eux, quand, pendant un siècle, ils ont prétendu que Jésus était venu en 1918, alors « QUE L’ON NE SAIT PAS QUAND IL VIENT » ?

Contrairement à ce que dit w10/5/9 p. 21-25
Obéir aux directives du collège central, composé de oints, n’est absolument pas la même chose qu’obéir à Christ.
Obéir aux paroles de Christ est de beaucoup préférable.

Avoir une espérance terrestre, ne nous prive pas de l’union avec Christ.
2 Corinthiens 5 : 17,19.
« Aussi, si QUELQU’UN est en union avec Christ, il est une nouvelle création ».
Ces choses nouvelles, c’est Dieu, qui par le moyen de Christ, réconciliait UN MONDE avec lui-même ».
Ce monde, je pense que c’est nous qui (verset 20) sommes des ambassadeurs à la place de Christ.
Un « MONDE » peut-il se composer d’un nombre précis de 144 000 personnes ?

Christ lui même nous dit :
Matthieu 10 : 32
« Si QUELQU’UN affirme devant les hommes qu’il est en union avec moi, j’affirmerai moi aussi qu’il est en union avec moi devant mon Père qui est au ciel ».

Expression « en union avec moi » changée dans la TMN par « être mon disciple ».
QUELQU’UN voulant dire N’IMPORTE QUELLE PERSONNE, il était difficile de maintenir que « l’union avec Christ » était exclusivement réservée à 144 000 personnes.

Paul voulait-il dire, qu’il souhaitait vivre avec Christ quand il pense que la mort est préférable pour être avec lui, en Philippiens 1 : 23 ?
« Je me trouve pressé par deux choses ; mais ce que je désire vraiment, c’est la libération et ÊTRE AVEC CHRIST, car cela bien sûr, est de beaucoup le meilleur ».


Est-ce que nous sommes tous réunis en Christ en esprit, avant que nos corps mortels soient relevés ?
Romains 8 : 10,11
« Mais si Christ est en union avec vous, le corps est bien mort, à cause du péché, mais l’esprit est vie à cause de la justice. 11 Si donc l’esprit de celui qui a relevé Jésus d’entre les morts habite en vous, celui qui a relevé Christ Jésus d’entre les morts rendra aussi la vie à VOS CORPS MORTELS GRACE A SON ESPRIT QUI RÉSIDE EN VOUS ».

Sommes-nous ressuscités dans la ressemblance de sa résurrection, avant que la nouvelle Jérusalem descende sur terre apporter ses bénédictions aux hommes ?

Nous avons foi en Christ qui « éclaire » tout homme.

Amitiés fraternelles à tous..

Comment by exquisite inquisite on 2020-03-30 20:04:55

Ok, so just reading 1 Corinthians 11 in context, all I get from it was the congregation were taking advantage of the food and wine and indulging in it whilst there rather than having their evening meal before hand at home. Thus by doing that, they were disrespecting the arrangement and the sacredness if the occasion. So with that they were proving unworthy to eat and drink the emblems? Is that right? If so goes to show another lovely example of their cherry picking to support a theory, creating an uncertainty and a fear to prevent you from participating.

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-03-31 17:54:57

  Hi E.I. You are right. It is typical eisegesis approach (Luke 11:52 !)

Comment by Psalmbee on 2020-03-30 20:33:00

Hi JA,

I have often wondered why the Almighty God would create man to transform, morphe, or evolve into spiritual beings. Whats the purpose in that?, especially considering the fact that he already has myriads of myriads in his storehouse of Heaven. This Earth is full of evil ones that he has, or has had thrown out from Heaven, what do you reckon they are busy doing?

Jesus told the Apostles and in all likelihood is telling us as well, "where I go, you cannot come..........". (Jn 8:21)


I'm hearing you my brother,


Psalmbee,

Comment by Chet on 2020-03-30 21:56:46

I have to comment on the groundswell that has been raised by this post. All sorts of people posting and we seem to be of one mind, regarding the belief in a heavenly hope. Obviously, this false teaching has reached its “sell by” date. These are thoughts which have built within me over the last few years.

Five years ago, I attended the Memorial. The year after, I was traveling and a huge storm caused it to be canceled. It is, perhaps, the third time in over 60 years that I’ve missed a Memorial. The next year I observed privately, then two years ago, it occurred to me that I should partake, so I did. I mentioned this to a good friend who had long ago left the Witnesses and in a matter of a few seconds he agreed with me and decided that he too, should partake.

Last year, he sent me Meleti’s video on the subject, which was a pleasant surprise. This thought seems to be gaining momentum. I suspect that a lot of bread and wine will be consumed by various Witnesses as they observe communion in the privacy of their own homes.

I also suspect that the Organization will never be able to rein this back in. Once people get a taste of freedom, they tend to want more of it. Going out on a limb here; I would not be at all surprised if the JW Organization is much smaller, one year from now. Perhaps the dam has broken.

Comment by Oregongirl on 2020-03-30 23:15:09

Hello all. I am new here. Just a brief background before asking my question. I was raised "around" the "truth", baptized in 2004, and have only recently "awakened" to JW teachings. I have not attended a meeting for over a year now, for various personal reasons. A close friend of mine who also has awakened sent me a link to this website many months ago and I have been reading and studying the various articles since. Along with watching the videos posted on YouTube. I find all the articles refreshing and full of truth. Plain truth. Simple, logical, and easy to understand. As it should be in my opinion. Anyway, as the memorial approaches, and I have read over pretty much every article and scripture there is I have concluded that I should be partaking. Not because I "feel" or "believe" that I am somehow "annointed" or special, but simply because it is what my redeemer Jesus asked me to do. Since this will be my first time, I'd like to try and get it right to the best of my ability. Can anyone reccomend a wine that would be acceptable for this occasion? I have researched the web extensively and it would seem there are many to choose from, but also many variations and issues as well. Then of course there is the ingrained teaching from the organization that it should be free from spices, and additional yeast. Of which I wonder where they are receiving their information. How do they know the wine jesus drank didn't have these additional items in the wine? Any help would be greatly appreciated in this matter. I look forward to reading more articles that are clearly backed by scriptures and not human interpretations or influenced by man made doctrines. Thank you so much for making yourselves available to those that have longed for real truth!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-31 09:50:36

  I don't think it really matters. Any dry red wine will do. It's what it represents that is important. By the way, welcome to the sites, OregonGirl.

  • Reply by Oregongirl on 2020-03-31 12:17:00

    Thank you Meleti, I discussed this issue and subject over with my husband who has also left the organization, he said pretty much the same thing. I guess I got hung up on the physical aspect, the wine, over the symbolic aspect, what it represents. My husband said "what if there is a person or people who don't have access to wine, maybe only water, or some other form of drink, do you think Jesus would condemn them because they didn't specifically have wine?" I know my Lord, he is love like his Father, and I cannot imagine him condemning anyone for doing their best with what they have. Thank you for the reply. I hope you have a great day, even amongst all this current madness.

    • Reply by lost in space on 2020-04-04 03:31:38

      Hey, welcome Oregangirl, just a few years ago when my husband and I were first allowed ourselves to research the JW history and doctrines after decades as Witnesses , (we are 51 and 47 now), we were so happy to have found Eric Wilsons and co. insightful, refreshing website and now youtubes, as well. It is reassuring that others have journeyed this path before us.
      Have you looked at the likes of conscientious Christians, who for their dissention to the dictates of the GB, speaking the truths they found have been kicked out, and found Christian freedrom - Ray Franz, Barbara Anderson,Carl Olaf Johnsson, and many more, also to be found in the exjw Youtube community.
      There is also an awesome subReddit community over at r/exjw as well.
      All the very best for your husband and yourself in your new mental and spiritual directions.

Comment by Jon Adab on 2020-03-31 01:35:33

The caption under the picture at the start of the article says that the 10 men = the other sheep.
In the Paradise Restored to Mankind book on page 256 para39, it shows that Zechariah 8:23 was fulfilled beginning when Cornelius a Gentile converted to Christianity being anointed even before his water baptism!
Therefore by WT's own "logic" the ten men from all nations that grab the skirt of the Jew(Israel of God) were and still are "anointed" Christians just like Cornelius.
Therefore the other sheep are anointed Christians.

• Reply by Chester on 2020-04-01 09:00:50

  Yes good point. Since I left, and reflecting on this very point, I have often thought the disciples Jesus shared the last supper with were not anointed at that time so all should partake as you said, he was talking to the ones “who had stuck with him in his trials”, which apply to all Christians. Also could this not be applied too with the idea of who the generation is? When they changed the idea that the generation was a ‘wicked generation that see the signs and do nothing about their standing before God” in the 90’s to the anointed, they said as part of the argument that the context shows in Matt 24 he was speaking to his disciples. So how do you cross the bridge between none of his disciples at that time we’re anointed, but then it means the application in modern times means it applies only to the generation being all of the anointed until a certain time frame?
  Again, far too many holes in the plot.
  
  I get what you say about John. Not sure what Eric has suggested about this in his research, but John 10:16 may not be referring to the ‘other sheep’ of the earthly class, but to the gentile class to be brought in. Therefore no distinction between 2 classes but sheep brought in as Christ’s faithful followers he instructed to partake of the bread and wine at the later time.

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-04-01 09:56:30

    I am all but certain that John 10:16 refers to the Gentiles grafted in.

    • Reply by Chez on 2020-04-02 07:12:20

      I feel the same about this. Particularly when Zechariah 8:23 is read.
      then John 10:16 followed by
      1 Corinthians 14:25
      
      Another point someone made here somewhere also ring bells.
      
      The term "Anointed Christian" is unnecessary double speak. It's kinda like saying "anointed anointed one" ...

Comment by Beroeans Creed on 2020-03-31 06:54:03

At first glance when we all began our journeys as Jehovah’s Witnesses the teaching of a small number taken from humans on earth made sense using the analogy of a man-made democratic republic government. (USA) Representatives from among the people chosen by their experience to serve in the government. So, it is easy to understand how Jehovah could choose some from imperfect humans to serve with Jesus in the Kingdom over survivors and resurrected after Armageddon, the idea being they could truly empathize with mankind due to their former flesh and blood condition.
That teaching has been discussed many times on BP, the point being the Organization has successfully used this to form a very powerful organizational construct that has taken away from millions (by their permission) the simple ceremony of the command from our savior to “do this in remembrance of me” the comments here have nicely brought out really an organized wholesale rejection of the emblems that represent the very hope of mankind.
Why?
The GB uses Matthew 24:45-47 to support their self-appointed position as the FADS, but notice how they make no application of the “evil slave” from 48-51 read these verses and think about the actions of the GB that we have all awakened too and see which description of the slave really applies to them.
48 “But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.
If we view the modern-day organization as being in the same condition as the apostate nation of Israel who bore the name of God, it will answer many questions of how Jehovah views this situation, and just as God eventually brought discipline on that nation he is now, I suggest much to the surprise of the GB, currently doing the same to the modern day Bethel (house of God) who likewise carry his name.
1 Peter 4:17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?
During the memorial season let’s keep in mind what was put simply by Wild Olive in the previous review.
….” the term anointed Christian doesn’t appear in the bible because it’s a doubled-up term. The word “Christ” means anointed, so a follower of “Christ” is anointed as well, the person can’t be Christian and be unanointed, just not possible. JWs don’t seem to see the irony in the terminology, but, that’s the power of propaganda.”

• Reply by Chez on 2020-03-31 07:27:00

  Thanks BC.
  Not so much to comment on your comment above.. I have reread the entire article a few times. Fascinating, thought provoking stuff.
  My main purpose in writing this is just to point out that the pic with the GB in the chart is from, I think NOT 2015, but 2013 (same month and date). Thanks again.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-03-31 09:48:20

    Thanks Chez.

Comment by Frankie on 2020-03-31 17:42:37

Dear brother JA, You have very well pointed out the problem of the terms "heavenly hope", "144 000" and "anointed".

But I'd like to mention two paragraphs of your comment. Paragraph 2 is questionable, I think the Bible does not imply that "he will return to heaven and not come back again". It would require contextual proof. But I don't want to do that. I am concerned about point 3 - the interpretation of Jesus' parable of the king's wedding - Matt 22:1-14. It is about the called and the chosen.

This parable (IMO) does not speak about distinguishing of anointed Christians into "ordinary” Christians and "ruling” ones. I have not found such a division elsewhere in the Bible. If the "ordinary" Christians would be called and "ruling” Christians would be chosen, then we could reintroduce the system of two-class Christians. I present the following as an alternative explanation.

Called and chosen (Matt 22:1-14)
-------------------------------------------
1. First, the king invites selected group (1-7) - we can assume that those are Jews, and those as a whole, as a nation, rejected him (John 1:11).
2. Then the king invites everyone who the servants find on the road (8-10). The King calls all people indiscriminately, Jews and Gentiles, bad and good (John 1:7).
3. The man without wedding garment was cast into the outer darkness. This man doesn't appreciate king's invitation (11-13). Those who remain will eventually attend the King's (Lamb's) wedding.
Verse 14 concludes the whole parable and at the same time explains it: "For many are called, but few are chosen".

So there are only 2 groups at the end.
First group
a) all the people who openly rejected Jesus,
b) those who have accepted his invitation, but who do not respect it, are insincere and do not follow his command (Matt. 7: 21-23). None of this first group is a true Christian.
Second group
Everyone who eventually attends (partake) at the king's wedding until the end.

So all people were called without exception. But only those who were called and, at the same time, were chosen by God, those who are with the Lamb, those who remained at the wedding, only with them our Lord makes a new covenant (Luke 22:20), i.e. with all faithful Christians.
"Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, ” (Col 3:12) - i.e. all Christians are chosen
"They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." (Rev 17:14).

Love to you. Frankie

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-03-31 19:27:04

  Hi JA. Thank you for your thoughts and for your information background. I didn't mean my comment as a critic or arguing, but as another interpretation. Your comments here are often interesting for me, as well as this one. I am glad you are here. And as to destination - no matter where and no matter how, I will be glad to serve my Master, my King and my brother, Jesus Christ.
  Take care and be safe in this dangerous time. Frankie.

Comment by When Does the Calling of the Children of God Cease? Part 2 – Preach From The Housetops on 2020-03-31 19:35:04

[…] I did have in mind responding to the follow up Watchtower article to this one entitled: “We Will Go With You” but I don’t think I could do a better job than Beroeans Creed. […]

Comment by Bobcat on 2020-04-01 05:45:55

For me, what made Zech 8:23 really fascinating was when I found that Paul referenced it at 1Co 14:25. If Zech 8:23 is describing so-called "non-anointed Christians," then, based on the WT's explanation of it, Paul's reference to it should be impossible.

I have several threads on the DTT site that explain my research into its use at 1Co 14:25:

Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 45:14

10 Gentiles Taking Hold of a Jew (Zech 8:23)

The Great Crowd, Abrahamic Covenant, and New Covenant

Comment by Chester on 2020-04-01 06:32:18

Thank you for this article. Really refreshing and based on sound logic. I must say I was surprised to find out that in the new book they have released (Eze, which I haven’t read) that they have abandoned the teaching linking Jerusalem with Christendom! That was hounded into me for 30 years and abandoned in a single swoop. I wonder how they will apply the “disgusting thing standing in Christendom’s holy place” as that is what they say happened in the first century and will happen at the outbreak of the great Tribulation, which surely depends on Jerusalem representing Christendom? Sometimes I feel they forget about some of the things they have written, of how they can make a statement ending one doctrine but then there are many other items attached to that are left open in the air which no longer fit.
As you say my friend....their own material condemns themselves.
Thanks

• Reply by Chet on 2020-04-01 07:48:48

  That is actually a very major development. I no longer believe that the Gog of Magog attack is symbolic of an attack directed towards Christians, but is in fact an attack which takes place in the literal land of Israel. The dominoes appear to be being stacked accordingly as we speak. Keep in mind, this is not about some blessing for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of God’s name and the promise to Abraham. Since adopting a literal read of the related prophecies, Ezekiel 36 - 38, Zechariah 12 - 14 for example, things make a lot more sense to me. It’s also good to keep in mind that 2/3 of Israel will lose their lives, according to prophecy, but the remaining 1/3 will mourn what they did to the Christ and seek reconciliation with God.
  
  I don’t, for one minute, think that the Watchtower is in some way receiving special revelation from God, but I do see that Christians worldwide seem to be taking in knowledge and rejecting tradition. The mainstream churches are suffering losses while smaller bible based groups seem to be proliferating. IMHO, this is a wonderful development which may see many of our neighbors take a stand in favor of Christ.

Comment by kyaecker on 2020-04-04 21:02:22

With the memorial done in homes this year, how are the brothers going to keep a count. This will be the first year one can partake with out scrutiny.

• Reply by Chet on 2020-04-05 02:29:00

  That’s come to my mind, too. Hopefully a lot of people will follow their conscience, instead of following men. I’ve never partaken at a KH and have no intention of ever walking into one again. In any event, no one will ever be welcome to challenge my participation in communion with Christ.

• Reply by Beroeans Creed on 2020-04-05 07:47:42

  Good point JA, but they will find some way to have it reported as the Org. Is obsessed with numbers. Just look at the new FS arrangement,
  Zoom meeting for service and then everyone counts time writing letters just to keep the publishers in routine and reporting their “time”
  If they don’t have a method of counting partakers it shouldn’t be any great surprise, as remember the only number currently that matters is 8 when it comes to the partakers!

  • Reply by Chet on 2020-04-05 10:54:00

    Letter writing has always struck me as a waste of time. It makes even less sense, in these days, when one can compose a letter and print as many copies as they want with the click of a mouse.

    • Reply by Chet on 2020-04-05 16:46:23

      Field service has become busy work.
      
      Years ago, I married a young woman who was a regular pioneer. I went out in service with her and the other young pioneers in the congregation (10-15 years younger than I) and soon realized that all they were doing was wasting time and cruising around. They were having a great time, socially, but accomplishing very little; all with the applause of the adults in the congregation. These young pioneers are all in their 50s, by now, and I would love to know what has become of them.
      
      I am divorced from that person and have no idea where she is or what she is doing. Soon after we married, she drop off the rolls of the pioneers, which was fine by me. Many of these pioneer youth treated our home like they owned it and I was more than happy to not have them around.
      
      It was shortly after that when I started to question the whole shootin’ match. All of this fuss over “pioneers” who turned out to be kids goofing off and doing just enough to “count time”, made me feel that the whole thing had gone off the rails. I saw the political side of appointments about that time too. Nothing much had changed about me, but as soon as I was an elder’s son-in-law, I was recommended as a servant. By that time, I didn’t want it.
      
      For a while, I clung to hope for reform within the Organization, but it soon became obvious that things were deteriorating. My marriage suffered as I could no longer go along with the pretense of it all, much to the chagrin of my in-laws. Eventually we divorced and I tried to return to activity as a Witness but everything I saw told me that this group had taken a major step away from goodness. I faded out, not s much deliberately, as it was a natural product of being offended by what I was seeing and hearing at the meetings.
      
      Sometime thereafter, the truly laughable overlapping generations doctrine came along and any last claim of Bona Fides (good faith) on the part of the Organization had been erased. From my viewpoint, they were now actively lying to cover their former positions, instead of admitting that they had been in error. It was at this point that I felt free to speak my mind with regard to the Organization, because it was obvious that they were acting to preserve their own skin and no longer even trying to pursue truthfulness.
      
      I can forgive sincere people whom are deceived. Even most Witnesses did not know anything of the 607 BCE deception until quite recently. The Christian denominations hold to the teaching of the Trinity, which I feel to be false, but they at least believe their teachings to be true. (It’s between God and them to sort this out.) However, the Watchtower leadership had the errancy of 607 pointed out to them and still justified their position. They became deliberate purveyors of falsehood at that point in time, supporting a falsehood in order to perpetuate their raison d'être. Being wrong is far different than knowing you are wrong, but still teaching a falsehood.
      
      As I understand it, the number of congregation mergers and the sale of Kingdom Halls continues apace and there is a lot of evidence that they are floundering as an organization. For much of my life, such an event would have been unthinkable, but it sure looks like it’s happening before our eyes.

      • Reply by Chet on 2020-04-06 02:44:13

        I recall that once they said that perhaps some yet undiscovered archaeological evidence will be unearthed to place the date at 607. What hogwash! Perhaps there is yet undiscovered evidence that I descend from royalty, but I’m not holding my breath. What would happen if you wrote a large check based upon yet undiscovered money that you think should be in your checking account?
        
        Now, apply that same logic to a teaching which affects the life of literally millions of people. People have avoided starting families, walked away from educational opportunities and changed the plan of their entire life because this church spun a fanciful tale which conveniently ended with being chosen as the returned Christ’s instrument to govern matters on the earth.
        
        As I understand the legal terms pertaining to this, the fact that they knew the date 607 BCE was not supported by history but taught it anyway, would be considered a material omission. I recently had minor surgery and I had to sign a document attesting that I had been informed that the surgeon had a financial interest in the surgery center where the procedure was to be performed. This was to avoid a material omission. I was paying that surgery center hundreds of dollars and had the right to know that some fraction of that would logically end up with the surgeon, on top of his fees for performing the procedure. No worries, on that one.
        
        In the case of the Watchtower, the material omission directly affected the confidence one might have in the Organization. Their logic of having been chosen by Christ at the time of his return crumbles if the 607 BCE date is inaccurate. I was taken in by this narrative at one time and this belief had an influence on my decisions with regard to their advice. I can’t help but think that a commercial business which employed such tactics would be in real trouble with the authorities.
        
        I believe that they are in their death throes as an organization and my greatest concern is the number of sad and disoriented people who will be left in the wake, should they be completely discredited or actually cease to exist as an organization.
        
        I recently heard of an elder who was well along in years. He suddenly came to the realization that Armageddon wasn’t going to happen before he died and he was quite emotionally lost upon the realization. Just hearing about that, I felt great sadness that this poor, sincere and decent man would be forced to face his own mortality so late in life and that he had to spend his last weeks in so much distress and confusion.
        
        I suspect that the GBs are having their reward in full, right now. It’s going to be a rough ride if their world collapses and there are innumerable disenchanted Witnesses out there whom are angry about having been lied to. Enjoy the spotlight while you got it, boys.

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-04-05 07:34:53

I have a question based on a discussion I had with someone on RESURRECTION from that discussion this were the outcome:
1. First RESURRECTION........... Revelation 20:6 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17. With 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 serving as an explanation of Revelation 20:6 to how FIRST RESURRECTION will occur.

2. Second RESURRECTION................... John 5: 28,29

From what I can obtain from this individual, Jesus was referring to the SECOND RESURRECTION ONLY in that account of John 5:28,29.

Any view point pertaining to this welcomed. Sorry for placing this here. Don't know if it will be seen on the FOUR PART RESURRECTION TOPIC on this platform.

• Reply by Chet on 2020-04-05 10:51:42

  My understanding of this is that the First Resurrection are the dead in Christ, whom will rise first. This would be at the beginning of the Thousand Years and would allow these faithful one to participate in the millennial reign of Christ.
  
  The Second Resurrection is at the end of the Thousand Years and would allow persons whom had been judged worthy to live in a creation restored to its initial state. Apparently, from the verses in John, these would be judged based upon their past deeds. There are untold numbers of people that never heard of Christianity, but may have recognized that they were responsible to a Creator and lived accordingly.
  
  JMO