Hello, Eric Wilson here.
I’ve been surprised by the reaction my last video provoked from the Jehovah’s Witnesses community defending the JW doctrine that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Initially, I didn’t think this doctrine was that critical to the theology of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but the response tells me I underestimated its value to them. When I produced videos showing that the 1914 doctrine was false, I got very little scriptural argumentation. Oh sure, there were the haters with their hate, but that is just impotent bluster. I got even less resistances to the revelation that the other sheep doctrine was bogus. The biggest concern was whether or not paradise would be on earth. (Short answer: Yes, it will be.) So why did the video on Jesus not being an angel strike such a nerve with Witnesses?
Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses defend this teaching so tenaciously?
There are two spirits at work in the world. There is the holy spirit at work in children of God, and the spirit of Satan, the God of this world. (2 Co 4:3, 4)
Satan hates Jesus and will do whatever he can to keep us from getting a relationship with him and through him with our heavenly Father. The children of God are his enemy, because they are the seed by which his complete defeat is assured; so, he’ll do anything to block the development of that seed. (Ge 3:15) Misrepresenting Jesus is one of his chief ways of achieving that. He’ll do anything to destroy or pervert our relationship with the Son of God, which is why I felt compelled to start this series on the nature of God’s Son.
On one extreme, you have the Trinity doctrine. The majority of Christendom believes the Trinity represents the nature of God and therefore, the nature of God’s Son, or as they refer to him: “God the Son”. This belief is so central to their belief that they do not consider anyone who does not accept the Trinity to be a true Christian. (In case you’re wondering, we will be looking into the Trinity in detail in a series of upcoming videos.)
On the other extreme, you have the anti-trinitarian or unitarian Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with a minority of Christian sects, who—in the case of the Witnesses at least—give lip-service to Jesus as God’s Son, and even recognize him as a god, still denying his divinity and marginalizing him. For any Witness out there who disagrees with me, I would ask that before you write me flaming comments, you engage in a little exercise of your own. When you are out in your next field service group, sitting at your mid-morning coffee break, refer to Jesus instead of Jehovah in your casual conversation. At any point in the conversation where you would normally invoke Jehovah’s name, substitute Jesus. And for fun, refer to him as our “Lord Jesus”, a phrase that appears in Scripture over 100 times. Just watch the result. Watch the conversation comes to an abrupt halt as if you’d just used a swear word. You see, you’re not speaking their language anymore.
In the NWT bible, “Jesus” appears 1,109 times, but in the 5,000+ manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures, Jehovah’s name does not appear at all. Even if you add the number of times the NWT translation committee saw fit to insert his name arbitrarily—because they thought it should go there—you still find a four-to-one ratio in favor of Jesus’ name. Even given the Organization’s best efforts to have us focus on Jehovah, the Christian writers have us looking to the Christ.
Now take a comparative look at The Watchtower to see which name is emphasized.
‘Nuf said? No? Still have doubts? You think I’m exaggerating? Well, have a look at this illustration from the April 15, 2013 issue of The Watchtower.
Where is Jesus? Don’t come back to me, as some have, saying that Jesus isn’t depicted because this only represents the earthly part of Jehovah’s Organization. Really? Then why is Jehovah here? If it is only the earthly part, then why show Jehovah on his so-called chariot. (I say so-called because nowhere in this vision of Ezekiel, nor in the rest of the Bible for that matter, is Jehovah ever depicted riding a chariot. If you want a picture of God in a chariot, you have to go to pagan mythology. Don’t believe me? Google it!)
But back to the matter at hand. The Christian congregation is referred to as the Bride of Christ.
So, what do we have here? If you read Ephesians 5:21-33, you’ll see that Jesus is pictured as a husband with his bride. So here we have a picture of the Bride and the Father of the Bride, but the Groom is missing? Ephesians also calls the congregation the Body of the Christ. Christ is the head of the congregation. So, what do we have here? A headless body?
One of the reasons this diminishment of the role of Jesus has been made possible is the demoting of our Lord to the status of angel.
Remember, humans are only a little lower than the angels.
“…what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.” (Ps 8:4, 5 BSB)
So, if Jesus is just an angel, it means that you and I are just a little lower than Jesus. Does that seem silly, even blasphemous to you? It does to me.
Father tells us to, “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.” (Pr 26:5 BSB) Sometimes, the best way to show the absurdity of a line of reasoning is to carry it to its logical extreme. For instance: If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is a God, because John 1:1 says, paraphrasing, “In the beginning was Archangel Michael, and Archangel Michael was with God, and Archangel Michael was a god.” (John 1:1)
All things were made by, for, and through Archangel Michael according to John 1:3 and Col 1:16. Archangel Michael made the universe. We must put faith in Archangel Michael based on John 1:12. Archangel Michael is “the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through” Archangel Michael. (John 14:6) He is the “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Re 19:16) Archangel Michael is the “eternal father”. (Isaiah 9:6)
But some, still desperately clinging to the belief, will cite Revelation 12:7-12 and argue that who else but Jesus could be the one to throw the Devil out of heaven? Let’s have a look, shall we?
“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”” (Re 12:7-12)
Witnesses allege that this happened in October of 1914 and that Michael is really Jesus.
Modern-day anointed Christians pointed in advance to October 1914 as a significant date. (w14 7/15 pp. 30-31 par. 10)
Apparently, from the context, this battle took place because according to verse 10, “now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ”. Since Witnesses put the enthronement and authority of the Christ at October, 1914, the battle must have taken place then or shortly thereafter.
But what about the ensuing “woe to the earth and the sea”?
For Witnesses, the woe starts with the First World War, then continues with more wars, pestilences, famines and earthquakes. In short, because the devil was angry, he caused much of the bloodshed of the 20th century.
Additionally, the phrase “they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witness” must apply to Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1914 forward.
The problems start right away with this interpretation. First, according to Witnesses, the devil could not have been thrown down before October of 1914, but the war (the woe) he was supposedly responsible for due to his great rage, was already underway by that point. It had started in July of that year, and the nations had been preparing for it in one of the greatest arms races in history for the preceding ten years. Was the Devil planning to get angry?
Further, Christians had been ‘conquering Satan by the word of their witnessing since the time of Christ’. There is nothing unique about the faith and integrity of the Bible Students to distinguish them from faithful Christians down through the centuries.
Moreover, the authority of the Christ did not just come to pass in 1914, but had been in place since his resurrection. Did he not say, “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth”? (Mt 28:18) He got that in 33 C.E., and it would be hard to envision that more authority was given him later. Doesn’t “all authority” mean “all authority”?
But I think the real kicker is the following:
Think about this. Jesus leaves earth to return to heaven to receive the kingdom he has earned for his faithful course on earth. Jesus illustrated this in a parable that begins, “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return.” (Lu 19:12) When he arrived in heaven, in 33 C.E., this prophetic Psalm was fulfilled:
Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
(Psalm 110:1)
Jehovah tells Jesus, the newly crowned King, to sit tight while He (Jehovah) places the enemies of Jesus at his feet. Notice, God doesn’t destroy his enemies, but he puts them at his feet. Jehovah’s footstool is the earth. (Isaiah 66:1) It follows that Jesus’ enemies would be confined to the earth. That fits perfectly with what is described happening to Satan and his demons in Revelation chapter 12.
Nevertheless, Jesus does not do this. He is commanded to sit while Jehovah does it. Like any king, Jehovah God has armies that do his bidding. He is called “Jehovah of Armies” hundreds of times in the Bible and his armies are angelic. So, to make this Psalm come true, Michael, not Jesus, acts on God’s command and being one of the foremost angelic princes leads his army of angels to do battle with the Devil. In this way, Jehovah puts the enemies of Jesus at his feet.
When did this happen?
Well, when did the salvation, power, kingdom of God and authority of Christ come about? Certainly not in 1914. We just saw that Jesus claimed all authority was already his following his death and resurrection. The Kingdom of God and his Christ began then, but Jesus was told to sit patiently until his enemies were subdued as a stool for his feet.
There is therefore reason to believe the ousting of Satan happened in the first century, just after Jesus’ ascension to heaven. What about the rest of the vision described in Revelation chapter 12? That will be the topic of a future series of videos, God willing. As we look at the rest of the vision can we find consistency with the understanding that it happened in the first century? I am not a preterist, one who believes everything in the Christian Scriptures happened in the first century. I believe that we have to take the Scriptures as they come and follow the truth wherever it leads. I am not saying dogmatically that this prophecy was fulfilled at the time of Christ’s ascension, only that it is a distinct possibility and currently seems to fit with the Bible narrative.
It is a rule of logic that while we may not always know exactly what something is, we can very often rule out what it is not.
The evidence is that this prophecy was definitely not fulfilled in 1914. I believe the weight of evidence points to the first century, but if evidence comes forward to lend credibility to another date, we should all be open to consider it.
Did you notice how, by freeing ourselves from the preconceptions that force us to impose religious dogma onto our study of Scripture, we were able to come to an easier, scripturally consistent understanding than that which we held under our old beliefs? Isn’t that satisfying?
This is the result of looking at things exegetically rather than eisegetically. Do you remember what those two terms mean? We have discussed them in previous videos.
To put it another way, it is far more satisfying to let the Bible lead us to truth rather than try to force it to support our own truth.
Actually, the reason Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Michael the Archangel is Jesus is a direct result of eisegesis, of trying to force Scripture to support their own truth. The prophecies of the kings of the north and south as well as the 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel have all been affected by their need to support 1914.
This all makes for an excellent object lesson on the dangers of this study method. In our next video, we’ll use this as a means to learn how not to study the Bible and then we’ll redo our research utilizing the proper method for arriving at Bible truth. We will put the power of discovery into your hands, into the hands of the individual Christian, where it belongs. Not in the hands of some ecclesiastical authority, some Pope, some Cardinal, some Archbishop, or some Governing Body.
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Hi Eric. I reasoned on this before I discovered your video here, but can easily agree with your expose and reasoning, What do you think of the timing of Satan’s expulsion relative to what Jesus said to the seventy-two when they returned exclaiming how even the demons were cast out by them? (Luke 10:18 “And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.”) Was Jesus saying what he had just seen or would see? I tend to take him at his word. While the 72 were gone casting out demons from men, Christ witnessed the heavenly… Read more »
My personal view is that this occurred after Jesus died faithfully and said “It has been accomplished”. That is why he could then go to visit the spirits in prison that James refers to following his resurrection. But that is just a personal opinion.
I want to become a searcher of truth and in the past being an elder and a Bethelite, following men instead of the Christ and Jehovah, you have made it very clear how I have been searching in the wrong way.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your knowledge and willing heart to help us to know Jesus.
God Bless
Ed L
I sincerely believe JW and Seventh Day Adventist got that Jesus is the same as Micheal. From my studies of John 1:1 the beginning was referring to the creation of the Physical universe, careful study of the bible will make us see that the beginning is always the creation of the physical universe. There is no reference were the beginning talks about the creation of the heavenly beings. Please someone should correct me if i am wrong
But are not heavenly beings, i.e. angels, part of the universe. From the book of Daniel, (chapter 10) we learn that angels are constricted by time as we are. Time is a created thing, part of the Space Time Continuum, so it follows that they could be part of what is referred to in John 1:1.
Great argumentation, Eric. Don’t understand the resistance to your logic. It is so logical that Michael the archangel can’t be Jesus just as the Father can’t be the Son at the same time. Christendom has the Trinity dogma, Watchtower has the Michael/Jesus dogma, but both organisations are being dogmatic in their teachings and, what is worse, persecuting those who don’t buy into it.
Hello Frankie and all others too. Frankie in regards to your interpretation of Philippians and John 1:1 please consider this scripture after Jehovah describes His creative acts and differentiates Himself with the yet to come Messiah as follows. Isaiah 42:8 New American Standard Bible “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. We need to be careful to not ascribe glory that belongs only to Jehovah, that he demands for himself only to others even if it is His Son Jesus. With regards to John 1:1… Read more »
Alithia, I will be doing a video and article on whether Jesus had a pre-existence. I know this is a belief of the Christadelphians and perhaps others, I don’t know. In any case, while Frank gave a brief analysis of John 1:1, I think it unfair to characterize it as the result of eisegesis. I believe a full exegetical analysis of Scripture on the subject of the whether Jesus pre-existed will prove conclusively that he did. However, I’ll leave the details to the video. Any evidence you have that he did not pre-exist will be greatly appreciated as I do… Read more »
Hello Meleti and all. In regards to there being only scant evidence for a pro-non-preexistence of Jesus this can be logically expected if he did not. If Meleti did not have a pre-existence this would also be the case. However, Eric, if you claimed to exist in outer space before life here on Earth then I expect the evidence trail would likely also be scant. Therefore the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate conclusively that you do, and not the other way around, claiming that because your claim cannot be falsified then your claim must likely be… Read more »
Hi Alithia, You wrote: “In regards to there being only scant evidence for a pro-non-preexistence of Jesus this can be logically expected if he did not. If Meleti did not have a pre-existence this would also be the case. However, Eric, if you claimed to exist in outer space before life here on Earth then I expect the evidence trail would likely also be scant.” If I understand the logic here – and correct me if I’m getting this wrong – you’re saying that there is no Scriptural evidence proving Jesus didn’t preexist, and that therefore that should be the… Read more »
Hello Eric and Alithia I agree Alithia, this topic would need a series of articles like the one you mentioned about the Christian hope because it is a very broad subject and there are so many things to consider. I have read a lot about this topic during the last few years because during my Jw years I never fully understood Watchtower’s explanations about Jesus’ nature. I never could understand how before his human life he was Michael the archangel and at the same time a spiritual being and a god named “Word”. I could never really explain this to… Read more »
Thank you Vox Ratio and Nightingale for those valuable links. I’ll investigate them thoroughly.
Hi Meleti,
If you’re really set on going toe-to-toe with this issue, it’s only proper that you’ll want to steel-man the opposing position. Arguably, one of the most erudite protagonists for the view that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth is the Christian philosopher Dr. Dale Tuggy. Although I personally don’t agree with some of Tuggy’s scriptural conclusions, he nevertheless is a precise thinker and a seasoned logician. I think you’ll find that his material likely codifies many of the strongest arguments for the doctrine that you’re currently investigating.
See here for further details.
Hello Vox and everybody else. Vox you are no fun at all! I was soooo looking forward to a “The Philistines are upon you Eric” moment with my rebuttals, and you go and give Eric links to Dale Tuggy!!!! Steel man indeed!!!!! (I was not aware of this expression until now, thanks) Well then, if the intention is just to have a discussion without any ego’s, your wrong I’m right, I’m smart your dumb, humility, open mindedness, and considering the others superior to you, type discussions, then I might just add a couple of more links here if Eric or… Read more »
What is VDO.
I googled it and got:
VDO Video Data Organization
VDO Value-Driven Organization
VDO Varus Derotation Osteotomy
VDO Very Distant Object(s)
VDO Voltage Drop-Out
VDO Virtual Data Object (programming data model)
Helo Eric. I am showing my age!. VCR days. 80s. I simply meant, Youtube whatever they are things? Podcasts?, Blogs? Thingies?
I am only a little more progressed than Jules Vernes in technology. Massive flywheels, leather belt driven gear trains and levers. I still have not fully embraced digital tech as I should.
I emailed you a couple more links around Philippians chapter 2 and John chapter 1 for the ensuing discussions.
Regards to you and all from Alithia.
P.S I still think my Swiss army knife is the “bomb”! I am yet to fully work it out.
Hello Eric. If I am to take your response/request for more information at face value, not second guessing where you may go depending on my response, and without any skepticism or cynicism, I would say you have summarised correctly what you think my point is. However the scriptures abound with chapter after chapter of meticulous explanations of the origins/genealogy of the human Jesus as found in the synoptics, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Peter, Acts, James and other books too. Hundreds of versus that identify the Creator only as Jehovah. Hundreds of versus that identify the “word” of God as God,… Read more »
Dear Alithia, thank you for your response. As to Philippians 2:9-11. Jehovah Himself exalted Jesus to such position, which serves to the glory of Jehovah, so the Jehovah’s glory cannot be jeopardised. In Philippians, the word LORD is used for Jesus, in contrast to Isaiah 42:8, where the God’s name YHWH (Strong Nr. 3068, Interlinear Hebrew text) is used. Therefore the Jesus’ glory does not compete with the glory of God and, on the contrary, Jesus’ new position serves for Jehovah’s glory (Philippians 2:9-11). As to John 1:1-3. I only point out 3 verses that are most important to me… Read more »
Good morning Eric and all, In my bible reading I discovered about Jesus could not be as you said Michael the archangel: Matthew 28: 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Philippians 2:9) For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name Doesn’t a superior position mean a higher one than the one he had in heaven? In the org we have (Publisher, mistrial servant, elder, CO, etc), so a person goes higher… Read more »
Hello James Brown and all. Good question James, but consider this too. What name could be higher than the one he had if he was in Heaven prior to his exultation? He would have had the highest name other than Jehovah, so then how could this be? How could this make any sense without resorting to eisegesis. If his name was superior to angels then he must not have been an angel at least, is that not true? Think about this. I would like to posit Jesus did not have a pre-existence in Heaven to begin with! Then everything else… Read more »
My take is that after his earthly course, Jesus returned o heaven and was, perhaps, granted life within himself. Just a thought.
Hello Chet, “The life within himself” is mentioned in John 5:26. And thanks to this life, IMO, Jesus could tell to Jews what is written in John 5:21 – “For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.” (e.g. Lazarus of Bethany, before Jesus’ resurrection). Jesus eventually died on the cross as Son of MAN (Heb 2:9), but not as mighty Spirit. Jesus, as the Word, is only begotten Son of Jehovah. So I think that Jesus inherited this “life within himself” from the very beginning as characteristic… Read more »
Hello Alithia. I hope I understand your comment as to Philippians 2:9 correctly. IMO, I think Jehovah granted to Jesus the 2nd highest name, right after His Father’s name Jehovah. This name was granted him “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10-11, ESV). So Jesus (as donee) is above all, except His Father (as giver), and Jesus’ position in Heaven serves to the glory of almighty God. So the vertical… Read more »
Hello Frankie I hope Meleti discusses (Philippians chapter 2)this passage in his future presentation.
The context is most important to establish conclusively what is meant by “above every other name”.
When the context is understood the rest is easy. Lets see. Until then Brother/s.
Love to all Alithia.
Hi Eric, i am an fading away jw and always enjoy watching your videos and reading your articles I always wondered, what it means, to sit on the right of god (psalm110:1) As an jw, i believed, Jesus had to sit on the right of god, until 1914, when he began to rule! Then he would cast out the devil from heaven. After your article, I read 1 cor. 15:25: “For he MUST RULE AS KING UNTIL God has put all enemies under his feet” That means for me, Jesus sitting on the right of god after ascending to heaven… Read more »
You’re welcome. Isn’t it great when we free ourselves from the doctrines of men and can just listen to God as he speaks?
Your brother in Christ,
Eric
Hi, Eric. Entire topic is thoroughly elaborated. It is clear that God ousted Satan to Earth and used for this Michael the Archangel and his angels and not Jesus. This is answer to the question “WHO cast down Satan …”. But I’d like to address the question “When ?”. It is apparent that Jesus had been crowned as King of God’ Kingdom after his resurrection and ascension to heaven (Mt 28:18). The Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled – “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” So Jesus rules with all authority. The… Read more »
Hi Frankie,
I’m actually working on some of that, specifically the 1,290 and 1,335 days, for the next video.
Eric
You make a good point about the importance of the truth and correctly knowing, understanding and recognising Jesus as the son of God. The Devil has a great interest in muddying the waters in this regard, to what is mans great detriment. Look at the results. 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world! About a dozen different ideas about the nature of Jesus that has raged for Centuries that has resulted in much blood shed and many tears, not to mention turn many completely away from wanting to know Jesus at all! Many critics even go the point of claiming… Read more »
Very interesting material. Once the props are knocked out from under the 1914 folly, an awful lot of subject matter comes up for review. The fact is; we know only enough to allow us to recognize events as they unfold. As the world becomes evermore depraved, the truth of the Bible stands out in ever greater contrast.
Thanks for your hard work.
Good morning Eric, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for revelling bible truth to me personally. I pulled the scriptures in Revelation 12 & Psalm 110 apart using your logic & you are 100% right. I have been active witness since 1970’s & have never questioned the teaching of WT as I was told I am becoming an apostate, as one elder told me to question WT is to question Jehovah. Eric you came along and say “Please Jamesbrown look at the bible from Gods thinking NOT mans”. I go from house to house… Read more »
James, That’s a tough situation. I was in that same situation myself, no longer drinking the Watchtower’s Kool-Aid, but married to the daughter of an elder. I wish I could give you some sage advice, but all I can suggest is to stick to your convictions. The actual truth of the Bible is a treasure to guard carefully. All I can really offer in the way of solace is that this same process is happening worldwide. Mainstream churches are coming apart at the seams while non-denominational groups of Christians are flourishing. The JW denomination is suffering the same fate. Hopefully,… Read more »
Thanks, JamesBrown. Take heart, the times they are a’changing. It will be hard for your wife not to wake up to the reality that will soon come upon the organization. If there is a good heart there, then God will call it out.
Clear, logical, scriptural. Thanks a lot, Eric. I think, that tenacious defending the false WT teaching is a result of thorough indoctrination concerning the marginalizing of Jesus compared to Jehovah. This indoctrination is very deep and is possibly threatened and the mind of indoctrinated person responds similarly to human body during first stages of detoxification – it is very unpleasant. I wish it would be the beginning of the healing process :o).
And reducing the importance of one beloved person at the expense of another beloved person is particularly despicable – because we love both Jehovah and Jesus.
Love, Frankie
THANKYOU so much Eric for your incredible research on this subject and an explanation to the manipulation of the scriptures by the WT.Because I did not have a lot of knowledge of the Bible and just got frustrated reading it ,I thought the JW teachers knew what they were talking about and it was correct, not WT doctrines, which I started questioning later.You must have God’s Holy Spirit, please keep up the wonderful work and stay well. Sincerely, CW117
I’ll do my best, CW. It takes a lot of time since I’m now doing parallel releases in both English and Spanish.
Very nice coverage Eric.
Thanks, messenger.
Hi I’m Carol-lee from Australia, I would like to thank Eric Wilson very much for you study and research for the truth that is written in the bible. Thank you brother for the truth I grew up as a JW never was baptized but kept going back and forward because I was told all my life it’s the truth. I’m 61 years old and have seen so many doctrines changed over the years and because I question these changes and not excepting me because of my disabilities and because I am a woman and as a child was subjected to… Read more »
Thank you for your sincere expressions, Carol-lee Biggs. By the way, did you know we have an online meeting at 8 AM Sundays with a number of Aussie brothers and sisters. If you would like to join, please email me at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com